Silver Surfer vs DC Villains

Silver Surfer VS Count Vertigo, Arthur Light, Dr. Polaris (Emerson), Chronos, Abra Kadabra, and Psycho-Pirate

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-Post Crisis and onward feats at standard-power for the team.

Leaning towards the team. A lot of them will go down, though.

Team villains.

surfer jobber loses , a serious surfer wins via one blast, planet explodes bye bye

Abra Kadabra solos. Mismatch.

Team. Kadabra would be trouble himself.

Surfer has a shot if possessed by extreme blood lust, however the team wins more often than not.

Surfer Barely

The DC team has an interesting array of hax. If they are able to teamwork, and have a solid plan, they might well take down Surfer. But they will likely kill one another to decide who leads first. =)

Surfer gets his overrated ass shitstomped.

I wonder what reasoning the people saying Surfer wins have for thinking he can beat Abra Kadabra one on one.

The team wins.

Shouldn't Abra Kadabra solo?

Many reasons he has a lot haxed abilities he can go into the astral plane and directly destroy their souls and

has strong resistance to soul erasing haxs even when it's amped by the Soul Gem even has shown resistance to magic

can create black holes

has very powerful matter manipulation he could easily rip them apart at the subatomic level or if he wanted to be a real dick he could just suffocate them by transmuting the air molecules in their lungs into solid metal

like Dr Manhattan he can regenerate from nothing

Can absorb Energy to become even more powerful can even absorb the energy of black holes

he's massively faster than light and has microsecond reaction times

has good durability he tanked the heat of suns survived energy beams powerful enough to one shot planets and has been implied in the comics to be fast enough to pass through black holes and survive

With his cosmic awareness he can detect lifeforms and determine their abilities as well and he has a lot more abilities than that thanks to the the power cosmic

Silver Surfer should never be underestimated he is definitely an OP and dangerous character to fight.

@gentlemantophat: You just posted Surfer's powerset. Explain how he beats Abra Kadabra.

Speedblitz in the face?

Not gonna work lol. People like Wally West, Superman, Jay Garrick use combat speed much more effectively than Surfer and all failed to blitz Kadabra. Not to mention this guy can manipulate time, and do pretty much anything. Surfer doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell against a reality warper.

Nah, anyway I "voted" DC team (under some conditions); It's just that in a battle that involves so much hax, it will be funny to have one character - the Surfer - act like a meat-and-potatoes Superman and just blitz them all with his board "before they can even blink" because "statues don't fight back".

@the_badman: When has Abra Kadabra kept up with Superman and the Flashes combat speed wise? I only remember him casting spells on them while they attempted to bullrush him and that is something Surfer is capable of doing easily.

@brucerogers: I didn't say Kadabra kept up in combat speed. I said they failed to blitz him, as in he cast spells/transmuted them before they could take him down. Surfer may attempt to blitz him, but it'd hardly do him any good.

@the_badman: But we dont know how fast they were running/flying but it was very clearly not FTL. Granted Surfer isnt likely to resort to it in character, but I dont see Abra Kadabra doing anything if he moves rushes at him at those speeds.

@brucerogers: He didn't. And Badman did not say he did. He reacted to their blitzes. The issue is DC's 1st: Flash - Superman #1, by Geoff Johns. At least that's one of the examples I can think of at the moment.

@krleavenger: I agree. But just pointing out that he hasn't proven to react to someone blitzing him at FTL speeds.

@brucerogers: I don't think you can blitz this guy FTL or not because he's a time manipulator. And when Surfer blitzes people, does he do it at the speed of light?

@the_badman: But he still needs to react to use his time manip powers right? And like I said, blitzing at FTL speeds is OOC for Surfer and he only does it during special occasions, like during Godhunter when he was battling Beta Ray Bill and his spacecraft when moving FTL. Or against Thanos during Infinity Gauntlet when he crossed light year in less than a second to snatch it out of his hand. Though he missed his mark.

@brucerogers: Surfer does not showcase FTL combat or blitzing speed anyway so that does not mean much. And 9 out of 10, blitzing feats are mostly unquantifiable. It really too far fetched to claim Kadabra can react to Norrin when he already reacted to someone who's much faster? Especially because that character, no pun intended, mostly fails at applying his speed in combat. Every time Kadabra faced the Flash on the other hand, his speed wasn't a problem for him. And frankly, any speedster faster than Jay Garrick has better combat speed than Norrin, quite easily at that.

