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Posted by Gilateen (3734 posts) 1 month, 1 day ago

Poll: Six Paths Madara vs Muken Aizen (56 votes)

SOSP Madara 71%
TYBW Aizen 23%
Stalemate 4%
  • In Character
  • Six Paths Madara(Post Shinju Tree)
  • Aizen is not in Chair
  • Starting distance: 110ft
  • No Knowledge/Prep
  • Location: Shinobi War Battlefield
  • Win By Any Means
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VS

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#151 Posted by Undre (3290 posts) - - Show Bio

@kalebsmarty156: by logic aizen can touch then because he uses natural energy not god tree chakra

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#152 Posted by Kalebsmarty156 (1474 posts) - - Show Bio
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#153 Edited by Undre (3290 posts) - - Show Bio
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#154 Edited by Kalebsmarty156 (1474 posts) - - Show Bio

@undre: prove aizen uses nature energy. I want scans...get to work now :)

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#155 Edited by Undre (3290 posts) - - Show Bio
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@kalebsmarty156:There is also a certain amount of Reishi in the Human World. Free Reishi tends to be found in places closer to nature. Quincy collect this Reishi to use for combat in the form of Spirit Weapons.[4] Reishi in the atmosphere is also able to be controlled freely, allowing a person to gather it under their feet so that they can stand on air.[5]

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#156 Posted by Kalebsmarty156 (1474 posts) - - Show Bio

@undre said:
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@kalebsmarty156:There is also a certain amount of Reishi in the Human World. Free Reishi tends to be found in places closer to nature. Quincy collect this Reishi to use for combat in the form of Spirit Weapons.[4] Reishi in the atmosphere is also able to be controlled freely, allowing a person to gather it under their feet so that they can stand on air.[5]

Wat? Aizen not a quincy. So he doesn't Asorb spiritual energy from the air.

Lol nice try tho.

My point still stands.

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#157 Edited by Undre (3290 posts) - - Show Bio

@kalebsmarty15stuff lol dued reshi and spirit energy are made of the same stuff

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#158 Posted by Kalebsmarty156 (1474 posts) - - Show Bio
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#159 Edited by Kalebsmarty156 (1474 posts) - - Show Bio

@undre: I still want the scans, but I would look at it tomorrow.

Good night :)

Edit: I'll stay up for another hr.

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#160 Posted by ManimalMan (818 posts) - - Show Bio

@undre: Yeah thats what i was saying. i was arguing that if sakura can hit the limbo clones the anyone in the bleach verse should be able to as well

It's not that Sakura can hit the limbo clone, it's that the limbo clone can block sakura.

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#161 Edited by Rabii99 (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@allellujah:

Bro I posted a gif of sakura attacking, and the limbo clone blocking, which you yourself literally just admitted to. I never said they could sense. I said they could maybe sense. Its literally the first thing I said. I dont have to "prove" anything. Sakura doesnt have rinnegan or senju dna. And she could punch the limbo clone. If she couldnt punch the limbo clone, then how the fuck did the limbo clone block? Look at the gif. go watch the episode. you need more research.

Let me just repeat myself again, my friend. Sakura never attacks Limbo, Sakura tries to rush Madara, gets pierced by a TSB rod then tries to punch Madara but gets the punch blocked by limbo that she, by her own statement thinks is an invisible wall and doesn't know what it is.

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Possibly, I think its within the realm of bleach abilities to open the barrier that masks limbos visibility. I never said that kido would hit a limbo clone, at all actually. re read. I literally said this is a possibility at the end of my post lol. re read.

Soul society, hueco mundo, and the human realm are ALL "adjacent" worlds. None of them are connected outside of one of the only ways, using gargantia. Ulquiorra, a character people dont even consider top tier can casually open this dimension to move through all of these worlds.

You claim it's a possibility, you'd need to back up that statement.

Youre missing my point. It literally doesnt matter if they cant be seen or felt, because there are damn near identical situations in bleach where the exact same thing happens. And just like a gif i posted, sakura literally punched a limbo clone, it doesnt matter if the limbo clone was hurt, it doesnt matter if she cant see it, she literally punched it. meaning the limbo clone had to block for madara, they have interaction with the real world. like i was trying to prove with the gif that i posted

Since you failed to see the similarities, let me point them out for you. Kenpachi/Sakura - Both cant see the enemy. Both cant sense the enemy. Both cant hear the enemy. The only sense that kenpachi MIGHT have over sakura, is feeling. And in the panel that YOU posted sakura said she hit an invisible wall. she didnt say "what blocked for him, or what did i just hit"? she literally knows there was something inbetween her fist and madara.

See scans above for the "Sakura attacked a limbo" headcanon. If she knows there's an invisible wall then why did she punch it?

Youre an idiot. Are you trying to say that sasuke and naruto both went to the realm where madaras limbo clones were born in order to attack and defend against them? False, because sakura was also able to punch a limbo clone. it didnt matter if she had NO sense for them at all, they still made contact.

Ironically, you're the idiot when you went up against the manga and claimed Sakura attacked.

As for Naruto and Sasuke attacking Limbo, they can see them/sense them throught Rinnegan/Six Paths Sage and hurt them through Six Paths chakra. If you'd want to argue that bleach characters have either of that then be my guest. That wouldn't be far-fetched considering you claimed Sakura attacked Limbo.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Even if they cant be hurt by physical attacks, which we dont know,

We do know that they can't be hurt by physical attacks.

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we do know that they were stopped by the same physical attacks that cant hurt them.

Pure headcanon.

You literally posted a scan YOURSELF where sakura hit a limbo clone. so you cant tell me that she didnt attack one. and i never said that sakura DEFENDED against a limbo clone, that would be like me saying sakura is on madaras level. you might be the only idiot here to slip up and say something that dumb. not me. Jumping to conclusions? What conclusions did i jump to? I need to prove Bleach characters can feel somethng in an adjacent world? lol

"I never said that Sakura defended against a Limbo clone"

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So not only are you going up against the manga itself by all that headcanon, you're also going up against yourself from previous posts.

@revold:

Sage Mode gives Naruto enhanced perception of chakra. It is the "Six Paths" part that makes the difference whether he can sense Limbo or not. Sasuke can also see Limbo with Six Paths Chakra enhanced Sharingan. And Six Paths Chakra isn't the only Chakra. Any Chakra which is greater than that, like Kaguya's, will have the same properties.

Kaguya's chakra is Six paths chakra. Throught sealing the Juubi(weakened Kaguya) in themselves the Juubi Jinchurikis gain Six Paths Sage mode. SPSM is an enhanced sage mode with godly properties which is why it allowed Naruto to sense

This is same in Bleach, where Isshin and Ichigo both have the same ability of Reiatsu sensing, but the difference in Reiatsu decides who can sense Aizen's powers. Since Aizen has his own Reiatsu sensing ability, what's left is to see whether Aizen's Reiatsu is superior or Six Paths Chakra is superior.

Again, Naruto's sensing Limbo because of the properties of Six Paths Sage Mode not because of the level of his chakra.

Whoa whoa not so fast. Databook statements can be misinterpreted or taken out of context. In this case it says equal ability, not equal Chakra levels. The difference I already illustrated in my Isshin vs Ichigo example.

It says "Madara from an adjacent world". There's no proof that a shadow of Madara from an adjacent world has higher or lower chakra than him.

Naruto's clones were able to keep them busy and swap hands with them. Which we know Naruto clones are 1/6 of his original Chakra. If Limbo clones are really the same chakra level as Madara, who is definitely way above the original Naruto, the Limbo clones would've won single-handedly even with pure Taijutsu.

Naruto's clones kept up with them for an unknown amount of time but ultimately lost.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

For all we know, Madara's limbo comes back to him after a certain amount of time, Madara was activating Infinite Tsukuyomi at that time.

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#162 Posted by Revold (752 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99 said:

@revold:

Sage Mode gives Naruto enhanced perception of chakra. It is the "Six Paths" part that makes the difference whether he can sense Limbo or not. Sasuke can also see Limbo with Six Paths Chakra enhanced Sharingan. And Six Paths Chakra isn't the only Chakra. Any Chakra which is greater than that, like Kaguya's, will have the same properties.

Kaguya's chakra is Six paths chakra. Throught sealing the Juubi(weakened Kaguya) in themselves the Juubi Jinchurikis gain Six Paths Sage mode. SPSM is an enhanced sage mode with godly properties which is why it allowed Naruto to sense

This is same in Bleach, where Isshin and Ichigo both have the same ability of Reiatsu sensing, but the difference in Reiatsu decides who can sense Aizen's powers. Since Aizen has his own Reiatsu sensing ability, what's left is to see whether Aizen's Reiatsu is superior or Six Paths Chakra is superior.

Again, Naruto's sensing Limbo because of the properties of Six Paths Sage Mode not because of the level of his chakra.

Whoa whoa not so fast. Databook statements can be misinterpreted or taken out of context. In this case it says equal ability, not equal Chakra levels. The difference I already illustrated in my Isshin vs Ichigo example.

It says "Madara from an adjacent world". There's no proof that a shadow of Madara from an adjacent world has higher or lower chakra than him.

Naruto's clones were able to keep them busy and swap hands with them. Which we know Naruto clones are 1/6 of his original Chakra. If Limbo clones are really the same chakra level as Madara, who is definitely way above the original Naruto, the Limbo clones would've won single-handedly even with pure Taijutsu.

Naruto's clones kept up with them for an unknown amount of time but ultimately lost.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

For all we know, Madara's limbo comes back to him after a certain amount of time, Madara was activating Infinite Tsukuyomi at that time.

Well depends on how you define Six Paths Chakra. It's usually known as Hagoromo's Chakra, which is part of Kaguya's. That's why absorbing the Juubi wasn't enough to revive her, she needs to absorb all of the Shinobi World as well.

Six Paths Sage Mode is Sage Mode (a chakra sensing ability) enhanced by Six Paths Chakra, which is just a more pure form of Chakra compared to "normal" ones. Similarly, Aizen's Reiatsu Sensing ability is also enhanced by how transcendent his Reiatsu is. Anyways, I think it is not unfair to consider this argument as borderline headcanon as it involves many logic links.

"Madara from an adjacent world" doesn't say anything about their chakra though, even they are an exact copy of Madara atom-by-atom.

The scans you provided didn't really show that they lost though. I mean, do you still expect the clones to be there fighting while the Infinite Tsukuyomi is being cast? Of course they would be gone by then. And anyways it doesn't matter if they won or lost. The fact that they were able to swap hands with them is already enough to show that they don't have nearly the same chakra as the original. Do you realise how big of a gap you are justifying? That's 1/5 of Naruto vs about 2x Naruto lowballing. IT doesn't justify that because they started fighting before that already, not to mention the Limbo clones were created before that so it shouldn't affect their chakra anyway, unless you are saying IT uses up all their Chakra at the same time.

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#164 Edited by Rabii99 (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@revold:

Well depends on how you define Six Paths Chakra. It's usually known as Hagoromo's Chakra, which is part of Kaguya's. That's why absorbing the Juubi wasn't enough to revive her, she needs to absorb all of the Shinobi World as well.

Hagoromo's chakra is a part of Kaguya's massive reserves so her chakra is six paths chakra as well.

Six Paths Sage Mode is Sage Mode (a chakra sensing ability) enhanced by Six Paths Chakra, which is just a more pure form of Chakra compared to "normal" ones. Similarly, Aizen's Reiatsu Sensing ability is also enhanced by how transcendent his Reiatsu is. Anyways, I think it is not unfair to consider this argument as borderline headcanon as it involves many logic links.

That reasoning involves headcanon not logic links:

First of all, SPSM is not just Sage mode enhanced by Six Paths chakra, if that was the case then anyone with sage mode would just get six paths chakra and unlock SPSM but that's not the case according to the databook.

No Caption Provided

From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature

The qualities for obtaining this technique are strict studying and using a small gist in chakra kneading sensibility. An iron faith to face any hardship and the guts to never give up. Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. Those who activate the technique come to understand the flow of all life, gain a deep insight at the world's origins and are able to apply it on interacting allies without changing the way of things. This technique isn't something shinobi choose to experience. It is a technique that chooses shinobi.

Second of all, even if we supposed SPSM is only SM with six paths chakra, saying that Aizen can replicate Naruto's sensing feat because his reiatsu is transcendent is an association fallacy.

The scans you provided didn't really show that they lost though. I mean, do you still expect the clones to be there fighting while the Infinite Tsukuyomi is being cast? Of course they would be gone by then.

How would they be gone?

And anyways it doesn't matter if they won or lost. The fact that they were able to swap hands with them is already enough to show that they don't have nearly the same chakra as the original.

Do you realise how big of a gap you are justifying? That's 1/5 of Naruto vs about 2x Naruto lowballing.

The gap isn't as big as you're making it out be. Both limbo and Naruto's clones have access to SPSM and Bijuu's chakra. Madara is only stronger than Naruto in that he has Rinnegan which does not boost chakra levels.

IT doesn't justify that because they started fighting before that already, not to mention the Limbo clones were created before that so it shouldn't affect their chakra anyway, unless you are saying IT uses up all their Chakra at the same time.

I think you misinterpreted the last paragraph in my last post so I'm gonna explain it further: For all we know from the databook, Limbo comes back to Madara after a certain amount of time and Naruto's clones disapeared so Limbo won before the time limit, further enforcing their superiority.

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#165 Posted by Revold (752 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99 said:

@revold:

Well depends on how you define Six Paths Chakra. It's usually known as Hagoromo's Chakra, which is part of Kaguya's. That's why absorbing the Juubi wasn't enough to revive her, she needs to absorb all of the Shinobi World as well.

Hagoromo's chakra is a part of Kaguya's massive reserves so her chakra is six paths chakra as well.

Like I said depends on your definition. Kaguya's Chakra consists of Six Paths Chakra, but its a different blend nonetheless.

Six Paths Sage Mode is Sage Mode (a chakra sensing ability) enhanced by Six Paths Chakra, which is just a more pure form of Chakra compared to "normal" ones. Similarly, Aizen's Reiatsu Sensing ability is also enhanced by how transcendent his Reiatsu is. Anyways, I think it is not unfair to consider this argument as borderline headcanon as it involves many logic links.

That reasoning involves headcanon not logic links:

First of all, SPSM is not just Sage mode enhanced by Six Paths chakra, if that was the case then anyone with sage mode would just get six paths chakra and unlock SPSM but that's not the case according to the databook.

Why would anyone with Sage Mode get Six Paths Chakra? I don't get it and it's certainly wasn't what I was claiming.

From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature

The qualities for obtaining this technique are strict studying and using a small gist in chakra kneading sensibility. An iron faith to face any hardship and the guts to never give up. Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. Those who activate the technique come to understand the flow of all life, gain a deep insight at the world's origins and are able to apply it on interacting allies without changing the way of things. This technique isn't something shinobi choose to experience. It is a technique that chooses shinobi.

I don't understand what this is supposed to prove. That means Aizen couldn't sense Limbo because he doesn't have an iron faith? I was merely isolating the factor that allows SPSM to sense Limbo. The criteria to achieve SPSM is irrelevant unless the criteria itself, in this case iron faith, is the factor that allows Naruto to sense Limbo. Which I don't think is the case.

Second of all, even if we supposed SPSM is only SM with six paths chakra, saying that Aizen can replicate Naruto's sensing feat because his reiatsu is transcendent is an association fallacy.

