Severus Snape vs. Kingsley Shacklebolt

Severus Snape

Kingsley Shacklebolt

• Only book feats are applicable
• Same knowledge as in the books
• In their DH incarnations.
• Win if the opponent can't fight anymore (no matter his state)
• Fight takes place at the Department of Mysteries

Let's discuss ! @leo-343@darkraiden @princearagorn1@alphaq@rbt @wardedman7050@allstarsuperman@metaljimmor@silentbat@jayc1324@hulkage@strafe_prower

Severus, but Kingsley makes him work for it.

This, I'm afraid.

Snape is certainly more powerful. He showed more high level power and versatility than anyone outside of the big 3 in the books.

Creating his own powerful spells at a young age. Being so powerful at occlemency that Voldemort couldn't penetrate his mind. Flying without a wand. Being a top level healer. Fending off Moghanagal while holding back. Briefly fending off several teachers. The list goes on and on.

People will say "he has no fighting feats" and they will give him an automatic loss because of it. But it is only due to his character toeing the line between two warring factions that he did not fight.

However the power levels that he showed are well beyond and more vast and versatile than the likes of people like Kingsley, Lestrange, etc.

This was hastily written so I probably left a lot out. Please forgive me.

Going Snape here

@leo-343: Kingsley barely has any either and Snape is has much more raw power.

Ends in....

He can shut out Voldemort, fly without a wand, developed his own spells, perhaps the most accomplished at making potions, etc. He was portrayed as being a very powerful wizard.

@mije_101: May I ask you your reasoning ?

And how does being more accomplished in potions or having learned how to fly without a wand (which by the way may be wrong since Mcgonagall implied the contrary) mean having more raw power ?

Another question is what are his duelling feats who make him able to defeat Kingsley Shacklebolt a top auror who showed at numerous times that he was able to fight several death eaters at once ?

Actually after reading arguments I realized that the term "power" is really misused here. Powerful would be a term qualifying Dumbledore who cast a so powerful spell "that Harry, though shielded by his golden guard, felt his hair stand on end as it passed and this time Voldemort was forced to conjure a shining silver shield out of thin air to deflect it." It would qualify Barty Crouch who was said as such by Sirius Black and showed it when he cast a memory charms so powerful that it caused Bertha Jorkins permanent memory damage. These are powers feats, and there is others case. What you are talking about are his proof of skills, not power.

Now let's talk about Snape feats:

* Being able to shut out Voldemort is occlumency skills which required a high degree of mental and emotional discipline but it has nothing to do with power and worse it doesn't even matter in a duel since nobody use legilimency.

* Ability to fly, again it's a matter of skills, it was never say that it was impossible to others or that it requires to be particularly powerful but presumably that only two wizards had knowledge of the technic behind it.

* Creating his own spell, it showed how skilled Snape was again it has nothing to do with power, Sectumsempra the most impressive cursed he showed was deadly not powerful so it was highly difficult to master it. That feat speak for Snape talent which was never denied.

* Does I really have to mention potion amazing skills ? Especially as it has nothing to do with duelling...

* His "healing" skills which are obviously overrated since his only feat in that area is having been able to counter a curse he created himself, not to mention that this has nothing to do with power feat or duelling feat by the way.

* His only worthy feat in duel would be his very short fight against Mcgonagall in which he barely managed to survive. Some will say that he didn't want to kill her which is right however there is many ways to subdue someone without killing him yet it seems Mcgonagall transfiguration was too much to handle to him. The legend about him fighting several teachers never happened.

At the end most of Snape's feat has nothing to do with fighting abilities, they showed that he is a talented wizard with a wide variety of skills such as potions, occlumency etc. much like Horace Slughorn an extremely able wizard, so if the thread was about who is the better wizard overall I'd say yes Snape is high up there with the likes of Mcgonagall or Slughorn (you'll remark that despite being a former duelling champion I do not put Flitwick there) but here it comes to duel, who will win a fight so all arguments including potion skills, occlumency skills (...) are irrelevant here.

Just to talk about Dumbledore's spell against Voldemort, it could easily be a simple stunning spell who was so impressive due to the raw power of the caster himself.

Wait a minute, Kingsley has no Occlumency feats, Snape predicts his every move and wins.

I completely called it in my first post lol.

@alphaq said:

In high level duel, things doesn't happened like that as we saw in Snape fight against Mcgonagall or Sirius fight at the department of mysteries. In the first case Minerva was handling things so quickly with her coordination and the quickness of her transfiguration spell that Snape had no choice to hide behind an armor. As for Sirius and the death eater, they duelled so fiercely that their wands were blurs. They cast so much non-verbal spell at time you barely see their wand, this is far from Harry who was unable to cast a simple non-verbal spell aside from "levicorpus". As you see in duel against good experienced dueller you don't have time to use legilimency and at the same time concentrate yourself to use non-verbal spell, the level of duelling skill isn't comparable.

Snape was holding McGona- McGonga- the Transfiguration chick, Filtwick ( dwarf ) and some other guy in a 1v3 duel.

Minerva is already a top class witch on her own, Snape would steamroll Kingsley. Apart from Voldemort and Dumbledore he's probably the best duelist in the books. He's really underrated, it's like people forget he's the only one apart from Voldy that can fly.

@pateuvasiliu said:

Someone needs to read the books ? It never happened, read chapter 30: "The sacking of Severus Snape"

Kingsley.

That might have been Voldemort. It's been years.

@pateuvasiliu: Yeah it was Voldemort and he fought Mcgonagall, Kingsley and Slughorn in a 3v1, Snape only briefly fought Mcgonagall.

Right. Well, he managed to deflect McGonagall's sucker punch and managed to escape a 1v2.

He also steamrolled Harry in book 6 at the end.

