Silver Surfer vs Jean Grey - telepathy battle

Silver Surfer vs Jean Grey

TELEPATHY ONLY

Round 1 : in-character

Round 2 - bloodlusted

Jean both rounds. Surfer has better range, but that's about it

Feats for Surfer?

This is from his respect thread

Telepathically calms the population of a planet during world-threatening event

The Surfer briefly creates world peace by bathing the world in his cosmic energy.

Can send his thoughts to others galaxies away through hyperspace.

Fights back and destroys the mental intrusions of the Other's creations by channeling his power into his mind. The Surfer proceeds to destroy their dimension of consciousness.

Projects an illusion that tricks an out-of-mind Galactus.

The Surfer frees himself of the Goddess's control over him and resists a psychic blast from Moondragon, an already very powerful telepath, whose powers were amplified greatly by the mind gem. When Moondragon used a similar attack on Prof. X, she put him in a coma.

I know he also kept hidden some planets from Galactus

Not entirely sure what to think of Surfer's telepathy

Most of this is impressive but not very combat-applicable.

And Surfer got hurt by that psychic blast from Mind Gem Moonstone....90s Jean Grey was stalemating Mind Gem Moonstone, and current Jean >>>>>> 90s Jean Grey

@geekryan: I don't think he was ready for that attack from Moondragon, and he also got back up immediately after. When a similar scenario happened with Xavier, he was put into a catatonic state. Xavier has blocked out Mind Stone Moondragon when prepared, but in this particular instance where both Xavier and Surfer are blasted unprepared by Moondragon, Xavier is taken out while Surfer gets right back up

I don't think this shows Surfer's superiority, I just don't think it's a particularly good feat to use to argue against Surfer

Round 1) stalemate, surfer with morals on won't fight to the best of his abilities and will either fight until they're both tired or until he decides to tp hax her.

2) surfer wins, he already took on more powerful foes and came out on top, a portion of the others(multiversal being) who had its own dimension. The great one a being as powerful as galactus with his own psionic reality. He's skilled in enough in tp to trick galactus and keep information away from galactus at will.

Not only that in silver surfer black he took life and psionic energy from everything in the universe using tp and created the uniforce/enigma force.

All of his high feats just blow jean out of the water tbh. She's lacking the feats, give her more time in the new status quo.

@geekryan: @onsipin: yh geekryan has been really weird about surfer's tp. He's got really good feats but Ryan just downplays them.

@koays: he's probably slightly above current jean in terms of telepathy, Jean really lacks the feats to say that she could beat surfer but she has tons of tp feats. The surfer is the reverse of this. Not many feats to his name but his feats are always him fighting some form of abstract entity and coming out on top.

@olorun:

****Not only that in silver surfer black he took life and psionic energy from everything in the universe using tp and created the uniforce/enigma force.

-are you not going to point out that it was Ego that reached out across the universe and gathered life, not surfer. It's not a feat surfer is capable of on his own.

I mean, with the phoenix force Jean can basically do similar things, but theres no point bringing that up here.

He has other impressive feats that can be directly used, like projecting a message to a planet with trillions as its population

*****surfer wins, he already took on more powerful foes and came out on top,

- I would say that Jean has fought similarly powerful foes too

Trolling nightmare and kicking him out of a dream, then freeing all of new York from his influence

Fighting and beating the phoenix in its own dimension/mindspace.

Resisting the phoenix and kicking it out of her mind/body multiple times

Taking cosmic visions of the universe from the stranger that juggernaut screaming on the floor and knocked him out

Entering knull's mind and causing him pain while ransacking his memory's

Causing pain to Lifeseed Nate Grey and bringing him to his knees

Able to shield from psychic attacks from final form onslaught (amped by Franklin Richard's and nate grey, was draining psychic energy from the universe and destroying the Astral plane)

With help from psylocke, Shut down full power Legions mind multiple times

Knocked down Phoenix Emma frost with a psi blast

As a teenager blocks out probes from Green Phoenix (Green Phoenix was able to bypass professor xaviers mental shields casually without even trying)

