Scorpion vs Sub-Zero

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Frisky4

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Scorpion, in time.

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DarkseidFanboy

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#52  Edited By DarkseidFanboy

Scorpion

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nick_hero22

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I will have to go with Scorpion because he has defeated more impressive fighters compared to Sub-Zero.

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leonkarlen123

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Scorpion in a. Bloody fight

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Linestar

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This

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rickythanos

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#56  Edited By rickythanos

Bi Han was only able to murder Hanzo (it was more of a murder than an actual battle in most incarnations of the fight)

When Hanzo became the spirit of retribution, he rose WAY out of Bi Hans league, and killed the sh*t out of him.

BUT...Sub-Zero 2 got REALLY powerful by the end of Deception, and Bi Han became a wraith (Noob)

I still think Scorpion is the best of the three, as he holds vics over both of them, but it would not be a stomp by any measure. Near stalemate with both of them.

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Devil_Driver

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Scorpion it's already been done in the new comic and the only thing that stopped Scorpion from killing him was Takeda talking him down, Hanzo possesses the experience edge, their powers can counter one another on any given day, but Scorpion is more experienced at fighting in general than Kuai Liang he was fighting against Bi Han for some time and has a great deal of experience fighting against Sub Zero's power set, also Scorpion beat Sub Zero in the comic when he was amped with the Kamidogu which boosted his ice powers to city level, Scorpion was winning the fight even taking that into consideration.

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rickythanos

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#58  Edited By rickythanos

@devil_driver said:

Scorpion it's already been done in the new comic and the only thing that stopped Scorpion from killing him was Takeda talking him down, Hanzo possesses the experience edge, their powers can counter one another on any given day, but Scorpion is more experienced at fighting in general than Kuai Liang he was fighting against Bi Han for some time and has a great deal of experience fighting against Sub Zero's power set, also Scorpion beat Sub Zero in the comic when he was amped with the Kamidogu which boosted his ice powers to city level, Scorpion was winning the fight even taking that into consideration.

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Yep. Also, didn't scorpion get an AMP from the Elder Gods AFTER he escaped the Soulnado (wtf durability feat) at the end of MK Deception?

No way either Sub Zero could take him down after that. With his Elder God amp he's a match for Onaga.

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Devil_Driver

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#59  Edited By Devil_Driver

@rickythanos: Yes but that amp is no longer applicable since the storyline reboot, still Scorpion has been on point in the new comic series, he beat a Kamidogu possessed Raiden and almost killed him as well in addition to the Sub Zero fight.

Scorpion vs Raiden
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MonsterStomp

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also Scorpion beat Sub Zero in the comic when he was amped with the Kamidogu which boosted his ice powers to city level, Scorpion was winning the fight even taking that into consideration.

Scorpion never beat the Kamidogu amped Sub Zero. That fight actually went the other way. Scorpion only beat Sub Zero when he snapped out of the amp and was arguably holding back.

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MonsterStomp

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Sub Zero still takes this, imo.

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Devil_Driver

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#62  Edited By Devil_Driver

@monsterstomp: Scorpion was never in any danger of losing he took Sub Zero's best attacks and was not stopped. You could make an argument that Sub Zero was holding back after he snapped out of his possession but this ignores the fact that his life was in real danger and once he did start fighting back he just wasn't good enough to stop Scorpion.

Bare minimum they were fighting on even ground even with the amp, Sub Zero was skewered by both kunai at the start, Scorpion then channelled hellfire through the chains, and the amped Sub Zero couldn't overcome that, he stalemated the fire with his ice, and broke the chains on his half of their little tug of war, then skewered Scorpion with ice spikes after he teleported, and kicked him through a wall and froze him and Takeda, then he snaps out of it and Scorpion breaks out of the ice and they start fighting again.

