Savage Opress vs Luminara Unduli and Barriss Offee

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dark-sith123

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Darth Sidious decided to leave Maul and Savage alone, seeing them as a very useful distraction for the Jedi and finding many possible uses for their army even without Maul and Savage around. The Jedi, knowing that Maul will come for them, have devised a plan to cripple the crime syndicate. Obi-Wan Kenobi has challenged Maul to an ultimate standoff on Tatooine, with no soldiers, Mandalorians or clones, being allowed to set foot on the planet. Maul, in his hubris, accepts, leaving Savage in charge of proceedings. While Maul and Kenobi are fighting on the desolate desert planet, with no outside communications, the Republic launched an offensive on Mandalore. Special clone commando squads drew enemy fire as the Jedi Master Luminara and her apprentice Barriss Offee sneaked up to the throne room, switfly dispatched the guards and challenged Opress to a lightsaber duel.

  • Start 20m apart
  • Luminara and Barriss as of Star Wars: The Clone Wars season 5
  • This is Light Barriss, not the corrupted Barriss that dueled Anakin on the Temple
  • Savage in his prime (Season 5)
  • Takes place where Maul and Vizsla fought (throne room)

Who wins? Will the Jedi manage to cut down the monstrous Zabrak or shall the Dark Side warrior emerge victorious and render the Jedi's plan a complete failure?

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dark-sith123

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Kurk

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I'd like to think the duo could win, but Savage's brute strength would make that very difficult against two females. Their only chance is to outmaneuver him with their natural Mirialan flexibility and try to exploit his openings.

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AnonymousJedi

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#4  Edited By AnonymousJedi

Savage wins in a decent fight.

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deactivated-6034d0d6dcbf4

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Savage, easily

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FloLikeYou

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#6  Edited By FloLikeYou

Like Kurk said I would love to say the team but I could see this ending like his fight with Adi Gallia, because he is a lot more stronger in physical terms but they are a lot more skilled! He has just the pure strength! That’s a tough one ... I would say the team at the very end after a long hard fight just because adi would’ve won against him if their physical strength would’ve been equal (she is clearly a lot more skilled he won do tue strength) but Gallia used Ataru ? I’m not to sure but she definitely used an attack form while luminara and Barriss are using soresu (defense form) so they would last a lot longer and then he would get tired and they would ultimately win. I’m very sure that barriss would die tho.

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alextheboss

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I feel like they could out duel him together, but I also feel he can also just ragdoll them strength and force wise. I guess I'll give the majority to Savage because he can just knock them both back with the force or with his saber and kill one while they are separated.

@kurk said:

I'd like to think the duo could win, but Savage's brute strength would make that very difficult against two females. Their only chance is to outmaneuver him with their natural Mirialan flexibility and try to exploit his openings.

I agree with this.

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Grinningf0x

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Team narrowly

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Necromancer76

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Savage, close fight. Make Offee the version that fought Anakin and the team could win.

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Greysentinel365

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The teams teamwork grants them the win.

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ThunderPrince

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Savage, close fight. Make Offee the version that fought Anakin and the team could win.

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Hypnos0929

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This is close but what should catch them off guard is Savage's strength. Unlike most warriors he doesn't need those 3-4 hard hits to knock you down, he needs 1. They don't have the strength to block but I do think they have the speed to dodge. If either dies they both die unless the other capitalizes on the fact that the kill probably leaves Savage open

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americanspeeddemon

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Savage should take it.

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KillBilly

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Not sure. This is actually a very close fight.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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Team logically stomps unless Savage power-abuses.

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AnonymousJedi

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Greysentinel365

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Honestly Savage just bats them both aside.

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FloLikeYou

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deactivated-6034d0d6dcbf4

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Savage overwhelms them.

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CT-5555

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Savage

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Necromancer76

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#22  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

Luminara solos. Her pure skill level is enough to ensure she can closely-match Savage, as shown by her ability to duel General Grievous on Nadiem. Combined with the comfortable nigh-invincibility of a Soresu master's defenses, Savage isn't winning.

Not to mention, Barriss is also a Soresu master, and specializes in tandem fighting, so this is even more one-sided.

Sources:

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"Both Luminara and Barriss were masters of Form III lightsaber combat..."

-- Star Wars: Fandex Deluxe Edition

"A practitioner of the defensive Soresu form, Jedi Master Luminara Unduli will provide a daunting challenge in the dueling ring."

