Saruman vs Albus Dumbledore

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Dumbledore.

Can Saruman use his Voice to control Dumbledore?

@Kellar21 said:

Can Saruman use his Voice to control Dumbledore?

Bump.

I doubt it, Dumbledore is a master occlumens so I doubt that would work on him.

As for this I say Dumbledore takes it. If he has the elder wand he possibly curbstomps. Saruman can try to use Fire against dumbledore but Dumbledore can deflect it, then he can probably incase Saruman in water and suffocate him, thus ending him.

@Kingjohnrocks

I don't think his voice is anything similar to legimelincy(sp?),it's one of the few "divine" powers he was allowed to use IIRC,it complemented his eloquency.Gandalf was immune due to the act he was maiar.

@Kellar21 said:

@Kingjohnrocks

I don't think his voice is anything similar to legimelincy(sp?),it's one of the few "divine" powers he was allowed to use IIRC,it complemented his eloquency.Gandalf was immune due to the act he was maiar.

Legilimency can be used to access thoughts, possess people and control there mind like a puppet (what Voldemort did to Harry, what Snape did to Harry when he was accessing his thoughts, etc)

Saruman's voice can take over someone's mind/mind control. Occulmency is a counter for Legilimency, and Legilimency is mind control and many other things to do with the mind. So it's safe to believe since Dumbledore is a master Occlumens then Saruman's voice would have no power over him.

Those are completely imcompatible things IMO,one is a divine power while the other is magic,Saruman's Voice is more like sugestion hypnotism,hmm now that I think about it,Theoden resisted it(even though Saruman was diminished),well I guess Dumbledore can resist it given his strong will(he has a strong will right?),thing for me is more like a Jedi Mind Trick than TP(oh the irony).

So well,Saruman may lose as physical combat isn't his type of thing(he is a Maiar of Aule the smith,he is like an enginner),still I thought the Master Wand thing worked only on other wands and the only thing it did was grant a big boost of power not make one invincible.

@Kellar21

one is a divine power while the other is magic,Saruman's Voice is more like sugestion hypnotism

Source saying Saruman's voice is divine?

well I guess Dumbledore can resist it given his strong will(he has a strong will right?),thing for me is more like a Jedi Mind Trick than TP(oh the irony).

1. Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak minded.

2. Yes Dumbledore has a strong will, I think when your weakened and on the verge of death and you can do this:

Pretty strong will.

So well,Saruman may lose as physical combat isn't his type of thing(he is a Maiar of Aule the smith,he is like an enginner),still I thought the Master Wand thing worked only on other wands and the only thing it did was grant a big boost of power not make one invincible.

The elder wand is a amp to make you unbeatable in battle. However see that Voldemort stalemated Dumbledore when he had the Elder Wand. However Saruman is nowhere near Voldemort's power.

Saurumon would probably lose, but not without a good fight.

Well, the problem is, none of harry potter characters have even planet scale feats. That makes comparing them to a universal scale character a bit.. idiotic.

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

Well, the problem is, none of harry potter characters have even planet scale feats. That makes comparing them to a universal scale character a bit.. idiotic.

How is Saruman a universal scale character exactly?

@rolldestroyer said:

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

Well, the problem is, none of harry potter characters have even planet scale feats. That makes comparing them to a universal scale character a bit.. idiotic.

How is Saruman a universal scale character exactly?

He is one of the Ainur. Who created the Lotrverse..

curbstomp

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

Well, the problem is, none of harry potter characters have even planet scale feats. That makes comparing them to a universal scale character a bit.. idiotic.

How is Saruman a universal scale character exactly?

He is one of the Ainur. Who created the Lotrverse..

from what i know, god of lotr (forgot his name) was the one who created the universe, am i wrong?

@rolldestroyer said:

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

Well, the problem is, none of harry potter characters have even planet scale feats. That makes comparing them to a universal scale character a bit.. idiotic.

How is Saruman a universal scale character exactly?

He is one of the Ainur. Who created the Lotrverse..

from what i know, god of lotr (forgot his name) was the one who created the universe, am i wrong?

Some what.. If I remember right, he created themes, and these guys sang. That's what created the world. Morgoth, bad guy naturally, went against God and corrupted the songs.. he was admonished for that, but he still went about corrupting random races, and also,he is guilty of corrupting the famous Sauron, the lord of the rings of whom you may have heard of..

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

Well, the problem is, none of harry potter characters have even planet scale feats. That makes comparing them to a universal scale character a bit.. idiotic.

How is Saruman a universal scale character exactly?

He is one of the Ainur. Who created the Lotrverse..

from what i know, god of lotr (forgot his name) was the one who created the universe, am i wrong?

Some what.. If I remember right, he created themes, and these guys sang. That's what created the world. Morgoth, bad guy naturally, went against God and corrupted the songs.. he was admonished for that, but he still went about corrupting random races, and also,he is guilty of corrupting the famous Sauron, the lord of the rings of whom you may have heard of..

but Saruman is in a human body, his power is limited

@name12345 said:

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@rolldestroyer said:

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

Well, the problem is, none of harry potter characters have even planet scale feats. That makes comparing them to a universal scale character a bit.. idiotic.

How is Saruman a universal scale character exactly?

He is one of the Ainur. Who created the Lotrverse..

from what i know, god of lotr (forgot his name) was the one who created the universe, am i wrong?

Some what.. If I remember right, he created themes, and these guys sang. That's what created the world. Morgoth, bad guy naturally, went against God and corrupted the songs.. he was admonished for that, but he still went about corrupting random races, and also,he is guilty of corrupting the famous Sauron, the lord of the rings of whom you may have heard of..

but Saruman is in a human body, his power is limited

Agreed. But we don't know how limited.. on one side, we have Gandalf throwing pinecones at the wolves, and at other, we have balrogs scaring away ungoliant, who had just eaten life essence of the tree, of which sun is a just a fruit. Curse tolkein for being so consistant feat unfriendly. Because, if a human form Gandalf is in at least star level league (magically at least), he won't be getting hurt by anything an HP wizard throws at him..

Gandalf would own Dumbledore...not sure about Saruman though.

I think Saruman would murk Voldemort honestly for the dude who said that. Afterall he did outmatch Gandalf the grey(although to be fair he stole his staff so lol)

I think overall Dumbledore should win in the end for this battle, but Saruman is no slouch. If dumbledore doesn't go hard at him or if Saruman pulls a stealing or breaking his weapon like he did to Gandalf, it's game over for Dumbledore.

@Vaeternus said:

Gandalf would own Dumbledore...not sure about Saruman though.