Teen Jean grey was said to be stronger than adult ultimate Jean grey (teen ultimate Jean grey on cerebro was able to bypass galactus mental defenses and sneak into his mind, and continued to grow stronger from there)

Freed Binary from the psychic control of an hive mind of 9 billion minds

Knocked out the Supreme intelligence (a telepath made up of 10 billion minds) by draining him

I don't think it's that clear cut anymore that surfer can easily win this

@del_torro: it is indeed a feat they achieved together but norrin at that time was at the very bottom of his power having even already lost half of himself to the darkness.

Tbf phoenix jean has never shown to be able to do this but I have no doubt they could be written to.

It was nightmare outside of his dimension and inside jean's mind, albeit a good feat for jean I don't think it's exactly equal to the surfer fighting either the others or the great one.

I don't think it's a Stomp as well, I did say it was close but I was personally leaning surfer. And even said they would come close to stalemating.

it's not that deep

@olorun: hmm, while it is true that norrin was weakened, what Ego did was connect him to all life in the universe and have them send their energy to surfer to empower him. I still don't think it adds much to Surfers repertoire. First of all, it's not a feat he can do on his own, second it's a feat where other people are amping him, so being weakened doesn't really change much.

I think a better feat is his psychic fight against the infant galactus who was still in his incubator. Even though galactus was not at full power yet, Silver surfer had the upper hand and said he could have taken galactus life and used it to heal himself.

*About Phoenix Jean. The phoenix is the source/nexus of psychic energy in the universe (multiverse by some sources), and Phoenix Jean has already shown univer range with her telepathy (same with Phoenix hyperion and Phoenix Rachel hearing and touching all life in the universe), so it doesn't seem far fetched to me. I think it can be argued that a powerful Phoenix host can do it.

*Nightmare was actually in wolverines dream, not jeans mind when jean attacked him. Dreams are connected to the dream realm so I don't think he'd be that nerfed by appearing in people's dreams. I mean, Emma frost couldn't stop him when he was tormenting her in her dreams.

I get what you mean, Surfer has showings against galactus and other cosmic beings and massive psychic raw power, Jean is just beginning to climb up to that level, so it's interesting to compare

@olorun: Idk, I'm whelmed.

Jean scales to Xavier and between the two there's Phoenix, Galactus, Knull, and several abstract and planetary feats that are more direct then Surfers effecting of the Others minions. Xavier in particular is massively outpacing alot of these....

The problem I'm having is that Surfers range kinda needs to be applied to help flesh out his power levels..... whereas we know that off of Earth Rachel, Jean and Xavier possess galactic range and beyond which makes it difficult to give him that as an edge.

All high ends included-

R1- Jean. It's a rough battle for both...but alot of the situations Surfers been in aren't far off from Jean's scaling. But more over Phoenix scaling pushes the boundaries.

R2- Idk.... I prefer to look at the high ends here but it's difficult to split hairs since they both have inherent weaknesses as far as feats go and yet they can't necessarily exploit one another's. Add in that their bloodlusted and it really becomes a matter of "who fights better going all out" and I can't be confident on who because Jean is very casual with the feats that would compare to Surfers...hard to pick

Being an abstract entity is not an argument. Just because they are supposed to be an all-powerful, cosmic being does not mean they are an exceptional telepath, OR proficient in telepathic combat.

Jean has feats that can match the vast majority of what Surfer has done. She is significantly more skilled, versatile, and experienced in telepathic battles. The only thing Surfer has over her is range, which is useless in a fight.

An interesting point...

All abstracts/gods/greater cosmics etcs are not created equal...

The Phoenix, Nightmare, Bette Noir, D'spayre, First Fallen, Death, Merlyn, Knull, Morrigan, Bellasco and even Galactus do not all possess the same level of psychic prowess or defense despite all of them possessing and controlling their own realms and concepts and many being directly compared to eachother. Yet high tier telepaths as strong as Xavier all the way down to stryfe Base Cable have been able to effect some of them despite meeting similar qualifications.

