Skyfather PYP 2021 RD1: Indominus vs Drax (Open 4 Votes)

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Zetsu-San

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#1  Edited By Zetsu-San  Online

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Characters:

  • SF/FC Darkseid - 10

Perks:

  • Mother/Father Box - 5
  • Choose the Battlefield - 10

@indominus

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@drax5343

Characters:

  • Anti-Spiral - Champion

Perk:

  • Mind/Soul Immunity
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Setting:

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Rules:

  • Characters have basic knowledge on fellow teammates. Full knowledge, if Perfect Teamwork is taken.
  • Marvel/DC are standard. All characters are composite unless stated otherwise.
  • Game Characters with multiple loadouts may choose their loadout before each match.
  • Summons will be handled on a case by case basis.
  • Prep cannot be used to amp characters above what's reasonable for a 10 pointer
  • Victory by Death, KO, or Sealing
  • BFR is not a win condition
  • Supernatural energies are equalized
  • Aim for 3 posts each
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Zetsu-San

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#2 Zetsu-San  Online

@indominus I forgot you had choose the battlefield perk, post an image of where you want this to take place, and I'll put it in the OP.

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maestromage

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taep

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UltraPhoenix

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TAEP

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indominus

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@zetsu-san: battlefield will be the omega sanction

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geekryan

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T4V

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ProfessorRespect

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Tag for every post pls

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indominus

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@drax5343

might as well get started...may the better debater win...

I'm not an expert on Anti-Spiral but from the research I've done on him, I don't think he stands a chance under these conditions to beat this version of Darkseid. Anti-Spiral is OP for sure but he's out of his league in here.

Backstory

When the almighty omnipotent Source (in the form of the Anti-Life Entity) went completely nuts and systematically killed off all the New Gods for Jim Starlin's own twisted pleasure...rather than succumb to his fate, Uxas gave destiny the ultimate middle finger and faced it head-on. He would find the stashed pile of all the dead New God souls and used them to create the soulfire formula.

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Often disregarded and underestimated, the soulfire formula gave Uxas enough power to fight toe-to-toe against the nigh-omnipotent Anti-Life Entity and is more than a match for every other character in this tourney and beyond.

So what is the Soulfire Formula?

According to Uxas himself, every single added New God soul boosts one's power by 10 times. This means 2 added souls would increase one's power by 100 times, 3 added souls would increase one's power by 1,000 times etc...you get the point.

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When Uxas faced the Anti-Life Entity, hundreds of thousands of New Gods were already dead but let's simply lowball this to just 100,000. Even then, this number is far too hard for us to comprehend in our minds...not even Google calculator can keep up with it.

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So in conclusion, the soulfire formula increased Uxas' power by 1(100,000 zeros) times. Crazy isn't it?

So how powerful is base Darkseid?

Now even if Uxas was just as powerful as a human fodder, the soulfire formula is still such a ridiculous amp that it negates whatever lack of power he has at his base.

But just to be clear...this is not base Darkseid...

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...nor is this base Darkseid...

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...but this IS base Darkseid...the true Darkseid

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One thing we know is that Darkseid (in a weakened state) was causing multiversal-wide chaos...

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...this has been further confirmed to have affected even the Monitor Sphere...

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We know during Final Crisis that Darkseid was in a weakened state when Dan Turpin spoke to Batman and revealed he had been wounded in battle by Orion.

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this means even a weakened, dying Darkseid is multiversal in power...there's plenty more I can add but I'll show this much for now...

So how powerful is Soulfire Darkseid overall?

One thing I will be referencing a lot will this DC Map of the Multiverse...the map contains a lot of hidden information most people tend to gloss over.

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...the world from which Darkseid resides is within the Godsphere (outside the DC Multiverse), the Godsphere encompasses the DC Multiverse, the Godsphere is encompassed by the Monitor Sphere...I mentioned earlier that Darkseid's dying was affecting the Monitor Sphere btw...

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Of course, I can always go into the vast array of abilities Darkseid has but that would take too long...a respect thread for a fatherbox has already been made. I won't go into all the details but to summarize, a fatherbox will provide Darkseid the necessary protection so you can't possibly sneak up on him with an unsuspecting attack he has no answer for...becuz the fatherbox is the answer.

In conclusion, if you do the math, you'd find that this version of Darkseid is probably too much for the tourney and by extension Anti-Spiral. Multiversal while still weakened, boosted by fatherbox and further amped by soulfire formula creates a near nigh-omnipotent being I daresay is stronger than HOTU or Astral Regulator Thanos...yeah I said it.

...But wait! It gets even worse...

Remember that I get to choose the battlefield? Well the battlefield I have chosen is within the Omega Sanction...

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The Omega Sanction is a series of parallel universes where the trapped individual is in a series of torturous lives that repeats itself endlessly and results in death...it is a reality specifically created by the true Darkseid which he warps to condemn his enemies.

I am not exaggerating when I say "universes" because creating them is nothing but a favorite hobby even for fodder New Gods.

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Summary

There's more I can add but as Count Dooku once said...

...a wise master never reveals all his secrets at once...

The point is that Anti-Spiral is outclassed here in sheer power...now if there is unknown versatile ability I know nothing about or Uxas has no answer for then by all means show me...though I'm certain the fatherbox has all the answers...for the time being ball is on your side of the court.

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indominus

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ProfessorRespect

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Hmm

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DatStupidGuy

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Tag pls

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Drax5343

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#13  Edited By Drax5343

@indominus: Soulfire Darkseid huh, Great...