-- Clone Wars Adventures

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"The third form, Soresu, also known as the Resilience Form, or the Way of the Mynock, is the ultimate expression of defense -- and its masters are said to be impervious to all forms of attack."

-- The Jedi Path

"True Form III masters are considered invincible."

-- Insider #62

"True masters of Form III have long been considered invincible; although not always able to overcome their opponents, no Form III masters have ever been defeated."

-- Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

"Form III, with its emphasis on anticipating and blocking lightspeed energy blasts, requires the greatest connection to the Force. The road is long, but it is worth the journey, for a true master of Form III is invincible."

-- Medstar II: Jedi Healer

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Void_Reborn

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Savage by a slim margin.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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The duo takes it unless Savage gets mad and abuses the force

Either of these fighters are better than Adi Gallia so logically they will give him far more trouble than her

Duo 7-8/10

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Lord_Tenebrous

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The duo takes it unless Savage gets mad and abuses the force

Either of these fighters are better than Adi Gallia so logically they will give him far more trouble than her

Duo 7-8/10

Come again?

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EmmaFrostXmen

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#26  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@lord_tenebrous: Barris fought relatively evenly with Ahsoka (despite her having prepared and having studied the environment prior judging by how she has been there before and knew exactly how to abuse the environment). Ahsoka gave Grievous a longer fight than Gallia. Additionally Luminara gave Ventress a great fight, and Ventress defeated Grievous. The Ahsoka part is perfect scaling and just because you think it doesn’t make sense doesn’t make it unusable as a feat, because Dave Filoni already stated that a slightly older Ahsoka “fought on Mauls level”. Maul >> Grievous > Gallia

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@emmafrostxmen:

Barris fought relatively evenly with Ahsoka

Ahsoka is fodder to Gallia, so this means nothing, and that is also just an anti-feat for Ahsoka since Barriss can't even keep up with a vastly pre-prime Anakin.

Ahsoka gave Grievous a longer fight than Gallia.

Never happened. The longest uninterrupted amount of time Grievous & Ahsoka clashed was 5-6 seconds. Gallia dueled Grievous for a bare minimum of 19.

Additionally Luminara gave Ventress a great fight,

Luminara outclassed regular Ventress, then lost to an enraged Ventress*

and Ventress defeated Grievous.

A much more powerful Ventress outfought Grievous -- she did not defeat him -- and that was on Dathomir, a dark nexus. Completely worthless.

The Ahsoka part is perfect scaling and just because you think it doesn’t make sense doesn’t make it unusable as a feat,

It objectively makes no sense, it's just a showing born from unadulterated bias, but setting that aside, it being an inconsistent outlier makes it unusable as a feat. We've been over this.

because Dave Filoni already stated that a slightly older Ahsoka “fought on Mauls level”.

Okay? That's what the duel shows. It doesn't change the fact that it's a massive inconsistency.

Maul >> Grievous

Baseless, Grievous dismissed Maul on Zanbar and has thrashed Maul's peer, Obi-Wan, on numerous occasions.

Gallia ~ Grievous >>>> Ahsoka =< Barriss. Luminara is comparable to Gallia, but she's not as skilled.

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eslay03

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If team plays smart and patient, they win the majority.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@lord_tenebrous: I’m done debating with you unless you can learn to accept feats you don’t agree with. Every time you get stuck in a corner during a debate you call the feat an “inconsistency”. Ahsoka fought almost evenly with Grievous for 43 seconds (also “evading” is a MASSIVE part of duels in Star Wars so however long they actually touched blades doesn’t matter especially considering Ahsoka's ataru fighting style which focuses on agility and speed). Then about a year later she duels relatively evenly with Maul. That’s flawless and obvious consistency and it puts her around both of their levels.

Additionally Maul thought him and Ahsoka could defeat Sidious which obviously places her above Savage, and as you’ve said Barris is roughly equal to TCW Ahsoka.

Also Ahsoka contended with Maul as you’ve admitted which already places her above Savage whom Maul trounced.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#30  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@emmafrostxmen:

I’m done debating with you unless you can learn to accept feats you don’t agree with. Every time you get stuck in a corner during a debate you call the feat an “inconsistency”.

Nope. You simply sift through feats, choose the ones you like and cling to them like religious text. When confronted with the fact that your favored showings are but inconsistent outliers, you fall back on such tactics as shown in the quoted paragraph.

