If the goal is to kill the other, then there's no contest. Sheogorath is a Daedra, and by definition unkillable. But if it's some other contest, Emperor Joker MIGHT be able to win, at least for the first round. However, Sheogorath has almost complete control over the Shivering Isles, to the point where he can alter reality to his liking.
All-in-all, I can't see Emperor Joker winning this one. It just isn't a fair match-up. However, I could definitely see Sheogorath showing him favor after the contest, provided he survives it.
In that case, we're sort of dealing with Sheogorath as more of a force of nature/entity/concept. The Daedric Princes are basically just laws/concepts of reality that were not used in the creation of the mortal world. They exist in the infinite realm of Oblivion. Oblivion is the darkness of space when you look up at the sky.
Sheogorath, the Daedric Prince, is simply a concept within Oblivion that had enough willpower to carve out some of Oblivion for himself. In doing so, he creates the Shivering Isles, which is a realm of Oblivion. In essence, Sheogorath is the Shivering Isles, and the Shivering Isles are him. He only takes on a physical form so that mortals can interpret him and communicate with him.
Now, even though Oblivion itself is infinite, it's realms, like the Shivering Isles, are also infinite. Infinite in the sense that, a 3D being inside the Shivering Isles will never find a border. It'll go on forever.
The way to think about realms of Oblivion, too, is not so much like "Sheogorath has west Oblivion, Mehrunes Dagon has north Oblivion" - it's more like they all swirl and mesh into each other, all overlapping slightly. They are all infinite, after all.
Also, Daedric Princes can create virtually limitless pocket dimensions/planes. For example, Sanguine the Daedric Prince has, at the bare minimum, 100,000 pockets of Oblivion he dedicates to pleasure. They're called pleasure pockets.
So are Daedric Princes universal? Multiversal? Hard to say. They are also comprised of magic, and the Daedra and Aedra are described as "magical and impossible", so it may be arbitrary to even assign a power level to them. They don't exactly die.
Now, if you're asking, what if Sheogorath wanted to exit Oblivion and invade DC earth, he would no longer be an infinite being. He would be as powerful as his influence over that earth, which would be limited. In Elder Scrolls, the Towers are used to prevent Daedric Princes from breaking into the mortal universe. They've tried to break in many times. If they ever succeed, Elder Scrolls earth is royally screwed.
Battle happens inside shivering Isles.
Unless Emperor Joker has more control over Sheogorath than he has over himself, in other words he's more powerful than him, Sheo wins. Sheo is the Shivering Isles. The whole place is him.
In that case, we're sort of dealing with Sheogorath as more of a force of nature/entity/concept. The Daedric Princes are basically just laws/concepts of reality that were not used in the creation of the mortal world. They exist in the infinite realm of Oblivion. Oblivion is the darkness of space when you look up at the sky.
Sheogorath, the Daedric Prince, is simply a concept within Oblivion that had enough willpower to carve out some of Oblivion for himself. In doing so, he creates the Shivering Isles, which is a realm of Oblivion. In essence, Sheogorath is the Shivering Isles, and the Shivering Isles are him. He only takes on a physical form so that mortals can interpret him and communicate with him.
Now, even though Oblivion itself is infinite, it's realms, like the Shivering Isles, are also infinite. Infinite in the sense that, a 3D being inside the Shivering Isles will never find a border. It'll go on forever.
The way to think about realms of Oblivion, too, is not so much like "Sheogorath has west Oblivion, Mehrunes Dagon has north Oblivion" - it's more like they all swirl and mesh into each other, all overlapping slightly.
Also, Daedric Princes can create virtually limitless pocket dimensions/planes. For example, Sanguine the Daedric Prince has, at the bare minimum, 100,000 pockets of Oblivion he dedicates to pleasure. They're called pleasure pockets.
So are Daedric Princes universal? Multiversal? Hard to say. They are also comprised of magic, and the Daedra and Aedra are described as "magical and impossible", so it may be arbitrary to even assign a power level to them. They don't exactly die.
Now, if you're asking, what if Sheogorath wanted to exit Oblivion and invade DC earth, he would no longer be an infinite being. He would be as powerful as his influence over that earth, which would be limited. In Elder Scrolls, the Towers are used to prevent Daedric Princes from breaking into the mortal universe. They've tried to break in many times. If they ever succeed, Elder Scrolls earth is royally screwed.
Battle happens inside shivering Isles.
Unless Emperor Joker has more control over Sheogorath than he has over himself, in other words he's more powerful than him, Sheo wins. Sheo is the Shivering Isles. The whole place is him.
Sheogorath has more realms then Shivering isles btw we visit another in ESO
Daedric princes should be Multiversal per what they can do create universes etc
Jygglag was so powerful his influence was starting to take over the other Daedric princes realms.
In that case, we're sort of dealing with Sheogorath as more of a force of nature/entity/concept. The Daedric Princes are basically just laws/concepts of reality that were not used in the creation of the mortal world. They exist in the infinite realm of Oblivion. Oblivion is the darkness of space when you look up at the sky.
Sheogorath, the Daedric Prince, is simply a concept within Oblivion that had enough willpower to carve out some of Oblivion for himself. In doing so, he creates the Shivering Isles, which is a realm of Oblivion. In essence, Sheogorath is the Shivering Isles, and the Shivering Isles are him. He only takes on a physical form so that mortals can interpret him and communicate with him.
Now, even though Oblivion itself is infinite, it's realms, like the Shivering Isles, are also infinite. Infinite in the sense that, a 3D being inside the Shivering Isles will never find a border. It'll go on forever.
The way to think about realms of Oblivion, too, is not so much like "Sheogorath has west Oblivion, Mehrunes Dagon has north Oblivion" - it's more like they all swirl and mesh into each other, all overlapping slightly. They are all infinite, after all.
Also, Daedric Princes can create virtually limitless pocket dimensions/planes. For example, Sanguine the Daedric Prince has, at the bare minimum, 100,000 pockets of Oblivion he dedicates to pleasure. They're called pleasure pockets.
So are Daedric Princes universal? Multiversal? Hard to say. They are also comprised of magic, and the Daedra and Aedra are described as "magical and impossible", so it may be arbitrary to even assign a power level to them. They don't exactly die.
Now, if you're asking, what if Sheogorath wanted to exit Oblivion and invade DC earth, he would no longer be an infinite being. He would be as powerful as his influence over that earth, which would be limited. In Elder Scrolls, the Towers are used to prevent Daedric Princes from breaking into the mortal universe. They've tried to break in many times. If they ever succeed, Elder Scrolls earth is royally screwed.
Battle happens inside shivering Isles.
Unless Emperor Joker has more control over Sheogorath than he has over himself, in other words he's more powerful than him, Sheo wins. Sheo is the Shivering Isles. The whole place is him.
Damn, amazing awnser.
It's also worth noticing that Daedric Prince Powers are heavily decreased in power on Nirn, Mehrunes Dagon during his invasion to Obvilion, despite suceeding bringing a good part of his concept to Tamriel was still very weak on it's physical form compared to it's whole self. And there's also the Aedra question, it's very possible that the presence of Gods such as Auri-el in Mundus weakens the power of the Deadric Prince, as most concepts of reality inside Mundus were created and are part of the Aedra.
If the Deadra somehow managed to bring their wholeselfs to Mundus, they would be compleately unstopable.
@frocharocha: Yeah, pretty much. I sort of look at it like the Aedra, specifically Lorkhan, represent everything that is human/mortal. Daedra, who had no involvement in creation of Mundus, are then entirely un-human. That is why them having influence over Nirn is bad: that would mean upsetting the natural order of reality. Especially if Sheogorath found a way in.
Darkseid believed Emperor Joker to be the power of the Anti-Life Equation, which easily possesses Multiversal + power (The Anti-Life Entity being the dark side of the Source, ALE being capable of crushing the cosmos, turning New Gods into homeless people, etc). We also know that True Darkseid merely falling into the mainstream DC Multiverse was causing all of time and space in the mainstream multiverse to collapse and be destroyed, and the ALE is completely beyond even this.
Spectre also notes that Emperor Joker's machinations would inadvertentlycause the destruction of everything that was, is, and will be. This is presumably referring to all universes and timelines. Emperor Joker was also casually making the Quintessence + Darkseid + Spectre his bitches, destroying the universe with an ACME bomb and recreating it, and treating Heaven and Hell as if they were toys to be bent to his will.
As for Mxy, he's capable of shaking up the cosmos (i.e. the Multiverse) as if it's his toy, causing retcons on a whim, create infinite universes and timelines just to screw with Superman, and is completely beyond the concept of time. Joker wields 99.99% of his power.
On another note, it took Mxy 5 hours to fix the damage that Emperor Joker had wrought. 5 hours is an eternity for someone as powerful as Mxy.
There is no way in hell that Sheogorath is even capable of touching Emperor Joker. We know how the concept of time in ES (Akatosh) handles these Daedric Princes, even in their own realms. Time is a toy to the likes of Emperor Joker.