Alright, to quote Edward Newgate, Let's Gooo !

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Who is the Anti-Spiral ?

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Well, first and foremost, unlike Soulboy, the Anti-Spiral is an actual canon character. The anti-spiral race was a race of extremely advanced, transcendent beings from the early universe. The anti-spiral is the collective consciousness of the anti-spiral race. Their sole mission is to purge the universe of spiral power which they feel will lead to its destruction. Spiral Power is the main energy of the TTGL verse (not unlike Reishi or Chakra or Ki). The Anti-spiral on the other hand draws his power from extremely advanced technology, being the collective consciousness of a hyper-advanced civilisation.

Enough of that how strong are they ?

Anti-Spiral was able to beat up this guy-

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Yes, those are universes. This large fellow is STTGL. Mr. STTGL contains within himself several super spiral universes. This interview by Gainax clarifies that TTGL has a super spiral universe inside of him- https://web.archive.org/web/20180928165218/https://www.japanator.com/the-secrets-of-gurren-lagann-answered--6714.phtml

STTGL is a super-mech that is made up of several TTGL units.

Now what is a super spiral universe you may ask ? A super spiral universe is an 11-dimensional universe

The wiki further clarifies that super spiral universes are 11 dimensional universes- https://gurrenlagann.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Spiral_Space

Anti-spiral defeated and destroyed this mech in a battle of mutiversal proportions. Clobbered an 11-dimensional being. A being who is what Mr. Mkzypztlk is to a normal person... to Mr Mkzyptlk... 3 times over. Now that is an impressive combat feat.

Who cares how many 0s the number of times SF darkseid is stronger than regular darkseid is. It isn't infinity. And Darkseid's opponent is an 11 dimensional being. An 11 dimensional being is infinitely more powerful than a 10D being, who is infinitely more powerful than a 9D being and so on. Darkseid would have to grow several degrees of infinity to challenge the Anti-spiral.

While their raw power is top-notch. Arguably even more impressive is the Anti-Spiral's hax, the advanced technology of the anti-spiral race allows one to warp the fundamental laws if the universe, including probability itself. Think what Toriko characters can do but on a multiversal scale.

But that's not all

I've chosen mind/soul immunity and general hax immunity for my summons. The anti-spiral fights through its summons, the granzebomas, so my character is pretty much immune to all hax, especially soul-based ones. And even worse, the anti-spiral is the collective consciousness of the anti-spiral race so the only way to really kill them is to kill the anti-spiral race. So Darkseid will have to leave the battlefield and look for the race to permanently kill the Anti-spiral. But even that is not all. Since the anti-spiral is not a being but a collective consciousness of a nigh-omniscient race as old as time, i don't think the fancy universe trap wil have much effect on them. In fact, as confirmed in an interview, the only reason we were able to see the anti-spiral in the anime was because it was reality anomaly, under normal circumstances the anti-spiral cannot be contained inside a universe. it exists beyond the multiverse, beyond space and time, it's an 11-dimensional being after all. Containing it in a 4-dimensional universe is folly.

Summary

While I hate people who say that comic book verses are weaker than anime/manga because TOAA exists, Darkseid is not TOAA. This is one case in which the adage holds true. Darkseid is facing off against a 11-dimensional nigh-omnipotent god. He's outgunned here.

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Drax5343

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#14  Edited By Drax5343
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lowlaville

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Interesting read. TAEP and T4V

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Kingant27

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T4V

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Laskt

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#17  Edited By Laskt

This match is.....slightly more powerful than the others. TAEP

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indominus

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#18  Edited By indominus

@drax5343 time for a rebuttal

Size Matters

STTGL is ginormous no doubt but you must know that true form darkseid is much bigger...

Yes, those are universes. This large fellow is STTGL. Mr. STTGL contains within himself several super spiral universes. This interview by Gainax clarifies that TTGL has a super spiral universe inside of him- https://web.archive.org/web/20180928165218/https://www.japanator.com/the-secrets-of-gurren-lagann-answered--6714.phtml

STTGL is a super-mech that is made up of several TTGL units.

...his true size is so massive his shadow covers the entire dc multiverse...

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this is further solidified by orion who explains regular universes as mere bubbles compared to them

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when the old god sivaa tore a hole in reality, it exposed all the universes in the dc multiverse for superman to see and he too saw them as bubbles (this is an insane size difference)

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in many ways...I think it's fair to say darkseid dwarfs STTGL in size

Dissecting your Dimensional Tiering

Now what is a super spiral universe you may ask ? A super spiral universe is an 11-dimensional universe

The wiki further clarifies that super spiral universes are 11 dimensional universes- https://gurrenlagann.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Spiral_Space

ah yes but so is a regular universe from the dc multiverse. it too contains 11 dimensions.

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Anti-spiral defeated and destroyed this mech in a battle of mutiversal proportions. Clobbered an 11-dimensional being. A being who is what Mr. Mkzypztlk is to a normal person... to Mr Mkzyptlk... 3 times over. Now that is an impressive combat feat.

Who cares how many 0s the number of times SF darkseid is stronger than regular darkseid is. It isn't infinity. And Darkseid's opponent is an 11 dimensional being. An 11 dimensional being is infinitely more powerful than a 10D being, who is infinitely more powerful than a 9D being and so on. Darkseid would have to grow several degrees of infinity to challenge the Anti-spiral.

the problem here is that your dimensional tiering/scaling is rather misleading. the 11 dimensions of a super spiral universe you refer to are spatial dimensions not higher dimensions...therefore STTGL and anti-spiral are not as strong as you think they are.

as I've outlined previously, regular dc universes have 11 spatial dimensions too and all godsphere inhabitants (including darkseid) exist beyond them.

