Shonen Jump War: Gotei 13 vs Spriggan 12 vs Ten Commandments vs Akatsuki vs Admirals + Yonkou

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REQUIEMCROSS

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The Gotei 13 will become white zetsu at the end of this fight. They have no resistance against infinite tsukuyomi from Juubito.

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Omnihater

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Still open?

Admirals and yonko hardstomp

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UltimateSage

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OP team is the 2nd least likely to even win lmao

OT: Akatsuki stomp. Juubito puts up a barrier around the team while Itachi Genjutsues fodder Deidara and makes him use C0 on everyone else

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REQUIEMCROSS

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#154  Edited By REQUIEMCROSS

@ultimatesage said:

OP team is the 2nd least likely to even win lmao

OT: Akatsuki stomp. Juubito puts up a barrier around the team while Itachi Genjutsues fodder Deidara and makes him use C0 on everyone else

Obito could also plant a tree with 4 juubidama

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UltimateSage

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@ultimatesage said:

OP team is the 2nd least likely to even win lmao

OT: Akatsuki stomp. Juubito puts up a barrier around the team while Itachi Genjutsues fodder Deidara and makes him use C0 on everyone else

Obito could also plant a three with 4 juubidama

what kinda plant is a "three"???

.........jk, you probably meant tree lol

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REQUIEMCROSS

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@requiemcross said:
@ultimatesage said:

OP team is the 2nd least likely to even win lmao

OT: Akatsuki stomp. Juubito puts up a barrier around the team while Itachi Genjutsues fodder Deidara and makes him use C0 on everyone else

Obito could also plant a three with 4 juubidama

what kinda plant is a "three"???

.........jk, you probably meant tree lol

yeah, a mis type haha... sorry.

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AlexTheBoss

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@leothegreatest:

You‘re claiming that featless dragons power wise with no statements to their power whatsoever are not only stronger but (massively) stronger than a Dragon with an on Panel Multi-Mountaim level feat.

No, I'm claiming they don't scale to each other just because they are dragons. And can I see this multi mountain level feat? It has no baring on this debate, I would just like to see it for future reference, because I don't remember any mulit mountain level feats until the celestial king fight and god of war fight, besides Acno's island level feat before that.

Yet i’m the one that’s making things up?

Yes, because you are saying they scale with no proof. Lets say I did make something up, that doesn't change that you did as well.

By the time Ichigo noticed they were gone Starkk had already brought her to Aizen and Aizen saying ”Welcome back” was the first thing she perceived.

I'm looking at the scene and there is no indication Starrk made it back to Aizen before Ichigo realized he was gone.

As for Orihime she was probably completely in shock and just had her body moved way faster than it's supposed to.

And Ichigo deflecting all of Senbon Zakura Kageyoshi was a MHS feat.

Eh, that feat is hard to calc due to the wind pressure his sword sings give off.

The difference between automatic and manual is that we know how much power he’s putting into the manual one but regardless this doesn’t matter that much.

But we have no idea how strong he could have made the shield with prep.

Shunsui also fought a serious Yamma alongside Ukitake. That ends this argument.

Ok? And Ichigo was able to make Aizen bleed. There is no reason he wouldn't be at least close to those two with his mask activated.

Are you telling me he loses his durability when his hair is frozen?

Don't give me that crap, he literally crumbled apart.

No Caption Provided

You know the parts with ice on him aren't the only parts that are frozen right? You also know when a human body is frozen it doesn't turn into the color of ice right?

This Gerard was more than a dozen times stronger than Shikai Kenpachi he wouldn’t be able to do anything to Gerard mobile or otherwise.

Where are you getting he is more than a dozen times stronger than shikai Kenpachi from?

Are you kidding me?

I should be asking that of you. Blocking a single palm strike from someone doesn't prove that character can fight on par with them. It just means that characters defense was strong enough to hold up against that particular attack. We have no idea how much force Gerard even put into that attack.