It's why I need to really read the arc with the Other's minions. Because that is something that makes or breaks the argument in terms of if Surfer and Jean have comparable opponents.

If the Other is say, just stated as comparable to Galactus and is otherwise featless, then I'm not moved since a certain pointy featless trashcan got mindraped and still was able to absorb Bette Noir who is compared to Phoenix and a similar situation happened with Rachel TPing the First Fallen....

Basically- I got Surfer feats.... NOW I need Surfer context.

Telepathy, probably Jean both rounds.

Surfer would stomp her had this not ben telepathy though.

Please report back if you've read the arc. I have looked through Surfer's respect thread for his telepathy but that can only give so much information without context. Thank you!

I wanna say Surfer takes it but Teen Jean feats make me pause. IIRC, she went up against Galactus and was able to get in some good hit.

Only with her Pink Form and after having absorbed psychic energy from Galactus, the Phoenix, the planet, and more. It isn't really applicable here.

Nor was the attack telepathic

@del_torro: fair enough.

Reading what you wrote I do think phoenix jean could probably scale to those other phoenix hosts' feats(besides maybe hyperion depending whether or not that feat came from heroes reborn or from previous avengers issue).

I think since both surfer and galactus weren't at full power I'm not sure how to exactly scale that fight. It's more of a skill showing for the surfer imo since they were de powered.

I think his best fight was against the great one who was stated to be galactus level and even the portion of the others that the surfer fought had their own dimension.

I do think in the coming decade jean will have feats to probably beat the surfer but as of now jean has really only scaled to other mutants and characters with unknown psionic power levels.

If I remember correctly Emma or someone else ended up taking care of nightmare no?

@koays: they have "galactus/knull/abstract x feats" yes and every single one of those feats they lose and badly. For example the xavier feat has the added context of xavier being so psionically weak compared to galactus that even when amped by magneto galactus still ignores him for the most part, and as soon as he acknowledgs xavier's presence mentally it gives a huge backlash against xavier that it blows them away.

While surfer consistently fights galactus level beings in tp and either stalemates them or beats them.

@olorun: he does it consistently to "Galactus level" tp users with pure tp consistently? So much it consistent? Please show or direct me to all this consistency with context Please. I'm genuinely curious.

You are using a feat of Xavier from decades ago to justify that Surfer is above current Jean...when Jean is above Xavier.

Surfer does not consistently fight Galactus-level beings in TP lol. And if he does, there is either heavy context or the beings have vague or unremarkable telepathy feats. Jean can replicate most of what Surfer has done, and then some. His only advantage is range. Jean has better skill, versatility, experience in psychic combat, etc.

There is also the fact that Galactus has consistently affected Surfer with telepathy.

@olorun: Not accurate.

By the 90s Xavier was strong enough that he could travel in Astral form millions of miles through a painful interference field and still have enough power to gather and throw 8 billion minds at Galactus then take the same 8 billion minds thrown at him.

Early 2000s Rachel was able to mindlink a group and run through the mind of the First Fallen (stated to be the cosmic opposite of the Phoenix force) and current Rachel ripped through the mind of the Death God Morrigan and suppressed it while sending people to raid its memories.

Emma was recruited by the Fear Lord Nightmare to take out Emplate who he was afraid of. She repeatedly fought, shielded from and even leashed the Phoenix Force using only TP.

Base Cable flat-out broke through and blocked Dspayres illusions and mind rape attempts and then did the same to Bellasco. He also mindraped and curbstomped Stryfe right before Stryfe restrained a recovered Bette Noir who had battled the Phoenix Force as it's peak

Phoenix, Knull, Lifeseed Nate and Nightmare have been matched or overwhelmed by Jean.

Merlyn and Death are the only ones with solid defeats that haven't been undone in rematch against mutant telepaths.

So like I said, I need more info...

@lordofallhumans:

Tp'ing galactus

Beating the great one

Beating the portion of the others in their own dimension.

