Satele Shan vs. Obi Wan Kenobi ROTS

*Both fighters are bloodlusted/Jedi morals off

*Battle takes place on Ossus

vs.

@shootingnova@okayalright_44@juiceboks@darth_necray@jkbart@thevivas@jedixman@dccomicsrule2011@i_like_swords@lamlam@zapan87

Bloodlusted? Satele wrecks with the Force.

In character Kenobi swiftly wrecks her in a duel IMO.

@i_like_swords: IC Kenobi never goes for aggressive and always relies on soresu to wear down his opponent. Which won't work with Satele who chains her force abilities with her saber skills. Satele is good with a saber, but not Ben's equal. She's still good enough to hold off Malgus, who's an absolute beast.

Still Satele's primary focus is Force Abilities and her Precog/Foresight is said to be rather miraculous and that her predictions are never wrong. So even in-character, while Kenobi is a superior duelist, he has no counter for Satele's superior force abilities which she does use even IC.

And I'm still wondering why people keep using SWTOR characters when "Shadow of Revan" hasn't hit yet.We're gonna see what roles Satele, Marr and all else play in the upcoming expansion. And I don't doubt we'll see another novel to update the last few years of stories in SWTOR like "Annihilation" did. Though maybe they're just waiting and hoping for Drew Karpyshyn to come back and fix all the screwups.

@reikai:

IC Kenobi never goes for aggressive and always relies on soresu to wear down his opponent.

False, he has gone for aggression in the past, i.e against Darth Maul and Savage Opress and probably other times I'm forgetting. Also, Soresu isn't only about wearing an opponent down, it's about counter-attacking and exploting gaps in ones defence - which will be pretty easy to do given Kenobi is several tiers ahead of Satele as a duelist, is well experienced with Saberstaffs after fighting three users of this type of blade, and the fact he has extensive knowledge on Ataru, which appears to be Satele's main form. She would leap over him and return to the ground in more pieces than one.

Which won't work with Satele who chains her force abilities with her saber skills. Satele is good with a saber, but not Ben's equal. She's still good enough to hold off Malgus, who's an absolute beast.

She doesn't really chain them in enough to mount any kind of significant, match-winning offence. Her duels with Malgus were mainly martially-based and other than that there doesn't appear to be anything to suggest she uses offensive Force powers any more than her saber. Besides, between Kenobi's ridiculous durability, and the fact he can partially deflect telekinetic bursts, she isn't going to be putting him down with the Force before he disarms her or dismembers her. Holding off and losing to Malgus means squat considering Kenobi is a different type of, and substantially better, duelist than Malgus.

Still Satele's primary focus is Force Abilities and her Precog/Foresight is said to be rather miraculous and that her predictions are never wrong. So even in-character, while Kenobi is a superior duelist, he has no counter for Satele's superior force abilities which she does use even IC.

This is nice on-paper but I'd like to hear where any of this is put into practical use. And also, due to the fact Maul is a proficient telepath and has shown battle precog himself, he is rocking two different types of precognition simultaneously and that has never given him a massive edge over Kenobi.

And I'm still wondering why people keep using SWTOR characters against characters who are just better than them factually

I agree

It wouldn't be a stomp for Obi-Wan in round 2. His naturally defensive form prevents that, but he also possesses knowledge on Ataru (having used it himself).

ROTS Kenobi should be able to pull a majority despite Sateles superior force. Ill be back after Shadow of Revan.

Cant he just speedblitz her? What speed feats she has to prevent Obi Wan from speedblitzing?

She has speedblitzed trained Force sensitives before, and Kenobi hasn't ever speedblitzed anyone in a duel before, both due to morals and the fact he hasn't really met someone weak enough to blitz as far as I know. Main point being he wouldn't blitz Satele.

He fought Darth Maul many times, fought on equel terms with both Maul and Opress, fought equel with Anakin etc. Wanna see whom Satele speedblitzed. She never faced someone as fast as Vader, or Maul. And she lacks speedfeats. Why Obi Wan cant speedblitz her?