I'm going with Snape. He did create the sectumsempra spell which is a battle spell, and fought multiple teachers at once for a short period of time. Death eaters (besides obvious ones like Bellatrix and Lucius) are not always that impressive given that children like harry and Ron were able to beat them. Snape is just much more powerful overall. Be able to fly is a great advantage as well.

@pateuvasiliu: What 1v2 ? Flitwick just enchanted the armor whom Snape manage to physically escaped and to send onto the teachers who were coming. Where did you see any fight between the former duelling champion and Snape ? Where did you see Snape fighting simultaneous Minerva and Flitwick ? And what do you mean by "defecting Mcgonagall's sucker punch ?

Again it never happened, the real feat here is him fighting Minerva, the arrival of teacher made him running away there was no duel. You forgot to mention Dolohov in the skilled death eaters (he has better duelling feats than Lucius or Snape) and there is others death eaters responsible of the death of former Order members such as Travers. Do you have any proof that he is much more powerful than Kingsley ? Did someone ever mention him to be particularly powerful ?

I don't agree, although it's true Legilimency hasn't been a factor in enough fights to be an insta-win. It's when you factor in the other advantages that Snape has that you realize that he can both use it and win; speed and power.

Snape hid behind the armor because of the intensity and coordination, but he was still in control of the fight, being in the ideal position to place a non-fatal counterattack, like he did to hold off the professors. Not saying he planned it but he was weathering her attacks well. Plus he was holding back, so if he was using Legilimency at the time is unknown, particularly when you factor in things like smoke and snakes that broke the direct line sight between Snape and McGonagall.

I've never even bought that non-verbal spells are faster to cast than verbal ones, the only advantage mentioned is that you gain the element of surprise in regards the type of magic.

It comes down to speed and talent at magic, when using Legilimency in combat, and Snape is one of the best in both, with better feats than Kingsley in these respects. He's moved impossible fast to Harry's eyes and effortlessly stomped Harry, who's fast himself, and used Legilimency in combat so I'am confident that he has the speed to use read Kingsley's mind.

The McGonagal fight is notable because Snape gives McGonagal the opportunity to confess to Harry's presence right before she tries to sucker punch him. This is when he moves impossibly fast but wouldn't it also be possible that he was in fact reading her mind and used it to predict her move before it was made and gain the upper hand in that single exchange, seeing as he nearly knocked her over right there. Either way it shows insane speed, enough, I think, to use Legilimency on Kingsley or it shows masterful in-combat Legilimency.

Plus I think your underestimating the significance of his stomping of Harry, considering Harry is himself freakishly fast, what with at time being sometimes fast enough to react to Voldemort, his numerous showings playing Quidditch and his feat of drawing and pointing his wand faster than Malfoy could touch his pocket. Beating Harry down without even really focusing on dueling is a fine feat of in-combat Legilimency.

Snape has mostly been just a teacher and potion maker for the last 15 years or so of his characters existence. Kingsley on the other hand has been a top auror for prob decades which means not only does he have great experience in wizard combat but he has prob never lost or else he would be dead. So I would go with Kingsley. Snape is very smart and very devious but I don't think he is a top notch combat wizard. I doubt he bothered to learn a lot of the spells a top auror would know like the back of their hand.

@kal-l: Snape broke out of the hold the suit of armor had on him when Flitwick enchanted it and then sent it flying back at them. He did fight them for a short time before leaving.

And given Snapes creation of spells and having the respect of Voldemort without sucking up to him, and being extremely powerful at occlumency it seems like he is more powerful. He has been fooling Voldemort for years. Theres also the flying with out a wand ability. From what I remember Kingsley is just a great duelist.

@alphaq: Snape manages to avoid the swarm dagger only thanks to the armor, did he anticipate that Minerva would use it we don't know it is highly unlikely or else he would have magically used the armor to protect himself instead of barely hiding himself behind something which can easily be enchanted to hold him which was the case by the way. In that situation he wasn't at all controling the fight, it was a standoff, In one hand it was highly risky for him to hid there seeing how proficient Minerva is at using surrounding at her advantage, in the other hand I think it's pretty obvious he couldn't use legilimency during the fight (he may have used it at the beginning but the quickness of the exchange made that impossible) so it may have been a break to gain the upper hand at their new eye contact.

I won't argue with the fact that nonverbal spell are shade more quick to cast.

We already had this talk and I believe you had convinced that Snape used legilimency on Mcgonagall. If this is the case it has nothing to do with reflexe pure but rather legilimency skills which help Snape to anticipate his opponent's first act leading to him gaining briefly the upper hand. At any rate Snape will have to subdue his opponent as he should have done with Minerva, and winning the fight will be another matter especially against Kingsley probably the best auror of his time who is trained extensively in advanced magical combat and other elements of practical defence. Snape stomped a 6th years Harry unable to use nonverbal spell but when you look at the fight you realize that Harry cast a stunnining spell who missed Snape which warned Snape of Harry's presence and intent to fight him, heck it is even noted that they look at each other a moment before Harry try to crucio him. Snape didn't surpass Harry incredible reflexes but overhelmed it with legilimency due to Harry poor skills. Actually in duel we have fairly exemple of Harry outstanding reflexe against Snape where he completly outclassed the latter as Snape had done with Mcgonagall (with or without legilimency).

That's an interesting debate we have there, at the end my point is legimilency may (or not) help Snape to gain the upper hand of the fight at the beginning but throughout the fight Snape won't be able to use it and I don't see him able to keep the upper hand against great dueller such as Flitwick, Dolohov or Kingsley for that matter.