I think Saruman would murk Voldemort honestly for the dude who said that. Afterall he did outmatch Gandalf the grey(although to be fair he stole his staff so lol)

I think overall Dumbledore should win in the end for this battle, but Saruman is no slouch. If dumbledore doesn't go hard at him or if Saruman pulls a stealing or breaking his weapon like he did to Gandalf, it's game over for Dumbledore.

Not really. Saruman wouldn't even come close to murking Voldemort before Voldemort can bombard him with spells.

Also, Gandalf goes invisible here and then sends reducto to Saruman and decimates his body, or he simply summons a fire storm.

@Kingjohnrocks

Well, considering Saruman gave Gandalf(the grey) issues who's no slouch I'd wager he'd take out Dumbledore who took a straight shot and fell off a balcony...perhaps Saruman wouldn't "destroy" Dumbledore but he has the edge, unless Dumbledore can take his staff which I don't see happening.

Gandalf the white different story entirely...I believe he's way more powerful then both Saruman and Dumbledore.

I want feats. I don't care about your beliefs. 5 LOTR and Harry Potter experts have agreed that the only version of Saruman or Gandalf that can kill Dumbledore or Voldemort are the full forms. The full forms are gods and immortal.

Dumbledore's death was PLANNED. Avada Kedavra could have been easy dodged/deflected. He ASKED Snape to kill him when the time was right. He could have easily destroyed every single Death Eater there on spot. Easily.

Gandalf the Grey stands no chance against Dumbledore.. Dumbledore simply goes Invisible, casts Reducto on Gandalf's staff, then scorches Gandalf with a Fire Storm. Gandalf the Grey is outmatched and outdone when it comes to Dumbledore. Read Harry Potter's books. I'm not going to tolerate your Fanboyism like I did in the Palpatine vs Gandalf thread.

How can Saruman destroy Dumbledore? Dumbledore can simply go invisible and kill him! Plus he can take out his staff with one word, "Reducto". Saruman's voice does nothing to Dumbledore because he is skilled in Occlumency and Occlumency defends against Magical intrusion and influence:

"Snape continued to survey him through narrowed eyes for a moment, then said, 'Now, Occlumency. As I told you back in your dear godfather's kitchen, this branch of magic seals the mind against magical intrusion and influence."

Taken from: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix.

So, explain to me, how does Saruman destroy Dumbledore? All Dumbledore really has to do here is Reducto and then Langlock. Then KO Saruman with a forceful spell.

Saruman wins. He would control Dumbledore with his voice of power.

@kingjohnrocks, Feats? lol Gandalf coming back from death and defeating a balrog, not to mention being 10x more powerful, there's yours feats...I'm sure even Gandalf the grey can handle Dumbledore, and if not the white would murk him....just read a LOTR book...Saruman is debatable and not Gandalf... but Gandalf the White would murk Dumbledore ten fold, period. Even movie versions of him which doesn't do Gandalf nearly a justice, and with respect I don't care what other people think. The books are VERY different from the films in LOTR..

Most likely, and nor would Gandalf lose so easily like Dumbledore did in HP series...he took a cast shot from a lower tier black magic wizard, not even from baldy there lol.

@omgomgwtfwtf: Not really. Occlumency is clear: It seals the mind from magical intrusion and influence. Mind Control is intrusion, Saruman's mind control is Magical. Occlumency acts like a shield against it. Plus if Dumbledore is invisible Saruman will not know what hit him.

@vaeternus

Feats? lol Gandalf coming back from death and defeating a balrog, not to mention being 10x more powerful, there's yours feats

Really? Are you serious? You know nothing about LOTR. Gandalf didn't come back under his own power, Eru brought him back. There's absoloutly NO indication he did it under his own power and NO indication Eru would bring Gandalf back, again.

I'm sure even Gandalf the grey can handle Dumbledore, and if not the white would murk him....

Seriously? 1. Dumbledore would make Gandalf the Grey's staff explode easily with a phrase.

2. Dumbledore would then go invisible and sneak up behind Gandalf and turn him into a tea-cup. Or Dumbledore can just make a large Fire Storm and toast Gandalf from the start.

3. The only version of the White that "murks" Dumbledore is the full unrestricted version, the god-immortal version that is.

.just read a LOTR book

That is always the favorite qoute of LOTR fanboys,(not saying your one) "Read the books" I've read all the books. All.

Saruman is debatable and not Gandalf.

So Saruman the White, the guy who is more powerful then Gandalf, is debatable but Gandalf is not? They're both Istari. They're both Wizards. They're both equally powerful. Gandalf the Grey would go down easily to Dumbledore, Gandalf the White would also go down easily. Only version that wouldn't is full unrestricted.

But let me destroy the Saruman argument with a few facts.

1. "Dumbledore would get mind-raped" No, actually, Dumbledore is an accomplished Occlumens. And we all know what Occlumency does. Let's see what Snape says.

Snape continued to survey him through narrowed eyes for a moment, then said, 'Now, Occlumency. As I told you back in your dear godfather's kitchen, this branch of magic seals the mind against magical intrusion and influence.'

Taken From: Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

Wait, I'm sure Snape was 100% percise and clear when he said intrusion and influence. Mind Control is trying to intrude into the Mind, hijack it and influence it. Occlumency protects against Mind Control. Mind Control is now not an option factually.

2. "Dumbledore took a shot from a low-tier black magic Wizard". Really? Let's see Dumbledore and Snape discuss what you just said, they have some things to correct you on:

"All the same, try. I am concerned less for myself than for accidental victims of whatever schemes might occur to the boy. Ultimately, of course, there is only one thing to be done if we are to save him from Lord Voldemort's wrath."

Snape raised his eyebrows and his tone was sardonic as he asked, "Are you intending to let him kill you?"

"Certainly not. You must kill me."

There was a long silence, broken only by an odd clicking noise. Fawkes the phoenix was gnawing a bit of cuttlebone.

"Would you like me to do it now?" asked Snape, his voice heavy with irony. "Or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?"

"Oh, not quite yet," said Dumbledore, smiling. "I daresay the moment will present itself in due course. Given what has happened tonight," he indicated his withered hand, "we can be sure that it will happen within a year."

"If you don't mind dying," said Snape roughly, "why not let Draco do it?"

"That boy's soul is not yet so damaged," said Dumbledore. "I would not have it ripped apart on my account."

"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"

"You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation," said Dumbledore. "I ask this one great favor of you, Severus, because death is coming for me as surely as the Chudley Cannons will finish bottom of this year's league. I confess I should prefer a quick, painless exit to the protracted and messy affair it will be if, for instance, Greyback is involved ¨C I hear Voldemort has recruited him? Or dear Bellatrix, who likes to play with her food before she eats it."

His tone was light, but his blue eyes pierced Snape as they had frequently pierced Harry, as though the soul they discussed was visible to him. At last Snape gave another curt nod.