Like I said, you are free to consider it as headcanon, fair enough. My logic was very clear in my last post. Naruto used a Chakra Sensing ability to sense Limbo, an ability which Aizen too had. But not all Chakra Sensing ability can sense Limbo, due to not having Six Paths Chakra, or any Chakra equal to or more pure than that. To determine if Aizen's ability can do that, we just have to determine if Aizen's Reiatsu is superior to Six Paths Chakra. Point to me the fallacy here

The scans you provided didn't really show that they lost though. I mean, do you still expect the clones to be there fighting while the Infinite Tsukuyomi is being cast? Of course they would be gone by then.

How would they be gone?

Naruto could've released the Jutsu? Or that Madara finished them off when they got affected by IT? Either way, it doesn't prove your point.

And anyways it doesn't matter if they won or lost. The fact that they were able to swap hands with them is already enough to show that they don't have nearly the same chakra as the original.

Do you realise how big of a gap you are justifying? That's 1/5 of Naruto vs about 2x Naruto lowballing.

The gap isn't as big as you're making it out be. Both limbo and Naruto's clones have access to SPSM and Bijuu's chakra. Madara is only stronger than Naruto in that he has Rinnegan which does not boost chakra levels.

You just mentioned that Madara has greater Arsenal that Naruto don't like the Rinnegan, meaning there's no excuse for him to be swapping hands with Naruto if he retains the Juubi level chakra reserve you claim. In fact what are we even arguing now? It seems like you are agreeing with me. If he has the Rinnegan, that does not boost chakra levels, that means Limbo for sure have lower chakra than Naruto clones? Because even after the Rinnegan was suppose to make up for it, they still fought on equal grounds.

Naruto and Sasuke together couldn't put Madara down, but somehow Naruto's clones can?

IT doesn't justify that because they started fighting before that already, not to mention the Limbo clones were created before that so it shouldn't affect their chakra anyway, unless you are saying IT uses up all their Chakra at the same time.

I think you misinterpreted the last paragraph in my last post so I'm gonna explain it further: For all we know from the databook, Limbo comes back to Madara after a certain amount of time and Naruto's clones disapeared so Limbo won before the time limit, further enforcing their superiority.

Ok now I get what you mean. But you failed to prove that they "win", so that's that.

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#166 Posted by Rabii99 (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@revold said:
@rabii99 said:

@revold:

Well depends on how you define Six Paths Chakra. It's usually known as Hagoromo's Chakra, which is part of Kaguya's. That's why absorbing the Juubi wasn't enough to revive her, she needs to absorb all of the Shinobi World as well.

Hagoromo's chakra is a part of Kaguya's massive reserves so her chakra is six paths chakra as well.

Like I said depends on your definition. Kaguya's Chakra consists of Six Paths Chakra, but its a different blend nonetheless.

Hagoromo's chakra is a part of Kaguya's chakra so going by your logic, Hagoromo's chakra also only consists of six paths chakra.

Six Paths Sage Mode is Sage Mode (a chakra sensing ability) enhanced by Six Paths Chakra, which is just a more pure form of Chakra compared to "normal" ones. Similarly, Aizen's Reiatsu Sensing ability is also enhanced by how transcendent his Reiatsu is. Anyways, I think it is not unfair to consider this argument as borderline headcanon as it involves many logic links.

That reasoning involves headcanon not logic links:

First of all, SPSM is not just Sage mode enhanced by Six Paths chakra, if that was the case then anyone with sage mode would just get six paths chakra and unlock SPSM but that's not the case according to the databook.

Why would anyone with Sage Mode get Six Paths Chakra? I don't get it and it's certainly wasn't what I was claiming.

You claimed SPSM is just SM with six paths chakra which is not true. SPSM is much more than that hence why I posted the databook entry

From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature

The qualities for obtaining this technique are strict studying and using a small gist in chakra kneading sensibility. An iron faith to face any hardship and the guts to never give up. Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. Those who activate the technique come to understand the flow of all life, gain a deep insight at the world's origins and are able to apply it on interacting allies without changing the way of things. This technique isn't something shinobi choose to experience. It is a technique that chooses shinobi.

I don't understand what this is supposed to prove. That means Aizen couldn't sense Limbo because he doesn't have an iron faith? I was merely isolating the factor that allows SPSM to sense Limbo. The criteria to achieve SPSM is irrelevant unless the criteria itself, in this case iron faith, is the factor that allows Naruto to sense Limbo. Which I don't think is the case.

You didn't understand what the databook serves for even though the phrase directly before it states the point:

"First of all, SPSM is not just Sage mode enhanced by Six Paths chakra, if that was the case then anyone with sage mode would just get six paths chakra and unlock SPSM but that's not the case according to the databook."

Second of all, even if we supposed SPSM is only SM with six paths chakra, saying that Aizen can replicate Naruto's sensing feat because his reiatsu is transcendent is an association fallacy.

Like I said, you are free to consider it as headcanon, fair enough. My logic was very clear in my last post. Naruto used a Chakra Sensing ability to sense Limbo, an ability which Aizen too had. But not all Chakra Sensing ability can sense Limbo, due to not having Six Paths Chakra, or any Chakra equal to or more pure than that. To determine if Aizen's ability can do that, we just have to determine if Aizen's Reiatsu is superior to Six Paths Chakra. Point to me the fallacy here

You associated Aizen sensing reiatsu and Naruto sensing limbo because the former has transcendent reaitsu and the latter has "enhanced chakra". There's other problems with that logic other than it being an association fallacy, the most obvious one is that it considers Naruto to be able to sense Limbo before of his chakra level when he did that thanks to SPSM allowing him to do that.

The scans you provided didn't really show that they lost though. I mean, do you still expect the clones to be there fighting while the Infinite Tsukuyomi is being cast? Of course they would be gone by then.

How would they be gone?

Naruto could've released the Jutsu? Or that Madara finished them off when they got affected by IT? Either way, it doesn't prove your point.

Naruto releasing the clones and having to deal with the Limbo and IT at the same time is headcanon and illogical one at that. Saying Madara could have finished them off shows you've not read those chapters in a while. Limbo are roaming off freely even before Madara flies back to ground from doing IT and is still tying people through Shinju tree.

No Caption Provided

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Also, Sasuke considers Limbo to be capable of killing them.

And anyways it doesn't matter if they won or lost. The fact that they were able to swap hands with them is already enough to show that they don't have nearly the same chakra as the original.

Do you realise how big of a gap you are justifying? That's 1/5 of Naruto vs about 2x Naruto lowballing.

The gap isn't as big as you're making it out be. Both limbo and Naruto's clones have access to SPSM and Bijuu's chakra. Madara is only stronger than Naruto in that he has Rinnegan which does not boost chakra levels.

You just mentioned that Madara has greater Arsenal that Naruto don't like the Rinnegan, meaning there's no excuse for him to be swapping hands with Naruto if he retains the Juubi level chakra reserve you claim. In fact what are we even arguing now? It seems like you are agreeing with me. If he has the Rinnegan, that does not boost chakra levels, that means Limbo for sure have lower chakra than Naruto clones? Because even after the Rinnegan was suppose to make up for it, they still fought on equal grounds. Naruto and Sasuke together couldn't put Madara down, but somehow Naruto's clones can?

This is definitely not some "very clear logic" over here. Limbo swapped hands with Naruto's clones but eventually still won just like Naruto can swap hands with Kaguya who has much more chakra but she will eventually win.

You bringing up Rinnegan actually helps my arguments not yours since Limbo were not shown to use Rinnegan abilities but still won against Naruto's clones.

IT doesn't justify that because they started fighting before that already, not to mention the Limbo clones were created before that so it shouldn't affect their chakra anyway, unless you are saying IT uses up all their Chakra at the same time.

I think you misinterpreted the last paragraph in my last post so I'm gonna explain it further: For all we know from the databook, Limbo comes back to Madara after a certain amount of time and Naruto's clones disapeared so Limbo won before the time limit, further enforcing their superiority.

Ok now I get what you mean. But you failed to prove that they "win", so that's that.

See above.

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#167 Posted by Revold (752 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99 said:
@revold said:
@rabii99 said:

@revold:

Well depends on how you define Six Paths Chakra. It's usually known as Hagoromo's Chakra, which is part of Kaguya's. That's why absorbing the Juubi wasn't enough to revive her, she needs to absorb all of the Shinobi World as well.

Hagoromo's chakra is a part of Kaguya's massive reserves so her chakra is six paths chakra as well.

Like I said depends on your definition. Kaguya's Chakra consists of Six Paths Chakra, but its a different blend nonetheless.

Hagoromo's chakra is a part of Kaguya's chakra so going by your logic, Hagoromo's chakra also only consists of six paths chakra.

No what I was saying is Kaguya's Chakra consists of Hagoromo's Chakra, aka Six Paths Chakra. The difference is Hagoromo's Chakra "consists of" Six Paths Chakra and nothing else, while Kaguya consists of Six Paths Chakra and something else, making it a different blend of chakra.

Six Paths Sage Mode is Sage Mode (a chakra sensing ability) enhanced by Six Paths Chakra, which is just a more pure form of Chakra compared to "normal" ones. Similarly, Aizen's Reiatsu Sensing ability is also enhanced by how transcendent his Reiatsu is. Anyways, I think it is not unfair to consider this argument as borderline headcanon as it involves many logic links.

That reasoning involves headcanon not logic links:

First of all, SPSM is not just Sage mode enhanced by Six Paths chakra, if that was the case then anyone with sage mode would just get six paths chakra and unlock SPSM but that's not the case according to the databook.

Why would anyone with Sage Mode get Six Paths Chakra? I don't get it and it's certainly wasn't what I was claiming.

You claimed SPSM is just SM with six paths chakra which is not true. SPSM is much more than that hence why I posted the databook entry

From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature

The qualities for obtaining this technique are strict studying and using a small gist in chakra kneading sensibility. An iron faith to face any hardship and the guts to never give up. Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. Those who activate the technique come to understand the flow of all life, gain a deep insight at the world's origins and are able to apply it on interacting allies without changing the way of things. This technique isn't something shinobi choose to experience. It is a technique that chooses shinobi.

I don't understand what this is supposed to prove. That means Aizen couldn't sense Limbo because he doesn't have an iron faith? I was merely isolating the factor that allows SPSM to sense Limbo. The criteria to achieve SPSM is irrelevant unless the criteria itself, in this case iron faith, is the factor that allows Naruto to sense Limbo. Which I don't think is the case.

You didn't understand what the databook serves for even though the phrase directly before it states the point:

"First of all, SPSM is not just Sage mode enhanced by Six Paths chakra, if that was the case then anyone with sage mode would just get six paths chakra and unlock SPSM but that's not the case according to the databook."

I can somewhat see your point but it's just worded so confusingly. You mean not everyone who has Sage Mode and Six Paths Chakra gets Six Paths Sage Mode, am I right?

The thing is, it doesn't even matter. I'm not claiming that Aizen got Six Paths Sage Mode. I'm claiming that Aizen has the same attribute of SPSM that allows him to sense Limbo, and that is Six Paths Chakra (or superior).

Six Paths Chakra is the only attribute shared between Sasuke's Rinnegan and Naruto's SPSM. When both of them can perceive it, it just says that Six Paths Chakra is the sole factor, regardless of other attributes needed to unlock SPSM.

This is even more strengthened when Limbo can only be used by those with Six Paths Chakra, which is why Juubito and Nagato couldn't use it, dead or alive. And in Naruto we all know that things can counter itself, like Senjutsu counter Senjutsu, etc. So we all know that Six Paths Chakra specifically is what allows Naruto to sense and interact with the Limbo Clones, not SPSM and everything else that comes with it.

Second of all, even if we supposed SPSM is only SM with six paths chakra, saying that Aizen can replicate Naruto's sensing feat because his reiatsu is transcendent is an association fallacy.

Like I said, you are free to consider it as headcanon, fair enough. My logic was very clear in my last post. Naruto used a Chakra Sensing ability to sense Limbo, an ability which Aizen too had. But not all Chakra Sensing ability can sense Limbo, due to not having Six Paths Chakra, or any Chakra equal to or more pure than that. To determine if Aizen's ability can do that, we just have to determine if Aizen's Reiatsu is superior to Six Paths Chakra. Point to me the fallacy here

You associated Aizen sensing reiatsu and Naruto sensing limbo because the former has transcendent reaitsu and the latter has "enhanced chakra". There's other problems with that logic other than it being an association fallacy, the most obvious one is that it considers Naruto to be able to sense Limbo before of his chakra level when he did that thanks to SPSM allowing him to do that.

So you are saying Reiatsu's transcendence is not the same as Chakra's enhancement? Well, it might be different in some other ways, but both are the same in terms of sensing one's powers, and that is enough for my argument to stand. One with inferior Reiatsu can't perceive powers of one with superior Reiatsu. One with inferior Chakra can't perceive powers of one with superior Reiatsu. Unless the one with superior Reiatsu purposely lowers itself. Which is why Limbo Clones can make themselves tangible when they are defending Madara.

The scans you provided didn't really show that they lost though. I mean, do you still expect the clones to be there fighting while the Infinite Tsukuyomi is being cast? Of course they would be gone by then.

How would they be gone?

Naruto could've released the Jutsu? Or that Madara finished them off when they got affected by IT? Either way, it doesn't prove your point.

Naruto releasing the clones and having to deal with the Limbo and IT at the same time is headcanon and illogical one at that. Saying Madara could have finished them off shows you've not read those chapters in a while. Limbo are roaming off freely even before Madara flies back to ground from doing IT and is still tying people through Shinju tree.

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Also, Sasuke considers Limbo to be capable of killing them.

Wait a min. Your scan literally shows people already got wrapped up in Jukai Kotan, a Jutsu that is cast after IT. And it only wraps around those that are already affected by IT. Are you trying to say that IT was not yet cast when Limbo was roaming around freely? Because everything you just said contradicts this claim.

Anyways like I said, it doesn't matter whether Limbo win or lose. It wasn't my point in the first place. The fact that the clones were kept busy by Naruto clones is already plenty to prove that the clones definitely do not have the same chakra level as Madara, to say the least.

Sasuke said: "If they kill the two of us everything is over." Which is absolutely right, but it does not suggest at all that the Limbo clones are more powerful than them. The most you can infer from it is that the Limbo clones stand a chance at killing them. In fact, that is especially true when you consider when Naruto gets out, he would be affected by IT.

And anyways it doesn't matter if they won or lost. The fact that they were able to swap hands with them is already enough to show that they don't have nearly the same chakra as the original.

Do you realise how big of a gap you are justifying? That's 1/5 of Naruto vs about 2x Naruto lowballing.

The gap isn't as big as you're making it out be. Both limbo and Naruto's clones have access to SPSM and Bijuu's chakra. Madara is only stronger than Naruto in that he has Rinnegan which does not boost chakra levels.

You just mentioned that Madara has greater Arsenal that Naruto don't like the Rinnegan, meaning there's no excuse for him to be swapping hands with Naruto if he retains the Juubi level chakra reserve you claim. In fact what are we even arguing now? It seems like you are agreeing with me. If he has the Rinnegan, that does not boost chakra levels, that means Limbo for sure have lower chakra than Naruto clones? Because even after the Rinnegan was suppose to make up for it, they still fought on equal grounds. Naruto and Sasuke together couldn't put Madara down, but somehow Naruto's clones can?

This is definitely not some "very clear logic" over here. Limbo swapped hands with Naruto's clones but eventually still won just like Naruto can swap hands with Kaguya who has much more chakra but she will eventually win.

You bringing up Rinnegan actually helps my arguments not yours since Limbo were not shown to use Rinnegan abilities but still won against Naruto's clones.

