Shuma-Gorath vs Set and Chthon

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mr-luxcipher

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#1  Edited By mr-luxcipher
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WollfMyth209

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Shuma.

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Six-Deuce

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Shuma is less powerful than either of the elder gods. May be able to drain Set as this is the only way he has been susceptible to anything. Chthon is simply too powerful AND clever.

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HeirToTheKingdom

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Shuma-Gorath.

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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Shuma is too powerful for them. Cthon is supposedly uber-powerful but lacks any solid feats

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ginman333

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Gonna have to go Shuma and I dont believe its all that close.

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XxdeathmakerxX

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@decaf_wizard: chthon is an elder god not that great on the cosmic scale

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@decaf_wizard: chthon is an elder god not that great on the cosmic scale

Elder Gods have constantly been portrayed above Skyfathers

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XxdeathmakerxX

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@decaf_wizard: but below cosmic cubes and and beings above that lvl which includes many beings

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KingKarate

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Shuma rapes

It is against the battle forum rules to say the second word you just said.

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KingKarate

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Shuma is less powerful than either of the elder gods. May be able to drain Set as this is the only way he has been susceptible to anything. Chthon is simply too powerful AND clever.

Why?

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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The idea that Shuma is less powerful than Set is patently absurd. Shuma has shown to be more powerful than Dormammu by at least a decent margin which is a level that no Elder God is simply on. Even Gaia was unable to beat Dormammu by herself.

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Spambot

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#14  Edited By Spambot

@decaf_wizard: I think some would argue that some of the Vishanti are well above Dormammu. Gaia isn't really a heavy hitter among elder gods.

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@spambot said:

@decaf_wizard: I think some would argue that some of the Vishanti are well above Dormammu. Gaia isn't really a heavy hitter among elder gods.

The Vishanti are a group and only one of them is an Elder God. Agamotto is by himself more powerful than Dormammu but he is the only member of the group to have been displayed as such.

Why do you say Gaia isn't a heavy hitter?

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Spambot

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@decaf_wizard: Because she doesn't have any feats that would make me put her in that category(that I know of).

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@spambot said:

@decaf_wizard: Because she doesn't have any feats that would make me put her in that category(that I know of).

Have you not read Chaos War? Her powers were what turned Hercules into Chaos War Herc.

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Spambot

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@spambot said:

@decaf_wizard: Because she doesn't have any feats that would make me put her in that category(that I know of).

Have you not read Chaos War? Her powers were what turned Hercules into Chaos War Herc.

I don't agree that it was her power that did so. I think she gave him the knowledge and he was more responsible for his rebirth the way it was written.

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@spambot said:
@decaf_wizard said:
@spambot said:

@decaf_wizard: Because she doesn't have any feats that would make me put her in that category(that I know of).

Have you not read Chaos War? Her powers were what turned Hercules into Chaos War Herc.

I don't agree that it was her power that did so. I think she gave him the knowledge and he was more responsible for his rebirth the way it was written.

Well I mean I think it was pretty clear it was her power that allowed him to do so. I guess its interpretation. Besides, do you honestly think Herc can just ascend to be as powerful as he was without some kind of amp?

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Spambot

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@decaf_wizard: It was a plot device. Its the whole knowledge = power deal and being reborn thing. It was horrible writing all along though so it doesn't surprise me that it ended the way it did either.

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cosmic_reign

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boschePG

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@spambot said:

@decaf_wizard: I think some would argue that some of the Vishanti are well above Dormammu. Gaia isn't really a heavy hitter among elder gods.

The Vishanti are a group and only one of them is an Elder God. Agamotto is by himself more powerful than Dormammu but he is the only member of the group to have been displayed as such.

Why do you say Gaia isn't a heavy hitter?

you also have to remember that Gaia is the mother of Atum the God Eater. She basically is Oshtur's sister before she departed into the cosmos. By the mere fact that they are 1st generation Elders (Gaiea, Oshtur, Chthon, and Set) pretty much tells you that she has power. Her bestowing of power on people are pretty amped and the focused energy power of everyone that was slaughtered by the first massacre became Hell Lords.

