Shang Chi & Cat vs Batman & Nightwing

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby said:

That might be a great Scan....if it showed any proof that Cat is even on Shang's Level...but it doesn't.

Do you need proof of that? I can share scans if you'd like.

I'm just saying..posting a Scan of Black Panther talking about how good Shang is...does nothing to suggest that Cat is also on that level.

What I see is you questioning whether Cat is on Shang's level. I can prove he is. Do you want those scans or nay?

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby said:

That might be a great Scan....if it showed any proof that Cat is even on Shang's Level...but it doesn't.

Do you need proof of that? I can share scans if you'd like.

I'm just saying..posting a Scan of Black Panther talking about how good Shang is...does nothing to suggest that Cat is also on that level.

What I see is you questioning whether Cat is on Shang's level. I can prove he is. Do you want those scans or nay?

I'm not Questioning the ability... I'm Questioning the Validity of the Scan. The scan shows BP saying that Shang is IF's equal. It doesn't show any skill supporting that position. It doesn't mention Cat. It provides no proof of anything. That's all I am saying. I'm saying if you want to support an argument that Shen equals Shang equals IF...that scan is functionally flacid.

Oh right so now we're going to blame writers. 

 I still see a distinct lack of feats from Nightwing that put him on Shang-Chi or Shen Kuei's level.

@Shawnbaby: At the end of the day, all I care about is you saying there's nothing to suggest Cat is on Shang's level. A fair point in this scenario because obviously there's nothing on that page, but I can provide proof that Cat and Shang are at least equals. The debate over that scan... I couldn't care less -- I'm obviously not taking sides. I just want to make it clear that the two are evenly matched.

 I just want to make it clear that the two are evenly matched.

@Vance Astro said:

@k4tzm4n said:

I just want to make it clear that the two are evenly matched.

But they aren't though. The only thing that stands on is a scan from before your birth with no actual feats to back it up. If we say that scan proves The Cat is Shang Chi's equal then I guess Shang Chi is also better than Iron Fist because Black Panther said so.

I'll repeat myself: I don't care about the dispute surrounding that quote. All I care about is proving Cat and Shang are at least equals. If that really needs to be proved, I'll provide images. From there, where you decide to place them in comparison to others is your own business.

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby: At the end of the day, all I care about is you saying there's nothing to suggest Cat is on Shang's level. A fair point in this scenario because obviously there's nothing on that page, but I can provide proof that Cat and Shang are at least equals. The debate over that scan... I couldn't care less -- I'm obviously not taking sides. I just want to make it clear that the two are evenly matched.

Again, It was only the scan itself I took issue with. It does nothing to support the argument of Shen = Shang = Danny.

@Vance Astro said:

@k4tzm4n said:

I just want to make it clear that the two are evenly matched.

But they aren't though. The only thing that stands on is a scan from before your birth with no actual feats to back it up. If we say that scan proves The Cat is Shang Chi's equal then I guess Shang Chi is also better than Iron Fist because Black Panther said so.

Yes they are. They always have been.

@k4tzm4n: You should probably post those Scans regardless...since this doesn't seem to be going anywhere past

"Shen is as good as Shang".

"No he isn't"

"Yes he is"

"Nuh-uh"

"Yuh-huh"

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby: At the end of the day, all I care about is you saying there's nothing to suggest Cat is on Shang's level. A fair point in this scenario because obviously there's nothing on that page, but I can provide proof that Cat and Shang are at least equals. The debate over that scan... I couldn't care less -- I'm obviously not taking sides. I just want to make it clear that the two are evenly matched.

Again, It was only the scan itself I took issue with. It does nothing to support the argument of Shen = Shang = Danny.

And again, I'm not talking about that quote even though you still are. I'm more than aware what you're trying to say. I can read. I know it's tough to believe, but I can from time to time. The sole purpose of me diving in was you deciding to go into the territory of claiming Cat and Shang are not equals. Connecting that statement to the provided quote doesn't interest me, that claim does (that there is a lack of evidence proving Cat = Shang). If you legitimately believe they -- Cat and Shang, not Danny, not T'Challa's word -- are not equals, then I can prove otherwise. Your expanded thoughts on that quote aren't why I stepped in. Informing people that Shang and Cat are equals is.

