*Shaak Ti as of the Force unleashed
Round 1: Lightsabers only
Round 2: All out fight
vs.
Savage Opress vs. Shaak Ti
@silver2467 said:
/drops bait, runs from Wollf
Are you ready for another throwndown? 'Cause Shaak wins
...
both rounds
...
decisively.
@wollfmyth209: I actually do think this is a good fight, but I would favor Savage more often than not, probably at least 7/10. He has a reputation for successfully fighting Jedi council members, such as Adi Gallia, Plo Koon, and Obi-Wan. I think he has enough combative effectiveness to beat Shaak for something of a majority. Shaak is most likely the smarter and more measured combatant, but Savage, for whatever he may occasionally lack in tact and technique, compensates with brute force, power, and relentlessness. His TK feats impress more than Shaak's do, and so do his physical feats. You might be able to remind me of some showings for Shaak that are better than I might be giving her credit for though. So I'll defer to you.
He has a reputation for successfully fighting Jedi council members, such as Adi Gallia, Plo Koon, and Obi-Wan.
Adi was basically featless, Plo was winning until Savage ripped off his mask, and Kenobi is clearly Savage's superior, Opress simply held his own.
Shaak is most likely the smarter and more measured combatant,
Agreed.
but Savage, for whatever he may occasionally lack in tact and technique, compensates with brute force, power, and relentlessness.
This won't mean much against Shaak. Her raw power is very much within the same league as Savage, and I'd probably mark her as a superior to Force user to Opress, but I'll get to that later. And Shaak's own strength feats are within Savage's, and her speed is superior.
His TK feats impress more than Shaak's do, and so do his physical feats.
Physically, yes, but I doubt in the Force. Shaak has managed to telekinetically hurl Galen Marek on, what the source that shows her overpowering him states is, a Dark Side Nexus whilst controlling Felucia:
The statement which suggests Felucia is a Dark Side Nexus:
From the comic, as well, Marek has turned TIE fighters into toys:
This is easily on par with whatever Savage had shown telekinetically, and a hindered Ti managed to throw back an amped Marek. I'd say this places Shaak above Savage as a telekinetic. Additionally, Shaak has such feats like holding back an entire ocean:
Physically: Shaak Ti shrugged off zapps from MagnaGuards(that previously brought down Even Piell and Anakin) briefly withstood Grievous's strength whilst exhausted, overpowered MagnaGuards whilst tired, survived being shot in the chest, dodged dozens of blasters, moved faster than Galen, blitzed MGs(albeit, while using a staff, but it's still a showing of superior speed), etc. Shaak's own strength is enough for her not to be overwhelmed by Savage, and her speed is superior.
On top of that, Shaak is more telekinetically powerful(reasons stated above) and more skilled(being stated that only the top duelists of the order could stand against her, being stated as one of the most skilled/cunning Jedi of the Order, besting Galen Marek, besting multiple MagnaGuards). Overall, I'd back Shaak for around 7/10.
@wollfmyth209: I didn't say kicking someone makes you inherently superior to someone, read. The combination of that, and Plo having the aid of clones, and then Savage breaking his defence again is what leads me to believe he was superior. The most Plo did was scrape Savage's leg while he was redirecting a blaster bolt that was fired from behind.
Tearing his cape isn't relevant; Savage's cape has nothing to do with his body, it's artificially flapping in the wind.
Plo also landed severals blows on Opress
No, he didn't. That is pure fan fiction, lol.
I'm including the comics statements of Felucia being a Dark Side nexus because that is where Shaak throws Galen.
It says Felucia is strong in the dark side... that's not necessarily a nexus. Tython was "strong in the Force" during Dawn of the Jedi but the Je'daii temple was still regarded as a nexus. Being strong in the Living Force isn't the same as being a Nexus. If anything I think Felucia's alignment is just exaggerated and didn't make a substantial difference.
She was beating Marek in a pure lightsaber duel on a place that was described as a balance between Light and Dark. Either way, Shaak was also hindered in the novel as she had to keep the entire planet under her control.
No, in the novel it's described as out of balance, with the dark side being repressed. Ti wasn't controlling an entire planet, she had a strong connection to the Felucian wildlife which prompted it's inhabitants to cooperate with her.