I don't remember the tear of Oshtur (Agamotto) being more powerful than Dormammu. What plane did this battle take place? I guess Agamotto could be since Atum sent Chthon and Set running in the massacre.

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deactivated-60fae469e992f

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@boschepg said:
@decaf_wizard said:
@spambot said:

@decaf_wizard: I think some would argue that some of the Vishanti are well above Dormammu. Gaia isn't really a heavy hitter among elder gods.

The Vishanti are a group and only one of them is an Elder God. Agamotto is by himself more powerful than Dormammu but he is the only member of the group to have been displayed as such.

Why do you say Gaia isn't a heavy hitter?

you also have to remember that Gaia is the mother of Atum the God Eater. She basically is Oshtur's sister before she departed into the cosmos. By the mere fact that they are 1st generation Elders (Gaiea, Oshtur, Chthon, and Set) pretty much tells you that she has power. Her bestowing of power on people are pretty amped and the focused energy power of everyone that was slaughtered by the first massacre became Hell Lords.

I don't remember the tear of Oshtur (Agamotto) being more powerful than Dormammu. What plane did this battle take place? I guess Agamotto could be since Atum sent Chthon and Set running in the massacre.

It was both implied and stated multiple times that Dormammu has been beaten by Agamotto when he was the first Sorcerer supreme. The battle/battles have never been shown on panel though. Im also rather sure its been hinted is he stronger than the other two Vishanti combined although I may be wrong about that

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boschePG

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@boschepg said:
@decaf_wizard said:
@spambot said:

@decaf_wizard: I think some would argue that some of the Vishanti are well above Dormammu. Gaia isn't really a heavy hitter among elder gods.

The Vishanti are a group and only one of them is an Elder God. Agamotto is by himself more powerful than Dormammu but he is the only member of the group to have been displayed as such.

Why do you say Gaia isn't a heavy hitter?

you also have to remember that Gaia is the mother of Atum the God Eater. She basically is Oshtur's sister before she departed into the cosmos. By the mere fact that they are 1st generation Elders (Gaiea, Oshtur, Chthon, and Set) pretty much tells you that she has power. Her bestowing of power on people are pretty amped and the focused energy power of everyone that was slaughtered by the first massacre becam Hell Lords.

I don't remember the tear of Oshtur (Agamotto) being more powerful than Dormammu. What plane did this battle take place? I guess Agamotto could be since Atum sent Chthon and Set running in the massacre.

It was both implied and stated multiple times that Dormammu has been beaten by Agamotto when he was the first Sorcerer supreme. The battle/battles have never been shown on panel though. Im also rather sure its been hinted is he stronger than the other two Vishanti combined although I may be wrong about that

ohh...the line of succession of SS. I thought it was a battle I missed

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SirFizzWhizz

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Cthon is responsible for the Darkhold. One of the strongest magical artifacts in all of Marvel lore. Responsible for the various powerful Vampires like Lilith, Dracula, and Varnae. He is responsible for werewolves. This guy is responsible for House of M empowering Scarlet Witch. Nuff said.

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XxdeathmakerxX

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@sirfizzwhizz: IIRC HoM Wanda was using the life force which is beyond chthons paygrade she was later retconned To become a chaos mage(chthons power) her reality warping is beyond chthon

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destinyman75

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#27  Edited By destinyman75

As powerful as the other two are there is a reason dormammu fears Shuma gorath. Even sise neg amped with all the magical power of another universe could only banish him, and the vishanti tremble at the mention of his name, Shuma is really on another level

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#28  Edited By jrupert1

@cosmic_reign said:

Maybe elder gods...

@jrupert1

Eh, Set doesn't have too much going for him (I remember a while back there was quite a lot of hype around him but it was basically unfounded and then forgotten) and Chthon mostly has hype as well, he has some good feats attached to him but it's mostly overblown, an indirect affect/contextual, and ambiguous, not to be dismissive as it is quite impressive but nothing really beyond what has been shown capable by the standard principality.

