She Hulk & Red Hulk vs Jane Foster & Captain Marvel

• I'm not disputing that she can or cannot access binary, but I am saying that Carol explicitly said that she oneshot thor because when she took the opening of his distraction, she redirected all the energy Thor was cosntantly supercharging her with. The oneshot was a matter of her using Thor's own power against him along with her power, not just her power alone.
• I'd say she could put the hurt on rulk as binary but I also don't think she can sustain it for long enough to put him down.
• She can certainly take a beating but only for so long and I'd give she hulk the edge in her match.
• As far as doc green, they fought twice. (Hulk (2014) #10 and 14-15. Rulk beat the tar out of him and broke his arm once while Doc Green was trying to get samples from him, then Doc Green learned Kung Fu from Iron Fist and paid deadpool to neutralize his passive energy draining, and then goes to fight Rulk. Rulk actually KO'es him and turns him back to banner while he's flying into the clouds, but banner manages to wake Doc Green up and finally using Kung fu and letting loose his anger Doc Green beats him.
• As far as Thor, they fought 4 times that I can think of. Their first fight had Rulk use draining and tactics to beat up OF thor, their next fight the next issue had bloodlusted OF Thor come back and beat up rulk a little bit before savage hulk interrupts. It's unclear but Rulk admits that Thor had him on the ropes and could have killed him if savage didn't interrupt. Their next fight is Gamma amped Thor and he beats on rulk a little bit, but it isn't really a loss for rulk because Thor was amped and Rulk was struggling after having the excess energy he had drained siphoned off of him by the Intelligencia. Their 4th fight in Jeff Parker's run had Thor beat up rulk while he was trying to talk him down and then Rulk gets tired and they each trade a punch or two before banner intervenes. Thor has never KO'ed him and in the two fights where at least an edge can be given because they're both actively fighting Rulk wins then Thor wins.
• Rulk has impressive quantifiable feats such as causing a 10.0 earthquake and higher with his hits, destroying a comet that threatened earth, no-selling jumping from the moon to earth, shaking a portion of canada with his jumps, and triggering the san andreas fault and causing San fransisco to fall in the ocean in his fight against Savage hulk, and triggering it again against colossonaut with a statement thrown out about if they fought to their full potential they could split the planet to it's core.

Less a retcon and more the same writer that had banner say he lost it had Green Scar reveal later on that Banner was lying for Rulk's safety as continued draining would leave him stuck in Red Hulk form.

@battle123axe Have said it all. I don't see Carol doing any damage to Redhulk. Red hulk is much stronger and a better tactician than Carol

Red hulk has knocked out Thor too and has also defeated hulk. If i recall he defeated world breaker hulk by draining him. Red hulk still solos.

@ecstaticgrace said:

@battle123axe:

• I'm not disputing that she can or cannot access binary, but I am saying that Carol explicitly said that she oneshot thor because when she took the opening of his distraction, she redirected all the energy Thor was cosntantly supercharging her with. The oneshot was a matter of her using Thor's own power against him along with her power, not just her power alone.

I remember in the She Hulk fight she said she was absorbing energy from Thor throughout the fight but I don’t remember it ever being said she redirected Thor’s own energy at him? I don’t ever remember it saying she used Thor’s own power to knock him out.

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It honestly just sounds like you worded it in a way you preferred and kind of doesn’t completely match up. It not dishonest but it’s a loose interpretation of what happened

1.) It never says she used Thor’s own power to knock him out it just states she used the energy she was getting off him to win the fight IE: Binary (Which is what she won the fight using)

2.) Even then the scans suggest they were fighting for hours. I wouldn’t call a fight you were in thats going back and forth between the two characters as one having oneshot the other.

3.) She absorbed Thor’s Power I’m not denying that my point was that power was used to go into the Binary transformation and end the fight. It wasnt necessarily redirecting his attack it was the power of the form

• I'd say she could put the hurt on rulk as binary but I also don't think she can sustain it for long enough to put him down.

Plot wise she should always have access to energy. Given the fact she absorbs energy from all around her. it’s hella theoretical at this point since we never really gotten an explanation on how it works though. I assume she doesn’t just always go into it because she’s burning off more energy than she can absorb so it requires her to have

A.) A constant source of incoming energy

B.) Alot of energy in her energy reserves

I guess the argument would be though would having Jane and She-Hulk on the battlefield give her that constant energy, could she find other sources, or could she stay in the form long enough to get a possible win.

• She can certainly take a beating but only for so long and I'd give she hulk the edge in her match.

Given how the fight was depicted in Carol’s own comic I’d agree with you. Especially in round one where the flyers are grounded.

As far as doc green, they fought twice. (Hulk (2014) #10

and 14-15. Rulk beat the tar out of him and broke his arm once while Doc Green was trying to get samples from him, then Doc Green learned Kung Fu from Iron Fist and paid deadpool to neutralize his passive energy draining, and then goes to fight Rulk. Rulk actually KO'es him and turns him back to banner while he's flying into the clouds, but banner manages to wake Doc Green up and finally using Kung fu and letting loose his anger Doc Green beats him.

I dont know about the context but I’ve seen a scene with Doc Green breaking Rulk’s arm.

Regardless I think relying on Doc Green to scale this is faulty

• As far as Thor, they fought 4 times that I can think of. Their first fight had Rulk use draining and tactics to beat up OF thor, their next fight the next issue had bloodlusted OF Thor come back and beat up rulk a little bit before savage hulk interrupts. It's unclear but Rulk admits that Thor had him on the ropes and could have killed him if savage didn't interrupt. Their next fight is Gamma amped Thor and he beats on rulk a little bit, but it isn't really a loss for rulk because Thor was amped and Rulk was struggling after having the excess energy he had drained siphoned off of him by the Intelligencia. Their 4th fight in Jeff Parker's run had Thor beat up rulk while he was trying to talk him down and then Rulk gets tired and they each trade a punch or two before banner intervenes. Thor has never KO'ed him and in the two fights where at least an edge can be given because they're both actively fighting Rulk wins then Thor wins.

Ok I see. Sounds like using Thor than as a point is faulty as well.