May be late, but idc. Daedric Princes are immensely powerful, well above Multiversal. They not only control multiversal realms but they embody concepts. And they can freely travel through Oblivion. Plus you they are higher dimensional. The Hist and Jills had a war where the Hist launched 16th-Dimensional mathematics at them. (Seriously, that happened) Granted neither are Daedra, but they should rank in that ballpark at minimum. Also there is a barrier around the Mundus that prevents the Daedra from completely coming in. If this battle takes place in any other verse, then that barrier is not present and they can hit full force.
@siremystking52: Based on the way daedra are described, unless he can turn the endless into chickens too, I don't think that's an option. Sheo doesn't really have any feats himself, but should comparable to other et'ada like akatosh, azura, molag bal, etc. Inside their own realms, et'ada can basically do whatever they want and freely manipulate any concepts that exist within, if they want the concepts to exist at all. Many daedric realms like the shivering isles are pretty simple but only because the daedra wills it to be so. Other realms like vaermina's are said to be horrifying and incomprehensible, constantly shifting and becoming increasingly more terrifying and abstract. Nocturnal's realm is also in a constant state of flux and is perceived differently by each individual entity. But even outside their realms, et'ada are still immensely powerful. Daedra just aren't able to fully interact with mundus because there are barriers in place separating it from oblivion
@kinginrags: The wabbajack is irrelevant. Daedric artifacts have a minute fraction of the power their creators possess. He can just as easily turn someone in his realm into cheese without it
@cosmoman: How are you calling the scaling chains of a verse you never read Laughable? Multiversal+ is fodder to Celestials who destroy Multiverses with infinite Timelines and all manifesting possibilities with multiple infinite planets via merely existing, so I don't see how your " feats " are going to change anything in the context of the battle , you are welcome to debate me on TES as long as you do it civilfully
Part I - Nirn
Nirn , is in simple terms , a Finite Ball of Matter and Magic that works together to make a planet
What is Nirn?
Nirn (Ehnofex [sic] [Do not change this to Ehlnofex. This misspelled word is how it officially appears.] for 'Arena') is a finite ball of matter and magic made from all of the god planets at the beginning of time, when Lorkhan tricked/convinced/forced the gods to create the mortal plane. Nirn is the mortal plane and the mortal planet, which is the same thing. Its creation upset the cosmic balance; now all souls (especially the Aedra-Daedra/Gods-Demons) have a vested interest in Nirn (especially its starry heart, Tamriel).
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Nirn though , is a very complex Planet , for example the Water isn't actually water…..but the Memories of the Dead
Did You Know: Water is composed of memory? When a mortal dies, his or her memories become water, and in this way all of the memories of Tamriel's history are stored within its waters. https://t.co/tG5UpSjGpJ
this is Supported by the Augur of Obscure explaining that The Water has Transliminal Tones .
If I take you out of that box, will you help me find these time breaches? "I'm actually quite comfortable here, mate. Cozy accomodations, the transliminal tones of the ocean waves, gangly meat-brains to mock. But I guess I should be going. These Elves plan to sell me! Can you imagine? I'll help you. On one condition."
-- Augur of Obscure , Elder Scrolls Online
What are Transliminal Tones?
Transliminality (literally, "going beyond the threshold") was a concept introduced by the parapsychologist Michael Thalbourne, an Australian psychologist who was based at the University of Adelaide. It is defined as a hypersensitivity to psychological material (imagery, ideation, affect, and perception) originating in (a) the unconscious, and/or (b) the external environment (Thalbourne & Maltby, 2008). High degrees of this trait have been shown by Thalbourne to be associated with increased tendency to mystical experience, greater creativity, and greater belief in the paranormal, but Thalbourne has also found evidence that transliminality may be positively correlated with psychoticism. He has published articles on transliminality in journals on parapsychology and psychology.
-- Wikipedia
The Existence Of Transliminal Tones Furthur Supports The Memories thing but Let's Go even furthur .
Its said that the Oceans of Nirn , literally holds All Inverse Number Forms which would be Infinite to a high degree ( considering that any Two Numbers have infinite Numbers between them due to the workings of Decimals )
Also a statement about how it can be comprehended in Three Dimensions and even higher , making even the oceans Higher Dimensional
"A breach near the sea! I do love the ocean. It's a shame you can only see in three dimensions. All the quasi-tones and inverse number-forms .... Actually, I take it back—your meat-brain would explode if you saw this."
-- Augur of Obscure
The Complexity of The Oceans do not End here Though , to move through oceans On Nirn is to Move through Time
Tamriel is the present. It is literally the center of time.
Akavir is the East and it is in the future.
Hammerfell is to the West and is in the past.
Traveling from west to east means more than taking time to sail, it means sailing across time.
Atmora to the North is frozen in time. As such, it didn't really exist at all.
Aldmeris to the South is** outside of time**. As such, it didn't really exist at all.
The moons? Now they're really weird when it comes to time.
It's linear. It follows a line.
The Line, if you get me
- Michael Kirkbride
so that shows us that Nirn has really really complex Oceanic Mechanics and Water in General
Part II - Spatiality
What is The Space , The Stars , The Sky and The Shooting Stars?
in simple words , the Stars are Holes in the Sky made by Magnus and The Magne Ge During their Retreat from Mundus after Being betrayed from Lorkhan
What is the sun?
Magnus is the sun, the largest hole in Oblivion, and the gateway to magic. Magnus was present at the creation of the mortal plane, and, in fact, was its architect (Lorkhan was its advocate and inspiration). Prehistoric (before ME2500, startyear) Nirn was a magical place, and highly unstable to the first mortals. Magnus then left, some say in disgust, and Oblivion filled in the void with the Void. His escape was not easy, and tatters of Magnus remain in the firmament as stars.
What are stars?
The stars are the bridges to Aetherius, the magic plane. They are perceived as holes on the inside surface of space. Because they are on the inside of a sphere, all stars are equidistant from Nirn. Larger stars, therefore, are not closer to the mortal plane, they are just larger tears in Oblivion. The largest tear in Oblivion is Magnus, the sun
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
The Stars are the Source of all Magic as they are The Links To Aetherius
Aetherius is the only place that have been explained as The Source Of All Magic/Magicka
The stars are our links to the plane of Aetherius, the source of all magical power, and therefore, light from the stars is the most potent and exalted of all magical powers
Girnalin: "They are Aetherius. Rather, the sun and stars are holes pierced in the wall of night by Magnus - and other spirits - seeking to escape Nirn."
"These holes permit Aetherius' light to enter our world. From theirs to ours does Magicka trickle."
-- Elder Scrolls Online
The Space and The Sky , is simply an interpretation of the changing sides
What is space?
Space is the interpretation of Oblivion, which is black and empty and surrounds the mortal plane. Space is infinite, but it acts just like a planet, in that Oblivion is 'surrounded' by Aetherius. You can see Aetherius by the stars
-- Michael Kirkbride 1999
What is the sky?
The sky is another visual phenomenon caused by mortal mental stress, the night sky in particular. The sky is as impossible as planets; in essence, when you look into the sky, 'you look outside the material plane'. At night, Nirn is surrounded by Oblivion. The day sky is the multicolored elemental cloak of Magnus the sun. It changes colors as elemental influences rise and fall. Thus, when one looks at the day sky, they see into the raiments of Aetherius, and stare at magic.
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Shooting stars? special Magical Matter that are for some unknown reason send to the Mortal Plane from Aetherius
What are shooting stars, then?
A misnomer. Shooting stars are bits of matter and magic, either from Oblivion or Aetherius, that sometimes move through the cosmos. The largest shooting stars are really planets with independent orbits, like Baan Dar the Rogue Plane.
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Part III - The Timelines
There are Like…. Two to three Temporal Dimension In Mundus alone
"“You look to your left, you see one way. You look to your right, you see another. But neither is any harder than the opposite. But the Elder Scrolls... they look left and right in the stream of time. The future and past are as one: Sometimes they even look up. What do they see then? What if they dive in? Then the madness begins."
-- From Septimus Signus:
Here he describes how the scrolls can look left and right in time (the future and the past), but he goes on to say that they can also look up and down which would be another axis or dimension of time.
" It would take a month to explain to you how that very question doesn't even make sense. The Scrolls exist here, with us, but also beyond and beneath. Before and after. "
-- Urag gro-Shub: "
and there are infinite Timelines/futures as to move on one future is to ignore an infinite futures
The Divine Metronome calls the first motion "The Motion of Lines." Line-motion is the motion of simple minds - the motion of weak wills and scholars' vanity. "Forward!" it cries! Forward to the fruits of cheap ambition. Forward to the promise of everlasting kingdoms. Forward to the mirage that the sages call "progress." These misguided pioneers venture out into their wild tomorrows, and the tomorrows after that, certain of their worth - their virtue. But what profits a man or mer to gaze deep into a single future? The aims of mortals are narrow, far too narrow! To move forward is to ignore infinite angles in favor of one. It is the act of a beast or a child. The Clockwork God spurns vanity in the guise of courage. These explorers' travels only lead them farther from Tamriel Final. Anuvanna'si
-- The Truth in Sequence VII
Part IV - The Shadows
Azra Nightweilder was a Brilliant Mage who found that All Possibilities are showed by Shadows and By Manipulating The Very same Shadows he showed that all possibilties are actually passively manifesting
First Scroll of Shadow
... chosen to explore this relation of world to shadow, Azra was the first to realize that shadows were not a mere absence of light but a reflection of possible worlds created by forces in conflict. A light strikes a rock, and the shadow is a record of their clash, past, present and future.
