The fight takes place in Times Square. K.O. , Death , Incapacitation are the conditions. Morals on. Both will be Twenty-five feet for the distance. No prep for both. Who wins?
Wolverines Adamantium.... He should be able to rip his head clean off with those Adamantium blades that he has... Even if Scarlet Spider found a way to KO Wolverine.... Wolve would be back within seconds...
Wolverines Adamantium.... He should be able to rip his head clean off with those Adamantium blades that he has... Even if Scarlet Spider found a way to KO Wolverine.... Wolve would be back within seconds...
Wolverine 9/10
He doesn't have to knock out or kill him for the win. He can use webbing to hold him.
What are the means for victory? Peter has easily incapacitated Logan before and it should be even easier for Kaine due to his lack of morals and improved power-set.
Wolverines Adamantium.... He should be able to rip his head clean off with those Adamantium blades that he has... Even if Scarlet Spider found a way to KO Wolverine.... Wolve would be back within seconds...
Wolverine 9/10
He doesn't have to knock out or kill him for the win. He can use webbing to hold him.
So you don't think Wolverine being metal can break out of Webbing? Hm Ok... I would say Metal not even half as durable as Wolverines could break out of webbing easily.
What are the means for victory? Peter has easily incapacitated Logan before and it should be even easier for Kaine due to his lack of morals and improved power-set.
@goodguy24: Wolverine does not have the strength to break the webbing. If he is webbed up into a position where he cannot move his arms to cut the webbing he can be held down. Its happened before.
@Deranged Midget said:
What are the means for victory? Peter has easily incapacitated Logan before and it should be even easier for Kaine due to his lack of morals and improved power-set.
I think wolverine can put up a fight. Kaine might be more brutal but I'm not sure if Kaine can by his damage soak. Kaine may be fast but I don't know if he is faster then spider-man and he doesn't have spider-sense. I still would say Kaine takes the majority here though.
@jashro44: Wolverine is definitely putting up a fight here, but there's no doubt that Kaine still possesses far more raw strength, agility and speed as demonstrated in his fight against the Assassins. His camo suit might come in handy too although Logan will probably have no problem tracking his location via smell.
@goodguy24: Wolverine does not have the strength to break the webbing. If he is webbed up into a position where he cannot move his arms to cut the webbing he can be held down. Its happened before.
Wouldn't the webbing have to be stronger than Adamantium to trap Wolverine? I would think so. Their is nothing either that suggest the webbing is strong enough to trap a Guy whos made out of Metal down............. Webbings work just like strongs only they're far more durable to various desgrees, but they arent as durable as chains and Wolverine should be able to break out of chains as well.............................................................................
@goodguy24: Not true, Peter has incapacitated Logan before with only webbing. I can see Kaine replicating that.
WOW! I don't see how that could possibly happen though, but I guess its all up to the writers... I just couldnt see Wolverine getting trapped in webs, but the scan does tell different.
@jashro44: Nevermind. A Scan just proved me differently.....
Well I don't know since Peter has that Ability it might be a good fight. Might go stalemate here. I mean Wolverine is fast don't get me wrong... I see what you're saying now though.
@Deranged Midget: Wolverine got himself out of the next page IIRC by clenching his fist and popping his claws til he could cut out or something. I don't have the scan :P.
Kaine fights differently from Peter and he lacks certain advantages here incorporated with his character's tendencies make this fight a different ball park for me.
@goodguy24: Peter has held Iron Man together with webs before, albeit he used FAR more than he did against Logan and they were organic, but it still holds. Without cutting at the webs, I don't think Logan possesses the strength to break free from that amount of webbing.
@Deranged Midget: Yeah, but you gotta remember Ironmans Armor isnt as durable or as strong as Wolverines. Adamantium is the strongest, most durable, Indestructable metal their is... Theirs no metal more powerful. So by judging the armor, I would say Wolverines more durable and stronger for that reason... Only thing Ironman has over Wolverine is explosive weapons and can fly to wheres Wolverine cannot fly.
@god_spawn: Can't remember that. I find Kaine to be just as fast as Peter, the fight with the Assassins basically confirming that as he could take a suitable amount of damage and still manage to take them out one by one. On top of that, he could just wrap up Logan in a cocoon and potentially beat him unconscious.
@Deranged Midget: Yeah, but you gotta remember Ironmans Armor isnt as durable or as strong as Wolverines. Adamantium is the strongest, most durable, Indestructable metal their is... Theirs no metal more powerful. So by judging the armor, I would say Wolverines more durable and stronger for that reason... Only thing Ironman has over Wolverine is explosive weapons and can fly to wheres Wolverine cannot fly.