@wollfmyth209 said:
I'm having a hard time recalling many combat feats for Gallia off-hand, and she was regarded as more of a diplomat than a warrior. So I will concede that. However, I would esteem Savage defeating Gallia over Shaak defeating Magna-Guards; at the very least, it equalizes the two on that individual point.
Koon had no advantage of any kind at any point during their encounter. The scans below show the full fight. Sword's above description of this event is accurate. Savage duels Koon for a few pages while simultaneously handling clone troopers, connects an equal amount of blows on Plo as Plo does on him, and finally overpowers him and tears off his breathing mask. Savage is the obvious superior in this battle. Ascribing the advantage to Koon when there is absolutely no indication of that whatsoever in the story and pointing out that Savage pulled off his breathing mask hardly undermines Savage's victory. It's not like someone can just casually walk up to Koon and aggressively tear his face mask off, anymore than someone can just casually walk up to Yoda and punch him in the nose. Koon needs his breathing mask for survival; he will defend it for his own sake, especially during a duel. For Savage to not only penetrate Koon's defenses but go so far as to rip off his mask with impunity very evidently establishes Savage as the better of the two. It necessitates skill on Savage's part to bypass Plo's obvious protectiveness of his mask mid-duel to beat him this way.
Gallery
For Obi-Wan, what exactly convinces you so clearly that Obi-Wan is Savage's superior? In both duels between the two that I can recall, there was some circumstance to it that benefited one or the other. Savage briefly fought both Obi-Wan and Anakin without much advantage for either side before their fight was interrupted. Obi-Wan fought both Savage and Maul in a tunnel corridor where Shadow Conspiracy describes how the lack of space interfered with Savage and Maul's joint effort against him. If you were referring to how Obi-Wan cut off Savage's arm, that is impressive for Kenobi, but that duel immediately follows a fight between Obi-Wan and Maul alone that conveyed them as dueling with seeming parity, only for Obi-Wan to successfully fight both Maul and Savage together due to environmental factors. It doesn't really depict Obi-Wan as obviously superior, only marginally at best and that indebted to Maul and Savage's spatial frustrations. I'm not even saying that Obi-Wan is not the better duelist, but "clearly Savage's superior" is a bit exaggeration, in my opinion. Savage is not that far behind Kenobi, skillfully speaking.
I also should point out that Savage has dueled fairly evenly with Ventress, which is another notable accomplishment on his part.
@wollfmyth209 said:
Physically, yes, but I doubt in the Force. Shaak has managed to telekinetically hurl Galen Marek on, what the source that shows her overpowering him states is, a Dark Side Nexus whilst controlling Felucia:
The statement which suggests Felucia is a Dark Side Nexus:
From the comic, as well, Marek has turned TIE fighters into toys:
This is easily on par with whatever Savage had shown telekinetically, and a hindered Ti managed to throw back an amped Marek. I'd say this places Shaak above Savage as a telekinetic.
Respectfully, Wollf, I think you're hugely overstating the significance of this showing. Shaak managing to land a paltry Force Push against Marek proves that she is as powerful a telekinetic as Savage? Numerous characters have connect a Force Push against another character, even characters more powerful than they are. Just because Ventress has pushed Anakin away doesn't mean she is more powerful or even equally powerful; we know he outclasses her with the Force because of their other encounters, especially when Anakin has cut loose against her and outright stomped her, as in Republic just before the Battle of Coruscant. In your example, all Shaak did was hurl Starkiller back, not dominate and defeat him with a Force attack; if she did that, I would accept that she supersedes Savage telekinetically, but this isn't the case. Your showing does place Shaak within a reasonable margin of Starkiller's power level, because he was apparently unable to be completely unaffected by her attack, but it does nothing more than that. Frankly, I fail to see how that showing is more noteworthy than Savage choking and slamming Dooku and Ventress together with the Force (2:27-2:37) or pushing away Anakin and Obi-Wan along with several battle droids (1:37-1:42); these to me would be stronger instances of raw telekinetic power than Shaak just knocking over Starkiller.
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Shaak has never achieved anything like this, to my knowledge.
Not trying to distort facts, but could I request the entire scene? It's been a long time since I've read my favorite SW comic series, Republic, and I distinctly remember Anakin and Obi-Wan helping Shaak with this. But my memory of this incident might be incomplete. If you have scans of the whole scene and/or can describe the background information of it to me, that would be great.