I'm perfectly aware of all of those feats, and they aren't even among Kenobi's best.

2:55-3:04

She doesn't need to have faced someone as fast as Maul to not be speedblitzed by Kenobi - how about you go about proving Kenobi can speedblitz her. You would need to provide me with an example of Kenobi speedblitzing someone as fast as Satele, which I think you'll find hard to do given Kenobi's defensive approach to fights, and the fact he isn't in a speed class sufficient to blitz her.

Ok. Obi-Wan Kenobi fought Maul many times and held his own against both Maul and Opress at the same time.

Here are some of Mauls speed feats:

1. Too fast for any holorecordings.

When he was satisfied that he had committed the results of his reconnaissance to memory, he shrugged out of his cloak and leapt straight up over the fence, landing precisely where some of the rocks he had tossed rested. Then he sprang to a series of other sites that ultimately carried him to the wall of the principal building, moving with such speed the entire time that whatever holorecordings were being made wouldn't show him unless they were played in slow motion.

-Taken from Darth Maul: Saboteur.

2. Moves in a blur.

Desperate, she reached for her wrist launcher. Her only chance was to hit the horned one squarely and hope that the explosion would be contained enough by the other's body to allow Lihnn to survive. But as she triggered the launcher the tattooed man seemed to disappear in a blur.

-Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.

3. Maul can move his hands in a blur.

He thumed on both blades as the next blaster bolt and half a dozen more came his way in rapid succession. The Sith apprentice's hands were a blur as he let the dark side take him over completely, giving in to its power and allowing it to control and manipulate him.

-Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.

4. Maul can create a web of light by his lightsaber.

He pressed the attack viciously, blocking and thrusting, the twin radiant blades spinning a web of light about him.

Taken from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.

5. And, finally, Maul is faster than Qui-Gon Jin, who can move his lightsaber in a blur.

Even without knowing anything else, Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly.

-Taken from The Phantom manace novel.

That are Darth Mauls feats. Savage Opress was fast enough to hold his own against Assajj Ventress and Obi-Wan himself for some time.

But what we know is that Obi-Wan held his own against both of them and even injured Savage. And Obi-Wan himself has great speed feats.

There is no chance for Satele to hold her own against Obi-Wan. He easily cuts her down. In other words, he speedblitz her.

@jedisupermaster:

Ok. Obi-Wan Kenobi fought Maul many times and held his own against both Maul and Opress at the same time.

Which doesn't justify being able to speedblitz Satele Shan.

Here are some of Mauls speed feats:

I'm aware of all of these feats, they're all in the respect thread I made for Darth Maul... I'm actually more than willing to bet that's where you pinched them from, but I digress...

Savage Opress was fast enough to hold his own against Assajj Ventress and Obi-Wan himself for some time.

Great.

But what we know is that Obi-Wan held his own against both of them and even injured Savage. And Obi-Wan himself has grat speed feats.

Holding his own against Maul and Savage simultaneously had more to do with his unorthodox burst of aggression than his speed.

Yes, I'm aware of his speed feats.

There is no chance for Satele to hold her own against Obi-Wan. He easily outclasses her. In another words, he speedblitz her.

If this is all your argument culminates to I see no reason to continue this debate.....

@i_like_swords:

False, he has gone for aggression in the past, i.e against Darth Maul and Savage Opress and probably other times I'm forgetting.

That's A- Specifically against those with personal ties to Kenobi. Maul murdered his master right in front of him and years later slaughtered civilians just to provoke Kenobi and continually taunted him about Qui-Gon's death. And Savage assaulted him and killed another Jedi right in front of him rather brutally. This pushes Obi-Wan out of his usual character.

Kenobi didn't even get aggressive, much less angry, even against Grievous and Ventress, nor even the slaver who was wailing on him in a fist fight while Anakin and Ahsoka disabled bombs around a city, much less when the Son was picking on them on Mortis.