It's fair to question the reliability of someone's feat when you know nothing about the character but the way you phrased that made it seem like you doubted said feats simply because he's the surfer.

jean wins both rounds

@geekryan: it was literally koays who brought up xavier being capable of whatever surfer does and I simply disproved him right then and there. Xavier shouldn't even be in the convo tbh you should redirect your anger at koays. Every feat I mentioned was surfer fighting a straight telepathic battle... Again you downplaying the surfer for no reason except your hate boner for him.

Surfer with his feats simply edges out jean and accounting the astral plane he stomps.

Heck I can even give that jean has more combat experience because her main power is telepathy hence she had years of development feats. While surfer on panel uses his Other powers waaaaaay more.

Whatever surfer does galactus scales infinitely above it. Simple concept.

@koays: well do tell me why xavier had to resort to throw 8 billion minds at galactus. Xavier still has no feats of affecting Galan with his own tp, nor even coming close to.

Thor level death goddess🥴 don't even bring rachel into this convo pls, she ain't got the feats to even be here.

Again bellasco, despayr. Literally people with no telepathic influence faaaaaaaaaaaaar weaker than the foes surfer faced and even galactus. Your scaling Is just way off.

Jean's connection with the phoenix allows her to do all those things to it.

If phoenix gets continuously "chained" by Emma or whoever that's literally just another low regular feat for phoenix,

@olorun: Without resorting to scaling, what feats does Surfer have to say he is above Jean?

I don’t have a hate boner for Silver Surfer lol. I respect him as a character. What I don’t respect is how wanked he is, especially his telepathy. He is nowhere near Galactus’ level, he is severely lacking in telepathic combat feats, and he’s far less skilled and versatile than most of the high tiers from Earth.

You constantly bash on any character that isn’t cosmic-based, especially the X-Men, yet I call out Surfer for his telepathy and suddenly I have a hate boner lol

1- Because Xavier was trying to talk Galactus out of eating the Skrull homeworld and Galactus asked him why?

Gallery

2- To be honest, the problem I'm having is that I'm not sure Surfer belongs in this convo....not when Rachel's feats are holding as much weight...

Gallery

It's why I'm looking for context for these "cosmics" that Surfer faces because the mutants face realm commanding gods and cosmics all the time and outside of Earth's field are usually galaxy level in range.

3- Dyspare has nearly dropped Dr. Strange on 2 occasions, fought the Phoenix with just a city worth of dread and nearly concurred the world casually with the after effects of an attack by others.....his dread spread is extremely powerful and he had Nightmare and Dweller in darkness about to shit bricks over his fear effect.

All of the Fear Lords scale too and consistently face and gain feats off of Dr. Strange....so it then becomes a question of "Is Surfer a stronger telepath then Strange".....because if the X-paths are scaling off of fodderizing his opponents then that's pretty relevant.

4- I'm taking away Jean's direct feats because of the connection and only using a comparison to Emma and Xaviers who she scales at or above. So if Emma and Xavier have bound, blocked, stalemated and restrained the Phoenix then Jean without a connection could be capable of something similar.

5- You could argue that maybe....but it was made clear 3 separate times during Excalibur that the Phoenix is greater then Galactus even on it's own.

The idea that Emma, who is directly stated to be comparable to Xavier and at multiple points was the strongest telepath on Earth is able to shield from it and it's host...isn't really an anti-feat when all things are considered.

Emma and Xavier have never BEAT the Phoenix....but they've done more then enough to it to comparability to someone who is inferior to a person the Phoenix fodderizes on a regular basis.

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Again, my scaling isn't off.

I just don't have the feats for Surfers opponents to make a clear judgement.

From what info I have now, Surfer effecting insane Galactus is comparable to Emma blocking Phoenix's attack on Scott and less then Xavier stalemating a restrained Dark Phoenix.....impressive sure, but they weren't exactly in a position to fight back were they?

@geekryan: wdym without scaling? Feats without the involvement with other telepaths? Like tp'ing a whole planet?not sure how this is relevant at all.