This doesn't make any sense. Wolverine doesn't have armor. He has an adamantium laced skeleton that just lets his claws cut through almost anything and makes his bones virtually unbreakable. That does nothing Iron Man's armor does for him. Tony's armor increases his speed beyond 100 tons, strength, reflexes, agility, durability etc, Wolverine's skeleton does none of that.
@goodguy24: I don't really see how that applies. The adamantium is crafted to his bones, not his exterior and Iron Man is far more physically superior than Logan is. Weight means little either.
If i recall correctly Kaine lacks the spider-sense right? That would favore Logan a lot since this is one of the main abilities that would help Peter win over him. Of course the fact that Kaine is way more cruel, would even the odds, but still.
Nice battle, i'm still thinking about it. I can see both winning this.
@spidey 15: Kaine seemed to do perfectly fine against opponents with firearms at near point blank range without spider-sense.
Sure! Kaine is by no means slow, especially now, that he is some kind of the "Other" Kaine. But, i believe Logan's speed combined with his amazing knowledge on martial arts, would give him a far more decent chance of tagging him than it would against Peter. Not to say it's easy, but that chance does exist and i wouldn't be surprised at all, if he eventually get it and win the fight. Maybe Kaine might have better chances though. He got already almost stabbed by a sword and shot by a bullet at point blank ( in issue 4 ) and kept fighting and won, in an extreme brutality i could say against like 4 super powered opponents.
@Deranged Midget: Yeah, but you gotta remember Ironmans Armor isnt as durable or as strong as Wolverines. Adamantium is the strongest, most durable, Indestructable metal their is... Theirs no metal more powerful. So by judging the armor, I would say Wolverines more durable and stronger for that reason... Only thing Ironman has over Wolverine is explosive weapons and can fly to wheres Wolverine cannot fly.
This doesn't make any sense. Wolverine doesn't have armor. He has an adamantium laced skeleton that just lets his claws cut through almost anything and makes his bones virtually unbreakable. That does nothing Iron Man's armor does for him. Tony's armor increases his speed beyond 100 tons, strength, reflexes, agility, durability etc, Wolverine's skeleton does none of that.
I know all of that, but the point I was making was Wolverine was more durable than Ironman because Wolverines Metal is " Indestructable " he can cut through anything as you stated.... I know Tonys different due to speed and tech, but durability wise, I'd have to say Wolverine, not to mention Wolverine has a healing factor.
@Deranged Midget said:
@goodguy24: I don't really see how that applies. The adamantium is crafted to his bones, not his exterior and Iron Man is far more physically superior than Logan is. Weight means little either.
Well right, I was just saying Wolverine could cut anything including Ironmans armor, but in a fight Ironman would win due to flying, speed, technology...etc... I was just trying to point out that Wolverines armor is indestructable and his far harder to damage than Ironman is... like god_spawn said, Wolverines armor is unbreakable and he could cut through anything.
Now moving on to the topic itself, I agree if Peter can get Logan into that position to where he can trap Wolverine with those webs he might be able to take advantage, but in this fight, it might not be easy.... Even if Peter won, Logan would still give him a run for his money.
@spidey 15: I have no doubt that Logan is giving Kaine a run for his money and yes, he's been tagged solely due to the reason that he lacks a proper Spider sense, but his speed is still superior to Logan's and it helped him greatly against the speedster he fought and the other weapon wielding assassins.
@goodguy24: Yes, Logan's Adamantium is indestructible, but I don't see how that applies at all. He doesn't possess the strength nor power that Iron Man does and he still couldn't break out of Peter's webs.
@Deranged Midget: I know, I didn't mention these instances to downgrade him. Actually for the opposite. It was way to impressive to see him getting bleeding damage twice and still beat that super powered team, in a way too bloody way. :)
@Deranged Midget: Ok if you trap Wolverine with the webs you can trap him. I get that, but let me ask you this.
If Spidey trapped someone with those spider strings and Wolverine came and saw that the person was trapped, are you saying Wolverines blades wouldnt be strong enough to cut that person free?
@Deranged Midget: He could but from the first 7 issues I've read (haven't been able to catch up for the time being), that was the only fight against a main opponent that involved webbing. Every other fight I've seen ie the assassins was 95% melee combat.
Issue 1 only used webbing to pull in fodder opponents, the rest of the time did not.
Issue 2: Prolonged melee fight, used webbing to choke him, got flung off, used webbing as a shield then wrapped him up.