• Rulk has impressive quantifiable feats such as causing a 10.0 earthquake and higher with his hits, destroying a comet that threatened earth, no-selling jumping from the moon to earth, shaking a portion of canada with his jumps, and triggering the san andreas fault and causing San fransisco to fall in the ocean in his fight against Savage hulk, with a statement thrown out about if they fought to their full potential they could split the planet to it's core.

That is pretty impressive I’d say Carol’s feats should be up there as well.

Carol has her famous destabilizing a planet causing it to be destroyed by blasting the Brood Queen, destroying a meteor that threatened earth, punching Rogue from the X-Mansion to the moon. Destroying what was once the city of the Inhumans with a casual energy blast in Binary. Triggering an avalanche by throwing a mutant into it. She also has some city blast absorption feats.

I don’t have it on the respect thread I made for her explaining why the meteor feat was impressive but it doesn't take much for a asteroid to be considered extinction level to our planet

Destroys a Giant sized meteor to bits. Note: Mass, Reference

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I remember in the She Hulk fight she said she was absorbing energy from Thor throughout the fight but I don’t remember it ever being said she redirected Thor’s own energy at him? I don’t ever remember it saying she used Thor’s own power to knock him out.

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It honestly just sounds like you worded it in a way you preferred and kind of doesn’t completely match up. It not dishonest but it’s a loose interpretation of what happened

1.) It never says she used Thor’s own power to knock him out it just states she used the energy she was getting off him to win the fight IE: Binary (Which is what she won the fight using)

2.) Even then the scans suggest they were fighting for hours. I wouldn’t call a fight you were in thats going back and forth between the two characters as one having oneshot the other.

3.) She absorbed Thor’s Power I’m not denying that my point was that power was used to go into the Binary transformation and end the fight. It wasnt necessarily redirecting his attack it was the power of the form

I mean it clearly says that he was charging her with energy and said energy was enough to take him out when he had the opening. We both know that under Thompson she didn't need energy to go binary so it's not like she needed Thor to charge her constantly for hours to access her binary form, she arguably went binary against iron man with one blast. It's almost undeniable that his energy plaid a large role in it considering two things: One, the energy in the "he kept charging me with energy" is the "it" in the "it was enough to take him out". Secondly, she attributes that to her victory and says that she has no such energy to utilize against she hulk (other than the fact that she was overcharged off of BP's gun).

The fight continued for hours because Thor was empowering her further and further as the fight went on, and she used all that energy to take him out. She doesn't say that the energy was enough to make her go binary, she says that it was enough to take him out. Absorbing energy and using it against her foe is a consistent Carol tactic, and that's exactly what she did against Thor.

Plot wise she should always have access to energy. Given the fact she absorbs energy from all around her. it’s hella theoretical at this point since we never really gotten an explanation on how it works though. I assume she doesn’t just always go into it because she’s burning off more energy than she can absorb so it requires her to have

A.) A constant source of incoming energy

B.) Alot of energy in her energy reserves

I guess the argument would be though would having Jane and She-Hulk on the battlefield give her that constant energy, could she find other sources, or could she stay in the form long enough to get a possible win.

It's as you said, very theoretical. The idea that she needs energy to go binary is consistent, but the idea that she needs thor to charge her for hours for that isn't and is even less consistent under Thompson. Blue marvel made her go binary with a singular blast and she's gone binary off of her ship exploding in Hickman's avengers run. Proximity to a white hole forces her into binary because they're related iirc. Also, Jane and she hulk also works great for Red Hulk for absorbing energy.

I dont know about the context but I’ve seen a scene with Doc Green breaking Rulk’s arm.

Again, he channeled his anger and had prepped specifically against Red hulk, this is the final defeat I referred to. Red Hulk has also casually broken various hulk incarnations' arms on two separate occasions IIRC.

I'm of the opinion that current carol is a very prolific energy manipulator and that's what makes her a thor level threat nowadays but her energy manipulation is more or less countered by Rulk's and his physicals are better to the point that she's on the losing end.

Her possible saving grace is Binary by absorbing energy from the other fight, but Rulk would also be supercharged too so it's the same predicament. There's an argument that he could drain energy off her energy blasts like she can drain off his heat if her energy blasts come from a cosmic source.

Ultimately, even if you think that Carol is powerful enough to secure a victory (and she is, I do think team one only wins 6/10), I also think Jen can win against Jane more often than not, so either way one of the girls is likely fighting a 2v1 and they can't win.

I mean Red hulk has taken Thor's bloodlusted energy blasts several times, plenty of attacks including unibeams and the like from a not holding back extremis and bleeding edge iron man, eyebeams from sentry and ikaris, MODOK who had just 3 shotted red she hulk, a mayan skyfather deity, and attacks from the P5 including one that sent him across the planet, attacks from a hyperpowered zzax, blasts from Omegex (a planetary threat). It's arguable that he could absorb some energy off her attacks as well. Jane has also never channeled the mother storm in combat and it's scale is unusable on an earth-bound fight against one opponent.

I think team two would win.

@ecstaticgrace said:

@battle123axe said:

@ecstaticgrace said:

@medulaoblaganda said:

@ecstaticgrace said:

@medulaoblaganda said:

@ecstaticgrace said:

@medulaoblaganda said:

@cruelrain said:

@battle123axe said:

@ecstaticgrace: Iron Rulk is a different character.

Loeb Force isn't a thing, it's his ability to absorb energy which he stopped doing after loeb but still can do. R1 it's arguable he wouldn't but R2 he certainly would.

Would you say is absorbing power his better than Carol binary's form?