Naruto doesn't "swap hands" with Kaguya like how his clones does with Limbo lol. Very very very very different. This is purely h2h, in which case we can compare chakra. Any more than that is too many factors to consider. Naruto would've died at least 3 times over if not for other people there too. Anyways you don't know if the Limbo Clones did use the Rinnegan, and which they have no reason to not use them. But that's okay. Let's just say everything is in your favour:

  • Limbo did not use Rinnegan abilities
  • Limbo won
  • Naruto's clones didn't get affected by IT before Limbo defeated them
  • Limbo Clones defeated Naruto's clones before the Limbo time-limit is up

Even conceding all these claims, you still have no grounds to say that the Limbo Clones have the same amount of chakra as the original. Because if that's the case, Naruto's clones would be fodder in Taijutsu against him, who is 10x stronger due to all the Bijuu Chakra, and they won't even be able to swap hands. Don't even bring up Kaguya, they have never had a h2h combat.

IT doesn't justify that because they started fighting before that already, not to mention the Limbo clones were created before that so it shouldn't affect their chakra anyway, unless you are saying IT uses up all their Chakra at the same time.

I think you misinterpreted the last paragraph in my last post so I'm gonna explain it further: For all we know from the databook, Limbo comes back to Madara after a certain amount of time and Naruto's clones disapeared so Limbo won before the time limit, further enforcing their superiority.

Ok now I get what you mean. But you failed to prove that they "win", so that's that.

See above.

ok.

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#168 Posted by Kalebsmarty156 (1474 posts) - - Show Bio

Why tf are we debating over limbo? Let's just agree it won't work.

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#169 Posted by Allellujah (66 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99:

@rabii99 said:

@allellujah:

Bro I posted a gif of sakura attacking, and the limbo clone blocking, which you yourself literally just admitted to. I never said they could sense. I said they could maybe sense. Its literally the first thing I said. I dont have to "prove" anything. Sakura doesnt have rinnegan or senju dna. And she could punch the limbo clone. If she couldnt punch the limbo clone, then how the fuck did the limbo clone block? Look at the gif. go watch the episode. you need more research.

Let me just repeat myself again, my friend. Sakura never attacks Limbo, Sakura tries to rush Madara, gets pierced by a TSB rod then tries to punch Madara but gets the punch blocked by limbo that she, by her own statement thinks is an invisible wall and doesn't know what it is.

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Possibly, I think its within the realm of bleach abilities to open the barrier that masks limbos visibility. I never said that kido would hit a limbo clone, at all actually. re read. I literally said this is a possibility at the end of my post lol. re read.

Soul society, hueco mundo, and the human realm are ALL "adjacent" worlds. None of them are connected outside of one of the only ways, using gargantia. Ulquiorra, a character people dont even consider top tier can casually open this dimension to move through all of these worlds.

You claim it's a possibility, you'd need to back up that statement.

Youre missing my point. It literally doesnt matter if they cant be seen or felt, because there are damn near identical situations in bleach where the exact same thing happens. And just like a gif i posted, sakura literally punched a limbo clone, it doesnt matter if the limbo clone was hurt, it doesnt matter if she cant see it, she literally punched it. meaning the limbo clone had to block for madara, they have interaction with the real world. like i was trying to prove with the gif that i posted

Since you failed to see the similarities, let me point them out for you. Kenpachi/Sakura - Both cant see the enemy. Both cant sense the enemy. Both cant hear the enemy. The only sense that kenpachi MIGHT have over sakura, is feeling. And in the panel that YOU posted sakura said she hit an invisible wall. she didnt say "what blocked for him, or what did i just hit"? she literally knows there was something inbetween her fist and madara.

See scans above for the "Sakura attacked a limbo" headcanon. If she knows there's an invisible wall then why did she punch it?

Youre an idiot. Are you trying to say that sasuke and naruto both went to the realm where madaras limbo clones were born in order to attack and defend against them? False, because sakura was also able to punch a limbo clone. it didnt matter if she had NO sense for them at all, they still made contact.

Ironically, you're the idiot when you went up against the manga and claimed Sakura attacked.

As for Naruto and Sasuke attacking Limbo, they can see them/sense them throught Rinnegan/Six Paths Sage and hurt them through Six Paths chakra. If you'd want to argue that bleach characters have either of that then be my guest. That wouldn't be far-fetched considering you claimed Sakura attacked Limbo.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Even if they cant be hurt by physical attacks, which we dont know,

We do know that they can't be hurt by physical attacks.

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we do know that they were stopped by the same physical attacks that cant hurt them.

Pure headcanon.

You literally posted a scan YOURSELF where sakura hit a limbo clone. so you cant tell me that she didnt attack one. and i never said that sakura DEFENDED against a limbo clone, that would be like me saying sakura is on madaras level. you might be the only idiot here to slip up and say something that dumb. not me. Jumping to conclusions? What conclusions did i jump to? I need to prove Bleach characters can feel somethng in an adjacent world? lol

"I never said that Sakura defended against a Limbo clone"

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So not only are you going up against the manga itself by all that headcanon, you're also going up against yourself from previous posts.

@revold:

Sage Mode gives Naruto enhanced perception of chakra. It is the "Six Paths" part that makes the difference whether he can sense Limbo or not. Sasuke can also see Limbo with Six Paths Chakra enhanced Sharingan. And Six Paths Chakra isn't the only Chakra. Any Chakra which is greater than that, like Kaguya's, will have the same properties.

Kaguya's chakra is Six paths chakra. Throught sealing the Juubi(weakened Kaguya) in themselves the Juubi Jinchurikis gain Six Paths Sage mode. SPSM is an enhanced sage mode with godly properties which is why it allowed Naruto to sense

This is same in Bleach, where Isshin and Ichigo both have the same ability of Reiatsu sensing, but the difference in Reiatsu decides who can sense Aizen's powers. Since Aizen has his own Reiatsu sensing ability, what's left is to see whether Aizen's Reiatsu is superior or Six Paths Chakra is superior.

Again, Naruto's sensing Limbo because of the properties of Six Paths Sage Mode not because of the level of his chakra.

Whoa whoa not so fast. Databook statements can be misinterpreted or taken out of context. In this case it says equal ability, not equal Chakra levels. The difference I already illustrated in my Isshin vs Ichigo example.

It says "Madara from an adjacent world". There's no proof that a shadow of Madara from an adjacent world has higher or lower chakra than him.

Naruto's clones were able to keep them busy and swap hands with them. Which we know Naruto clones are 1/6 of his original Chakra. If Limbo clones are really the same chakra level as Madara, who is definitely way above the original Naruto, the Limbo clones would've won single-handedly even with pure Taijutsu.

Naruto's clones kept up with them for an unknown amount of time but ultimately lost.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

For all we know, Madara's limbo comes back to him after a certain amount of time, Madara was activating Infinite Tsukuyomi at that time.

Let me just repeat myself again, my friend. Sakura never attacks Limbo, Sakura tries to rush Madara, gets pierced by a TSB rod then tries to punch Madara but gets the punch blocked by limbo that she, by her own statement thinks is an invisible wall and doesn't know what it is

Bro talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. I have said MULTIPLE TIMES NOW that the point is that they are making contact. On top of that, how do you not see that what you are saying in the same fucking sentence is contradicting your point of view?????? If she never attacked, then how is madara blocking? Do you think madara limbo clone blocked air? What exactly do you think happens when a madara limbo clone blocks something? lol Do you know what attacking or blocking means? We are using the same words but somehow coming to different conculsions which makes me believe that you actually dont know what youre saying. Youre saying that sakura never attacked, but then youre saying that Madara limbo clone blocked an attack that NEVER HAPPENED?????? That makes no fucking sense.

Possibly, I think its within the realm of bleach abilities to open the barrier that masks limbos visibility. I never said that kido would hit a limbo clone, at all actually. re read. I literally said this is a possibility at the end of my post lol. re read.

Soul society, hueco mundo, and the human realm are ALL "adjacent" worlds. None of them are connected outside of one of the only ways, using gargantia. Ulquiorra, a character people dont even consider top tier can casually open this dimension to move through all of these worlds.

You claim it's a possibility, you'd need to back up that statement

Bruuuuhh. in the same fucking post i said why it might be "possible". And i even posted ANOTHER gif of a character using an ability. What the fuck do you mean i need to back up that statement? This is the equivalent of you saying - for example - " Rinnegan has the ability to rip out souls, so people with rinnegan should be able to see bleach characters, who can only be seen by special humans, soul reapers, or hollows in bleach." Then i tell you to back up that statement. And tell you to prove to me that a naruto character can see a bleach character when it never happened in naruto? Do you understand how dumb that sounds? You missed an entire point again so ill restate this one for you as well. actually ill just copy and paste so you can know that i said it b4.

Possibly, I think its within the realm of bleach abilities to open the barrier that masks limbos visibility. I never said that kido would hit a limbo clone, at all actually. re read. I literally said this is a possibility at the end of my post lol. re read.

Soul society, hueco mundo, and the human realm are ALL "adjacent" worlds. None of them are connected outside of one of the only ways, using gargantia. Ulquiorra, a character people dont even consider top tier can casually open this dimension to move through all of these worlds.

Ironically, you're the idiot when you went up against the manga and claimed Sakura attacked.

As for Naruto and Sasuke attacking Limbo, they can see them/sense them throught Rinnegan/Six Paths Sage and hurt them through Six Paths chakra. If you'd want to argue that bleach characters have either of that then be my guest. That wouldn't be far-fetched considering you claimed Sakura attacked Limbo.

Even if they cant be hurt by physical attacks, which we dont know,

We do know that they can't be hurt by physical attacks.

we do know that they were stopped by the same physical attacks that cant hurt them.

Pure headcanon.

First of all, i claimed that we dont know if they can be hurt by physical attacks. AND THEN IN THIS VERY SENTENCE, YOURE GONNA TELL ME THAT THEY GOT HURT AFTER YOU TRIED TO TELL ME PREVIOUSLY THAT THEY CANT BE? ??? ??????

Second of all, you are using the words attack, see, and sense all interchangeably.. To attack is NOT to see. To see is NOT to sense. To sense is NOT to attack. These 3 different things, are NOT THE SAME. I understand why youre getting so confused now, english must not be your native language, so ill help you out buddy. In this sense attacking refers to using a fist, foot, arm, leg, weapon, or etc to HIT/MAKE CONTACT with something. It does not matter if that "something" does not take damage, the fact of the matter is that it made CONTACT with whatever was hitting it.

Third. how the fuck is it head cannon to say that they were stopped? Naruto literally made clones that were fighting on par with limbo clones, they were IN FACT being stopped. thats far from head cannon... And naruto clones vs limbo clones. we dont KNOW if limbo clones took damage from naruto clones, that certainly wasnt implied, especially after it was told to us that they cant take damage. SO, Youre using head cannon by saying and i quote - "see them/sense them throught Rinnegan/Six Paths Sage and hurt them through Six Paths chakra"

"I never said that Sakura defended against a Limbo clone"

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So not only are you going up against the manga itself by all that headcanon, you're also going up against yourself from previous posts.

ok. youre literally taking stuff out of context beause i literally posted a gif of naruto AND sakura having interactions with the limbo clones, i guess ill post it again since your eyes are having some trouble.

OBVIOUSLY, sakura has the -attacking limbo clone feat- in this gif, and not defending against one.

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#170 Posted by JOVIOLMA (6161 posts) - - Show Bio

Madara stomps.

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#171 Posted by ourmanuel (11428 posts) - - Show Bio

If you list all of madaras abilities and list aizens you can see who has the advantage.

I don’t know what you mean by this seeing as both of them have a wide variety of techniques at their disposals.

The only real difference between them is that Madara can fire TBBs.

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#172 Edited by Rabii99 (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@revold said:
@rabii99 said:
@revold said:
@rabii99 said:

@revold:

Well depends on how you define Six Paths Chakra. It's usually known as Hagoromo's Chakra, which is part of Kaguya's. That's why absorbing the Juubi wasn't enough to revive her, she needs to absorb all of the Shinobi World as well.

Hagoromo's chakra is a part of Kaguya's massive reserves so her chakra is six paths chakra as well.

Like I said depends on your definition. Kaguya's Chakra consists of Six Paths Chakra, but its a different blend nonetheless.

Hagoromo's chakra is a part of Kaguya's chakra so going by your logic, Hagoromo's chakra also only consists of six paths chakra.

No what I was saying is Kaguya's Chakra consists of Hagoromo's Chakra, aka Six Paths Chakra. The difference is Hagoromo's Chakra "consists of" Six Paths Chakra and nothing else, while Kaguya consists of Six Paths Chakra and something else, making it a different blend of chakra.

You're contradicting yourself here, if Kaguya's chakra is six paths chakra+something else then Hagoromo whose chakra is a part of Kaguya's and is half as strong as her thus has half of her chakra level(since you seem to think chakra is proportional to power) would also have six paths chakra+something else.

Six Paths Sage Mode is Sage Mode (a chakra sensing ability) enhanced by Six Paths Chakra, which is just a more pure form of Chakra compared to "normal" ones. Similarly, Aizen's Reiatsu Sensing ability is also enhanced by how transcendent his Reiatsu is. Anyways, I think it is not unfair to consider this argument as borderline headcanon as it involves many logic links.

That reasoning involves headcanon not logic links:

First of all, SPSM is not just Sage mode enhanced by Six Paths chakra, if that was the case then anyone with sage mode would just get six paths chakra and unlock SPSM but that's not the case according to the databook.

Why would anyone with Sage Mode get Six Paths Chakra? I don't get it and it's certainly wasn't what I was claiming.

You claimed SPSM is just SM with six paths chakra which is not true. SPSM is much more than that hence why I posted the databook entry

From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature

The qualities for obtaining this technique are strict studying and using a small gist in chakra kneading sensibility. An iron faith to face any hardship and the guts to never give up. Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. Those who activate the technique come to understand the flow of all life, gain a deep insight at the world's origins and are able to apply it on interacting allies without changing the way of things. This technique isn't something shinobi choose to experience. It is a technique that chooses shinobi.

I don't understand what this is supposed to prove. That means Aizen couldn't sense Limbo because he doesn't have an iron faith? I was merely isolating the factor that allows SPSM to sense Limbo. The criteria to achieve SPSM is irrelevant unless the criteria itself, in this case iron faith, is the factor that allows Naruto to sense Limbo. Which I don't think is the case.

You didn't understand what the databook serves for even though the phrase directly before it states the point:

"First of all, SPSM is not just Sage mode enhanced by Six Paths chakra, if that was the case then anyone with sage mode would just get six paths chakra and unlock SPSM but that's not the case according to the databook."

I can somewhat see your point but it's just worded so confusingly. You mean not everyone who has Sage Mode and Six Paths Chakra gets Six Paths Sage Mode, am I right?

Not just that, Six Paths Sage mode is more of a godly power in the Narutoverse than just merely being just an "enhanced sage mode".

The thing is, it doesn't even matter. I'm not claiming that Aizen got Six Paths Sage Mode. I'm claiming that Aizen has the same attribute of SPSM that allows him to sense Limbo, and that is Six Paths Chakra (or superior).

What? How does Aizen have six paths chakra or superior?

Six Paths Chakra is the only attribute shared between Sasuke's Rinnegan and Naruto's SPSM. When both of them can perceive it, it just says that Six Paths Chakra is the sole factor, regardless of other attributes needed to unlock SPSM.

This is even more strengthened when Limbo can only be used by those with Six Paths Chakra, which is why Juubito and Nagato couldn't use it, dead or alive. And in Naruto we all know that things can counter itself, like Senjutsu counter Senjutsu, etc. So we all know that Six Paths Chakra specifically is what allows Naruto to sense and interact with the Limbo Clones, not SPSM and everything else that comes with it.

Not both of Naruto and Sasuke can perceive it nor do both of them sense it even though they both have six paths chakra so what you brought up actually enforces my argument. If Six Paths chakra was what allowed Naruto to sense it and what allowed Sasuke to see it then both of them would've been be able to see it/sense it so it's Six paths sage mode/Rinnegan themselves that allow such things.

