Silver Surfer Vs Cyborg Superman

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Claymore1998

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@claymore1998: I cant provide scans on my mobile so I'll get back to you on this later when I can.

Sure no problem , take your time ^_^

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DrF8

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It's a pretty hard one...

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TearoftheDragon

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@thetruebarryallen: At the start of Annihilation Surfer literally senses something different in the universe and goes to see what it is. He had senses the Annihilation wave that came from the Negative Zone into his universe so he would more than likely sense and be able to find Henshaw but that doesn't mean it will help him fight though.

Saying that I believe surfer would edge it based on his versatility, he could likely isolate and trap Henshaw's consciousness.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thetruebarryallen: At the start of Annihilation Surfer literally senses something different in the universe and goes to see what it is. He had senses the Annihilation wave that came from the Negative Zone into his universe so he would more than likely sense and be able to find Henshaw but that doesn't mean it will help him fight though.

Saying that I believe surfer would edge it based on his versatility, he could likely isolate and trap Henshaw's consciousness.

How?

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Bo88gdan

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SS would win

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Apocalypse3

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@claymore1998 said:

@thetruebarryallen: I think you misunderstand. You are trying to equate the two based on Unholy Alliance story. I am merely pointing that after the said story came a marvel universe wide crossover Annihilation where Silver Surfer receives a decent upgrade. In other words , Surfer after Annihilation story is more powerful than Surfer before the said story which include unholy alliance story that you are referring to.

My question to you was is doesn't that make Surfer the superior one as Surfer was able to stalemate in his weaker incarnation ?

Henshaw himself gained more experience after that fight, he also got a tad "buffed" after that storyline, and once again, I don't think Surfer wins a majority, nor do I believe that Henshaw wins a majority.

The two both have incredible versatility, strong showings in combat, and multiple ways to dispose of the other. There isn't any decisive advantage that Surfer holds over Henshaw or the other way around.

They're just too equal :3

(Also the notification system prevented me from seeing this when you originally posted it)

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Homer_X

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Could go either way

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Claymore1998

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Henshaw himself gained more experience after that fight, he also got a tad "buffed" after that storyline, and once again, I don't think Surfer wins a majority, nor do I believe that Henshaw wins a majority.

I am not sure what tad "buffed" are you referring to. If there is a genuine evidence of upgrade on Henshaw after the said story, would you be able to post accurate evidence?

I disagree on all the rest but from what I understand you did not want a debate on the matter. If you are however keen just let me know.

@tearofthedragon said:

Saying that I believe surfer would edge it based on his versatility, he could likely isolate and trap Henshaw's consciousness.

How?

Exactly like how Darkseid did to him during Hunter/ Prey Story Arc. Silver Surfer himself is a pretty powerful matter manipulator.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thetruebarryallen said:

Henshaw himself gained more experience after that fight, he also got a tad "buffed" after that storyline, and once again, I don't think Surfer wins a majority, nor do I believe that Henshaw wins a majority.

I am not sure what tad "buffed" are you referring to. If there is a genuine evidence of upgrade on Henshaw after the said story, would you be able to post accurate evidence?

I disagree on all the rest but from what I understand you did not want a debate on the matter. If you are however keen just let me know.

@thetruebarryallen said:

@tearofthedragon said:

Saying that I believe surfer would edge it based on his versatility, he could likely isolate and trap Henshaw's consciousness.

How?

Exactly like how Darkseid did to him during Hunter/ Prey Story Arc. Silver Surfer himself is a pretty powerful matter manipulator.

Alright - here's what I have to say.

1.) Characters evolve over time, and the two stories that've been mentioned here for Henshaw (Hunter/Prey & Unholy Alliance) took place in 1994 & 1995, so they're a good 20 years old at this point.

In this 20 years both Cyborg Superman & Silver Surfer have had time to grow, become better (or worse) characters, and IMHO they both got better. Surfer got the upgrade you've mentioned, and Henshaw has been shown a much greater versatility with his own abilities, able to match a multitude of experienced Lanterns (Hal, Guy, etc) and was able to KO Superman in 3 panels when he had his Yellow Power Rings.

Cyborg Superman has upgraded himself with technologies over the years, I can't cite specific issue numbers - but his showings have improved tenfold since his earlier appearances in the story-lines you're referencing.

As to the reason why I have no need to debate the subject, I've already done so in much greater depth & detail with one of the best debaters I've seen on this site, Killemall, and we both came to the conclusion that neither opponent has a true majority or any skills/abilities that would give them a decisive win over the other combatant.

Lastly - I'm asking HOW Surfer would isolate & trap Henshaw's consciousness. IIRC Darkseid was able to do so with the Omega Effect, and last I knew Surfer didn't have such an ability.

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Claymore1998

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#61  Edited By Claymore1998

@thetruebarryallen said:

Alright - here's what I have to say.

1.) Characters evolve over time, and the two stories that've been mentioned here for Henshaw (Hunter/Prey & Unholy Alliance) took place in 1994 & 1995, so they're a good 20 years old at this point.