I didn't mean that he was controlling every stroke of the fight, just that while he was working hard to survive we wasn't losing any ground despite holding back. I don't know if he used it in combat throughout their fight, while it's possible, there was other factors at play that could have halted him; broken lines of sight and intensity of the attack. The point was that it proves that reading a non-verbal spell on an opponents minds and casting a counterattack is not only possible, but effective. A good question is can Kingsley survive that first exchange, since I imagine it that Snape didn't beat McGonagall right there because he was holding back. Granted, all this makes the assumption he used Legilimency at the start, but it was hinted at.

Er, I'll say its a shade more speedy, but not drastically so, like some would suggest.

That exchange between Harry and Snape was out of combat, if Snape couldn't tag Harry without difficulty he wouldn't have easily put him on his ass when he went on the offensive,where Legilimency is less effective.

I can see him either beating Kinglsey on the first exchange where Legitimacy catches him off-guard or either protecting himself with Legilimency well enough to out-speed or out-power him. Just from what we've seen McGonagall's fighting style was the best for fighting Snape because it draws the attention away from the duelist, like when Dumbledore animated the statues to fight Voldemort in the Ministry. In this respect she's a tougher opponent to put down than Kingsley.

Indeed. I think that the most important things in HP duels are; skill, speed, power. The gap Snape has over Kingsley in speed and power is about the same as the gap Kingsley has over Snape in skill, that is decent to excellent. So when you factor in Legilimency which can bear the brunt of the his skill Snape's out talents become predominant.

@jayc1324: That's what you call fight ? You call this fighting Flitwick and Mcgonagall at the same time while they never fought together ?
Ok, to respond to you I'll say Kingsley fought several death eaters (he bested three of them) and even held off Voldemort during the same battle.

Snape has Voldemort respect due to having kill Dumbledore the man who prevented him to achieve his goals. What I ask you are feats of power much like Dumbledore, Voldemort, Barty Crouch or statement of him being a particularly powerful wizard. In order to claim that you need some back up. Again saying "extremely powerful at occlumency" is nonsense. This is skills, instead of saying that "Kingsley is a just a great duellist", you could have said "Kingsley is a just powerful duellist" yet you didn't misused the term here...

@alphaq: Again I repeat there is many way to subdue someone without killing him, he would have put Mcgonagall on her ass as he did with Harry if he could have, it would have certainly prevented him to almost getting killed. Snape had absolutely no reason to just stay in the defensive while his two fellows death eaters are probably out and he is surrounded by people wanting his head. I don't deny the possibility of reading non-verbal spell on an opponents minds I however disagree with the idea of doing so throughout a fight. It was never shown and while using legilimency requires a high degree of concentration and mental discipline, non verbal magic requires as much. In a duel between proficient duellist who cast so much spells that their wand are barely noticeable I don't see legilimency being practicable.

The fight between Harry and Snape is simple, we have Snape who each time Harry tried to curse him, countered him thanks to his legilimency skills albeit half of Harry spell were verbal and there wasn't any long exchanges. It was as though, there was multiple series of duel with Snape winning at each first hit due to his legilimency skills and Harry inconsistency. Now if we compare to another situation who happened earlier in HPB we see that Harry outclassed Snape in reflexes when the latter try to quickly curse him in DADA.

We agree on the most important things in duel however we disagree on the matter of speed and power. Why are you assuming that Snape is quicker ? He can get the upper hand at the outbreak of the fight but there is no reason to assume he is the quickest as we saw against Harry when Snape tried to quickly curse him but was countered by the young seeker who was quicker than him. This is his legilimency who gave him the upper hand not his pure reflex so why do you consider him quicker than Kingsley the man who is good enough to fight several opponents. Fighting multiple death eaters is a great feat of quickness seeing how many assault he has to counter while attacking each opponents at the same time. I'd say the same for power, where are the proof that Snape is so powerful ? I showed feats of power with Dumbledore and Barty Crouch Sr who were described as such. What are Snape feats or statement to back up his suppose high raw power ?

king

Switch the names

@kal-lFair enough, I think that Mcgonagall focus on the torch is due to her fighting skills who is different than most (although Dumbledore used the surrounding too in his fight against Voldemort) however Harry's lack of reaction is widely due to his lack of experience and to the strength of the counter. When we look at it both situations are similar except the fact that Harry and Snape were ready to fight and most of all that Harry used verbal spell which is easier to perfectly countered especially when you're already reading your opponent mind. The only other time he was put in his ass, they were really close so I assume the factor of distance played and Harry was using one of Snape's creation which I presume he knew perfectly how to counter.

I don't think it's fair to call Harry inexperienced anymore, he'd be a low tier combat wizard, he's fairly good. There is nothing to suggest Snape's counter affected him. The verbal spells did play a part but he could've managed without them, he outright says so. Even when they were at a distance Snape was reading his mind. Er, I don't see how distance could have played a difference and Snape was parrying all of Harry's other spells easily anyway, it's clear it was almost a game to him.

Let's see things in another way, Kingsley attacks, Snape counters, Snape doesn't lose anything nor Kingsley or Kingsley attacks, Snape counters then attempts to attack imo Kingsley will be able to quickly counter him as Mcgonagall was able to quickly counterattack him. On the offensive Snape never showed anything so amazing, the two times he used his speciality sectumsempra, he misaimed and the time he try to curse non-verbally an opponent he could dominate with defensive legilimency he was knocked off balance by the latter's shield charm verbally cast. We have to remember that all our conjectures are based on the idea that Snape will be able to use legilimency on Kingsley and that he a top auror who uses to fight dark wizard will be unable to solve the situation or rather not be able to fight Snape without making eye-contact.

I agree that Snape wouldn't do as well if he tried to bring the fight to Kingsley by taking the initiative but he's shown to be a defensive fighter, and why would he try to speed up a fight when he benefits from a slow fight, seeing as he's using Legilimency, something that requires focus.

Well he missed that Death Eater when he tried to use Sectumsempra but they were flying, it's not your average duel. When else did he use it? He was out of combat when Harry one-upped him, he was thought Harry was a noob he could push around, it's not the same as fighting for your life.