@wollfmyth209 said:
Physically: Shaak Ti shrugged off zapps from MagnaGuards(that previously brought down Even Piell and Anakin) briefly withstood Grievous's strength whilst exhausted, overpowered MagnaGuards whilst tired, survived being shot in the chest, dodged dozens of blasters, moved faster than Galen, blitzed MGs(albeit, while using a staff, but it's still a showing of superior speed), etc. Shaak's own strength is enough for her not to be overwhelmed by Savage, and her speed is superior.
On top of that, Shaak is more telekinetically powerful(reasons stated above) and more skilled(being stated that only the top duelists of the order could stand against her, being stated as one of the most skilled/cunning Jedi of the Order, besting Galen Marek, besting multiple MagnaGuards). Overall, I'd back Shaak for around 7/10.
Physically: Savage has withstood repeated barrages of Lightning from Dooku, has tanked blaster bolts unfazed, briefly deflected fire from more than a dozen battle droids firing at him in close quarters before being overwhelmed (1:20-1:40), moved his blade in an eyeblink, broken chains with his strength, outmuscled other Jedi, and so forth. I fail to see much disparity. Concerning physical strength, the difference between Shaak and Savage is that his strength has actually manifested itself in duels, while Shaak's has not, unless I forgot something; Savage has more of a track record of demonstrating himself the physical superior over his enemies. Concerning speed, if Savage can maintain pace with Ventress, Obi-Wan, Dooku, and so on, I reserve my doubts that Shaak's speed would be of any consequence, even granting that she is faster (a claim which I'm not yet convinced of).
Not sure about Shaak being the more powerful telekinetic. Savage pushed Anakin and Obi-Wan's ship off a landing platform (2:09-2:16); choked Dooku and Ventress; hurled back a small party of battle droids and Anakin and Obi-Wan; and Maul and Savage together blasted away some dozens of soldiers.
I also don't disagree with you about your description of Shaak's rather monumental influence on Felucia or how it does present her as a powerful master, easily a more polished master of the Force than Savage, but nonetheless, it adds very little to a direct confrontation. We never saw Starkiller exercising planetary Force manipulation of that kind or the control necessary to, but he was still capable of holding his own against Shaak. Savage might not possess the conditioned mastery of the Force that Shaak does, but he does possess more than enough sheer power to match her or, in my opinion, beat her.
I'm having a hard time recalling many combat feats for Gallia off-hand, and she was regarded as more of a diplomat than a warrior. So I will concede that. However, I would esteem Savage defeating Gallia over Shaak defeating Magna-Guards; at the very least, it equalizes the two on that individual point.
Adi Gallia's best feats are hurling a rock and holding off the nerfed TCW Grievous briefly. Anyways, why would beating Gallia equal holding off an army of MGs whilst tired from running around Coruscant? And Savage only beat Gallia by using TK to slam her onto a wall, then pierce her with his horns. Nothing skill related. Besides, that's not Ti's best skill feat. Her best skill feat would be her decisively beating Marek in a duel until he cheapshotted her.
I'll concede to the Plo battle, tho I'd still prize this incarnation of Shaak above Plo, so it's not like it matters much.
For Obi-Wan, what exactly convinces you so clearly that Obi-Wan is Savage's superior?
Obi stalemated a more skilled opponent, i.e. Darth Maul. That, and his feats are simply better; fending off a hindered Anakin, stalemating Maul, stalemating Grievous, holding his own against the Count, are all better feats than what Savage achieved.
In both duels between the two that I can recall, there was some circumstance to it that benefited one or the other. Savage briefly fought both Obi-Wan and Anakin without much advantage for either side before their fight was interrupted.
An enraged Savage fought them, and the Jedi weren't going all-out, IIRC, but rather just trying to capture him.
Obi-Wan fought both Savage and Maul in a tunnel corridor where Shadow Conspiracy describes how the lack of space interfered with Savage and Maul's joint effort against him. If you were referring to how Obi-Wan cut off Savage's arm, that is impressive for Kenobi, but that duel immediately follows a fight between Obi-Wan and Maul alone that conveyed them as dueling with seeming parity, only for Obi-Wan to successfully fight both Maul and Savage together due to environmental factors.