Your Hax vs My Hax

And even worse, the anti-spiral is the collective consciousness of the anti-spiral race so the only way to really kill them is to kill the anti-spiral race.

if you want to play it that way...it'll be hard pressed for anti-spiral to kill darkseid because not even the spectre could do it despite channeling the logoz through him. it's been shown several times, no matter what you do to destroy the host body, the spirit of the true darkseid lives on due to his platonic nature

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So Darkseid will have to leave the battlefield and look for the race to permanently kill the Anti-spiral. But even that is not all. Since the anti-spiral is not a being but a collective consciousness of a nigh-omniscient race as old as time, i don't think the fancy universe trap wil have much effect on them.

it's not really a universe trap but more so a reality that darkseid himself warps. think freddy krueger's dreamworld but on a gazillion steroids. under other circumstances I can see you making a case for anti-spiral but under these conditions, this fight is more akin to a lion vs a shark in the middle of the ocean, captain america vs aquaman in the middle of the ocean where aquaman controls the ocean.

anti-spiral would literally be powerless in the omega sanction where darkseid would be at his most powerful.

While their raw power is top-notch. Arguably even more impressive is the Anti-Spiral's hax, the advanced technology of the anti-spiral race allows one to warp the fundamental laws if the universe, including probability itself. Think what Toriko characters can do but on a multiversal scale.

soulfire darkseid can do the same too. heck he did it while in a weakened state, the amount of multiversal damage a dying darkseid was causing shook everyone in the dc multiverse to their core

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spacetime across the multiverse was being smashed due to his fall. basically warping reality after his body displaces the multiverse.

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other feats include depowering heroes and villains in his presence alone. many of whom got their powers from the godsphere too. becomes everything and creating a singularity that was swallowing the multiverse

the dc multiverse itself was damaged in final crisis btw so there's more confirmation a weakened true form darkseid is multiversal.

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if soulfire darkseid wanted to defeat anti-spiral he could simply depower him in the omega sanction and proceed to toy with him endlessly. after all he could fight toe-to-toe with the anti-life entity

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the battle itself tore right down to the bleed. the bleed itself is the membrane space between universes in the dc multiverse. even the anti-life entity was surprised by soulfire darkseid's power...this is the same anti-life entity that had killed off all the other new gods btw

In fact, as confirmed in an interview, the only reason we were able to see the anti-spiral in the anime was because it was reality anomaly, under normal circumstances the anti-spiral cannot be contained inside a universe. it exists beyond the multiverse, beyond space and time, it's an 11-dimensional being after all.

the same can be said about darkseid as well. an interview by grant morrison describes every single appearance of the new gods is just a projection, not their true form.

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Containing it in a 4-dimensional universe is folly.

the dc godsphere is not a spatial 4 dimensional universe btw. it's far beyond that

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Summary

  • super spiral universes and regular dc universes both have 11 spatial dimensions
  • true form darkseid is bigger than STTGL and anti-spiral
  • true form darkseid is stronger than STTGL and anti-spiral through proper dimensional scaling
  • true form darkseid exists platonically and can not be destroyed even by anti-spiral
  • anti-spiral is powerless in the omega sanction. a reality which darkseid fully controls
  • soulfire darkseid fought against a much stronger opponent and held his own

ball is back on your side of the court

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indominus

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#21  Edited By Drax5343

@indominus

Dimensions dimensions everywhere !

You brought up that scan from the Imperiex storyline about the DC universe being 11-dimensional. But the fact is apart from that one issue, DC universes have virtually never been portrayed as infinite dimensional.

Enter these 2 gentlemen-

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Mr. Mxzyptlk and Bat-Mite are almost universally portaryed as 5-dimensional beings. That's their whole character, that they are 5-dimensional beings. If the DC universe were really 11-dimensional then they would not even be universal yet in fact they have conistently been portrayed as multiversal powers. Look at World's funniest, look at the Emperor Joker storyline- https://imgur.com/a/fceNW

https://imgur.com/a/ExW84 - Mxy easily destroys the entirety of the DC multiverse and does it much more impressively than Darkseid.

Here's Mxy holding the multiverse in his hand- https://i.imgur.com/C2gUppf.jpg

In fact your boy Darkseid and his new gods are portrayed as no match whatsoever to 5D imps- https://imgur.com/a/Xg5JB (If this is what 5D imps can do what could an 11D God do ?)

Completely destroying the DC multiverse is consistently portrayed as a feat even a 5 Dimensional being can do.

This is what happened when a being who is infinite x infinite x infinite x infinite x infinite x infinite times as powerful as Mxy tried to fight Anti-Spiral

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That tiny disembodied head belonged to someone who could destroy the DC multiverse with an infinitieth of an infinitieth of an infinitieth of an infinitieth of an infinitieth of an infinitieth of his power.

Destroying the DC multiverse is nothing impressive at all if a character as weak as Mr. Mxzyptlk could do it. The multiverse is clearly 5 dimensional at best. The idea that individual DC universes are 11-dimensional is laughable considering it has never been mentioned before or since that imperiex comic. And Imperiex is a being that is unquestionably weaker than Mxyzptlk so arguing him as an 11D being is madness.

Mr Mxyzptlk himself has the final say on the matter-

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The DC multiverse, god spheres and all exists in only 4 dimensions and is little more than a toy in the hands of a 5-dimensional being let alone an 11-dimensional being.