I'm sure if I wanted to waist my time, I could look for dozens of examples where a character managed to block one attack, but then proceeded to get wrecked. Unless you can show me Byakuya consistently fighting on par with V3 Gerard with no help, your argument doesn't hold up.

It can be said Kenpachi was nocked back too since his blade went back to the side he swung it from a two handed exchange

But he is way smaller, so he should need more strength to match his blow and not be sent back.

Why wouldn’t they scale to Dragons that PTS Natsu can match in speed?

Not the same dragons, and the spriggans don't have wings that allow them to fly long distances extremely quickly like dragons. Irene in her dragon form is the only one that scales, and like I said, it's travel speed. It could arguably be applied to reaction speed as well, but not consistent combat speed bursting around everywhere like DBZ characters.

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LeoTheGreatest

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#158  Edited By LeoTheGreatest  Online

@alextheboss:

No, I'm claiming they don't scale to each other just because they are dragons.

I'm generously letting them scale to a Dragon with actual feats.

And can I see this multi mountain level feat? It has no baring on this debate, I would just like to see it for future reference, because I don't remember any mulit mountain level feats until the celestial king fight and god of war fight, besides Acno's island level feat before that.

No Caption Provided

Yes, because you are saying they scale with no proof. Lets say I did make something up, that doesn't change that you did as well.

You scaled them to one of the most powerful Dragons with 0 evidence while I generously scaled them to a decently powerful Dragon.

I'm looking at the scene and there is no indication Starrk made it back to Aizen before Ichigo realized he was goneAs for Orihime she was probably completely in shock and just had her body moved way faster than it's supposed to.

It really couldn't be anymore clearer unless the screen and manga panels were split and that's not reasonable at all nor is Orihime was in shock due to the speed she was shocked at going from being with Ichigo to being in front of Aizen in an instant.

Eh, that feat is hard to calc due to the wind pressure his sword sings give off.

The Blades had at the very least city level power wind pressure isn't a factor and even if it was it wouldn't change anything there were 100,000,000 blades.

But we have no idea how strong he could have made the shield with prep.

Right.

Ok? And Ichigo was able to make Aizen bleed. There is no reason he wouldn't be at least close to those two with his mask activated.

He did that during Aizens one vulnerable moment after tanking a hado 96 from Yamamoto himself then proceeded to get his Getsuga casually slapped away.

Don't give me that crap, he literally crumbled apart. You know the parts with ice on him aren't the only parts that are frozen right? You also know when a human body is frozen it doesn't turn into the color of ice right?

Gerard was able to resist the freezing properties temporarily so the only part of his body that we know was definitively frozen at the time was his hair so again are you going to say that he loses his durability when his hairs frozen?

Where are you getting he is more than a dozen times stronger than shikai Kenpachi from?

The Miracle brought him back and he used his Vollstandig on top of that.

I should be asking that of you. Blocking a single palm strike from someone doesn't prove that character can fight on par with them. It just means that characters defense was strong enough to hold up against that particular attack. We have no idea how much force Gerard even put into that attack.

I'm sure if I wanted to waist my time, I could look for dozens of examples where a character managed to block one attack, but then proceeded to get wrecked. Unless you can show me Byakuya consistently fighting on par with V3 Gerard with no help, your argument doesn't hold up.

I refuse to believe you're being genuine here with this downplaying attempt. It was a serious attack and Byakuya blocked it completely while telling Rukia and Renji they were useless. He then proceeded to hold his own against V3 Gerard until Yhwach's Auswhalen.

But he is way smaller, so he should need more strength to match his blow and not be sent back.

That isn't a factor for characters this powerful.

Not the same dragons, and the spriggans don't have wings that allow them to fly long distances extremely quickly like dragons. Irene in her dragon form is the only one that scales, and like I said, it's travel speed. It could arguably be applied to reaction speed as well, but not consistent combat speed bursting around everywhere like DBZ characters.

Dragons have been matched by characters without wing throughout the entire story... and again PTS Natsu defeated one that's more powerful than them via feats.