Yes its better than carols absorbing power to the point that when Absorbing man gained Red hulk ability to drain, he drain the hell out of Devil hulk but devil hulk drained him back. That's tells you the red hulk draining power and absorbing power is OP. Have you heard of Catherix Ray before? According to @ghostravage, he said Catherix Ray is by far the most successful and powerful device used on Hulk to drain him off his energy. The energy syphoned off Hulk in World War Hulk #5 was used in the creation of Red Hulk, which essentially means, Red Hulk is the living personification of the Cathexis Ray by using Hulk's energy projection which almost tore off the Eastern Seaboard. To deliver the relation between Red Hulk's syphoning powers and the Cathexis Ray's hype, let's cite Incredible Hulk #600.. Red Hulk managed to do what NO ONE has been able to do before, he absorbed all the Gamma Energy off Banner without killing him, let alone in 15 seconds... Hell, not even Silver Surfer has managed to perform such task. In simple words, yeah, the Cathexis Ray is awfully powerful as far as syphoning Hulk goes. He's responsible for taking Silver surfer powers. Currently, Red hulk can only drain opponents. I guess. He still has the power of draining. He'll drain Captain Marvel. All credit goes to @ghostravage

All of that sounds like a circular feat ending up being an antifeat or not a feat in actuality

”Character A’s energy absorbtion was so good he absorbed Character B but then Character B came back and absorbed Character A”

Thats what I read from your post.

Regardless,

1.) Carol isn’t a gamma character that feat doesn’t really illustrate Rulk’s ability to drain her

2.) Carol has energy absorbed characters like The Phoenix Force (Failed but still), Count Nefaria (An avengers team buster who is also a energy vampire), and The Worthy Skadi (Who teambusted a group of Avengers herself.

The only person where Binary came into play was the Phoenix Force but thats the Phoenix Force something way above anyone here and Carol still forcefully absorbed a large amount of it

@battle123axe Have said it all. I don't see Carol doing any damage to Redhulk. Red hulk is much stronger and a better tactician than Carol

If she can knock out Thor with her energy blast in Binary I don’t see how she couldn’t at the very least hurt Rulk..

Its not even just Thor either. There’s Xorn. (who could take hits from the Sentry), Magus (Adam Warlock villain and Avengers teambuster), Super Adaptoid, Sindr (Thor villain), and Count Nefaria to name some.

Even without scaling her casual energy blast in Binary

Energy: Destroys the ruins of New Arctilan

And then releasing all her energy she was capable of this

Energy: Destroys a world Note: Original instance

Which is why I’d argue she logically was able to do this

Knocks out Thor

Even her antimatter self was able to hurt a merged Silver Surfer with her photon blast. So the idea she couldn’t harm Rulk is major downplay on her end if not overplaying the Rulk.

Red hulk has knocked out Thor too and has also defeated hulk. If i recall he defeated world breaker hulk by draining him. Red hulk still solos.

She’s an energy manipulator as well. She’s not being taken down by draining with her feats atleast she shouldn’t be by the feats brought up. The stuff listed for his personal feats sound comparable to hers and Hulk has defeated Rulk likewise. Binary even never having fought Rulk. I do agree the Hulks win round 1 though. The highlighted part was her energy output which I havent even seen durability to show Rulk taking that kind of damage. Especially from someone like Jane who has that whole Mother Storm/Tempest thing.

I mean Red hulk has taken Thor's bloodlusted energy blasts several times, plenty of attacks including unibeams and the like from a not holding back extremis and bleeding edge iron man, eyebeams from sentry and ikaris, MODOK who had just 3 shotted red she hulk, a mayan skyfather deity, and attacks from the P5 including one that sent him across the planet, attacks from a hyperpowered zzax, blasts from Omegex (a planetary threat). It's arguable that he could absorb some energy off her attacks as well. Jane has also never channeled the mother storm in combat and it's scale is unusable on an earth-bound fight against one opponent.

Im sure Thor probably has feats comparable but to be safe does his (base Thor’s) energy blast match

1.) Destabilizing a planet by indirectly blasting someone with an energy attack

2.) Destroying what was once an Inhuman city that’s visible in the same shot you can see the curvature of the moon with a casual energy blast

3.) Destroying city sized ships (I’d have to find this feat again admittedly)

4.) Knocking out someone in his (Thor’s) own durability class

Does Extremis and Bleeding Edge Iron Man have feats like that?

Carol has fought characters labeled as planetary threats as well in her Brian Reed Ms Marvel Run

Ms Marvel vs The Brood Queen Note: She survived the destruction of her homeworld and Carol was only able to hurt her in Binary. Cru mentions her

She even fought Cru in the start of the series. And Binary > Energy Amped > Base Carol

In her base form she even took an attack from Phoenix Magik after being in a fight with Rogue and was just brought to her knees. On top of the fact of before the start of the event getting in a power struggle with the Phoenix Force.

She can’t control this so I’m not arguing it as something she’s going to use but I think it helps illustrate the fact of how Uber Binary is

Quasar issue 34 1992

Quasar states the vortex she creates is superior to his or “far more powerful”

X-Men unlimited issue 13 1998

I mean Thor's lightning has threatened to destroy the planet while having sex, heavily injured alter-ego, covered planetary distances a couple times, storms have blocked a beam that was going to straight destroy the planet, he's oneshotted himself when his lightning was redirected (so there is precedent for such a thing), channeled enough lighning to destroy the moon, welded a moon together, almost levelled a city, and cracked a dimensional shield.

Thor's lightning pretty handily outperforms Binary in any facet, and Thor fought Rulk under Jeph loeb and Jeff Parker and Loeb has given Ultimate thor some of his best feats while in the same comic Jeff Parker's thor fought Rulk, he destroyed a comet that was going to destroy the planet.

Also, surviving a planet exploding doesn't make you a planetary threat, as 99.99999% of the energy of the planet's explosion doesn't hit you. It's an impressive feat but not really planetary unless you survive the attack that destroyed the planet. Unless there's more proof than the Brood Queen's army threatening to wipe out humanity, something that destroys worlds like Omegex isn't on the same caliber as something that survives their destruction.

Red Hulk took a several page beatdown from 3 members of the P5 where they acknowledeged they couldn't put him down and blasted him halfway across the planet, from which he stood up and walked off.

@ecstaticgrace: Stuff like threatening time and space sounds cool but they aren't very quantifiable. Or sensible. Thor once pierced the dimensional veil by literally blowing very hard and closed a wormhole by brofisting Hercules. It happens a lot.

Has Carol ever threatened to split the Earth in half with her energy projection?

Threatened? Carol’s powers threatened the fabric of space and her energy blast actually resulted in the destruction of a world that’s above “threatening to destroy a planet”

He was destroying the planet while having sex. Then he stopped. Pretty simple. Damn near "split it in two".

