Sith Apprentices vs Jedi Strike Team

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FloLikeYou

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Poll Sith Apprentices vs Jedi Strike Team (37 votes)

Sith win 62%
Sith win barely 16%
Stalemate 3%
Jedi win barely 11%
Jedi win 8%

The dark acolytes VS. The keepers of peace

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Scenario:

The Jedi Council finally found the secret base in which the dark acolytes reside and decides to send a group of Jedi (Anakin and Obi-Wan are absent during this which is why they had to pick others) that already have experience with them plus Tholme because he knows their Master and Sian Jeisel because she already was near the hideout.

Teams:

Dark side: General Grievous, Savage Opress & Asajj Ventress

Light side: Tholme, Adi Gallia, Luminara Unduli, Fay, Judd, Sian Jeisel & Ko Solok

Rules:

- Composite characters

- Morals on default

- Win by death or incap.

-Fight takes place on a beach on Kashyyyk

Bonus Question:

How epic would this fight be? Who would most likely die?

Thanks to @theoverdaddy for inspiring me to do this fight. I also apologize for copying your structure lol.

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deactivated-6034d0d6dcbf4

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Bad guys win after an hell of a fight thanks to superior quality of the fighters. Quality > Quantity.

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Void_Reborn

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Grievous solos

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superoperative

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None of them are Sith.

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WillValentine2

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@richard96 said "Bad guys win after an hell of a fight thanks to superior quality of the fighters. Quality > Quantity." -this

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#7  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

Gallia on her own can already keep up with Grievous, though she's still inferior. Combine her with any one lightsaber-wielding Jedi, and Grievous goes down.

On Nadiem, Luminara proved she could hang with the best of them by stalemating Grievous, so she can certainly occupy Savage for a while, regardless as to who wins. Especially considering her form advantage. Luminara can also be paired with a single Jedi and take down her opponent.

As for Ventress... canon Tholme already gave her a good fight, though that was early war Ventress. Legends Tholme can keep up with Quinlan, who I consider to be around Ventress' level. Tholme by himself can likely hold his own against Ventress. Combine him with two Masters(Judd & Solok), who should at least be at the baseline level of 22 bby Anakin/Ventress, and the Jedi prevail here too.

Jeisel and Fay pair with Gallia and Luminara to overcome their opponents. Jedi sweep.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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None of them are Sith.

Well, they were apprentices of Sith, so they would qualify as Sith apprentices. Savage though was absolutely a Sith, he's constantly referred to as such by TCW and all manner of sourcebooks & supplementary material. Ventress wasn't a Sith in the technical sense, but she was no different than Starkiller. Dooku was working to hone her powers until she was strong enough that Dooku and her could overthrow Sidious.

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AnakinVader99

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Gallia on her own can already keep up with Grievous, though she's still inferior. Combine her with any one lightsaber-wielding Jedi, and Grievous goes down.

Keep up is an argument the cyborg held a solid advantage

On Nadiem, Luminara proved she could hang with the best of them by stalemating Grievous, so she can certainly occupy Savage for a while, regardless as to who wins. Especially considering her form advantage. Luminara can also be paired with a single Jedi and take down her opponent.

She never fought Grievous on Nadiem in fact he left before they did

As for Ventress... canon Tholme already gave her a good fight, though that was early war Ventress. Legends Tholme can keep up with Quinlan, who I consider to be around Ventress' level. Tholme by himself can likely hold his own against Ventress. Combine him with two Masters(Judd & Solok), who should at least be at the baseline level of 22 bby Anakin/Ventress, and the Jedi prevail here too.

There is a large gap between early war Ventress and late war Ventress though as she rag dolled Obi-wan someone who is already more powerful than Tholme and Ventress is confirmed to be more powerful than Quinlan and has better feats overall in Legends. Also, why are those two around Anakin and Ventress level in 22 bby? Sol lost while Maul was fighting another Jedi at the same time and Judd could gain an advantage over said Maul

Jeisel and Fay pair with Gallia and Luminara to overcome their opponents. Jedi sweep.

Fay nearly got her heart crushed by Ventress and Jeisel was stalemated by an early war Ventress while fighting a Jedi master and another knight

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AnakinVader99

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@flolikeyou: The trio win Grievous is shown to be more skilled than anyone else, Ventress is by far more powerful than any of the Jedi there and Savage is by far more physically capable than any of the Jedi combined that with his own force abilities and he solidly wins

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AnakinVader99

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Both of these accolades and feats are her in the early war and when she nearly crushed Faye's heart while wounded now imagine late war Ventress not wounded?

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@anakinvader99:

That's legends EU early war Ventress who is laughably more formidable than canon/legends early war Ventress. They aren't the same character, those feats aren't usable since they're lesser canon than TCW.