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AlexTheBoss

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@leothegreatest:

I'm generously letting them scale to a Dragon with actual feats.

No, we are talking about speed here, not destructive power. DC feats from those dragons are irrelevant.

You scaled them to one of the most powerful Dragons with 0 evidence while I generously scaled them to a decently powerful Dragon.

I'm not trying to scale them with DC though. If we were talking about that I could agree, but you can't just randomly give all dragons their speed feat. I'm not even saying you are wrong, I'm just saying there is nothing to confirm it.

It really couldn't be anymore clearer unless the screen and manga panels were split and that's not reasonable

Or they could have just had the manga panel with Starrk reaching Aizen be shown first?

at all nor is Orihime was in shock due to the speed she was shocked at going from being with Ichigo to being in front of Aizen in an instant.

Yes, but those high speeds could have easily disoriented her for the time she was moving, and her reaction speed should be lower than Ichigo's anyways.

The Blades had at the very least city level power wind pressure isn't a factor and even if it was it wouldn't change anything there were 100,000,000 blades.

Are you saying each blade had city level power? That is far from the truth. All of them together would at best have small city level power, and that's being very generous.

He did that during Aizens one vulnerable moment after tanking a hado 96 from Yamamoto himself then proceeded to get his Getsuga casually slapped away.

Even still, Ichigo should be somewhat close to them. I agree Starrk is probably stronger, but not by a crazy amount. Ichigo should at least be around R1 Ulquiorra at that point.

Gerard was able to resist the freezing properties temporarily so the only part of his body that we know was definitively frozen at the time was his hair so again are you going to say that he loses his durability when his hairs frozen?

You really think all that move did was freeze his hair? Is that why his body stopped moving? It was clearly a combo attack between Toshiro and Byakuya.

The Miracle brought him back and he used his Vollstandig on top of that.

Do we have any sort of confirmation on those multipliers?

I refuse to believe you're being genuine here with this downplaying attempt. It was a serious attack and Byakuya blocked it completely while telling Rukia and Renji they were useless. He then proceeded to hold his own against V3 Gerard until Yhwach's Auswhalen.

Yeah, I don't think Byakuya was completely outclassed, but he wasn't the same level as him. And he had Toshiro's help, he didn't hold him off alone. And the fact he didn't level up again until he died means they never gave another decisive blow.

Dragons have been matched by characters without wing throughout the entire story...

In long distance flight speed?

and again PTS Natsu defeated one that's more powerful than them via feats.

Power, not speed. When Whis was first introduced in dbs, he traveled at MFTL speeds through space. He had no combat or destruction feats at that point. Should we have randomly assumed Frieza could fly that fast because he had better power feats at the time? You can't just say a character with a good DC feat is faster than characters who haven't showed off their power but have good speed feats. The only way your argument would work is if we had definite proof they were the same tier of power.

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LeoTheGreatest

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#160  Edited By LeoTheGreatest  Online

@alextheboss:

No, we are talking about speed here, not destructive power. DC feats from those dragons are irrelevant.

In fairy tail power correlates with stats unless stated other wise especially for characters of the same race. The Dragons in question have no statements or feats to suggest they're more powerful than the Dragon Luffy defeated.

I'm not trying to scale them with DC though. If we were talking about that I could agree, but you can't just randomly give all dragons their speed feat. I'm not even saying you are wrong, I'm just saying there is nothing to confirm it.

All characters more powerful than the Dragons scale to it. This is basic scaling which you constantly use yourself.

Or they could have just had the manga panel with Starrk reaching Aizen be shown first?

How would that go with the scene if Kubo wanted to direct all attention towards Aizen? The feat is clear enough already.

Yes, but those high speeds could have easily disoriented her for the time she was moving, and her reaction speed should be lower than Ichigo's anyways.

If that were the case she would've been stumbling and it would've been clear it was the movement that disoriented her but in actuality we see that it's clearly only Aizen having that affect on her.

Are you saying each blade had city level power? That is far from the truth. All of them together would at best have small city level power, and that's being very generous.