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n: You should probably post those Scans regardless...since this doesn't seem to be going anywhere past

"Shen is as good as Shang".

"No he isn't"

"Yes he is"

"Nuh-uh"

"Yuh-huh"

Sure, and that's exactly why I offered to in the first place.

Copy/pasted from an old PM I had with Morph:

Debut appearance. More so posted to demonstrate his technique and Shang's comments about him.

Cat vs Shang, round 1

Seemingly a perfect draw until they stopped, but there's a catch: both Shang and the Cat acknowledge that, had the battle went on, the Cat would have won. Note could, but would have won.

"The only man I have ever faced in combat that would have beaten me".

Cat vs Shang, round 2 - The whole "I would have won" thing gets to the Cat's head (the Cat ends up saying so), and in combination with his wrath, throws him off his game.

Cat vs Shang, round 3 - perfect draw.

Further verification from Shang that the Cat would have won round 1 - however, he mentions that the outcome of that fight in particular was certainly open ended.

Cat vs Shang, round 4 - Only fight where Shang has the upper hand.

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby: At the end of the day, all I care about is you saying there's nothing to suggest Cat is on Shang's level. A fair point in this scenario because obviously there's nothing on that page, but I can provide proof that Cat and Shang are at least equals. The debate over that scan... I couldn't care less -- I'm obviously not taking sides. I just want to make it clear that the two are evenly matched.

Again, It was only the scan itself I took issue with. It does nothing to support the argument of Shen = Shang = Danny.

And again, I'm not talking about that quote even though you still are. I'm more than aware what you're trying to say. I can read. I know it's tough to believe, but I can from time to time. The sole purpose of me diving in was you deciding to go into the territory of claiming Cat and Shang are not equals. Connecting that statement to the provided quote doesn't interest me, that claim does (that there is a lack of evidence proving Cat = Shang). If you legitimately believe they -- Cat and Shang, not Danny, not T'Challa's word -- are not equals, then I can prove otherwise. Your expanded thoughts on that quote aren't why I stepped in. Informing people that Shang and Cat are equals is.

And Again...I never said that Cat and Shang weren't Equals...Vance is the one saying that...All I said was that Scan doesn't prove anything. I don't care about the quote from BP either. What I have been saying all along is that the Scan has absolutely no relevance here and should never have been posted.

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby: At the end of the day, all I care about is you saying there's nothing to suggest Cat is on Shang's level. A fair point in this scenario because obviously there's nothing on that page, but I can provide proof that Cat and Shang are at least equals. The debate over that scan... I couldn't care less -- I'm obviously not taking sides. I just want to make it clear that the two are evenly matched.

Again, It was only the scan itself I took issue with. It does nothing to support the argument of Shen = Shang = Danny.

And again, I'm not talking about that quote even though you still are. I'm more than aware what you're trying to say. I can read. I know it's tough to believe, but I can from time to time. The sole purpose of me diving in was you deciding to go into the territory of claiming Cat and Shang are not equals. Connecting that statement to the provided quote doesn't interest me, that claim does (that there is a lack of evidence proving Cat = Shang). If you legitimately believe they -- Cat and Shang, not Danny, not T'Challa's word -- are not equals, then I can prove otherwise. Your expanded thoughts on that quote aren't why I stepped in. Informing people that Shang and Cat are equals is.

And Again...I never said that Cat and Shang weren't Equals...Vance is the one saying that...All I said was that Scan doesn't prove anything. I don't care about the quote from BP either. What I have been saying all along is that the Scan has absolutely no relevance here and should never have been posted.

You said that scan would be great if it proved Cat is Shang's equal. It doesn't. Such a statement made me believe you honestly do not know how the two compare. I offered to prove to you they are indeed equals. It's literally that simple. I'm well aware that wasn't your intention after your first reply to me, but you never made it clear how you actually felt on the Shang/Cat comparison. Scans are above. My intention was never to even discuss the scan at hand. It was never in my mind. All that mattered was assuring you knew Cat and Shang are equals. I have no desire to dive into an argument surrounding a statement.

And if that's what you wanted to say, saying that in the first placewould have been simpler then making me think you legitimately believe the two are not on par :P

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby: At the end of the day, all I care about is you saying there's nothing to suggest Cat is on Shang's level. A fair point in this scenario because obviously there's nothing on that page, but I can provide proof that Cat and Shang are at least equals. The debate over that scan... I couldn't care less -- I'm obviously not taking sides. I just want to make it clear that the two are evenly matched.