Also, Soresu isn't only about wearing an opponent down, it's about counter-attacking and exploting gaps in ones defence - which will be pretty easy to do given Kenobi is several tiers ahead of Satele as a duelist, is well experienced with Saberstaffs after fighting three users of this type of blade, and the fact he has extensive knowledge on Ataru, which appears to be Satele's main form. She would leap over him and return to the ground in more pieces than one.

Opinion, not fact. Basic fact is that Satele is more experienced than Kenobi is at this stage. By RotS Kenobi is around 36-38yrs old. Satele was 18 when she first encountered Malgus. Then we have 28yrs of war against the Sith Empire. Satele is 46 by the end of the war, then we have 10yrs of cold war after the Treaty of Coruscant, so now she's 56, then about 2yrs after that the war kicks off again and now we're up to Revan's Initiative. Satele by right now is about 60yrs old.

Satele has at least two decades more experience than Obi-Wan does against a far more dangerous and varied group than Droids and More Droids and the occasional PIS fight with Ventress and Grievous, beyond his getting ragdolled by Dooku.

Satele is not so braindamaged and uncoordinated that Kenobi could exploit any weaknesses she might showcase. He Foresight makes up for any gap he might exploit and her Force abilities are well above his own showings. Satele has contended against a wider array of Sith and Mandalorians back when those titles actually carried weight. She's protected herself in a Force Cocoon against the vacuum of space and crushed Hex Droids with virtually no effort on her part.

I agree

*chop* don't try the jimmy rustle with that. If it wasn't for pre-established canon, Kenobi would've been killed way back in TPM, or by pretty much anyone between then and pre-RotS.

Can you bring here some of Satele Shan's feats to prove Obi Wan cant speedblitz her? Even Maul far outclasses her in speed departement.

Satele Shan has no speed to fight someone like Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan speedblitz.

@reikai:

That's A- Specifically against those with personal ties to Kenobi. Maul murdered his master right in front of him and years later slaughtered civilians just to provoke Kenobi and continually taunted him about Qui-Gon's death. And Savage assaulted him and killed another Jedi right in front of him rather brutally. This pushes Obi-Wan out of his usual character.

Actually, it was a tactical choice because he knew relying solely on defence in a cramped little cave against two physical behemoths would lead to him dying. In a last ditch effort he pulled out this crazy, aggressive Jar'kai form and it ended up working out for him. I'll take a picture of the quote from Shadow Conspiracy later on if you need me to.

Kenobi didn't even get aggressive, much less angry, even against Grievous and Ventress, nor even the slaver who was wailing on him in a fist fight while Anakin and Ahsoka disabled bombs around a city, much less when the Son was picking on them on Mortis.

He wasn't angry when he became uber-aggressive against Savage and Maul, either. You can fight aggressively without being angry. Maul tends to do better when Kenobi fights without a clear head, as seen during the TPM duel where Maul literally fed off of Kenobi's anger, and during their duel on the turtle tanker where Maul started kicking his ass after unbalancing him with Dun Moch.

Opinion, not fact. Basic fact is that Satele is more experienced than Kenobi is at this stage. By RotS Kenobi is around 36-38yrs old. Satele was 18 when she first encountered Malgus. Then we have 28yrs of war against the Sith Empire. Satele is 46 by the end of the war, then we have 10yrs of cold war after the Treaty of Coruscant, so now she's 56, then about 2yrs after that the war kicks off again and now we're up to Revan's Initiative. Satele by right now is about 60yrs old.

And when has experience ever counted for sh*t? Darth Maul was 22 when he fought Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi, the former who was something like quadruple his age, and their use of Ataru was still "just delaying tactics compared to his superior Sith technique". And saying Qui-Gon doesn't have "real war experience" isn't an argument - he's been noted as being one of the best swordsmen to ever be produced by the Jedi Order. And Obi-Wan himself, at the age of 24, was already a good enough swordsmen to legitimately challenge Qui-Gon despite their experience disparity.

Anakin was twenty something when he was matching Count Dooku.

Savage Opress was already at least challenging duelists like Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker and Asajj Ventress within months of being trained with a lightsaber.