Dumbledore seemed satisfied.

"Thank you, Severus..."

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 33

So basically, we just saw Dumbledore plan his own death. Plus Snape has spells he doesn't need to utter, he can fly (He and Voldemort are the only Wizards who can fly without brooms) He is the most powerful Occlumens, Dumbledore and Voldemort being below him in that category. But of course none of this is relevant because Dumbledore planned his own death, and would decimate Snape in reality.

Now, what will Dumbledore do against Saruman here? Go invisible for one. After that scorch Saruman with a fire storm:

But then, through the darkness, fire erupted: crimson and gold, a ring of fire that surrounded the rock so that the Inferi holding Harry so tightly stumbled and faltered; they did not dare pass through the flames to get to the water. They dropped Harry; he hit the ground, slipped on the rock, and fell, grazing his arms, then scrambled back up, raising his wand and staring around.

Dumbledore was on his feet again, pale as any of the surrounding Inferi, but taller than any too, the fire dancing in his eyes; his wand was raised like a torch and from its tip emanated the flames, like a vast lasso, encircling them all with warmth.

The Inferi bumped into each other, attempting, blindly, to escape the fire in which they were enclosed...

Dumbledore scooped the locket from the bottom of the stone basin and stowed it inside his robes. Wordlessly, he gestured to Harry to come to his side. Distracted by the flames, the Inferi seemed unaware that their quarry was leaving as Dumbledore led Harry back to the boat, the ring of fire moving with them, around them, the bewildered Inferi accompanying them to the waters edge, where they slipped gratefully back into their dark waters.

Harry, who was shaking all over, thought for a moment that Dumbledore might not be able to climb into the boat; he staggered a little as he attempted it; all his efforts seemed to be going into maintaining the ring of protective flame around them. Harry seized him and helped him back to his seat. Once they were both safely jammed inside again, the boat began to move back across the black water, away from the rock, still encircled by that ring of fire, and it seemed that the Inferi swarming below them did not dare resurface.

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince

Saruman isn't escaping that

Conclusion: Dumbledore decimates.

@kingjohnrocks: Nothing you said disproves Saruman's voice from affecting Dumbledore. Everything you said is pure speculation at best. Basically you're saying occlumency protects you from mind control when it really only protects you from legimency. It's not a proven technique versus all forms of mind control because that would be a no limits fallacy. It's like saying Magneto's helmet would protect him from the Phoenix mind raping him merely because it can stop telepathic intrusion. Saruman's voice has never been called magical at all in the books, it was never defined as such. For a person who supposedly read the books you should know this. It's a natural ability of his, nothing to do with magic. He was able to use it even after his staff was broken. Saruman's voice affects anyone who doesn't wear a ring of power (i.e. Gandalf, Galadriel, Elron, etc.).

<p>&lt;p&gt;@king, you are so off with lotr lore, no offense. First off, no dumbledore won't break crap again he lost and got killed to a low tier witch who is far from the most powerful in hpu, so humor me...

Secondly, who cares if gandalf came back under his own power or not he still did it period, thats irrelevant did dumbledore come back from a MUCH lesser fall no less compared to what gandalf went through? uhh no....so believe your own fiction if you will...lol no dumbledore wont be turning invisible and if he did gandalf would know hes there just as he knew bilbo was hiding via the ring he detected in his pocket.

Gandalf the white in general would mop the floor with dumbdleore,end of story. But feel free to deny this, clearly you dont follow lotr. You obviously never read the books so yes i can tell this, read a lotr book please. Uhh no, saruman is not more powerful then gandalf, you're are beyond wrong here...for one gandalf busted sarumans staff in the movie and proved his power was greater when he freed the king from saruman's power, and knocked saruman on his a$$ in the process...so yes gandalf is more powerful then saruman, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know lotr obviously...the only version of saruman that is more powerful is gandalf the grey and even him he struggled with so he had to steal his staff....At the end of the day, lotr wizards would thrash anyone in hp, period. If balrog fought dumbledore, he's make dogmeat out of him being as again he got killed with a straight blast from a lowtier witch....thats not even that powerful i might add. Nuff said.

Gandalf and saruman>>>>>>>dumbledore..period

oh.. not this again. If you like hp and want albus to be able to fight, put them in their physical form, and if you want him to be lolstomped, or get your thread locked for spite, put him in his full/maiar form.

Sarumaun FTW!

@vaeternus

you are so off with lotr lore, no offense.

HOW? I have used FACTS. Eru brung back Gandalf. That is a FACT. Gandalf said it himself. F.A.C.T fact.

First off, no dumbledore won't break crap

Saruman's staff is a solid object. Reducto destroys solid objects. Dumbledore can do it.

again he lost and got killed to a low tier witch who is far from the most powerful in hpu, so humor me...

Are you talking about Draco or Snape here? He let Draco knock the wand out of his hand. Infact, he let Snape kill him and ASKED Snape to kill him to protect Draco. Can't you read?

"All the same, try. I am concerned less for myself than for accidental victims of whatever schemes might occur to the boy. Ultimately, of course, there is only one thing to be done if we are to save him from Lord Voldemort's wrath."

Snape raised his eyebrows and his tone was sardonic as he asked, "Are you intending to let him kill you?"

"Certainly not. You must kill me."

There was a long silence, broken only by an odd clicking noise. Fawkes the phoenix was gnawing a bit of cuttlebone.

"Would you like me to do it now?" asked Snape, his voice heavy with irony. "Or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?"

"Oh, not quite yet," said Dumbledore, smiling. "I daresay the moment will present itself in due course. Given what has happened tonight," he indicated his withered hand, "we can be sure that it will happen within a year."

"If you don't mind dying," said Snape roughly, "why not let Draco do it?"

"That boy's soul is not yet so damaged," said Dumbledore. "I would not have it ripped apart on my account."

"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"

"You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation," said Dumbledore. "I ask this one great favor of you, Severus, because death is coming for me as surely as the Chudley Cannons will finish bottom of this year's league. I confess I should prefer a quick, painless exit to the protracted and messy affair it will be if, for instance, Greyback is involved ¨C I hear Voldemort has recruited him? Or dear Bellatrix, who likes to play with her food before she eats it."

His tone was light, but his blue eyes pierced Snape as they had frequently pierced Harry, as though the soul they discussed was visible to him. At last Snape gave another curt nod.

Dumbledore seemed satisfied.

"Thank you, Severus..."

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 33

Dumbledore ASKED Snape to KILL him. I just qouted half a chapter. You can not deny the FACTS. He did not just get "beat". Dumbledore asked SNAPE to kill him.