I wasn't even regarding their duel on Floruum, as I am aware of the circumstances that were in play.
It doesn't really depict Obi-Wan as obviously superior, only marginally at best and that indebted to Maul and Savage's spatial frustrations. I'm not even saying that Obi-Wan is not the better duelist, but "clearly Savage's superior" is a bit exaggeration, in my opinion. Savage is not that far behind Kenobi, skillfully speaking.
Maybe "clear superior" was an exaggeration, but my point is that Obi is a superior duelist to him to the point where it shouldn't be a question on who'd win a majority of times in a pure lightsaber duel. Truth be told, Savage shouldn't be far behind.
I also should point out that Savage has dueled fairly evenly with Ventress, which is another notable accomplishment on his part.
He only did this due to his overwhelming strength, which was substantially above Asajj's. That isn't going to be an advantage he'll have against Shaak. He might be stronger, but not by a lot.
Shaak managing to land a paltry Force Push against Marek proves that she is as powerful a telekinetic as Savage?
A paltry Force Push? With all do respect, that's not even close to what happened. Shaak's telekinetic assault floored Galen and kept him on the ground long enough for Shaak to gather her energies to summon a power similar to kinetite and blast him with it:
It's hardly just him being staggered and getting back up almost instantly.
Numerous characters have connect a Force Push against another character, even characters more powerful than they are.
Most of the time, when a Force Push from an inferior telekinetic connects, it only staggers the superior one. For example: when Kenobi pushed Maul, when Kota pushed Galen. But when a superior telekinetic lands a hit on an inferior one, it does greater damange.
Just because Ventress has pushed Anakin away doesn't mean she is more powerful or even equally powerful; we know he outclasses her with the Force because of their other encounters, especially when Anakin has cut loose against her and outright stomped her, as in Republic just before the Battle of Coruscant.
Asajj only landed a telekinetic hit on Anakin that was effective in TCW, which is known for butchering characters and having a stunning lack of consistency in regards to others. In their first ever encounter, Anakin tanked most of her direct telekinetic Force Pushes... on a Dark Side Nexus no less. And Anakin dominated Asajj later, which proved he was superior. Marek only managed to even land a telekinetic hit that injured Shaak by cheapshotting her, because she had believed the Sarlaac devoured him:
In your example, all Shaak did was hurl Starkiller back, not dominate and defeat him with a Force attack; if she did that, I would accept that she supersedes Savage telekinetically, but this isn't the case.
Actually, she did more than just hurl him back. She managed to floor him long enough for her to draw and gather energy for Kinetite, and unleashed it before Galen could get up. It's not dominating, but she proved she's at the very least equal to this incarnation of Galen.
Frankly, I fail to see how that showing is more noteworthy than Savage choking and slamming Dooku and Ventress together with the Force (2:27-2:37) or pushing away Anakin and Obi-Wan along with several battle droids (1:37-1:42);
There's more context to those feats:
- Anakin and Obi-Wan had their backs turned on Opress, hence they likely didn't even throw up a shield to guard themselves. Dooku and Asajj were similarly distracted.
- Savage was enraged at that time, due to being betrayed and thrown around by both Asajj and Dooku.
Not trying to distort facts, but could I request the entire scene? It's been a long time since I've read my favorite SW comic series, Republic, and I distinctly remember Anakin and Obi-Wan helping Shaak with this. But my memory of this incident might be incomplete. If you have scans of the whole scene and/or can describe the background information of it to me, that would be great.
Sure. The feat itself is open for interpretation, but:
The first scan has a battalion of Battle Droids coming through a transparisteel tunnel. And she, Obi and Anakin crushed the tunnel:
Then, upon crushing the tunnel, the ocean started flooding in. The book only shows Shaak stretching out her hand and holding back the ocean whilst bringing up multiple objects to cause a blockade so the ocean doesn't flood in.
While this may or may not have been done with the aid of Kenobi and Skywalker, the next scan shows Obi tending to Shaak Ti as if she had exerted herself of some energy, implying she was the one who held the ocean back:
Like I said, it's open for interpretations, but either way, it's a pre-prime Shaak Ti and it's better than anything Savage did.