Again, It was only the scan itself I took issue with. It does nothing to support the argument of Shen = Shang = Danny.

And again, I'm not talking about that quote even though you still are. I'm more than aware what you're trying to say. I can read. I know it's tough to believe, but I can from time to time. The sole purpose of me diving in was you deciding to go into the territory of claiming Cat and Shang are not equals. Connecting that statement to the provided quote doesn't interest me, that claim does (that there is a lack of evidence proving Cat = Shang). If you legitimately believe they -- Cat and Shang, not Danny, not T'Challa's word -- are not equals, then I can prove otherwise. Your expanded thoughts on that quote aren't why I stepped in. Informing people that Shang and Cat are equals is.

And Again...I never said that Cat and Shang weren't Equals...Vance is the one saying that...All I said was that Scan doesn't prove anything. I don't care about the quote from BP either. What I have been saying all along is that the Scan has absolutely no relevance here and should never have been posted.

You said that scan would be great if it proved Cat is Shang's equal. It doesn't. Such a statement made me believe you honestly do not know how the two compare. I offered to prove to you they are indeed equals. It's literally that simple. Scans are above.

And if that's what you wanted to say, saying that would have been simpler then making me think you legitimately believe the two are not on par :P

Saying that is exactly what I did do. That scan shows nothing to prove they are on the same level. What you inferred from that statement was out of my hands. And I did say so quite outright after your first response to me that I wasn't questioning Shen's Ability. @Shawnbaby said:

I'm not Questioning the ability... I'm Questioning the Validity of the Scan. The scan shows BP saying that Shang is IF's equal. It doesn't show any skill supporting that position. It doesn't mention Cat. It provides no proof of anything. That's all I am saying. I'm saying if you want to support an argument that Shen equals Shang equals IF...that scan is functionally flacid.

@Shawnbaby: "I'm not questioning the ability" was a rather vague statement to me, but if that was your way of saying "yes, I know Cat and Shang are equals, but... that quote..." then fine. That's all I cared about.

Also, saying "I'm not questioning the ability" never confirmed you agreed or disagreed with them being equals. All I wanted to inform was the history between the two if you didn't already have that knowledge. Nothing more, nothing less. Frankly, it's grown tiresome at this point. All I wanted to show is they are indeed equals and I have provided the scans showing that. An extended conversation on miss communication isn't time well spent for either of us, or even interesting.

IMO its close but I think Cat is a better fighter than Nightwing (not by much) so while Batman and Shang duke it out for ages Cat will have beaten Dick before the Bat Vs Shang fight comes to a close and Bats Vs Shang and Cat? I don't see him wining that fight.

@k4tzm4n said:

What I see is you questioning whether Cat is on Shang's level. I can prove he is. Do you want those scans or nay?

@Shawnbaby said:

I'm not Questioning the ability... I'm Questioning the Validity of the Scan. The scan shows BP saying that Shang is IF's equal. It doesn't show any skill supporting that position. It doesn't mention Cat. It provides no proof of anything. That's all I am saying. I'm saying if you want to support an argument that Shen equals Shang equals IF...that scan is functionally flacid.

I don't see how that answer is vague at all. I made it clear I was talking about the Scan Itself.

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n said:

What I see is you questioning whether Cat is on Shang's level. I can prove he is. Do you want those scans or nay?

@Shawnbaby said:

I'm not Questioning the ability... I'm Questioning the Validity of the Scan. The scan shows BP saying that Shang is IF's equal. It doesn't show any skill supporting that position. It doesn't mention Cat. It provides no proof of anything. That's all I am saying. I'm saying if you want to support an argument that Shen equals Shang equals IF...that scan is functionally flacid.

I don't see how that answer is vague at all. I made it clear I was talking about the Scan Itself.

"I'm not questioning the ability... I'm questioning the validity of the scan" doesn't elaborate at all on Cat and Shang being equals for me. What it does mean to me is that's not the issue you're discussing/questioning (because you're not taking it into conversation), therefore you're not making your opinion on that matter transparent. Simply put: you didn't confirm or deny at that point whether you had a firm understanding on the standing between the two -- you simply told me that's not what you're bothering with -- you're bothering with the statement. That's something I know, but it didn't answer my offer to provide a look at the Cat and Shang's battles -- or if you knew their history. Obviously, the statement made sense to you, but it lacked elaboration, therefore it wasn't a complete answer for me, meaning in my eyes you never expressed you understood how Cat and Shang compare.