@krleavenger: Jay and the Flashes may have faster combat speed than Surfer in the sense that they can throw a million punches a second while the world appears frozen. But in terms of bull rushing ie charging at the target in a straight line? I am not so sure about that. IIRC Jay's body cannot take the strain of travelling at light speed while Surfer can casually cross light years within minutes. I don't see how they are comparable. Again, I am talking strictly about travel speed here.

And either way, I don't think the Flash and Superman were going that fast when rushing him. That's one of the main reasons why they get tagged by far slower characters as well. Surfer's combat skill leaves a lot to be desired but he could still rush him at those speeds if he chooses to. But I doubt he will.

While its true that he needs to react to apply time manip, I don't see why he can't. That's the point of time manip. To manipulate time, you should have a, kind of "time awareness, like people with TK have spatial awareness. I mean, how else does he pluck people from the time-stream? People like Kadabra, Hourman have used this successfully against speedsters. Also, even if Surfer manages to blitz him, it won't do any lasting harm. He will simply reform himself.

BTW, that fight with Beta Ray didn't have any blitzing IIRC. They were both flying FTL and beating each other up. No blitzing. Against Thanos, did he fly away from Thanos a light year mid-combat and then come back to blitz him, or was he already light years away and flew towards Thanos to snatch it?

@the_badman: Unless you are someone like Zoom, you still need to consciously activate your time manip powers to make them work. Or does Abra Kadabra's power work like an auto shield? And how fast were said speedsters moving?. Also I am not arguing for Surfer, just pointing out that he can blitz him if he chooses to.

Against BRB, Surfer was attacking, moving and dodging at FTL speeds. If anything, it's better than a simple bull rush blitz tbh. But my point was to showcase the times when he has utilised his speed in combat. As for the Thanos instance, he crossed a light year before Thanos could put down his raised hand. It was all part of Adam Warlock's plan since that was the only moment the Titan's guard was down.

@brucerogers:

Jay and the Flashes may have faster combat speed than Surfer in the sense that they can throw a million punches a second while the world appears frozen.

And when it comes to dodging blows, running and blitzing people.

But in terms of bull rushing ie charging at the target in a straight line? I am not so sure about that. IIRC Jay's body cannot take the strain of travelling at light speed while Surfer can casually cross light years within minutes. I don't see how they are comparable. Again, I am talking strictly about travel speed here.

That's why I said anyone faster than Jay Garrick. But you are mentioning traveling speed, which is useless in combat. Bullrushes are useless in combat too, unless your goal is to send your opponent into a different location ASAP. Surfer crossing light years within minutes is useless in combat but that is traveling speed accomplished with his board. It's no different than Thor flying at MFTL speed with Mjolnir. But we don't see Thor using Mjolnir to fight like this at MFTL speed.

The only difference between Thor and Surfer is that Surfer can actually use his board in combat. But his combat speed is still not equivalent to his traveling speed. When he actually uses his board in combat, he never moved faster than someone like, lets say, Max Mercury or Bart Allen. This is the best showing of combat speed I could find for Surfer.

Which admittedly is impressive. But you wouldn't see him use it that often, if ever.

And either way, I don't think the Flash and Superman were going that fast when rushing him. That's one of the main reasons why they get tagged by far slower characters as well. Surfer's combat skill leaves a lot to be desired but he could still rush him at those speeds if he chooses to. But I doubt he will.

I get the Superman part but most instances when the Flashes get tagged by slower opponents is often pretty contextual. Like that person tagging him only after getting blitzed several times. Or the Flash being weakened or not being himself. Or that person being amped or Flash not being as fast as he usually is. But ignoring all that, Flash is mostly serious when he fights Kadabra. For reference, this is how Wally reacted when he thought Benjamin Hayes was Kadabra in Waid's Flash Vol. 2 #89.

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Admittedly there is some context being involved in this issue, but you would never see Wally attack someone like the Rogues this way. And in the same issue as I brought up in the previous post, Kadabra almost killed him and later he almost killed Jay Garrick. Based on the context of the issue and usually how the Flashes would fight against him, logically he was moving incredibly fast.

Surfer gets overwhelmed by this team.

@brucerogers:

Unless you are someone like Zoom, you still need to consciously activate your time manip powers to make them work.