I am not sure you could just say characters evolve from time to time as a sufficient rebuttal though. You would need to provide a reason why that wouldn’t work on him given he is facing one of the most powerful matter manipulator at this level, at least that is what I would like to think.

Given how Darkseid was able to trap Henshaw inside a crystal ball, and given how Silver Surfer himself has on more than one occasion used molecular manipulation on planetary scale, I would think you would need a better counter than simply saying it's a bit old or that characters evolve.

In this 20 years both Cyborg Superman & Silver Surfer have had time to grow, become better (or worse) characters, and IMHO they both got better. Surfer got the upgrade you've mentioned, and Henshaw has been shown a much greater versatility with his own abilities, able to match a multitude of experienced Lanterns (Hal, Guy, etc) and was able to KO Superman in 3 panels when he had his Yellow Power Rings.

I am not sure how Henshaw showing more versatility or gaining yellow ring somehow changes anything given neither of that is pertinent to the question being asked. Question being asked is what is to suggest Henshaw's body as a whole cannot be transmutated? Its a strategy that has been used on Henshaw before and worked.

Character evolving and learning their powers better as time passes is true for Silver Surfer too, what however is more apparently is that he received a bonafied upgrade from Galactus himself while I do not believe Cyborg did.

Cyborg Superman has upgraded himself with technologies over the years, I can't cite specific issue numbers - but his showings have improved tenfold since his earlier appearances in the story-lines you're referencing.

I clearly disagree with this assertion then because this seem more like an opinion as opposed to a canon upgrade.

As to the reason why I have no need to debate the subject, I've already done so in much greater depth & detail with one of the best debaters I've seen on this site, Killemall, and we both came to the conclusion that neither opponent has a true majority or any skills/abilities that would give them a decisive win over the other combatant.

That's okay it's your opinion and I can't say anything to that.

Lastly - I'm asking HOW Surfer would isolate & trap Henshaw's consciousness. IIRC Darkseid was able to do so with the Omega Effect, and last I knew Surfer didn't have such an ability.

I did address how. During Hunter/ Prey story arc Darkseid was able to matter manipulate Henshaw's body and trapped him inside a crystal ball. Given Silver Surfer himself has powerful matter manipulation as well as ability to trap people inside his board I see no reason why this should not work.

Just to showcase Silver Surfer matter manipulation, here's an example of an weakened Surfer after a prolonged battle undoing all the damage wrought by Enslaves with ease.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Or re-igniting a dying star in the microverse

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

And here is Silver Surfer trapping Legacy (Genis Vell) inside his board, to suggest not only can Silver Surfer matter manipulate Henshaw's body but also trap his consciousness inside his board akin to what Darkseid did to him inside a crystal sphere.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Is there a reason to believe this would not work?

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@claymore1998: I'm going to reply to a couple of your points in there:

I did address how. During Hunter/ Prey story arc Darkseid was able to matter manipulate Henshaw's body and trapped him inside a crystal ball. Given Silver Surfer himself has powerful matter manipulation as well as ability to trap people inside his board I see no reason why this should not work.

Once again, I'm fairly sure Darkseid used the Omega Effect to trap Henshaw, pretty sure that's what the wiki for Cyborg Superman agrees with as well. The wiki might be wrong, but I don't have the scans on me right now - maybe you have them?

Secondly, a consciousness isn't matter to be manipulated, it's not actually something one can physically touch or hold in their hands.

Surfer could potentially manipulate the physical BODY of Cyborg Superman into his board, but his consciousness would be free to find a new piece of technology to inhabit, thus making it nearly impossible for matter manipulation to be the end all be all to this fight.

Is there a reason to believe this would not work?

The above reasonings are why I don't see this working, Killemall didn't see it working either from what I recall in our previous conversations.

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TearoftheDragon

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@thetruebarryallen: Earlier in his career he did show the ability to shunt a consciousness out of another person or object, also he has impressive matter manipulation,he could change cyborg's body into an inert matter form then trap him in his board. Not saying it would work or that he would win but he has shown on many occasions how much he can mess with tech with just a thought.

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Slade-Wilson

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I don't think SS could truly "kill" Henshaw since he's just a consciousness that can keep recreating himself with technology, and because of that I think Cyborg Superman would eventually win.

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TheSuperHuman

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My money is on Silver Surfer, post-Annihilation Upgrade.

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TheGrayGhost

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The Cyborg Superman's abilities though impressive , are in every category outmatched by Surfer. Physically Henshaw is weaker than Clark, and the fight pretty much ends when Surfer rips him apart a la Doomsday clone/ transmutes him / TPs him/ opens up a black hole etc

Thats without going to stuff where Surfer can specifically fight at FTL speeds ( through time PC Superman style) and Henshaws response to Superman Red dragging him to the sun at " near light speed" is " OMG stop! Stop! I can't react, I can't fight , I give up!"