Secondly, who cares if gandalf came back under his own power or not he still did it period,

Eru brought him back, Dumbledore did nothing at all.

thats irrelevant did dumbledore come back from a MUCH lesser fall no less compared to what gandalf went through

This would be relevant if Snape hit him with stunning spell. No, Snape hit him with a killing curse that KILLED on impact. The moment the spell hit Dumbledore he died. Plus: HE PLANNED HIS OWN DEATH. HE PLANNED HIS OWN DEATH. HE PLANNED HIS OWN DEATH. What don't you get?

uhh no....so believe your own fiction if you will.

Dumbledore PLANNED his own DEATH. It's not fiction, it's in the quote I just gave you above!

.lol no dumbledore wont be turning invisible and if he did gandalf would know hes there just as he knew bilbo was hiding via the ring he detected in his pocket.

`1. Dumbledore can turn invisible so it is a viable option.

2. The Ring has never detected an invisible person, and Dumbledore doesn't need a ring to go invisible.

Gandalf the white in general would mop the floor with dumbdleore,end of story.

You have no feats to back this up. You only have one feat which belongs to Eru (The omnipotent god of LOTR).

But feel free to deny this, clearly you dont follow lotr.

I've read all the books, all of them. I know clearly that Tolkien is vague on Gandalf the White's power.

You obviously never read the books so yes i can tell this, read a lotr book please

I've read them all and obviously know the limits of Gandalf's power. Your the one who said Gandalf the White would MURK Darth Sidious, the guy who summons wormholes and goes near Faster then light speeds! Now THAT is humor.

But this is about Saruman

Uhh no, saruman is not more powerful then gandalf, you're are beyond wrong here.

Feats from the book, please?

for one gandalf busted sarumans staff in the movie and proved his power was greater when he freed the king from saruman's power

He busted his staff by kicking him out the order. Nothing more, nothing less.

and knocked saruman on his a$$ in the process...so yes gandalf is more powerful then saruman, anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know lotr obviously.

Saruman was kicked from the White Council so he lost his staff. That's not "OMGPOWERFUL" power.

the only version of saruman that is more powerful is gandalf the grey and even him he struggled with so he had to steal his staff....At the end of the day, lotr wizards would thrash anyone in hp, period

This isn't true, actually. Based on feats all of Hogwarts make Gandalf and Saruman look like child's play. Massive firestorms, going invisible, jelly legs curse, explosive spells, teleporting at instant, flying without brooms, potions, etc.

If balrog fought dumbledore, he's make dogmeat out of him being as again he got killed with a straight blast from a lowtier witch

,Let's go straight to your fanboyism. Dumbledore would actually win if he fought a Balrog. Dumbledore has hydrokenetic spells (water spells) so all he really has to do is drench him in Water (Balrogs have died from water before) and then use Levicorpus to knock him off the bridge and he's dead. So Dumbledore would practically stomp one.

As for the blast, I'l say this again: DUMBLEDORE PLANNED HIS OWN DEATH. DUMBLEDORE PLANNED HIS OWN DEATH. DUMBLEDORE PLANNED HIS OWN DEATH. DUMBLEDO- Can I stop saying it? I gave you book proof he planned his own death, you deny it. Plus that was Avada Kedavra, it kills anything and everything on impact.

..thats not even that powerful i might add. Nuff said.

Dumbledore planned his own death. Let me show you again:

"All the same, try. I am concerned less for myself than for accidental victims of whatever schemes might occur to the boy. Ultimately, of course, there is only one thing to be done if we are to save him from Lord Voldemort's wrath."

Snape raised his eyebrows and his tone was sardonic as he asked, "Are you intending to let him kill you?"

"Certainly not. You must kill me."

There was a long silence, broken only by an odd clicking noise. Fawkes the phoenix was gnawing a bit of cuttlebone.

"Would you like me to do it now?" asked Snape, his voice heavy with irony. "Or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?"

"Oh, not quite yet," said Dumbledore, smiling. "I daresay the moment will present itself in due course. Given what has happened tonight," he indicated his withered hand, "we can be sure that it will happen within a year."

"If you don't mind dying," said Snape roughly, "why not let Draco do it?"

"That boy's soul is not yet so damaged," said Dumbledore. "I would not have it ripped apart on my account."

"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"

"You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation," said Dumbledore. "I ask this one great favor of you, Severus, because death is coming for me as surely as the Chudley Cannons will finish bottom of this year's league. I confess I should prefer a quick, painless exit to the protracted and messy affair it will be if, for instance, Greyback is involved ¨C I hear Voldemort has recruited him? Or dear Bellatrix, who likes to play with her food before she eats it."

His tone was light, but his blue eyes pierced Snape as they had frequently pierced Harry, as though the soul they discussed was visible to him. At last Snape gave another curt nod.

Dumbledore seemed satisfied.

"Thank you, Severus..."

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 33

My argument still stands. Dumbledore planned his own death.

Stop being a fanboy.

Dumbledore stomps

@kingofjohns, On the contrary clearly this thread is evidence everyone else here follows LOTR way more then you do...Only person here who's coming off as a fanboy is you....majority people here of the topic disagrees with you and you're seriously underestimating or just not familiar with LOTR characters, their wizards are way more powerful then HPU wizards...Yeah, that's whys that topic was 50/50 right? And Sidious is overrated, the guy got owned by Han Solo getting shot off guard(so powerful lol) in the back so please...

Saruman wasn't kicked by anyone except Gandalf...he lost his army and power during Two Towers arch and was literally surrounded by Gandalf and his group....he has no power by that time, the few pitiful attempts left Gandalf thwarted off like nothing...and again Gandalf owned him from miles and miles away via his power, while freeing the King that is power. Talk to me when dummydore has done anything like such. Exactly, Gandalf did so AFTER Saruman attacked him which did nothing to Gandalf what so ever, thus without even trying he busted Saruman's staff...again, feats from the books were better then on screen, which was still cool but the books give you a better clue as to how powerful the wizards are.

Dumdledore didn't plan his own death...that would be the most dumb plot twist ever, and Gandalf at least came back from death(again nobody cares if Eru did it or Gandalf) that's not the point, point is simple

Gandalf died, Gandalf came back more powerful I might add and Gandalf in general is a Mair he's an immortal entity created by Eru...Dumbledore can't hold a lick to Gandalf's power...

You said Gandalf's staff, not Saruman's....Gandalf is more powerful then Dumble so again not happening and I doubt he can do it to Saruman the white either...proof of him doing suck to anyone on Gandalf or Saruman power scale? Nope..

Doubtful, again Dumbledore got owned and killed by a FAR lesser wizard in Snape(someone under him no less) in power then someone like Balrog(a middle earth demon) so humor me seriously....he'd turn Dumbledore to putty if he fought a Balrog(and who mentioned Draco? Draco didn't kill Dumbledore so why mention him?)...and is not nearly as good a fighter as Gandalf is, at least Gandalf is versatile with sword, shield besides his power. Dumbledore is just the "friendly granny with a few tricks" in comparison...