However, you did eventually end up requesting the scans (with a post that implied to me you required evidence for the point of them being equals)... so,do you really wish to keep going down this long and tiresome path of miscommunication or do you wish to acknowledge the scans that I did provide for you and share your take on them (a discussion that would benefit this thread far more than "I AGREE WITH THIS QUOTE!" "WELL, I DON'T!")? Because if it's the former, I can honestly say I'm going to stand by not carrying on that conversation. But the latter would really help the debate you're all having.

@k4tzm4n said:

@Shawnbaby: "I'm not questioning the ability" was a rather vague statement to me, but if that was your way of saying "yes, I know Cat and Shang are equals, but... that quote..." then fine. That's all I cared about.

Also, saying "I'm not questioning the ability" never confirmed you agreed or disagreed with them being equals. All I wanted to inform was the history between the two if you didn't already have that knowledge. Nothing more, nothing less. Frankly, it's grown tiresome at this point. All I wanted to show is they are indeed equals and I have provided the scans showing that. An extended conversation on miss communication isn't time well spent for either of us, or even interesting.

I understand it's frustrating...It's also frustrating when you are repeatedly badgered about a statement you made by someone that clearly misread the intent of that statement. It's even more frustrating when at the resolution of the misunderstanding that person refuses to take any responsibility for that misunderstanding and lays the blame solely upon your shoulders...That's frustrating too.

If you think I'm "badgering" you, then I do apologize. Just know I only came into this thread to help spread information about one of the lesser known characters -- not take sides or get into an ongoing conversation. It was purely an offer to provide scans and all I required was a simple yes or no.

@k4tzm4n said:

If you think I'm "badgering" you, then I do apologize. Just know I only came into this thread to help spread information about one of the lesser known characters -- not take sides or get into an ongoing conversation. It was purely an offer to provide scans and all I required was a simple yes or no.

It's fine...I'm apparently in a bad mood and I took it a bit more personally than I should have.

I do feel that I did answer your question clearly though and it was frustrating to have to continually defend myself based upon on a misinterpretation.

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n said:

If you think I'm "badgering" you, then I do apologize. Just know I only came into this thread to help spread information about one of the lesser known characters -- not take sides or get into an ongoing conversation. It was purely an offer to provide scans and all I required was a simple yes or no.

It's fine...I'm apparently in a bad mood and I took it a bit more personally than I should have.

I do feel that I did answer your question clearly though and it was frustrating to have to continually defend myself based upon on a misinterpretation.

Don't really want to prolong this but I just thought I'd mention in k4tz defence, I read it in exactly the same way. It's all cleared up now though and we can all go back to being buds.

@Baldy said:

@Shawnbaby said:

@k4tzm4n said:

If you think I'm "badgering" you, then I do apologize. Just know I only came into this thread to help spread information about one of the lesser known characters -- not take sides or get into an ongoing conversation. It was purely an offer to provide scans and all I required was a simple yes or no.

It's fine...I'm apparently in a bad mood and I took it a bit more personally than I should have.

I do feel that I did answer your question clearly though and it was frustrating to have to continually defend myself based upon on a misinterpretation.

Don't really want to prolong this but I just thought I'd mention in k4tz defence, I read it in exactly the same way. It's all cleared up now though and we can all go back to being buds.

I can see how it would be possible to come to that conclusion based on my statement....but I feel I cleared up my position in later posts and yet still had to defend myself.

Anyway...Drama resolved...let's get this back on track.

I'm still of the opinion that with standard gear in play....Bruce and Dick have this pretty solidly...they just have way more tricks in their bag...and a long history of fighting together

Without the gear....I think it's a closer match...I think Batman is superior to both of Team 1...while both of Team 1 are at least on a comparable level with Grayson. I think it would be the Teamwork of Dick and Bruce that would really be the deciding factor here.

Batman and Nightwing win this with gear and lose after a prolonged fight without. Nightwing is the weak link in a hand to hand confrontation. Not by a lot but by enough to make the difference.

