Severus Snape vs Bellatrix Lestrange

@metaljimmor:

Give specific instances and context to match.

The fact that you think wizards and witches can simply disarm or stun each other with such ease shows that we see these duels I. A completely different way. Any high level wizard is going to block your simple disarm or stun spells more often then not.

@cregan_stark:

Ah, yeah thanks for the recal; she went kinda momma bear after one of her kids, or was it the hubby who was hurt by Bellatrix? Which kind of points out to willpower and state of mind playing part in how strong your spells are.

@dbzk1999: I think its like bringing a taser/bean bag gun to actual gun fight. You don't taze the guy if his shooting at you with an intent to kill.

And guys don't forget that Harry & DA (Dumbledore's army)were barely adults in the series so its actually feat in itself that they were able to put up a decent fight at all against seasoned spellcasters at the ministry of Magic and doesn't necessarily mean that the guys losing to the kids were a bad wizards.

Two people need to do a Harry Potter CaV.

Still with what I said.

it's Legilimency not Legitimacy lol

@metaljimmor: @cregan_stark:

I have to agree with metaljimmor here, the primary reason for minerva to be in a hospital seemed to be the sheer number of spells that hit her:

Harry has been immobilized, more than once, and there was never any discomfort mentioned. In fact, when dumbledore's immobilization was lifted because of the whole mess, he was able to run around.

And afterwards:

Seems perfectly fine to me.

There are many options to subdue someone without causing them harm in the Harry Potter world. Not wanting to kill someone is no excuse to not quickly win a duel against someone if you are legitimately the superior duelist.

Seconded. Snape wasn't trying to kill harry either, yet he managed to sweep the floor with him:

Minerva and snape, however, were quite even.

Anyway, I just wanted to point how the availability of non-fatal spells. As for the actual debate, I actually do find Snape the better duelist compared to Bellatrix. Simply because while they both have high showings, only Bellatrix has an extremely low showing in that she lost a straight duel to a house wife who, as far as we know, as no real dueling skill. Bellatrix is too prone to playing around where as Snape is all business.

Here, however, I disagree. She was playing around because molly was badly outmatched. Considering how much she hates snape, she's more likely to be serious in this match.

@cregan_stark Okay, sure. I did enjoy contemplating HP again, so thanks.

@martinceld Whoops, I thought HP had become so popular the 'Legitimacy' was actually a word!

@i_like_swords Noob question: what's is a CaV?

@princearagorn1 Yes, I always thought that spells like that don't add together but rather multiply with the number of spells. Like how a dragon can easily tank dozens of stunners if they hit it separately but seven (the strongest magical number) will KO one every time. Not really proven but I like the sound of it.

Well Snape used Legilimency, was much faster and was significantly more powerful than Harry, their fight isn't comparable.

Regarding Bellatrix's mood:

@metaljimmor Well to be fair Snape's talent was Dark Arts and he would be restricted from using his most powerful spells. Some spells are simply more powerful than other, the killing curse, Dolohov's spell and Fiendfyre are examples of dark magic that is very difficult to block. Stunning isn't the be all and end all and is only a common spell, we know certain spells fall in and out of popularity. It is easy and quick but when someone has the mastery to sling off stronger spells just as casually they will be at a disadvantage when just using it. I see where your coming from that if he was so much better her he could have stunned her and I agree.

I think what we need to remember is that JK Rowling would eviscerate power levels in a heartbeat if she thought it would make a good point, she listed the reason that Molly beats Bellatrix as symbolic to Crazy love < Maternal love. I wouldn't consider losing to Molly a low showing because she is a complete unknown, aside from earning an exceeds expectations in Charms and being good at domestic magic.

I could also see a good argument being made for McGonagal > Snape, though I wouldn't buy it she did fling off more spells and he had to use the environment to survive, to me it looked like he could even have been losing slightly.

@alphaq: Challenge a Viner. It's where two users debate a fight, just between themselves, and then others vote on who put out the better argument.

@alphaq: However, after that:

It's like a black family curse. I don't think either are that careless usually though.

@i_like_swords Ah, I see. Thanks.