Experience means nothing in comparison to actual feats.

Satele has at least two decades more experience than Obi-Wan does against a far more dangerous and varied group than Droids and More Droids and the occasional PIS fight with Ventress and Grievous, beyond his getting ragdolled by Dooku.

That's your argument? That Satele has fought scarier droids, that whenever Kenobi fights Ventress or Grievous it's due to PIS, and that getting ragdolled by Dooku telekinetically is a detriment to his saber skill? Outstanding, reikai, outstanding.

Also, let me know when Satele is effortlessly deflecting Count Dooku's saber.

- and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

credit to Nova

Satele is not so braindamaged and uncoordinated that Kenobi could exploit any weaknesses she might showcase.

It has nothing to do with her having brain damage... Kenobi has extensive knowledge of Ataru, he has plentiful experience with Saberstaffs, and he's a substantially more skilled duelist than Satele. There is nothing she could do to surprise him in the slightest...

He Foresight makes up for any gap he might exploit and her Force abilities are well above his own showings.

*is waiting for a practical application of Foresight worth jacksh*t*

If her foresight was so useful it might have helped prevent Malgus from cutting her saberstaff in half - something Kenobi has already done to a far more skilled duelist in Darth Maul, in a much less skilled incarnation of himself.

Satele has contended against a wider array of Sith and Mandalorians back when those titles actually carried weight.

Titles don't carry weight, period. Feats carry weight. Something you seem to be incapable of providing when debating in place of your ceaseless fanwanking and yacking about experience and other unquantifiable, useless traits one may bring to a fight.

She's protected herself in a Force Cocoon against the vacuum of space and crushed Hex Droids with virtually no effort on her part.

That's nice, but it has nothing to do with a dueling scenario, and I never asserted the point that she couldn't wreck Kenobi with the Force.

*chop* don't try the jimmy rustle with that. If it wasn't for pre-established canon, Kenobi would've been killed way back in TPM, or by pretty much anyone between then and pre-RotS.

> Implying Darth Maul, General Grievous, Count Dooku ect wouldn't have an even easier time killing Satele Shan those periods of her life?

Kenobi

I have to sigh every time, when experience is brought up for SW chars. Yeah...it's great and all, but that doesn't really mean much at least for Force Users, Non-Force Users, it does have a little more significance.

I personally think this thread must be locked. Obi-Wan slaughters, easily. He is far faster than Satele and greater as a lightsaber duelist.

Satele Shan.

Obi-Wan in a good fight.

Fixed.

@jedisupermaster:

If you honestly believe that, I have nothing to say, but nonsese.

The speed difference between the two is minimal at best and will have little to no barring on this bout.

Is minimal? Bring here Satele's speed feats that are at least close to those of Obi-Wan.

Satele due to force abilities.

Her force abilities are useless against someone who far exceeds her in speed and reaction.

@jedisupermaster: Can you even prove that? And no, even if kenobi is faster, that doesn't make her force abilities useless.

I already put here some of Maul and Savage Opresses feats and we know Obi-Wan hold his own against both of them and even managed to injure Savage. Can you bring here some of Satele's speed feats?

Obi-Wan can take her out before she can use her force abilities, for example.

@jedisupermaster: Rofl, when has Obi-Wan ever speed blitz anyone in a duel? I'm willing to agree Obi-Wan is faster, but not by so much that Satele can't even do anything. In the Hope trailer for SWTOR Satele speed blitz Sith warriors and droids.

Eldon Ax, somebody who has swung her blade like a propeller, remarks that Shan's speed is unbelievable:

The Grand Master had impressed with more than her telekinetic and telepathic skills. Her speed and decisiveness in combat were unbelievable - but she never once made a sound.

She precedes Shigar like a canonball:

The corridor blurred. Master Satele preceded him like a cannonball, blowing the hex backward, out of the wreckage and into space.Source: Fatal Alliance

Shan moves from a standing start with speed that surprises Ax, and the latter is forced to hustle to merely keep up:

Satele Shan moved from a standing start with surprising speed. Ax was taken by surprise, and had to hustle to keep up.