Henshaws is pretty potent with his technopathy but a) there's nothing technological to exploit here, unless the OP specifies they are fighting inside STAR labs or something b) Surfers a pretty potent matter manipulator himself ( shutting down every electronic device on the planet with ease etc)

Surfer obviously can't *kill* him, few can . But defeat ? Sure. Easily , given the speed advantage and his superior/ more varied powers

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thetruebarryallen: Earlier in his career he did show the ability to shunt a consciousness out of another person or object, also he has impressive matter manipulation,he could change cyborg's body into an inert matter form then trap him in his board. Not saying it would work or that he would win but he has shown on many occasions how much he can mess with tech with just a thought.

Interesting, I agree that Surfer could manipulate Cyborg Superman's body via molecular manipulation; however, I am curious as to how quick he'd be to resort to that in a fight.

As for technopathy/messing w/tech I think that Cyborg Superman is the superior technopath, especially since he took control of billions of technological life forms WHILE fighting the Green Lantern Corps at the same time - so he had pretty split focus, he's also altered a portion of the source wall containment which is made up of some fairly powerful technology.

Since CS can manipulate his own body & target specific weaknesses on spot I'm speculating if he could create a device similar to Doom's (I think it was Doom) to absorb Surfer's energies, if so that'd really change the tide of battle.

This is why I hate Surfer vs Henshaw battles haha, there is a ton of speculation over who would do what first.

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TearoftheDragon

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@thetruebarryallen: Good points. Pretty much a 50/50 depending on who does what first. Has CS ever shown durability to being at the creation point of a Black Hole? If he has then I would say he would take a majority but I don't think a clear winner can be stated.

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Simon_the_digger

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thetruebarryallen: Good points. Pretty much a 50/50 depending on who does what first. Has CS ever shown durability to being at the creation point of a Black Hole? If he has then I would say he would take a majority but I don't think a clear winner can be stated.

I'm FAIRLY sure he's been sucked through a Black Hole & Survived - wait, yep, I just found it in Saren's respect thread for the character.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

In Adventures of Superman #531 he was teleported to the event horizon of a black hole (seen in the scans above) and he didn't suffer any visible damage. This black hole actually spit him out in the Marvel Universe where he then fought a version of Silver Surfer (Surfer/Lantern Holy Alliances) and stalemated him - granted it was before Surfer's annihilation upgrades. Cyborg Superman escaped and then went face to face with Parallax Hal Jordan who didn't/possibly couldn't kill him - so he trapped him in the source wall, which CS eventually manipulated & escaped.

But yeah, it's pretty much a 50/50 because they both have the means to put the other down, they have similar physical stats, and they're just REALLY even.

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Kingant27

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SS wins, but in a very good fight IMO...

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TearoftheDragon

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@thetruebarryallen: Cool, nice find should see him survive then although the energy output of a created Black Hole and the energy at it's moment of creation are different. CS is kind of crazy powerful really, not sure how supergirl recently took him on.

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thetruebarryallen: Cool, nice find should see him survive then although the energy output of a created Black Hole and the energy at it's moment of creation are different. CS is kind of crazy powerful really, not sure how supergirl recently took him on.

I think N52 Cyborg Superman is much weaker than his Pre 52 version. Cyborg Superman was an absolute POWERHOUSE near the end of the Pre-52 continuity, he was dominating the Lantern Corps before, and during the Sinestro Corps War. He only "died" because he willing sat in the center of an explosion that could've destroyed an entire galaxy IIRC.

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TearoftheDragon

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@thetruebarryallen: Fair point, he hasn't recently shown anything like that. Never read him much only caught him in crossovers.

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Mexicans with sledgehammers will do the trick.

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Claymore1998

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Once again, I'm fairly sure Darkseid used the Omega Effect to trap Henshaw, pretty sure that's what the wiki for Cyborg Superman agrees with as well. The wiki might be wrong, but I don't have the scans on me right now - maybe you have them?

We don’t see anything being said or explained on panel all we see is Darkseid blast Cyborg Superman with his omega beam and all that is left is a crystal ball. In a later story it is shown that Cyborg Superman was inside the crystal ball all the time helpless.

I still don't see what suggests Silver Surfer could not replicate that.

Secondly, a consciousness isn't matter to be manipulated, it's not actually something one can physically touch or hold in their hands.

Why not? Are you not trying to bound Silver Surfer with the real world limitation here? Silver Surfer has had no problem manipulating gravity or even souls, why would something like consciousness be beyond his capabilities to matter manipulate.

Surfer could potentially manipulate the physical BODY of Cyborg Superman into his board, but his consciousness would be free to find a new piece of technology to inhabit, thus making it nearly impossible for matter manipulation to be the end all be all to this fight.

That's your prerogative. Given Cyborg Superman has been a victim of matter manipulation before I honestly dont see why Silver Surfer couldn't.

Also what do you mean find new piece of technology, there has to be something lying in the battle field to find to begin with.

The above reasonings are why I don't see this working, Killemall didn't see it working either from what I recall in our previous conversations.

What reasoning above ? That you are trying to put a real life limitation of what Norrin can or can not do with his matter manipulation? Also I am not sure why you keep bringing up your conversation with Killemall again and again. No disrespect to him but i see no reason why your prior consensus with someone else should dictate our debate.