Ahsoka fought almost evenly with Grievous for 43 seconds

No, for about 5-6.

(also “evading” is a MASSIVE part of duels in Star Wars so however long they actually touched blades doesn’t matter especially considering Ahsoka's ataru fighting style which focuses on agility and speed).

I'm not discounting dodging and the like. That's still active fighting. I'm not counting when they aren't fighting -- lulls, breaks in the fight, or when they're not actually dueling.

Ahsoka & Grievous' longest uninterrupted clash of active dueling spanned 5-6 seconds.

Then about a year later she duels relatively evenly with Maul.

An inconsistent outlier, and even if it wasn't, it still wouldn't place Ahsoka anywhere near Gallia.

That’s flawless and obvious consistency and it puts her around both of their levels.

Nope. Grievous has thrashed Maul, so Ahsoka struggling with him is also inconsistent. They don't mesh. Ahsoka can't be Grievous level and Maul level simultaneously.

You know what is flawless and obvious consistency? Ahsoka struggling against Barriss, who was fodderized by a massively pre-prime and considerably holding-back Anakin. Ahsoka struggling against Vizsla, who was fodderized by Obi-Wan. And a dark side amped Ahsoka being fodderized by a massively pre-prime and considerably holding-back Anakin.

Additionally Maul thought him and Ahsoka could defeat Sidious which obviously places her above Savage,

According to Maul's subjective, mind-numbingly idiotic opinion. Not concrete fact.

and as you’ve said Barris is roughly equal to TCW Ahsoka.

Which is an anti-feat for both of them at the same time.

Also Ahsoka contended with Maul as you’ve admitted which already places her above Savage whom Maul trounced.

Ah, but we're cherrypicking showings, remember? A disinterested, injured and tired Savage was soloing the combined force of Obi-Wan & Anakin above Sullust, so in actuality Maul is fodder to Savage. And if you bring up any other showings, you are just demonstrating how backed into a corner you are, unable to accept feats you don't agree with.

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Void_Reborn

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#31  Edited By Void_Reborn

@emmafrostxmen said:

The duo takes it unless Savage gets mad and abuses the force

Either of these fighters are better than Adi Gallia so logically they will give him far more trouble than her

Duo 7-8/10

Neither of the team here are better than Gallia. Bariss has no feats that put her even close to that level. Luminara lost to very early TCW Ventress after an extended fight, who is objectively inferior to Grievous via consistent feats against Obi-Wan and Anakin. The Dathomir fight is an amped outlier and Grievous was already winning before Ventress decided to abuse her 'strength' or ability to throw blows better than he can in a slugfest at the end of their duel.

Gallia, on the other hand, has fought Grievous on two occasions; once where she was outfought and kicked through an entire corridor, later defeated and captured and another where she attacked him by surprise and got a slight upper hand in a confined space.

Her being able to contend on this level of parity with the general is beyond anything the duo has showcased.

Grievous > Gallia > Luminara > Bariss

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EmmaFrostXmen

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#32  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@void_reborn: Barris scales to Ahsoka (based on pervious showings and them both being at the level of a Jedi Knight at the same time) who fought Grievous for much longer than Gallia (47 seconds)

Luminara scales to Ventress who defeated Grievous

So overall: Luminara > season 5 Ahsoka >|= Barris > Gallia

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Void_Reborn

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@emmafrostxmen:

Barris scales to Ahsoka (based on pervious showings and them both being at the level of a Jedi Knight at the same time) who fought Grievous for much longer than Gallia (47 seconds)

Length of duel doesn't actually matter very much. There can be very decisive conflicts that happen in a short amount of time (well, not too short) and that Ahsoka fight, ignoring the inconsistency of it, is full of PIS. Ahsoka caused Grievous to struggle in a bladelock. That literally does not make any sense and should never be happening.

As for the rest of the duel, she didn't perform very well. Grievous was essentially playing around with her for some of it, spinning his lightsabers while laughing to chase her and what not. By contrast, Gallia put up a relatively even exchange against Grievous in a mid-length duel.

Luminara scales to Ventress who defeated Grievous

>Losing to early TCW Ventress means she scales to a later iteration of the character that was also empowered.

This is completely irrelevant.

So overall: Luminara > season 5 Ahsoka >|= Barris > Gallia

Grievous > Gallia > Luminara >/= S5 Ahsoka >/= Barris

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EmmaFrostXmen

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#34  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@void_reborn: no.