Really even conceding the amped Sub Zero part it doesn't change the fact that Sub Zero lost overall, and he should lose he is less experienced, fighting an opponent very familiar with his power set and Scorpion has already killed Bi Han. An argument can be made for either but as far as canon is considered Scorpion has the upper hand in this matchup that may change down the line but I certainly hope not.

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kgb725

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Devil_Driver

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#64  Edited By Devil_Driver

@kgb725: I actually forgot about the MK X ending so good point, though for the purposes of the comic fight it doesn't matter since the comic is a prelude to the actual tournament as far as I can tell.

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MonsterStomp

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#65  Edited By MonsterStomp

@devil_driver said:

@monsterstomp: Scorpion was never in any danger of losing he took Sub Zero's best attacks and was not stopped. You could make an argument that Sub Zero was holding back after he snapped out of his possession but this ignores the fact that his life was in real danger and once he did start fighting back he just wasn't good enough to stop Scorpion.

Bare minimum they were fighting on even ground even with the amp, Sub Zero was skewered by both kunai at the start, Scorpion then channelled hellfire through the chains, and the amped Sub Zero couldn't overcome that, he stalemated the fire with his ice, and broke the chains on his half of their little tug of war, then skewered Scorpion with ice spikes after he teleported, and kicked him through a wall and froze him and Takeda, then he snaps out of it and Scorpion breaks out of the ice and they start fighting again.

Really even conceding the amped Sub Zero part it doesn't change the fact that Sub Zero lost overall, and he should lose he is less experienced, fighting an opponent very familiar with his power set and Scorpion has already killed Bi Han. An argument can be made for either but as far as canon is considered Scorpion has the upper hand in this matchup that may change down the line but I certainly hope not.

Sub Zero outright incapacitated Scorpion with the amp and held the upper hand throughout the fight. I'd consider that fair game. Only after Sub Zero snaps out of the amp and is confused about what just happened did Hanzo go batsh*t cray cray. So in the apparent second round, Hanzo was fuelled with anger and was fighting a hesitant/confused Sub Zero. I'd also consider that fair game.

Context is everything. In Mortal Kombat IX, Kuai defeated Scorpion in a pretty even match. In Mortal Kombat X, Takeda beat Hanzo in what seemed like a training routine that both opponents were aware of. Same thing happened in Sub Zero's chapter. The clear difference is, Takeda wasn't aware that he was being tested against Kuai, so he was arguably fighting with more urgency. What also happened in MKX is the legit Scorpion vs. Sub Zero fight. Again, it could be argued that Kuai was holding back. Hanzo still had a hatred fuelled beef with the Lin Kuei, whereas Kuai wanted to help Hanzo see the truth. I wouldn't say Kuai Liang isn't as experienced as Hanzo. He is after all, the Grandmaster.

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Devil_Driver

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#66  Edited By Devil_Driver

@monsterstomp: He did knock Scorpion down but it was only long enough for him to use his freeze attack which was impressive, again I cannot grant Sub Zero the upper hand in the beginning, I can admit they were going pretty much blow for blow, but what was more impressive was that Scorpion didn't stay down and he got out of that amped attack on his own power and took the fight to Sub Zero. Also consider that if we remove the amp from the fight it would have been over from the start as soon as Sub Zeroes chest was pierced by the kunai.

Takeda maybe didn't realize he was being tested but Scorpion did and he never went all out on Takeda for that reason, as for the last bit they are both Grandmasters as far as that goes even though the Shirai Ryu is recently reformed, Scorpion also put down possessed Raiden who was clearly not holding back and hit Scorpion directly with lightning multiple times, it's pretty clear to me that Scorpion is being portrayed as the power house in the current comics run and I feel like the MK X Trailer did a good job of showing how this fight goes down most of the time, while I am more of a Scorpion fan than Sub Zero I think they are both pretty cool characters overall.