You brought up Gurenn Lagenn dimensions as being spatial dimensions not higher dimensions yet look again at my scans- the words that are used is that the super spiral universes exist "in between" the 10th and 11th dimensions- it is clearly referring to higher dimensions not spatial dimensions.

The Death of canon

But you must be saying... "SF Darkseid fought the source who is basically an omnipotent all-powerful being !". Tell me then... isn't its surprising then that someone like Darkseid with a finite power multiplier could defeat him ?

The whole death of the new gods series is non-canon, as stated by Grant Morrisson himself- [Humorously enough, Grant reconciled this horrible lead-in to his story by positioning both Starlin's Death of the New Gods conclusion and the final issue of Countdown to Final Crisis as apocryphal versions of the same unseen story. Morrison also subtlety implied that the conflicting tales could be the result of the Monitors' interference mucking up the entire Cosmic Multiverse (a damning commentary if I ever heard one...).

The whole death of new gods arc has no connection whatsoever with DC cosmology and powerscaling. The source in this series is depicted as universal if even that. The anti-life entity you refer to was threatened by Etrigan of all people and the Source was defeated years ago by some random new gods. The source in this issue is clearly not the omnipotent all-powerful source that is normally seen in DC comics, in feats or portrayal or even personality. In fact it is not even skyfather level. This version of the source is not even shown as powerful enough to destroy a universe by itself, needing help to destroy the fourth world. It would be better to use the 10 the power whatever argument than try to scale Darkseid to this walmart source.

Conclusion-

DC universes are not 11-dimensional, Darkseid is 4 or 5 dimensional at best

Gurenn Lagenn universes do refer to higher dimensions not spatial dimensions

The source from the Death of the New Gods story is not nearly as powerful as the regular source

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Drax5343

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indominus

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@drax5343: final post

Quick Point of Clarification

when I use the term "dimensions" in "higher dimensions" I am referring to planes of existence, not geometric constructions in "spatial dimensions". there's a big difference.

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Further Dimensional Tiering

You brought up that scan from the Imperiex storyline about the DC universe being 11-dimensional. But the fact is apart from that one issue, DC universes have virtually never been portrayed as infinite dimensional.

well actually...they have. 11 spatial dimensions is just a baseline. there are plenty of larger numbers such as

Mr. Mxzyptlk and Bat-Mite are almost universally portaryed as 5-dimensional beings. That's their whole character, that they are 5-dimensional beings. If the DC universe were really 11-dimensional then they would not even be universal yet in fact they have conistently been portrayed as multiversal powers.

a single dc universe has nothing to do with the godsphere and beyond. you're still conflating spatial dimensions with higher dimensions or higher planes of existence. each higher realm has innumerable spatial dimensions as well. please refer to this map again and see that the godsphere is above and beyond a single dc universe.

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furthermore, darkseid and the new gods are self-aware living ideas. good luck trying to destroy that when not even the spectre channeling the logoz could do it. any proof anti-spiral can deal with such an entity?

Completely destroying the DC multiverse is consistently portrayed as a feat even a 5 Dimensional being can do.

a weakened dying darkseid was doing the same thing. given the vast size of the fourth world, the dc multiverse might as well be a needle in a haystack

too bad the same can't be said about anti-spiral.

More Size Matters

Destroying the DC multiverse is nothing impressive at all if a character as weak as Mr. Mxzyptlk could do it.

more impressive than destroying STTGL. allow me to explain...also refer to the previous post on Size Matters

according to the wiki from where you get your information...the maximum size for STTGL is only 20 trillion light years.

this is laughably small compared to a single dc universe which may be 100 trillion light years wide at a bare minimum

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I say bare minimum because even then, since the beginning of the birth of a single dc universe, the big bang expanded 60 trillion light years in 0.5 seconds

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60 trillion light years in 0.5 seconds is equal to 120 trillion light years in 1 full second. I'm not going to do the math for it but if you were to do this for 10 billion years (age of the dc universe) this would put the 100 trillion light years (and by extension STTGL) to shame.

this means the maximum size of STTGL is smaller than the minimum size for a singular dc universe

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by comparison, the size of true darkseid is equivalent to the size of the dc multiverse

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by extension, this puts true darkseid's size compared to that of STTGL and anti-spiral to shame

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The multiverse is clearly 5 dimensional at best.

no it exists on a 3rd dimensional plane of existence while containing innumerable spatial dimensions

The idea that individual DC universes are 11-dimensional is laughable considering it has never been mentioned before or since that imperiex comic.

actually it has. refer to the top of this post on Further Dimensional Tiering

The DC multiverse, god spheres and all exists in only 4 dimensions and is little more than a toy in the hands of a 5-dimensional being let alone an 11-dimensional being.

too bad this 11-dimensional being (spatially) is only multiversal within a significantly smaller multiverse. STTGL and anti-spiral might as well be a big fish in a small pond

You brought up Gurenn Lagenn dimensions as being spatial dimensions not higher dimensions yet look again at my scans- the words that are used is that the super spiral universes exist "in between" the 10th and 11th dimensions- it is clearly referring to higher dimensions not spatial dimensions.

"in between" doesn't prove anything. you can exist between spatial dimensions just like between neighboring universes or neighboring timelines

the super spiral universes are not some outside higher realm compared to regular universes. they exist on the same plane as regular universes...even then super spiral universes aren't anything special tbh

Debating Canon and Power

But you must be saying... "SF Darkseid fought the source who is basically an omnipotent all-powerful being !". Tell me then... isn't its surprising then that someone like Darkseid with a finite power multiplier could defeat him ?

never said he was omnipotent, nor did I refer to it as the original source. I referred to it as the anti-life entity.