Length of duel is all that matters. Say there are 3 martial artists that are all going to fight in 1v1 with each other. Guy 1 fights Guy 2 for 30 seconds and Guy 1 wins, but then Guy 1 is healed completely and he fights Guy 3 for 45 minutes and Guy 1 still comes out victorious. By your logic Guy 1 > Guy 2 = Guy 3

It doesn’t make sense. Additionally Grievous did not laugh a single during the duel, and rather only laughed when he threw her to the ground. When Ahsoka was actually standing he was completely serious even grunting a few times. It’s also not inconsistent considering a year of so later she fights almost evenly with Maul. Grievous also was actively trying to stop them from leaving so he was not holding back at all.

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Void_Reborn

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@void_reborn: no.

Length of duel is all that matters. Say there are 3 martial artists that are all going to fight in 1v1 with each other. Guy 1 fights Guy 2 for 30 seconds and Guy 1 wins, but then Guy 1 is healed completely and he fights Guy 3 for 45 minutes and Guy 1 still comes out victorious. By your logic Guy 1 > Guy 2 = Guy 3

It doesn’t make sense. Additionally Grievous did not laugh a single during the duel, and rather only laughed when he threw her to the ground. When Ahsoka was actually standing he was completely serious even grunting a few times. It’s also not inconsistent considering a year of so later she fights almost evenly with Maul. Grievous also was actively trying to stop them from leaving so he was not holding back at all.

Maul is portrayed as a close rival of Kenobi. Both of them have been trounced by Grievous once and on a regular basis respectively. Ahsoka competing with Maul is no outlier. Ahsoka competing with Grievous is an inconsistency. That fight was also PIS.

As for your analogy on length of dueling. There are a lot of other factors and circumstances at play that would judge whether the length is relevant or not. Form advantages, how lightsaber forms interact with one another and skill of both contenders and their intent going into the fight all matter. So, no, length isn't all there is nor is it everything. If that were the case, Opress would be effectively superior to every member of the B team that went to face Palpatine save Mace Windu.

We know that's very far from the truth.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#36  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@emmafrostxmen said:

@void_reborn: Barris scales to Ahsoka (based on pervious showings and them both being at the level of a Jedi Knight at the same time) who fought Grievous for much longer than Gallia (47 seconds)

"47 seconds." Sure, if you count when they weren't actually fighting. In reality, Ahsoka & Grievous duel for 5 seconds before she pushes him away with the Force:

Thereby creating distance between them, and causing a break in the fight. That burst ends right there, and is cut off from the rest of the duel. 5 seconds.

Then they clash again, this time for 4 seconds until they once more pause their active swordplay:

The rest of the fight consists of:

A) Grievous grabbing Ahsoka with his claw, and throwing her away

B) Grievous charging Ahsoka while in propeller mode, not actually dueling

C) Grievous briefly dueling Ahsoka for around 2 seconds after a dead bladelock

None of which supports your case or qualifies as genuine dueling. What does not count as actively dueling Grievous:

  • Standing at a distance looking at him
  • Engaging in a dead bladelock with him

And thus, Ahsoka at most kept up with Grievous for 5 seconds, while Gallia at least kept up with him for 19 seconds. Period.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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#37  Edited By EmmaFrostXmen

@lord_tenebrous: THE CLASHES ARE NOT THE LENGTH OF THE DUEL, EVADING AND WAITING ARE ALSO A MISSIVE FACTOR IN DUELS AS WELL.

You obviously no nothing of sword fighting and martial arts. Ahsoka was pausing and waiting for a moment to attack, and she force pushed him away to regain her ground. Tano fought him for 43 seconds and evading and waiting are included. Look up factors in a Star Wars fight and you’ll notice patience, agility, speed, and the force are all enormous factors in Star Wars duels.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@emmafrostxmen:

THE CLASHES ARE NOT THE LENGTH OF THE DUEL,

Literally are. If Ahsoka did not fight Grievous for 40 seconds, you cannot say she fought Grievous for 40 seconds.

EVADING AND WAITING ARE ALSO A MISSIVE FACTOR IN DUELS AS WELL.

Evading is, waiting never has and never will qualify as active fighting.

You obviously no nothing of sword fighting and martial arts.

So says the person arguing that simply standing around doing nothing counts as active fighting.