@Vance Astro:

Who are you talking about though? Bane,Batman,Deathstroke? Who would bet on The Cat or Shang Chi beating them? I wouldn't. I'm not using the feat against Iron Fist against The Cat, but the first fight was used as a feat for him earlier when in reality Iron Fist is CLEARLY his superior by a long shot.

Yes. I misunderstood you I thought we were using the iron fist showing as a way to gauge the cats abilities and saying that nightwing is a better fighter because the cat lost to him. My mistake.

Neither of which are things Nightwing couldn't do.

What makes you say this?

What track record?

His fights are limited but he does have a few impressive displays.His fight against elektra, a spar against captain america, ghostmaker.

While this is true in battle forums you can't debate on what you don't have evidence of.

But he did beat deadpool...

Yes they are. They always have been.

@Vance Astro said:

@Baldy said:

Yes they are. They always have been.

No, they aren't and they haven't been since the 70's.

What does it matter how old the scans are? They are consistent. Please provide evidence to the contrary.

What does it matter how old the scans are? They are consistent. Please provide evidence to the contrary.

I would like to see feats that suggest Nightwing being on his opponents level. Bringing up Bane or Deathstroke is pointless as well, as Nightwing has lost to them pretty badly IIRC.

Not that I think Nightwing is worse, I am just curious.

Only now I realize I never put any restrictions in the OP for team DC's gear. Updated OP for the sake of balance:

• Shang and Cat have their regular assortment of melee and throwing weapons.

• Bruce has his grappling gun and basic batarangs.

• Nightwing has his escrima sticks, grappling line and batarangs.

@Vance Astro said:

@Baldy said:

What does it matter how old the scans are? They are consistent. Please provide evidence to the contrary.

I already explained this.

So you're just going to completely disregard k4tzman's scans, which show that Shang-Chi and Shen Kuei are consistantly on the same level, without posting a single shred of evidence yourself to back up your claims. Where are all these modern battles in which Shang-Chi stomps all over the Cat?

So you're just going to completely disregard k4tzman's scans, which show that Shang-Chi and Shen Kuei are consistantly on the same level.

without posting a single shred of evidence yourself to back up your claims. 

 Where are all these modern battles in which Shang-Chi stomps all over the Cat?

@Vance Astro said:

@Baldy said:

So you're just going to completely disregard k4tzman's scans, which show that Shang-Chi and Shen Kuei are consistantly on the same level.

Pretty sure that's what I said. Those scans are over 30 years old. Fictional martial artists progress just like real ones do. If you have anything recent suggesting that Shang Chi and The Cat are equal..that would be nice. The scans are only consistent because they are written by the same person and part of the same series. If I showed you scans of Frank Miller's Daredevil fighting the same character twice..obviously the outcomes would be similar.

Unless Shang-Chi got an upgrade then those scans are valid. The fact that they are old is irrelevant. They are consistent and nothing has ever been shown to contradict them. Even more recent bios for the characters have restated the same thing.

So unless you have something modern that contradicts the scans, your argument is invalid.

@Baldy said:

without posting a single shred of evidence yourself to back up your claims.

What Claims? The claim that Shang Chi and The Cat aren't equal? Shang Chi has better feats and has more recent showings as well, so the only thing you have to go on is one writers suggestion that they are equal.

Yeah. All I have to go on is one writers opinion...

...Oh, and all of the fights they have ever had together, and their official bio. But other than that stuff I've got nothing.

@Baldy said:

Where are all these modern battles in which Shang-Chi stomps all over the Cat?

They haven't fought since the 70's so why would those exist. All I'm saying if you're going to make the claim they are STILL equal you need something to hang that on, and there isn't anything he's done recently that you can.

Age doesn't invalidate scans. More recent contradictory evidence does. This evidence does not exist, so unless Shang-Chi had an upgrade I'm not aware of we must assume they are still accurate.

I would like to see feats that suggest Nightwing being on his opponents level. Bringing up Bane or Deathstroke is pointless as well, as Nightwing has lost to them pretty badly IIRC.

Not that I think Nightwing is worse, I am just curious.

 The fact that they are old is irrelevant. 

They are consistent and nothing has ever been shown to contradict them.

 Even more recent bios for the characters have restated the same thing

But other than that stuff I've got nothing.