Other conflicting forces produced less obvious shadows, fire and water, wind and rock, or nations at war.
With skill and patience, the shadows of all could be read, and patterns teased out, emphasized or eradicated.
Manipulating a shadow could, through contagion, manipulate the object or force which cast it.
Second Scroll of Shadow
... Azra attempted what had never been done before, manipulating his own shadow to such an extent that he instantiated and melded all possible Azras at the same time, crossing over from this singular existence to all the existences in shadow.
These Shadows Aka Possibilities Manifest as Adjacent places
appeared and drank from the excess. Grabbers from the Adjacent Place came into the world sideways, the slave talking having disrupted
-- 36 lessons of Vivec
this is confirmed when the Augur of Obscure Directly states that he would be something different in a different Adjacent Place
Why are you stuck in a crystal skull? "I'm not in the skull. I am the skull—at least here on Nirn. Over in the Adjacent Place, I'm shaped like a throw-pillow. Imagine that! You look confused. It's just a trick of the light, mate. The skull's what you might call a manifestation."
-- Augur of Obscure
so this concludes the Mundus part
what we established for Mundus was
The Oceans are really complex , containing all of maths , Transliminal Waves and complex Quasi-Tones
The Earthbones are what makes the Laws of Physics
Infinities can be greater and smaller
Human eye limits Comprehension abilities
Stars are Portals but still act like Stars in Size , making Nebulaes and Providing The World with Energy
There are infinite Timelines
There are Multiple Temporal Dimensions
The Unstars is a way of saying the Word " Void "
There is an Unlimited Number of Shadows and thus possibilities
Infinite possibilities exist as infinite Adjacent places
Gods are Conceptual Embodiments
Part V - How Alduin Scales to all of It
even low tier Gods such as the Celestial passive presence can emit too much energy for Mundus and thus need to come wirh avatars and seals
The Elder Scrolls Online
Alduin is obviously much above the celestials , I will prove if you ask me too , meaning Alduin's inferior can destroy a Dimension with infinite Tinelines , infinite sized planes ( the god planes ) and all possibilities manifesting by passive presence .
even Et Ada avatars are implied to be far above The Celestials , to the point they can't even compete with them
Vestige:Who's competing in these games?
Aspera Arena-Friend:The better question might be who isn't competing. We have a fascinating mix of proven warriors and brutal killers. They can fight and that's all that matters.
And I have it on good authority that there are some surprises in store. So exciting!
Vestige:How can an arena run with everything going on in this region?
Aspera Arena-Friend:You mean that nonsense with the Serpent and those other foolish Celestials? What goes on outside, remains outside.
Vestige:That's a pretty dangerous assumption.
Aspera Arena-Friend:What? Oh, sorry. I was just imagining the possibilities.
I wonder what would happen if the Serpent and the other Celestials came here to compete? I'm almost tempted to invite them. Almost.
Vestige:Are you participating?
Aspera Arena-Friend:Compete? Me? And how would that be fair? No, I don't participate.
But I'll be watching you and your group closely. I can promise you that.
Part VI - To Be A God
Gods In Elder Scrolls have a very complex relation with time so do lesser gods such as the Hist , they view time from an interior perspective , to them past/present and future were all happening at once
the Dwemer:
"I have no idea what happened to the Dwemer. I have no sense of them in the timeless divine world outside of mortal time. And, in fact, if I did believe they existed, I would be in no hurry to make contact with them. They may, with some justice, hold the Dunmer race responsible for their fate. My intuition is that they are gone forever -- and that is perfectly fine with me."
to be a god:
"It is like being a juggler. Things are always moving, and you learn to know where they are without even thinking about it. Only there are many, many things moving. And sometimes, like any juggler, you drop something. I'm afraid it has become a lot more a matter of dropping things lately. There's too much to do, and not enough time, and I'm losing my touch. Perhaps I'm growing old."
"It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it."
"It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once."
the Hist went even deeper regarding this topic that Vivec did , they are stated to see all of time as an illusion and the linear progression as a limitation on human mind
To his people - at least the most traditional ones - birth and death were the same moment. All of life all of history was one moment, and only by ignoring most of its content could one create the illusion of linear progression. The agreement to see things in this limited way was what other peoples called 'time'.
The Infernal City
The concept Imperials called 'time' did not have a word in his native language. In fact, the hardest part of learning the language of the Imperials was that they made their verbs different to indicate when something had happened, as if the most important thing in the world was to establish a linear sequence of events, as if doing so somehow explained things better than holistic apprehension.
- The Infernal City
Each day the same day, each year the same year
- The Infernal City
Due to the nature to time and how they are beyond the linear progression , the same linear progression that defines concepts such as speed , I will argue that they are Irrelevant tiers in speed because conventional laws of speed don't apply to the gods in TES
there is much more , but this should more then do for now , also sheogorath >(>>>) Alduin.
@cosmoman: How are you calling the scaling chains of a verse you never read Laughable? Multiversal+ is fodder to Celestials who destroy Multiverses with infinite Timelines and all manifesting possibilities with multiple infinite planets via merely existing, so I don't see how your " feats " are going to change anything in the context of the battle , you are welcome to debate me on TES as long as you do it civilfully
Part I - Nirn
Nirn , is in simple terms , a Finite Ball of Matter and Magic that works together to make a planet
What is Nirn?
Nirn (Ehnofex [sic] [Do not change this to Ehlnofex. This misspelled word is how it officially appears.] for 'Arena') is a finite ball of matter and magic made from all of the god planets at the beginning of time, when Lorkhan tricked/convinced/forced the gods to create the mortal plane. Nirn is the mortal plane and the mortal planet, which is the same thing. Its creation upset the cosmic balance; now all souls (especially the Aedra-Daedra/Gods-Demons) have a vested interest in Nirn (especially its starry heart, Tamriel).
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Nirn though , is a very complex Planet , for example the Water isn't actually water…..but the Memories of the Dead
Did You Know: Water is composed of memory? When a mortal dies, his or her memories become water, and in this way all of the memories of Tamriel's history are stored within its waters. https://t.co/tG5UpSjGpJ
this is Supported by the Augur of Obscure explaining that The Water has Transliminal Tones .
If I take you out of that box, will you help me find these time breaches? "I'm actually quite comfortable here, mate. Cozy accomodations, the transliminal tones of the ocean waves, gangly meat-brains to mock. But I guess I should be going. These Elves plan to sell me! Can you imagine? I'll help you. On one condition."
-- Augur of Obscure , Elder Scrolls Online
What are Transliminal Tones?
Transliminality (literally, "going beyond the threshold") was a concept introduced by the parapsychologist Michael Thalbourne, an Australian psychologist who was based at the University of Adelaide. It is defined as a hypersensitivity to psychological material (imagery, ideation, affect, and perception) originating in (a) the unconscious, and/or (b) the external environment (Thalbourne & Maltby, 2008). High degrees of this trait have been shown by Thalbourne to be associated with increased tendency to mystical experience, greater creativity, and greater belief in the paranormal, but Thalbourne has also found evidence that transliminality may be positively correlated with psychoticism. He has published articles on transliminality in journals on parapsychology and psychology.
-- Wikipedia
The Existence Of Transliminal Tones Furthur Supports The Memories thing but Let's Go even furthur .
Its said that the Oceans of Nirn , literally holds All Inverse Number Forms which would be Infinite to a high degree ( considering that any Two Numbers have infinite Numbers between them due to the workings of Decimals )
Also a statement about how it can be comprehended in Three Dimensions and even higher , making even the oceans Higher Dimensional
"A breach near the sea! I do love the ocean. It's a shame you can only see in three dimensions. All the quasi-tones and inverse number-forms .... Actually, I take it back—your meat-brain would explode if you saw this."
-- Augur of Obscure
The Complexity of The Oceans do not End here Though , to move through oceans On Nirn is to Move through Time
Tamriel is the present. It is literally the center of time.
Akavir is the East and it is in the future.
Hammerfell is to the West and is in the past.
Traveling from west to east means more than taking time to sail, it means sailing across time.
Atmora to the North is frozen in time. As such, it didn't really exist at all.
Aldmeris to the South is** outside of time**. As such, it didn't really exist at all.
The moons? Now they're really weird when it comes to time.
It's linear. It follows a line.
The Line, if you get me
- Michael Kirkbride
so that shows us that Nirn has really really complex Oceanic Mechanics and Water in General
Part II - Spatiality
What is The Space , The Stars , The Sky and The Shooting Stars?
in simple words , the Stars are Holes in the Sky made by Magnus and The Magne Ge During their Retreat from Mundus after Being betrayed from Lorkhan
What is the sun?