Ahsoka was pausing and waiting for a moment to attack,

Nope, she was just sitting there, from a distance, far out of reach.

and she force pushed him away to regain her ground.

Good for her, changes none of what I said.

Tano fought him for 43 seconds and evading and waiting are included.

Nope, Tano only fought him for 5 seconds. Evading has not been omitted, and not waiting will never be included because it's not fighting.

Look up factors in a Star Wars fight and you’ll notice patience, agility, speed, and the force are all enormous factors in Star Wars duels.

Gallia fought Grievous for a bare minimum of 19 seconds. Ahsoka fought him for 5. If Ahsoka wasn't fighting Grievous, then you cannot count that part as her fighting Grievous.

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Void_Reborn

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#39  Edited By Void_Reborn

@lord_tenebrous:

Nope, Tano only fought him for 5 seconds. Evading has not been omitted, and not waiting will never be included because it's not fighting

I think you mean just waiting. Better to correct now than have it be nitpicked, called out or used as a point in a response post.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@lord_tenebrous: Incorrect.

1) Getting away from Grievous is a feat in itself

2) Tagging him with TK is also a feat

3) As you’ve once said yourself tagging someone physically is the ultimate sign of out dueling them. Ahsoka literally used Grievous’ body as a step and jumped over him

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@lord_tenebrous:

Nope, Tano only fought him for 5 seconds. Evading has not been omitted, and not waiting will never be included because it's not fighting

I think you mean just waiting. Better to correct now than have it be nitpicked, called out or used as a point in a response post.

Ah yes, thank you. I'll have to edit that out.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#42  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@emmafrostxmen:

1) Getting away from Grievous is a feat in itself

Yes, escaping a fight is so very impressive.

2) Tagging him with TK is also a feat

I never disagreed.

3) As you’ve once said yourself tagging someone physically is the ultimate sign of out dueling them.

I've never said any such thing, but I have said that piercing someone's guard is an indication of superiority, yes.

Ahsoka literally used Grievous’ body as a step and jumped over him

To escape. Might I remind you that Grievous grabbed her like a ragdoll.

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EmmaFrostXmen

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@lord_tenebrous: exactly so they both pierced each other’s guard once therefore they fought completely equally. Ahsoka uses him as a step and Grievous used her face as a mop.

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Void_Reborn

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@lord_tenebrous: exactly so they both pierced each other’s guard once therefore they fought completely equally. Ahsoka uses him as a step and Grievous used her face as a mop.

Plot made it so Ahsoka didn't die the moment Grievous grabbed her face. She lost the fight right there. Ahsoka has plot armor.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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@lord_tenebrous: exactly so they both pierced each other’s guard once therefore they fought completely equally. Ahsoka uses him as a step and Grievous used her face as a mop.

Landing on Grievous' back while trying to escape is not as impressive as simply grabbing someone and slamming them around.

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laflux

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Hmm. Others disagree but I put Ventress above Lumi due to a wealth of showings despite the fact she didn't do too well against her. Regardless I see them as on a similar level. I put Savage ahead of Ventress so by extension he would be above Lumi. Depends if Light Barris can run enough interference. If she was corrupted I would say so, given she was able to blindside Ventress and beat Ashoka (albeit significantly pre-prime), but Light Side Barris hasn't done anything as impressive so I will go with Savage in a good fight.

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CT-5555

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@emmafrostxmen said:

@lord_tenebrous: exactly so they both pierced each other’s guard once therefore they fought completely equally. Ahsoka uses him as a step and Grievous used her face as a mop.

Plot made it so Ahsoka didn't die the moment Grievous grabbed her face. She lost the fight right there. Ahsoka has plot armor.

She probably would've died right there if they were fighting in a different environment. The only reason Grievous throwing her hard onto the floor didn't have much of an effect on her was because she was thrown onto a rather soft, sandy surface.

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@ct-5555: Yes, do you remember what happened to her earlier in the series when Grievous backhanded her and she hit her head against a ship wall? Incapacitated.

If Grievous was in an area like where he fought Obi-Wan in the Kamino arc and started slamming her into the hard surfaces she may as well have lost instantly.

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Again:

Grievous > Gallia ~ Savage > Luminara >/= S5 Ahsoka >/= Bariss

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eslay03

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Again:

Grievous > Gallia ~ Savage > Luminara >/= S5 Ahsoka >/= Bariss

I agree with this scaling.