]Saruman wasn't kicked by anyone except Gandalf...he lost his army and power during Two Towers arch and was literally surrounded by Gandalf and his group....he has no power by that time, the few pitiful attempts left Gandalf thwarted off like nothing...and again Gandalf owned him from miles and miles away via his power, while freeing the King that is power. Talk to me when dummydore has done anything like such. Exactly, Gandalf did so AFTER Saruman attacked him which did nothing to Gandalf what so ever, thus without even trying he busted Saruman's staff...again, feats from the books were better then on screen, which was still cool but the books give you a better clue as to how powerful the wizards are.

When did Saruman attack Gandalf, never happened, or if it did it was never described.

It was Wormtounge and not Saruman who was controlling Théoden. Although Wormtounge was under Sarumans influence, but Gandalf was unable to free him. Although a combination between Sarumans abuse and the words from the hobbits did allow Wormtounge to break free of the control...

The snapping of Sarumans staff was symbolic, stripping him of his authority to act in middle earth. Without that 'authority' his ability to act and influence others was greatly weaken but his inate powers remained.

I might add and Gandalf in general is a Mair he's an immortal entity created by Eru...Dumbledore can't hold a lick to Gandalf's power...

Gandalf only has the power which Eru gave him, he could of been insanely powerful but Eru did not make him or the other Maiar in that fashion. Just look at the 'deaths' of other Maiar. Gothmog died with a spiked helmet shoved through his chest, Glorfindel killed a Balrog by throwing it off a mountainside, Gandalf killed Durins bane in the same fashion, Saruman died when Wormtounge slit his throat, Sauron was killed several times, once by devine intervention and again by spear and sword blows. The Maiar might of had devine origins but they are not insanely powerful beings.

I made one final point, the Balrog which Gandalf killed was a coward. It fled and hid rather then to fight in the War of Wrath. Then it spent thousands of years hiding deep underground. It eventually was disturbed by the dwarves, who it went on to defeat but the Balrog still was not prepared to return to the surface and remained in hiding. It did have the confidence to fight against Gandalf and the fellowship, maybe the lure of gaining the ring of power overcome its fear. But after falling from the bridge, the Balrog spent days running from Gandalf and trying to escape. So I have the impression that the Balrog which Gandalf defeated was one of the weaker maiar to begin with.

@vaeternus

On the contrary clearly this thread is evidence everyone else here follows LOTR way more then you do...Only person here who's coming off as a fanboy is you....majority people here of the topic disagrees with you and you're seriously underestimating or just not familiar with LOTR characters, their wizards are way more powerful then HPU wizards...Yeah, that's whys that topic was 50/50 right? And Sidious is overrated, the guy got owned by Han Solo getting shot off guard(so powerful lol) in the back so please...

Oh, my dear. I'm coming off as a FANBOY? Your saying the guy who strikes at FTL speeds and opens up rifts in Space Time would DIE to Gandalf and I am being the fanboy?! Dear goodness. Know more about LOTR then me?

What are the Valar, Ainur,Istari, and what is Ungoliant? What is your favorite Culture of dwarves? What are Orcs? I know all of these, do you know them without Google? Most people on this thread actually agree Saruman goes down.

Saruman wasn't kicked by anyone except Gandalf

I said Saruman was kicked out of the order, which is why his staff broke. Fact.

.he lost his army and power during Two Towers arch and was literally surrounded by Gandalf and his group..

The Ents had to do with him losing his Army, not Gandalf.

he has no power by that time,

Actually he does. Where does it say he doesn't? When he lost his color (was kicked out of the order) he had no more power.

the few pitiful attempts left Gandalf thwarted off like nothing...and again Gandalf owned him from miles and miles away via his power, while freeing the King that is power

Why is this a big battle feat? There's many characters who have resisted possession and kicked possession out of them in HP.

Talk to me when dummydore has done anything like such.

Possession? Influencing possession out of someone? He got through to Harry and helped him fight off Voldemort's possession (Voldemort can possess animals, things, people, insects, etc by the way)

Exactly, Gandalf did so AFTER Saruman attacked him which did nothing to Gandalf what so ever

1. The Deleted scene is non-canon. There was no fire-ball in the books to my understanding. The only reason Gandalf broke his staff is because he kicked him from the White Council. Nothing more, nothing less.

thus without even trying he busted Saruman's staff...again, feats from the books were better then on screen, which was still cool but the books give you a better clue as to how powerful the wizards are.

Yeah and in the Books Gandalf never just broke his staff. He kicked him from the order, that caused his Staff to snap and break. Nothing more, nothing less.

Dumdledore didn't plan his own death...

Yes he DID. Here's the PROOF.

"All the same, try. I am concerned less for myself than for accidental victims of whatever schemes might occur to the boy. Ultimately, of course, there is only one thing to be done if we are to save him from Lord Voldemort's wrath."

Snape raised his eyebrows and his tone was sardonic as he asked, "Are you intending to let him kill you?"

"Certainly not. You must kill me."

There was a long silence, broken only by an odd clicking noise. Fawkes the phoenix was gnawing a bit of cuttlebone.

"Would you like me to do it now?" asked Snape, his voice heavy with irony. "Or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?"

"Oh, not quite yet," said Dumbledore, smiling. "I daresay the moment will present itself in due course. Given what has happened tonight," he indicated his withered hand, "we can be sure that it will happen within a year."

"If you don't mind dying," said Snape roughly, "why not let Draco do it?"

"That boy's soul is not yet so damaged," said Dumbledore. "I would not have it ripped apart on my account."

"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"

"You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation," said Dumbledore. "I ask this one great favor of you, Severus, because death is coming for me as surely as the Chudley Cannons will finish bottom of this year's league. I confess I should prefer a quick, painless exit to the protracted and messy affair it will be if, for instance, Greyback is involved ¨C I hear Voldemort has recruited him? Or dear Bellatrix, who likes to play with her food before she eats it."

His tone was light, but his blue eyes pierced Snape as they had frequently pierced Harry, as though the soul they discussed was visible to him. At last Snape gave another curt nod.

Dumbledore seemed satisfied.

"Thank you, Severus..."

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 33

This is straight from Harry Potter's books. Your losing credibility, man. Why did Dumbledore plan his death? Incase you are blind, let me explain it to you.

Dumbledore's dying anyways. When Dumbledore wore Gaunt's ring (which was a Horcrux), the curse made a huge effect on his health, as Snape had said it.