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AnakinVader99

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#13  Edited By AnakinVader99

@lord_tenebrous said:

@anakinvader99:

That's legends EU early war Ventress who is laughably more formidable than canon/legends early war Ventress. They aren't the same character, those feats aren't usable since they're lesser canon than TCW.

Um this is composite so yeah I can do that plus half the Jedi are only EU though

Edit: Can I just say that TCW is the worst thing to exist in battle forums?

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ELDOMINANCE

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sith squats them

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#15  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@anakinvader99:

Composite means combining both legends and Disney continuity. Pre-2008 Ventress isn't valid in either continuity, all the estsblished legends power levels were drastically restructured following TCW.

TCW has many flaws, but generally I like that it highlights the abilities of background characters.

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Red12789

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#16  Edited By Red12789

The Sith win.

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AnakinVader99

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@anakinvader99:

Composite means combining both legends and Disney continuity. Pre-2008 Ventress isn't valid in either continuity, all the estsblished legends power levels were drastically restructured following TCW.

Proof? The op never established that and how can we say any of those characters are valid? And pretty sure Grievous wouldn't be valid. Also what you are saying it;s basically it's TCW Ventress? the weak TCW Ventress?

TCW has many flaws, but generally I like that it highlights the abilities of background characters.

I frankly find it dumb as all the characters are mediocre and a shadow of they once were in Legends except of course Yoda and Palpatine that's why I won't ever use Obi-wan or Anakin in TCW besides their accolades because they are so weak compared to Legends I find it laughable if they could compete with anyone beyond knight level in Legends. And makes the whole Anakin being the chosen one thing feels like bs because besides one episode he has done nothing to suggest he is above average and is quite frankly probably the weakest Jedi knight ever shown in the show.

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TheOverDaddy

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Nice fight! Thanks for the credit by the way, I appreciate it :)

If I was to rank the characters by their combat prowess, the ranking would look like this; General Grievous > Asajj Ventress => Savage Opress = Judd => Luminara Unduli = Adi Gallia => Fay => Sian Jeisel > Ko-Solok.

In the end I think that Grievous would just be too much and he would slaughter Jedi such as Sian Jeisel and Ko-Solok, maybe even Fay as well. Judd would put up a great fight against Savage, and I'm sure that if they were alone he would have a chance of winning, but whilst the other Jedi are being cut down, he will eventually be overwhelmed when either Ventress or Grievous join the fray.

Luminara and Adi would most likely break off to have one face Ventress and the other face Grievous along with Sian, Solok and Fay. But in the end, seeing as though these are the Composite versions of their characters, Grievous will be too much.

Sith Team take this 8/10 times.

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Void_Reborn

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@anakinvader99: That is early war Ventress. The source says perhaps she is the most powerful, defeating all the gladiators. That is until she is paired with Durge and the duo lose to Grievous. Later on, in Legends continuity, this is said:

He had a meeting scheduled with the formidable General Grievous, who was even more powerful than Ventress, but a great deal less interesting as a dinner-table conversationalist.

Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

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DoTheTwist_

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Legends makes this a disgusting mismatch, GG should honestly solo or atleast be close to it.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@anakinvader99:

Proof? The op never established that and how can we say any of those characters are valid?

It's composite, which means both continuities. Legends Ventress is beholden to the canon guidelines of the legends continuity -- old legends Ventress was retconned even before the Disney wipe. Well before it.

And pretty sure Grievous wouldn't be valid.

Not really, pre-TCW Grievous doesn't really have any feats to be retconned.

Also what you are saying it;s basically it's TCW Ventress? the weak TCW Ventress?

TCW is higher canon than all those pre-2008 secondary sources. Pre-TCW Ventress' showings were:

  • Contending with Count Dooku
  • Nearly defeating Mace Windu
  • Holding the upper hand over Anakin Skywalker bordering ROTS
  • Defeating Kit Fisto

Post-2008 Ventress' feats consist of:

  • Being toyed with by early war Obi-Wan Kenobi
  • Being outclassed by Luminara Unduli
  • Being outfought by Plo Koon
  • Struggling against every Master she's ever dueled

See the difference? It's like old MagnaGuards versus post-2008 MagnaGuards. TCW was run by Lucas, who wasn't beholden to the EU and had no interest in maintaining consistency. What he wanted it to be was how it became.

She never fought Grievous on Nadiem in fact he left before they did

We were never shown Luminara's entire stint on Nadiem, the Relaunched Fact Files confirm they fought.

Sol lost while Maul was fighting another Jedi at the same time and Judd could gain an advantage over said Maul

Judd only did well against Savage. Whenever he came up against Maul solo, he was quickly outfought.

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In this comic, Savage is portrayed as in a tier below Maul, like in that one TCW episode. Judd can likely hang with Savage but he's outclassed by Maul, who is TCW Obi-Wan tier. I estimate that Judd is around AOTC Anakin/22 bby Ventress level. An elite, but a tier below TCW Obi-Wan/Maul.