Magnus is the sun, the largest hole in Oblivion, and the gateway to magic. Magnus was present at the creation of the mortal plane, and, in fact, was its architect (Lorkhan was its advocate and inspiration). Prehistoric (before ME2500, startyear) Nirn was a magical place, and highly unstable to the first mortals. Magnus then left, some say in disgust, and Oblivion filled in the void with the Void. His escape was not easy, and tatters of Magnus remain in the firmament as stars.
What are stars?
The stars are the bridges to Aetherius, the magic plane. They are perceived as holes on the inside surface of space. Because they are on the inside of a sphere, all stars are equidistant from Nirn. Larger stars, therefore, are not closer to the mortal plane, they are just larger tears in Oblivion. The largest tear in Oblivion is Magnus, the sun
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
The Stars are the Source of all Magic as they are The Links To Aetherius
Aetherius is the only place that have been explained as The Source Of All Magic/Magicka
The stars are our links to the plane of Aetherius, the source of all magical power, and therefore, light from the stars is the most potent and exalted of all magical powers
Girnalin: "They are Aetherius. Rather, the sun and stars are holes pierced in the wall of night by Magnus - and other spirits - seeking to escape Nirn."
"These holes permit Aetherius' light to enter our world. From theirs to ours does Magicka trickle."
-- Elder Scrolls Online
The Space and The Sky , is simply an interpretation of the changing sides
What is space?
Space is the interpretation of Oblivion, which is black and empty and surrounds the mortal plane. Space is infinite, but it acts just like a planet, in that Oblivion is 'surrounded' by Aetherius. You can see Aetherius by the stars
-- Michael Kirkbride 1999
What is the sky?
The sky is another visual phenomenon caused by mortal mental stress, the night sky in particular. The sky is as impossible as planets; in essence, when you look into the sky, 'you look outside the material plane'. At night, Nirn is surrounded by Oblivion. The day sky is the multicolored elemental cloak of Magnus the sun. It changes colors as elemental influences rise and fall. Thus, when one looks at the day sky, they see into the raiments of Aetherius, and stare at magic.
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Shooting stars? special Magical Matter that are for some unknown reason send to the Mortal Plane from Aetherius
What are shooting stars, then?
A misnomer. Shooting stars are bits of matter and magic, either from Oblivion or Aetherius, that sometimes move through the cosmos. The largest shooting stars are really planets with independent orbits, like Baan Dar the Rogue Plane.
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Part III - The Timelines
There are Like…. Two to three Temporal Dimension In Mundus alone
"“You look to your left, you see one way. You look to your right, you see another. But neither is any harder than the opposite. But the Elder Scrolls... they look left and right in the stream of time. The future and past are as one: Sometimes they even look up. What do they see then? What if they dive in? Then the madness begins."
-- From Septimus Signus:
Here he describes how the scrolls can look left and right in time (the future and the past), but he goes on to say that they can also look up and down which would be another axis or dimension of time.
" It would take a month to explain to you how that very question doesn't even make sense. The Scrolls exist here, with us, but also beyond and beneath. Before and after. "
-- Urag gro-Shub: "
and there are infinite Timelines/futures as to move on one future is to ignore an infinite futures
The Divine Metronome calls the first motion "The Motion of Lines." Line-motion is the motion of simple minds - the motion of weak wills and scholars' vanity. "Forward!" it cries! Forward to the fruits of cheap ambition. Forward to the promise of everlasting kingdoms. Forward to the mirage that the sages call "progress." These misguided pioneers venture out into their wild tomorrows, and the tomorrows after that, certain of their worth - their virtue. But what profits a man or mer to gaze deep into a single future? The aims of mortals are narrow, far too narrow! To move forward is to ignore infinite angles in favor of one. It is the act of a beast or a child. The Clockwork God spurns vanity in the guise of courage. These explorers' travels only lead them farther from Tamriel Final. Anuvanna'si
-- The Truth in Sequence VII
Part IV - The Shadows
Azra Nightweilder was a Brilliant Mage who found that All Possibilities are showed by Shadows and By Manipulating The Very same Shadows he showed that all possibilties are actually passively manifesting
First Scroll of Shadow
... chosen to explore this relation of world to shadow, Azra was the first to realize that shadows were not a mere absence of light but a reflection of possible worlds created by forces in conflict. A light strikes a rock, and the shadow is a record of their clash, past, present and future.
Other conflicting forces produced less obvious shadows, fire and water, wind and rock, or nations at war.
With skill and patience, the shadows of all could be read, and patterns teased out, emphasized or eradicated.
Manipulating a shadow could, through contagion, manipulate the object or force which cast it.
Second Scroll of Shadow
... Azra attempted what had never been done before, manipulating his own shadow to such an extent that he instantiated and melded all possible Azras at the same time, crossing over from this singular existence to all the existences in shadow.
These Shadows Aka Possibilities Manifest as Adjacent places
appeared and drank from the excess. Grabbers from the Adjacent Place came into the world sideways, the slave talking having disrupted
-- 36 lessons of Vivec
this is confirmed when the Augur of Obscure Directly states that he would be something different in a different Adjacent Place
Why are you stuck in a crystal skull? "I'm not in the skull. I am the skull—at least here on Nirn. Over in the Adjacent Place, I'm shaped like a throw-pillow. Imagine that! You look confused. It's just a trick of the light, mate. The skull's what you might call a manifestation."
-- Augur of Obscure
so this concludes the Mundus part
what we established for Mundus was
The Oceans are really complex , containing all of maths , Transliminal Waves and complex Quasi-Tones
The Earthbones are what makes the Laws of Physics
Infinities can be greater and smaller
Human eye limits Comprehension abilities
Stars are Portals but still act like Stars in Size , making Nebulaes and Providing The World with Energy
There are infinite Timelines
There are Multiple Temporal Dimensions
The Unstars is a way of saying the Word " Void "
There is an Unlimited Number of Shadows and thus possibilities
Infinite possibilities exist as infinite Adjacent places
Gods are Conceptual Embodiments
Part V - How Alduin Scales to all of It
even low tier Gods such as the Celestial passive presence can emit too much energy for Mundus and thus need to come wirh avatars and seals
The Elder Scrolls Online
Alduin is obviously much above the celestials , I will prove if you ask me too , meaning Alduin's inferior can destroy a Dimension with infinite Tinelines , infinite sized planes ( the god planes ) and all possibilities manifesting by passive presence .
even Et Ada avatars are implied to be far above The Celestials , to the point they can't even compete with them
Vestige:Who's competing in these games?
Aspera Arena-Friend:The better question might be who isn't competing. We have a fascinating mix of proven warriors and brutal killers. They can fight and that's all that matters.
And I have it on good authority that there are some surprises in store. So exciting!
Vestige:How can an arena run with everything going on in this region?
Aspera Arena-Friend:You mean that nonsense with the Serpent and those other foolish Celestials? What goes on outside, remains outside.
Vestige:That's a pretty dangerous assumption.
Aspera Arena-Friend:What? Oh, sorry. I was just imagining the possibilities.
I wonder what would happen if the Serpent and the other Celestials came here to compete? I'm almost tempted to invite them. Almost.
Vestige:Are you participating?
Aspera Arena-Friend:Compete? Me? And how would that be fair? No, I don't participate.
But I'll be watching you and your group closely. I can promise you that.
Part VI - To Be A God
Gods In Elder Scrolls have a very complex relation with time so do lesser gods such as the Hist , they view time from an interior perspective , to them past/present and future were all happening at once
the Dwemer:
"I have no idea what happened to the Dwemer. I have no sense of them in the timeless divine world outside of mortal time. And, in fact, if I did believe they existed, I would be in no hurry to make contact with them. They may, with some justice, hold the Dunmer race responsible for their fate. My intuition is that they are gone forever -- and that is perfectly fine with me."
to be a god:
"It is like being a juggler. Things are always moving, and you learn to know where they are without even thinking about it. Only there are many, many things moving. And sometimes, like any juggler, you drop something. I'm afraid it has become a lot more a matter of dropping things lately. There's too much to do, and not enough time, and I'm losing my touch. Perhaps I'm growing old."
"It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it."
"It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once."
the Hist went even deeper regarding this topic that Vivec did , they are stated to see all of time as an illusion and the linear progression as a limitation on human mind
To his people - at least the most traditional ones - birth and death were the same moment. All of life all of history was one moment, and only by ignoring most of its content could one create the illusion of linear progression. The agreement to see things in this limited way was what other peoples called 'time'.
The Infernal City
The concept Imperials called 'time' did not have a word in his native language. In fact, the hardest part of learning the language of the Imperials was that they made their verbs different to indicate when something had happened, as if the most important thing in the world was to establish a linear sequence of events, as if doing so somehow explained things better than holistic apprehension.