2. Dumbledore HAS to die. Right before the beginning of Half-Blood Prince, Draco had just been branded with the Dark Mark, i.e. he's now a Death Eater. Voldemort therefore made him do a mission: to kill Dumbledore. Naturally, Draco's mom, Narcissa, was very scared for him, because Voldemort said that if Draco didn't get to kill Dumbledore (in which Voldemort ACTUALLY already knows Draco WILL fail in doing), Voldemort will kill the Malfoys.

Narcissa then made the Unbreakable Vow with Snape (during the beginning of Half-Blood Prince). With this vow, either Snape does his promise to Narcissa, or DIE.

Narcissa asked Snape to rather kill Dumbledore if Draco did not get to do it.

With no choice, Snape vows to this.

So now we find out in the chapter "The Prince's Tale" that Dumbledore is actually planning on sacrificing. He does not want Draco's soul to be "destroyed" -- since Draco has never murdered anyone before.

Dumbledore also tells Snape that Snape himself would find the "right time" to kill him.

As we can see, the scene on the tower (Half-Blood Prince) was the "right time", and so Snape used the Killing Curse on Dumbledore.

This whole plan therefore works.

Either Dumbledore dies naturally from that ring's curse, or just kill him a little earlier, since this is what Voldemort wants to happen anyways.

3. Remember the Elder Wand?

The wizard becomes the "true master of the wand" once he acquires the wand from another wizard by defeating him.

Dumbledore's wand = Elder Wand.

If Snape actually defeated Dumbledore, Snape would've been the new master of the Elder Wand.

But as we have seen, the murder was ARRANGED.

Snape didn't really defeated Dumbledore.

Dumbledore might have thought that when he's buried, WITH the Elder Wand, the wand's powers will die, too. A plan he thought was effective because Voldemort wouldn't be able to acquire it.

However, we find out that the plan went wrong.

In the second to the last chapter of Deathly Hallows, Harry explained that the actual new master of the wand is Draco Malfoy, since he has been the one to disarm Dumbledore.

Source:

Half-Blood Prince & Deathly Hallows book, Chapter 33 (which I quoted above, which you blatantly ignore)

Plot twist isn't so dumb now, is it?

.that would be the most dumb plot twist ever, and Gandalf at least came back from death(again nobody cares if Eru did it or Gandalf) that's not the point, point is simple

YOU don't care. Most people who like the facts DO care, actually. If Eru had not intervened, your precious Gandalf would be dead. Fact. Plus read above, the plot twist makes sense.

Gandalf died, Gandalf came back more powerful I might add and Gandalf in general is a Mair he's an immortal entity created by Eru

Gandalf the White is NOT immortal. The Gandalf that came back still had his mortal body and could still PERFECTLY be killed. Perfectly. Only the full, unrestricted version of Gandalf is immortal. We havn't seen that form in the books or movies and we don't know what that form can do.

Dumbledore can't hold a lick to Gandalf's power...

We want facts here, vaeternus.

You said Gandalf's staff, not Saruman's....Gandalf is more powerful then Dumble so again not happening

...."More powerful, most powerful" I don't care. I want battle-feats. Gandalf has very little battle feats that Dumbledore can not pull off. Dumbledore is FAR more durable. Dumbledore teleported at instant, catched pieces of fragments before they dropped to the floor, reacted to an instant threat of a fire worm that was going to kill him, dodged multiple killing curses by simply walking and talking with his wand up, defenseless. That's more feats then Gandalf.

and I doubt he can do it to Saruman the white either...proof of him doing suck to anyone on Gandalf or Saruman power scale? Nope..

You need to realize this: Saruman and Gandalf CAN be killed. Saruman and Gandalf have always been in their mortal form, NEVER their immortal forms. Plus, Reducto makes solid objects explode- Gandalf's staff is a solid object and would explode easily by the spell. It won't? Then show me the feats. If you can't show me facts then you need to leave this thread. Now.

Plus, Saruman was killed by a mortal man..With a knife. Dumbledore would have simply regenerated that wound with a word and then blasted the man off the Orthanic with a forceful spell.

Doubtful, again Dumbledore got owned and killed by a FAR lesser wizard in Snape(someone under him no less) in power then someone like Balrog(a middle earth demon) so humor me seriously..

OWNED? He planned his own death. I've proven that, you have speculation, I have facts. You ARE a fanboy, you have no facts, just leave the thread PLEASE. Snape would have not really killed Dumbledore, Dumbledore would have killed Snape if it was a real duel. I have proof that it was planned, there's proof in this very post, there's a sensible plot list designed by J.K rowling, so just accept it.

I'm positive a Water spell then a levitating spell can destroy a Balrog.

he'd turn Dumbledore to putty if he fought a Balrog(and who mentioned Draco? Draco didn't kill Dumbledore so why mention him?).

Why mention Draco? Leave. Leave now. You have nothing more to contribute.

BUUUT

If you must know: The reason D- Wait why am I saying this? Read my post above about WHY Dumbledore planned his own death, then you'll know why I mentioned Draco.

and is not nearly as good a fighter as Gandalf is

Dumbledore is the best duelist in Hogwarts. Are you trolling me right now?

Gandalf is versatile with sword, shield besides his power. Dumbledore is just the "friendly granny with a few tricks" in comparison...

A friendly granny with a few tricks can beat the 2nd strongest Dark Wizard? (Voldemort). A few tricks? Dumbledore is much more durable then Gandalf ever hoped to be. When Gandalf has reacted to a flaming Snake that went at instant, tanked a teleporter who teleported at instant, and dodged instant spells and a blitzer, then call me up.

Based on facts, Dumbledore beats Saruman.

@militaris: Thank you and bless you for commenting. I'm getting a headache because of these fanboys who ignore blatant facts, I mean I proved Dumbledore planned his own death yet the fanboy says he didn't.

I'm not going to reply to the same things I just replied to in a damn novel...

So again I'll just say, LOTR Wizards feats>>>>>HP, period. Gandalf and Saruman have far better feats and are both more powerful then Dumbledore, period....if all you have is a "theory" of Dumbledore letting himself get killed where it makes no sense to do so, then his name should be "Dummy-dore" instead.

I've contributed already and already explained why, believe what you want. Talk to me when Dumbledore comes back from death and/or defeats anything on Balrog's level...til then whatever you say will be ignored..

@vaeternus

Let's try to get into your head, shall we?

I'm not going to reply to the same things I just replied to in a damn novel...

What? You never gave me factual information. At all.

So again I'll just say, LOTR Wizards feats>>>>>HP, period.

Opinion.

I mean, you can turn beings into tea-cup in Harry Potter. Can't do that in LOTR.

Gandalf and Saruman have far better feats and are both more powerful then Dumbledore, period

Opinion, you don't have a leg to stand on in this statement.