Physically: Savage has withstood repeated barrages of Lightning from Dooku, has tanked blaster bolts unfazed,
The armor aided him in these feats, IIRC. Either way, those are some good durability feats, indeed.
briefly deflected fire from more than a dozen battle droids firing at him in close quarters before being overwhelmed (1:20-1:40),
This speed feat is good, but Shaak's is better:
moved his blade in an eyeblink,
The eyeblink of a human, or Force sensitive? I feel Shaak moving faster than Galen should be superior.
broken chains with his strength,
Shaak destroying a MagnaGuard with strength should at least rival that.
outmuscled other Jedi, and so forth. I fail to see much disparity.
Indeed. There isn't a big difference between Shaak and Opress in strength.
Concerning physical strength, the difference between Shaak and Savage is that his strength has actually manifested itself in duels, while Shaak's has not, unless I forgot something; Savage has more of a track record of demonstrating himself the physical superior over his enemies.
Actually, Shaak kept staggering Galen Marek with her strength, and speed, at once:
She smiled in mockery. "Are you prepared to meet your fate?" Then her lightsaber was lit and she was spinning through the air toward him, striking downward as she fell.
The apprentice simultaneously backflipped and blocked her opening blow. The force of it surprised him, and the recoil threw him backward. His hood caught on one of the sarlacc's teeth, and he tore it impatiently away before the snag could interfere with his defense. Shaak Ti's lightsaber was a jagged blue blur between them. He blocked her as best he could until he had his balance again.
Then he jumped. Over her he spun and fell down two layers of teeth toward the mouth of the sarlacc. From there he jumped up again, angling away from her to avoid giving the Jedi the advantage of height, but she was there ahead of him, driving him back down with a series of blows so rapid he barely caught them all.
Source: The Force Unleashed novel
She also, while tired, drove back a MagnaGuard with strength:
https://youtu.be/64-3talVkUA?t=391
Concerning speed, if Savage can maintain pace with Ventress, Obi-Wan, Dooku, and so on, I reserve my doubts that Shaak's speed would be of any consequence,
Conceded.
even granting that she is faster (a claim which I'm not yet convinced of).
Oh, she's certainly faster, but Savage can keep pace and it's not going to be of much value. But it's still an edge in Shaak's corner.
Not sure about Shaak being the more powerful telekinetic. Savage pushed Anakin and Obi-Wan's ship off a landing platform (2:09-2:16);
That's a good feat. But a pre-prime Galen has done something similar, and Shaak floored him.
choked Dooku and Ventress;
Whom were distracted, and while enraged.
hurled back a small party of battle droids and Anakin and Obi-Wan;
Again, while enraged, and whilst Anakin and Obi-Wan had their backs turned. And in a series that has gross inconsistencies. And as for the droid thing, a pre-prime Shaak did similar.
and Maul and Savage together blasted away some dozens of soldiers.
This is impressive. But he did this with Darth Maul, a being of equal or greater telekinetic power than himself.
I also don't disagree with you about your description of Shaak's rather monumental influence on Felucia or how it does present her as a powerful master, easily a more polished master of the Force than Savage,
Agreed.
but nonetheless, it adds very little to a direct confrontation. We never saw Starkiller exercising planetary Force manipulation of that kind or the control necessary to, but he was still capable of holding his own against Shaak.
The problem with this is that Galen held his own while Shaak was manipulating the planet and the Sarlaac and keeping the Dark Side at bay. She was hindered in more ways than one and was forced to multi-task. Without such circumstances hindering her, I believe Shaak could've won, and she was still winning.
Savage might not possess the conditioned mastery of the Force that Shaak does, but he does possess more than enough sheer power to match her or, in my opinion, beat her.
I respectfully disagree. Shaak is the more powerful and masterful Force user, and is the more refined and skilled duelist. The prime advantage of Savage, which was a big part of his success, is his strength. And Shaak is very much comparable to Savage in that area for him not to win a majority through sheer strength and power alone. So overall, I'd still stand by the opinion that Shaak wins 7/10.
@killerwasp said:
keep it up wollf represent Shaak ti! XD
All hail the Togrutan master race!
@jacthripper said:
Wow
Forgot that Shaak Ti was such a badass
Now you know the truth, my son. Spread it wide and far! Of our lord and savior:
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