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MonsterStomp

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#67  Edited By MonsterStomp

@devil_driver said:

@monsterstomp: He did knock Scorpion down but it was only long enough for him to use his freeze attack which was impressive, again I cannot grant Sub Zero the upper hand in the beginning, I can admit they were going pretty much blow for blow, but what was more impressive was that Scorpion didn't stay down and he got out of that amped attack on his own power and took the fight to Sub Zero. Also consider that if we remove the amp from the fight it would have been over from the start as soon as Sub Zeroes chest was pierced by the kunai.

Takeda maybe didn't realize he was being tested but Scorpion did and he never went all out on Takeda for that reason, as for the last bit they are both Grandmasters as far as that goes even though the Shirai Ryu is recently reformed, Scorpion also put down possessed Raiden who was clearly not holding back and hit Scorpion directly with lightning multiple times, it's pretty clear to me that Scorpion is being portrayed as the power house in the current comics run and I feel like the MK X Trailer did a good job of showing how this fight goes down most of the time, while I am more of a Scorpion fan than Sub Zero I think they are both pretty cool characters overall.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the fight where Sub Zero was amped, as Kuai put on a more impressive show, in my opinion. I also disagree with your statement of Hanzo being capable of one-shotting Kuai with his Kunai. The mere fact that Sub Zero still had those wounds after the blood magic wore off is evidence against it.

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Scorpion was testing Takeda and was defeated. Sub Zero was testing Takeda (as well as Cassie, Jacqueline and Kung Jin), and defeated them all. Both Hanzo and Kuai were holding back to some degree, but Kuai actually defeated Takeda. I know its somewhat ABC logic (as Sub Zero and Scorpion seem relatively on par with each other), but it kind of adds to Kuai Liang's track record by sheer way of comparison. As for Scorpion defeating Raiden; its pretty impressive (considering Raiden is an absolute beast), but that feat doesn't dismiss the actual showings Hanzo and Kuai have against each other. I wouldn't consider the MKX trailer an accurate portrayal of how their fight would be (considering that its been contradicted many times in canon). Scorpion suffers major wankage from the director (Ed Boon), lol. I'd only concede it if the Sub Zero in the trailer was Bi-Han (never really cared for him anyway).

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Devil_Driver

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@monsterstomp: The problem with that is it can be argued that his wounds were sealed while he was amped, and to back that up I would argue that if you go back earlier in the series when Fox the one Shirai Ryu student that trained with young Takeda was possessed by the dagger, he cut his own face off and tanked Scorpions hellfire point blank while under the daggers effects, it took getting his head chopped in half to put him down.

Also the ABC comparison isn't very convincing, they both did test Takeda but it makes sense for Scorpion to hold back more against Takeda than it does for Kuai as he does not share Hanzo's relationship with Takeda. Also regardless of their past fights, this fight is the most recent and shows where both characters are currently in relation to one another, for me what it comes down to is that Scorpion as a Spectre is just a tier above normal human combatants, when you look at the things he has tanked in the comics a lot of it would kill a normal human even a peak human honestly

Of course you are right that Ed is a big supporter of Scorpion but lets be fair he has had his share of low showings throughout the series as well.

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MonsterStomp

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@devil_driver: Not really. The wounds are still there. Kuai still has like 5 or 6 holes in him after the effects of the blood magic wear off. So I'm not convinced that his wounds were sealed while he was amped. You could argue it like I could argue that we don't know exactly what attributes the blood magic actually amps aside from his cryomancing abilities, but we still have nothing backing it up.

I concede that ABC logic shouldn't be used more times than not, but it isn't an instant fail use of logic (which seems to be a common consensus on the forum). I found it more applicable since both Scorpion and Sub Zero fought Takeda. Hanzo held back on Takeda in their training exercise, but he's still his mentor, he's not going to hold back significantly so in which disregards the point. Hanzo was putting Takeda to the test, and Takeda passed. By comparison Sub Zero was putting Takeda to the test, and Takeda failed. Just sayin'. I actually found MKX more consistent than MKIX.