Kingsley has no Occlumency feats, let alone in combat Occlumency. It doesn't seem to require direct eye-contact, Snape was reading Harry's mind at a distance, and Harry said he couldn't see Snape's face at the time because of the shadows cast be a fire.

On the defensive, legilimency is useful in a defensive stance, it allows you to anticipate your opponent's next move, that's all. When you will be on your offensive, you will have to rely on your own physical abilities as we saw with the case of Snape and Harry who at that moment showed that he was the quickest.

It's not just good for fighting defensively, it's good for fighting to reactively. When Kingsley tries to curse Snape then Snape can attack with the advantage, all Snape has to do is not take the initiative. This is the reason Legilimency grants Snape the win.

What would be Kingsley circumstance ? He was clearly seen by Harry fighting a couple death eaters at the department of mysteries. He managed to fight several death eaters at the Battle of seven Potter and to defeat three of them while defending Hermione and even hold off Voldemort for a few time. Once again he managed to escape several death eaters during DH when he broke the taboo over Voldemort's name. Dude is an extremely proficient duellist who is used to fight multiple opponents and he proved it more than once. So no Snape isn't more shape for fighting than Kingsley the top auror who is actually doing it everyday and was trained for that purpose, there is a reason if he was the one who protected the ministry of magic and the prime minister.

Sorry, I was thinking of the time of DH that Ron mentioned that Kingsley was cornered and fought his way out. Fair enough on the ministry fight. The battle of the potters wasn't like most battles, what with the brooms and such, plus there is evidence to suggest that some of the Death Eaters fighters were fresh recruits of under mind control, since they appeared in numbers that were never seen before. Fodder, basically. And Kingsley never held off Voldemort, Kingsley says that he left quickly of his own accord. I also think I remember seeing a JKR quote saying that Voldemort never dueled Mad-Eye, so he doesn't seem to have been attacking the protectors. Might be wrong on that though.

Power and skills are completely different things, to back up your definition of magical power I'd say it can be measured by the strength of one spell. This is a good way to determine magical power of one individual as we saw with the case of Dumbledore or Barty Crouch described as powerful by their fellow. I don't even think that it is possible to increase magical power throughout life, it might be innate. What you're talking about with the amount of spell is knowledge that has nothing to do with power, if Snape used a memory charm nothing will tell you that his is as strong as Barty's against Bertha Jorkins, the same with Dumbledore's spell. Skills is something you are working on, something you polish, you improved every day while but power is another matter, being a book smart doesn't make you a powerful wizard, it will probably make you an accomplished wizard with a wide variety of skills. This is the reason why Harry was always more powerful than Hermione and since their 3rd year a better duellist than her despite her knowing more curse at that point.

Hmm. I see it like a wizards power is how well they can cast a spell, an example being how Lockhart's Memory Charms were excellent but his other spells were weak. It's not like HP magic ever made the caster tired, and we have never been told that one wizard has more raw power than another. Harry is a better fighter than Hermione, not a better magic user. Power is about two things, one is knowledge of spells, the other is ability to cast them well. Just because you are good at one spell doesn't mean you're good at another, like how Hermione was way better at Transfiguration than Harry, but he had a way stronger Patronus. Remember that time Hermione thought Dumbledore was tutoring Harry in really high-level defensive magic? This implies that anyone can learn the strongest of spells if they learn them well.

Snape is at least more versatile than Kingsley.

@alphaq: I don't think it's fair to call Harry inexperienced anymore, he'd be a low tier combat wizard, he's fairly good. There is nothing to suggest Snape's counter affected him. The verbal spells did play a part but he could've managed without them, he outright says so. Even when they were at a distance Snape was reading his mind. Er, I don't see how distance could have played a difference and Snape was parrying all of Harry's other spells easily anyway, it's clear it was almost a game to him.

Harry is a poor duellist with very little experience at the end of HPB. He isn't able to used more than 5 combats spell against an opponent at a row (to me has a huge potential but at the moment he wasn't good at all comapre to his DH version and nothing at all compared to Kingsley). What do you mean by Snape's counter affect him ? I just said that the conditions were perfect for Snape to counter him and actually after reading the part this is more clear that Snape used legilimency on Harry only when there was an eye-contact as it was noted at each time, the other time Snape was just countered Harry verbally assault.

I agree that Snape wouldn't do as well if he tried to bring the fight to Kingsley by taking the initiative but he's shown to be a defensive fighter, and why would he try to speed up a fight when he benefits from a slow fight, seeing as he's using Legilimency, something that requires focus.

Well he missed that Death Eater when he tried to use Sectumsempra but they were flying, it's not your average duel. When else did he use it? He was out of combat when Harry one-upped him, he was thought Harry was a noob he could push around, it's not the same as fighting for your life.

He missed James Potter, I'm fairly sure he wasn't targeting his cheek. Yet Kingsley was able to defeat 3 death eaters on the difficult conditions of the fights while protecting Hermione at the same time. As for Harry case I don't buy it he was clearly there eager to humiliate Harry, it is even noted that he quickly draw his wand, the accent was put on the quickness and Harry managed to verbally counter him instinctively due to his reflexes that outmatches him. This is the only case where you'll see Snape taking the first hit.

Kingsley has no Occlumency feats, let alone in combat Occlumency. It doesn't seem to require direct eye-contact, Snape was reading Harry's mind at a distance, and Harry said he couldn't see Snape's face at the time because of the shadows cast be a fire.

He doesn't need it. Snape needs to have an eye-contact with his opponents to be effective. As I said earlier each spell he countered easily were verbally and Snape even taunts him about that. He was able to counter him due to Harry inability to use nonverbal spell.