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Void_Reborn

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@lord_tenebrous: In how many instances is Savage portrayed as 'above' Maul?

As far as we know, there are already 3 instances of Savage being portrayed beneath Maul. The comic involving Judd, their own fight with one another and their performance against a highly motivated Obi-Wan.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#23  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@void_reborn said:

@lord_tenebrous: In how many instances is Savage portrayed as 'above' Maul?

As far as we know, there are already 3 instances of Savage being portrayed beneath Maul. The comic involving Judd, their own fight with one another and their performance against a highly motivated Obi-Wan.

That's about it. Savage is portrayed as comparable to Maul on around 4 occasions:

  • 8-9 second stalemate with Kenobi
  • Performing similarly against Ventress
  • 5-6 second stalemate with Kenobi
  • Performing similarly against Kenobi in their first 2v1 on Florrum

Maul is portrayed as better on 3:

  • Stomping Savage
  • Outperforming him against Judd
  • Outperforming him against Kenobi in their second 2v1 on Florrum

And Savage is portrayed as better on 4:

  • Competing with Gallia
  • Competing with Plo
  • Competing with Obi-Wan & Anakin
  • Outperforming base Maul against Sidious

The Halsey feat can support either the parity position or the Savage > Maul position, as Masters by status are a bare minimum of 22 bby Ventress level, and the lowest person she can be outclassed by is TCW Obi-Wan, who is TCW Maul tier. So, it ranges from indicating he's Obi-Wan tier(assuming Master Halsey is 22 bby Ventress tier), to Grievous tier(assuming Master Halsey is TCW Obi-Wan tier).

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Void_Reborn

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@lord_tenebrous: To be fair, Savage's hit on Sidious is something Maul could've also done. It was a result of Sidious being taken by surprise, an attack coming from behind him. One brother occupied him, the other hit. It was more of a team effort than anything else.

What makes you say Plo is above TCW Maul?

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@void_reborn:

To be fair, Savage's hit on Sidious is something Maul could've also done. It was a result of Sidious being taken by surprise, an attack coming from behind him. One brother occupied him, the other hit. It was more of a team effort than anything else.

That's just how tandem fighting works though, it's not a circumstantial showing in the sense that Sidious was really caught off-guard or anything. While Sidious was playing around with them, Savage was still the one doing better.

What makes you say Plo is above TCW Maul?

Council scaling. Anyone comparable to Grievous, is an 8 and thus considerably higher than people Grievous regularly outclasses, like TCW Obi-Wan, a peer of TCW Maul.

Out of thousands of Jedi Knights, and at least a couple hundred Masters, all of varying talent, all spending their entire lives constantly honing their lightsaber skills, the Council are the 12 best. Grievous has struggled against Jedi like Luminara, Pablo Jill and Puroth. Since they aren't on the Council, and Plo is, he is better than them, and absorbs their feats. It is as simple as one person is comparable to Grievous, and one is not.

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Void_Reborn

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#26  Edited By Void_Reborn

@lord_tenebrous:

That's just how tandem fighting works though, it's not a circumstantial showing in the sense that Sidious was really caught off-guard or anything. While Sidious was playing around with them, Savage was still the one doing better.

It isn't a circumstancial thing yes but Savage did attack Sidious where he wasn't currently looking. I don't think he'd have been hit had he expected it to come. It would be Savage > Maul in performance if Savage got tagged him while mid-duel with Sidious but that wasn't the case. A more clear showing of one fighter outperforming the other in tandem fighting is when Anakin does better against Dooku as compared to Obi-Wan.

As of what was shown, Savage and Maul did equally well against Sidious and the duel should be under your parity category.

ouncil scaling. Anyone comparable to Grievous, is an 8 and thus considerably higher than people Grievous regularly outclasses, like TCW Obi-Wan, a peer of TCW Maul.

Out of thousands of Jedi Knights, and at least a couple hundred Masters, all of varying talent, all spending their entire lives constantly honing their lightsaber skills, the Council are the 12 best. Grievous has struggled against Jedi like Luminara, Pablo Jill and Puroth. Since they aren't on the Council, and Plo is, he is better than them, and absorbs their feats. It is as simple as one person is comparable to Grievous, and one is not.

While this does make sense, as for Plo and Maul it really depends on where you hold Maul as when compared to Savage. As you see Opress as base Maul's superior, contending with Plo Koon the way he did would be something that, in your opinion, Maul would be unable to replicate and would ultimately lose.

As for those like me who see Maul as above Opress, and having a lot more feats as compared to Koon, it would be easier to see them in a position of close parity with one another and whoever comes out on top would be up for debate.

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AnakinVader99

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@void_reborn:

To be fair, Savage's hit on Sidious is something Maul could've also done. It was a result of Sidious being taken by surprise, an attack coming from behind him. One brother occupied him, the other hit. It was more of a team effort than anything else.