@princearagorn1 *cheeks redden in embarrassment*

Sorry bout that, and thanks for the info.

Snape handily; as far as I know the only person who's ever implied or stated Bellatrix is the most powerful Death Eater is Bellatrix herself, and the word of an insane narcissist is hardly reliable. Snape might have better reflexes as well; both he and Bellatrix faced Harry when he was enraged and trying to kill them, and Snape blocked all of Harry's attacks easily while Bellatrix was actually hit and hurt by Harry's Cruciatus Curse, even though she recovered fairly quickly.

@alphaq: You're welcome. And no need to be embarrassed :)

@saren While I think Snape is probably slightly faster he only outpaced Harry so drastically because he read Harry's mind with Legilimency and all of his reflex feats could be rendered moot because of Legilimency, whereas Bellatrix has the feet of turning and deflecting Harry's spell with her back turned and killing Dobby with a thrown knife which was described as blurring and while he was dissaparating (although she has been caught off guard multiple times so she can hardly block or dodge spell after it has been fired without preparing to do so).

@alphaq: The book's been out for eight years and the movie for three. I think we can do away with the spoilers.

That's fair enough, though Snape did block a whole swarm of knives that McGonagall fired at him. Bellatrix is likely a highly skilled Legilimens herself, since she trained Draco in Occlumency well enough that he could block Snape from reading his mind, and if Snape's training sessions are any indication Occlumency and Legilimency are complementary requirements for someone trying to teach them. But even before Harry even knew what Occlumency was, he could hit Bellatrix. As to whether Bellatrix could block Snape from reading her mind --- she likely could, given Draco, but Occlumency works by purging emotion and Malfoy spent that entire year as an emotionless zombie. Bellatrix is usually an extremely emotional person. I always picture her as the loudest person in the room.

@saren:

It was implied by either author or voldemort himself was bellatrix was his best lieutenant in book seven:

As for their encounter at the ministry, she was mocking him at the time - it was made clear she was too much for him if she is serious:

Not just that, she was shocked by harry using an unforgivable curse - snape himself was caught off guard by harry back in third year.

As for reflexes, she was the only one who managed to block dumbledore's spell, not just that, she knocked back kingsley:

Kingsley was arguably a top-tier duelist himself, guard to muggle PM and all.

@saren Okay, I didn't want to presume too much.

I don't think that blocking those knives is really that impressive because they were described as 'pursuing' daggers, although by an omniscient narrator, so I took it that they were slow enough that their trajectory could be judged by the spectators of the duel, therefore they were probably slower than a typical spell. Although thinking back Snape couldn't have been reading McGonagal's mind in that part of the fight because the knives used to be smoke, so he might not have had line of sight, so yes it's very impressive but not outside Bellatrix's abilities.

She likely doesn't have the skill or inclination to use Legilimency in battle, although IIRC she was taken by surprise when Harry tagged her. I think Legilimency is like using Apparation in combat, it takes extraordinary skill to make it combat feasible.

I honestly have no idea if he could penetrate her mind. Rowling has said that Malfoy was talented at Occlumency because being a bully he was good a repressing his emotions. Bellatrix is strange in that she is free of certain emotions (empathy) but enslaved to others (infatuation) and we have no idea if she is skilled enough to repel his mind reading or even if she would think to protect her mind, although I think she would. I give her the benefit of the doubt though in this fight.

@princearagorn1: Best could mean skill, I guess, though I'm more inclined to believe it refers to her loyalty given that Bellatrix was without a doubt the Death Eater who drank Voldemort's Kool-Aid the most. In terms of skill, based on what we've read I think Antonin Dolohov was the most skilled Death Eater (excluding Snape from consideration). Moody was considered the greatest Auror of all time, and when the Order split into seven teams to sneak Harry out of Privet Drive, Voldemort himself went straight for Moody because he was convinced Harry would be protected by the strongest from a group that included Kingsley, Tonks and Lupin. Dolohov fought and beat Moody (and apparently quite badly) at the Department of Mysteries, and like Snape, he has the ability to create his own spells, given that the powerful non-verbal curse he uses as a signature move is referred to exclusively as "Dolohov's curse". At the final battle in the seventh book, Dolohov is defeated by Flitwick, a professor and former dueling champion, while Bellatrix is held to a stalemate by Hermione, Luna and Ginny, a group that the narrator qualifies as collectively her equal in skill even though they have nowhere near her experience even with all put together.