It's really hard to compare one of the Great Old Ones to the other Elder Gods as there's nothing direct to go by. But by association from other things... Oshtur alone is for all extents and purposes the equal of Chthon (through implications) and in effect the only Elder God known to have transcended their previous existence. While as the Vishanti, which includes one of the great old ones (Hoggoth), an elder god, and whatever Agamotto is (he's some unknown creation by Oshtur and likely Hoggoth who became something greater than he once was and was able to join them to form the Vishanti) and creates a force greater than the sum of its parts... they battled against Shuma-Gorath. The "when" and the result is unknown but no party was effectively defeated, Shuma-Gorath chronologically still (unchallenged) ruled earth til Sise-Neg. The Vishanti are the greatest benevolent mystic force in Marvel where as Englehart introduced Shuma-Gorath to be the greatest malevolent force (even with Aaron's recent meddling with Strange's lore the scale of what is basically two sides of the same coin hasn't been destroyed). There are a few things peppered throughout Dr Strange's lore that suggest to the differences of their levels (such as what it took for Strange to even get to each respective enemy during the times he stood against them). Plus there's the whole ordeal with the Many-Angled Ones, nothing about them has given ample examples to believe they could have pulled off as much.

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@sirfizzwhizz: IIRC HoM Wanda was using the life force which is beyond chthons paygrade she was later retconned To become a chaos mage(chthons power) her reality warping is beyond chthon

It was stated her power was due to Chthon. I do dnot know if this was post or pre retcons, I just know their is a scan of it stating as only through Chthon was Wanda able to pull it off.

Considering Aggamotto who is the child of an Elder god can pawn Dormammu, I dont see it as a stretch. Even Dr Strange stated under his power he could fix the multiverse of the HOM effects but chose not too, for reasons. Dont see it above Chthon paygrade.

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#30  Edited By XxdeathmakerxX

@sirfizzwhizz: She lost Her chaos magic aka chthons power after she used the life force although she channeled his energy in the chaos wave

Dormy nowadays is a huge jobber and most of his high end feats have context he is well above the hell lords but below the elder gods(high skyfather) he only harmed eternity through a shift in cosmic energy that horribly amped him so he should very easily lose To an elder god

I think that HoM gets overrated i mean she didnt come close To omniversal destruction and sur cant reality warp anyone and IIRC some parts of the multiverse mainly alternate universes were not affected and the fact that strange knows he can fix her effects (Btw he chose not To due to the risk of messing up and causing more harm than good) spells below multiversal lvl

The life force contains much more than chthons magic so its propably above chthons power To a degrer

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cosmic_reign

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boschePG

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@sirfizzwhizz:Chthon just has more ways to enter the 616 realm. Set is like Cytorrak where his avatar (Serpent Crown) gives power but not actually helps Set enter 616. Its probably cuz Set's dimension is farther than Chthon's dimension. Chthon's dimension, If I remember right, is actually a pocket next to 616 in between 616 and the atral realm

@jrupert1 said:
@cosmic_reign said:

Maybe elder gods...

@jrupert1

Eh, Set doesn't have too much going for him (I remember a while back there was quite a lot of hype around him but it was basically unfounded and then forgotten) and Chthon mostly has hype as well, he has some good feats attached to him but it's mostly overblown, an indirect affect/contextual, and ambiguous, not to be dismissive as it is quite impressive but nothing really beyond what has been shown capable by the standard principality.

one page of the Darkhold created a reality altering wave across the planet. How is that hype. He actually warped the entire planet.

Also, Agamotto came from a tear from Oshtur when Oshtur went cosmos and met Hoggoth. Agamotto transcended and left the Eye and Orb of Agamotto and then Atum killed everyone except Set and Chthon who left into other dimensions.