Why is this impressive. It sounds like throwing around names and hyping Thor off it. What’s Alter-Ego done durability wise that makes hurting him so impressive?

Ego? The living planet comparable in size to Earth? The dude that consistently punts herald tiers like surfer and BRB? That guy?

Covering a planet in storms doesn’t equate to destroying a planet with the same output. It’s impressive in regards to scope don’t get me wrong but in terms of damage output it doesn’t tell us anything. Your making an implication of the level it’s at based on how far it reached.

I mean his singular lightning bolts have been visible against the curvature of a solar system sized ship and blasted a hole in it while dwarfing the USA sized asgardia, he's covered thanos' chest and got his attention with a lightning bolt when thanos was big enough to dwarf planets, his lightning bolt stretched out from a planet sized ship. Especially considering the potency his lightning bolts have casually shown in the past, i'm not seeing how that's not impressive.

Keywords are “was going” you Anti-Carol debators have given me more flack for providing more then theoretically destroying something. Yet I’m suppose to accept this as better when theres no indication it would of actually destroyed said planet or in the manner it would of done the feat.

"You anti-carol debaters"? Holy mother of ad-homeneim because I don't think Carol is the same level you do. Anyways idk where you get no indication but this seems pretty damn clear to me.

That’s actually pretty notable of a mention but then again Binary did the same thing to Thor with a onehanded energy blast. So using it to suggest Thor’s superiority in energy blast is still wonky.

Binary did the same to thor while supercharged off his own energy. Thor has oneshotted Hercules, Hulk, himself, young Gorr, Death seed sentry, BRB, harmed beigns that survived a supernova, vaporized secondary adamantium, caused Chaos king to scream, cracked sentry in half, etc.

Even taking the destabilizing a planet feat into account, Oneshotting Thor with a casual blast is far above destabilizing a planet and it makes sense that as she said, the energy he charged her up with was what she needed to take him out. I'm not discounting her durability but she couldn't have casually oneshot him on her own power.

I don’t know how to even scale that but I’d challenge it with generating a white hole vortex said way more powerul than Quasars that threatened the fabric of space

Odin at the peak of his power sealed off a realm from the world tree and Thor cracked the seal. Anyways, I only mentioned it because you brought up the unquantifiable white hole thing. Thor has done everything she has, and better too.

Binary actually did level a city. Which is better than “almost leveled a city”

Thor has demolished cities with his storms while fighting someone else lol.

Its hard to see how you proved that. When comparing feats. It just looks like you believe Thor’s feats are better because for the most part on your mentions they were suppose to do something they didn’t. Or off narration that’s ironically ignored for Carol

That's false equivalency. Carol's feat is clear cut, we thought her blast destroyed a planet, but it didn't, it destabilized it leading to it's destruction. Impressive, but not straight planetary. Thor's feat is also clear cut, he was going to do something or affected a planet several times and consciously stopped himself.

Carol has also destroyed an extinction level asteroid. It really doesn’t take much in regards to mass for a asteroid to reach extinction level. Im still not seeing how that’s better than indirectly destroying a world by blasting the Brood Queen

Extinction level ≠ planet destroying. Those comets were on their way to straight up destroy the planet. Both thor and red hulk destroyed them.

It’s a good thing The Brood Queen survived the attack that destroyed a planet than isn’t it.

From what you're describing it it sounds like Binary blasted her hard enough to destabilize the planet, and then she survived the planet exploding. She comes back years later and binary hurts her again. O.K.

This right here is where a lot of the irony in downplaying Carol’s feats come in. I don’t hype the idea to much that the Queen would of wiped out the planet. But it’s a statement that was in regards to the Queen’s Power which ironically is what a lot of the feats you provided for Thor. They’re statements on the power he’s either facing, the attack he’s countering or the power he’s unleashing. The irony is you put more stock into those statements despite the lack of them actually being shown to accomplish what they’re stated to be at. Yet toss aside stuff in reference to Carol or what she faces as nothing more than statements. No matter the quantity of said statements.

I mean I just read the statement as it is. You're going on a rant about me treating feats with two separate levels of clarity as different. You're acting like there's a massive quantity of statements when you brought like 2 about the same person lol. A beast capable of changing the face of the planet is nice, but how is it all comparable to a statement of what actually was happening until it was stopped, like Thor did? Or epithets based on accomplishments, like Omegex? A creature capable of changing the face of the planet is impressive sure, but that could easily mean that she would conquer it and overwhelm it's defenders, which is impressive sure but far from planetary. The brood queen has planetary durability, I have no problem accepting that because you proved it, but the statements of overall power are vastly lacking.

Pretty impressive feat in regards to scaling I won’t lie. It’s a cool moment but I don’t think we’d logically place Rulk at the level of even a singular P5 character let alone 3.

I mean it had more to do with his tenacity and damage soak than his threat level. Bit of a strawman there.

@ecstaticgrace: I have a quick question. Is Jane a factor in this fight? I don't know any feats for her, or how powerful she is, besides PIS that she defeated Mangog?

Team 2 > Team 1 > WBHulk

She Hulk in her giant form(but before the amp she received from the Celestial) was already stalemating Jane, with the amp well she clearly takes this.

Red Hulk shows Carol that Loebforce is much better than Thomsponforce.

@ecstaticgrace: Thank you very much! I appreciate you taking your time to EDUCATE me. XD

Yes and that Jen wasn't nearly as powerful as the one that exists now, also Jane isn't gonna use the Mother Storm here except maybe in round 2 but we shouldn't honestly ignore that power since it's a complete plot device that can take out Skyfather level beings.

If there is such a thing as Loebforce, there is definitely a Thompsonforce.

@ecstaticgrace: I noticed quite a large amount of respect threads commit not exist.

Yea the asspull plot device that's a one-shot move that came out of nowhere that she could theoretically take out any super hero with, but not much else though. Every super-hero holds back, that's nothing new there are several scans of Spider-man stating he holds back, that doesn't take away from the fact that the idea that Carol can go toe to toe with someone of Thors caliber is not a laughable thing that could only happen under very specific writers, Carol should be around Tony's level at best and nothing more, with Binary they can make her whatever they want since Binary just like any other power up is a plot device, but her regular self, she is nothing more than a high-end mid-tier at best, someone like Thing would beat her 10/10 times without BFR.