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Hiddenlight

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This is a hard matchup for Surfer. Probably he will try to drain Cyborg Superman at first, wich he could, but if they are on earth or in another planet, CS would probably recover himself in seconds. Unless he manages to drag the fight to the Astral Plane or somehow erase Cyborg Superman consciousness, or even BFR his mind into the board, this would be an eternal stalemate. I will give it to Surfer though in a Hard 6.5/10 if he doesn't know nothing about CS, and 8/10 if his cosmic awareness works to this battle. Strenght and Speed would be non factors (If this is a Morals On/No bloodlusted Surfer, they are pretty much equalized there).

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@claymore1998: Looks like I got into the debate I wanted to avoid :P

We don’t see anything being said or explained on panel all we see is Darkseid blast Cyborg Superman with his omega beam and all that is left is a crystal ball. In a later story it is shown that Cyborg Superman was inside the crystal ball all the time helpless.

He was blasted by the Omega Beams twice & resisted them the first time, so he resisted the molecular manipulation at first - from the Omega Effect, which is incredibly powerful.

Where did it say Henshaw was helpless that entire time, I'm curious & don't remember the story particularly well to be honest.

Why not? Are you not trying to bound Silver Surfer with the real world limitation here? Silver Surfer has had no problem manipulating gravity or even souls, why would something like consciousness be beyond his capabilities to matter manipulate.

No, I'm bringing up the fact that a consciousness literally isn't a physical thing, nor has Henshaw's consciousness ever been manipulated by molecular manipulation or anything else. You're speculating Surfer has powers that you haven't shown he's demonstrated, and I'm not a Surfer expert so I'm going to ask for proof of Surfer manipulating a consciousness that has been shown to inhabit/possess other beings.

That's your prerogative. Given Cyborg Superman has been a victim of matter manipulation before I honestly dont see why Silver Surfer couldn't.

Henshaw's ability to hop into other pieces of technology became better after his fight w/Darkseid. Henshaw literally took control of a portion of the Source Wall (incredibly powerful) after that, he later displayed the ability to project himself into billions of techno-organic life forms WHILE fighting the Green Lantern Corps, his feats in where he could project himself & over how much he could project himself became better after that fight.

I'm willing to admit that Henshaw's body could be manipulated, but not his consciousness.

Also what do you mean find new piece of technology, there has to be something lying in the battle field to find to begin with.

No battlefield was stated - the default would be Earth, no?

There's PLENTY of technology on Earth for CS to inhabit.

What reasoning above ? That you are trying to put a real life limitation of what Norrin can or can not do with his matter manipulation? Also I am not sure why you keep bringing up your conversation with Killemall again and again. No disrespect to him but i see no reason why your prior consensus with someone else should dictate our debate.

You're re-wording my argument incorrectly.

I'm not trying to put a real world limitation on what Surfer can do with his abilities, I'm bringing up the fact that Cyborg Superman's consciousness hasn't been shown to have been manipulated whereas his physical body has. He's also resisted soul attacks on the astral plane, so he could escape from that.

I'm bringing up my conversation with Killemall again and again because of two reasons:

  1. He's incredibly knowledgeable on Silver Surfer and I trust his judgement.
  2. You haven't brought anything new to this argument that hasn't already been discussed with him, I dislike having the same debates about the same 3 or 4 points over and over again.

Also - how many times does Surfer directly resort to molecular manipulation as his style of battle, when is it ever his first move, I'm not saying it's not a valid tactic, I'm just wondering how often he does it within the first 2 seconds of a fight, because while Surfer could manipulate Henshaw, it's also possible that Henshaw could drain Surfer.

The two combatants both have incredibly easy ways of putting down the other combatant, but there's absolutely nothing to support who would perform their winning move first - it's why this fight, is, will, and always will be IMHO, a stalemate.

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Claymore1998

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He was blasted by the Omega Beams twice & resisted them the first time, so he resisted the molecular manipulation at first - from the Omega Effect, which is incredibly powerful.

Darkseid was weakened by his recent bout with Doomsday so Darkseid certainly wasn’t operating at the peak level.

Second while Omega beams might be capable of manipulating matter, I would stake claim that Silver Surfer is a better matter manipulator than Darkseid, unless you have evidence to the contrary.

Where did it say Henshaw was helpless that entire time, I'm curious & don't remember the story particularly well to be honest.

To be blunt I do not think you've read the story and are merely going by what you've seen been posted on comicvine. After the whole Hunter/ Prey story arc Darkseid frees Cyborg Superman from the crystal ball where he was trapped helplessly for the whole duration and sends him after Superman. If Cyborg wasn’t helpless it wouldn’t make sense for him to be bound inside the said crystal prison for the time being.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

No, I'm bringing up the fact that a consciousness literally isn't a physical thing, nor has Henshaw's consciousness ever been manipulated by molecular manipulation or anything else. You're speculating Surfer has powers that you haven't shown he's demonstrated, and I'm not a Surfer expert so I'm going to ask for proof of Surfer manipulating a consciousness that has been shown to inhabit/possess other beings.