- The Infernal City
Each day the same day, each year the same year
- The Infernal City
Due to the nature to time and how they are beyond the linear progression , the same linear progression that defines concepts such as speed , I will argue that they are Irrelevant tiers in speed because conventional laws of speed don't apply to the gods in TES
there is much more , but this should more then do for now , also sheogorath >(>>>) Alduin.
What is the power range of the EJ? The Celestial Guardians can wipe out the entire Mundus with the mere presence of his avatar.
Mundus is a construct composed of many expanding transinfinite multiverse which in addition possess infinite alternative versions of themselves in the form of infinite possibilities.
The Celestial Guardians ones are fodder for et'Ada.
@cosmoman: How are you calling the scaling chains of a verse you never read Laughable? Multiversal+ is fodder to Celestials who destroy Multiverses with infinite Timelines and all manifesting possibilities with multiple infinite planets via merely existing, so I don't see how your " feats " are going to change anything in the context of the battle , you are welcome to debate me on TES as long as you do it civilfully
Part I - Nirn
Nirn , is in simple terms , a Finite Ball of Matter and Magic that works together to make a planet
What is Nirn?
Nirn (Ehnofex [sic] [Do not change this to Ehlnofex. This misspelled word is how it officially appears.] for 'Arena') is a finite ball of matter and magic made from all of the god planets at the beginning of time, when Lorkhan tricked/convinced/forced the gods to create the mortal plane. Nirn is the mortal plane and the mortal planet, which is the same thing. Its creation upset the cosmic balance; now all souls (especially the Aedra-Daedra/Gods-Demons) have a vested interest in Nirn (especially its starry heart, Tamriel).
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Nirn though , is a very complex Planet , for example the Water isn't actually water…..but the Memories of the Dead
Did You Know: Water is composed of memory? When a mortal dies, his or her memories become water, and in this way all of the memories of Tamriel's history are stored within its waters. https://t.co/tG5UpSjGpJ
this is Supported by the Augur of Obscure explaining that The Water has Transliminal Tones .
If I take you out of that box, will you help me find these time breaches? "I'm actually quite comfortable here, mate. Cozy accomodations, the transliminal tones of the ocean waves, gangly meat-brains to mock. But I guess I should be going. These Elves plan to sell me! Can you imagine? I'll help you. On one condition."
-- Augur of Obscure , Elder Scrolls Online
What are Transliminal Tones?
Transliminality (literally, "going beyond the threshold") was a concept introduced by the parapsychologist Michael Thalbourne, an Australian psychologist who was based at the University of Adelaide. It is defined as a hypersensitivity to psychological material (imagery, ideation, affect, and perception) originating in (a) the unconscious, and/or (b) the external environment (Thalbourne & Maltby, 2008). High degrees of this trait have been shown by Thalbourne to be associated with increased tendency to mystical experience, greater creativity, and greater belief in the paranormal, but Thalbourne has also found evidence that transliminality may be positively correlated with psychoticism. He has published articles on transliminality in journals on parapsychology and psychology.
-- Wikipedia
The Existence Of Transliminal Tones Furthur Supports The Memories thing but Let's Go even furthur .
Its said that the Oceans of Nirn , literally holds All Inverse Number Forms which would be Infinite to a high degree ( considering that any Two Numbers have infinite Numbers between them due to the workings of Decimals )
Also a statement about how it can be comprehended in Three Dimensions and even higher , making even the oceans Higher Dimensional
"A breach near the sea! I do love the ocean. It's a shame you can only see in three dimensions. All the quasi-tones and inverse number-forms .... Actually, I take it back—your meat-brain would explode if you saw this."
-- Augur of Obscure
The Complexity of The Oceans do not End here Though , to move through oceans On Nirn is to Move through Time
Tamriel is the present. It is literally the center of time.
Akavir is the East and it is in the future.
Hammerfell is to the West and is in the past.
Traveling from west to east means more than taking time to sail, it means sailing across time.
Atmora to the North is frozen in time. As such, it didn't really exist at all.
Aldmeris to the South is** outside of time**. As such, it didn't really exist at all.
The moons? Now they're really weird when it comes to time.
It's linear. It follows a line.
The Line, if you get me
- Michael Kirkbride
so that shows us that Nirn has really really complex Oceanic Mechanics and Water in General
Part II - Spatiality
What is The Space , The Stars , The Sky and The Shooting Stars?
in simple words , the Stars are Holes in the Sky made by Magnus and The Magne Ge During their Retreat from Mundus after Being betrayed from Lorkhan
What is the sun?
Magnus is the sun, the largest hole in Oblivion, and the gateway to magic. Magnus was present at the creation of the mortal plane, and, in fact, was its architect (Lorkhan was its advocate and inspiration). Prehistoric (before ME2500, startyear) Nirn was a magical place, and highly unstable to the first mortals. Magnus then left, some say in disgust, and Oblivion filled in the void with the Void. His escape was not easy, and tatters of Magnus remain in the firmament as stars.
What are stars?
The stars are the bridges to Aetherius, the magic plane. They are perceived as holes on the inside surface of space. Because they are on the inside of a sphere, all stars are equidistant from Nirn. Larger stars, therefore, are not closer to the mortal plane, they are just larger tears in Oblivion. The largest tear in Oblivion is Magnus, the sun
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
The Stars are the Source of all Magic as they are The Links To Aetherius
Aetherius is the only place that have been explained as The Source Of All Magic/Magicka
The stars are our links to the plane of Aetherius, the source of all magical power, and therefore, light from the stars is the most potent and exalted of all magical powers
Girnalin: "They are Aetherius. Rather, the sun and stars are holes pierced in the wall of night by Magnus - and other spirits - seeking to escape Nirn."
"These holes permit Aetherius' light to enter our world. From theirs to ours does Magicka trickle."
-- Elder Scrolls Online
The Space and The Sky , is simply an interpretation of the changing sides
What is space?
Space is the interpretation of Oblivion, which is black and empty and surrounds the mortal plane. Space is infinite, but it acts just like a planet, in that Oblivion is 'surrounded' by Aetherius. You can see Aetherius by the stars
-- Michael Kirkbride 1999
What is the sky?
The sky is another visual phenomenon caused by mortal mental stress, the night sky in particular. The sky is as impossible as planets; in essence, when you look into the sky, 'you look outside the material plane'. At night, Nirn is surrounded by Oblivion. The day sky is the multicolored elemental cloak of Magnus the sun. It changes colors as elemental influences rise and fall. Thus, when one looks at the day sky, they see into the raiments of Aetherius, and stare at magic.
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Shooting stars? special Magical Matter that are for some unknown reason send to the Mortal Plane from Aetherius
What are shooting stars, then?
A misnomer. Shooting stars are bits of matter and magic, either from Oblivion or Aetherius, that sometimes move through the cosmos. The largest shooting stars are really planets with independent orbits, like Baan Dar the Rogue Plane.
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Part III - The Timelines
There are Like…. Two to three Temporal Dimension In Mundus alone
"“You look to your left, you see one way. You look to your right, you see another. But neither is any harder than the opposite. But the Elder Scrolls... they look left and right in the stream of time. The future and past are as one: Sometimes they even look up. What do they see then? What if they dive in? Then the madness begins."
-- From Septimus Signus:
Here he describes how the scrolls can look left and right in time (the future and the past), but he goes on to say that they can also look up and down which would be another axis or dimension of time.
" It would take a month to explain to you how that very question doesn't even make sense. The Scrolls exist here, with us, but also beyond and beneath. Before and after. "
-- Urag gro-Shub: "
and there are infinite Timelines/futures as to move on one future is to ignore an infinite futures
The Divine Metronome calls the first motion "The Motion of Lines." Line-motion is the motion of simple minds - the motion of weak wills and scholars' vanity. "Forward!" it cries! Forward to the fruits of cheap ambition. Forward to the promise of everlasting kingdoms. Forward to the mirage that the sages call "progress." These misguided pioneers venture out into their wild tomorrows, and the tomorrows after that, certain of their worth - their virtue. But what profits a man or mer to gaze deep into a single future? The aims of mortals are narrow, far too narrow! To move forward is to ignore infinite angles in favor of one. It is the act of a beast or a child. The Clockwork God spurns vanity in the guise of courage. These explorers' travels only lead them farther from Tamriel Final. Anuvanna'si
-- The Truth in Sequence VII
Part IV - The Shadows
Azra Nightweilder was a Brilliant Mage who found that All Possibilities are showed by Shadows and By Manipulating The Very same Shadows he showed that all possibilties are actually passively manifesting
First Scroll of Shadow
... chosen to explore this relation of world to shadow, Azra was the first to realize that shadows were not a mere absence of light but a reflection of possible worlds created by forces in conflict. A light strikes a rock, and the shadow is a record of their clash, past, present and future.
Other conflicting forces produced less obvious shadows, fire and water, wind and rock, or nations at war.
With skill and patience, the shadows of all could be read, and patterns teased out, emphasized or eradicated.
Manipulating a shadow could, through contagion, manipulate the object or force which cast it.
Second Scroll of Shadow
... Azra attempted what had never been done before, manipulating his own shadow to such an extent that he instantiated and melded all possible Azras at the same time, crossing over from this singular existence to all the existences in shadow.