She wasn't amped from the start of the fight she only got progressively more amped as the fight went on, but that's the problem those attacks shouldn't have amped her, they should have taken her out, not to mention the physical blows that she can't absorb. Probably because not many characters go around de-stabilizing a planet, do you know how many abstract entities are out there that have never even busted a Moon? But realistically can destroy entire galaxies or universes if we scale them to others. Also de-stabilizing a planet is a tricky thing to quantify it could require a lot of effort or fairly little it's hard to say and depends on the planet itself. I mean it's Sentry and it's Bendis, in that same run under Bendis Snetrycouldn't hold back Ares together with WM.Yes users don't like the feat cause it's stupid, this shouldn't be a surprise to you, quite a lot of people found it stupid.

Well luckily Thompsonforce kicked in and Thor didn't end it there.

@ecstaticgrace: I am not talking about featless characters. I am talking about guys like In-Betweener for instance who has feats of going toe to toe with Galactus, altering reality and messing with the time but doesn't actually have a feat of blowing up a planet let alone anything larger than that, even though he should be perfectly capable of doing so. Which is why asking for specific feats that are very rare to begin with and are very hard to quantify is not a realistic expectation.

Every character i place on a certain tier i do so mainly through feats, i can consider them of that tier i can take into consideration other things outside feats like if a writer states them to be of certain level but i take those with a heavy grain of salt.

Superman Prime One Million has always been a joke on comicvine to most people apart from the guys that come to the forums after accumulating all their knowledge from watching youtube videos and fighting in the comment section.

Scaling in itself isn't the problem, relying entirely on scaling is however. Which is why that Spiderman thread is funny and is created specifically to provoke lilbroomstick who relies a lot on scaling Ironman to put him on a level he is not at, but at the end of the day the entire thread can be countered by posting feats of each character and Ironman has objectively better feats, which is why Peter isn't actually on Tony's level let alone above, how many times street tiers have survived a punch or a slap from Hulk you could scale them all to Thor+ level if we relied solely on crap like that but we dont because their feats don't match up with it.

One of the things people need to remember feats are number 1, they are the most important thing but they are no the only thing, we should look at multiple factors outside of them like: scaling, narration, statements from other characters, intent, statements from writers outside of the comics, etc.. All of these have varying degrees of importance from being very reliable to being outright contradictory with established feats and even feats themselves aren't 100% reliable as we know, which is why low showings and outliers are a thing.

@ecstaticgrace:

The whole point of bringing up the destabilizing a planet is to suggest Carol has enough power to put stress on a planet by indirectly attacking someone on said planet. Saying that “just because Thor doesn’t have that feat (which I don’t know if he has a feat like it or not) doesn’t mean he cant do it.” Is the equivalent of suggesting just because Superman hasnt busted a planet with solar flare like WB Hulk has done with a Gamma burst doesn’t mean Superman cant do it... It’s a ridiculous arguement. I’m giving Superman a feat off headcannon despite not actually seeing him doing it.

By the same logic I can go into any thread, you can present a feat and I could simply counter by saying just because the character I’m arguing for didn’t do that doesn’t mean they can’t..

I think your a smart enough guy to not try and suggest that indirectly destabilizing a planet resulting in it blowing up isn’t a city level feat.... especially given she’s casually vaped something city in structure that was visible from the curvature of the moon

How many feats does Carol have of destabilizing a planet? Feats like that or feats of that level? No first off as i explained to you, the feat is still unquantifiable because i have no idea how much does it take to stress a planet to blow it up and then we have to take into account the size and how much unstable the planet is to begin with, Thor has a feat of burning a whole side of a planet but then you realize that the planet was made of napalm so the feat becomes infinitely more easier to accomplish. The reason why i can tell you i don't know if Thor can destabilize the planet is because i genuinely don't know how much it takes to do that, Thor has busted planetoids before, he has knocked out Alter-Ego who is the size of a Moon so depending on how comparable those feats are to destabilizing the planet he may or may not be able to do it. This is completely different to Superman and his Solar Flare which has done stuff like incinerate everything in a quarter of a mile around Clark which is a far cry from busting even a city let alone a planet, if you want me to speculate whether or not Superman can bust a planet with a solar flare you need to have him do something actually comparable with it.

Once again you are going with the extremes, i did not go in and tell you i dunno if Wolverine can destabilize a planet or not, i am talking about Thor who has feats of busting planets and knocking out Moon sized beings, covering the entire planet in a storm and shaking it, etc... he has feats of actually affecting a planet in some way or another, if he didn't i would outright tell you he has nothing to justify him destabilizing a planet therefore he can't do it, but that's not how this works.

Once again i dunno if it's comparable to busting a city or not, because i dunno how to quantify it and i don't think Carol busted an entire city in that scan of yours, not that i doubt Carol couldn't blow up an entire city if she wanted to, that's not really much of a task, Savage Hulk destroyed an entire city with a single foot stomp, Green Scar almost broke a continent twice just by taking a step.

The fact that Thor is suppose to be seen more impressive with mentions of destroying a city by a result of being in a fight. When Carol indirectly destroyed a planet in a fight is ridiculous.

The version of Sentry that Carol took out of a fight was bloodlusted and ripping apart female Ultron.

Hell most of this thread has been Thor is superior in energy output because his statements are better than Carol’s showings... I bring up statements and theyre just regarded as statements.. There’s no such thing as Thompsonforce. Carol is gonna be portrayed like this from a majority of writers who pen her the issue is every feat she gets will be nitpicked like hell it seems.

I dunno where you got the idea that Thor is impressive because he indirectly busted a city, this is the first time i am hearing of this, i am pretty sure he has dozens upon dozens of other things that first get brought up for why he is considered so impressive before anyone mentions indirectly busting a city, like as i said i haven't heard anyone personally talk about that feat but i have heard to death them talking about him indirectly cracking a Moon in his fight with Gorr.

Yes and? You do know that version of Ultorn is made out of one of Tony's armors? It isn't that hard to rip Tony's armor apart, plenty of high-tiers have done that.