I disagree. Silver Surfer has never been bound by physicality. Neither gravity nor souls are inherently physical by nature and Silver Surfer has had no problem manipulating them.

And example of this would be when John Aman comes to Defenders lair in his spirit form gets absorbed and crushed by Silver Surfer.

Furthermore, Silver Surfer has actually fought and defeated a living disembodied consciousness called Harrow.

Silver Surfer is not bound by the physicality of thins are you are presuming he is.

I'm willing to admit that Henshaw's body could be manipulated, but not his consciousness.

While being able to manipulate his physical body is more than enough replicate what happened during Hunter/ Prey as that is precisely what was done to him.

The second part of it is your personal opinion and not a derivative of fact that anyone is bound to accept.

If Silver Surfer's ability to stop his consciousness is being question then its easy to refute because Norrin has shown to shield an entire planet from energy fluctuation with a simple blink of his eye. He can also just as easily wipe out the whole planet thereby take out any technology there for Henshaw to even inhibit.

No battlefield was stated - the default would be Earth, no?

There's PLENTY of technology on Earth for CS to inhabit.

There won't be when Silver Surfer can destroy the entire planet with all but 1 single energy discharge. Or are we questioning Surfer's ability to blow up the planet too?

I'm not trying to put a real world limitation on what Surfer can do with his abilities, I'm bringing up the fact that Cyborg Superman's consciousness hasn't been shown to have been manipulated whereas his physical body has. He's also resisted soul attacks on the astral plane, so he could escape from that.

Which is more or less the exact same thing. You personal opinion suggest Silver Surfer cant manipulate his consciousness because it is not a physical thing while I would argue neither is gravity, or soul which Silver Surfer has had no problem manipulating.

That is just a real world physical limitation you are trying to put on Silver Surfer.

I'm bringing up my conversation with Killemall again and again because of two reasons:

  1. He's incredibly knowledgeable on Silver Surfer and I trust his judgement.
  2. You haven't brought anything new to this argument that hasn't already been discussed with him, I dislike having the same debates about the same 3 or 4 points over and over again.

Regardless of his proficiency in debate, its inconsequential when you are debating with a different person altogether. Comics, at the end of the day, is a literature construct of art and words and as such are open to various interpretation. I do not have to be bound by his interpretation or yours for the matter, neither are you bound by mine.

A better way to debate is to forget what consensus you reached with the aforementioned user and try debating me.

Also - how many times does Surfer directly resort to molecular manipulation as his style of battle, when is it ever his first move, I'm not saying it's not a valid tactic, I'm just wondering how often he does it within the first 2 seconds of a fight, because while Surfer could manipulate Henshaw, it's also possible that Henshaw could drain Surfer.

Silver Surfer has used molecular manipulation as his first most of attack against Evans. That's one example I can think of. Beyond that I am not entire sure when he's done so as his first mode of attack.

Inconsequential though because Silver Surfer can keep fighting Henshaw long enough to eventually resort to the said tactic.

Henshaw could drain Surfer, well, Surfer has defense against the said tactic, moving the battle to astral plane where it being the very source of his power becomes impossible to drain. Silver Surfer hasnt, unless a part of a big plot, being drained. The example of him being drained are limited to in his battle with Quasar where he was only capable of draining any energy Silver Surfer unleashes in his battle, then there are 2 examples of him being drained by Dr. Doom the same person who goes around draining Galactus/ Beyonder / Celestials etc. Then we have Black Panther do the same using Doom's technology and finally dynamo city replicated that when they were imbued by celestial technology provided to them by Thanos.

Draining Norrin isnt as easy are you might be thinking.

The two combatants both have incredibly easy ways of putting down the other combatant, but there's absolutely nothing to support who would perform their winning move first - it's why this fight, is, will, and always will be IMHO, a stalemate.

I disagree, I don't see an "increadibly easy" way for Cyborg to put down Norrin to be honest. Norrin on the other hand could try and trap Cyborg on his own board, to try and matter manipulate him into non-existence, or simply defeat him with big enough energy discharge which has been shown to create black hole.

Given Cyborg has been defeated in fact killed by a big enough energy discharge I do not see why Norrin couldn't replicate that either.

You opinion is understandable but I disagree.

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TheGrayGhost

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There's a ....lot of speculation in this thread, from counting crossovers as canon to using feats where Henshaw specifically can't break free and is ripped to pieces by a black hole as far as his durability goes , with respect to someone who literally fights unaffected inside black holes.

I mean, yes he survived, but then he survived galaxy busting too, is his durability galactic scale then? Of course not. Dude just can't be killed, doesn't mean he can't be crushed into scrap metal long enough to count as a KO , as the number of times (weaker versions of ) Supes beating him show, or indeed the black hole in question

Then we have people handwaving " energy drain" as an auto win for Henshaw, nevermind almost every instance of surfer getting drained involved either his consent , or unique powersets ( Dynamo city for eg)

And while various other flaws exist in the arguments against surfer, just the quote @TheTrueBarryAllen

"......but there's absolutely nothing to support who would perform their winning move first "

This at the very basic level, the easiest way for surfer to win

The Cyborg, when carried to the sun by Superman Red at " VERY NEAR lightspeed" responded with " What? Where?...I quit!!"