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Second of all, even if we supposed SPSM is only SM with six paths chakra, saying that Aizen can replicate Naruto's sensing feat because his reiatsu is transcendent is an association fallacy.

Like I said, you are free to consider it as headcanon, fair enough. My logic was very clear in my last post. Naruto used a Chakra Sensing ability to sense Limbo, an ability which Aizen too had. But not all Chakra Sensing ability can sense Limbo, due to not having Six Paths Chakra, or any Chakra equal to or more pure than that. To determine if Aizen's ability can do that, we just have to determine if Aizen's Reiatsu is superior to Six Paths Chakra. Point to me the fallacy here

You associated Aizen sensing reiatsu and Naruto sensing limbo because the former has transcendent reaitsu and the latter has "enhanced chakra". There's other problems with that logic other than it being an association fallacy, the most obvious one is that it considers Naruto to be able to sense Limbo before of his chakra level when he did that thanks to SPSM allowing him to do that.

So you are saying Reiatsu's transcendence is not the same as Chakra's enhancement? Well, it might be different in some other ways, but both are the same in terms of sensing one's powers, and that is enough for my argument to stand.

Enhanced and transcendent are not are synonyms, my friend. Aizen reiatsu is transcendent in that he transcends holllows and reapers which is not the relation between six paths chakra and regular chakra nor is chakra same as reiatsu. So yes your argument is standing, on headcanon that is.

One with inferior Reiatsu can't perceive powers of one with superior Reiatsu.One with inferior Chakra can't perceive powers of one with superior Reiatsu. Unless the one with superior Reiatsu purposely lowers itself. Which is why Limbo Clones can make themselves tangible when they are defending Madara.

How did you even get to such conclusions when there's no interaction between chakra and Reiatsu? When activated, Limbo clones are tangible.

The scans you provided didn't really show that they lost though. I mean, do you still expect the clones to be there fighting while the Infinite Tsukuyomi is being cast? Of course they would be gone by then.

How would they be gone?

Naruto could've released the Jutsu? Or that Madara finished them off when they got affected by IT? Either way, it doesn't prove your point.

Naruto releasing the clones and having to deal with the Limbo and IT at the same time is headcanon and illogical one at that. Saying Madara could have finished them off shows you've not read those chapters in a while. Limbo are roaming off freely even before Madara flies back to ground from doing IT and is still tying people through Shinju tree.

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Also, Sasuke considers Limbo to be capable of killing them.

Wait a min. Your scan literally shows people already got wrapped up in Jukai Kotan, a Jutsu that is cast after IT. And it only wraps around those that are already affected by IT. Are you trying to say that IT was not yet cast when Limbo was roaming around freely? Because everything you just said contradicts this claim.

You seem to be trying to avoid the fact that you're rusty on Naruto by claiming Madara could have finished Naruto's clones them by asking these out-of-place questions. I never claimed IT was not yet cast when limbo was roaming free.

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I said that Madara was still flying up tying the people caught in IT through Shinju tree, he only lands after the Limbos are roaming free. This is all straight from the manga, chapter 667 and chapter 668

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Anyways like I said, it doesn't matter whether Limbo win or lose. It wasn't my point in the first place. The fact that the clones were kept busy by Naruto clones is already plenty to prove that the clones definitely do not have the same chakra level as Madara, to say the least.

The fact that Limbo won means they're superior.

Sasuke said: "If they kill the two of us everything is over." Which is absolutely right, but it does not suggest at all that the Limbo clones are more powerful than them. The most you can infer from it is that the Limbo clones stand a chance at killing them. In fact, that is especially true when you consider when Naruto gets out, he would be affected by IT.

Sasuke straight up says: "his shadows are also outside" "if they kill the two of us everything's over". Why would he say that if they're stronger than the Limbo clones?

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And anyways it doesn't matter if they won or lost. The fact that they were able to swap hands with them is already enough to show that they don't have nearly the same chakra as the original.

Do you realise how big of a gap you are justifying? That's 1/5 of Naruto vs about 2x Naruto lowballing.

The gap isn't as big as you're making it out be. Both limbo and Naruto's clones have access to SPSM and Bijuu's chakra. Madara is only stronger than Naruto in that he has Rinnegan which does not boost chakra levels.

You just mentioned that Madara has greater Arsenal that Naruto don't like the Rinnegan, meaning there's no excuse for him to be swapping hands with Naruto if he retains the Juubi level chakra reserve you claim. In fact what are we even arguing now? It seems like you are agreeing with me. If he has the Rinnegan, that does not boost chakra levels, that means Limbo for sure have lower chakra than Naruto clones? Because even after the Rinnegan was suppose to make up for it, they still fought on equal grounds. Naruto and Sasuke together couldn't put Madara down, but somehow Naruto's clones can?

This is definitely not some "very clear logic" over here. Limbo swapped hands with Naruto's clones but eventually still won just like Naruto can swap hands with Kaguya who has much more chakra but she will eventually win.

You bringing up Rinnegan actually helps my arguments not yours since Limbo were not shown to use Rinnegan abilities but still won against Naruto's clones.

Naruto doesn't "swap hands" with Kaguya like how his clones does with Limbo lol. Very very very very different. This is purely h2h, in which case we can compare chakra. Any more than that is too many factors to consider. Naruto would've died at least 3 times over if not for other people there too. Anyways you don't know if the Limbo Clones did use the Rinnegan, and which they have no reason to not use them. But that's okay.

Naruto swaps his chakra arms with Kaguya's eighty gods palm technique. Going by your own method of reasoning, chakra is proportional to physicals so Naruto swapping chakra arms with Kaguya is same as them swapping physicals.

Let's just say everything is in your favour:

We don't need to suppose that when it already is.

Limbo did not use Rinnegan abilities

Yup, they never done so on-panel and there's no reason to suppose they did so off-panel.

Limbo won

Proved that by debunking the possibilities you gave on Madara beating them himself and Naruto releasing them off.

Naruto's clones didn't get affected by IT before Limbo defeated them

Limbo are already roaming free when people are getting tied up through Shinju tree.

Limbo Clones defeated Naruto's clones before the Limbo time-limit is up

Hence why they're roaming free.

Even conceding all these claims, you still have no grounds to say that the Limbo Clones have the same amount of chakra as the original.

Because if that's the case, Naruto's clones would be fodder in Taijutsu against him, who is 10x stronger due to all the Bijuu Chakra, and they won't even be able to swap hands. Don't even bring up Kaguya, they have never had a h2h combat.

Limbo eventually won which is all that matters just like how Naruto kept up in a 1v1 against Kaguya who has more chakra but she would eventually win. Yes I'm gonna bring her up because that's how your own reasoning is.

Also, Where did you get this 10x thing? Madara is superior to Naruto in Rinnegan only, Rinnegan does boost chakra.

IT doesn't justify that because they started fighting before that already, not to mention the Limbo clones were created before that so it shouldn't affect their chakra anyway, unless you are saying IT uses up all their Chakra at the same time.

I think you misinterpreted the last paragraph in my last post so I'm gonna explain it further: For all we know from the databook, Limbo comes back to Madara after a certain amount of time and Naruto's clones disapeared so Limbo won before the time limit, further enforcing their superiority.

Ok now I get what you mean. But you failed to prove that they "win", so that's that.

See above.

ok.

We're just running in circles over here so let me just point out the holes in your argument.

1- Your argument works on the assumption that sensing chakra is the same as sensing Reiatsu when they're not the same thing.

Reiatsu is the physical force/pressure that a person’s Reiryoku creates when released while Chakra is the combination of spiritual force and physical stamina

2- You seem to think Aizen's transcendancy of Reiatsu is same as Six paths chakra's enhancement over regular chakra when it's not, Aizen's reiatsu is transcendent in that he transcended hollows and Soulreapers, that is not the same relation between Six paths chakra and regular chakra.

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3- Even if we supposed chakra and reiatsu were the same things, you'd need to prove that Aizen has Reiatsu on the level of Naruto's who is more powerful thus has more chakra than Juubito(by your own way of reasoning) who in return has more chakra than second form Juubi who in return has more chakra than first form Juubi with this amount of chakra:

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4- Aizen's sensing is not on the level of Six paths paths sage mode Naruto. Aizen's sensing isn't even on the level as Sage mode Naruto who can sense a war in a different country as if he was watching it.

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5- Aizen explicitely couldn't sense the Reiatsu of Ichigo who was standing on a different dimension/Plane.

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___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

All in all, your whole argument is based on associating two completely different characters from two different series with different energies and different reserves of those energies through headcanon and faulty reasoning.

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#173 Edited by Rabii99 (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

Bro talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. I have said MULTIPLE TIMES NOW that the point is that they are making contact. On top of that, how do you not see that what you are saying in the same fucking sentence is contradicting your point of view??????

No, that wasn't the point you were making. You've just made it up because you're cornered. You said that Sakura attacked and defended against Limbo:

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If she never attacked, then how is madara blocking? Do you think madara limbo clone blocked air? What exactly do you think happens when a madara limbo clone blocks something? lol Do you know what attacking or blocking means? We are using the same words but somehow coming to different conculsions which makes me believe that you actually dont know what youre saying. Youre saying that sakura never attacked, but then youre saying that Madara limbo clone blocked an attack that NEVER HAPPENED?????? That makes no fucking sense.

I clearly said "Sakura never attacked Limbo", she attacks Madara not his limbo clones . Ironic that you claim I don't know what I'm saying yet you can't even properly read and keep contradicting yourself.

Bruuuuhh. in the same fucking post i said why it might be "possible". And i even posted ANOTHER gif of a character using an ability. What the fuck do you mean i need to back up that statement? This is the equivalent of you saying - for example - " Rinnegan has the ability to rip out souls, so people with rinnegan should be able to see bleach characters, who can only be seen by special humans, soul reapers, or hollows in bleach." Then i tell you to back up that statement. And tell you to prove to me that a naruto character can see a bleach character when it never happened in naruto? Do you understand how dumb that sounds? You missed an entire point again so ill restate this one for you as well. actually ill just copy and paste so you can know that i said it b4.

And I'm asking you to properly backup these posibilities with actual proof or they will remain possibilies in your own brain.

Possibly, I think its within the realm of bleach abilities to open the barrier that masks limbos visibility. I never said that kido would hit a limbo clone, at all actually. re read. I literally said this is a possibility at the end of my post lol. re read.Soul society, hueco mundo, and the human realm are ALL "adjacent" worlds. None of them are connected outside of one of the only ways, using gargantia. Ulquiorra, a character people dont even consider top tier can casually open this dimension to move through all of these worlds.

You need to prove that they'd able to open portal to dimension that limbo while existing in it can interact with an other dimension and fight Naruto/Sasuke.

First of all, i claimed that we dont know if they can be hurt by physical attacks. AND THEN IN THIS VERY SENTENCE, YOURE GONNA TELL ME THAT THEY GOT HURT AFTER YOU TRIED TO TELL ME PREVIOUSLY THAT THEY CANT BE? ??? ??????

Wtf is this nonsense... when did I ever say that they got hurt by physical attacks. The scan that I posted clearly says the opposite.

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Second of all, you are using the words attack, see, and sense all interchangeably.. To attack is NOT to see. To see is NOT to sense. To sense is NOT to attack. These 3 different things, are NOT THE SAME. I understand why youre getting so confused now, english must not be your native language, so ill help you out buddy. In this sense attacking refers to using a fist, foot, arm, leg, weapon, or etc to HIT/MAKE CONTACT with something. It does not matter if that "something" does not take damage, the fact of the matter is that it made CONTACT with whatever was hitting it.

English is my first language, buddy. Ironic that you say such a thing when you write "cannon" instead of "canon". I'm using those words interchangeably because you claimed Sakura attacked and defended against limbo.

Third. how the fuck is it head cannon to say that they were stopped? Naruto literally made clones that were fighting on par with limbo clones, they were IN FACT being stopped. thats far from head cannon... And naruto clones vs limbo clones. we dont KNOW if limbo clones took damage from naruto clones, that certainly wasnt implied, especially after it was told to us that they cant take damage. SO, Youre using head cannon by saying and i quote - "see them/sensethem throught Rinnegan/Six Paths Sage and hurt them through Six Paths chakra"

Limbo won against Naruto's clones so limbo were delayed not "stopped". I'm not using head canon when I say that Naruto/Sasuke can hurt them through six paths chakra, it's straight from the manga.

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#174 Posted by ourmanuel (11428 posts) - - Show Bio

Aizen can’t see limbo lol.

Not like it matters anyways, seeing as limbo is trash.

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#175 Posted by KingogKings777 (2065 posts) - - Show Bio

Aizen can’t see limbo lol.

Not like it matters anyways, seeing as limbo is trash.

but but they kicked the bijuu

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#176 Posted by Allellujah (66 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99: No, that wasn't point you were making. You've just made it up because you're cornered. You said that Sakura attacked and defended against Limbo

What the fuck ever bro lmao. if you werent such a dumb ass and you could read then you would know that in my previous postS that my main point is that they make contact. It doesnt matter if thats What you got from what i said before. thats what im saying RIGHT NOW.

I clearly said "Sakura never attacked Limbo", she attacks Madara not his limbo clones . Ironic that you claim I don't know what I'm saying yet you can't even properly read and keep contradicting yourself.

Please look at this gif. I know it might be hard because of whatever is wrong with your eyes but its only 10 seconds.

she 100% did NOT hit madara in this. as a normal person could CLEARLY see but I guess its hard for you to see so ill just have to keep telling you that she didnt, this is about the 3rd or 4th time now that i posted this gif btw. lol, ths is her hitting madara and not the limbo clone huh? im contradicting myself huh? Amazing.

Bruuuuhh. in the same fucking post i said why it might be "possible". And i even posted ANOTHER gif of a character using an ability. What the fuck do you mean i need to back up that statement? This is the equivalent of you saying - for example - " Rinnegan has the ability to rip out souls, so people with rinnegan should be able to see bleach characters, who can only be seen by special humans, soul reapers, or hollows in bleach." Then i tell you to back up that statement. And tell you to prove to me that a naruto character can see a bleach character when it never happened in naruto? Do you understand how dumb that sounds? You missed an entire point again so ill restate this one for you as well. actually ill just copy and paste so you can know that i said it b4.

And I'm asked you to properly backup these posibilities with actual proof or they will remain possibilies in your own brain.

Have you never seen bleach? Read it? They literally use garganta to go to soul society, hueco mundo. or the human world. This isnt just in my head bro, youre fucking delusional. -A Garganta is a spiritual pathway connecting Hueco Mundo to other worlds. Besides the Human World and Soul Society, it can also open in the Dangai. A turbulence of Reishi blows within Garganta. To move through it, travelers must create footholds using the Reishi.- copy and paste this statement and see where it takes you if you think im just making these things up lmao.

Possibly, I think its within the realm of bleach abilities to open the barrier that masks limbos visibility. I never said that kido would hit a limbo clone, at all actually. re read. I literally said this is a possibility at the end of my post lol. re read.Soul society, hueco mundo, and the human realm are ALL "adjacent" worlds. None of them are connected outside of one of the only ways, using gargantia. Ulquiorra, a character people dont even consider top tier can casually open this dimension to move through all of these worlds.

You need to prove that they'd able to open portal to dimension that limbo while existing in it can interact with an other dimensions and fight Naruto/Sasuke.

The "proof" for the "POSSIBILITY" is the through the use of garganta you mongoloid. i guess you dont know what it means when someone says something is POSSIBLE either lol. Possible does not mean probable. Google the two words since you dont know the difference, im pretty much done teaching you.