Because most debaters are lazy and this thread doesn't actually have actual Thor supporters that care enough to post feats for Thor like ThorParker for instance. I mean time will tell, depends on how many asspull powers Carol ends up pulling out of her ass in the future, maybe she will, maybe she wont, there is no way to know even characters that are above Carol have been portrayed vastly differently under different writers so there is no guarantee. Well unfortunately that's just how it is with the character, she has become extremely divisive and unlikable after her Ms Marvel days.

You know how nitpicky it is to say that in regards to destabilizing a planet it’s a tricky feat. For no other character would anyone be this aggressive with nitpicking a feat. Hell no one looks at stuff like Hulk’s feat of getting hit by Corvus Glaive’s weapon and saying “well we don’t know the size of the star” or Thor’s feat of cracking moons and planets and be like “well we don’t know the size of the moons and the planets” you guys put in some extra work and honestly are using double standards in regards to Binary. I really doubt writers put as much stock into the size of planets and moons and the idea of variating them as much as you guys do. Hell the whole arc with Carol and The Brood Queen the intention was pretty clear on painting Binary as a powerhouse by bringing up that instance and suggesting the Queen could wipe out the Planet Earth with her power. The writer didn’t state she destabilized a world I’m going off what shown and what’s preferred by the majority over what’s actually written in the book of Carol having destroyed a world with her power. Which admittedly it would make more sense to suggest she destabilized it given she was shown not on the planet when it blew up, but again that’s not how the writer described it.

I didn't want to respond to this part at first because it's pointless to but i just have to ask you are you trolling me with saying nobody nitpicked Hulks star feat? It was one of the most divisive feats out there and everyone has tried to speculate on what the size of the star could be from being a mini star to massive one to the fact that it was a star going Supernova at the time so it was actually several times heavier than normal, etc... there is a reason why a HUGE number of people consider that feat an outlier.

@ecstaticgrace:

What I don’t understand is insinuating a character like Thor can do something “better or comparable” to Binary because A.) Binary did it or B.) Thor almost did it based off statements. Despite the lack of performing a similar feat it doesnt excuse the fact of Thor having more appearances yet failing to perform the suggested feat or outclass it.

I asked for a feat that was better of Thor’s energy projection than indirectly destabilizing a planet causing it to be destroyed and instead got feats showing the scope of his lightning or statements of what Thor can do. Binary has impressive statements as well no one here would take it seriously if I tried throwing them around as a means to argue with, so why do it for Thor.

This is the feat that I was told was better than Binary indirectly destabilizing a planet and I don’t see it

Sure i get what you mean, i am not Thor expert so lets use a feat like knocking out Alter-Ego

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who is similar to size of Ego himself

whose 4165 miles in diameter

which is just 50 miles less than the diameter of Mars. How comparable is that feat to the one Carol did? I don't know honestly.

1.) Theres no indication of the damage being done to the planet that’s being suggested

2.) The timeframe it’s happening is questionable id imagine them being gods they should have a lot of stamina we don’t know if it’s just lightning or if theyre tussling around banging into stuff

3.) It’s a co-feat. Their both colliding it’s not just Thor theres a reason she said “‘we’ nearly split the planet in two” which could be hyperbole for all I know but key word on ”we”

That feat is a joke btw, i laugh every time someone tries to use it because the feat itself makes little sense and isn't even a combat feat or a feat Thor does alone so it's pointless, i would personally mention feats like these

Unworthy Thor releases a lightning blast powerful enough to sweep Hela, Black Swan and Proxima, break through the walls of a space ship and be seen from the outside of a space ship that's the size of a small solar system.

Tony asks Thor if he can cover the whole planet in a hurricane and he does so.

Thor causes a storm powerful enough on Asgard that it reaches Earth and wrecks havoc there.

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Thor covers the whole planet in lightning.

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Thor again cause lighting and winds all over the world to appear and also bursts out of the Sun with a massive and powerful storm that's visible on it's surface.

Once again i am no expert, he might have more impressive feats, he might not but i definitely know these are better than that stupid kiss feat lol.

Thats the thing. Carol has feats at a level that show she can compete with these characters. She has the uber feats that no one ever uses for high tiers like threatening the fabric of reality/space. She has stuff showing she can cause harm on a global scale. She has statements suggesting she’s that tier in Binary. Writer intent is pretty clear with the form. I’d argue her placement of Binary in the MCU is nothing wrong based off her showings. If anything the only issue I’d argue is how Thanos and the IG are treated. But otherwise Binary was pretty obscure enough to put her where they put her. Id argue despite probably not even having 50 appearances where Carol goes or is in her Binary form she has a good amount of high tier feats to her name.

Hulk, Thor, Superman have had feats where they threatened the fabric of reality or affected/resisted it in some way, nobody uses those feats(well some people always do) because those are hard to quantify but also don't feel like feats high-tiers should be able to do but actual reality warpers. I mean Carols position in MCU is there because of political reasons, not because it reflects her position in the comics, i mean all you have to do is look at Hulk and realize that what MCU does they do for profit, political and social situations and because how limited their are, in the comics a Hulkbuster has never beaten Hulk, ever literally. In Age of Ultron the Hulkbuster armor beats Hulk, why? Well Tony is more popular and more easy to profit from than Hulk who is dead weight to Marvel at this point, so I'd rather not go into the whole MCU thing.

The fact these past couple of days other users have struggled to show characters who exist in a tier they claim Binary isn’t yet could match Binary’s power output on personal feats yet have more issues confirms that in my opinion.

Those users are the low tier posters of comicvine, they make over 90% of the forums, it's people that have very, very vague knowledge of characters but think they know who beats who based on that knowledge and they FEEL that one character has to be above the other because of whatever reasons in their mind.

At one point he wasn’t on the vine though. The issue is putting to much stock on who a character is, and suggesting cause “they should be here” is the end all of a debate.

I mean at one point Gladiator was viewed above post-crisis Superman almost on Thanos level, at one point BA was considered a team buster on or above Thanos level, at one point Hulk couldn't even defeat any other brick he was put against, these things are entirely driven by debaters and how well they can debate for said characters.