The surfer, to use just one example , fought Deathurge at FTL speeds

So its clear who is going to use their so called "winning move" first

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thegrayghost: @claymore1998: I'm responding to both of you as my final response in this thread, I'm absolutely sick of Surfer vs Cyborg Superman debates due to all the speculation that surrounds them, and I wasn't trying to debate the topic in the first place - only provide an answer to a question asked by a user a month ago who hadn't been given any information.

Clay, you bring up many of Norrin's abilities, and you're clearly knowledgeable on the character and I'm glad you came in here to share your knowledge; but I honestly think you're forgetting Surfer's morals.

While Surfer can manipulate molecules on an incredibly impressive level, or bring the fight to the astral plane, it's a matter of how often he'll do these things & what his character generally is WHEN he's doing these things. I'm going to use a quote found in another Surfer debate to sum up my feelings on the matter:

That being said, unless otherwise stated, we assume the fight is with morals on and in character. surfer neither uses molecular manipulation, nor most of his exotic powers in charater and as such is a passive, calm, level headed guy, while Cyborg is generally ruthless. Its the character flaw that i believe would probably give Cyborg Superman the victory.

Sorry to bring him up again, but it's a quote from Killemall, a debater whose opinion I respect & who has well earned his place in the Debaters HOF. I see no reason why this argument doesn't stand, and given his Surfer expertise to be akin to your own, Clay, I see nothing new that you've brought to the table in the age old debate.

A better way to debate is to forget what consensus you reached with the aforementioned user and try debating me.

If this debate was any different than the ones I've had on the topic or if you were bringing new elements to the debate I'd be inclined to agree with this statement; however, as I've stated multiple times I've gone against this very argument before, and reached a different consensus, I'm tired of the same debate countless times.

You opinion is understandable but I disagree.

As do I disagree with your opinion; something I tried to make clear early on in my attempts to avoid the Surfer vs Cyborg Superman debate.

Now to respond to Grey Ghost:

I mean, yes he survived, but then he survived galaxy busting too, is his durability galactic scale then? Of course not. Dude just can't be killed, doesn't mean he can't be crushed into scrap metal long enough to count as a KO , as the number of times (weaker versions of ) Supes beating him show, or indeed the black hole in question

Henshaw was sucked through a black hole in much earlier stories; if we look at more modern stories such as The Sinestro Corps War we see him taking on multiple veteran lanterns simultaneously, fighting Guardians of the GLC, and I'm fairly sure he beat Superman in an H2H brawl within 4 or 5 hits, granted he had some Yellow Power Rings for that last one.

This is why I mentioned that it appears as if Henshaw has received an upgrade in later years; he's become more proficient with his powers, has been displaying higher feats of technopathy, durability, and speed - so while he wasn't bestowed an upgrade, the writing & feats demonstrates that he's become a much larger threat.

So its clear who is going to use their so called "winning move" first

No, it's truthfully not. While Surfer might have a slight speed advantage it's nowhere near massive enough to change the tide in such a dramatic manor. The true test of "who wins first" here comes from how quickly Surfer would go against his morals in a fight with a foe he knows nothing about while Henshaw knows that Surfer is an energy using being due to their earlier confrontation. Even if the Surfer that Henshaw fought in that crossover; which is cannon for Henshaw but not Surfer, was an alternate Surfer - he still bears the same appearance & general abilities as the one Henshaw is going against in this fight.

Given the conditions I feel as if it would be more likely for Henshaw to go for the finishing move than Surfer would, because Henshaw knows what he's up against.

Anyways - we can all just agree to disagree, go on with our days, and enjoy the rest of our time spent on the Vine. I'm just done with this debate, it's as unending as Superman vs Thor or and of those Blue Marvel threads.

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Claymore1998

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@thetruebarryallen:

Well I suppose the only consensus we can reach is agreeing to disagree then.

^_^

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TheTrueBarryAllen

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@thetruebarryallen:

Well I suppose the only consensus we can reach is agreeing to disagree then.

^_^

Sometimes that's the best consensus hahaha

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Sy8000

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@claymore1998: I haven't had time to get to this and I won't have my computer for a while so I'll simply state durability feats for Superman and provide scans later if you need them.

1. Tanking energy blasts from a bloodlusted Kyle Rayner from a period where he was tapping into the Ion power relatively unharmed, and Kyles a planet buster without any amps.

2. Tanking a backhand from the fortress eradicator, someone powerful enough to pin down and overpower Majestic(which would in turn make him much stronger than people like Thanos or Hulk who have both punched out Silver Surfer)

3. Getting beaten around by Mongul and Bizzaro and then getting punched into orbit by the latter of the two but shrugging off their strikes and beating them both.