He's totally different from Zoom. He has plucked Linda Park out of the timestream and put her sometime else, increased Wally's aging process Hourman style, time travelled etc.. Yeah he needs to consciously think to do all this, but what I'm saying is if you can manipulate time in this manner, you have to be aware of the time-stream.

Or does Abra Kadabra's power work like an auto shield?

I don't recall any autoshields, I never bothered to collect showings of Abra Kadabra.

And how fast were said speedsters moving?

krleavenger beat me to this. There's no reason why the Flashes would hold back against him. Wally knows how powerful he is. Also, he's reacted to both Jay and Wally at the same time.

Also I am not arguing for Surfer, just pointing out that he can blitz him if he chooses to.

Even if he can, it won't put Abra down.

Against BRB, Surfer was attacking, moving and dodging at FTL speeds. If anything, it's better than a simple bull rush blitz tbh.

Yeah I know. Both combatants were beating each other up while flying at FTL speeds. Its not better than a blitz at all, here's why: They're both flying FTL and hitting each other. That's not FTL combat speed being used against an opponent. Blitz is taking your opponent down or attacking him before he can react. The scan krleavenger showed is more FTL combat speed as you're using speed to overwhelm your opponent. If the BRB instance qualifies as FTL combat, I guess lanterns have FTL combat speed too.

But my point was to showcase the times when he has utilised his speed in combat.

Fair enough.

As for the Thanos instance, he crossed a light year before Thanos could put down his raised hand. It was all part of Adam Warlock's plan since that was the only moment the Titan's guard was down.

Then this isn't a blitz as well considering he didn't start flying during combat. This action was part of a plan as you say, so Surfer didn't actually blitz Thanos during combat.

My entire point is super speed is not an advantage you can use against reality warpers. Or do you think Flash or Surfer can beat people like Odin or Ares by blitzing them?

@krleavenger: And when it comes to dodging blows, running and blitzing people.

I don't think Jay is faster than Surfer when it comes to travel speed though.

That's why I said anyone faster than Jay Garrick. But you are mentioning traveling speed, which is useless in combat. Bullrushes are useless in combat too, unless your goal is to send your opponent into a different location ASAP. Surfer crossing light years within minutes is useless in combat but that is traveling speed accomplished with his board. It's no different than Thor flying at MFTL speed with Mjolnir. But we don't see Thor using Mjolnir to fight like this at MFTL speed.

The difference being that Surfer has displayed operational and processing speed Thor never has. Stuff like visiting every capital of the Earth within seconds and penetrating their defences, searching for Namor all over the planet before Dr Strange could finish his sentence, reacting in microseconds multiple times and even the aforementioned instance from Infinity Gauntlet counts since he wouldn't have been able to pin point Thanos and move his hands to grab if his perceptions weren't fast enough to keep up with his travel speed. So does his feat against Beta Ray Bill and Skuttlebutt where he was dodging the spaceship's thrusters, and attacking Bill at the same time. And so on.

IMO, the only thing that is preventing Surfer from being counted as a speedster is the fact that he has never punched million times a second or explicitly shown to perceive the world around him to slow down to a crawl or a standstill. You know, basic speedster stuff. And his lack of willingness to actually use his speed in combat doesn't help matters.

All that being said, the only reason why I am bringing up bullrush speed is because that is how Abra Kadabra reacted to the Flashes in the first place. When they were running towards him. That is essentially a bullrush.

The only difference between Thor and Surfer is that Surfer can actually use his board in combat. But his combat speed is still not equivalent to his traveling speed. When he actually uses his board in combat, he never moved faster than someone like, lets say, Max Mercury or Bart Allen. This is the best showing of combat speed I could find for Surfer.

That honestly depends on what you define as combat speed. If you just define that by the number of times a person can punch or kick within a given amount of time or do some actions while the world appears to explicitly standstill, then no, he hasn't done something like that to my knowledge. Still, I don't think it's fair to outright loop him in with bricks like Thor because he has demonstrated the processing capacity to keep up with his travelling velocity.

I get the Superman part but most instances when the Flashes get tagged by slower opponents is often pretty contextual. Like that person tagging him only after getting blitzed several times. Or the Flash being weakened or not being himself. Or that person being amped or Flash not being as fast as he usually is.

