Scarlet Witch vs Jean Grey (Rematch)

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kasya_carey

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Wanda and Jean's abilities have always been similar one being mystical and the other psionic non the less both aren't physical. Last encounter Jean overpowered Wanda with her TK and Wanda warp the very ground under Jean. With current BASE version who has the development to win now?

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Bloodlusted

Full Power/Peak

Current Versions

BASE versions only

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kasya_carey

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#2  Edited By kasya_carey

Thoughts?

@koays@marvelfan1992@pyrofn@geekryan@lordofallhumans@del_torro@mage101@emmafrostxmen@mooty_pass@kasya_carey@boutatakeanl@scarlet_wiccan@purplehairedni1@samgee

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Mage101

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You're messing with forces that you do not understand.

Jean stomps tbh.

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rajjarsalt

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If Marvel Girl used her telepathy on the Scarlet Witch, couldn't she show her the True Darkhold and drive her mad?

Game set and match

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Mooty_Pass

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BigBaby

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#6  Edited By BigBaby

A 60s Wanda clowned Krakoa, including Jean. If current Jean and an island full of mutants couldn't stand a chance against a past remnant of Wanda, specifically a backup preceding Agatha's training, how is Jean supposed to stand a chance against a much powerful version of Wanda alone? Mismatch in Wanda's favor.

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rajjarsalt

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#7  Edited By rajjarsalt
@bigbaby said:

A 60s Wanda clowned Krakoa, including Jean. If current Jean and an island full of mutants couldn't stand a chance against a past remnant of Wanda, specifically a backup preceding Agatha's training, how is Jean supposed to stand a chance against a much powerful version of Wanda alone? Mismatch in Wanda's favor.

Hmm looks that fiasco happened right after Jean used her TP on her too. So it could be directly relevant to TP here - basically like a subconscious reality warp that Jean couldn't counter.

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Said representation of her guilt also had the telepaths fumbling.

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Meanwhile...

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Mage101

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Xavier already clowned the avengers, the whole world while not fully powered + with zero skill. Wanda's defenses are also very mid. I'll list some instances:

  • Gets mind controlled by some no-name guy in the 80's
  • Didn't notice Agatha slipping into her soul while Agatha was multitasking
  • Her defenses were easily busted by low tier telepath: teen jean; who didn't have any training and sucked at that time.
  • Clowned by red skull with Xavier's powers alongside the avengers
  • Clowned by Emma frost
  • Clowned by Shana who isn't a telepath
  • Enchantress beat her with a psychic attack
  • Hypnotized by Ultron
  • Asked teen jean to stay out of her mind because she couldn't defend from her
  • Clowned by a silly Psy static attack recently

Wanda has repeatedly been portrayed with inconsistent Psy defenses.

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imquentin

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#9  Edited By imquentin
@rajjarsalt said:

If Marvel Girl used her telepathy on the Scarlet Witch, couldn't she show her the True Darkhold and drive her mad?

Game set and match

This. Rachel was unable to get a psychic hold of the creatures Wanda created because their minds were chaotic and hell bent on destruction. Not to mention, those creatures were made by Wanda's subconsciousness, a weaker 60s Wanda at that. Current Wanda not only is the true Darkhold but also has Chthon inside of her, being able to change herself to demonic form. My guess is that Jean won't be able to affect Wanda telepathically and/or a similar situation to what happened when she TPed Knull will occur.

Also a small correction, Jean did not overpower Wanda with TK. She only sent her flying while Wanda wasn't even defending herself and was caught off-guard.

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geekryan

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#10  Edited By geekryan  Online

TP GG.

Wanda, along with the other Avengers, recently got incapacitated by psychic static from a vampire. Jean also did significantly better against Nightmare than Wanda did.

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TheWatcherKing

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Jean stomps lol

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kasya_carey

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@rajjarsalt said:

If Marvel Girl used her telepathy on the Scarlet Witch, couldn't she show her the True Darkhold and drive her mad?

Game set and match

This. Rachel was unable to get a psychic hold of the creatures Wanda created because their minds were chaotic and hell bent on destruction. Not to mention, those creatures were made by Wanda's subconsciousness, a weaker 60s Wanda at that. Current Wanda not only is the true Darkhold but also has Chthon inside of her, being able to change herself to demonic form. My guess is that Jean won't be able to affect Wanda telepathically and/or a similar situation to what happened when she TPed Knull will occur.

Also a small correction, Jean did not overpower Wanda with TK. She only sent her flying while Wanda wasn't even defending herself and was caught off-guard.

The same could be said when Wanda warps the ground around Jean...