These Shadows Aka Possibilities Manifest as Adjacent places
appeared and drank from the excess. Grabbers from the Adjacent Place came into the world sideways, the slave talking having disrupted
-- 36 lessons of Vivec
this is confirmed when the Augur of Obscure Directly states that he would be something different in a different Adjacent Place
Why are you stuck in a crystal skull? "I'm not in the skull. I am the skull—at least here on Nirn. Over in the Adjacent Place, I'm shaped like a throw-pillow. Imagine that! You look confused. It's just a trick of the light, mate. The skull's what you might call a manifestation."
-- Augur of Obscure
so this concludes the Mundus part
what we established for Mundus was
The Oceans are really complex , containing all of maths , Transliminal Waves and complex Quasi-Tones
The Earthbones are what makes the Laws of Physics
Infinities can be greater and smaller
Human eye limits Comprehension abilities
Stars are Portals but still act like Stars in Size , making Nebulaes and Providing The World with Energy
There are infinite Timelines
There are Multiple Temporal Dimensions
The Unstars is a way of saying the Word " Void "
There is an Unlimited Number of Shadows and thus possibilities
Infinite possibilities exist as infinite Adjacent places
Gods are Conceptual Embodiments
Part V - How Alduin Scales to all of It
even low tier Gods such as the Celestial passive presence can emit too much energy for Mundus and thus need to come wirh avatars and seals
The Elder Scrolls Online
Alduin is obviously much above the celestials , I will prove if you ask me too , meaning Alduin's inferior can destroy a Dimension with infinite Tinelines , infinite sized planes ( the god planes ) and all possibilities manifesting by passive presence .
even Et Ada avatars are implied to be far above The Celestials , to the point they can't even compete with them
Vestige:Who's competing in these games?
Aspera Arena-Friend:The better question might be who isn't competing. We have a fascinating mix of proven warriors and brutal killers. They can fight and that's all that matters.
And I have it on good authority that there are some surprises in store. So exciting!
Vestige:How can an arena run with everything going on in this region?
Aspera Arena-Friend:You mean that nonsense with the Serpent and those other foolish Celestials? What goes on outside, remains outside.
Vestige:That's a pretty dangerous assumption.
Aspera Arena-Friend:What? Oh, sorry. I was just imagining the possibilities.
I wonder what would happen if the Serpent and the other Celestials came here to compete? I'm almost tempted to invite them. Almost.
Vestige:Are you participating?
Aspera Arena-Friend:Compete? Me? And how would that be fair? No, I don't participate.
But I'll be watching you and your group closely. I can promise you that.
Part VI - To Be A God
Gods In Elder Scrolls have a very complex relation with time so do lesser gods such as the Hist , they view time from an interior perspective , to them past/present and future were all happening at once
the Dwemer:
"I have no idea what happened to the Dwemer. I have no sense of them in the timeless divine world outside of mortal time. And, in fact, if I did believe they existed, I would be in no hurry to make contact with them. They may, with some justice, hold the Dunmer race responsible for their fate. My intuition is that they are gone forever -- and that is perfectly fine with me."
to be a god:
"It is like being a juggler. Things are always moving, and you learn to know where they are without even thinking about it. Only there are many, many things moving. And sometimes, like any juggler, you drop something. I'm afraid it has become a lot more a matter of dropping things lately. There's too much to do, and not enough time, and I'm losing my touch. Perhaps I'm growing old."
"It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it."
"It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once."
the Hist went even deeper regarding this topic that Vivec did , they are stated to see all of time as an illusion and the linear progression as a limitation on human mind
To his people - at least the most traditional ones - birth and death were the same moment. All of life all of history was one moment, and only by ignoring most of its content could one create the illusion of linear progression. The agreement to see things in this limited way was what other peoples called 'time'.
The Infernal City
The concept Imperials called 'time' did not have a word in his native language. In fact, the hardest part of learning the language of the Imperials was that they made their verbs different to indicate when something had happened, as if the most important thing in the world was to establish a linear sequence of events, as if doing so somehow explained things better than holistic apprehension.
- The Infernal City
Each day the same day, each year the same year
- The Infernal City
Due to the nature to time and how they are beyond the linear progression , the same linear progression that defines concepts such as speed , I will argue that they are Irrelevant tiers in speed because conventional laws of speed don't apply to the gods in TES
there is much more , but this should more then do for now , also sheogorath > Alduin.
@cosmoman: How are you calling the scaling chains of a verse you never read Laughable? Multiversal+ is fodder to Celestials who destroy Multiverses with infinite Timelines and all manifesting possibilities with multiple infinite planets via merely existing, so I don't see how your " feats " are going to change anything in the context of the battle , you are welcome to debate me on TES as long as you do it civilfully
Part I - Nirn
Nirn , is in simple terms , a Finite Ball of Matter and Magic that works together to make a planet
What is Nirn?
Nirn (Ehnofex [sic] [Do not change this to Ehlnofex. This misspelled word is how it officially appears.] for 'Arena') is a finite ball of matter and magic made from all of the god planets at the beginning of time, when Lorkhan tricked/convinced/forced the gods to create the mortal plane. Nirn is the mortal plane and the mortal planet, which is the same thing. Its creation upset the cosmic balance; now all souls (especially the Aedra-Daedra/Gods-Demons) have a vested interest in Nirn (especially its starry heart, Tamriel).
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Nirn though , is a very complex Planet , for example the Water isn't actually water…..but the Memories of the Dead
Did You Know: Water is composed of memory? When a mortal dies, his or her memories become water, and in this way all of the memories of Tamriel's history are stored within its waters. https://t.co/tG5UpSjGpJ
this is Supported by the Augur of Obscure explaining that The Water has Transliminal Tones .
If I take you out of that box, will you help me find these time breaches? "I'm actually quite comfortable here, mate. Cozy accomodations, the transliminal tones of the ocean waves, gangly meat-brains to mock. But I guess I should be going. These Elves plan to sell me! Can you imagine? I'll help you. On one condition."
-- Augur of Obscure , Elder Scrolls Online
What are Transliminal Tones?
Transliminality (literally, "going beyond the threshold") was a concept introduced by the parapsychologist Michael Thalbourne, an Australian psychologist who was based at the University of Adelaide. It is defined as a hypersensitivity to psychological material (imagery, ideation, affect, and perception) originating in (a) the unconscious, and/or (b) the external environment (Thalbourne & Maltby, 2008). High degrees of this trait have been shown by Thalbourne to be associated with increased tendency to mystical experience, greater creativity, and greater belief in the paranormal, but Thalbourne has also found evidence that transliminality may be positively correlated with psychoticism. He has published articles on transliminality in journals on parapsychology and psychology.
-- Wikipedia
The Existence Of Transliminal Tones Furthur Supports The Memories thing but Let's Go even furthur .
Its said that the Oceans of Nirn , literally holds All Inverse Number Forms which would be Infinite to a high degree ( considering that any Two Numbers have infinite Numbers between them due to the workings of Decimals )
Also a statement about how it can be comprehended in Three Dimensions and even higher , making even the oceans Higher Dimensional
"A breach near the sea! I do love the ocean. It's a shame you can only see in three dimensions. All the quasi-tones and inverse number-forms .... Actually, I take it back—your meat-brain would explode if you saw this."
-- Augur of Obscure
The Complexity of The Oceans do not End here Though , to move through oceans On Nirn is to Move through Time
Tamriel is the present. It is literally the center of time.
Akavir is the East and it is in the future.
Hammerfell is to the West and is in the past.
Traveling from west to east means more than taking time to sail, it means sailing across time.
Atmora to the North is frozen in time. As such, it didn't really exist at all.
Aldmeris to the South is** outside of time**. As such, it didn't really exist at all.
The moons? Now they're really weird when it comes to time.
It's linear. It follows a line.
The Line, if you get me
- Michael Kirkbride
so that shows us that Nirn has really really complex Oceanic Mechanics and Water in General
Part II - Spatiality
What is The Space , The Stars , The Sky and The Shooting Stars?
in simple words , the Stars are Holes in the Sky made by Magnus and The Magne Ge During their Retreat from Mundus after Being betrayed from Lorkhan
What is the sun?
Magnus is the sun, the largest hole in Oblivion, and the gateway to magic. Magnus was present at the creation of the mortal plane, and, in fact, was its architect (Lorkhan was its advocate and inspiration). Prehistoric (before ME2500, startyear) Nirn was a magical place, and highly unstable to the first mortals. Magnus then left, some say in disgust, and Oblivion filled in the void with the Void. His escape was not easy, and tatters of Magnus remain in the firmament as stars.
What are stars?