3. Tanking a hit from hawkman with the claw of Horus, which essentially had the force of a planet behind it.

4. Wonder Woman failing to down him with her blows and admitting she'd be unable to during Sacrifice.

5. Tanking a moon decking punch from Etrigan.

That'll do for now. I acknowledge to Norrins high end showings like waltzing through Supernovas are better but we've discussed that and we agree those are all high end feats. Supermans also tanked Omega beams and energy with 50 times the force of a supernova, but we all know those things would logically vaporize him. Same goes for Norrins feats.

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Claymore1998

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#85  Edited By Claymore1998

@highaccuser:

Interesting feat but Silver Surfer likewise has feat that matches and even exceeds that.

1. Tanking energy blasts from a bloodlusted Kyle Rayner from a period where he was tapping into the Ion power relatively unharmed, and Kyles a planet buster without any amps.

In response we have Norrin taking attacks from Michael Korvac who even turned him into the core of a planet. Korvac himself was so powerful than he was able to shake every dimension in his fight with Starhawk, as well as kill an elder of the universe with a simple energy blast.

2. Tanking a backhand from the fortress eradicator, someone powerful enough to pin down and overpower Majestic(which would in turn make him much stronger than people like Thanos or Hulk who have both punched out Silver Surfer)

Silver Surfer likewise has taken entire supernova blowing up right next to him without so much as flinching. In fact it has been clearly mentioned has Superman not outraced the supernova he faced he would have died.

Hulk was only able to punch Silver Surfer out, temporarily, because he was weakened.

3. Getting beaten around by Mongul and Bizzaro and then getting punched into orbit by the latter of the two but shrugging off their strikes and beating them both.

Interesting, in reponse Norrin took on Murringo Mu head on for an entire battle with 1/2 his power. Its also the same person who had gone around blowing up planet and had defeated every single hero on earth with absolute ease.

3. Tanking a hit from hawkman with the claw of Horus, which essentially had the force of a planet behind it.

Impressive, though essentially having a force of a planet is no bigger. Silver Surfer on the other hand took hits from Mangog who himself toys with planet busters like Thor.

4. Wonder Woman failing to down him with her blows and admitting she'd be unable to during Sacrifice.

Wonder Woman actually got the better of Superman in that fight though, and besides it's not something different from what Norrin has done against say Thor in recent time, against Drax the Destroyer just before Infinity Gauntlet story arc etc.

5. Tanking a moon decking punch from Etrigan.

That's not even a high end feat really.

That'll do for now. I acknowledge to Norrins high end showings like waltzing through Supernovas are better but we've discussed that and we agree those are all high end feats. Supermans also tanked Omega beams and energy with 50 times the force of a supernova, but we all know those things would logically vaporize him. Same goes for Norrins feats.

I disagree, also your 50 times Supernova feat is misrepresented. Superman outran the blast and it was mentioned again and again that he would have been killed had he been hit merely by the radiation from it and even then he was saved by his father and he collapses.

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I don't agree Superman is more durable than Surfer, though i will wait to see if you can somehow convince me otherwise.

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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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@claymore1998: Also supes Survived A Blast that Destroyed 10 Star system's , Survived Source wall Explosion , Survived a Blast from 2 Nigh Omnipotent being's , Survived The Sun eater wich u already Posted the scan :p

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Claymore1998

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@thebestofthebest: Surfer still has comparable if not better feats though. Silver surfer not only survive but shielded moon dragon from the explosion of great one, a being that held thousands of entire planets inside him. He also survived long enough to use the crunch to defeat 2 galactus level beings. He has fought the Stranger for nearly a whole issue.

Superman might have impressive feats but I am not really convinced why his durability feats are somehow seen better than Norrin. Perhaps you could convince me otherwise.

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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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@claymore1998: i may post Some scan's :p i Ma Self put it as Tie :

Survives the Source Wall Explosion

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Survive 2 Nigh Omnipotent Being's Blast (Soulfire Darkseid Vs The Source , (Thought Darkseid was Owning The SW)

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Survive A Blast From Void Hound that Destroyed 10 Star system's :

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Here is Void Hunde Blast Destroy's 10 Star System's

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Claymore1998

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@thebestofthebest: he was knocked out in all three examples. How is that pertinent to battle?

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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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#90  Edited By ThEBeStOfTheBeST

@claymore1998: Man Surviving a Blast From 2 Nigh Omnipotent , Superman shouldn't realy survive that But he Did or Surviving a Vertiual Omnipotent Source wall Explosion and About 10 Star system's he was Hited More Than Once .. I Don't get your point man , Like you're saying That's Not impressive ? Yes Surfer Did survive a Hit From those Two Galactus class being (The proemial Gods , Angis and Tenebrous) But If Not Galactus Surfer would've been dead .

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Claymore1998

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@thebestofthebest: I think you misunderstand. Had superman remained conscious that would have been a great feat, he wasn't and hence the feat don't seem applicable in a battle where being KO, like he was in the instances mentioned would be enough to declare a loss against his name.

Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock also got to see Thanos with Infinity Gauntlet fight the abstract and Eternity without being knocked out.