Unironically this just brought another feat to mind, during some crossover silver surfer destroyed a machinery/psionic being point blank range and the being released a psionic shockwaves that shook the entire universe if I remember correctly, did he not only no sell it he also protected rogue. Jean however with her shields up and a galaxy away got knocked senseless by the wave.

@geekryan: I bash x-men?????????? I literally read and love x-men, you must be confusing me for someone else?? I participate in almost every thread and most times I end up siding with the x-team. Is this just a tactic to validate your unproven feelings?? Like where did that even come from???

@geekryan: again he does have a limited amount of feats due to tp being a side power for him, but literally combating galactus telepathic defenses, advancing and fusing his telepathy with higher dimensional concepts like hyperspace, fighting off and beating multiple abstract level beings in telepathic battle. Heck, skillfully hiding information from galactus while thinking about said information in the moment. If you think surfer is somehow "unskilled" at this point you're just trolling.

Let's not even talk about the astral plane, where I'm certain he would stomp any x-telepath(even together) any day of the week.

You dear sir, are ignorant on the silver surfer, and it shows.

@koays: because chuck couldn't possibly affect Galan with his own tp hence he had to resort to having the thoughts and emotions of the skrulls do all the work wouldnt you agree?

2)surfer has more valid abstract fighting feats than any X-men you mentioned but he somehow doesn't belong on this thread? What does he have to do? Best the beyonder at his weakest? Not only that you try to imply that chuck and Emma are close to galactus level? Weird behaviour for someone who normally stoops that low, what is the real issue here?

Lmao at using mid tier stryfe and an infant(not even born) bette noir if I remember correctly.

Didn't Emma block out god cable? Didn't base cable block out onslaught, to me it seems like waaaaaay weaker characters are capable of blocking out more powerful opponents if not in a straight fight and hiding from said characters.

Again if the supposed "all powerful telepath" that the phoenix is has been beaten restrained and block then its 1 more regular low feat for the phoenix, next to being knocked out by mjolnir.

Surfer tp'ing insane galactus is just that him tp'ing galactus when he's really angry, while the phoenix loses to *checks notes* a weapon made by Tony stark...

Tl;dr you believe that surfer's feats are invalid because... No reason.

@emmafrostxmen: how? If everyone is still disputing in their possible stalemate? Do you know the feats for both characters?

You have yet to present a single scan throughout this thread, and most of your arguments rely on faulty scaling, i.e Galactus, The Others, etc.

So I'm asking you to present feats of Surfer's telepathy that do not involve scaling to other characters.

Stop stating feats and actually show them and cite where they are from.

Galactus is significantly above Surfer in telepathy and has multiple feats above him. Surfer having one feat against Galactus isn't legit when you take consistency into consideration, and the feat has context.

You also keep wanking the abstract/godly beings that have NO notable psychic feats. Yet, when we mention all the times the X-Men telepaths have faced abstract/godly beings, they don't seem to count for you. Hypocritical, no?

If hiding information is the best skill feat that Surfer has....then yikes.

Start presenting actual feats and I can match or surpass each one with one of Jean's feats.

There's a good reason why you have several people going against you in this thread...

@olorun: because jean has better direct telepathic combat feats. that’s not really up for debate in my opinion. surfer may have far better range, but that’s useless here.

and yes i’m hyper aware of both characters feats…

@olorun:

1- Or....because it's one of his go to moves? He threw all the minds of Earth at the Z'nox planet and all the minds of the Galactic Council planet at Ego... that's what Xavier does, he takes the minds of an entire planet into his head and throws it at people.

The Galactus one is actually the only time he did and wasn't trying to fight since he was trying to reason with Galactus.....and mind you this is after being massively weakened.

2-There's alot of useless misinformation and lowballing going on here so I'm gonna cut to the chase..

Your getting really upset, but your missing the point....

I asked for Surfer feats. You told me he fights alot of abstracts.