The stars are the bridges to Aetherius, the magic plane. They are perceived as holes on the inside surface of space. Because they are on the inside of a sphere, all stars are equidistant from Nirn. Larger stars, therefore, are not closer to the mortal plane, they are just larger tears in Oblivion. The largest tear in Oblivion is Magnus, the sun
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
The Stars are the Source of all Magic as they are The Links To Aetherius
Aetherius is the only place that have been explained as The Source Of All Magic/Magicka
The stars are our links to the plane of Aetherius, the source of all magical power, and therefore, light from the stars is the most potent and exalted of all magical powers
Girnalin: "They are Aetherius. Rather, the sun and stars are holes pierced in the wall of night by Magnus - and other spirits - seeking to escape Nirn."
"These holes permit Aetherius' light to enter our world. From theirs to ours does Magicka trickle."
-- Elder Scrolls Online
The Space and The Sky , is simply an interpretation of the changing sides
What is space?
Space is the interpretation of Oblivion, which is black and empty and surrounds the mortal plane. Space is infinite, but it acts just like a planet, in that Oblivion is 'surrounded' by Aetherius. You can see Aetherius by the stars
-- Michael Kirkbride 1999
What is the sky?
The sky is another visual phenomenon caused by mortal mental stress, the night sky in particular. The sky is as impossible as planets; in essence, when you look into the sky, 'you look outside the material plane'. At night, Nirn is surrounded by Oblivion. The day sky is the multicolored elemental cloak of Magnus the sun. It changes colors as elemental influences rise and fall. Thus, when one looks at the day sky, they see into the raiments of Aetherius, and stare at magic.
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Shooting stars? special Magical Matter that are for some unknown reason send to the Mortal Plane from Aetherius
What are shooting stars, then?
A misnomer. Shooting stars are bits of matter and magic, either from Oblivion or Aetherius, that sometimes move through the cosmos. The largest shooting stars are really planets with independent orbits, like Baan Dar the Rogue Plane.
-- Michael Kirkbride , 1999
Part III - The Timelines
There are Like…. Two to three Temporal Dimension In Mundus alone
"“You look to your left, you see one way. You look to your right, you see another. But neither is any harder than the opposite. But the Elder Scrolls... they look left and right in the stream of time. The future and past are as one: Sometimes they even look up. What do they see then? What if they dive in? Then the madness begins."
-- From Septimus Signus:
Here he describes how the scrolls can look left and right in time (the future and the past), but he goes on to say that they can also look up and down which would be another axis or dimension of time.
" It would take a month to explain to you how that very question doesn't even make sense. The Scrolls exist here, with us, but also beyond and beneath. Before and after. "
-- Urag gro-Shub: "
and there are infinite Timelines/futures as to move on one future is to ignore an infinite futures
The Divine Metronome calls the first motion "The Motion of Lines." Line-motion is the motion of simple minds - the motion of weak wills and scholars' vanity. "Forward!" it cries! Forward to the fruits of cheap ambition. Forward to the promise of everlasting kingdoms. Forward to the mirage that the sages call "progress." These misguided pioneers venture out into their wild tomorrows, and the tomorrows after that, certain of their worth - their virtue. But what profits a man or mer to gaze deep into a single future? The aims of mortals are narrow, far too narrow! To move forward is to ignore infinite angles in favor of one. It is the act of a beast or a child. The Clockwork God spurns vanity in the guise of courage. These explorers' travels only lead them farther from Tamriel Final. Anuvanna'si
-- The Truth in Sequence VII
Part IV - The Shadows
Azra Nightweilder was a Brilliant Mage who found that All Possibilities are showed by Shadows and By Manipulating The Very same Shadows he showed that all possibilties are actually passively manifesting
First Scroll of Shadow
... chosen to explore this relation of world to shadow, Azra was the first to realize that shadows were not a mere absence of light but a reflection of possible worlds created by forces in conflict. A light strikes a rock, and the shadow is a record of their clash, past, present and future.
Other conflicting forces produced less obvious shadows, fire and water, wind and rock, or nations at war.
With skill and patience, the shadows of all could be read, and patterns teased out, emphasized or eradicated.
Manipulating a shadow could, through contagion, manipulate the object or force which cast it.
Second Scroll of Shadow
... Azra attempted what had never been done before, manipulating his own shadow to such an extent that he instantiated and melded all possible Azras at the same time, crossing over from this singular existence to all the existences in shadow.
These Shadows Aka Possibilities Manifest as Adjacent places
appeared and drank from the excess. Grabbers from the Adjacent Place came into the world sideways, the slave talking having disrupted
-- 36 lessons of Vivec
this is confirmed when the Augur of Obscure Directly states that he would be something different in a different Adjacent Place
Why are you stuck in a crystal skull? "I'm not in the skull. I am the skull—at least here on Nirn. Over in the Adjacent Place, I'm shaped like a throw-pillow. Imagine that! You look confused. It's just a trick of the light, mate. The skull's what you might call a manifestation."
-- Augur of Obscure
so this concludes the Mundus part
what we established for Mundus was
The Oceans are really complex , containing all of maths , Transliminal Waves and complex Quasi-Tones
The Earthbones are what makes the Laws of Physics
Infinities can be greater and smaller
Human eye limits Comprehension abilities
Stars are Portals but still act like Stars in Size , making Nebulaes and Providing The World with Energy
There are infinite Timelines
There are Multiple Temporal Dimensions
The Unstars is a way of saying the Word " Void "
There is an Unlimited Number of Shadows and thus possibilities
Infinite possibilities exist as infinite Adjacent places
Gods are Conceptual Embodiments
Part V - How Alduin Scales to all of It
even low tier Gods such as the Celestial passive presence can emit too much energy for Mundus and thus need to come wirh avatars and seals
The Elder Scrolls Online
Alduin is obviously much above the celestials , I will prove if you ask me too , meaning Alduin's inferior can destroy a Dimension with infinite Tinelines , infinite sized planes ( the god planes ) and all possibilities manifesting by passive presence .
even Et Ada avatars are implied to be far above The Celestials , to the point they can't even compete with them
Vestige:Who's competing in these games?
Aspera Arena-Friend:The better question might be who isn't competing. We have a fascinating mix of proven warriors and brutal killers. They can fight and that's all that matters.
And I have it on good authority that there are some surprises in store. So exciting!
Vestige:How can an arena run with everything going on in this region?
Aspera Arena-Friend:You mean that nonsense with the Serpent and those other foolish Celestials? What goes on outside, remains outside.
Vestige:That's a pretty dangerous assumption.
Aspera Arena-Friend:What? Oh, sorry. I was just imagining the possibilities.
I wonder what would happen if the Serpent and the other Celestials came here to compete? I'm almost tempted to invite them. Almost.
Vestige:Are you participating?
Aspera Arena-Friend:Compete? Me? And how would that be fair? No, I don't participate.
But I'll be watching you and your group closely. I can promise you that.
Part VI - To Be A God
Gods In Elder Scrolls have a very complex relation with time so do lesser gods such as the Hist , they view time from an interior perspective , to them past/present and future were all happening at once
the Dwemer:
"I have no idea what happened to the Dwemer. I have no sense of them in the timeless divine world outside of mortal time. And, in fact, if I did believe they existed, I would be in no hurry to make contact with them. They may, with some justice, hold the Dunmer race responsible for their fate. My intuition is that they are gone forever -- and that is perfectly fine with me."
to be a god:
"It is like being a juggler. Things are always moving, and you learn to know where they are without even thinking about it. Only there are many, many things moving. And sometimes, like any juggler, you drop something. I'm afraid it has become a lot more a matter of dropping things lately. There's too much to do, and not enough time, and I'm losing my touch. Perhaps I'm growing old."
"It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it."
"It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once."
the Hist went even deeper regarding this topic that Vivec did , they are stated to see all of time as an illusion and the linear progression as a limitation on human mind
To his people - at least the most traditional ones - birth and death were the same moment. All of life all of history was one moment, and only by ignoring most of its content could one create the illusion of linear progression. The agreement to see things in this limited way was what other peoples called 'time'.
The Infernal City
The concept Imperials called 'time' did not have a word in his native language. In fact, the hardest part of learning the language of the Imperials was that they made their verbs different to indicate when something had happened, as if the most important thing in the world was to establish a linear sequence of events, as if doing so somehow explained things better than holistic apprehension.
- The Infernal City
Each day the same day, each year the same year
- The Infernal City
Due to the nature to time and how they are beyond the linear progression , the same linear progression that defines concepts such as speed , I will argue that they are Irrelevant tiers in speed because conventional laws of speed don't apply to the gods in TES
there is much more , but this should more then do for now , also sheogorath >(>>>) Alduin.
That was a very detailed response, i have to respect that (no idea what a TES is, sorry man).
OT: Scaling without feats is..... not my forte, do you have any scans of Universes being destroyed by lesser beings in the verse? Maybe i missed it in the spoiler, very possible. If we're going just by scaling:
Emperor Joker was destroying the infinite realities
Emperor Joker was destroying the timelines associated with those realities
Emperor Joker was destroying the infinite Hell dimensions
This is not including the ALE, which can take over people who are multiversal themselves.
Eating Mundus, which in itself is enough to put in a good fight with Emperor Joker at worst (given what I see in this thread) isn't a feat?