The whole death of the new gods series is non-canon, as stated by Grant Morrisson himself- [Humorously enough, Grant reconciled this horrible lead-in to his story by positioning both Starlin's Death of the New Gods conclusion and the final issue of Countdown to Final Crisis as apocryphal versions of the same unseen story. Morrison also subtlety implied that the conflicting tales could be the result of the Monitors' interference mucking up the entire Cosmic Multiverse (a damning commentary if I ever heard one...).

doesn't matter if it's non-canon or not. this is the version I'm allowed to use in the tourney

The whole death of new gods arc has no connection whatsoever with DC cosmology and powerscaling.

again it doesn't matter.

The source in this series is depicted as universal if even that.

slayed all the new gods and having fights take place in a higher realm that makes the dc multiverse look like a germ in comparison if you carefully inspect the dc cosmology map. but sure, it's not even multiversal when it clearly is.

wonder woman even refers to gods (beings who exist in the godsphere) as being universal at minimum let alone a being that surpasses them all

The anti-life entity you refer to was threatened by Etrigan of all people

etrigan wasn't in that storyline unless you're referring to cosmic odyssey where the anti-life entity was actually threatening the fourth world (a realm in the godsphere that dwarfs the dc multiverse btw) such that dr fate had to recruit 4 other members to destroy the anti-life dark dimension (another realm in godsphere that also dwarfs the dc multiverse btw)

and the Source was defeated years ago by some random new gods.

not exactly random if you understand how the dc cosmological godsphere works. a god/godsphere inhabitant is automatically universal, being skyfather level in the godsphere is extremely high multiversal...even then the "source" wasn't defeated. it didn't even fight back. it was split by ritual not by raw power.

The source in this issue is clearly not the omnipotent all-powerful source that is normally seen in DC comics, in feats or portrayal or even personality.

no kidding. the real source is meant to be omnipotent. not that it matters because it's still incredibly powerful

In fact it is not even skyfather level.

slays an entire race of universals but apparently not skyfather level? please read the dc map carefully and try to understand it

This version of the source is not even shown as powerful enough to destroy a universe by itself, needing help to destroy the fourth world.

what universe? your puny super spiral universe that is beneath a singular dc universe which is beneath the dc multiverse which is beneath the fourth world?

It would be better to use the 10 the power whatever argument than try to scale Darkseid to this walmart source.

the fact darkseid needed to increase his power by...

No Caption Provided

...times should let you know how powerful the anti-life entity really is.

speaking of power there are very rare instances where darkseid's raw power is fully displayed. the anti-life dark dimension was destroyed by a combined effort of dr fate channeling the raw powers of herself, orion, highfather, etrigan and darkseid

even if you lowball this tremendously darkseid still ends up contribution 20% of that power (even if it's all his power) to destroy that anti-life dark dimension.

now add on to the fact that the fight takes place in the omega sanction where anti-spiral would be powerless to do anything plus soulfire darkseid having the soulfire amp...anti-spiral literally has no chance in this battle whatsoever

Summary

  • super spiral universes are nothing special compared to regular dc universes let alone the godsphere. they are not higher realms and do not eclipse dc cosmology as a whole
  • size of true darkseid = size of dc multiverse >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maximum size of dc universe >>>> 100 trillion light years minimum size of dc universe > 20 trillion light years maximum size of STTGL = size of anti-spiral
  • 20% of anti-life dark dimension = power of true darkseid >>>>>>>>>>>> weakened darkseid >>> dc multiverse >>>>>>>>> dc universe > power of anti-spiral >= power of STTGL
  • soulfire darkseid in omega sanction >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anti-spiral
  • entire dc cosmology >>>>>>> dc monitor sphere > dc godsphere > fourth world > dc multiverse >>>>>>> dc universe >>> STTGL cosmology
  • canonicity doesn't matter here when I'm actually allowed to use the soulfire version of darkseid

For the Voters

  • I have shown a significantly insane size difference between anti-spiral, STTGL and true form darkseid through facts and math
  • I have shown where a weakened darkseid being multiversal in power within a significantly larger multiverse and even affecting the monitor sphere whereas STTGL and anti-spiral are only multiversal within a significantly smaller multiverse
  • I have shown the difference in darkseid versions, the nature of the godsphere and how to read and understand the dc map properly
  • I have demonstrated the platonic archetypal nature of true darkseid and why nothing anti-spiral has in his arsenal can put darkseid down
  • I have demonstrated STTGL and anti-spiral as being big fishes in a small pond especially considering the battlefield
  • my opponent insists that his "spatial dimensions" are actually higher realms. even if they are "higher realms" they are still incredibly small and insignificant within a singular dc universe much less an entire dc multiverse.
  • my opponent's reasons for anti-spiral winning more or less depends on this dimensional tiering argument even though its flawed, misleading and tends to favor me even more...yes true darkseid beats anti-spiral even in dimensional tiering
  • please note that the fight takes place in the omega sanction, a reality which true darkseid controls completely
  • I could go into way more depth on the nature of the godsphere but for now I'm comfortable with what's been shown
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UltraPhoenix

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#25  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@indominus: A lot of your links don't actually display the images for some reason, like in the Dimensional Tiering section.

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@indominus: A lot of your links don't actually display the images, like in the Dimensional Tiering section.

They work for me.