Based solely off how Occlumency is supposed to work, it seems like Bellatrix would be terrible at it; the very first time she meets Harry, she nearly bursts a blood vessel when he says Voldemort's name, and later gets absolutely terrified when she learns that the prophecy was destroyed. More than infatuation, she's frequently gripped by anger and sadistic glee. She wears that tiny black heart quite prominently on her sleeve.

Per benefit of the doubt, it's likely someone on her level has some amount of defense against Legilimency, but Snape seems like he could rival Dumbledore or Voldemort in that particular field, so it's questionable if it's enough.

Only person Snape lost to was Voldemort. Bellatrix got beat by Ron's mom

@saren 'drank Voldemort's Kool-Aid the most' *snigger*

Yeah I would say she is 'best' because of loyalty and devotion. Now she is still a high-level Death Eater but when someone like Lucius Malfoy, who lost to Lupin IIRC, can be favored by Voldemort it isn't a mind-blowing credential.

I think Dolohov is very dangerous indeed but can be a jobber: he lost to the trio in the cafe via sneak attack and lost to Harry in the Department of Mysteries because of overconfidence. Speed wise he isn't even faster than Harry and although he seemed pretty smart (he used an explosion spell in the cafe because he knew Harry has invisible) he could just get by with one dangerous curse. Yaxley was able to stalemate Flitwick, so he should be a match for Dolohov.

I think the problem is how much value you place on fodder wizards is important because for all we know stalemating three decent witches is greatly superior to facing one powerful one. Snape would definitely win if we assume McGonagal and Bellatrix are equally vulnerable/invulnerable to Legilimency and if we take the McGonagal > 4 Aurors quote in the best possible light, but honestly otherwise it is very close indeed.

Yes, while Bellatrix should be terrible at Occlumency I think it is possible that because JK Rowling said unemphatic people are good at Occlumency she could be considered good at it. So there's mixed messages right there.

I don't think Dumbledore or Snape have any decent feats of Legilimency power, they just have excellent feats of Occlumency. Plus I doubt he can use his Legilimency to it's best in a fight. Snape's in-combat Legilimency vs Bellatrix's in-combat Occlumency has too many subjective factors to accurately quantify.

snape one shots bellatrix

@saren:

Best could mean skill, I guess, though I'm more inclined to believe it refers to her loyalty given that Bellatrix was without a doubt the Death Eater who drank Voldemort's Kool-Aid the most. In terms of skill, based on what we've read I think Antonin Dolohov was the most skilled Death Eater (excluding Snape from consideration). Moody was considered the greatest Auror of all time, and when the Order split into seven teams to sneak Harry out of Privet Drive, Voldemort himself went straight for Moody because he was convinced Harry would be protected by the strongest from a group that included Kingsley, Tonks and Lupin. Dolohov fought and beat Moody (and apparently quite badly) at the Department of Mysteries, and like Snape, he has the ability to create his own spells, given that the powerful non-verbal curse he uses as a signature move is referred to exclusively as "Dolohov's curse". At the final battle in the seventh book, Dolohov is defeated by Flitwick, a professor and former dueling champion, while Bellatrix is held to a stalemate by Hermione, Luna and Ginny, a group that the narrator qualifies as collectively her equal in skill even though they have nowhere near her experience even with all put together.

That is true. Dolohov was arguably the toughest death eater from what we have seen of him. And unless I missed something, Kingsley was the only other person voldemort checked, though he went off when harry used disarming charm.

However, you're underestimating hermione a little. She has taken dolohov more than once, silencing him at the ministry and stunning him in their encounter at the bar (book 7) - though both encounters were group against group so it could be dismissed as luck. Like the others, she was creating her own spells from the very first year, exceptional in about everything, better track record a clear edge in speed over both Harry and Ron.