Not always though. Sometimes they just don't move that fast and they end up getting surprised tagged. That's how Nightwing and Deathstroke have done it, barring BS like that infamous fight Identity Crisis of course. Again, emphasis on the fact that they don't always move at FTL speeds or close and they aren't immune to getting surprised.

Admittedly there is some context being involved in this issue, but you would never see Wally attack someone like the Rogues this way. And in the same issue as I brought up in the previous post, Kadabra almost killed him and later he almost killed Jay Garrick. Based on the context of the issue and usually how the Flashes would fight against him, logically he was moving incredibly fast.

Yes but has he reacted to a Flash attempting to attack him in a similar manner?

@the_badman: He's totally different from Zoom. He has plucked Linda Park out of the timestream and put her sometime else, increased Wally's aging process Hourman style, time travelled etc.. Yeah he needs to consciously think to do all this, but what I'm saying is if you can manipulate time in this manner, you have to be aware of the time-stream.

That makes sense on paper, but has he actually displayed the ability to do this?. I mean, Surfer has manipulated time too but that hasn't stopped him from getting surprised time and again.

I don't recall any autoshields, I never bothered to collect showings of Abra Kadabra.

I see.

krleavenger beat me to this. There's no reason why the Flashes would hold back against him. Wally knows how powerful he is. Also, he's reacted to both Jay and Wally at the same time.

Holding back doesn't mean they would be going all out either. Like in the Jay and Wally instance - we don't know how fast they were actually running besides the fact that they were going fast. Do you really believe that they were rushing at him at FTL speeds?

Even if he can, it won't put Abra down.

I suppose. I am not arguing for or against this though. Just discussing whether he can react to Surfer ramming him at FTL speeds.

Yeah I know. Both combatants were beating each other up while flying at FTL speeds. Its not better than a blitz at all, here's why: They're both flying FTL and hitting each other. That's not FTL combat speed being used against an opponent. Blitz is taking your opponent down or attacking him before he can react. The scan krleavenger showed is more FTL combat speed as you're using speed to overwhelm your opponent. If the BRB instance qualifies as FTL combat, I guess lanterns have FTL combat speed too.

Maybe blitz was not the correct term but like I said, I was merely pulling up instances where Norrin has engaged someone while moving FTL. It's a matter of debate whether this counts as FTL combat speed (I personally think it does, but I have met many who disagree) but it still shows us that Surfer's perceptions can match his travel speed.

And I thought lanterns displaying FTL speed in combat now and then was common knowledge?

Then this isn't a blitz as well considering he didn't start flying during combat. This action was part of a plan as you say, so Surfer didn't actually blitz Thanos during combat.

He didn't blitz Thanos but he attempted to. The plan hinged on him taking the gauntlet off his raised hand before Thanos put it down or even realised what was happening (he had discarded the potent cosmic awareness that came with the gauntlet in order to put on a show for Death). Norrin failed because he simply missed his mark.

My entire point is super speed is not an advantage you can use against reality warpers. Or do you think Flash or Surfer can beat people like Odin or Ares by blitzing them?

Of course not, but that wasn't what I was getting at.

@brucerogers:

I don't think Jay is faster than Surfer when it comes to travel speed though.

Norrin can travel past galaxies in seconds. Not a single DC speedster can travel as fast as Silver Surfer Norrin's board.

The difference being that Surfer has displayed operational and processing speed Thor never has. Stuff like visiting every capital of the Earth within seconds and penetrating the country's defences, searching for Namor all over the planet before Dr Strange could finish his sentence, reacting in microseconds multiple times and even the aforementioned instance from Infinity Gauntlet counts since he wouldn't have been able to pin point Thanos and move his hands to grab if his perceptions weren't fast enough to keep up with his travel speed. So does his feat against Beta Ray Bill and Skuttlebutt where he was dodging the spaceship's thrusters, and attacking Bill at the same time. And so on.

Of course. I never said he's like Thor in that department. Quote: "The only difference between Thor and Surfer is that Surfer can actually use his board in combat. But his combat speed is still not equivalent to his traveling speed." I brought up Thor because he can't do anything related to raw speed with Mjolnir even tho it serves like good transportation method. Surfer can, but just like Thor, his movement and fighting speed is insignificant compared to his board's traveling speed.