Again, most of my argument has been reliant on questioning if characters could match her power output based off feats. Which I argued her power output was really impressive and backed up the scaling. Which backs up the statements which backs up the writer intent.

Sure, but i dunno if any of that is that impressive for a high-tier, it really depends on consistency, i would have to look at all of Carols appearances as Binary and gouge how effective she was with it.

Heck honestly I’d argue Binary off feats and scaling could match up pretty soundly with Jane outside that whole Mljonir operates independently and can’t fight on its own if need be.

Maybe but that would still put her at the low end of high-tiers at best.

@ecstaticgrace: Also you’re nitpicking. Youre while mention of a planet being made of napalm only relates to Thor. We’re not told anything like that of The Brood homeworld. Any theories on its size, density, mass it’s just theoretical. Youre nitpicking on what the destabilizing accomplished. She put so much stress on a planet by blasting the brood Queen it eventually blew up. Thats the feat right there. Something that’s being dodged in this thread. Knocking out something that’s moon size isn’t the equivalent of destroying something of the same size or being the reason it eventually goes boom. The whole idea of arguing Planetoids where Thor is mainly visible from space as comparable to a full on Planet Carol cant be seen from space is a bit ridiculous. Planets often times being bigger than planetoids as well.

It's not nitpicking it's pointing out that there can be a multitude of other circumstances that we don't know of. Which is why i tell you i have no idea how to quantify the feat, first off the planet shaking like crazy before exploding to bits would suggest the planet was already unstable to begin with, then again these are comics so anything is possible. Yea but putting something under stress where it causes it to eventually explode is not the blowing it up outright. That's what we don't know, in fact you could argue it's more impressive since we are talking about an abstract entity here, it might be an outlier for Thor tbh, although things tend to be a lot more vulnerable on the inside than out. When was Thor visible on the planetoid from space?

Yet I still haven’t gotten anything comparable to Thor‘s lightning being the reason a planet eventually collapses. You’re whole argument prior was stating the lack of a feat doesn’t suggest the inability of it. The whole fact of Thor being “almost” capable of it should end this discussion right here in regards to the feat though.

The problem is Thors lighting is always connected to Earth in some way or another, which can obviously never collapse due to the plot shield it has. Carol hasn't busted a planet she caused a chain reaction that destabilized a planet which eventually blew up, so Thors "almost" does not end the discussion i am afraid.

Damn you can’t even admit even one of her feats can you...I mean what’s the point of even arguing if anything is going to end up being a non-feat to you

It's not that those are non-feats for me, it's that i don't see the same thing you are seeing.

It didn’t even show a limited amount of the place either it showed the entire scope that was visible from space and her blasting it to smitherines

It showed the whole place from space and then when she blasts it literally just shows one large or a few small buildings, it doesn't show a whole city, as far as we know she could have just destroyed the facility there, not the whole city.

You could call it whatever you want but that’s not less than city sized.

I mean those windows/openings on one of the building going down must be several city blocks than in size.

Thats cool for Green Scar and Savage Hulk I guess. Question if doing damage control for your favorite characters is why you guys pop into these threads.

Why do you pop up in threads with Carol, arguing with every single person that doesn't view her on the exact same level as you? You are asking redundant questions here.

I’m aware of the Gorr instance it’s not energy projection which is what I was arguing with him/her about. Ironically the moon he “busted” didn’t even instantly get destroyed either and he was performing the feat with great force under his part where he said something along the lines of his bones hurting with each swing. I don’t see how that would be moon or planet level striking. When the moon didn’t instantly bust. Not to mention we don’t know the size of the moon and we don’t see any planets actually busting it’s just narrative 🙄 That’s how annoying the nitpicking is..

The planet that Carol destroyed didn't blow up immediately either and Thor was tearing his muscles and cracking his fingers but he was also far, FAR away from the Moon, while Carol was directly on the planet. I mean we don't, we can't know for sure we do have some scans of Thor and others being in the Moon and it did from that perspective look like a normal sized Moon, maybe more it even had entire civilizations living on it and most importantly in lacked the curvature that planetoids have when characters stand on them.

The whole mention on Thor here by you already states my point on having a already built perception so you come into a thread with a clear bias.

I mean if you are accusing me of being biased for Thor over Carol, then yes i am way more in favor of Thor being more powerful than Carol.

Ok. What does you not liking her have to do with anything relevant here? You’re arguments pretty much made that clear. More feats down the road for her just mean more for you to nitpick and make some explanation on why it’s not a feat.

I mean it's the same for you liking it, neither of us is gonna be truly objective on the character.

I've seen it brought up in versus threads without anyone nitpicking the feat. How it was viewed upon introduction I’m unaware of

Here https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/hulk-187/what-s-the-heaviest-thing-hulk-has-lifted-1501351/?page=3

it's a thread about what's the heaviest Hulk has lifted and it's 3 pages about people arguing back and forth about the validity of the star feat.

@ecstaticgrace: The whole feat is weird though. What does size have to do with being knocked out? I can’t call it planetary in the same scope of destroying a planet because a planet wasn’t destroyed it was just knocked out which is more a conscious thing than anything else. Unless Alter-Ego remained conscious taking a planetary destroying attack and Thor just happened to knock him out I don’t see the relation. If that’s not understandable Id have to ask why does knocking out a planet equate to destroying one?

It doesn't, i would say his durability has to do with him being knocked out although the lightning was so big it was coming out of every hole from his head. Once again Carol did not blast the planet and outright destroy it, she caused it to be de-stabilized and after a few seconds/minutes of violent shaking it blew up, so whether or not this is comparable to that i don't know, i am just trying to give you feats of Thor doing some energy attacks that can affect a planet in some way i dunno if it's exactly comparable to what Carol did because i still don't know how to quantify what Carol did.

How does any of this relate to actually destroying a planet. It’s flashy and impressive as hell In regards to scope. But how does covering a planet in storms equate to destroying a planet? How does spanning lightning across galaxies equate to destroying a planet?

Hell im pretty sure I’ve seen Storm shown to have perform feats of encompassing the globe with her weather. I dont think you’d argue she can use it to cause the destruction of the planet. In a timely manner.