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Devil_Driver

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#70  Edited By Devil_Driver

@monsterstomp: We see the holes are still in him yes, but the blood could just as easily be from the initial wounding which I feel is more likely given my other point, my argument is that he is no longer bleeding at that point. We know that the amp raises durability significantly and powers and honestly I would even argue strength/striking power based on the kick that Sub Zero hit Scorpion with, I don't see that as his baseline striking power.

I actually agree with you on the ABC logic not always being bad, but again there was no real reason for Hanzo to go all out and nothing suggests he did, it's a case of what's more likely? he is easily capable of giving Takeda a good challenge without resorting to his full power being that he taught Takeda how to fight from the start, the final nail in the coffin of this argument is that Hanzo never went Scorpion on Takeda, Scorpion is comparable to the Dan Ketch/Ghost Rider relationship once he gives into the Scorpion it's a completely different ball game.

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kgb725

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@devil_driver: In ine of scorpions intros he states he's the elder gods champion. Was there a tournament in MK ?

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Devil_Driver

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#72  Edited By Devil_Driver

@kgb725: I'm talking about the MK X ending where he becomes the Elder Gods Champion which doesn't apply here as the tournament in the comics has not happened yet, or at the very least hasn't concluded and if you are talking about Deceptions it is non-canon. You can check the MK wikia under Scorpions endings and it says this and the same thing of MK Armageddon.

  • Deception: (Non-Canonical)"The Elder Gods had transformed Scorpion into their weapon in order to defeat the Dragon King before his plans of domination unmade the realms. With his enhanced abilities, he tirelessly tracked Onaga through the realms until finally he cornered him in the Nexus. The Dragon King had many allies, but they were of no consequence. It was in fact Scorpion who was the true Champion of the Elder Gods, the Enforcer of their will. Only he could stop the menace that threatened all that exists. Only he could defeat the Dragon King."
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MonsterStomp

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@devil_driver: Fair points about Sub Zero's pain tolerance. However, its pretty hard to tell when one is or isn't still bleeding in a still image. Though, even if you debunk that, Kuai was still impaled by Hanzo and lit up with hellfire. So you can see why I'm not convinced that Scorpion's Kunai doesn't mean its endgame for Sub Zero.

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kgb725

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@devil_driver: No in MKX if you put scorpion against scorpion one if his intros is that he says I'm the champion of the elder gods.

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Devil_Driver

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@monsterstomp: Yes that's true but consider Scorpion had not yet put much power into the fire you can see it isn't even covering Sub Zero completely and that is where Takeda was talking him down, and after he pulled his swords out and powered down so to speak, Sub Zero was left crumpled in a pool of his own blood which only serves to reinforce my earlier point.

Now to be fair Sub Zero would still have a good deal of pain tolerance to even still be standing with two swords in his gut, and minor burns at that, he also did eat a hellfire kick which is significant before being impaled, I can't argue that Sub Zero isn't tough, I'm actually arguing that he has lesser durability/survivability, a normal man would be dead for sure and we both know Sub Zero isn't going to die despite the way that ended he is too important as a character in the lore.

Having said all of that I'm curious where do you put Scorpion/Sub Zero and other high tier characters in terms of physical ability? I think Scorpion and Sub Zero are certainly above peak human or at least at the peak of what a human can perform but I'm always interested in what other peoples opinions are.

@kgb725 Because it happens in MK X I'm not for certain why they did that in the intro but it's likely they just didn't care since it eventually comes to pass at the end of the game anyways.

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MonsterStomp

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@devil_driver: I think Scorpion and Sub Zero are superhuman in comparison to real life standards. But if by DCU standards peak human = Batman (who has an outstanding level of pain tolerance liken to superhuman), both Hanzo and Kuai are more or less on his level.

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kgb725

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@devil_driver: I would've said he probably remember the old timeline but now that I think about it only Shinnok remembers

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Urban_Ninja_X

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SubZero, done deal.