IMO, the only thing that is preventing Surfer from being counted as a speedster is the fact that he has never punched million times a second or explicitly shown to perceive the world around him to slow down to a crawl or a standstill. You know, basic speedster stuff. And his lack of willingness to actually use his speed in combat doesn't help matters.

Yes I know. But even if he were to have those showings, he wouldn't be as fast as Bart Allen and Max Mercury, and he most certainly wouldn't be as fast as Barry Allen and Wally West, and might as well be called a slowpoke compared to someone like Eobard Thawne.

All that being said, the only reason why I am bringing up bullrush speed is because that is how Abra Kadabra reacted to the Flashes in the first place. When they were running towards him. That is essentially a bullrush.

Those were blitzes. Attacking your opponent at high speed. Bullrushes are when you already catch your opponent and start flying with them forward. Kinda what Death Seed Sentry did to Thor. Blitzing is more like than 4000 punches thing Superman did to Doomsday.

That honestly depends on what you define as combat speed. If you just define that by the number of times a person can punch or kick within a given amount of time or do some actions while the world appears to explicitly standstill, then no, he hasn't done something like that to my knowledge. Still, I don't think it's fair to outright loop him in with bricks like Thor because he has demonstrated the processing capacity to keep up with his travelling velocity.

But I didn't. Reread my post. I was using Thor as a reference and why he is a perfect example of traveling speed being completely irrelevant in any fight (unless your goal is to search for a black hole and put your opponent in it).

Not always though. Sometimes they just don't move that fast and they end up getting surprised tagged. That's how Nightwing and Deathstroke have done it, barring BS like that infamous fight Identity Crisis of course. Again, emphasis on the fact that they don't always move at FTL speeds or close and they aren't immune to getting surprised.

Nightwing caught him when he wasn't fighting anyone so bringing that up doesn't mean much. Deathstroke did not tag Wally. He made him run into his sword because he predicted his movements, which means that Wally for some reason couldn't stop himself, and wasn't strait up tagged. That was just PIS, not low showing. When Abra fought them, they were going for the blitz. That's WAY different.

Yes but has he reacted to a Flash attempting to attack him in a similar manner?

Jay Garrick and Wally West attempted to blitz him from different sides with angry faces in the same issue I brought up when I started this discussion (DC's 1st: Superman - Flash #1). This happened right after he turned Superman into a doll.

He also almost killed Wally West and Jay Garrick few pages prior to this instance simply because of his show.

@krleavenger:Norrin can travel past galaxies in seconds. Not a single DC speedster can travel as fast as Silver Surfer Norrin's board.

Lol but his board certainly doesn't grant him his perceptions :P

Of course. I never said he's like Thor in that department. Quote: "The only difference between Thor and Surfer is that Surfer can actually use his board in combat. But his combat speed is still not equivalent to his traveling speed." I brought up Thor because he can't do anything related to raw speed with Mjolnir even tho it serves like good transportation method. Surfer can, but just like Thor, his movement and fighting speed is insignificant compared to his board's traveling speed.

But again, his board doesn't grant him perceptional speed. That's all him. I don't think Thor would have been able to perform any of the aforementioned feats simply because his mind isn't fast enough to keep up with the speed of his Mjolnir. Unlike Surfer and his board.

No argument on the combat speed part though. Surfer fights like someone with street level combat speed at least 90% of the time.

Yes I know. But even if he were to have those showings, he wouldn't be as fast as Bart Allen and Max Mercury, and he most certainly wouldn't be as fast as Barry Allen and Wally West, and might as well be called a slowpoke compared to someone like Eobard Thawne.

Eh, maybe. I am not well versed on DC Speedsters barring Wally West so I will take your word for it.

Those were blitzes. Attacking your opponent at high speed. Bullrushes are when you already catch your opponent and start flying with them forward. Kinda what Death Seed Sentry did to Thor. Blitzing is more like than 4000 punches thing Superman did to Doomsday.

But are we talking about the same instance?. I don't recall Jay or Wally attempting to punch him 4000 times a second as they were running towards him.

But I didn't. Reread my post. I was using Thor as a reference and why he is a perfect example of traveling speed being completely irrelevant in any fight (unless your goal is to search for a black hole and put your opponent in it).

Yeah, I got the gist of what you were going for and I can't really say I disagree too. Surfer's combat speed feats do indeed leave a lot to be desired. I was strictly going for an out of character Surfer (as I mentioned above a couple of times) rushing towards Abra Kadabra at FTL speeds. But humour me for a bit and lets say he does. You think Abra Kadabra would be able to react to that just because he reacted to Jay and Wally running towards him at unknown but non FTL speeds?