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rajjarsalt

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#13  Edited By rajjarsalt

Wait a dang minute, is that OP image showing the Darkhold and Chthon tentacles coming out?

Mismatch

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rajjarsalt

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@rajjarsalt said:

If Marvel Girl used her telepathy on the Scarlet Witch, couldn't she show her the True Darkhold and drive her mad?

Game set and match

This. Rachel was unable to get a psychic hold of the creatures Wanda created because their minds were chaotic and hell bent on destruction. Not to mention, those creatures were made by Wanda's subconsciousness, a weaker 60s Wanda at that. Current Wanda not only is the true Darkhold but also has Chthon inside of her, being able to change herself to demonic form. My guess is that Jean won't be able to affect Wanda telepathically and/or a similar situation to what happened when she TPed Knull will occur.

Also a small correction, Jean did not overpower Wanda with TK. She only sent her flying while Wanda wasn't even defending herself and was caught off-guard.

Honestly Jean wouldn't even go for entering Wanda's mind right off the bat. It doesn't really make any sense for her to do so because she saw what happened to Krakoa the last time she tried.

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marvelfan1992

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Wanda is more powerful of course but still loses to a TP attack from someone like Jean

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kasya_carey

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@rajjarsalt: it doesn’t matter the picture it matters what the rules say. It would be different if I didn’t post any versions

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Mooty_Pass

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Jean Grey for the Win.

-The Scarlet Witch does NOT have the best telepathic resistance unfortunately. As extremely powerful as she is she lacks in that department.

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BigBaby

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#18  Edited By BigBaby

@rajjarsalt: Honestly, 60s Wanda taking out the Kaiju in one blast whereas it took multiple mutants to subdue one Kaiju is pretty embarrassing. Also, Jed needing to write three BloodCoven members to take out Wanda, with one of them negating her powers so she couldn't defend against TP reinforces my point that telepathy is a non-factor.

Because if Jed portrays Wanda as needing three high-tier BloodCoven members to take her on(one being a telepath) while negating her powers simultaneously in a team ambush, he literally indicates he doesn't believe a single telepath could beat her effectively without context or getting jumped. And the cherry on top is that Wanda is still up and not knocked out from TP for an extended period while having her powers negated.

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rajjarsalt

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#19  Edited By rajjarsalt
@kasya_carey said:

@rajjarsalt: it doesn’t matter the picture it matters what the rules say. It would be different if I didn’t post any versions

The only difference between the picture and the rules is that the rules put the book and Chthon inside her lol. So it's current base, who holds back that power at all times.

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rajjarsalt

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#20  Edited By rajjarsalt

@bigbaby: The current state feeds into another argument imo. If Jean succeeds in messing with Wanda's mind, she'll make that Krakoa conquest look like Kindergarden Cop. Wanda's manifested guilt alone is one thing but the True Darkhold? Chthon unchained?

Average out all low ends and high ends, do the same with Jean, and even if TP is a solid win condition, there is still a gap of time for the Scarlet Witch to win in a hundred different ways.

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BigBaby

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#21  Edited By BigBaby

@rajjarsalt: Jean won't push Wanda that far. She's not a significant enough threat to do that IMO. Even recently, she casually destroyed Endlings in base form; the same Endlings that clowned Molecule Man. She didn't need Darkhold for that, she won't need it for someone weaker.

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Additionally, time stop = GG. The only reason it didn't work on The Endlings is because they presumably exist outside time, but Jean doesn't, so it'll definitely work on her:

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imquentin

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@imquentin said:
@rajjarsalt said:

If Marvel Girl used her telepathy on the Scarlet Witch, couldn't she show her the True Darkhold and drive her mad?

Game set and match

This. Rachel was unable to get a psychic hold of the creatures Wanda created because their minds were chaotic and hell bent on destruction. Not to mention, those creatures were made by Wanda's subconsciousness, a weaker 60s Wanda at that. Current Wanda not only is the true Darkhold but also has Chthon inside of her, being able to change herself to demonic form. My guess is that Jean won't be able to affect Wanda telepathically and/or a similar situation to what happened when she TPed Knull will occur.

Also a small correction, Jean did not overpower Wanda with TK. She only sent her flying while Wanda wasn't even defending herself and was caught off-guard.

The same could be said when Wanda warps the ground around Jean...

It says "Jean overpowered Wanda with her TK" but not "Wanda overpowered Jean by warping the ground beneath her". I'm just saying that the word is misused.