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@boschepg said:

@sirfizzwhizz:Chthon just has more ways to enter the 616 realm. Set is like Cytorrak where his avatar (Serpent Crown) gives power but not actually helps Set enter 616. Its probably cuz Set's dimension is farther than Chthon's dimension. Chthon's dimension, If I remember right, is actually a pocket next to 616 in between 616 and the atral realm

Another huge factor for me is also when Shuma and Chthon both entered 616 world. When Shuma enters the world, he been push back by Strange, F4, and other "meh" circumstances. When Chthon entered the world through Scarlet Witch or Quicksilver, it was world ending events that required many on hands heroes to deal with. So in that sense too, Chthon impresses me more.

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XxdeathmakerxX

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@sirfizzwhizz: HoM was universal so propably chthon is on that lvl too

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SirFizzWhizz

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@sirfizzwhizz: HoM was universal so propably chthon is on that lvl too

I dont know about Universal, but definitely on the same level as say Galactus level beings. Chthon is the source of ALL black magic in 616.

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@sirfizzwhizz: the chaos wave was already existent out of the multiverse she just messed with reality which made the chaos wave enter the Multiverse

TLDR it was never her power

As for chthon what if a demon killer such as Daimon or GR fought him?

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SirFizzWhizz

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@sirfizzwhizz: the chaos wave was already existent out of the multiverse she just messed with reality which made the chaos wave enter the Multiverse

TLDR it was never her power

As for chthon what if a demon killer such as Daimon or GR fought him?

They get stomped. Hard. Daimon nor GR can compete at all with Dormammu outside his realm. Much less a being easily on par with Dormammu in his realm.

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jrupert1

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@boschepg: I didn't say he's only hype (I even specifically made note of this) but a lot of him is. And him being over-hyped does not mean he is not very powerful. As for altering reality over a planet, well yeah the montesi formula (as I imagine it's what you're referring to) was a spell in the book but it's not really unique for things like that. A lot of spells are powerful and operate on that level if it can be properly cast. It's also worth noting that Strange unknowingly managed to protect his brother from that spell simply because he used a minor stasis spell on him earlier.

As for Agamotto, I wouldn't exactly go with using that as a definitive answer because none regarding his exact means of creation has been given, that's simply a legend. It could be true but all that is known for a fact is he was created by Oshtur (suggested to be some point after finding Hoggoth) as a mortal sorcerer who became the first Sorcerer Supreme.

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boschePG

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@jrupert1 said:

@boschepg: I didn't say he's only hype (I even specifically made note of this) but a lot of him is. And him being over-hyped does not mean he is not very powerful. As for altering reality over a planet, well yeah the montesi formula (as I imagine it's what you're referring to) was a spell in the book but it's not really unique for things like that. A lot of spells are powerful and operate on that level if it can be properly cast. It's also worth noting that Strange unknowingly managed to protect his brother from that spell simply because he used a minor stasis spell on him earlier.

As for Agamotto, I wouldn't exactly go with using that as a definitive answer because none regarding his exact means of creation has been given, that's simply a legend. It could be true but all that is known for a fact is he was created by Oshtur (suggested to be some point after finding Hoggoth) as a mortal sorcerer who became the first Sorcerer Supreme.

I knew the legend from Marvel's Mystic Arcana series. By chance, do you happen to have scans of the dimensional maps on the inside of the cover within Mystic Arcana?

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Six-Deuce

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A fraction of Chthon's power shifted all future realities of the multiverse. Dormammu invokes the "great Chthon" when casting spells. His presence alone was tearing away the fabric of 616. He is top tier....Shuma may be able to win by feeding on his power, but Chthon is definitely more powerful. Got my info mostly from scans provided by lord_oraculous016 (subject matter expert) on old battles like this. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/chthon-vs-cyttorak-401069/?page=3

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#42  Edited By dami24434

chthon solos and wins , he's more consistent. shuma gorath honestly is becoming a jobber .

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LukaDoncicmvp

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Shuma has been rebranded as elder god. Guess Chthon & Set win.