Taking two people on along with her is still an impressive showing - and even then, she was extremely close to killing ginny.

@princearagorn1: Well Hermione is an overachieving child prodigy in almost everything she does. Only thing she was bad at were probably Quiddish and Trelawney's classes about various soothsaying methods.

@princearagorn1 JK Rowling has said that Harry is better than Hermione in a duel and has feats to match, but yeah she is as good as any other student. And I doubt Ron is faster Harry has better speed feats. What spells did Hermione create?

Thanks.

where would you guys rank flitwick, aberforth and slughorn?

@cregan_stark said:

1) That's a good feat but I fail to see how relevant it is in a duel.

2) That's right Snape has great knowledge in both areas, but again it doesn't make him the formidable dueller you portray him to be.

3) Firstly that's wrong, Snape had great knowledge in dark arts which make him more reliable to deal with some dark wounds however I doubt he is particularly skilled in that area. Secondly that's irrelevant in battle, nobody deny that he is a knowledgeable wizard with great skills in many areas such as potions, charms.

4) You have to understand that being gifted in dark arts doesn't make you a the best dueller for all that.

5) Ability to conceal your mind is occlumency.

6) This is the contrary, Snape's best feat in that area is his fight against Mcgonagall.

Ability to fly doesn't make Snape any better in duel. The fact that Voldemort couldn't read his mind has nothing to do with power but instead his occlumency skills. He never hold off several professors.

Bellatrix takes it, she has better feat by far in that area and is portrayed as an aurorslayer.

@kal-l Bellatrix stalemated Hermione, Luna and Ginny, all solid duelist who were maybe as good as aurors but assuming McGonagal was really able to beat four aurors, like Pomfrey implies then Snape's feat of stalemating McGonagal trumps Bellatrix's.

Snape but bella is hot as hell

Pomfrey never implies that Mcgonagall could beat four aurors at the times, she said no one among the four would have dared attacking her.

"As if one of them could have Stunned Minerva McGonagall face-on by daylight!"

No, it was never a matter of daring, it was a matter of ability. I could understand if you interpret that quote that to mean that she could have beaten any of them in a one on one duel, but I think it means she could beat all of them.

Dude you realize how senseless this is ? Nobody can take 4 aurors at the same times besides Dumbledore and Voldemort, aurors aren't some punks you can shit on easily, they are people trained for fighting, trained to catch dark wizards. Pomfrey stated "one of them" but she never said that she could have taken 4 aurors, her statement was more out of anger than anything.

He has moved impossibly fast and is renowned for his raw magical ability, and moreso than Bellatrix. Her best showing of magical expertise is being thought by Voldemort, something Snape can boast of too, along with his impressive mastery of many different types of magic. While she may win because of skill I think his skill showing of stalemating McGonagall a renowned witch makes up for it.

I'd edit that sh!t, like I have, lest a mod warns you.

I concede it was hasty of me to say McGonagall>4 Auror but I think it is fair to say that a middle ground is more accurate: while Pomfrey is probably overrating if she thinks McGonagal can beat four Aurors but she is probably underrating if she thinks McGonagall is only superior to Aurors. Anyway it shows that McGonagall is held in the highest regard by someone who both knows McGonagall and magic well, and I think it is fair to put McGonagall in Bellatrix's level in overall ability if not dueling skill.

Firstly I don't even think Pomfrey implied that Mcgonagall could beat 4 aurors but that she could any fighter who dared stunned her cowardly. The aurors are supposed to be the best fighters, they are wizards who got top marks at Hogwarts and who after undergoing a stringent series of character and aptitude tests are trained extensively in advanced magical combat and other elements of practical defence. There is no shame to be less skilled that an auror in duel though imo Mcgonagall is extremely skilled and could beat one (Tonks for example) and I completely agree with you about her overall abilities, she great witch extremely talented.

@alphaq I don't know what you're talking about when saying he moved impossibly fast because in physical abilities Bellatrix outmatch him clearly. The same with raw magical ability, Snape is very knowledgeable but as I say knowledge is good but practice is more. Snape's beat feat is his fight against Mcgonagall who only lasted few seconds, and Snape managed to survived only thanks to the armors, I'd say it was only the warm up, it's not enough to call it a stalemate.