That's just how tandem fighting works though, it's not a circumstantial showing in the sense that Sidious was really caught off-guard or anything. While Sidious was playing around with them, Savage was still the one doing better.

How is that any less caught off guard than Vader a slow lumbering giant grabbing Sidious before Sidious got the chance to react properly?

What makes you say Plo is above TCW Maul?

Council scaling. Anyone comparable to Grievous, is an 8 and thus considerably higher than people Grievous regularly outclasses, like TCW Obi-Wan, a peer of TCW Maul.

Out of thousands of Jedi Knights, and at least a couple hundred Masters, all of varying talent, all spending their entire lives constantly honing their lightsaber skills, the Council are the 12 best. Grievous has struggled against Jedi like Luminara, Pablo Jill and Puroth. Since they aren't on the Council, and Plo is, he is better than them, and absorbs their feats. It is as simple as one person is comparable to Grievous, and one is not.

Council scaling doesn't work though plenty of council members are weaker other jedi masters and knights for example, the hero of tython is the strongest Jedi at the time but wasn't a council member, Exar Kun was not a council member yet still was one of the best swordsmen in the era above even his own teacher who was the mace windu of his time, Revan wasn't a council member when he was basically a god in his time and Anakin has done better against people who council members lost to or struggled against like Durge, doppelganger Dooku and Asajj. In fact, the meme Jedi Coleman Trebor despite a being Jedi council master with the ability to sense danger got shot by Jango Fett. They are not just picked for their power but for wisdom, experience and knowledge if it was power than there wouldn't be so many Jedi declared the strongest of their time while not being on the council or so many council members who do not show any better than the average master.

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Void_Reborn

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#28  Edited By Void_Reborn

@anakinvader99:

How is that any less caught off guard than Vader a slow lumbering giant grabbing Sidious before Sidious got the chance to react properly?

Because Sidious wasn't actively fighting Vader. He was focused on torturing Luke whereas Sidious was actively dueling against the combined force of Savage and Maul. Yes, Sidious was hit from behind where he wasn't looking but it is not equally being caught off guard as Vader's surprise grab.

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AnakinVader99

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@anakinvader99:

Proof? The op never established that and how can we say any of those characters are valid?

It's composite, which means both continuities. Legends Ventress is beholden to the canon guidelines of the legends continuity -- old legends Ventress was retconned even before the Disney wipe. Well before it.

Again so it's basically the low balled to oblivion Ventress gotcha

And pretty sure Grievous wouldn't be valid.

Not really, pre-TCW Grievous doesn't really have any feats to be retconned.

Except fighting 5 jedi at once and stalemating Mace when he has done nothing to suggest he can

Also what you are saying it;s basically it's TCW Ventress? the weak TCW Ventress?

TCW is higher canon than all those pre-2008 secondary sources. Pre-TCW Ventress' showings were:

  • Contending with Count Dooku
  • Nearly defeating Mace Windu
  • Holding the upper hand over Anakin Skywalker bordering ROTS
  • Defeating Kit Fisto

Post-2008 Ventress' feats consist of:

  • Being toyed with by early war Obi-Wan Kenobi
  • Being outclassed by Luminara Unduli
  • Being outfought by Plo Koon
  • Struggling against every Master she's ever dueled

See the difference? It's like old MagnaGuards versus post-2008 MagnaGuards. TCW was run by Lucas, who wasn't beholden to the EU and had no interest in maintaining consistency. What he wanted it to be was how it became.

Again basically the weak Ventress.

You mean Dave Filoni Lucas didn't write and was not any more involved than his other material in the EU and actually helped in the EU several times so no blame Dave because George helped more than he hindered

She never fought Grievous on Nadiem in fact he left before they did

We were never shown Luminara's entire stint on Nadiem, the Relaunched Fact Files confirm they fought.

Which is contradicted by what we see and no only does it make no sense but it's basically the Sidious toying with Maul argument no only does it contradict what we see but no evidence supports it

Sol lost while Maul was fighting another Jedi at the same time and Judd could gain an advantage over said Maul

Judd only did well against Savage. Whenever he came up against Maul solo, he was quickly outfought.

I mean he couldn't gain an advantage over said Maul as in he would lose very quickly

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In this comic, Savage is portrayed as in a tier below Maul, like in that one TCW episode. Judd can likely hang with Savage but he's outclassed by Maul, who is TCW Obi-Wan tier. I estimate that Judd is around AOTC Anakin/22 bby Ventress level. An elite, but a tier below TCW Obi-Wan/Maul.

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Void_Reborn

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@anakinvader99:

it's basically the Sidious toying with Maul argument no only does it contradict what we see but no evidence supports it

Sidious was toying with Savage and Maul that is clear on screen. As for rage amped Maul, it would make sense that Sidious got serious after being kicked. Star Wars.com also supports this.