I referred to the feat with primordial god because Surfers fights them long enough for him to channel the power of the crunch and defeat them. Him surviving their attacks without even being KO seems more applicable and impressive to me. He was only KO, in fact nearly killed, after manipulating the crunch and defeating the two beings.

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Kingant27

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Silver Surfer wins, in a very good fight.

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Darkmore098

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Silver Surfer if he's out for blood

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ShaoKahn

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Cyborg superman easily . He is not losing to someone who got one shotted by the Hulk

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/132594/3856467-7098731429-16689.jpg

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ancient_god

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#96  Edited By ancient_god

Silver Surfer

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mysticmedivh

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Surfer.

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KevinConnor

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#98  Edited By KevinConnor

@thebestofthebest: Surfer still has comparable if not better feats though. Silver surfer not only survive but shielded moon dragon from the explosion of great one, a being that held thousands of entire planets inside him. He also survived long enough to use the crunch to defeat 2 galactus level beings. He has fought the Stranger for nearly a whole issue.

Superman might have impressive feats but I am not really convinced why his durability feats are somehow seen better than Norrin. Perhaps you could convince me otherwise.

Scan?

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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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#99  Edited By ThEBeStOfTheBeST

@kevinconnor said:
@claymore1998 said:

@thebestofthebest: Surfer still has comparable if not better feats though. Silver surfer not only survive but shielded moon dragon from the explosion of great one, a being that held thousands of entire planets inside him. He also survived long enough to use the crunch to defeat 2 galactus level beings. He has fought the Stranger for nearly a whole issue.

Superman might have impressive feats but I am not really convinced why his durability feats are somehow seen better than Norrin. Perhaps you could convince me otherwise.

Scan?

Somehow I didn't get this reply from @claymore1998 ... anyway i agree with clay but there's something's wrong with Surfer i mean he has been nerfed really bad by the plot in a degree that Thor can Beat 'im up without to much Trouble.

Excluding the PIS-Low end-based feat's for surfer, His durability is lil superior compared to supes durability but i really can convince you otherwise however starting with Surfer Best durability feat's I've seen so far which happened during the Infinity Gauntlet Saga:

He survived the shock-waves and a bit of the explosion caused by the clash between Thanos with infinity gauntlet and a group of cosmic entities that consist of:

-Master order & Lord chaos

-Mistress Love & Master Hate

-Mistress Death

-Galactus & Stranger

-One Above all Celestial

-Arichem the judge "Celestial"

-Kronos God of Time

[CLICK HERE]

However the clash between those entities "Nearly collapsed of the entire spectrum of reality and the universe"

Here is a quite good definition of the spectrum of reality:

http://www.cosmicparadigm.com/cosmic-paradigm/spectrum-of-reality/ (I'll Let the link speak for him self)

Regardless the shock-waves of the celestial clash annihilated Multiple solar system's as a side effect and you even notice The watcher stating:

"The powers unsealed in the initial clash are beyond the power of words to describe" (3rd scan)

[CLICK HERE]

[CLICK HERE]

[CLICK HERE]

[CLICK HERE]

And yet Surfer wasn't K.O'ed at all he wasn't even injured therefore apparently Norrin radd durability is beyond solar system level to Massively Multi solar systems level and up at Base.

Conclusion:

Surfer durability: Surpass and trump's Solar system level easily.

Remember excluding the jobbing moment's [Surfer at his finest in other meaning]

He also survived long enough to use the crunch to defeat 2 galactus level beings. He has fought the Stranger for nearly a whole issue.

But Clay, Don't you thinks that's plot ? i mean Defeating Two Galactus-Level being's is an impressive feat indeed am not denying that at all, Unfortunately that's a PIS feat if you ask me, anyway if we rely and count on PIS feat - superman should be able to trump's Surfer PIS-Based feat's, my legit reason's:

1. Superman defeating Lord Dominus Who's Multiversal being a being that trump's and dwarf even Kismet "DC's Eternity's equal" who's the The Embodiment of the DC universe.

2. Defeating Emperor Joker who had literally 99% of Mxy Power's.

3. Damaging Phantom strange with his punches twice [Made him bleed] and going through him easily a being "Divine magic user" that almost destroyed the creation during his encounter with Spectre ~So says the presence

Em, yeah that's it :P

Anyway on the other hand superman durability feat's are actually on par with surfer if you want me to show some scans .. thou excluding low end feats too - such as superman surviving The collision of New Genesis and Apokolipse both planet's were stated to dwarf Galaxies [Post Crisis] yet superman survived the collapse without even getting K.O'ed that currently puts superman durability at Solar system level and up [To counter Surfer feat] however I'd put 'im at Multi planetary level [I hope you won't lowball the feat].

VITAL NOTE: I may not reply to soon due to some stuff i have to work on (Study.. sport.. all those stuff) so i may take a couple days to reply back.

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MaZeRaIII

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Current SS wins.

He has done this :

Current SS has the power of the Shaper of the Worlds and has created a UNIVERSE, resurrected and killed Galactus:

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