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#30  Edited By UltraPhoenix

@lowlaville: Maybe it loads on mobile but not PC, hopefully others can check to see if it loads or not. It does load on incognito tabs however, maybe something to do with cookies.

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@ultraphoenix: Anyways, deleted it cuz I just realized the screenshot had my wife in it. lol

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#33  Edited By Drax5343

@indominus:

Final post for me too

SIZE INSECURITY

Firstly, I don't know why you're dedicating so much of your posts to talking about Darkseid's size. There are characters the size of normal humans who'd stomp both Darkseid and the Anti-spiral. Though Anti-spiral's drill is much bigger than he is physically which your diagram fails to acknowledge.

MULTI-DIMENSIONALITY

As my opponent agrees the version of the source from the death of the new gods does not scale to the regular source. So the main way of scaling Darkseid comes from the general power level of the new gods, and god-sphere entities. Entities which are portrayed as below the 5-dimensional Mr. Mxyzptlk. My opponent has done us the service of simplifying the question- Are Gurenn Lagenn verse dimensions, higher dimensions or merely spatial dimensions ?

Gurenn Lagenn cosmology is based on Brane comsology and M-Theory

Perhaps the best way to understand higher dimensions in this context is these videos- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkxieS-6WuA and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySBaYMESb8o

10-dimensions in this context is a truly unimaginable number of universes that positively dwarfs the DC multiverse (at least as it is known to beings like the new gods, the multiverse as it is known to the Endless and Lucy and Mikey is a different story)

An interesting statement that Lordgenome makes is that the anti-spiral is 'breaking through' the membranes of higher dimensions. This furthers the idea that dimensions in the GL verse are like membranes stacked around each other. A hierarchy if you will. What does this remind you of ? The DC multiverse and the diagram my opponent has shown you. Isn't that a series of membranes ? Exactly, but the dc multiverse is only about 4 or 5 membranes, encircling each other, while the gurenn lagenn multiverses are 10. And the Anti-spiral had the power to affect every single possible multiverse. He existed above it, in extradimensional space.

The GL verse follows M-theory so higher dimensions in it, really are higher dimensions in that they transcend lower levels of existence. Higher dimensions in the Godsphere/Mzyktlpk sense, not the spatial dimensions of a singular universe sense. Even a point in the 10th dimension contains all possible timelines of all possible universes. The traditional DC multiverse is only various possible timelines of one DC universe. That's why most universes in the DC multiverse have the same characters. There's an earth and a JLA and a superman in pretty much all of them. That's because the regular DC multiverse is merely the list of all possible timelines of a single universe. Whenever there is a divergence in a point of history in this universe, a new alternate universe is created in this multiverse. 'Crisis of Infinite Earths', this is an interesting word. Each of the infinite universes that Darkseid was affecting had an earth. The multiverses that people like Darkseid and Mxy destroy are merely alternate timelines of the same universe, starting from the same big bang, with the same laws of physics and gravity and similar rules. They are not at all comparable to the DC multiverse as it exists for beings like the Endless and Mikey and Lucey.

The Anti-spiral has the power to affect all possible multiverses, not just one mutiverse like Darkseid. There are types of multiverses and you must understand the difference between them. 1. the multiverse that is merely all possible timelines of one universe and 2. the multiverse that is all possible timelines of all possible universes, aka all possible multiverses.

A 4-dimensional construct like the local DC multiverse is an infinitesimal thing to an 11-dimensional being like the Anti-spiral. They transcend all possible multiverses.

Do you think Darkseid's Omega Sanction is cool ? Well the Anti-spiral literally has a version of that called the Infinite Multiverse Labyrinth- which is basically the same thing but with multiverses instead of universes. It's an infinite number of Omega Sanctions chained together and they threw each member of Team Dai-Gurenn into their own individual omega sanction. The fact you're having this fight in an Omega Sanction is laughable and I can imagine the Anti-spiral finding some humour in how pathetic it is.

https://imgur.com/xwhxMsC The green lined paragaph has the statement saying the Anti-spiral has command over every possible multiverse.

And they themself exists above this 10-dimensional construct.

No Caption Provided

Here is Yoko throughout the multiverse. By which I mean in every possible timeline of her universe. But there are an infinite number of such universes, each of them completely unique and different, each of which has an infinite number of possible timelines.

No Caption Provided

Each of these points is a universe and the lines emanating from it are alternate timelines, alternate universes, thus constituting a multiverse and there are an infinite number of such multiverses and the Anti-spiral transcends them all. Being on a higher plane of existence entirely.

Conclusion-

Dimensions in the Gurenn Lagenn verse do indeed constitute higher dimensions and not just spatial dimensions. Gurenn Lagenn is built on real world quantum physics and M theory.

The Anti-spiral is multiversal on a completely different scale compared to someone like Darkseid. The multiverse that Darkseid can destroy is merely all possible timelines of a single universe, insignificant indeed to all possible timelines of all possible universes, which is what the multiverse is to the Anti-spiral and which they are infinitely above.

For the Voters-

My opponent has wasted a lot of time talking about size as if it is at all relevant.

Scaling SF Darkseid to the Source is pointless as that version of the source is not at all comparable to the genuine article AS MY OPPONENT HIMSELF AGREES and furthermore if SF DS was really comparable to that source then he'd be too strong for this tournament anyway.