Source: Fatal Alliance

Taken from shooting novas respect thread.

It is still not as impressive as Obi-Wans feats, who can fight with 2 characters at once while one of those characters has better speed feats than Satele. And he not only held his own, but managed to hurt one of those characters.

@jedisupermaster: Even if it's not AS impressive, it's still impressive. So far nothing has convinced me Obi-Wan is much faster than her. In a straight up lightsaber duel Obi-Wan would win, however if Satele has access to her force powers, there's not much Kenobi can do. He isn't exactly incredibly resistant to force powers.

Obi-Wans feats are miles above that of Satele's. He is much faster than her because he can beat characters that also have speed feats miles above that of Satele's. And he can fight 2 characters, with speed feats more impressive that Satele's, at once. He is too fast for Satele to handle.

@jedisupermaster: Many force users can fight 2 opponents at once. What makes you think Satele can't? In the trailer for SWTOR she pwned some sith warriors effortlessly.

Satele wont be able to fight Maul and Savage at the same time. Because she has no speed and no skill to do that. And in the trailer, she beat cannon fodders.

@jedisupermaster: Obi-Wan is most likely faster, I don't disagree with you, but there's no way he's just gonna speed blitz. Give me a example of when he speed blitzed someone in a duel. There's no way he's gonna speed blitz satele, even if he could. That's not how he fights. And rofl, Satele has no speed? I already posted some of her speed feats. I'm willing to bet she's more than capable of fending off 2 opponents at once. If she had no skill, how would she have achieved Grand Master rank? Something Obi-Wan never achieved by the way. Also, those people are more than just fodder, they are trained force users and combat specialists.

Most likely? He is faster for sure. Much faster than Satele. Because he has much more impressive feats than she does.

He never fought such a slow character as Satele in a duel. All his opponents were very fast.

She is not able to fend off Maul and Savage Opress at the same time. Maul alone can beat her due to his speed and skill with a lightsaber.

And rank has nothing to do with speed and power. That era was era of weaklings if you compare that era to era of Galactic Republic. There are planty of characters from GR Era who can beat any force-user of The Old Republic era.

They are fodders. They have no feats. They are nonames. Thats it.

Obi-Wan speedblitz her, just like Anakin blitzed a lot of jedi in a temple, just like Maul blitzed Savage. He completely outclasses her in speed and lightsaber skill departement. Her force abilities will be useless against such a fast opponent.

@jedisupermaster:

@zaluk said:

@jedisupermaster:

Do you have something to add on topic?

@zaluk: We forgot that she fought Darth Baras during the war, before he turned into a giant fat bastard. And we know he's the final boss for the Sith Warrior campaign.

Does he have any good speed feats?

Satele blows him through a mountain, because it's her only really decent feat.

She only accomplished that because of the lightsaber energy she had absorbed beforehand, plus she has other impressive feats of power like crushing/imploding Hex droids with a gesture, or stunning them in mid-air with a look. Hex droids that were capable of resisting being crushed by another Force User, making them pretty durable. She's also shattered a blast door with little effort with what appeared to be Shatterpoint.

She misses with that force blow and Obi-Wan decapitates her.

@i_like_swords: That makes a lot of sense, didn't know that. I would give it to a bloodlusted Obi-Wan though, just because of more feats.

Shan's telekinesis is good enough to break through Kenobi's force shield, the latter of which has been been portrayed as relatively weak in various showings, namely in his fight with Dooku in ROTS.

At the very least Ben will halve her Saberstaff,

If they were bloodlusted Satele would choke him out or throw him into a wall until he's rendered unconscious, and Kenobi duels more poorly when bloodlusted due to his fighting style.

Satele is much slower than Obi-Wan. There is no way even bloodlusted Satele can beat him.

@i_like_swords: Truly, I am impressed by your SW knowledge! Alongside Silver, JXM, ShootingNova and DC, you guys blow my mind whenever you discuss Star Wars to this extent.