@Vance Astro said:

@Baldy said:

They are consistent and nothing has ever been shown to contradict them.

Nothing recent has been shown to validate them either. Obviously the age of the scans does prove something. An older fight between Shang Chi and Wolverine shows Shang Chi dominate him. A more recent one shows Wolverine EASILY beat Shang Chi. He didn't get an upgrade, he continued training and got better since then. So obviously when the fight takes place DOES matter.

Wolverine's fighting skill is possibly the most inconsistent thing in the history of published comics.

Wolverine's fighting skill is possibly the most inconsistent thing in the history of published comics.

Good fight but I can see Batman and Nightwing taking this..

@Vance Astro said:

@Baldy said:

Wolverine's fighting skill is possibly the most inconsistent thing in the history of published comics.

No, it isn't.Most skilled fighter haven't ever out fought Wolverine without biased writing from Ennis or a plot device.

He's almost always depicted as a berserking brawler, he only uses his 'skills' like once in every hundred appearances. I'll also point of all of the times that Logan has had the snot beaten out of him and had to take forever to heal up, compared to when he manages to regenerate from a skeleton in minutes. That doesn't sound like consistency. Logan being one of the best fighters in the universe stinks of the all too common Wolverine fan service nonsense that is constantly published.

Of course I could be biased on this subject, as I consider him to be the worst and most overrated character in marvel.

None of this matters though. Shang-Chi and Shen Kuei have still always been depicted as being on the same level, and you have no evidence to the contrary.

He's almost always depicted as a berserking brawler, he only uses his 'skills' like once in every hundred appearances.

Of course I could be biased on this subject, as I consider him to be the worst and most overrated character in marvel.

None of this matters though. Shang-Chi and Shen Kuei have still always been depicted as being on the same level, and you have no evidence to the contrary.

@Vance Astro said:

@Baldy said:

He's almost always depicted as a berserking brawler, he only uses his 'skills' like once in every hundred appearances.

Which has NOTHING to do with where his skills are at or what he consistently shows against other skill characters.

@Baldy said:

Of course I could be biased on this subject, as I consider him to be the worst and most overrated character in marvel.

Indeed.

@Baldy said:

None of this matters though. Shang-Chi and Shen Kuei have still always been depicted as being on the same level, and you have no evidence to the contrary.

I don't need to prove that The Cat isn't still on Shang Chi's level, you need to prove that he is. Their feats don't match up and your reasoning is based on scans from nothing recent. The Wolverine instance was used illustrate the point that characters who are supposed to be skilled and continue training get better over time so whether the Cat and Shang Chi are still equal is beyond you.

If these were not obscure characters, I would agree. When you're talking about chartacters with limited appearences, then you need to use what you've got. In this case we have four full fights between them and their official bio, which all points to them being equal.

So I say again. Unless they have either been retconned, upgraded, or otherwise contradicted, they are equal. Age is irrelevant. Those fights where and still are canon.

By the way, I assume from now on you won't be using scans in battles that are no more than a couple years old.

If these were not obscure characters, I would agree. When you're talking about characters with limited appearences, then you need to use what you've got. In this case we have four full fights between them and their official bio, which all points to them being equal.

So I say again. Unless they have either been retconned, upgraded, or otherwise contradicted, they are equal. Age is irrelevant. Those fights where and still are canon.

By the way, I assume from now on you won't be using scans in battles that are no more than a couple years old.

@Vance Astro: Just a point to make, Shang Chi has become more skilled via training. I agree with you there. But, what's to say that The Cat couldn't have done the same thing? In my opinion, his fight with Deadpool is a good indicator that he has.

@Vance Astro: Just a point to make, Shang Chi has become more skilled via training. I agree with you there. But, what's to say that The Cat couldn't have done the same thing? In my opinion, his fight with Deadpool is a good indicator that he has.

@Vance Astro said:

@Strafe Prower said:

@Vance Astro: Just a point to make, Shang Chi has become more skilled via training. I agree with you there. But, what's to say that The Cat couldn't have done the same thing? In my opinion, his fight with Deadpool is a good indicator that he has.

That's the point i'm making. How can anyone say Shang Chi and the Cat are still equal based on what's been shown in the 70's? The fight with Deadpool proves The Cat is still skilled not that he's equal to Shang Chi. We don't know where they stand in comparison to each other because Shang Chi has continued to have feats and the Cat has been absent.