Upon arrival, Sidious declared the Sith brothers to be his rivals. In an intense duel, he killed Savage and toyed with Maul, ultimately deciding not to kill his former apprentice.

Star Wars.Com, Darth Maul Biography Gallery, Image 33 of 33

It's not referring to when Sidious tortured Maul with lightning either. It says he toyed with Maul right after killing with Savage and decided not to kill him. Decided not to kill him comes after, just like what he says after overpowering Maul in the blade lock and ragdolling him.

It only makes sense that Sidious had to get serious once Maul kicked him, proving that he would actually have to put legitimate effort into ending the duel because rage amped Maul can no longer be played around with below his full extent.

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AnakinVader99

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@anakinvader99:

How is that any less caught off guard than Vader a slow lumbering giant grabbing Sidious before Sidious got the chance to react properly?

Because Sidious wasn't actively fighting Vader. He was focused on torturing Luke whereas Sidious was actively dueling against the combined force of Savage and Maul. Yes, Sidious was hit from behind where he wasn't looking but it is not equally being caught off guard as Vader's surprise grab.

Yeah and Vader in the novelization had a malfunctioning leg, was heavily injured and exhausted. Yes but Sidious shouldn't be completely blind to the huge Force presence of Vader turning good. No, but it would be a lot harder not to notice a guy heavily injured grabbing you then a guy charging at you and Sidious was actively trying to kill Luke so he couldn't have hindered himself that much

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AnakinVader99

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@anakinvader99:

it's basically the Sidious toying with Maul argument no only does it contradict what we see but no evidence supports it

Sidious was toying with Savage and Maul that is clear on screen. As for rage amped Maul, it would make sense that Sidious got serious after being kicked. Star Wars.com also supports this.

Upon arrival, Sidious declared the Sith brothers to be his rivals. In an intense duel, he killed Savage and toyed with Maul, ultimately deciding not to kill his former apprentice.

Star Wars.Com, Darth Maul Biography Gallery, Image 33 of 33

No it doesn't it says he toyed with Maul after killing Savage which would include rage amp

It's not referring to when Sidious tortured Maul with lightning either. It says he toyed with Maul right after killing with Savage and decided not to kill him. Decided not to kill him comes after, just like what he says after overpowering Maul in the blade lock and ragdolling him.

So?

It only makes sense that Sidious had to get serious once Maul kicked him, proving that he would actually have to put legitimate effort into ending the duel because rage amped Maul can no longer be played around with below his full extent.

Why no source supports this and before you say his face it doesn't mean he was actively going all out holding back can make you struggle against someone you would normally beat. Also Anakin was rage amp against Obi-wan yet still lost in canon nowhere in canon does it say Anakin was conflicted and was showing the same amount of rage that he did against Dooku if not more so which just proves rage amps aren't that big of a deal.

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Void_Reborn

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Yeah and Vader in the novelization had a malfunctioning leg, was heavily injured and exhausted. Yes but Sidious shouldn't be completely blind to the huge Force presence of Vader turning good. No, but it would be a lot harder not to notice a guy heavily injured grabbing you then a guy charging at you and Sidious was actively trying to kill Luke so he couldn't have hindered himself that much

Clearly Sidious was blind because he was grabbed unsuspectingly. Your head canon that he shouldn't have been is unsupported as he was taken completely by surprise in the movie itself.

Wrong. A guy charging at you can be heard even when not looking. Just look at the fight, Sidious knew Savage was coming but he just turned around too late. In ROTJ, Sidious had no idea Vader was going to do that and was grabbed outright, completely taken by surprise.

Sidious never expected Vader to do that while he was already in a fight with Maul and Savage where he'd be cautious and in a fighting ready mindset.

I don't know how you'd say they're comparable circumstances.

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#34  Edited By Void_Reborn

@anakinvader99:

No it doesn't it says he toyed with Maul after killing Savage which would include rage amp

Well where else would he have gotten serious then?

So?

Just clarifying..

Why no source supports this and before you say his face it doesn't mean he was actively going all out holding back can make you struggle against someone you would normally beat. Also Anakin was rage amp against Obi-wan yet still lost in canon nowhere in canon does it say Anakin was conflicted and was showing the same amount of rage that he did against Dooku if not more so which just proves rage amps aren't that big of a deal

Doesn't mean he was going all out but he definitely started to get serious there. At worst, moderately serious.

Rage amps are a double-edged sword. But the user of it may also benefit more or be hindered more. Depending on the enemy as well. Anakin having a rage amp would work better against Dooku and worse against Obi-Wan.