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kasya_carey

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@imquentin: If you used context clues you know overpowered applies to Scarlet Witch too, especially with using "And" which means as well as or along with

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Mage101

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@imquentin:

It says "Jean overpowered Wanda with her TK" but not "Wanda overpowered Jean by warping the ground beneath her". I'm just saying that the word is misused.

Wanda attacked jean while she was distraught and distracted from seeing all of what happened to the mutants so she wasn't even concentrated on Wanda. Wanda's defenses were easily broken by teen jean who is a low tier telepath.

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imquentin

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@kasya_carey: I think "Jean overpowered Wanda with her TK and Wanda by warping the very ground under Jean" would carry the intended meaning. Not like it would be correct that way, both of them didn't overpower each other. It wasn't even a real fight to begin with.

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imquentin

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@mage101 said:

@imquentin:

It says "Jean overpowered Wanda with her TK" but not "Wanda overpowered Jean by warping the ground beneath her". I'm just saying that the word is misused.

Wanda attacked jean while she was distraught and distracted from seeing all of what happened to the mutants so she wasn't even concentrated on Wanda. Wanda's defenses were easily broken by teen jean who is a low tier telepath.

Doesn't mean anything and unrelated to my point.

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anthp2000

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#27 anthp2000  Moderator

@bigbaby: In the future, please refrain from indirectly addressing arguments made by users on the other side of the agreement. We can tell when that's happening.

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#28  Edited By Soratoumiga

Is there any reason Wanda doesn't stomp here? Far superior psychic feats:

Jean's super strong Phoenix form is compared to base Thor:

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I mean an amped Jean could barely handle TK-ing a few billion tons of avalanche boulders. Let's remember this sweet instance in Uncanny X-Men:First Class#2:

Jean was struggling to hold a billion tons of avalanche boulders, and Cyclops states that the only power to destroy this was Black Bolt’s voice, despite Jean being there. Unsurprisingly, his mere utterance indeed destroys these rocks (though through a funnel).

Here comes Wanda, who, in Quicksilver#6 cast a hex sphere that sucked in all Black Bolt’s scream that shook the entire New Attilan in its explosion:

Similar feats performed, only Jean struggled to do it, whereas Wanda’s one hex managed to do it.

This ignores the fact that Wanda can just stop time which she consistently does (and even did in her newest issue), teleport Jean or dump her in a different timeline (which given this is a bloodlusted match is possible).

Wanda stomps 10/10. Perfect counter to TP/TK, while Jean has NO counter for time/reality hax.

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PyroFN

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I mean, the whole song and dance has been done before. Wanda has been getting better as of recently, I at least give her that.

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#30  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

even the biggest wanda fan should agree she’s at least very inconsistent. in recent times she has been better, but to use this all and say she can resist physic shield breaker jean grey is difficult. i feel we need a more direct feats of her looking a telepath in the face and resisting their attack. a telepath at least comparable to jean. until then i’ll give jean a minor edge.

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del_torro

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Time stop feels like too much of a problem for Jean to deal with.

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PyroFN

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Time stop feels like too much of a problem for Jean to deal with.

More than time stop is too much for Jean to deal with. The issue was never about Wanda having win conditions. It’s always been the case that Wanda could win fights against Jean Grey.

even the biggest wanda fan should agree she’s at least very inconsistent. in recent times she has been better, but to use this all and say she can resist physic shield breaker jean grey is difficult. i feel we need a more direct feats of her looking a telepath in the face and resisting their attack. a telepath at least comparable to jean. until then i’ll give jean a minor edge.

That basically boils down the entire issues with this fight. No one denies Wanda has resistance feats. They just are either outliers/high ends or just not that impressive. They fluctuate all over the place as far as impressiveness, which is nothing anyone has ever said before.

This isn’t even saying Jean wins hand-down. This is saying going down the route of “Wanda is gonna meet/resist Jean’s telepathy and win”. There are plenty of ways for Wanda to end the fight with a victory.

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Devil_King18

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Jean has better showing.

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geekryan

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#35 geekryan  Online

Time stop feels like too much of a problem for Jean to deal with.

Not when you consider the context:

  1. It was used as a second-to-last resort.
  2. It was done to protect the citizens taking shelter in the Emporium, as its defences were about to breached and the Endlings were overwhelming the area.
  3. It failed to affect The Endlings.
  4. It was done against a massive amount of opponents.

Not that Jean (without Phoenix) has any counters to time manipulation, but the use of this spell was very contextual. There is no evidence Wanda would attempt a spell like this in a 1v1 fight against Jean, especially since it was one of her last resorts.

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#36  Edited By ShamelessFear

Jean Grey wins.

I don't see Wanda beating Jean at all.