Wtf is this nonsense... when did I ever say that they got hurt by physical attacks.The scan that I posted clearly says the opposite.

Ironically, you're the idiot when you went up against the manga and claimed Sakura attacked.

As for Naruto and Sasuke attacking Limbo, they can see them/sense them throught Rinnegan/Six Paths Sage and hurt them through Six Paths chakra. If you'd want to argue that bleach characters have either of that then be my guest. That wouldn't be far-fetched considering you claimed

does your own post answer your question now? you literally typed this yourself lmfao. jesus mother fucking christ.

English is my first language, buddy. Ironic that you say such a thing when you write "cannon" instead of "canon". I'm using those words interchangeably because you've claimed Sakura sensed, attacked and defended against limbo.

I mean, thats one typo that youve noticed that I made. anyone on this thread could read any one of your posts and find MULTIPLE typos in each one, so dont start that with me lol, and honestly im not petty enough to go and look for them, and because you seem like the guy to go back and edit your posts ive already quoted them so i can still see the dumb ass mistakes youve made with spelling as well, friend.

And i never once said sakura SENSED the madara limbo clone. I did say she attacked and though i didnt mean it sure i implied she defended too lol. But regardless of that. RIGHT NOW im saying sakura attacked a limbo clone. as i showed with the fucking gif. not defended. youre just an idiot looking for a tiny scapegoat.

Limbo won against Naruto's clones so limbo were delayed not "stopped". I'm not using head canon when I say that Naruto/Sasuke can hurt them through six paths chakra, it's straight from the manga.

yes, i used delay and stopped interchangeably, but thats not even the main point. my point was that they COULD be delayed, they CAN be attacked. And naruto hurt the REAL madara with his sage of six paths chakra, not the limbo clones, like you said previously.

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#177 Edited by Rabii99 (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@allellujah said:

@rabii99: No, that wasn't point you were making. You've just made it up because you're cornered. You said that Sakura attacked and defended against Limbo

What the fuck ever bro lmao. if you werent such a dumb ass and you could read then you would know that in my previous postS that my main point is that they make contact. It doesnt matter if thats What you got from what i said before. thats what im saying RIGHT NOW.

If your main point was that they can make contact then your choice of words is very bad, so bad that you write things like Sakura attacked and defended against Limbo yet expect people to understand that it only means "contact can be made with limbo" and not that Sakura can detect thus attack/defense against limbo.

I clearly said "Sakura never attacked Limbo", she attacks Madara not his limbo clones . Ironic that you claim I don't know what I'm saying yet you can't even properly read and keep contradicting yourself.

Please look at this gif. I know it might be hard because of whatever is wrong with your eyes but its only 10 seconds.

she 100% did NOT hit madara in this. as a normal person could CLEARLY see but I guess its hard for you to see so ill just have to keep telling you that she didnt, this is about the 3rd or 4th time now that i posted this gif btw. lol, ths is her hitting madara and not the limbo clone huh? im contradicting myself huh? Amazing.

You don't just have poor word choice, you also don't understand what the words you're using mean.

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To attack is to try to hurt or defeat someone/something. When you're saying that Sakura "attacked" limbo you're saying she had the intent to do so, meaning she knew where they were there.

Instead, you should say "Sakura's punch got blocked by limbo" that would prove that they can make physical contact without implying that Sakura can detect limbo.

I previously stated Sakura made physical contact with limbo. You're wasting my time and yours.

"Let me just repeat myself again, my friend. Sakura never attacks Limbo, Sakura tries to rush Madara, gets pierced by a TSB rod then tries to punch Madara but gets the punch blocked by limbo that she, by her own statement thinks is an invisible wall and doesn't know what it is."

Bruuuuhh. in the same fucking post i said why it might be "possible". And i even posted ANOTHER gif of a character using an ability. What the fuck do you mean i need to back up that statement? This is the equivalent of you saying - for example - " Rinnegan has the ability to rip out souls, so people with rinnegan should be able to see bleach characters, who can only be seen by special humans, soul reapers, or hollows in bleach." Then i tell you to back up that statement. And tell you to prove to me that a naruto character can see a bleach character when it never happened in naruto? Do you understand how dumb that sounds? You missed an entire point again so ill restate this one for you as well. actually ill just copy and paste so you can know that i said it b4.

And I'm asked you to properly backup these posibilities with actual proof or they will remain possibilies in your own brain.

Have you never seen bleach? Read it? They literally use garganta to go to soul society, hueco mundo. or the human world. This isnt just in my head bro, youre fucking delusional. -A Garganta is a spiritual pathway connecting Hueco Mundo to other worlds. Besides the Human World and Soul Society, it can also open in the Dangai. A turbulence of Reishi blows within Garganta. To move through it, travelers must create footholds using the Reishi.- copy and paste this statement and see where it takes you if you think im just making these things up lmao.

You just keep repeating obvious stuff that doesn't prove anything. Prove that limbo realm functions the same way as those dimensions, if anything, the closest thing you'd find to Limbo being in a different dimension yet physically interacting with people/objects in a different dimension is Ichigo doing the same thing and I hope you're not going to argue that Guarganta can open a portal to the dimension Ichigo is standing on.

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Possibly, I think its within the realm of bleach abilities to open the barrier that masks limbos visibility. I never said that kido would hit a limbo clone, at all actually. re read. I literally said this is a possibility at the end of my post lol. re read.Soul society, hueco mundo, and the human realm are ALL "adjacent" worlds. None of them are connected outside of one of the only ways, using gargantia. Ulquiorra, a character people dont even consider top tier can casually open this dimension to move through all of these worlds.

You need to prove that they'd able to open portal to dimension that limbo while existing in it can interact with an other dimensions and fight Naruto/Sasuke.

The "proof" for the "POSSIBILITY" is the through the use of garganta you mongoloid. i guess you dont know what it means when someone says something is POSSIBLE either lol. Possible does not mean probable. Google the two words since you dont know the difference, im pretty much done teaching you.

See the paragraph above.

Wtf is this nonsense... when did I ever say that they got hurt by physical attacks.The scan that I posted clearly says the opposite.

Ironically, you're the idiot when you went up against the manga and claimed Sakura attacked.

As for Naruto and Sasuke attacking Limbo, they can see them/sense them throught Rinnegan/Six Paths Sage and hurt them through Six Paths chakra. If you'd want to argue that bleach characters have either of that then be my guest. That wouldn't be far-fetched considering you claimed

does your own post answer your question now? you literally typed this yourself lmfao. jesus mother fucking christ.

I don't get what you're trying to say due to your very poor word choice. I've used the scan of limbo getting hurt by SP chakra several times.

English is my first language, buddy. Ironic that you say such a thing when you write "cannon" instead of "canon". I'm using those words interchangeably because you've claimed Sakura sensed, attacked and defended against limbo.

I mean, thats one typo that youve noticed that I made. anyone on this thread could read any one of your posts and find MULTIPLE typos in each one, so dont start that with me lol, and honestly im not petty enough to go and look for them, and because you seem like the guy to go back and edit your posts ive already quoted them so i can still see the dumb ass mistakes youve made with spelling as well, friend.

Making the grammatical mistake of typing cannon instead of canon in a fictional debating forum is petty.

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And i never once said sakura SENSED the madara limbo clone. I did say she attacked and though i didnt mean it sure i implied she defended too lol. But regardless of that. RIGHT NOW im saying sakura attacked a limbo clone. as i showed with the fucking gif. not defended. youre just an idiot looking for a tiny scapegoat.

I have screenshots. You claimed Sakura defensed/attacked against limbo, something that she requires sensing to do.

-

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-

Limbo won against Naruto's clones so limbo were delayed not "stopped". I'm not using head canon when I say that Naruto/Sasuke can hurt them through six paths chakra, it's straight from the manga.

yes, i used delay and stopped interchangeably, but thats not even the main point. my point was that they COULD be delayed, they CAN be attacked.

Yes, they can be attacked, but the word "attack" requires intent of harming/defeating so one would need to know limbo is there to have an intent of harming it. Your poor choice of words caused us to waste time meaninglessly.

And naruto hurt the REAL madara with his sage of six paths chakra, not the limbo clones, like you said previously.

Six paths chakra hurts Madara. Limbo is a Madara from an adjacent world.

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#178 Posted by Allellujah (66 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99: I previously stated Sakura made physical contact with limbo. You're wasting my time and yours.

you said on multiple occasions that, that wasnt the case.

You just keep repeating obvious stuff that doesn't prove anything. Prove that limbo realm functions the same way as those dimensions, if anything, the closest thing you'd find to Limbo being in a different dimension yet physically interacting with people/objects in a different dimension is Ichigo doing the same thing and I hope you're not going to argue that Guarganta can open a portal to the dimension Ichigo is standing on.

Perceiving this phantom is impossible, the enemy's unpreparedness invites disaster! A person who possesses the Rinnegan can intervene in an adjacent world, an extremely distant world. In that space a shadow is produced, which everyone who is connected with current world can't feel. Not only will the jutsu user gain duplicate of himself with equal ability, but it will also be invisible. Squaring of against a user, counter attack is impossible, going up against this ability will result in one losing against such a powerful enemy. The Rinnegan can shape one shadow. With a complete set of two Rinnegan it can shape four. When fighting the enemy in close combat the shadow will stay away. But after a time the shadow will return

What exactly do you think this wording means??? another planet? lol

I don't get what you're trying to say due to your very poor word choice. I've used the scan of limbo getting hurt by SP chakra several times.

I literally copy and pasted what you yourself typed. if you dont understand that then try to step into my shoes for a moment buddy.

I have screenshots. You claimed Sakura defensed/attacked against limbo, something that she requires sensing to do.

OKay. i literally said. in the very LAST post. actually im done repeating myself lol.

Yes, they can be attacked, but the word "attack" requires intent of harming/defeating so one would need to know limbo is there to have an intent of harming it. Your poor choice of words caused us to waste time meaninglessly.

okay sir. even if this is the case, i used hit AND made contact with on multiple occasions. youre acting like you didnt understand whatsoever but literally from this post you more or less agree with what im saying. im calling it at that tbh. you can discord me if you wanna go further, i also agree with you. the trash way in which you type did indeed waste alot of time.

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#179 Posted by Rabii99 (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99: I previously stated Sakura made physical contact with limbo. You're wasting my time and yours.

you said on multiple occasions that, that wasnt the case.

No, man . I literally wrote:

"Let me just repeat myself again, my friend. Sakura never attacks Limbo, Sakura tries to rush Madara, gets pierced by a TSB rod then tries to punch Madara but gets the punch blocked by limbo that she, by her own statement thinks is an invisible wall and doesn't know what it is."

How are limbo supposed to block a punch without physical contact?

You just keep repeating obvious stuff that doesn't prove anything. Prove that limbo realm functions the same way as those dimensions, if anything, the closest thing you'd find to Limbo being in a different dimension yet physically interacting with people/objects in a different dimension is Ichigo doing the same thing and I hope you're not going to argue that Guarganta can open a portal to the dimension Ichigo is standing on.

Perceiving this phantom is impossible, the enemy's unpreparedness invites disaster! A person who possesses the Rinnegan can intervene in an adjacent world, an extremely distant world. In that space a shadow is produced, which everyone who is connected with current world can't feel. Not only will the jutsu user gain duplicate of himself with equal ability, but it will also be invisible. Squaring of against a user, counter attack is impossible, going up against this ability will result in one losing against such a powerful enemy. The Rinnegan can shape one shadow. With a complete set of two Rinnegan it can shape four. When fighting the enemy in close combat the shadow will stay away. But after a time the shadow will return

What exactly do you think this wording means??? another planet? lol

The "world" right there means another dimension/plane/reall not another planet.

I don't get what you're trying to say due to your very poor word choice. I've used the scan of limbo getting hurt by SP chakra several times.

I literally copy and pasted what you yourself typed. if you dont understand that then try to step into my shoes for a moment buddy.

My phrase is a reply to this:

does your own post answer your question now? you literally typed this yourself lmfao. jesus mother fucking christ.

It implies that I said Limbo doesn't make physical contact but I didn't.

I have screenshots. You claimed Sakura defensed/attacked against limbo, something that she requires sensing to do.

OKay. i literally said. in the very LAST post. actually im done repeating myself lol.

Yes, they can be attacked, but the word "attack" requires intent of harming/defeating so one would need to know limbo is there to have an intent of harming it. Your poor choice of words caused us to waste time meaninglessly.

okay sir. even if this is the case, i used hit AND made contact with on multiple occasions. youre acting like you didnt understand whatsoever but literally from this post you more or less agree with what im saying. im calling it at that tbh. you can discord me if you wanna go further, i also agree with you. the trash way in which you type did indeed waste alot of time.

I can see that it's our fault both over here: You because you used words like "attack" even though that word requires intent of harming/defeating thus saying "Sakura attacked limbo" would imply she knows it's there and where it is. Me for not directly saying that Madara's limbo can make physical contact.

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#180 Edited by Revold (752 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99 said:

All in all, your whole argument is based on associating two completely different characters from two different series with different energies and different reserves of those energies through headcanon and faulty reasoning.

This isn't my whole argument. Heck, it isn't even my main argument.

For the sake of time and clarity I'm first going to summarise the points on whether Madara's Clones have the same chakra as his original self:

My argument: No, Limbo clones only had comparable chakra with Naruto's clones, because for the brief moments we have seen them fight, they've only swapped hands with Naruto's clones.

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If the Limbo Clones has the same Chakra as the Juubi Jinchuriki, it would be at least 2x that of Naruto with half a Kyuubi, that means 10x that of Naruto's clones of 4. If that's the case, he would've immediately overpowered the Shadow Clones like how Kaguya did to Naruto, or blitz them.

However, what we saw was that they were fighting on equal grounds with neither side seem to have a clear advantage. Like it or not that's all that we've seen directly. You can still use statements or databook later, but that's not going to change this fact.

This is as fair as a comparison of chakra can go because neither side were using any special Jutsu but just old fashioned h2h, they both have comparable physiques and sensory, if anything its Madara that has an advantage (in terms of fighting skills).

Your argument: Yes, because Limbo won. And because:

Sasuke straight up says: "his shadows are also outside" "if they kill the two of us everything's over". Why would he say that if they're stronger than the Limbo clones?

Firstly, he would say that because Limbo Clones stood a chance at killing them, especially if Naruto is caught in Infinite Tsukuyomi. That doesn't mean Naruto is weaker than them. I don't understand why you prefer to infer statements over unambiguous anti-feats I showed you.

Secondly, we don't know how the Limbo Clones won. You can claim that they didn't use Rinnegan, but there's no real reason for them not to use it when we know that they are capable of it according to the databook. And even if they didn't, they still stand an advantage in that Madara has a pseudo-immortal body.

And regardless of whether Limbo Clones had a non-chakra advantage over the Shadow Clones, the fact that Limbo clones won is irrelevant. It doesn't contradict my claim that they have comparable chakra to Naruto, nor does it prove that they have the same chakra as the original. Comparable Chakra only means that either side stood a roughly equal chance at winning. It doesn't change the fact that for the time that we could see them fighting, they were fighting on equal grounds, and neither side seems to stand an advantage.

This is a much easier problem to tackle because it is strictly a Naruto problem, with no Bleach tie-in headcanon involved. Limbo Clones does not have the same Chakra as the original, regardless but especially if the Clones have the same abilities as the original.

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#181 Edited by Rabii99 (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@revold:

This isn't my whole argument. Heck, it isn't even my main argument.

For the sake of time and clarity I'm first going to summarise the points on whether Madara's Clones have the same chakra as his original self:

That paragraph you responded to here serves to summarize your "Aizen can sense limbo" argument(which you have come to realise that it's full of holes) not the "Limbo have less chakra than Madara" argument.