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#35  Edited By AnakinVader99

@anakinvader99 said:

Yeah and Vader in the novelization had a malfunctioning leg, was heavily injured and exhausted. Yes but Sidious shouldn't be completely blind to the huge Force presence of Vader turning good. No, but it would be a lot harder not to notice a guy heavily injured grabbing you then a guy charging at you and Sidious was actively trying to kill Luke so he couldn't have hindered himself that much

Clearly Sidious was blind because he was grabbed unsuspectingly. Your head canon that he shouldn't have been is unsupported as he was taken completely by surprise in the movie itself.

Yes but for someone who proclaimed to have good precognition you would think he would notice

Wrong. A guy charging at you can be heard even when not looking. Just look at the fight, Sidious knew Savage was coming but he just turned around too late. In ROTJ, Sidious had no idea Vader was going to do that and was grabbed outright, completely taken by surprise.

Yes but why would he not be aware of someone like Vader much more threatening than Savage and wants to kill him?

Sidious never expected Vader to do that while he was already in a fight with Maul and Savage where he'd be cautious and in a fighting ready mindset.

He was always cautious with Vader and aware that if Vader had the motivation he could unleash his full potential why would he screw it up now

I don't know how you'd say they're comparable circumstances.

Because he always had an eye on Vader and was actually very cautious with him?

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@anakinvader99:

Yes but for someone who proclaimed to have good precognition you would think he would notice

He was probably too into the torture. Lol

Yes but why would he not be aware of someone like Vader much more threatening than Savage and wants to kill him? He was always cautious with Vader and aware that if Vader had the motivation he could unleash his full potential why would he screw it up now because he always had an eye on Vader and was actually very cautious with him?

Yes Vader is a more threatening adversary than Savage but in that situation Sidious doesn't even consider him as an enemy. Up until this point, while their relationship has had some ups and downs, they are still your typical sith master and apprentice. Sidious never would've expected Vader to suddenly grab him from behind and toss him down the balcony.

Meanwhile, he was actively IN a FIGHT with Maul and Savage. The difference is great.

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@anakinvader99:

No it doesn't it says he toyed with Maul after killing Savage which would include rage amp

Well where else would he have gotten serious then?

How about he never got serious at all

So?

Just clarifying..

Why no source supports this and before you say his face it doesn't mean he was actively going all out holding back can make you struggle against someone you would normally beat. Also Anakin was rage amp against Obi-wan yet still lost in canon nowhere in canon does it say Anakin was conflicted and was showing the same amount of rage that he did against Dooku if not more so which just proves rage amps aren't that big of a deal

Doesn't mean he was going all out but he definitely started to get serious there. At worst, moderately serious.

Why?

Rage amps are a double-edged sword. But the user of it may also benefit more or be hindered more. Depending on the enemy as well. Anakin having a rage amp would work better against Dooku and worse against Obi-Wan.

Why? Obi-wan is not more skilled, not faster, stronger or more powerful than Dooku. There is no other way he can compete even if I better match up against someone compared to you but that someone else is extremely amped and much stronger and faster than usual then it doesn't matter if I am better at beating them neither of us can beat them.

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@anakinvader99: If you vehemently disagree with the idea that Sidious was serious by the end of it, why were you of the opinion that "it's just like the Sidious toying with Maul argument. No evidence supports it." ?

Why? Obi-wan is not more skilled, not faster, stronger or more powerful than Dooku. There is no other way he can compete even if I better match up against someone compared to you but that someone else is extremely amped and much stronger and faster than usual then it doesn't matter if I am better at beating them neither of us can beat them.

Because stylistic things. Advantages, disadvantages, how styles perform against one another.

Djem So is a direct counter to Makashi, which is only amplified when someone like Anakin is rage amped, boosting all his physicals and making him even more aggressive.

But what does being more aggressive come with despite the advantage of pressing your opponent? The drawback is you may become reckless, uncoordinated or leave yourself open to counter attacks.

Literally what Soresu, the ultimate defensive form, is made to exploit. That's why Anakin would not be benefiting from a rage amp against Kenobi. If he had a clear mind and was fighting normally, he probably would win against Obi-Wan or just stalemate him, not lose.

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@anakinvader99: If you vehemently disagree with the idea that Sidious was serious by the end of it, why were you of the opinion that "it's just like the Sidious toying with Maul argument. No evidence supports it." ?

I meant as hypocritical for him that he considers Luminara and Grievous fought when as far as we see nothing yet contradicts himself when he denies Palpatine was not serious against rage amped Maul

Why? Obi-wan is not more skilled, not faster, stronger or more powerful than Dooku. There is no other way he can compete even if I better match up against someone compared to you but that someone else is extremely amped and much stronger and faster than usual then it doesn't matter if I am better at beating them neither of us can beat them.

Because stylistic things. Advantages, disadvantages, how styles perform against one another.

But here is the problem with that in canon not only are the forms almost never mentioned we don't know how they stack up

Djem So is a direct counter to Makashi, which is only amplified when someone like Anakin is rage amped, boosting all his physicals and making him even more aggressive.