It's not just good for fighting defensively, it's good for fighting to reactively. When Kingsley tries to curse Snape then Snape can attack with the advantage, all Snape has to do is not take the initiative. This is the reason Legilimency grants Snape the win.

I have yet to see him Snape taking advantage of a fight, he didn't do so against Mcgonagall and I don't see him doing so against Kingsley a man shaped for fight everyday with a lot more experience in fighting that everyone.

Sorry, I was thinking of the time of DH that Ron mentioned that Kingsley was cornered and fought his way out. Fair enough on the ministry fight. The battle of the potters wasn't like most battles, what with the brooms and such, plus there is evidence to suggest that some of the Death Eaters fighters were fresh recruits of under mind control, since they appeared in numbers that were never seen before. Fodder, basically. And Kingsley never held off Voldemort, Kingsley says that he left quickly of his own accord. I also think I remember seeing a JKR quote saying that Voldemort never dueled Mad-Eye, so he doesn't seem to have been attacking the protectors. Might be wrong on that though.

Fair enough for Voldemort although nothing tell us Voldemort didn't try to curse him and went away. Actually I was just using it against people who claimed that Snape duels Mcgonagall, Flitwick and Sprout at the same time, the same way Voldemort fought Kingsley-Mcgonagall-Slughorn which is obviously wrong. As for the battle of 7potter, the conditions were harsh for everyone and among the death eaters Kingsley fought there were Travers a skilled death eaters responsible of the death of the Mckinnons a good family if we believe Hagrid. This one was at least a very experienced opponent. And as for the others they were obviously not Bellatrix or Dolohov but they were still several (and good enough to be death eater).

Hmm. I see it like a wizards power is how well they can cast a spell, an example being how Lockhart's Memory Charms were excellent but his other spells were weak. It's not like HP magic ever made the caster tired, and we have never been told that one wizard has more raw power than another. Harry is a better fighter than Hermione, not a better magic user. Power is about two things, one is knowledge of spells, the other is ability to cast them well. Just because you are good at one spell doesn't mean you're good at another, like how Hermione was way better at Transfiguration than Harry, but he had a way stronger Patronus. Remember that time Hermione thought Dumbledore was tutoring Harry in really high-level defensive magic? This implies that anyone can learn the strongest of spells if they learn them well.

But better magic user doesn't mean more powerful magically. Actually in magical classes such as transfiguration, or charms students learn to control their magic sometimes with calcul to know how to "dose" it. The memory charm will be a perfect example, both Lockhart and Crouch were successful in their spell, Crouch was accurate in the way it affected Bertha and Lockhart just didn't care he wanted to erase everything so let's say he was successful. However in Crouch's case despite succeeding in his spell there were some collateral damage due to the strength of the spell itself, she didn't lose more memories that intended (it would mean that he failed), she perpetually had memory trouble which was more due to the way Crouch strength affected her. We have another example with Dumbledore and Dawlish who was said to have been a really powerful wizard (yes that's not a joke^^) but he was hit so many time by Dumbledore that he finally was perpetually affected.

Hermione is more effective that Harry, she managed to successfully cast any spell she wants, but imo if Harry put as much as effort his spell will be stronger than Hermione due to his power.

@kal-l

Harry is a poor duellist with very little experience at the end of HPB. He isn't able to used more than 5 combats spell against an opponent at a row (to me has a huge potential but at the moment he wasn't good at all comapre to his DH version and nothing at all compared to Kingsley). What do you mean by Snape's counter affect him ? I just said that the conditions were perfect for Snape to counter him and actually after reading the part this is more clear that Snape used legilimency on Harry only when there was an eye-contact as it was noted at each time, the other time Snape was just countered Harry verbally assault.

Er, I was taking about the DH version of Harry and the McGonagall fight, by counter I meant Snape's shield charm. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

You'll note he observes Harry's mind is open before Harry got close enough to see him clearly. Never mind that at the start of the duel Snape was seen in profile, that doesn't sound like eye contact to me. Harry fantasized about reading Parvarti's mind in an exam, and he imagined it like he could open a window into the back of her head, so Harry doesn't seem to think that Legilimency requires eye contact at all, so that counts for something.

He missed James Potter, I'm fairly sure he wasn't targeting his cheek. Yet Kingsley was able to defeat 3 death eaters on the difficult conditions of the fights while protecting Hermione at the same time. As for Harry case I don't buy it he was clearly there eager to humiliate Harry, it is even noted that he quickly draw his wand, the accent was put on the quickness and Harry managed to verbally counter him instinctively due to his reflexes that outmatches him. This is the only case where you'll see Snape taking the first hit

That's only Snape as a child, it's not relevant.

I don't think it's fair to say Kingsley > three Death Eaters, assuming they were real Death Eaters. The problem is that an airborne duel is so different to a typical one, with things like luck, flying skills, accuracy, adaptability. It is a dueling feat but it's not a pure dueling feat. Compare Tonks saying that Bellatrix was giving it her all in their airborne duel, and the fact that Bellatrix had back-up, one would assume that Tonks>Bellatrix, but in a typical duel Bellatrix would stomp Tonks.

Fair enough for Voldemort although nothing tell us Voldemort didn't try to curse him and went away. Actually I was just using it against people who claimed that Snape duels Mcgonagall, Flitwick and Sprout at the same time, the same way Voldemort fought Kingsley-Mcgonagall-Slughorn which is obviously wrong. As for the battle of 7potter, the conditions were harsh for everyone and among the death eaters Kingsley fought there were Travers a skilled death eaters responsible of the death of the Mckinnons a good family if we believe Hagrid. This one was at least a very experienced opponent. And as for the others they were obviously not Bellatrix or Dolohov but they were still several (and good enough to be death eater).

Okay on the Voldemort thing.