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AnimeLegend68

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Scorpion

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Devil_Driver

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@monsterstomp: That's fair I would say closer to Cap than Bruce but it's so close it really doesn't matter much.

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rickythanos

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This is a good debate because the two are basically made to be considered equals. The truth is, scorpion can totally beat sub zero, and likewise, subzero can totally beat scop.

The near-equals-but-opposite-personality character set makes for good storytelling. It's like Goku and Vegeta or Ken and Ryu

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haoalchemist

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Scorpio in a stomp

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Devil_Driver

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@haoalchemist: Scorpion isn't stomping, he is a step above Sub Zero currently but that could change tomorrow if Ed Boon wakes up and decides he likes Sub Zero more all of a sudden. However they have always been shown giving one another a good fight in every encounter they have had to my memory.

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IamTheGame

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Fire melts ice, but molten ice can extinguish fire. Question is the man controlling them in game.

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Devil_Driver

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@iamthegame: This battle is about who is better from the lore/story perspective not who would pwn who in multiplayer.

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BATBOY3425

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sub zero

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Lelanka

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Scorpion always

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sladerulez

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Bump. Because bumping the greatest rivalry of all time is necessary even if they made peace with one another.

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CryoModeste

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Bi-han vs Scorpion - Scorpion

KL vs Scorpion - Sub-zero

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sladerulez

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#90  Edited By sladerulez

@cryomodeste: wasn't scorpion stronger in the end? He won in the MKX comics and game. And He was gonna kill him in the comics.

If it wasn't for Takeda changing his mind, he would have been torn apart, but Scorpion decided to be nice and left him to bleed out.

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CryoModeste

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#91  Edited By CryoModeste

I discuss with video games and comics. Yeah in comics Scorpion`s powers > Sub-zero`s powers but KL is much durable. In mk 9 he defeat scorpion,Ermac,reptile. People will say that in the story mode anyone can beat anyone but it`s fact

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sladerulez

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@cryomodeste: with that logic, then Scorpion should be able to beat him since he beat Raiden.

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He also beat Kenshi, Sonya, Johnny, and even Quan Chi without hellfire.

and he didn't just beat Sub-Zero, he sh*tted all over him, tanking everything Sub-zero threw at him, and leaving him to die.

he was going to kill him in the game if it wasn't for Frost intervening.

and He was Undead when Sub-Zero beat him. He has shown to be far stronger when alive.

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CryoModeste

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Sub-zero defeated Raiden in MKvsDC. Sonya and johhny are weak. Kenshi ? Ermac>Kenshi. So :3 SZ is still better. Also in Armageddon he killed scorpion (In MK 9 starting scene Sub-zero`s sword is stuck in scorpion`s backbone. Maybe this battle is stalemate

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sladerulez

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@cryomodeste: MK Vs DC isn't canon.

Doesn't qualify.

And if current Scorpion could beat current sub-zero twice, I think that's more impressive.

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emmanuelalake

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#95  Edited By emmanuelalake

This is so cool

Fire and Ice

Maybe stalemate

but i give my points to Scorpion

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Rockette

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Is Injustice 2 Subzero > Injustice 1 Scorpion?

Those should be the most powerful versions of each.

That should tell you right there who wins.

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sladerulez

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#97  Edited By sladerulez

@rockette: They aren't canon.

I'll make another thread of that later.

However, if we used those versions, then scorpion still wins since he beat Trigon and took his power.

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KingZod

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Scorpion

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Apophis9000

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Take into consideration in the MKX comics, Raiden and SZ were insane and were not in control. Granted he could take SZ but lets be real,Raiden fried liu kang at the end of 9 and he didnt even want to hurt him, and Liu Kang was able to beat Kahn.....so by that logic Scorpion can take on Shao kahn too which is laughable at the most. Kahn would do to scorpion what he did to cage and sonya, just chuckle and throw him around with his black magic

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Khael

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Scorpion as always.