Yes yet those advantages are not that big of a deal more than once form advantage has not mattered in duels nor are they mentioned often at all

But what does being more aggressive come with despite the advantage of pressing your opponent? The drawback is you may become reckless, uncoordinated or leave yourself open to counter attacks.

That still doesn't change much as you can still do that but if the person is so much faster and stronger than before which means they can protect themselves much faster why would that matter?

Literally what Soresu, the ultimate defensive form, is made to exploit. That's why Anakin would not be benefiting from a rage amp against Kenobi. If he had a clear mind and was fighting normally, he probably would win against Obi-Wan or just stalemate him, not lose.

Again not canon and also pretty sure if a rage amp was that big of a deal as people make it out to be why would that matter? You guys keep saying a rage amp Maul would be ridiculously strong yet form advantage matters more? How come it's so rare to be mentioned nowhere except ROTS does someone go like "Oh they are using this form this is bad for me because it counters mine".

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@anakinvader99:

Yes but for someone who proclaimed to have good precognition you would think he would notice

He was probably too into the torture. Lol

Yes but why would he not be aware of someone like Vader much more threatening than Savage and wants to kill him? He was always cautious with Vader and aware that if Vader had the motivation he could unleash his full potential why would he screw it up now because he always had an eye on Vader and was actually very cautious with him?

Yes Vader is a more threatening adversary than Savage but in that situation Sidious doesn't even consider him as an enemy. Up until this point, while their relationship has had some ups and downs, they are still your typical sith master and apprentice. Sidious never would've expected Vader to suddenly grab him from behind and toss him down the balcony.

Again Palpatine and Vader are known for wanting to kill each other and have been tempted more than once hell didn't Palpatine kill Plaguies while he was drunk? Also, Palpatine refuses to sleep because of that

Meanwhile, he was actively IN a FIGHT with Maul and Savage. The difference is great.

It is without context one he was toying with for a good degree the other he openly threatens, knows he is a threat, knows his apprentice is trying to kill him and he himself wanted Vader replaced less than a minute ago you would think Palpatine would keep an eye on Vader just as much.

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@flolikeyou: ok, i know i’m late, apologies.. but i think the jedi stand a real chance. There’s reason 1: Fay, is force-wise the most powerful here next to adi, able to force ventress into a sleep and back her colleagues up with powerful telekinetic throws to safety. If she can take out ventress- the weaker link physically and mentally of the team before things get hairy, the others can all take out the other two with their combined efforts. Especially where unduli is concerned.

Similarly, in open field- and this is reason 2, gallia can certainly stand more of a chance against grievous or opress than her previous encounters- and if given proper reprieve, can utilise force attacks, like telekinesis or force lightning, dealing damage to savage and possibly gg with their cybernetics. Luminara is also a fairly effective duelist in open field working in tandem with other jedi.

Failing this, the jedi will all still put up a real fight, but once tro or three of them die, a sith victory is pretty much assured. Adi, luminara and fay carry this team, and its hard for me to say this, but they are still not enough if the dark siders can work together well.

But fortunately, they cannot. Reason 3: They all hate each other. They see one another as rivals and want to stab one another in the back if possible. The jedi on the other hand are all colleagues, old friends, and know each other’s strengths and limits, and are able to strategise, work together- unduli’s strengths are in tandem fighting and synergy- the most optimal and effective skillsets in this situation with a jedi team.

So for these reasons, i think thd jedi take this.

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@copper_warrior: Wow thanks so much for your detailed analysis!

I also believe that this fight isn’t as one-sided as the others make it out to be :)

I agree that Adi and Lumi would probably lead the team.

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@anakinvader99:

But here is the problem with that in canon not only are the forms almost never mentioned we don't know how they stack up

Yes yet those advantages are not that big of a deal more than once form advantage has not mattered in duels nor are they mentioned often at all

This is pure headcanon. Makashi's counter being Djem So and its inherent weakness of lacking kinetic buildup or output has always and always will be an issue. It's even mentioned in the very descriptions of the form itself. The idea that it 'doesn't matter' is completely false.

That still doesn't change much as you can still do that but if the person is so much faster and stronger than before which means they can protect themselves much faster why would that matter?

It matters because Dooku isn't that much stronger or faster than Obi-Wan. This isn't a case of Savage Opress as compared to your average Jedi Padawan or youngling. They are both around the same level when it comes to their stats so the form difference matters very much.

Again not canon and also pretty sure if a rage amp was that big of a deal as people make it out to be why would that matter? You guys keep saying a rage amp Maul would be ridiculously strong yet form advantage matters more? How come it's so rare to be mentioned nowhere except ROTS does someone go like "Oh they are using this form this is bad for me because it counters mine".

What is not canon? You are ridiculously lowballing the significance of lightsaber forms and how they interact with one another in a duel right now. If you really think they make little to no difference whatsoever despite numerous sources and evidence in the films themselves that point to them being incredibly important then there's no discussion left to be had here.