.if all you have is a "theory" of Dumbledore letting himself get killed where it makes no sense to do so, then his name should be "Dummy-dore" instead.

A theory? I'l quote the exact part where Dumbledore asks Snape to kill him.

Snape raised his eyebrows and his tone was sardonic as he asked, "Are you intending to let him kill you?"

"Certainly not. You must kill me."

There was a long silence, broken only by an odd clicking noise. Fawkes the phoenix was gnawing a bit of cuttlebone.

"Would you like me to do it now?" asked Snape, his voice heavy with irony. "Or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?"

"Oh, not quite yet," said Dumbledore, smiling. "I daresay the moment will present itself in due course. Given what has happened tonight," he indicated his withered hand, "we can be sure that it will happen within a year."

"If you don't mind dying," said Snape roughly, "why not let Draco do it?"

"That boy's soul is not yet so damaged," said Dumbledore. "I would not have it ripped apart on my account."

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.

Really? Are you going to basically dispute what J.K rowling just said. Let me go over the plot line again.

Dumbledore's dying anyways. When Dumbledore wore Gaunt's ring (which was a Horcrux), the curse made a huge effect on his health, as Snape had said it.

2. Dumbledore HAS to die. Right before the beginning of Half-Blood Prince, Draco had just been branded with the Dark Mark, i.e. he's now a Death Eater. Voldemort therefore made him do a mission: to kill Dumbledore. Naturally, Draco's mom, Narcissa, was very scared for him, because Voldemort said that if Draco didn't get to kill Dumbledore (in which Voldemort ACTUALLY already knows Draco WILL fail in doing), Voldemort will kill the Malfoys.

Narcissa then made the Unbreakable Vow with Snape (during the beginning of Half-Blood Prince). With this vow, either Snape does his promise to Narcissa, or DIE.

Narcissa asked Snape to rather kill Dumbledore if Draco did not get to do it.

With no choice, Snape vows to this.

So now we find out in the chapter "The Prince's Tale" that Dumbledore is actually planning on sacrificing. He does not want Draco's soul to be "destroyed" -- since Draco has never murdered anyone before.

Dumbledore also tells Snape that Snape himself would find the "right time" to kill him.

As we can see, the scene on the tower (Half-Blood Prince) was the "right time", and so Snape used the Killing Curse on Dumbledore.

This whole plan therefore works.

Either Dumbledore dies naturally from that ring's curse, or just kill him a little earlier, since this is what Voldemort wants to happen anyways.

3. Remember the Elder Wand?

The wizard becomes the "true master of the wand" once he acquires the wand from another wizard by defeating him.

Dumbledore's wand = Elder Wand.

If Snape actually defeated Dumbledore, Snape would've been the new master of the Elder Wand.

But as we have seen, the murder was ARRANGED.

Snape didn't really defeated Dumbledore.

Dumbledore might have thought that when he's buried, WITH the Elder Wand, the wand's powers will die, too. A plan he thought was effective because Voldemort wouldn't be able to acquire it.

However, we find out that the plan went wrong.

In the second to the last chapter of Deathly Hallows, Harry explained that the actual new master of the wand is Draco Malfoy, since he has been the one to disarm Dumbledore.

Source:

Half-Blood Prince & Deathly Hallows book, Chapter 33 (which I quoted above, which you blatantly ignore)

Plot twist isn't so dumb now, is it?

So, tell me where I'm going wrong. Dumbledore was brilliant to do this, and heroic.

've contributed already and already explained why, believe what you want. Talk to me when Dumbledore comes back from death and/or defeats anything on Balrog's level...til then whatever you say will be ignored..

Gandalf did not come back under his own power. Eru did it. Gandalf didn't. Eru did it. Gandalf didn't.

Oh ignore the facts, I've given facts, you've given opinion.

And Dumbledore has spells that can destroy soul-sucking demons. That's above a Balrog's level.

Actually I did but you just chose to ignore it and I choose to address people via paragraphs like most people not each "line"

Dumbledore has never casted a spell defeating a demon on Balrog's level, if so post proof or irrelevant...

Gandalf came back again regardless, nobody cares how, who or why but he did and again his spirit is immortal...Dumbledore isn't. Dumble died for good, Dumdledore died for good, Dumbledore died for good....see I can state the obvious too.

No I've given you facts, NOT an opinion but you're just choosing to ignore them. Not my problem. GTW's power is his own, not Eru's before you say that..

Tolkien said "Gandalf is a Mair, an immortal spirit same as Sauron" in the books...

Either way, you're not changing my initial post.

Gandalf and/or Saruman>>>>Dumbledore...

@vaeternus

Actually I did but you just chose to ignore it and I choose to address people via paragraphs like most people not each "line"

I didn't ignore anything. You ignored my proof, one time said Dumbledore can't do things that he can do, and then said he can't go Invisible and didn't plan his death. I proved you wrong, now your doing this,

Dumbledore has never casted a spell defeating a demon on Balrog's level, if so post proof or irrelevant...

Expecto Patronous.

Plus a Balrog was killed by a lake before. All Dumbledore needs to do is drench him in water and levitate him off the Bridge.

Gandalf came back again regardless, nobody cares how, who or why but he did and again his spirit is immortal...Dumbledore isn't.

You don't car how. People who want feats do. It's not a feat that he came back, Eru brought him back, thus a feat for Eru not Gandalf.

His SPIRIT is immortal, but in his pshycial form he isn't unless he's in his full form (He has NEVER been in his full form, ever)

Dumble died for good, Dumdledore died for good, Dumbledore died for good....see I can state the obvious too.

Dumbledore also planned his own death. Plus, Saruman is the same as Gandalf. Both of their spirits are immortal, their both Istari. Saruman wandered forever when he died, Eru did not bring him back at ALL. If Istari can come back to live under their own power, why didn't Saruman come back? Eru didn't bring him back. Saruman died for good.

No I've given you facts, NOT an opinion but you're just choosing to ignore them. Not my problem. GTW's power is his own, not Eru's before you say that..

It is FACT Gandalf gets his power from Eru, and it is also FACT that Eru brought him back and without Eru Gandalf's spirit would have wandered like Saruman's.

Tolkien said "Gandalf is a Mair, an immortal spirit same as Sauron" in the books...

Their pshycial bodies can still be destroyed.

Either way, you're not changing my initial post.

Gandalf and/or Saruman>>>>Dumbledore...

Not everyone thinks or believes like you. This is your opinion, your entitled. It's just not fact.

Of course...everyone gets their power from eru, he made the maiar, then again he created everything in lotru...

I still dont see what that has to do with gandalf being his own power though throughout time being far older, wiser and more powerful then dumbledore...

Saruman is also powerful just not as powerful as gandalf, but dumdledore is more even.