Fair enough on the Travers thing. Death Eater status doesn't always mean much, only the experienced ones were deadly, some, like Wormtail, were fairly weak. Plus there are no prerequisites in flying to be a Death Eater, for all we know the good Death Eaters were just bad flyers. I'd say some of the Death Eaters were random wizards under mind control since that guy, forget his name, was under it. And random wizards can't even make shield charms, according to Fred and George.

But better magic user doesn't mean more powerful magically. Actually in magical classes such as transfiguration, or charms students learn to control their magic sometimes with calcul to know how to "dose" it. The memory charm will be a perfect example, both Lockhart and Crouch were successful in their spell, Crouch was accurate in the way it affected Bertha and Lockhart just didn't care he wanted to erase everything so let's say he was successful. However in Crouch's case despite succeeding in his spell there were some collateral damage due to the strength of the spell itself, she didn't lose more memories that intended (it would mean that he failed), she perpetually had memory trouble which was more due to the way Crouch strength affected her. We have another example with Dumbledore and Dawlish who was said to have been a really powerful wizard (yes that's not a joke^^) but he was hit so many time by Dumbledore that he finally was perpetually affected.

Hermione is more effective that Harry, she managed to successfully cast any spell she wants, but imo if Harry put as much as effort his spell will be stronger than Hermione due to his power.

Could you explain the underlined a bit more.

I looked into Bertha's Memory Charm and Voldemort says a powerful wizard can break the Memory Charm and Barty Jr. says that Voldemort tortured her until the Charm broke. So it seems that extreme pain or distress can break the Memory Charms. So it seems Memory Charms have two ways of measuring effectiveness quantity; how much is wiped and quality; how well the memories are repressed. Therefore it makes a lot more sense that the memory was repressed so deeply that it damaged her memory, by essentially reconstructing her mind. It was the effect of the spell, not the spell's power that caused the damage.

Being described as powerful just means you can cast powerful spells, not that you have some random amount of power in your body. That spell that was described as powerful that was cast was implied to be a very special spell, with JKR saying that she might reveal it's effects one day.

The thing is that spells can be more powerful than another spell, not that wizards can be more powerful than another. It has never been hinted that two equally talented wizards can have differing levels of strength in their spells, it's an unnecessary variable that doesn't justify it's place in the equation.

I'll just say why I think Snape wins again; he has nigh-perfect timing afforded by Legilimency and either attack when Kingsley tries to attack, like he did to Harry, or defend when Kingsley tried to, like he did with McGonagall. Both of whom you believe to be faster than Snape with no Legilimency.

@alphaq:

Er, I was taking about the DH version of Harry and the McGonagall fight, by counter I meant Snape's shield charm. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

You'll note he observes Harry's mind is open before Harry got close enough to see him clearly. Never mind that at the start of the duel Snape was seen in profile, that doesn't sound like eye contact to me. Harry fantasized about reading Parvarti's mind in an exam, and he imagined it like he could open a window into the back of her head, so Harry doesn't seem to think that Legilimency requires eye contact at all, so that counts for something.

Let's see how it is, only times Snape managed to perfectly repel (making his opponents lose balance) spells each time he looked into his opponents eyes. The others times Harry was using verbal spells which made him able to repel it due to the lack of surprise.

I don't see why the opinion of Harry an almost stranger in the minds art should count for something especially as he is fantasizing, there is also no hint about the manners.

That's only Snape as a child, it's not relevant.

I don't think it's fair to say Kingsley > three Death Eaters, assuming they were real Death Eaters. The problem is that an airborne duel is so different to a typical one, with things like luck, flying skills, accuracy, adaptability. It is a dueling feat but it's not a pure dueling feat. Compare Tonks saying that Bellatrix was giving it her all in their airborne duel, and the fact that Bellatrix had back-up, one would assume that Tonks>Bellatrix, but in a typical duel Bellatrix would stomp Tonks.

Fair enough on the Travers thing. Death Eater status doesn't always mean much, only the experienced ones were deadly, some, like Wormtail, were fairly weak. Plus there are no prerequisites in flying to be a Death Eater, for all we know the good Death Eaters were just bad flyers. I'd say some of the Death Eaters were random wizards under mind control since that guy, forget his name, was under it. And random wizards can't even make shield charms, according to Fred and George.

That's still happened, Snape failed both time to hit his target. We can turn around , it will still be the same, the two only times we saw him using sectumsempra he misaimed. That's my point.

I don't want to go into a debate about the death eaters flying skills, I know they aren't quidditch player but I don't see why we have to assume that they are all very bad. Besides, my point wasn't on Kingsley's opponents quality or him being able two fight the three them (although he showed several time that he can fight off multiple opponents) but more on the difficult conditions that all people had to suffer and it was even worse for the senior Order members who had to fight while ensuring their fellows safety. Yet Kingsley managed to strike 3 death eaters thanks to an accuracy which Snape seems to lack.

Being described as powerful just means you can cast powerful spells, not that you have some random amount of power in your body. That spell that was described as powerful that was cast was implied to be a very special spell, with JKR saying that she might reveal it's effects one day.

Supposing it is true, what powerful spell did Snape use ? Who did ever noted him as a powerful wizard as Barty Crouch was ? What are the proofs that he is much more powerful that Kingsley.

I'll just say why I think Snape wins again; he has nigh-perfect timing afforded by Legilimency and either attack when Kingsley tries to attack, like he did to Harry, or defend when Kingsley tried to, like he did with McGonagall. Both of whom you believe to be faster than Snape with no Legilimency.

In order to use legilimency on Kingsley he will need to make eye-contact with him.

As for the underlined I saw that JKR stated that transfiguration was a scientific subject and there was a mathematical formula which included bodyweight, viciousness, wand power, concentration and a fifth unknown variable. (My bad, I just realized that the formula is in the movie so just ignore. However I don't remember having seen this in the movie... I thought it came from some JKR interview).

may go either way

Let's see how it is, only times Snape managed to perfectly repel (making his opponents lose balance) spells each time he looked into his opponents eyes. The others times Harry was using verbal spells which made him able to repel it due to the lack of surprise.