What are Shang Chi recent feats?

@Vance Astro said:

@Strafe Prower said:

@Vance Astro: Just a point to make, Shang Chi has become more skilled via training. I agree with you there. But, what's to say that The Cat couldn't have done the same thing? In my opinion, his fight with Deadpool is a good indicator that he has.

That's the point i'm making. How can anyone say Shang Chi and the Cat are still equal based on what's been shown in the 70's? The fight with Deadpool proves The Cat is still skilled not that he's equal to Shang Chi. We don't know where they stand in comparison to each other because Shang Chi has continued to have feats and the Cat has been absent.

I disagree. I would argue that based on the the fight with Deadpool and the fights from the 70's, The Cat should still be his equal. We haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise and have to base our opinions on the evidence present, not the lack of appearances. Do you think that Shang Chi would beat Deadpool handily like that?

I disagree. I would argue that based on the the fight with Deadpool and the fights from the 70's, The Cat should still be his equal.

 Do you think that Shang Chi would beat Deadpool handily like that?

@Vance Astro said:

Let's say for a moment that Batman and Nightwing are out of the equation and we were debating who would win between The Cat and Shang Chi? Are we going to say it's a draw because of an incredibly old scan or are we going to compare their feats as a whole?

I agree that we should compare their feats as a whole, but the only other feats that The Cat has is a stalemate with Iron Fist, then a stomp from Iron Fist. Those are contradicting for the plots sake, so it's hard to judge what is credible and what isn't. That leaves, besides the Deadpool fight, The fists with Shang Chi. Honestly, that is the feats as a whole for The Cat, and should be used to decide where The Cat is in terms of fighting ability. I don't think Shang Chi has improved so much that he would be out of The Cat's level of skill.

@Vance Astro said:

No, but how do we know that's not a low showing for Deadpool? How is Deadpool able to hang with Wolverine,Daredevil,Iron Fist,and most of the best fighters in the Marvel Universe but the Cat beats him easily?

While it may be a bit illogical for The Cat to stomp Deadpool, I don't think that The Cat fighting and beating Deadpool is too far fetched considering how Deadpool's skils have been shown as of late.

@Vance Astro said:

If Wolverine curbstomped Shang Chi and it appears people are arguing that Shang Chi and The Cat are equals wouldn't that mean that Wolverine would likely curbstomp that Cat?

Hasn't Shang Chi had the advantage on Wolverine as well? I feel as if Shang Chi is way to skilled to be curbstomped by Wolverine, and the same goes for The Cat.

@Vance Astro said:

Wolverine has almost always struggled with Deadpool..so why would the Cat be able to beat him easily? None of this adds up. Shang Chi and The Cat both have embarssing defeats. Granted they are too Wolverine and Iron Fist whom are two of the best in the Marvel Universe but Iron Fist was never able to do to Deadpool what the Cat did and they've fought more than once. I understand this sounds like an ABC logic argument but what about makes him capable of doing what two of the best Martial Artists in the Marvel U could not?

I agree that The Cat shouldn't have stomped Deadpool, but I think that the fight could have had the same result, win/loss wise, if it was well written. Granted, I'm basing that off of The Cat training and becoming even more skilled as we have agreed Shang Chi has.

What are Shang Chi recent feats?

• Curbstomped Paladin 
• Sparred well with Steve Rogers 
• Defeated Mr.Negative 
• Fought well against the Bride of 9 Spiders

I agree that we should compare their feats as a whole, but the only other feats that The Cat has is a stalemate with Iron Fist, then a stomp from Iron Fist. Those are contradicting for the plots sake, so it's hard to judge what is credible and what isn't. 

The fists with Shang Chi. Honestly, that is the feats as a whole for The Cat, and should be used to decide where The Cat is in terms of fighting ability. I don't think Shang Chi has improved so much that he would be out of The Cat's level of skill.

While it may be a bit illogical for The Cat to stomp Deadpool, I don't think that The Cat fighting and beating Deadpool is too far fetched considering how Deadpool's skils have been shown as of late.

Hasn't Shang Chi had the advantage on Wolverine as well? I feel as if Shang Chi is way to skilled to be curbstomped by Wolverine, and the same goes for The Cat..