Snape.

Bellatrix has amazing feats in this area, she managed to defeat excellent auror such as Kingsley Shacklebolt and her defeat against Molly is vastly due to her underestimating of the witch while Snape has nothing who put him at Bellatrix level, in fact she is already said to be the best lieutenant, she was shown to be the last one standing besides Voldemort.

Snape is an accomplished wizard skilled in many areas however he isn't described as a great duellist.

He moved impossibly fast when he was attacked by McGonagall, because Harry says that he had no chance of reacting and yet he was able to so fast that he gained the upper hand because of speed.

I see it more along the lines of Snape being Hermione, he is theoretically more powerful and has the better showings and credentials for raw magic, but Bellatrix is Harry, in that she probably has the dueling skill.

He survived because he was able to use the environment to his advantage, and had the duel continued he had a counterattack readily available, namely blasting the armor at McGonagall like he did the professors. And he wasn't even trying to hurt anyone in the first place.

I think I'll concede for now, although it should be a decent duel.

You definitely got my point in the bold, Snape is more knowledge than practice, while Bella has prodigious duelling skills

1) Snape didn't "move" fast, he reacted faster than Mcgonagall. In a duel the reflexes are highly important, this is the reason why Snape could beat her (in her old state) because he is more physically fit. However the fight was too quick to say that Snape could have done better during that fight, imo she is extremely skilled and her transfiguration skills can make her win against almost everyone but in her current state she is not in shape for fighting, she must have been a hell dueller in her prime.

It should be noted that it is possible that Snape might have been reading her mind, since we have no idea if she knows Occlumency.

I don't think she slowed down all that much, wizards do seem to age extremely well.

Definitely Snape. He was the right hand man of the 2 strongest wizards of the time.

Bellatrix lost to Molly whereas Snape was making his own spells and learned how to fly from Voldemort himself. That's an honor and ability Bellatrix was not given, despite being Voldy's #1 groupie.

Bellatrix has this. She has way better feats (defeated Black, was winning against 3 opponents at once, reacted to Dumbledore's attack) and she is hyped up to be one of the strongest death eaters. Snape is ok but definitely overrated.

Her losing to Molly is one of the worst cases of PIS in the entire series.

probably snape

I think the whole Molly thing was a special case, she had more to fight for due to her children and Bellatrix let her guard down initially and let Molly build up momentum.

I don't think losing to Molly like that proves one thing or the other. I think it's a special case.

Bellatrix has some good feats, she defeated Sirius and Kingsley. And noone should use Snape ''killing'' Dumbledore as a feat, because Albus and Severus made arrangements for Snape to kill him so that Voldemort would think Snape was on his side, that death was staged/planned

Bellatrix stomps. As far as I can remember Snape was only in one duel which he ran away from. Bellatrix was probably the third most powerful duelist after Voldemort, and Dumbledore.

Shape auto loses on this site simply because he didn't fight anyone. He had to tow the line and play both sides which meant no real duels, even when he fought the Harry's and the teachers he held back. His implied power and knowledge puts him far above what we've seen from Bella but if we are going purely by feats then she has more.

It has been shown time and time again that duelling prowess =/= magical abilities and knowledge. Knowing how to create spells is a totally different skill from dueling, just like transfiguration is a totally different skill. Sure, someone who knows a lot of spells and can use them in rapid succession/non-verbally has a huge advantage. But duelling is more than that. It is about reflexes, speed, agility, knowing what to do when.

Snape has amazing feats when it comes to creating spells, arguably the best in the entire series. He is also amazing at potion making, obviously. Does that make him an amazing duelist? Not even close.

Snape's track record includes stomping Lockheart, defending himself against Harry who was just throwing random spells, fleeing from his fellow professors and getting one-shotted by Voldemort. Was he holding back? Sure, very likely. Do his abilities put him above Bellatrix, who defeated two master wizards, reacted to Dumbledore and was winning in a 3 vs 1? Lol, no.