Issue 3: engaged in melee at the start, used webbing to stop him by tying his feet then proceeded to engage in melee fight again.
Issue 4: Engaged in mostly melee, utilizing suit's stealth feature, only used webbing at the beginning to swing and then at the end to trip the little girl.
Issue 5: Just the bomb, no major fights except against fodder and the only time he used webbing a fight in the issue was to webswing closer to the enemy and web up 2 goons shooting at him.
Issue 6: Against Ana Kravinoff, despite being affected by nerve poisons, he didn't use webbing. He engaged in melee combat and just used webbing to escape the burning building.
Issue 7: No webbing against guards, melee combat, stealth feature and using water to splash someone in the face.
So I'm 7 issues into the series and Kaine has heavily relied on mainly on his physical stats and stealth feature. He has occasionally used webbing but only to swing and in battle he has used it to tie up the flame guy after a prolonged fight, pull in 2 fodder opponents and wrap 2 other goons, trip a girl that was part of the Assassin's Guild but at the very end of the fight near the end of the issue after engaging in melee combat. Wolverine's power and skill set should be able to capitalize for a slight majority since Kaine heavily relies on his stats and stealth feature far more often instead of his extra powers and it won't take a ridiculous slew of claw strikes to change the tide here. And there is also the lack of spider sense..
@goodguy24: You are getting something wrong. The blades, can cut the web, but if Logan is incapacitated, he should at first be able to move his arms in order to cut free. That's the whole point. Logan's strength like everyone's else, is based on muscles, not on skeleton. That's why he wouldn't be able to move his arms and cut free. The only thing that adamantium skeleton grands him is great striking power which has nothing to do with his ability to cut free at all.
@goodguy24: When did I ever say that Logan's claws couldn't cut through the webbing? I merely stated that he'd quite the trouble cutting through the webbing when he can't move his body an inch.
@god_spawn: Hah, good points, but i don't think most opponents needed to be webbed in order to lose, unlike Logan which this is the only way to beat him.
@spidey 15: They may not but in the instances Kaine has usually webbed up opponents he has fought mainly using his stats which is my point. For a good chunk of this fight it would seem he would mostly engage Wolverine in a physical fight and if he does use webbing near the start it would most likely be just to swing Wolverine in close or Kaine closer to Wolverine which is something he can't afford to really do. I'm not saying Kaine won't do it for some wins but his penchant for utilizing his stats and brutality over webbing is pretty clear. He even showed in issue 7 he is just coming to terms with creativity with his webbing and is doing things he hasn't tried when he caught all the debris.
@god_spawn: You do have good points and i certainly agree with them, but i see it as, since he just got the ability of organic webbing, he has yet to master it and just uses it in his own ways, which not all are smart. In Peter's case, he has learned when and how to utilize properly his webbing, something that doesn't apply to Kaine, yet. Of course what i'm saying is just speculation, but we might see him in later issues, to use his webbing smarter. That's a bit irrelevant to this fight right now, but my point is just, is a bit to early to know how Kaine would eventually act.
@spidey 15: I agree with that and it is why I mentioned issue 7. He is coming to terms more with his webbing but it isn't enough yet to warrant putting it in character for him. We at least have enough issues out that he has a clear preference in combat and unfortunately that combat style does not favor him here. With this revelation though and given a few more issues then yes, we may see Kaine use his webbing in more creative ways and then I would say he could take a majority over Logan. For now, I don't see it.
@god_spawn: Those are all good points but would you not agree that Kaine used an excessive amount of webbing against that first enemy(can't remember his name) due to his physical superiority and used to his advantage to cut out his access to pyrotechnics.
Webbing isn't Kaine's trade mark as much as it is Peter's and he's definitely not accustomed to using it regularly in his power-set nor to the same way that Peter does, but he's still utilized it to his advantage and has shown to be agile and capable enough to take on multiple opponents of superior skill and still coming out on top regardless of the lack of spider-sense.
@Deranged Midget: He did use an excessive amount of webbing against the flaming Mexican, I even stated he used webbing to wrap him up. My point still stands in that fight considering he spent an entire issue fighting him in melee combat and even resorting to using a pistol before he actually used his webbing to end it. It takes awhile for Kaine to utilize his webbing in such a matter, his preference for close combat seems pretty clear IMO. I think Wolverine would end up beating Kaine or hurting him enough to where his webbing won't become that deciding factor.