Snape outright stated he could see into Harry's mind before they were close, and before they could see each other clearly. I don't see how range, or any other factor, could have played a part.

I don't see why the opinion of Harry an almost stranger in the minds art should count for something especially as he is fantasizing, there is also no hint about the manners.

I'm not saying it's thats proof, it just possibly hints at how JKR intended Legilimency to be depicted.

We know that magic can be cast without a wand and without an incantation, like students before they are trained or how Voldemort didn't fall to his death when Harry broke Lucius's wand, so it seems skilled Legilimens are essentially casting a spell without any of these prerequisites, since Legilimency is just like that; a spell, we see Snape cast it normally in his Occlumency lessons. If we look at any other spells cast in this fashion eye contact was never required.

That's still happened, Snape failed both time to hit his target. We can turn around , it will still be the same, the two only times we saw him using sectumsempra he misaimed. That's my point.

He's accurate enough to tag Kingsley, so it's irrelevant. He's hit people before.

I don't want to go into a debate about the death eaters flying skills, I know they aren't quidditch player but I don't see why we have to assume that they are all very bad. Besides, my point wasn't on Kingsley's opponents quality or him being able two fight the three them (although he showed several time that he can fight off multiple opponents) but more on the difficult conditions that all people had to suffer and it was even worse for the senior Order members who had to fight while ensuring their fellows safety. Yet Kingsley managed to strike 3 death eaters thanks to an accuracy which Snape seems to lack.

Fair enough on all this.

Supposing it is true, what powerful spell did Snape use ? Who did ever noted him as a powerful wizard as Barty Crouch was ? What are the proofs that he is much more powerful that Kingsley.

Flying, using non-verbal magic without wandwork (from what we can see), creating and using extremely impressive healing spells, an advanced branch of magic, being able to cast a large amount of combat spells in his first year in Hogwarts, being a Hogwarts teacher in DADA and Potions, being a amazing Potion maker, using Transfiguration in a duel, being tutored by Voldemort, making his own spells. His clearly knows strong spells.

In order to use legilimency on Kingsley he will need to make eye-contact with him.

They only really have to be in clear sight of each other for it to work.

As for the underlined I saw that JKR stated that transfiguration was a scientific subject and there was a mathematical formula which included bodyweight, viciousness, wand power, concentration and a fifth unknown variable. (My bad, I just realized that the formula is in the movie so just ignore. However I don't remember having seen this in the movie... I thought it came from some JKR interview).

Okay.

Do you think we've put up all the points we're going to at this point? Interesting discussion, but tell me when you think we've pretty much laid everything bare.

@alphaq:

Snape outright stated he could see into Harry's mind before they were close, and before they could see each other clearly. I don't see how range, or any other factor, could have played a part.

"Twenty yards apart, he and Harry looked at each other before raising their wands simultaneously."

"Harry was mere feet away now and he could see Snape's face clearly at last"

HPB chapter 28

Snape looked into her eyes.

DH chapter 30

You see each time Snape used legilimency in combat (making his opponent lose his balance) he was looking into there was eye-contact.

We know that magic can be cast without a wand and without an incantation, like students before they are trained or how Voldemort didn't fall to his death when Harry broke Lucius's wand, so it seems skilled Legilimens are essentially casting a spell without any of these prerequisites, since Legilimency is just like that; a spell, we see Snape cast it normally in his Occlumency lessons. If we look at any other spells cast in this fashion eye contact was never required.

Well... Not sure what you're saying but each spell has his way of working. During their training session Snape and Harry were facing each others so I don't see why it should be different in while using wandlessly especially as non-verbal magic and wandless magic are more complicated and less effective as verbal as you can see with Dolohov curse.

He's accurate enough to tag Kingsley, so it's irrelevant. He's hit people before.

Who did he hit in a true duel ? Lockhart ? A poor duellist that Snape didn't even take seriously, no pressure there before casting his spell. In a death situation I never saw him strike anyone not that I don't see him unable to, but in a duel curse doesn't always strike their target, so I think this is bold to assume that Snape will counterattackoneshot Kingsley especially as he was never noted as that good.

Flying, using non-verbal magic without wandwork (from what we can see), creating and using extremely impressive healing spells, an advanced branch of magic, being able to cast a large amount of combat spells in his first year in Hogwarts, being a Hogwarts teacher in DADA and Potions, being a amazing Potion maker, using Transfiguration in a duel, being tutored by Voldemort, making his own spells. His clearly knows strong spells.

Ha. We completely disagree on that point as I mentioned on one post earlier having a wide variety of skills has nothing to do with power. Hermione isn't a more powerful witch than Harry or Crouch yet her memory charm on Dolohow and Rowle wasn't broken unlike Barty's. Slughorn (and Snape by the way) was never said as very powerful wizard but as a good wizard despite all his skills. At that point I don't think our mind are likely to change but the more "powerful" (I'd say deadliest) curse Snape ever used besides the killing curse is "sectumsempra" which Harry was able to cast.

Also talking about skills, Kingsley was an expert in at least Charms, Transfiguration, Defensive Magic, Herbology and Potions (they were subjects Harry had to take for his NEWT in order to become auror). It speaks for his versatility and his expertise in many magical disciplines.

Do you think we've put up all the points we're going to at this point? Interesting discussion, but tell me when you think we've pretty much laid everything bare.