My argument: No, Limbo clones only had comparable chakra with Naruto's clones, because for the brief moments we have seen them fight, they've only swapped hands with Naruto's clones.

Your reasoning gets contradicted by the manga. Naruto keeps up with Kaguya who has more chakra so according to your reasoning Naruto is comparable to Kaguya in chakra which isn't the case. Limbo and Naruto's clones are no different, the clones managed to keep up but the shadows eventually won, that doesn't mean they have comparable chakra levels.

As a note, I think the way you're trying to compare Naruto characters is too focused on chakra which may be due to the Influence of Bleach where Reiatsu is more important and abilities can be surpressed with it. Chakra advantage is important but not all that matters. Kakashi with a portion of six paths chakra can harm Kaguya herself without the latter being able to surpress the former's abilities.

If the Limbo Clones has the same Chakra as the Juubi Jinchuriki, it would be at least 2x that of Naruto with half a Kyuubi, that means 10x that of Naruto's clones of 4. If that's the case, he would've immediately overpowered the Shadow Clones like how Kaguya did to Naruto, or blitz them.

Your argument falls short in here as well, Naruto doesn't have just half kurama, Naruto has parts of the Bijuu as well and even more than that, he has the Bijuu's full cooperation that is best showcased in the Sage arts with certain Bijuus specific chakra natures like Lava. SOSP Madara is only superior to SOSP Naruto in that Madara's parts of the Bijuu's are more than Naruto's not 2x of Naruto.

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However, what we saw was that they were fighting on equal grounds with neither side seem to have a clear advantage. Like it or not that's all that we've seen directly. You can still use statements or databook later, but that's not going to change this fact.

"My facts are more credible than statements or databook"

I'm sorry but all evidence are against your argument at this point. Not only does the Databook say that limbo is literally a duplicate Madara from an adjacent world/Dimension:

"Perceiving this phantom is impossible, the enemy's unpreparedness invites disaster! A person who possesses the Rinnegan can intervene in an adjacent world, an extremely distant world. In that space a shadow is produced, which everyone who is connected with current world can't feel. Not only will the jutsu user gain duplicate of himself with equal ability, but it will also be invisible. Squaring of against a user, counter attack is impossible, going up against this ability will result in one losing against such a powerful enemy. The Rinnegan can shape one shadow. With a complete set of two Rinnegan it can shape four. When fighting the enemy in close combat the shadow will stay away. But after a time the shadow will return"

They also defeated Naruto's clones since your counter-arguments failed to disprove mine leaving it as the only possibility:

You claimed Naruto released them off but Naruto literally made them to deal with Limbo and has no reason to release the jutsu and waste time that his clones can buy out.

No Caption Provided

You also claimed that Madara finished them off but Madara was still flying, in the process of binding people through Shinju tree and only gets back to ground after the Limbo clones were already roaming free.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

To enforce that they won even more, Sasuke considered the possibility of Limbo killing them and even if we assumed he was only talking about himself, Sasuke won't consider the possibility of 4 Naruto clones killing him.

Your argument: Yes, because Limbo won. And because: Sasuke straight up says: "his shadows are also outside" "if they kill the two of us everything's over". Why would he say that if they're stronger than the Limbo clones?

Trying to twist what I said is not gonna help your argument. "Sasuke claiming limbo can kill them" was only an "also", just a cherry on the cake.

No Caption Provided

The real cake or the real "because" as to why Limbo won was that the counter-arguments on how "Naruto's clones disapeared" were proven wrong leaving mine as the only possibility. I elaborated on your counter-arguments above.

Secondly, we don't know how the Limbo Clones won. You can claim that they didn't use Rinnegan, but there's no real reason for them not to use it when we know that they are capable of it according to the databook. And even if they didn't, they still stand an advantage in that Madara has a pseudo-immortal body.

It's not a matter of them not being able to use Rinnegan, it's a matter of the writer never having them use it, they were restricted by from abilities that Kishimoto himself stated they can use just like how they didn't just pull perfect Susanoos right here:

No Caption Provided

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Or why Limbo didn't cast and swing a lightfang the opposite direction original Madara swung making it impossible for Naruto to dodge.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

I'm sorry but I don't think anyone is going to take your claims over the writer's own history of not having limbo use Rinnegan. If you're going to claim limbo used Rinnegan then you'd need to prove Kishimoto changed his mind for this fight only.

And regardless of whether Limbo Clones had a non-chakra advantage over the Shadow Clones, the fact that Limbo clones won is irrelevant. It doesn't contradict my claim that they have comparable chakra to Naruto, nor does it prove that they have the same chakra as the original.

It it very relevant, going by your logic, they won so they have more chakra. How much more? So much more chakra that Sasuke considers the possibility of limbo killing them/him and are duplicates of Madara according the Databook.

Comparable Chakra only means that either side stood a roughly equal chance at winning. It doesn't change the fact that for the time that we could see them fighting, they were fighting on equal grounds, and neither side seems to stand an advantage.

The clones didn't stand a "rougthly equal chance" they took down no limbo clones and by the time IT was casted limbo were already roaming free.

This is a much easier problem to tackle because it is strictly a Naruto problem, with no Bleach tie-in headcanon involved. Limbo Clones does not have the same Chakra as the original, regardless but especially if the Clones have the same abilities as the original.

What happened in the manga and what the Databook states don't seem to agree with that.

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#182 Posted by weebbicboi (1172 posts) - - Show Bio

3 eyed Maddy still solos the verse

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#183 Posted by JOVIOLMA (6161 posts) - - Show Bio
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#184 Edited by Revold (752 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99 said:

@revold:

This isn't my whole argument. Heck, it isn't even my main argument.

For the sake of time and clarity I'm first going to summarise the points on whether Madara's Clones have the same chakra as his original self:

That paragraph you responded to here serves to summarize your "Aizen can sense limbo" argument(which you have come to realise that it's full of holes) not the "Limbo have less chakra than Madara" argument.

I'm willing to forgo the argument that Aizen can sense Limbo as like any other cross-Universe concepts it depends on many factors, hence not being my main argument in the first place. I thought the second argument is a much easier topic to resolve since its a strictly Naruto problem but seems like I might be mistaken.

My argument: No, Limbo clones only had comparable chakra with Naruto's clones, because for the brief moments we have seen them fight, they've only swapped hands with Naruto's clones.

Your reasoning gets contradicted by the manga. Naruto keeps up with Kaguya who has more chakra so according to your reasoning Naruto is comparable to Kaguya in chakra which isn't the case. Limbo and Naruto's clones are no different, the clones managed to keep up but the shadows eventually won, that doesn't mean they have comparable chakra levels.

As a note, I think the way you're trying to compare Naruto characters is too focused on chakra which may be due to the Influence of Bleach where Reiatsu is more important and abilities can be suppressed with it. Chakra advantage is important but not all that matters. Kakashi with a portion of six paths chakra can harm Kaguya herself without the latter being able to surpress the former's abilities.

Firstly I don't disagree that stats in Naruto, such as durability and attack potency, is not a product of Chakra alone, unlike Bleach where the passive Reiatsu can render their weaker opponent's attack useless. Naruto depends on Jutsu, in this case, you pit Kaguya's regeneration/chakra absorption jutsu against Kamui Shuriken. Kakashi was using Kamui Shuriken which is a Space-Time Ninjutsu that negates durability, hence Kaguya wasn't able to nullify it despite being able to absorb all chakra-based attacks. Six Paths Chakra is not the factor here, unlike the case of Limbo.

Second, for the same reason, you can't compare Naruto to Kaguya because they both have very different arsenals. In the time Naruto vs Kaguya without any outside help, Naruto had to constantly trick Kaguya to prolong the fight, which is far from my idea of fighting on equal grounds. The difference between this matchup and the Limbo vs Shadow clones matchup is that the latter did not use any special Jutsu. The Shadow Clones managed to keep up with the Limbo Clones (or vice versa) is evidence that they have comparable Chakra. Limbo Clones eventual victory doesn't make this false. It just means Limbo Clones might have an advantage in terms of chakra or otherwise (fighting skills, immortality etc), but we know that advantage is not very great.

Now when Naruto Kurama Avatar and Sasuke's Susanoo fought on equal grounds, or that Sasuke was using Chidori while Naruto uses Rasengan, then I agree their results (speed, potency etc) is not a good indication of Chakra Levels. Because they are using different Jutsus. Unless you are telling me Chakra amplifies the basic physicals differently for different people, then I'd want to see what makes Madara's amp so much smaller than Naruto's.

If the Limbo Clones has the same Chakra as the Juubi Jinchuriki, it would be at least 2x that of Naruto with half a Kyuubi, that means 10x that of Naruto's clones of 4. If that's the case, he would've immediately overpowered the Shadow Clones like how Kaguya did to Naruto, or blitz them.

Your argument falls short in here as well, Naruto doesn't have just half kurama, Naruto has parts of the Bijuu as well and even more than that, he has the Bijuu's full cooperation that is best showcased in the Sage arts with certain Bijuus specific chakra natures like Lava. SOSP Madara is only superior to SOSP Naruto in that Madara's parts of the Bijuu's are more than Naruto's not 2x of Naruto.

Naruto's Bijuu Chakra is only a slim compared to Madara's. I believe you know where to find the scan for that.

And what are we arguing here?? When I say "Madara" and "Naruto" I mean including whatever Bijuu Chakra they have. You are trying to argue that Madara without Bijuu is not 2x of Naruto without Bijuu? Is it safe to assume that you think Limbo Clones do not possess the Bijuu Chakra?

However, what we saw was that they were fighting on equal grounds with neither side seem to have a clear advantage. Like it or not that's all that we've seen directly. You can still use statements or databook later, but that's not going to change this fact.

"My facts are more credible than statements or databook"

I'm sorry but all evidence are against your argument at this point. Not only does the Databook say that limbo is literally a duplicate Madara from an adjacent world/Dimension:

"Perceiving this phantom is impossible, the enemy's unpreparedness invites disaster! A person who possesses the Rinnegan can intervene in an adjacent world, an extremely distant world. In that space a shadow is produced, which everyone who is connected with current world can't feel. Not only will the jutsu user gain duplicate of himself with equal ability, but it will also be invisible. Squaring of against a user, counter attack is impossible, going up against this ability will result in one losing against such a powerful enemy. The Rinnegan can shape one shadow. With a complete set of two Rinnegan it can shape four. When fighting the enemy in close combat the shadow will stay away. But after a time the shadow will return"

Why do you bring this up again? I already said before "duplicate of himself" doesn't suggest anything about Chakra, even if they are identical to the original atom-to-atom. I would gladly take it if the databook did say so, but it certainly didn't even imply it.

They also defeated Naruto's clones since your counter-arguments failed to disprove mine leaving it as the only possibility:

You claimed Naruto released them off but Naruto literally made them to deal with Limbo and has no reason to release the jutsu and waste time that his clones can buy out.

You also claimed that Madara finished them off but Madara was still flying, in the process of binding people through Shinju tree and only gets back to ground after the Limbo clones were already roaming free.

To enforce that they won even more, Sasuke considered the possibility of Limbo killing them and even if we assumed he was only talking about himself, Sasuke won't consider the possibility of 4 Naruto clones killing him.

Okay sure they won. Limbo Clones are superior. But remember what are our arguments?

Me: Limbo Clones have comparable Chakra to Shadow Clones. Limbo Clones eventual victory or superiority doesn't discredit this fact.

You: Limbo Clones have the same Chakra as original Madara (idk if you mean including Juubi or not at this point). Limbo Clones eventual victory or superiority doesn't prove this fact.

Your argument: Yes, because Limbo won. And because: Sasuke straight up says: "his shadows are also outside" "if they kill the two of us everything's over". Why would he say that if they're stronger than the Limbo clones?

Trying to twist what I said is not gonna help your argument. "Sasuke claiming limbo can kill them" was only an "also", just a cherry on the cake.

No Caption Provided

The real cake or the real "because" as to why Limbo won was that the counter-arguments on how "Naruto's clones disapeared" were proven wrong leaving mine as the only possibility. I elaborated on your counter-arguments above.

Forgive me but I have no intention of twisting your argument. The cherry on the cake or not, you keep bringing it out repeatedly even though I've debunked the argument 3 times. You even repeated it again here. So I will repeat it again, it only means that the Limbo Clones have a chance of killing them, by no means Limbo Clones have more Chakra.

And in fact, this is very relevant even for your real cake. Winning =/= more Chakra. Chakra isn't everything, remember? There's still fighting skills and immortality.

Secondly, we don't know how the Limbo Clones won. You can claim that they didn't use Rinnegan, but there's no real reason for them not to use it when we know that they are capable of it according to the databook. And even if they didn't, they still stand an advantage in that Madara has a pseudo-immortal body.

It's not a matter of them not being able to use Rinnegan, it's a matter of the writer never having them use it, they were restricted by from abilities that Kishimoto himself stated they can use just like how they didn't just pull perfect Susanoos right here:

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Or why Limbo didn't cast and swing a lightfang the opposite direction original Madara swung making it impossible for Naruto to dodge.

I'm sorry but I don't think anyone is going to take your claims over the writer's own history of not having limbo use Rinnegan. If you're going to claim limbo used Rinnegan then you'd need to prove Kishimoto changed his mind for this fight only.

Sure. Feel free to say that they didn't use Rinnegan. This is just the cherry on my cake.

And regardless of whether Limbo Clones had a non-chakra advantage over the Shadow Clones, the fact that Limbo clones won is irrelevant. It doesn't contradict my claim that they have comparable chakra to Naruto, nor does it prove that they have the same chakra as the original.

It it very relevant, going by your logic, they won so they have more chakra. How much more? So much more chakra that Sasuke considers the possibility of limbo killing them/him and are duplicates of Madara according the Databook.

See! That Sasuke argument again!

Databook argument again!

Both of which has been debunked many times. I doubt you want me to repeat them again here.

Comparable Chakra only means that either side stood a roughly equal chance at winning. It doesn't change the fact that for the time that we could see them fighting, they were fighting on equal grounds, and neither side seems to stand an advantage.

The clones didn't stand a "rougthly equal chance" they took down no limbo clones and by the time IT was casted limbo were already roaming free.

By "roughly equal chance" I mean not taking down the Shadow Clones during the time when we see them fighting.

Imo, the Limbo Clones probably poofed them off when the Shadow Clones got affected by IT. That explains why the Limbo Clones didn't attack them before Sasuke shields them with his Susanoo (after Madara cast the IT, but before the light reaches the ground, which is a pretty small time frame to be a coincidence that IT is not the factor here).

But honestly, that doesn't even matter. It's just another cherry on my cake.

This is a much easier problem to tackle because it is strictly a Naruto problem, with no Bleach tie-in headcanon involved. Limbo Clones does not have the same Chakra as the original, regardless but especially if the Clones have the same abilities as the original.

What happened in the manga and what the Databook states don't seem to agree with that.

See above.

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#185 Edited by Helloman (29886 posts) - - Show Bio

Still no good arguments for Aizen. He is not this strong.

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#186 Posted by Rabii99 (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@revold:

I'm willing to forgo the argument that Aizen can sense Limbo as like any other cross-Universe concepts it depends on many factors,

You're willing to let it go because it's a fallacy that is full of holes and is contradicted by both Naruto and Bleach manga.

hence not being my main argument in the first place. I thought the second argument is a much easier topic to resolve since its a strictly Naruto problem but seems like I might be mistaken.

No, it was your main argument. You focused on it more than the second one.