But he utilized other tactics that won't matter against Wolverine here. Wolverine's senses will circumvent the stealth suit's advantage which is something Kaine uses often. Wolverine is more skilled than the assassins. Wolverine's claws will deal more damage than the speedster's swords did (and Wolverine has tagged speedsters himself). Wolverine has already shown in combat speed and skill that he can keep up with regular Spider-Man despite being slower (not by a huge degree). He still holds a significant skill edge over Kaine and he has the necessary skill set to win the majority albeit a slim one. Until Kaine utilizes his webbing more often he lacks the means to gain the edge over Wolverine.
This ends much the same way as Spider-man Vs Wolverine except Wolverine takes a few more wins due to Kaine's inexperience with his new powerset but he does make up for this in lethal attacks. So Kaine for a slim majority.
@Deranged Midget: He did use an excessive amount of webbing against the flaming Mexican, I even stated he used webbing to wrap him up. My point still stands in that fight considering he spent an entire issue fighting him in melee combat and even resorting to using a pistol before he actually used his webbing to end it. It takes awhile for Kaine to utilize his webbing in such a matter, his preference for close combat seems pretty clear IMO. I think Wolverine would end up beating Kaine or hurting him enough to where his webbing won't become that deciding factor.
In the first several issues, yes and even to this point and I'll agree that retains his aggressive physical nature rather than embracing the organic webbing. But my point is that he still knows how to utilize the webbing to his advantage. Is it likely that he can replicate that feat on Logan? Possibly. Will he? It's debatable. As it stands, Logan is a far better hand-to-hand combatant than Kaine as he just prefers to use physicality to his advantage which won't prove fruitful against Logan.
But he utilized other tactics that won't matter against Wolverine here. Wolverine's senses will circumvent the stealth suit's advantage which is something Kaine uses often. Wolverine is more skilled than the assassins. Wolverine's claws will deal more damage than the speedster's swords did (and Wolverine has tagged speedsters himself). Wolverine has already shown in combat speed and skill that he can keep up with regular Spider-Man despite being slower (not by a huge degree). He still holds a significant skill edge over Kaine and he has the necessary skill set to win the majority albeit a slim one. Until Kaine utilizes his webbing more often he lacks the means to gain the edge over Wolverine.
I already stated that Kaine's camo suit would be nearly useless in a fight against Logan due to his enhanced sense and he'd have little trouble tracking him via his scent. I think that we can both agree that the reason Peter usually takes an advantage over Logan in their bouts is not because of his superior physicality, but due to his spider-sense and the way he utilizes his webbing. Logan can, without a doubt, tag Kaine and should have no problem keeping up with him or hurting him with his attacks.
My only speculation still stands though. Whether Kaine, in desperation, will resort to depending on his webbing as he did with the Pyro Mexican.
@Deranged Midget: One thing I will say in Kaine's defense is that his tolerance to piercing/stabbing attacks is a lot higher than Pete's. I mean he gets shot in one issue and only take notice of it for a few seconds. He's also been badly burned on multiple occasions and has never seemed worse for the wear. Due to his more consistent showings i'd be tempted to say he's more durable than Peter in regards to that sort of damage.
@Jonny_Anonymous: In Logan's case, it did. The Adamantium coating his skeleton allows his body to take on extreme pressure and in turn, making his muscles stronger.
Hmm, I'm not sure, I'll have to re-read that issue to make sure. Thanks for pointing it out.
@Strider92: I have to agree with that for the most part, but Logan is relentless and I can see him eventually landing a crucial hit if Kaine doesn't decide to step it up and play it safer.
@Deranged Midget: Has Logan ever been shown to predict an opponent's exact move using smell alone? I mean, sure it will give him a general sense of the exact spot his opponent is in, but will it tell him how the opponent is going to strike? I'm asking because the stealth suit may help in this way to even out the hand-to-hand situation with Kaine facing a more skilled opponent, at least until Logan grapples him.. This is just a slim possibility though, since Kaine has never attacked with the suit while invisible, only after he's revealed himself.
Also, can you recommend any recent books wherein Logan uses actual skill in a fight that isn't a spar or a personal match to determine skill? From what I've seen of him lately, he still brawls simply because it's the fastest and easiest way to deal the most damage since he doesn't have to worry about himself with the healing factor.
@gunmetalgrey: No, Logan can't predict the exact location of his opponents strikes but that's not the point. Kaine utilizes the camo suit as a breather and attempts to use it as a surprise attack. Logan's senses would help counter that as he can pin-point where he'll be hiding or coming from. But as for the specific strike, he hasn't blocked something like that from an opponent of Kaine's speed.
To determine skill? The majority of time when Logan lost his adamantium, he was forced to lean back on his decades of experience and utilize a smart fighting stance rather than act as a brute.
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