Nightwing caught him when he wasn't fighting anyone so bringing that up doesn't mean much. Deathstroke did not tag Wally. He made him run into his sword because he predicted his movements, which means that Wally for some reason couldn't stop himself, and wasn't strait up tagged. That was just PIS, not low showing. When Abra fought them, they were going for the blitz. That's WAY different.

I did exclude the Identity Crisis fight and my whole point was to show that the Flashes (or any speedster for that matter) don't always go that fast. Their speed varies.

Jay Garrick and Wally West attempted to blitz him from different sides with angry faces in the same issue I brought up when I started this discussion (DC's 1st: Superman - Flash #1). This happened right after he turned Superman into a doll.

Yep, that's exactly the feat I had in mind. So looking at that, let's say Surfer rushed at him in a similar manner (but flying instead of running ofc) at FTL speeds. You think he would have reacted to that?

@brucerogers:

Lol but his board certainly doesn't grant him his perceptions :P

Well I will admit that Surfer's perception is superior to Jay's.

But again, his board doesn't grant him perceptional speed. That's all him. I don't think Thor would have been able to perform any of the aforementioned feats simply because his mind isn't fast enough to keep up with the speed of his Mjolnir. Unlike Surfer and his board.

No argument on the combat speed part though. Surfer fights like someone with street level combat speed at least 90% of the time.

All I'm saying is that just because Surfer can fly millions of times the speed of light does not mean he can run, move, fight, punch, react or think at those speeds. I'm still not sure why you brought up traveling speed.

But are we talking about the same instance?. I don't recall Jay or Wally attempting to punch him 4000 times a second as they were running towards him.

That's not what I'm saying. I was explaining the difference between blitzes and bullrushes.

Yeah, I got the gist of what you were going for and I can't really say I disagree too. Surfer's combat speed feats do indeed leave a lot to be desired. I was strictly going for an out of character Surfer (as I mentioned above a couple of times) rushing towards Abra Kadabra at FTL speeds. But humour me for a bit and lets say he does. You think Abra Kadabra would be able to react to that just because he reacted to Jay and Wally running towards him at unknown but non FTL speeds?

How do you know it's not FTL? I'm not saying it is. You said it is unknown while at the same time claiming it is not FTL. You are contradicting yourself. And whether he can react to FTL attacks or not is debatable, and it would be kinda unprofessional on my part to just say he can do so just because he reacted to Jay's and Wally's attack. But the thing is, I've only seen Norrin use FTL combat speed once.

I did exclude the Identity Crisis fight and my whole point was to show that the Flashes (or any speedster for that matter) don't always go that fast. Their speed varies.

Of course of course. I know that better than anyone else. But there is a difference between tagging someone when he does not fight and tagging someone who tries to blitz you and fights seriously.

Yep, that's exactly the feat I had in mind. So looking at that, let's say Surfer rushed at him in a similar manner (but flying instead of running ofc) at FTL speeds. You think he would have reacted to that?

Again, it would be stupid of me to say he could, so no.

Typically, while Kadara thinks he deals with Surfer, his board hit him behind the head like he did so many times before.

People will blindly back a FTL character if he's popular enough.

Norrin gets stomped.

This could go either way. Honestly, anyone who claims either side could stomp is very likely misinformed or a fanboy

how he beats Abra Kadabra Maybe it has to do with the fact that he has fought beings way more powerful than Abra Kadabra and survived

he fought Mephisto who has way more powerful magic than Abra Kadabra and nearly overpowers Mephisto in his own realm where he is at his most powerful

he's even Resisted having his soul erased from existence he's tanked attacks from Ego that could easily destroy planets and he way more feats that puts him above Abra Kadabra so I am so going ask you the same thing Explain how Abra Kadabra beats Surfer?

lol. I'm waiting for your analysis of the fight then.

Let's see...

Silver Surfer could solo any of these guys alone. He's a high harold level character who has fought reality warpers and cosmic beings way worse then any of the villains. All of them as a unit is a lot harder because of their hax and general time manipulation abilities they can inhibit the surfer's speed. There are many other reasons listed by users much, much, much smarter than I the reasons for why this is truly a toss up.