Firstly I don't disagree that stats in Naruto, such as durability and attack potency, is not a product of Chakra alone, unlike Bleach where the passive Reiatsu can render their weaker opponent's attack useless. Naruto depends on Jutsu, in this case, you pit Kaguya's regeneration/chakra absorption jutsu against Kamui Shuriken. Kakashi was using Kamui Shuriken which is a Space-Time Ninjutsu that negates durability, hence Kaguya wasn't able to nullify it despite being able to absorb all chakra-based attacks. Six Paths Chakra is not the factor here, unlike the case of Limbo

That portion of six paths chakra is the factor here, that is how Kakashi went from relative fodder to outspeeding Kaguya with a Kamui Raikiri.

No Caption Provided

.

According to you, he shouldn't be doing that because he has much less chakra and chakra serves to enhance speed.

Why do you bring this up again? I already said before "duplicate of himself" doesn't suggest anything about Chakra, even if they are identical to the original atom-to-atom. I would gladly take it if the databook did say so, but it certainly didn't even imply it.

You're either reaching or don't know what duplicate means:

No Caption Provided

So prove that a "copy of Madara that is exactly like Madara does not have same chakra.

Okay sure they won. Limbo Clones are superior. But remember what are our arguments?

Me: Limbo Clones have comparable Chakra to Shadow Clones. Limbo Clones eventual victory or superiority doesn't discredit this fact.

You: Limbo Clones have the same Chakra as original Madara (idk if you mean including Juubi or not at this point).Limbo Clones eventual victory or superiority doesn't prove this fact.

If you're gonna agree that Limbo won and are superior trying to imply that agreeing with that won't discredit your argument then you've made a mistake as going by your reasoning they won thus they have more chakra not just "comparable".

Forgive me but I have no intention of twisting your argument. The cherry on the cake or not, you keep bringing it out repeatedly even though I've debunked the argument 3 times. You even repeated it again here. So I will repeat it again, it only means that the Limbo Clones have a chance of killing them, by no means Limbo Clones have more Chakra.

Whether intentional or not, saying that the reason behind me claiming Limbo won was Sasuke's statement when it's only an "also" is a twist.

You did not debunk the Sasuke statement argument. Sasuke considered the possibility of limbo killing them/him something that he isn't going to do for Naruto's clones that are "comparable to limbo" according to you.

And in fact, this is very relevant even for your real cake. Winning =/= more Chakra. Chakra isn't everything, remember? There's still fighting skills and immortality.

There's also being able to use techniques like Lava style, Naruto's speed that is no less than equal to Madara's and magnet release sealing

Sure. Feel free to say that they didn't use Rinnegan. This is just the cherry on my cake.

So you can't prove that he changed the writer changed his mind for that fight only? Ok.

See! That Sasuke argument again!

Databook argument again!

Both of which has been debunked many times. I doubt you want me to repeat them again here.

You didn't debunk the Sasuke argument/Databook argument nor do you actually can considering that would be the same as going against the manga and databook themselves.

By "roughly equal chance" I mean not taking down the Shadow Clones during the time when we see them fighting.

Then why even use "rougthly equal chance"? that straight up means they both had an equal chance. Just say that limbo didn't take down the clones in in the time when we see them fighting.

Imo, the Limbo Clones probably poofed them off when the Shadow Clones got affected by IT. That explains why the Limbo Clones didn't attack them before Sasuke shields them with his Susanoo (after Madara cast the IT, but before the light reaches the ground, which is a pretty small time frame to be a coincidence that IT is not the factor here).

But honestly, that doesn't even matter. It's just another cherry on my cake.

Limbo were already roaming free by the time Madara was trying people through Shinju tree.

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#187 Posted by Revold (752 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99: Wait before we continue, do you think that Limbo Clones possess the Juubi chakra as well or no?

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#188 Edited by Revold (752 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99 said:

@revold:

I'm willing to forgo the argument that Aizen can sense Limbo as like any other cross-Universe concepts it depends on many factors,

You're willing to let it go because it's a fallacy that is full of holes and is contradicted by both Naruto and Bleach manga.

hence not being my main argument in the first place. I thought the second argument is a much easier topic to resolve since its a strictly Naruto problem but seems like I might be mistaken.

No, it was your main argument. You focused on it more than the second one.

I find it amusing that you can even argue about what I was thinking. I repeatedly said that it wasn't my main argument, but fine if you don't want to believe me.

Firstly I don't disagree that stats in Naruto, such as durability and attack potency, is not a product of Chakra alone, unlike Bleach where the passive Reiatsu can render their weaker opponent's attack useless. Naruto depends on Jutsu, in this case, you pit Kaguya's regeneration/chakra absorption jutsu against Kamui Shuriken. Kakashi was using Kamui Shuriken which is a Space-Time Ninjutsu that negates durability, hence Kaguya wasn't able to nullify it despite being able to absorb all chakra-based attacks. Six Paths Chakra is not the factor here, unlike the case of Limbo

That portion of six paths chakra is the factor here, that is how Kakashi went from relative fodder to outspeeding Kaguya with a Kamui Raikiri.

No Caption Provided

.

According to you, he shouldn't be doing that because he has much less chakra and chakra serves to enhance speed.

I said physical stats can be used for chakra comparison, only if

  1. Both sides use the same Jutsu. In this case, neither side is using any special Jutsu other than pure Taijutsu. So they are definitely the same. If anything, Madara should have an advantage in fighting style.
  2. Both sides having the same passive abilities, like Six Paths Senjutsu. This isn't quite true as Madara also has immortality. But the key is Naruto Clones has nothing to their advantage that Limbo Clones don't have. So I'm highballing the Limbo Clones already.

However, for the example you give, you are comparing two different stats Kakashi's travel speed with Kaguya's reaction speed, amped by two different Jutsu one Kamui Raikiri and another is Kaguya's Byakugan or whatever else she used. Not to mention you didn't consider the context since it was after a bluff where Kaguya thought that her Ash Bones has hit Kakashi.

Why do you bring this up again? I already said before "duplicate of himself" doesn't suggest anything about Chakra, even if they are identical to the original atom-to-atom. I would gladly take it if the databook did say so, but it certainly didn't even imply it.

You're either reaching or don't know what duplicate means:

No Caption Provided

So prove that a "copy of Madara that is exactly like Madara does not have same chakra.

So you resort to English dictionary? That is the number 1 way people use to infamously take databook statements out of context. Naruto's Clones are also identical to him, even in memories, so much so no Dojutsu could tell the difference. Yet his Chakra is not the same as the original before the cloning. Not to mention the databook didn't say it is duplicating the Juubi as well..

Okay sure they won. Limbo Clones are superior. But remember what are our arguments?

Me: Limbo Clones have comparable Chakra to Shadow Clones. Limbo Clones eventual victory or superiority doesn't discredit this fact.

You: Limbo Clones have the same Chakra as original Madara (idk if you mean including Juubi or not at this point).Limbo Clones eventual victory or superiority doesn't prove this fact.

If you're gonna agree that Limbo won and are superior trying to imply that agreeing with that won't discredit your argument then you've made a mistake as going by your reasoning they won thus they have more chakra not just "comparable".

Superior =/= not comparable. I don't know how else to explain this.

Superior in battle =/= not comparable in Chakra. This is even more true when you consider the Shadow Clones probably got stuck in IT.

Forgive me but I have no intention of twisting your argument. The cherry on the cake or not, you keep bringing it out repeatedly even though I've debunked the argument 3 times. You even repeated it again here. So I will repeat it again, it only means that the Limbo Clones have a chance of killing them, by no means Limbo Clones have more Chakra.

Whether intentional or not, saying that the reason behind me claiming Limbo won was Sasuke's statement when it's only an "also" is a twist.

You did not debunk the Sasuke statement argument. Sasuke considered the possibility of limbo killing them/him something that he isn't going to do for Naruto's clones that are "comparable to limbo" according to you.

Dude, you saying I twist your argument because I present your side argument as your main argument??

Like I said, capable of killing Naruto =/= same Chakra. You said it yourself that Chakra isn't everything, now suddenly it is???

And in fact, this is very relevant even for your real cake. Winning =/= more Chakra. Chakra isn't everything, remember? There's still fighting skills and immortality.

There's also being able to use techniques like Lava style, Naruto's speed that is no less than equal to Madara's and magnet release sealing

Sure. Feel free to say that they didn't use Rinnegan. This is just the cherry on my cake.

So you can't prove that he changed the writer changed his mind for that fight only? Ok.

Naruto's speed is no less than equal? I didn't say it wasn't equal bruh. In fact that was exactly what I argued.

Wait, you now assume Naruto used Lava style and magnet release, but then you demand proof that Madara used Rinnegan abilities? Now you are just reaallly pushing it.

In fact even if he did use it, it doesn't clarify anything about the Limbo Clones' Chakra. It just add more factors and confusion, in the end make it impossible to proof anything. You wanted to use this bad evidence, not me. I never liked going off vague statements like this.

See! That Sasuke argument again!

Databook argument again!

Both of which has been debunked many times. I doubt you want me to repeat them again here.

You didn't debunk the Sasuke argument/Databook argument nor do you actually can considering that would be the same as going against the manga and databook themselves.

By "roughly equal chance" I mean not taking down the Shadow Clones during the time when we see them fighting.

Then why even use "rougthly equal chance"? that straight up means they both had an equal chance. Just say that limbo didn't take down the clones in in the time when we see them fighting.

Huh? You got a problem with me using "roughly"? Cos I'm saying just to protect myself. But if you are willing to admit it, then that's fine with me too.

Imo, the Limbo Clones probably poofed them off when the Shadow Clones got affected by IT. That explains why the Limbo Clones didn't attack them before Sasuke shields them with his Susanoo (after Madara cast the IT, but before the light reaches the ground, which is a pretty small time frame to be a coincidence that IT is not the factor here).

But honestly, that doesn't even matter. It's just another cherry on my cake.

Limbo were already roaming free by the time Madara was trying people through Shinju tree.

And when did Madara tie people with the Tree? That's right, after IT affected the victims.

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#189 Edited by Rabii99 (1478 posts) - - Show Bio

@revold said:
@rabii99 said:

@revold:

I'm willing to forgo the argument that Aizen can sense Limbo as like any other cross-Universe concepts it depends on many factors,

You're willing to let it go because it's a fallacy that is full of holes and is contradicted by both Naruto and Bleach manga.

hence not being my main argument in the first place. I thought the second argument is a much easier topic to resolve since its a strictly Naruto problem but seems like I might be mistaken.

No, it was your main argument. You focused on it more than the second one.

I find it amusing that you can even argue about what I was thinking. I repeatedly said that it wasn't my main argument, but fine if you don't want to believe me.

I'm not arguing what you're thinking. You focused on the Aizen can sense limbo argument more prior to me pointing out the major holes in it.

Firstly I don't disagree that stats in Naruto, such as durability and attack potency, is not a product of Chakra alone, unlike Bleach where the passive Reiatsu can render their weaker opponent's attack useless. Naruto depends on Jutsu, in this case, you pit Kaguya's regeneration/chakra absorption jutsu against Kamui Shuriken. Kakashi was using Kamui Shuriken which is a Space-Time Ninjutsu that negates durability, hence Kaguya wasn't able to nullify it despite being able to absorb all chakra-based attacks. Six Paths Chakra is not the factor here, unlike the case of Limbo

That portion of six paths chakra is the factor here, that is how Kakashi went from relative fodder to outspeeding Kaguya with a Kamui Raikiri.

No Caption Provided

.

According to you, he shouldn't be doing that because he has much less chakra and chakra serves to enhance speed.

I said physical stats can be used for chakra comparison, only if

  1. Both sides use the same Jutsu. In this case, neither side is using any special Jutsu other than pure Taijutsu. So they are definitely the same. If anything, Madara should have an advantage in fighting style.
  2. Both sides having the same passive abilities, like Six Paths Senjutsu. This isn't quite true as Madara also has immortality. But the key is Naruto Clones has nothing to their advantage that Limbo Clones don't have. So I'm highballing the Limbo Clones already.

Naruto's clones have been shown to use abilities unlike limbo so there's an advantage you missed.

No Caption Provided

However, for the example you give, you are comparing two different stats Kakashi's travel speed with Kaguya's reaction speed, amped by two different Jutsu one Kamui Raikiri and another is Kaguya's Byakugan or whatever else she used. Not to mention you didn't consider the context since it was after a bluff where Kaguya thought that her Ash Bones has hit Kakashi.

She still got hit by that Kamui Raikiri, something that shouldn't happen if chakra was influencing battles as much as you're making it out to be.

Why do you bring this up again? I already said before "duplicate of himself" doesn't suggest anything about Chakra, even if they are identical to the original atom-to-atom. I would gladly take it if the databook did say so, but it certainly didn't even imply it.

You're either reaching or don't know what duplicate means:

No Caption Provided

So prove that a "copy of Madara that is exactly like Madara does not have same chakra.

So you resort to English dictionary? That is the number 1 way people use to infamously take databook statements out of context. Naruto's Clones are also identical to him, even in memories, so much so no Dojutsu could tell the difference. Yet his Chakra is not the same as the original before the cloning. Not to mention the databook didn't say it is duplicating the Juubi as well..

First of all, shadow clones are nowhere stated to be duplicates like limbo so it .

Second of all, Madara's dojutsu can tell the difference between Naruto and his clones.

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Third of all , limbo have the white appearance with the white robe which is due to the six paths chakra, they gained Juubi when Madara became it's Jinchuriki just as they gained the second Rinnegan when Madara got it.

Okay sure they won. Limbo Clones are superior. But remember what are our arguments?

Me: Limbo Clones have comparable Chakra to Shadow Clones. Limbo Clones eventual victory or superiority doesn't discredit this fact.

You: Limbo Clones have the same Chakra as original Madara (idk if you mean including Juubi or not at this point).Limbo Clones eventual victory or superiority doesn't prove this fact.

If you're gonna agree that Limbo won and are superior trying to imply that agreeing with that won't discredit your argument then you've made a mistake as going by your reasoning they won thus they have more chakra not just "comparable".

Superior =/= not comparable. I don't know how else to explain this.

Superior in battle =/= not comparable in Chakra. This is even more true when you consider the Shadow Clones probably got stuck in IT.

I adressed this below.

Forgive me but I have no intention of twisting your argument. The cherry on the cake or not, you keep bringing it out repeatedly even though I've debunked the argument 3 times. You even repeated it again here. So I will repeat it again, it only means that the Limbo Clones have a chance of killing them, by no means Limbo Clones have more Chakra.

Whether intentional or not, saying that the reason behind me claiming Limbo won was Sasuke's statement when it's only an "also" is a twist.

You did not debunk the Sasuke statement argument. Sasuke considered the possibility of limbo killing them/him something that he isn't going to do for Naruto's clones that are "comparable to limbo" according to you.

Dude, you saying I twist your argument because I present your side argument as your main argument??

Like I said, capable of killing Naruto =/= same Chakra. You said it yourself that Chakra isn't everything, now suddenly it is???

I did say "whether unintentional or not". I believe you didn't do it intentionaly but it's still a twist.

Also, I think we should both stick to our own arguments and stop trying to use the other's. Otherwise this will be going nowhere. For example, you're trying to use my chakra isn't everything here, I could respond by bringing up your chakra decides superiority and we'll be running in cercles.

And in fact, this is very relevant even for your real cake. Winning =/= more Chakra. Chakra isn't everything, remember? There's still fighting skills and immortality.

There's also being able to use techniques like Lava style, Naruto's speed that is no less than equal to Madara's and magnet release sealing

Sure. Feel free to say that they didn't use Rinnegan. This is just the cherry on my cake.

So you can't prove that he changed the writer changed his mind for that fight only? Ok.

Naruto's speed is no less than equal? I didn't say it wasn't equal bruh. In fact that was exactly what I argued.