I told you all abstracts aren't created equal and then named a bunch who have completely different levels of power and psychic abilities so I need context for Surfer's feats.....

Then YOU started lowballing cosmics and telepaths to say they weren't on Surfers level...

The problem is you never actually established Surfer's level.....you just keep saying he fights "abstracts" without saying a single thing that makes these abstracts he supposedly fights impressive.

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I don't understand why you're getting so frustrated when all I've done is ask you who the people he fights are and why I should be impressed....because I DONT KNOW.

If you just tell me Surfer beat a random cosmic with out naming any of its feats, then I'm gonna tell you that Stryfe beat Bette Noir so they must be equals. Because that's the amount of information you've given me so far.

You haven't given ANY context to your own argument, so you can't get upset that you haven't convinced me of anything.

SIDE BAR- You said Stryfe is a mid-tier. That is a lie. Stryfe is ass tier. And not even clean ass tier. He's dirty hooker booty after a long night at the Tacobell strip club tier. None of the hardworking mid-tier psychics trying to get by deserve to be put in the same class as Stryfe. It's disrespectful.

@olorun: listen don't play with me with that " you just don't like Surfer" bullshit. I questioned the reliability because of YOU. For instance I asked that you show me consistency and you brought up the same 3 feats you've been talking about the whole thread. I asked for context and got a whiney paragraph trying to preemptively deflect by suggesting I don't like a fictional character just because I don't agree with you.

Now we got all that shit out of the way how about some actual context like I asked.

@koays: @lordofallhumans: @geekryan: ill be collecting said panels from their respective comics once I finish uni/job.

But for now let's address certain points.

The others and the great one are NOT some low level characters with no psionic powers like some of you have claimed. The others are multiversal beings who dwarf galactus and in the thor annual took every multiversal version of thor+surfer+galactus+ the scrier to take on. Scrier being a being who boasted to be superior to galactus. They're beings of pure psionic power. Beating said beings IS A FEAT OF PSIONIC POWER+COMBAT, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.

Regarding the great one. He's a being that through pure psionic power absorbs whole planets and systems into his higher dimensional psionic reality(where he's absorbed a ton of celestial bodies and civilizations). He's stated to be galactus equal in terms of power and all of his power comes from his own psionic being.

The attempts at saying that Emma and chuck are galactus level or even abstract level are not funny, not one bit.

To x characters have more feats than the surfer???????? Absolutely, but they are feats that only scale them above weaker characters like shadow King/cassandra nova/exodus.

Im wanking the abstract beings???? Howwwww? If you know nothing about said beings HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY BE SAYING I'M WANKING(OVER HYPING THEM)? Make some sense pls.

Pls tell show me where I have lowballed any characters?

@emmafrostxmen: better direct feats?? Which ones? The one fighting nightmare? A fear lord? How are you comparing that to fighting actual abstracts? Fear Lords don't even show up in the cosmic hierarchy, literally below skyfathers🤦🏿‍♂️

@emmafrostxmen: again, we can agree that shes got more combat experience, but everything else by feats norrin is either equal to her or surpasses her.

@olorun: Lol I mean....that's all people are asking for....

You keep saying why Jean, Xavier, Emma, the sun, moon, stars, earth and clouds etc...feats against cosmics don't count or only make them better then other random telepaths. But then you won't tell us what makes Surfer impressive......

I mean your on a tirade about why the Phoenix sucks but won't even tell us what your comparing it to....

Like I could easily spell out why Galactus is a jobber....but if I won't tell you why my characters feats are better what am I really adding to the discussion besides lowballs to make you look bad?

You need to show why these nameless people are impressive and why someone else can't replicate this feat....it's nothing to be mad over.

This ^

@koays: I at NO POINT LOWBALLED THE PHOENIX, HECK I CALLED THE ALL POWERFUL PSIONIC LOSING TO PEOPLE SHE INFINITELY MORE PSIONIC POWER THEN A LOW FEAT, LIKE BEING KNOCKED OUT BY THOR.

@geekryan: ?? Will you have an original thought pls?