My opponent has kept sharing this picture of 10 the power of 1000 being infinity. This is not at all true. I am not sure whether he is just sharing a meme to bring humour into this debate or whether he actually believes it but let me assure you 10 to the power 1000 is merely 1 followed by a thousand zeroes. It is still infinitely below infinity. And is no closer to infinity than 1 or 0.- followed by a thousand zeros than one. It is still a finite number. In fact there are MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger finite numbers, such as a googolplex, which is 10 the power 1 followed by 100 zeroes. Which makes 10 the power 1000 seem very tiny indeed. And even a googolplex is still infinitely below infinity. Darkseid can eat googolpexes and googolplexes of new god souls and they won't do him any good against the Anti-spiral.

Darkseid and new gods like him are at the end of the day, insignificant even compared to a 5D being like Mr. Mzxyptzlk, let alone an 11 dimensional being like the Anti-spiral

I have proven that dimensions in GL-verse are in fact higher dimensions, not merely spatial dimensions like my opponent argued.

I have shown the Anti-spiral is multiversal on a completely different level compared to beings like Darkseid and Mr. Mxzyptlk. The multiverse for them is merely all possible timelines of one universe, while for AS, it is all possible timelines of all possible universes. Indeed one way to put it is that AS transcends all possible multiverses. A multiverse made up of infinite universes is nice but transcending an infinite number of such multiverses is much nicer, don't you think ? One is barely multiversal and the other is truly multiversal, no infinitely beyond that.

When Darkseid or Mxy destroy the 'multiverse' they do not affect the realms of the Endless or heaven or hell. They merely destroy all possible timelines of their one universe.

4-dimensional multiverses like the local dc multiverse is insignificance personified for an entity like AS.

The Omega Sanction will have an effect on AS. In fact, Darkseid's sole wincon is if seeing it makes AS die of laughter. Compared to his infinite multiverse labyrinth, it is pathetic indeed and AS transcends even that toy insignificantly. They could never possibly be contained within the omega sanction, heck they cannot even be contained within the 10-dimensional Gurenn Lagenn multiverse which they transcend infinitely.

Also my opponent has failed to use the following photo of darkseid at the end of his closing post, so I will use it for him

No Caption Provided

....Not

Instead, it belongs to-

No Caption Provided

The Anti-Spiral !!!

@professorrespect: @geekryan: @maestromage: @ultraphoenix:

@datstupidguy: @zetsu-san@lowlaville@kingant27@laskt

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lowlaville

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After reading the posts and arguments, I have little doubt that @indominus wins the majority. His first post wasn't nearly as strong as Drax, but from the second post on wards, the quality of the arguments he presented and the why of why Darkseid wins went unquestioned.

Both did a splendid job, but I fear Drax's 'size insecurity' argument hammers the nail in his coffin because listen to me, both of you were banking on the size argument. Why are you going back on it this late in the game? To me, that was a let down.

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Drax5343

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@lowlaville: I was never banking on the size argument. In fact I only made one mention of how big STTGL was in passing.

Again thank it’s irrelevant to the topic. The physical size of the characters has little bearing on who’s stronger or who’d win a fight. It’s a pointless thing to discuss.

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lowlaville

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@drax5343 said:

@lowlaville: I was never banking on the size argument. In fact I only made one mention of how big STTGL was in passing.

Again thank it’s irrelevant to the topic. The physical size of the characters has little bearing on who’s stronger or who’d win a fight. It’s a pointless thing to discuss.

You say in passing, but that was your argument for an entire post.

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Drax5343

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#37  Edited By Drax5343

@lowlaville: Which post ? I don’t remember arguing for STTGL’s size.

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Drax5343

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@lowlaville: What do you mean by size ? The physical size of their bodies or the discussion about dimensions ?

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@drax5343: it's the same pivotal points of the size argument

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#41  Edited By geekryan

@lowlaville said:

After reading the posts and arguments, I have little doubt that @indominus wins the majority. His first post wasn't nearly as strong as Drax, but from the second post on wards, the quality of the arguments he presented and the why of why Darkseid wins went unquestioned.

Both did a splendid job, but I fear Drax's 'size insecurity' argument hammers the nail in his coffin because listen to me, both of you were banking on the size argument. Why are you going back on it this late in the game? To me, that was a let down.

To be honest, this entire debate was kind of a big mess of numbers, dimensions, scaling, and statements. It felt like a "My dad can beat up your dad" argument with each side trying to one-up the other.

This also went far, far, beyond a Skyfather-level tournament.

EDIT: On second thought, I'd like my vote to count as a -1 for both debaters. @zetsu-san

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Zetsu-San

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#42 Zetsu-San  Online

@princesscadenza Imagine if we were up against this guy, during the Dormammu & Laharl vs Galactus & Anti-Spiral CaV. lol

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#43  Edited By ProfessorRespect  Online

This debate sucks. Both of you literally only focused on "my dude is bigger tho" and nothing else, despite size being one of the least important factors here: there's some SMALL focus on power here and there but the main problem is that you confuse size = power and you don't challenge that. Indominus does some terrible scaling based on dodgy math and scaling from a Source that was showcased by Jim Starlin to be completely useless on a major scale, and trying to scale fodder New Gods to universal. He also scales New Genesis to be massive despite the fact that it's supposed to be regular sized if we go off Starlin's origins for the planet. It isn't even consistent considering regular guys have visited there without a Boom Tube and not been shrunk to ants.

He tries to scale from Grant Morrison statements despite Grant having almost no influence on the cosmology beyond Final Crisis: he got ignored afterwards anyway. Indominus's main argument was that Darkseid was really big and that was enough. Him falling through things while dying is a feat as well for some reason: ignore him dying to specific sounds or Black Racer smacking into him.