I think we went pretty much around it, just to finish I just want to point out why I think Kingsley is the winner here. To become an auror you have to undergo a stringent series of character and aptitude tests to show you react well under pressure, to train extensively in advanced magical combat and other elements of practical defence. You see he was a top auror trained in every martial magic so I think it bold to assume that a simple area of magic would be a solution to everything and auror once again people trained extensively in combat wouldn't have had the idea learn how to use it or to counter it at the very least (I'm not implying that he is one). Ted Tonks told that Nymphadora had been in a lot of tough situations while she was only a newbie compared to Kingsley who was the top at the time. It shows how experienced must be the man. At the end I'm not saying that aurors are invincible as this is obviously wrong, I'm saying that in order to beat an auror you will have to surpass him in pure duelling skills. As for that matter Kingsley has the upper hand.

"Twenty yards apart, he and Harry looked at each other before raising their wands simultaneously."

"Harry was mere feet away now and he could see Snape's face clearly at last"

HPB chapter 28

Snape looked into her eyes.

DH chapter 30

You see each time Snape used legilimency in combat (making his opponent lose his balance) he was looking into there was eye-contact.

Between the two first quotes was when Snape gives us the line about Harry's attacks being useless until her closes his mind. I don't consider twenty yards close enough that they were outright looking into the other's eye's, it's more like they were watching each other closely, like, they were looking at each other's upper bodies and faces.

Well... Not sure what you're saying but each spell has his way of working. During their training session Snape and Harry were facing each others so I don't see why it should be different in while using wandlessly especially as non-verbal magic and wandless magic are more complicated and less effective as verbal as you can see with Dolohov curse.

What I was saying is that Legilimency may not be a kind of sub-set to wizardy, but more simply a spell that magical experts cast without wandwork or incantations, like wild magic. And since no other spell has ever required eye-contact with a victim then it stands to reason Legilimency wouldn't. I'm trying to theorize that Legilimency is actually just a spell people like Voldemort and Snape have become so good at that they don't need wandwork or incantations. It's only a possibility, of course.

I don't see why eye contact with the victim of Legilimency is important, it's not like other series where there are explanations like optical nerves and the like. Legilimency might very well be like the time Snape wandlessly tried to save Harry back in Book 1, it's not like a broom has eyes, it's only the caster's line of sight that matters.

Legilimency does seem to be stronger when an incantation is used.

Who did he hit in a true duel ? Lockhart ? A poor duellist that Snape didn't even take seriously, no pressure there before casting his spell. In a death situation I never saw him strike anyone not that I don't see him unable to, but in a duel curse doesn't always strike their target, so I think this is bold to assume that Snape will counterattackoneshot Kingsley especially as he was never noted as that good.

He hit Harry. Not really, if he read Kingsley's mind and attacks at the right moment.

Ha. We completely disagree on that point as I mentioned on one post earlier having a wide variety of skills has nothing to do with power. Hermione isn't a more powerful witch than Harry or Crouch yet her memory charm on Dolohow and Rowle wasn't broken unlike Barty's. Slughorn (and Snape by the way) was never said as very powerful wizard but as a good wizard despite all his skills. At that point I don't think our mind are likely to change but the more "powerful" (I'd say deadliest) curse Snape ever used besides the killing curse is "sectumsempra" which Harry was able to cast.

Also talking about skills, Kingsley was an expert in at least Charms, Transfiguration, Defensive Magic, Herbology and Potions (they were subjects Harry had to take for his NEWT in order to become auror). It speaks for his versatility and his expertise in many magical disciplines.

I didn't say Barty's charm was weak because torture broke, I was making an observation into the nature of Memort Charms as a whole.

Fair enough on the rest.

I think we went pretty much around it, just to finish I just want to point out why I think Kingsley is the winner here. To become an auror you have to undergo a stringent series of character and aptitude tests to show you react well underpressure, to train extensively in advanced magical combat and other elements of practical defence. You see he was a top auror trained in every martial magic so I think it bold to believe that a simple area of magic would be a solution to everything and auror once again people trained extensively in combat wouldn't have had the idea learn how to use it or counter it at the very least (I'm not implying that he is one). Ted Tonks told that Nymphadora had been in a lot of tough situations while she was only a newbie compared to Kingsley who was the top at the time. It shows how experienced must be the man. At the end I'm not saying that aurors are invincible as this is obviously wrong, I'm saying that in order to beat an auror you will have to surpass him in pure duelling skills.

Okay, nice discussion, mate. I think Snape wins mostly because of Legilimency, although I concede he might be a little slower than Kingsley, although Snape likely has more spells.

Flawed argument.

I have to read the rest of the thread. This looks like a good discussion. Right now my hypothesis would be Kingsley winning.

Explain, good ser. I've elaborated a lot more in later posts.

You're kind'a assuming Kingsley doesn't have a very specific skill simply because we never saw him use it. It's flawed because you're only arguing it because it gives Snape an easy win and can't be proven wrong despite Kingsley being an Auror who's entire job involves fighting dark wizards. If he had a gaping vulnerability to Legilimency he wouldn't be very good at his job when he's suppose to be among the top in his field.

People saying strength only matters totally disregard the fact that a bunch of Hogwarts 5th graders got through a fight with powerful death eaters. Duels are not only about but how good one's magic is, it is about experience, dodging, knowing the right spells, reaction speed, and a tad of luck.

While Snape is probably the slightly more gifted and powerful of the two (he stale-mated McGonagoll, who was said to be a very powerful witch, and was probably holding back, and he created various spells), Kingsley has way more actual dueling experience. He chases bad guys for a living. He also has some good dueling feats, such as being able to battle with Voldemort and dealing with 2 death eaters are once. Especially that last thing is an amazing feat. Snape has not been dueling for years.

Legilimency is not said to work on very experienced wizards in a combat situation. It works in a non-combat enviroment and on enraged, underaged wizards who are just throwing spells. Snape could have easily deflected those anyway.

Kingsley wins after a (very?) difficult fight. The power gap is smaller than the skill gap.