Yup, Naruto's speed is no less than equal to Madara. From the databook:

The reaction speed is not less than equal to Madara, who had turned into the Ten-Tails' jinchuriki.

Wait, you now assume Naruto used Lava style and magnet release, but then you demand proof that Madara used Rinnegan abilities? Now you are just reaallly pushing it.

In fact even if he did use it, it doesn't clarify anything about the Limbo Clones' Chakra. It just add more factors and confusion, in the end make it impossible to proof anything. You wanted to use this bad evidence, not me. I never liked going off vague statements like this.

Because Naruto's clones were shown to be able to use abilities them unlike limbo. I'm not pushing anything, this is all from the manga.

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See! That Sasuke argument again!

Databook argument again!

Both of which has been debunked many times. I doubt you want me to repeat them again here.

You didn't debunk the Sasuke argument/Databook argument nor do you actually can considering that would be the same as going against the manga and databook themselves.

By "roughly equal chance" I mean not taking down the Shadow Clones during the time when we see them fighting.

Then why even use "rougthly equal chance"? that straight up means they both had an equal chance. Just say that limbo didn't take down the clones in in the time when we see them fighting.

Huh? You got a problem with me using "roughly"? Cos I'm saying just to protect myself. But if you are willing to admit it, then that's fine with me too.

I don't have a problem with you using "roughly". However It would have been clearer and less ambiguous to use that explanation phrase instead of "rougthly equal chance".

Imo, the Limbo Clones probably poofed them off when the Shadow Clones got affected by IT. That explains why the Limbo Clones didn't attack them before Sasuke shields them with his Susanoo (after Madara cast the IT, but before the light reaches the ground, which is a pretty small time frame to be a coincidence that IT is not the factor here).

But honestly, that doesn't even matter. It's just another cherry on my cake.

Limbo were already roaming free by the time Madara was trying people through Shinju tree.

And when did Madara tie people with the Tree? That's right, after IT affected the victims.

Because limbo are already roaming free when Madara ties people, let's look at what "roam" means:

No Caption Provided

They're already "moving and traveling without idea where they're going" not just done from their fight with "rougthly equal chance".

Furthermore, we know Naruto's clones share memories with him so if they got caught in infinite tsukuyomi, Naruto would know better than trying to go out from Sasuke's perfect susanoo.

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#190 Posted by UltimateSage (2699 posts) - - Show Bio

My god, the things being said here are amazingly terrifying.lmao

OT: madara still stomps.

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#191 Posted by JOVIOLMA (6161 posts) - - Show Bio

Six Paths Madara is too much for anyone in the Bleachverse to deal with.

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#192 Edited by Revold (752 posts) - - Show Bio

@rabii99 said:
@revold said:
@rabii99 said:

@revold:

I'm willing to forgo the argument that Aizen can sense Limbo as like any other cross-Universe concepts it depends on many factors,

You're willing to let it go because it's a fallacy that is full of holes and is contradicted by both Naruto and Bleach manga.

hence not being my main argument in the first place. I thought the second argument is a much easier topic to resolve since its a strictly Naruto problem but seems like I might be mistaken.

No, it was your main argument. You focused on it more than the second one.

I find it amusing that you can even argue about what I was thinking. I repeatedly said that it wasn't my main argument, but fine if you don't want to believe me.

I'm not arguing what you're thinking. You focused on the Aizen can sense limbo argument more prior to me pointing out the major holes in it.

ok...?

Firstly I don't disagree that stats in Naruto, such as durability and attack potency, is not a product of Chakra alone, unlike Bleach where the passive Reiatsu can render their weaker opponent's attack useless. Naruto depends on Jutsu, in this case, you pit Kaguya's regeneration/chakra absorption jutsu against Kamui Shuriken. Kakashi was using Kamui Shuriken which is a Space-Time Ninjutsu that negates durability, hence Kaguya wasn't able to nullify it despite being able to absorb all chakra-based attacks. Six Paths Chakra is not the factor here, unlike the case of Limbo

That portion of six paths chakra is the factor here, that is how Kakashi went from relative fodder to outspeeding Kaguya with a Kamui Raikiri.

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.

According to you, he shouldn't be doing that because he has much less chakra and chakra serves to enhance speed.

I said physical stats can be used for chakra comparison, only if

  1. Both sides use the same Jutsu. In this case, neither side is using any special Jutsu other than pure Taijutsu. So they are definitely the same. If anything, Madara should have an advantage in fighting style.
  2. Both sides having the same passive abilities, like Six Paths Senjutsu. This isn't quite true as Madara also has immortality. But the key is Naruto Clones has nothing to their advantage that Limbo Clones don't have. So I'm highballing the Limbo Clones already.

Naruto's clones have been shown to use abilities unlike limbo so there's an advantage you missed.

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Over here I'm talking about only the part of the fight that we saw.... That's the part I used to compare their Chakra for my argument. You can use this point later when we start talking about the part of the fight we didn't see, that is your argument.

However, for the example you give, you are comparing two different stats Kakashi's travel speed with Kaguya's reaction speed, amped by two different Jutsu one Kamui Raikiri and another is Kaguya's Byakugan or whatever else she used. Not to mention you didn't consider the context since it was after a bluff where Kaguya thought that her Ash Bones has hit Kakashi.

She still got hit by that Kamui Raikiri, something that shouldn't happen if chakra was influencing battles as much as you're making it out to be.

Did you even read what I wrote??? I said that this is not a fair comparison because there are various other factors at play. Only when you confirmed that those factors are not there then you can use this comparison.

Why do you bring this up again? I already said before "duplicate of himself" doesn't suggest anything about Chakra, even if they are identical to the original atom-to-atom. I would gladly take it if the databook did say so, but it certainly didn't even imply it.

You're either reaching or don't know what duplicate means:

No Caption Provided

So prove that a "copy of Madara that is exactly like Madara does not have same chakra.

So you resort to English dictionary? That is the number 1 way people use to infamously take databook statements out of context. Naruto's Clones are also identical to him, even in memories, so much so no Dojutsu could tell the difference. Yet his Chakra is not the same as the original before the cloning. Not to mention the databook didn't say it is duplicating the Juubi as well..

First of all, shadow clones are nowhere stated to be duplicates like limbo so it .

Second of all, Madara's dojutsu can tell the difference between Naruto and his clones.

No Caption Provided

Third of all , limbo have the white appearance with the white robe which is due to the six paths chakra, they gained Juubi when Madara became it's Jinchuriki just as they gained the second Rinnegan when Madara got it.

There is no reason to believe that Madara determined that through Dojutsu when he was using a Rinnegan then, not a Sharingan. Madara made an educated guess just like he did for Hashirama's Wood Clones. Not even Kaguya's Byakugan could tell the difference.

The white robe is due to the Sage Transformation, not Six Paths Chakra. But I get your point. But you only show that Limbo copied Madara's physical appearance, which is what all of us agree on. Sure he got it from absorbing the Juubi, but doesn't mean that Limbo also copied the Juubi's Chakra.

Okay sure they won. Limbo Clones are superior. But remember what are our arguments?

Me: Limbo Clones have comparable Chakra to Shadow Clones. Limbo Clones eventual victory or superiority doesn't discredit this fact.

You: Limbo Clones have the same Chakra as original Madara (idk if you mean including Juubi or not at this point).Limbo Clones eventual victory or superiority doesn't prove this fact.

If you're gonna agree that Limbo won and are superior trying to imply that agreeing with that won't discredit your argument then you've made a mistake as going by your reasoning they won thus they have more chakra not just "comparable".

Superior =/= not comparable. I don't know how else to explain this.

Superior in battle =/= not comparable in Chakra. This is even more true when you consider the Shadow Clones probably got stuck in IT.

I adressed this below.

Forgive me but I have no intention of twisting your argument. The cherry on the cake or not, you keep bringing it out repeatedly even though I've debunked the argument 3 times. You even repeated it again here. So I will repeat it again, it only means that the Limbo Clones have a chance of killing them, by no means Limbo Clones have more Chakra.

Whether intentional or not, saying that the reason behind me claiming Limbo won was Sasuke's statement when it's only an "also" is a twist.

You did not debunk the Sasuke statement argument. Sasuke considered the possibility of limbo killing them/him something that he isn't going to do for Naruto's clones that are "comparable to limbo" according to you.

Dude, you saying I twist your argument because I present your side argument as your main argument??

Like I said, capable of killing Naruto =/= same Chakra. You said it yourself that Chakra isn't everything, now suddenly it is???

I did say "whether unintentional or not". I believe you didn't do it intentionaly but it's still a twist.

Also, I think we should both stick to our own arguments and stop trying to use the other's. Otherwise this will be going nowhere. For example, you're trying to use my chakra isn't everything here, I could respond by bringing up your chakra decides superiority and we'll be running in cercles.

It's not that you didn't believe I was unintentional. I'm asking if whether it is a twist at all. Presenting your side argument as your main argument barely consitutes as "twisting your argument". I get that that's not ideal enough for you, but I was only bringing everything onto the table to make things clear.

The thing is "Chakra isn't everything" isn't an argument that I disagree with. Chakra decides superiority only when other factors are already considered. But over here you fail to consider any factors, most important of them being the IT still active. So the same comparison I made there can't be applied here.

And in fact, this is very relevant even for your real cake. Winning =/= more Chakra. Chakra isn't everything, remember? There's still fighting skills and immortality.

There's also being able to use techniques like Lava style, Naruto's speed that is no less than equal to Madara's and magnet release sealing

Sure. Feel free to say that they didn't use Rinnegan. This is just the cherry on my cake.

So you can't prove that he changed the writer changed his mind for that fight only? Ok.

Naruto's speed is no less than equal? I didn't say it wasn't equal bruh. In fact that was exactly what I argued.

Yup, Naruto's speed is no less than equal to Madara. From the databook:

The reaction speed is not less than equal to Madara, who had turned into the Ten-Tails' jinchuriki.

Reaction speed yes. Because they both have Six Paths Senjutsu.

So what's the argument here? Chakra doesn't affect speed?

Wait, you now assume Naruto used Lava style and magnet release, but then you demand proof that Madara used Rinnegan abilities? Now you are just reaallly pushing it.

In fact even if he did use it, it doesn't clarify anything about the Limbo Clones' Chakra. It just add more factors and confusion, in the end make it impossible to proof anything. You wanted to use this bad evidence, not me. I never liked going off vague statements like this.

Because Naruto's clones were shown to be able to use abilities them unlike limbo. I'm not pushing anything, this is all from the manga.

Ok now we are talking about the part of the fight we didn't see, so I'll address this point.

Well, Naruto using these Jutsu is purely your headcanon. You might as well list all the abilities the clone used before as their "advantage". However, Madara's advantage of fighting skills and immortality is not headcanon. Even if they did use those Jutsu, it doesn't matter to the Limbo Clones. They could've aborbed it with the Rinnegan, which you insist that they definitely did not use (but Naruto definitely used his Jutsu) just because they haven't use it before. Even without the Rinnegan, his immortal body won't be too affected by them. Like I said, adding these Jutsu in doesn't prove your point, you just made this evidence more complicated.

I can also argue that Naruto will refrain from using those Jutsu anticipating that the Limbo will absorb them, regardless of whether you think the Limbo Clones will use Preta Path or not. And there is no way you can prove otherwise. That actually explains why Naruto go up to fight the Limbo Clones with purely Taijutsu for the part of the fight we saw.

See! That Sasuke argument again!

Databook argument again!

Both of which has been debunked many times. I doubt you want me to repeat them again here.

You didn't debunk the Sasuke argument/Databook argument nor do you actually can considering that would be the same as going against the manga and databook themselves.

By "roughly equal chance" I mean not taking down the Shadow Clones during the time when we see them fighting.

Then why even use "rougthly equal chance"? that straight up means they both had an equal chance. Just say that limbo didn't take down the clones in in the time when we see them fighting.

Huh? You got a problem with me using "roughly"? Cos I'm saying just to protect myself. But if you are willing to admit it, then that's fine with me too.

I don't have a problem with you using "roughly". However It would have been clearer and less ambiguous to use that explanation phrase instead of "rougthly equal chance".

Imo, the Limbo Clones probably poofed them off when the Shadow Clones got affected by IT. That explains why the Limbo Clones didn't attack them before Sasuke shields them with his Susanoo (after Madara cast the IT, but before the light reaches the ground, which is a pretty small time frame to be a coincidence that IT is not the factor here).

But honestly, that doesn't even matter. It's just another cherry on my cake.

Limbo were already roaming free by the time Madara was trying people through Shinju tree.

And when did Madara tie people with the Tree? That's right, after IT affected the victims.

Because limbo are already roaming free when Madara ties people, let's look at what "roam" means:

No Caption Provided

They're already "moving and traveling without idea where they're going" not just done from their fight with "rougthly equal chance".

Furthermore, we know Naruto's clones share memories with him so if they got caught in infinite tsukuyomi, Naruto would know better than trying to go out from Sasuke's perfect susanoo.

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This is getting ridiculous. Now you are using English dictionary for the words you used? What's the significance of that??

The point is that IT was already cast when Madara was tying the tree. So your point didn't show that Naruto's clones didn't get caught by IT before they got defeated.

Naruto only gets his clones' memories after he releases the Jutsu himself, then their Chakra will go back to him. But since they probably got poofed by Limbo Clones, Naruto won't get them.

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#193 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4617 posts) - - Show Bio

I still see no answer for Hado 90.

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#194 Posted by ManimalMan (818 posts) - - Show Bio

@leothegreatest: whats hado 90 supposed to do? Madara tanks it and moves on.

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#195 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4617 posts) - - Show Bio

@manimalman:

Yeah as easily as Kaguya tanked Gravity that couldn’t even ground Obito and Kakashi.. right?

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#196 Posted by REQUIEMCROSS (461 posts) - - Show Bio

I still see no answer for Hado 90.

Hado 90:

"Seeping crest of turbidity.

Arrogant vessel of lunacy!

Boil forth and deny!

Grow numb and flicker!

Disrupt sleep!

Crawling queen of iron!

Eternally self-destructing doll of mud!

Unite!

Repulse!

Fill with soil and know your own powerlessness!"

Madara's Limbo could immediately attack him before he finish saying the first word.

Aizen could also be under by tsukuyomi or Genjutsu before he completed the first line.

Madara won't simply stand and watch while Aizen chant this 10 line hado.

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#197 Posted by LeoTheGreatest (4617 posts) - - Show Bio

@requiemcross:

He doesn’t need the chant.

And Madara would be under KS before Aizen is under anything.

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#198 Posted by REQUIEMCROSS (461 posts) - - Show Bio

@requiemcross:

He doesn’t need the chant.

And Madara would be under KS before Aizen is under anything.

Then why did he chant it when he's facing Ichigo?

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#199 Edited by LeoTheGreatest (4617 posts) - - Show Bio

@requiemcross said:
@leothegreatest said:

@requiemcross:

He doesn’t need the chant.

And Madara would be under KS before Aizen is under anything.

Then why did he chant it when he's facing Ichigo?

Becuase he wanted to hit him with his full power.

He doesn’t have to hit Madara with his full power to put him down.

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#200 Posted by REQUIEMCROSS (461 posts) - - Show Bio

@requiemcross said:
@leothegreatest said:

@requiemcross:

He doesn’t need the chant.

And Madara would be under KS before Aizen is under anything.

Then why did he chant it when he's facing Ichigo?

Becuase he wanted to hit him with his full power.

He doesn’t have to hit Madara with his full power to put him down.

Do you have a feat of Aizen using Hado 90 without completing the 10 lined chant?

Kindly post those feats so I can analyze if they are enough reason to put Madara down.