Drax's argument was "no I'm bigger" and his proof was outside sources and youtube videos. Rather than not being dragged down by the size argument he doubled down on it and started yelling stuff about M-theory and saying his whole cosmology was better because it was bigger, and because it was bigger it was better. You can see the problem.

All in all, I'm not giving either of you a vote, because both of your argumentations were wrong and I wouldn't in good conscience be happy if I did say someone did it better, because you both made the same mistakes. My interest in this debate went from a 10 all the way to a guy on Morphine's level of concentration.

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geekryan

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This debate sucks. Both of you literally only focused on "my dude is bigger tho" and nothing else, despite size being one of the least important factors here: there's some SMALL focus on power here and there but the main problem is that you confuse size = power and you don't challenge that. Indominus does some terrible scaling based on dodgy math and scaling from a Source that was showcased by Jim Starlin to be completely useless on a major scale, and trying to scale fodder New Gods to universal. He also scales New Genesis to be massive despite the fact that it's supposed to be regular sized if we go off Starlin's origins for the planet. It isn't even consistent considering regular guys have visited there without a Boom Tube and not been shrunk to ants.

He tries to scale from Grant Morrison statements despite Grant having almost no influence on the cosmology beyond Final Crisis: he got ignored afterwards anyway. Indominus's main argument was that Darkseid was really big and that was enough. Him falling through things while dying is a feat as well for some reason: ignore him dying to specific sounds or Black Racer smacking into him.

Drax's argument was "no I'm bigger" and his proof was outside sources and youtube videos. Rather than not being dragged down by the size argument he doubled down on it and started yelling stuff about M-theory and saying his whole cosmology was better because it was bigger, and because it was bigger it was better. You can see the problem.

All in all, I'm not giving either of you a vote, because both of your argumentations were wrong and I wouldn't in good conscience be happy if I did say someone did it better, because you both made the same mistakes. My interest in this debate went from a 10 all the way to a guy on Morphine's level of concentration.

LMAO

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Drax5343

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@geekryan said:

This also went far, far, beyond a Skyfather-level tournament.

I wouldn't say that, skyfathers have been doing some crazy things lately.

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geekryan

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@drax5343 said:
@geekryan said:

This also went far, far, beyond a Skyfather-level tournament.

I wouldn't say that, skyfathers have been doing some crazy things lately.

Yeah, because skyfathers tend to be anywhere between 5D and 11D in power..........

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Drax5343

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@geekryan: Didn’t Old King Thor destroy most of the marvel multiverse last year ? That’s better than 11D

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ProfessorRespect

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#48  Edited By ProfessorRespect  Online

@drax5343 said:

@geekryan: Didn’t Old King Thor destroy most of the marvel multiverse last year ? That’s better than 11D

No he busted the Necroverse, which was created out of the remains of a dead universe. Aaron (apparently) said the battle WAS Multiversal in scale (I.E. it effected other universes) but it didn't bust anything beyond a universe already ripped apart by entropy. That was peak OKT as well, not the one dying to Gorr fodder for hundreds of years.

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BalgoParks

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This debate sucks. Both of you literally only focused on "my dude is bigger tho" and nothing else, despite size being one of the least important factors here: there's some SMALL focus on power here and there but the main problem is that you confuse size = power and you don't challenge that. Indominus does some terrible scaling based on dodgy math and scaling from a Source that was showcased by Jim Starlin to be completely useless on a major scale, and trying to scale fodder New Gods to universal. He also scales New Genesis to be massive despite the fact that it's supposed to be regular sized if we go off Starlin's origins for the planet. It isn't even consistent considering regular guys have visited there without a Boom Tube and not been shrunk to ants.

He tries to scale from Grant Morrison statements despite Grant having almost no influence on the cosmology beyond Final Crisis: he got ignored afterwards anyway. Indominus's main argument was that Darkseid was really big and that was enough. Him falling through things while dying is a feat as well for some reason: ignore him dying to specific sounds or Black Racer smacking into him.

Drax's argument was "no I'm bigger" and his proof was outside sources and youtube videos. Rather than not being dragged down by the size argument he doubled down on it and started yelling stuff about M-theory and saying his whole cosmology was better because it was bigger, and because it was bigger it was better. You can see the problem.

All in all, I'm not giving either of you a vote, because both of your arguments were wrong and I wouldn't in good conscience be happy if I did say someone did it better, because you both made the same mistakes. My interest in this debate went from a 10 all the way to a guy on Morphine's level of concentration.

After reading the thread, I have to agree with this. The majority of the "fight", if you can even call this that, wasn't even based on actual combat. Reading through this debate, all I see are meaningless numbers, faulty scaling, and some weird obsession with "My guy is bigger than X!" or "Look at all these universes I can number!" and other such examples. Like, we get it, they're incomprehensibly large even compared to the confines of the multi-verses they reside in - can we move on?

Really, this is pretty disappointing. I was expecting a fight, but instead, I feel like I walked into some old DBZ power-scaling non-sense. Hopefully, moving forward, both parties can concentrate less on ambiguous numbers and the concept of "infinity" and focus more on, well, an actual fight.

That said, can we vote for both of them to lose? @zetsu-san

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What is this shit? Indominus was basically using his own fan-faction character because most of the feats and scaling he used for Darkseid are complete lies and disregarded the writing entirely.

Drax wins on principle, because he actually fairly pointed out how Indominus was pulling stuff out of his ass and using non-canon writing, and then Indominus literally answered "doesn't matter". LOL

My vote goes for @drax5343.