Sheogorath > Alduin > Dagoth Ur > ALMSIVI >>>> Four Celestial Guardians >>>> Single Celestial Guardian > damaged Apex Stone >/= eating or destruction of Mundus
This scaling is not because we just say that and want the characters to scale that way, but because they actually do so in TES universe itself. This scaling is valid.
@cosmoman: You literally have everything in spoilers. Did you read the post at all?
Edit:
What are planets?
The planets are the gods and the planes of the gods, which is the same thing. That they appear as spherical heavenly bodies is a visual phenomena caused by mortal mental stress. Since each plane(t) is an infinite mass of infinite size, as yet surrounded by the Void of Oblivion, the mortal eye registers them as bubbles within a space. Planets are magical and impossible. The eight planets correspond to the Eight Divines. They are all present on the Dwarven Orrery, along with the mortal planet, Nirn.
@cosmoman: The Celestial Guardians emit such great power that their mere presence can destroy a Mundus, and they should be more powerful than the Apex Stones, which are also capable of destroying an entire Mundus.
Nirn itself has infinite timelines, infinite alternate realities, and infinite other versions of self (shadows). Even if shadows were not taken into account, Nirn would be a multidimensional construction on the level of the infinite set of the infinite multiverses. And at worst, Nirn would certainly be a construct at the level of the infinite multiverse
Comparing Nirn to Mundus is like comparing the Tree of Knowledge from SCP to DC cosmology.
That was a very detailed response, i have to respect that (no idea what a TES is).
TES is a short form for the Elder Scrolls.
OT: Scaling without feats is..... not my forte, do you have any scans of Universes being destroyed by lesser beings in the verse? Maybe i missed it in the spoiler, very possible.
well Elder Scrolls is a verse in similar vain as say Lovecraft , its mostly just text , the mainline games on the other hand , often are held back in scale and such by a massive account due to Game Engines but the lore is confirmed to take precedence over the Mainline games per Elder Scrolls Novel writer Greg Keys , if You don't like verses based mostly on statements and scaling via just text rather then pure visual feats , then I don't think much can be done regarding your approach toward Elder Scrolls , I cannot blame your approach but it does not become compatible with the verse in context.
If we're going just by scaling:
Emperor Joker was destroying the infinite realities (Saturnus)
Emperor Joker was destroying the timelines associated with those realities (Spectre)
Emperor Joker was destroying the infinite Hell dimensions (Saturnus)
This is not including the ALE, which can take over people who are multiversal themselves (Spectre/Phantom Stranger)
While I see that but I don't see how thats above Mundus busting
as the post explains infinite timelines do exist in Mundus
All possible worlds are exist and possibilities are usually really high
there are infinite sized dimensions such as the planes of the Et Ada
I just am not seeing how its one sided toward joker , at all.
The daedric princes aren't packing much power as far as i can tell they are all contained inside a dimension called oblivion which is stated to be infinite in size tho inside it is just a empty plane of rocks and red sky anyway this is no different than a single universe in DC which is also infinite in size. A high tier prince like mehrunes dagon went thru a great deal to cross a dimension from his realm to a cyrodilic city his true form was shown no bigger than a castle. Ejoker has 99% of mxy power on top of ale which can manipualte the source itself. Sheogorath gets onehsot.
Right above this post you have a mountain of text explaining at least in part how big is the smallest construct in TES, and then you compare ONE infinite universe to Oblivion? Lmao
You literally have everything in spoilers. Did you read the post at all?
Edit:
What are planets?
The planets are the gods and the planes of the gods, which is the same thing. That they appear as spherical heavenly bodies is a visual phenomena caused by mortal mental stress. Since each plane(t) is an infinite mass of infinite size, as yet surrounded by the Void of Oblivion, the mortal eye registers them as bubbles within a space. Planets are magical and impossible. The eight planets correspond to the Eight Divines. They are all present on the Dwarven Orrery, along with the mortal planet, Nirn.
Bruh, scaling is not a feat. I laid out the feats for you of universe busting, that's why i asked. Scaling is ok in the absence of feats, those spoilers were scaling.
That planet explanation is a bit hard to swallow. I get the concept (infinite sized domain of infinite mass) but it just sounds like flowery language. I guess the weapons are Universe busting? At least one? For such an expansive realm i need at least one Universe busting weapon.
The Celestial Guardians emit such great power that their mere presence can destroy a Mundus, and they should be more powerful than the Apex Stones, which are also capable of destroying an entire Mundus.
Nirn itself has infinite timelines, infinite alternate realities, and infinite other versions of self (shadows). Even if shadows were not taken into account, Nirn would be a multidimensional construction on the level of the infinite set of the infinite multiverses. And at worst, Nirn would certainly be a construct at the level of the infinite multiverse
Comparing Nirn to Mundus is like comparing the Tree of Knowledge from SCP to DC cosmology.
There is no comparison
So they can destroy an infinite planet of infinite mass. Basically a God planet of DC (New Genesis makes Earth a microbe, and New god God Universes make nornal DC Universes microbes) As stated before, A god Dimension was one of many dimensions being destroyed by Joker.
How has Nirn interacted with Sheo? Only curiousity, because infinite multiversal is pretty powerful. Now THAT is impressive.
SCP wank is overblown, when Great darkness can infinite multiversal Omniverse bust just by waking up. DC cosmology utterly dwarfs most high tiers, I'm still not convinced that this Universe is any exception.
Mundus is not a planet. Mundus includes the cosmos, space, planets, moons, stars, sky, space, shooting stars, sun (Magnus), etc. It's all literally infinite, plus there are infinities higher and lower.
For example, higher infinity is space in Mundus because space contains everything else that Mundus contains, and Mundus itself contains space.
Add to that infinite timelines, infinite alternate realities, and infinite possibilities manifesting in Mundus as adjacent places, which means that every such possibility occurs in Mundus and increases the size of Mundus.
Each higher et'Ada sees not only Nirn but all of Mundus as a mortal and infinitely limited plan. Sheogorath is one of the most powerful members of the higher et'Ada.
Mundus is not a planet. Mundus includes the cosmos, space, planets, moons, stars, sky, space, shooting stars, sun (Magnus), etc. It's all literally infinite, plus there are infinities higher and lower.
For example, higher infinity is space in Mundus because space contains everything else that Mundus contains, and Mundus itself contains space.
Add to that infinite timelines, infinite alternate realities, and infinite possibilities manifesting in Mundus as adjacent places, which means that every such possibility occurs in Mundus and increases the size of Mundus.
Mundus = The infinite universe. With infinite sized planets & infinite stars....... do basically like a God Universe of DC.
Hmm... interesting. That goes over my head a bit.
Infinite timeline & realities. Good description. Mundus is definitely a God space, are you familiar with the God universes of DC?
So he dwarfs Mundus, even destroyed it? Destroyed infinite possibilities + Infinite shadow realms + Infinite sized realm? I get all that?
The mere fact that airplanes (t) are infinite would classify them as infinite universes. But remember that there are shadows and infinite possibilities within Mundus. This means that these airplanes (t) have at least their infinite versions (shadows), which would make any such single airplane a structure at the level of the infinite multiverse. And that's just taking into account the shadows. There are 9 such planets, moons behave like planets and IIRC there are two moons in Mundus.
So in Mundus there is Nirn, which itself is at least an infinite set of infinite multiverses (infinite timelines and shadows, where shadows also AFAIK should interact with these timelines. would cause each such timeline to have at least its alternative versions, but I will not delve into this). Mundus too has within it every planet and moons that are at least infinite multiverses, or rather, infinite collections of infinite multiverses.
Importantly, for planets and moons this size is literal, while Nirn is that size because it has timelines, shadows, etc.
Space is infinitely greater than anything it encompasses because ... it encompasses it all. Space contains many infinities that extend into infinite other versions (shadows) and infinite possibilities. Mundus contains space within itself, being itself higher infinity than space.
All this can be destroyed by the presence of one Celestial Guardian who are fodders for the higher et'Ada, and Sheogorath is one of the strongest among the higher et'Ada.
Mundus is not a planet. Mundus includes the cosmos, space, planets, moons, stars, sky, space, shooting stars, sun (Magnus), etc. It's all literally infinite, plus there are infinities higher and lower.
For example, higher infinity is space in Mundus because space contains everything else that Mundus contains, and Mundus itself contains space.
Add to that infinite timelines, infinite alternate realities, and infinite possibilities manifesting in Mundus as adjacent places, which means that every such possibility occurs in Mundus and increases the size of Mundus.
Mundus = The infinite universe. With infinite sized planets & infinite stars....... do basically like a God Universe of DC.
Hmm... interesting. That goes over my head a bit.
Infinite timeline & realities. Good description. Mundus is definitely a God space, are you familiar with the God universes of DC?
So he dwarfs Mundus, even destroyed it? Destroyed infinite possibilities + Infinite shadow realms + Infinite sized realm? I get all that?
Sheogorath is above all possibilities and impossibilities. This alone makes the tes hierarchy above that of composite SCP and fanfiction due to the blatant emr. And there is trivialism involved to tes of course aswell.
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