I stand by my prior statement.

Alright. I respect your point. But I still keep mine. Surfer gets stomped. Abra Kadabra can alone. Adding Arthur Light (who already one shotted Superman) things get really bad for Norrin. Its durability is not much higher than that of Superman. I do not even need to mention the rest of the team. But I can list feats, if you like. However, it seems to me that you already know them.

@brucerogers:

That makes sense on paper, but has he actually displayed the ability to do this?. I mean, Surfer has manipulated time too but that hasn't stopped him from getting surprised time and again.

I think Abra's time manip>>Surfer's. It resembles Hourman's. But yeah, this hasn't been confirmed on panel. I still maintain that speedsters have no chance against chronokinetics. Otherwise, people would start saying Flash beats Franklin Richards lol.

Holding back doesn't mean they would be going all out either. Like in the Jay and Wally instance - we don't know how fast they were actually running besides the fact that they were going fast. Do you really believe that they were rushing at him at FTL speeds?

Again, we don't know for sure. But lets say they weren't and Surfer manages to successfully blitz this dude. It really won't change the outcome.

Maybe blitz was not the correct term but like I said, I was merely pulling up instances where Norrin has engaged someone while moving FTL. It's a matter of debate whether this counts as FTL combat speed (I personally think it does, but I have met many who disagree) but it still shows us that Surfer's perceptions can match his travel speed.

And I thought lanterns displaying FTL speed in combat now and then was common knowledge?

I'm really not very free on using the term "FTL combat speed" on everyone. That's why I don't say characters like Superman, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern have FTL combat speed, even though they definitely have FTL reaction speed. FTL combat speed would be Wally battling Thawne in a picosecond. Both fighters flying in the same direction at FTL speeds and hitting each other at regular speeds I don't consider to be FTL in combat, because the relative motion between them is not that much. I'd say throwing punches and kicks at your opponent at the speed of light is FTL combat speed.

Honestly, I'm not very knowledgeable on GLs, but I've heard that they have excellent reaction time. I recall Kyle/Hal fighting Sinestro in GL Rebirth in a similar manner as Surfer and BRB above in that they were flying pretty fast in space and shooting each other.

He didn't blitz Thanos but he attempted to. The plan hinged on him taking the gauntlet off his raised hand before Thanos put it down or even realised what was happening (he had discarded the potent cosmic awareness that came with the gauntlet in order to put on a show for Death). Norrin failed because he simply missed his mark.

K.

Of course not, but that wasn't what I was getting at.

K.

@gentlemantophat:

how he beats Abra Kadabra Maybe it has to do with the fact that he has fought beings way more powerful than Abra Kadabra and survived

Excellent logic. Superman has fought and survived Mxyzptlk, he should wipe the floor with Odin and Thanos' asses at the same time. Batman has fought Clayface and survived, he should stomp Wolverine easy.

he fought Mephisto who has way more powerful magic than Abra Kadabra and nearly overpowers Mephisto in his own realm where he is at his most powerful

Mephisto is a f*cking jobber. At his best, he has fought Galactus evenly. I don't believe you're seriously using this example. Kent Nelson Fate, who is leagues above Surfer, has failed to undo Abra's actions when he fought Barry way back in Flash vol.1.

he's even Resisted having his soul erased from existence he's tanked attacks from Ego that could easily destroy planets and he way more feats that puts him above Abra Kadabra so I am so going ask you the same thing Explain how Abra Kadabra beats Surfer?

Has Surfer resisted reality warping (or in this instance, reality altering tech, which is as good)? Abra turns him into a puppet, or reduces him into an infant, or wipes him from existence with a gesture. Do you even understand what reality warping means? He can do ANYTHING to Surfer.

I don't believe how overrated this character is.

@krleavenger:

Norrin can travel past galaxies in seconds. Not a single DC speedster can travel as fast as Silver Surfer Norrin's board.

Wally has outran the Big Bang/Crunch or something like that (in the Black Flash arc IIRC); pretty sure that's way faster than traversing galaxies.

@nucleon: Like he did so many times? You mean like Thor was able to see it coming?

For some reason, it looks like Thor has the Surfer's number. Maybe Power Cosmic can't trump Divine Power or something. And people tend to forget that Thor is quite physically fast (in spite of being somewhat, eerr, slower, mentally speaking). =)