Also, Palpatine refuses to sleep because of that

Good for Palpatine. That just means he isn't going to die the same way as his master did.

Again Palpatine and Vader are known for wanting to kill each other and have been tempted more than once hell didn't Palpatine kill Plaguies while he was drunk? It is without context one he was toying with for a good degree the other he openly threatens, knows he is a threat, knows his apprentice is trying to kill him and he himself wanted Vader replaced less than a minute ago you would think Palpatine would keep an eye on Vader just as much.

Also, it doesn't matter about their relationship and if you think Palpatine is always 100% prepared and cautious at all times when Vader is in close proximity of or in the same room as him that there is a possibility he could be killed by his apprentice right then and there even though that's not the case. It doesn't matter because Sidious was factually taken by surprise when that happened to him which is why he ended up getting killed. There isn't much left to say.

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@copper_warrior: Since when can Gallia use force lightning? This team is also basically an inferior version of the one at Hypori that Grievous stomped. The addition of Savage and EU Ventress make this an even greater massacre.

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@theoverdaddy: sorry but that’s bollocks. Fay incapacitates ventress as she was able to do in comics, adi and luminara can both contend with gg and opress with the help of the knights, ventress and opress are not more skilled than adi or unduli, opress winning by luck against adi because the only thing that staggered her was a force blast into durasteel debris (kenobi saw her skills as superior to ventress’s because in the last fight against savage with ventress helping, kenobi said they were outmatched, and in the very next fight with the brothers, took adi with him.) gg also struggled with adi and only won once out of 3 fights with her due to a cramped hallway and adi’s limited mobility. In that same episode she regained her weapon when meeting with plo’s rescue team flanked by 2 clones- so she fought him again and forced him to retreat.

The rest is teamwork, the sith cannot work well together, the jedi can.

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@void_reborn: do not try this with me 😂

Adi can use lightning in jedi starfighter.

Grievous stomped a team of jedi on hypori who were there for days, tired, fatigued, drained, from fighting a million super battle droids with no assistance. Well done.

Fay can and has incapacitated eu ventress proving you have not done your research.

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#49  Edited By Void_Reborn

@copper_warrior:

do not try this with me

Try what?

Adi can use lightning in jedi starfighter.

Lol that's a game feature, should mean literally nothing. How does she even use force lightning while inside of a starfighter? That doesn't even make sense. She shouldn't even be capable of or have knowledge of how to use said ability.

Grievous stomped a team of jedi on hypori who were there for days, tired, fatigued, drained, from fighting a million super battle droids with no assistance. Well done.

Please tell me when it says they've been there fighting for days on end and were fatigued and drained.

Please tell me when it is said that there were a million super battle droids.

This is the description of the Battle of Hypori:

The Battle of Hypori was the result of intelligence gathered by Jedi Master Daakman Barrek and his Padawan, Sha'a Gi, which indicated the presence of a large droid factory on Hypori. A Jedi task force, consisting of Barrek and his Padawan, along with Ki-Adi-Mundi, Aayla Secura, Shaak Ti, K'Kruhk, and Tarr Seirr, was dispatched to the planet to destroy the factory, reinforced by an army of clone troopers. They were to be led by Barrek, due to his superior knowledge of industrial matters.

As the Republic ships emerged from hyperspace, orbital mines caused the majority of the transports to crash behind the Seperatist lines. The task force was quickly surrounded by the massive droid army that was stationed on the planet, and all the clone troopers present were quickly slaughtered. The seven remaining Jedi retreated to an area of the planet where a large number of the Acclamator-class assault ships had crash landed. As they were retreating, Master Barrek attempted to send out a distress call to any nearby Jedi. As Barrek was doing this, he was suddenly attacked by the Supreme Commander of the Separatist Droid Army, General Grievous.

Clone Troopers were quickly slaughtered after the Acclamator was shot down and the Jedi retreated into the safety of the crashed vessel immediately afterwards?

Days of fighting and fatigue? Pure headcanon.

Fay can and has incapacitated eu ventress proving you have not done your research.

She only managed to do that after lethal combat and Ventress attempting to crush her heart with the force. Ventress, Grievous and Savage. She will have no time to pull something like that off again before she is murdered. Even if she does it on Ventress, the other two are going to clean house on the Jedi squadron.

It's not like she can save herself from a lightsaber offensive by Grievous or Savage anyway. Throughout her entire life she is mentioned to have never once felt the need to use a lightsaber when in battle. Ludicrous inexperience against the cyborg who stalemated Mace Windu while hindered in 3 ways or the monstrous Savage Opress? Give me a break..

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@copper_warrior:

Adi can use lightning in jedi starfighter.

This is perhaps the most preposterous and absurd thing I've ever heard.