That's not what i'm saying but that's not far from the truth either. Shikai Ichigo managed to stop the force of 1,000,000 Zanpaktou and got easily overpowered by Byakuya's Bankai. City level is an understatement and i'm picking up on this pattern you have of heavily underselling Bleach characters yet giving the benifit of the doubt to just about every other series.

Even still, Ichigo should be somewhat close to them. I agree Starrk is probably stronger, but not by a crazy amount. Ichigo should at least be around R1 Ulquiorra at that point.

You tried to claim he's relative to them and then compared him to R1 Ulquiorra even though we're talking about a Resurrected Starkk. Not a lot of sense being made there tbh.

You really think all that move did was freeze his hair? Is that why his body stopped moving? It was clearly a combo attack between Toshiro and Byakuya.

Yup, he has a high resistance to freezing so again we could only infer that the ice indicates what's frozen and he was in the middle of yelling before getting stunted by Byakuya's Senkei.

All in all Byakuya has all the feats to suggest he's exceeds Shikai Kenpachi in power the only argument you really have is a needy plead for more flashy scenes of him matching and overpowering Gerard when what we were given is already more than enough.

Do we have any sort of confirmation on those multipliers?

His first Miracle revival allowed him to go from this

No Caption Provided

To this

No Caption Provided

And Vollstandig's are above general Bankai's

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Yeah, I don't think Byakuya was completely outclassed, but he wasn't the same level as him. And he had Toshiro's help, he didn't hold him off alone. And the fact he didn't level up again until he died means they never gave another decisive blow.

He killed V2 Vollstandig Gerard and matched and held his own against V3 Gerard which btw couldn't kill them either.

In long distance flight speed?

It's a ridiculous PIS scene but Acnologia out of all Dragons was getting outsped so it's clear that a Dragon's flight speed isn't special when it comes to speed in the verse.

Power, not speed. When Whis was first introduced in dbs, he traveled at MFTL speeds through space. He had no combat or destruction feats at that point. Should we have randomly assumed Frieza could fly that fast because he had better power feats at the time? You can't just say a character with a good DC feat is faster than characters who haven't showed off their power but have good speed feats. The only way your argument would work is if we had definite proof they were the same tier of power.

Did you just compare Whis a known top tier character in his verse to characters with absolutely no indications as to why they would be more powerful than the average Dragon? In all kindness GTFOH with that.

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KingOne

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Admirals and yonko hardstomp

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El_directo_

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@alextheboss: The spriggans do have good speed feats. They massively scale above BOS lightning timers and massively scale above mirajane that dodged an explosion pre-timeskip. Then there's Irene's ridiculously fast meteor (which is subrelativistic). Dragon Irene also scale to fodder dragons that traversed a massive continent in seconds/very few minute(which is both travel & movement speed).

As for the strength, have u forgotten that gildarts pulverized a mountain with pure physical strength alone? Did u forget that August was actually going toe to toe, blow for blow with that same freaking gildarts? Heck he even overpowered gildarts at times on a physical level. So how the hell are they lacking?

Then there's dragon Irene. She broke all of erza's(a multi mountain+ char at least) bones with a single freaking casual tap. How is that not impressive? Imagine what a serious physical blow from Irene would be like?

Not to mention Irene is much stronger than a fodder dragon like motherglare who split a city just by stomping the ground? Come on.

Once again i'll ask, how is their physical strength and speed not impressive?

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REQUIEMCROSS

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@el_directo_:

Add more August's AoE Slow Magic and Reflector Magic.

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FaradaySloth

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AlexTheBoss

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@el_directo_: Didn’t Gildarts destroy that mountain with his magic? And the dragons do have good physicals. Erza does as well some her magic is amping her strikes.

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El_directo_

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@alextheboss: No, he didn't use magic. It was the anime that ruined it and made it look like he used crash despite the manga showing otherwise. Its a highly underrated feat that many debaters overlook. August scales to this from trading blows with gildarts and even overpowering him.