Id be extremely confused though if destabilizing a planet resulting in its destruction is seen as below covering a planet with a storm in terms of damage output. When one is actually doing damage to the globe.

I dunno how does blowing a hole visible in a solar sized space ship comparable to destabilizing a planet causing it to blow up? How does causing a lightning storm to burst out of the Sun and be visible on it's surface compare to destabilizing a planet causing it to blow up?

I don't think Storm has ever caused a planet sized storm, the most she has done is cover a country, IIRC Xavier specifically said once she doesn't have the power to cover the whole Antartic in a storm.

I wouldn't say it's above or below, as i said it's hard to quantify what it takes to de-stabilized a planet for it to violently shake and blow up because that doesn't actually happen IRL unless the planets is highly unstable to begin with.

My main point is people like to say Carol is overpowered in the films. Which is funny because she didn’t do anything personal feat wise she couldnt do in the comics. Kid Nova could replicate everything she did. and again Binary hasnt been touched upon much to the point her placement could for the most part be up in the air. The whole form is still a bit of a mystery on how it works.

They obviously mean in relation to other MCU characters, all the MCU characters are trash compared to their comic book counterparts.

Carol as Binary doesn’t really have many appearances so it wouldn’t be a hard task to do.

I suppose, the lack of motivation on the other hand.

@ecstaticgrace:

Circumstances not listed. So you’re theorizing. How do you quantify feats like covering a planet in a storm? Or cracking Alien moons indirectly with your strikes. What if those moons were made of cheese because Aaron never told us what the moon or planets that were being destroyed were composed of. Just that they were moons and planets. He didn’t tell us the size or the mass of these moons and planets. Hell Im theorizing it could be made of glass since it cracked. That’s the argument your basically giving me while using feats for Thor that are in your very definition unquantifiable.

I might of confused Thor with Beta Ray Bill regardless you could make the same arguement of what is the planetoid composed of, what it is it’s size, mass, etc. That type of arguing basically negates everything.

It's not possible to quantify them, i already told you this. I doubt they were made of cheese since they had alien races living on them. Here is the problem with what you are doing here, i never said the planet Carol blew up was made of cheese or whatever else, the problem is i dunno how to quantify how de-stabilizing a planet works, because unlike destroying planets outright which can be achieved and calculated or cracking one side on them i have no idea what you need to achieve to make a planet violently shake for it to eventually blow up.

Oh i made that argument already a year ago and even now i am discussing it with someone else in another thread, that was a very tiny planetoid Bill destroyd there.

Thor has been to other planets, he’s fought in space and had more higher up fights than Carol. Her having a feat where her power resulted in a world be blown up indirectly that we see on panel and Thor not doesn’t do him favors. Writers stating that him going all out “almost” leads to the destruction of the world doesn’t do him any favors when her power did result in the destruction of a world. That’s like doing a wing eating contest and saying just cause I almost beat the guy in first place I should get the prize. It’s what you and Battle123axe have been doing for Thor this entire thread.

So? Grey Hulk has been to space only twice and one of those times he destroyed an asteroid twice as big as Earth, it's silly but it entirely depends on the writers intention. And no writer intended for Thor to destroy an alien planet. There have been plenty of statements that says Thor can destroy planets easily if that is what you are looking for? Dunno why you are hanging on the "almost" part in that one instance but ignore another scan i gave you where it says he caused winds in the Sun that could raze a world.

Youre whole argument relies on speculation and theorizing. “As far as we know” by the end of this neither character is going to have any feat if we both rely on our speculations.

Maybe that's for the best, some feats are not meant to be taken seriously.

Im often tagged or brought up lol, so I get it out of the way.

Me too :)

Never stated it blew up right away but it did blow up due to her power. I mean there was an entire race living on the Brood world. I don’t remember any race living on the moon that got destroyed? It’s a comic book artistically what’s a “normal“ sized moon going to look like. I could honestly make the same argument claiming that the brood homeworld looks artistically like a normal sized planet. Whatever that is.

Youre doing that double standard thing.

Are you talking about the Moon that Thor cracked with Gorr? Why do you think he flew back to mend the crack in the first place?

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You see aliens on it praising him for saving them. Normal size means it's comparable to the planets in our solar system and isn't the size of buildings or mountains that a lot of the time people try to pass of as planets the size of Earth.

Did i ever said that the Brood planet didn't look like a normal sized planet? Whats the double standard?

I have walked away from threads with a changed mindset is the difference between me and you. I can come into a thread thinking one thing about who wins and then leave thinking another. I don’t latch onto my bias and make arguments that I wouldn’t allow for the character I’m arguing against.

I've changed my mind plenty of times, i constantly do. So i dunno where you got the impression that i don't?

So basically both feats are unquantifiable then

More or less yes.

You’d have to tell me? Was the hole planet size? Was the burst in the sun planet size? Would it have resulted in a planet blowing up?

Wouldnt that be the part of the feat. Her energy output was making the planet unstable. Whole point of suggesting she destabilized it, or put so much stress on the planet it eventually blew up

Regardless all of this I guess is just more unquantifiable feats.

Well if it's visible from a ship the size of a small solar system i would assume it would be. That depends on how durable the ships walls were in comparison to the planet.

Yea but the problem is how to quantify it, how much was needed to destabilize it for it to blow up.

Eh.. Thor can compete with his weapon with a full infinity gauntlet and a fit Infinity War/ Early Ragnarok Thor can kill Thanos with a axe swing or throw.. I wouldn’t say Carol is the only character. If anything Thor has the best showings in the MCU.

Sure but his also been much longer in the MCU than Carol, but that's the thing he shouldn't compete with her, he should deal with her with the same difficulty he would deal with Ironman, although that's not even correct because Iroman in the MCU is much closer in power to Thor than he is in the comics.

There’s out of context stuff here. Red Hulk would most likely absorb all her energy. Better feats.

@ecstaticgrace: Um... Im the user that got both characters’s reputation into question precisely because people were using a shit ton of out of context instances. Stop sniffing paint.

Either way, top off my head, Binary never busted a planet. She caused a chain reaction. Her energy output is nowhere near that level and she’s also painfully inconsistent.