Yes, but the difference is gandalf came back from his body being destroyed/death, unlike dumdledore, saruman thought didn't come back however...

Again i proved my point initally which you ignored, others pointed out the same thing. And it doesn't matter what you think gandalf is, he'sa maiar which is more or lessan agenlic entity race created by eru...so yes he is a spirit thus one reason why he's lived so long, he's more or less a immortal....

Dumbledore staging his own death or not is irrelevant here....

Patroius there's no proof he's on par with a balrog, and that won't kill the balrog gandalf fought, that fight they not only fell countless feet into the pits ofmiddle earth but through wind, water, fire.....yet that didnt kill balrog...gandalf did via a magic lightning strike and stabbed the balrog in the chest.

So yeah, lotr wizards....dumbledore. You may as well just sto responding for two reasons. one i know who you are, and secondly you're not changing my mind...

@vaeternus:
Alright.

Of course...everyone gets their power from eru, he made the maiar, then again he created everything in lotru...

No he didn't, he only helped form the World. Nothing more, nothing less. Saruman did that, too.

I still dont see what that has to do with gandalf being his own power though throughout time being far older, wiser and more powerful then dumbledore...

This doesn't matter. I want battle-feats. I do not see what's stopping Dumbledore from transfiguring the land Gandalf is on into Lava and then killing his pshycial body instantly.

Saruman is also powerful just not as powerful as gandalf, but dumdledore is more even.

He was just as powerful as Gandalf until he lost his color.

Yes, but the difference is gandalf came back from his body being destroyed/death, unlike dumdledore, saruman thought didn't come back however...

Gandalf did not come back, Eru brought him back. Eru didn't bring Saruman back, thus, he wandered. If the Istari could come back under their own power, Saruman would be alive.

Again i proved my point initally which you ignored, others pointed out the same thing. And it doesn't matter what you think gandalf is, he'sa maiar which is more or lessan agenlic entity race created by eru...so yes he is a spirit thus one reason why he's lived so long, he's more or less a immortal....

It's FACT his spirit is immortal. But it's not fact that his Pshycial body can't be destroyed. It very well can.

Dumbledore staging his own death or not is irrelevant here....

You keep saying Dumbledore got "owned" by some low-tier Witch. I proved you wrong, now your trying to move away from it.

Patroius there's no proof he's on par with a balrog, and that won't kill the balrog gandalf fought, that fight they not only fell countless feet into the pits ofmiddle earth but through wind, water, fire.....yet that didnt kill balrog...gandalf did via a magic lightning strike and stabbed the balrog in the chest.

Actually, in the books, there is no lightning. Gandalf did not fight him with Lightning at all. There was Lightning in the Mountain but no where does Gandalf say he used it.

A patronous, if it can fight a SOUL sucking Demon, it can kill a Balrog.

So yeah, lotr wizards....dumbledore. You may as well just sto responding for two reasons. one i know who you are, and secondly you're not changing my mind...

Why do I care if you know who I am? Everyone does at this point.

It's OPINION that LOTR wizard > Dumbledore. Give me facts.

No, it's a fact given the power of LOTR Wizards Maiar>>>>normal human wizard HP any day. Again, they're immortal so there's your facts...

The funny thing is I could have sworn it was you defending LOTR in another topic, but must have been a different king obviously because you're definitely no LOTR fan lol. Any self respecting LOTR and HP fan or fan of that general genre, will tell you LOTR>>>HP from plot to powers. I guess storyline is an opinion but powers? pfftt most powerful people in LOTR would murk anyone in HP....

Gandalf came back, again nobody cares HOW, WHO or WHY. He just DID. Period. Dumbledore however stayed dead...

Yes, he helped the WORLD. Dumbledore didn't help the entire world in HP just Harry and a few other trainies under him...he couldn't even defeat Snape so obviously he's not that powerful if a "master wizard" has trouble with an underlink. Gandalf nor Saruman would lose to Snape...

I gave you feats, you deny them. Not my problem...

Dumbledore isn't as powerful as Gandalf....

Saruman was only more powerful then GTG due to stealing his staff, otherwise that was a stalemate from what we know. GTW however murked Saruman.

Nobody but you is talking about physical bodies being destroyed...yes, of course so can dumbledore my point is that's proof as Tolkien even says in the books that Gandalf in general is an immortal, who cares about a body? Not to mention again, in LOTR FOTR when he fought the Balrog he took a hell of a lot worse beaten then Dumbledore did yet his body was intact, just exhausted and tired, then died and came back. Dumbledore meanwhile stands there on a balcony, gets shot via an underlink in the chest and falls FAR, FAR less distance then Gandalf did vs. the Balrog and dies and doesn't come back...thus why at the end of the day Gandalf>>>>>Dumbledore

Actually, Gandalf is a wizard and can use nature to his advantage(eagles, butterfly assistance hello?) So who cares if he made/controlled the lightning or not, either way he used it to take down a Balrog. Dumbledore never did anything nearly impressive.

There's no proof of your Patronous killing a balrog, you're ASSUMING...What if the Balrog has no soul? There are demons out there with NO soul you know in various series...so again you can't prove that.

Fine, it's YOUR opinion that you think Dumbledore is more powerful then Gandalf and Saruman.

It's fact that LOTR Wizards in general are way more powerful then HP wizards...

Both of you, correct me if I'm wrong but, isn't it SPECULATION of Vae to say that Dumbledore is not as powerful as gandalf, who doesn't even have many feats? @vaeternussaid Gandalf is more powerful, but there's no truth to that statement without facts.

Did Dumbledore plan his death or did he get "owned" by a low-teir black witch called Snape?

Wasn't Gandalf brought back by Eru Illvatar, meaning it's speculation to say he would be bought back again? Help me out here, I think I'm trying to cope with reality of this post up above ^

@tparks @theonetaichou

Wow.... 2 weeks and bumped? lol too funny.

BTW, it's not speculation if you're knowledgeble of both series. Dumbledore got taken down by a lesser powered wizard and fell far less then Gandalf did in the first movie and died, didn't come back.

Gandalf, killed a demon balrog, fell a million feet more then Dumbledore did and still lived through that, then died from exhaustion. Came back more powerful....

Gandalf the White is far more powerful then Dumbledore....it's not even close. Gandalf is more or less immortal via the Maiar....

@vaeternus:

BTW, it's not speculation if you're knowledgeble of both series. Dumbledore got taken down by a lesser powered wizard and fell far less then Gandalf did in the first movie and died, didn't come back.

Dumbledore planned his own death.

Snape raised his eyebrows and his tone was sardonic as he asked, "Are you intending to let him kill you?"

"Certainly not. You must kill me."

There was a long silence, broken only by an odd clicking noise. Fawkes the phoenix was gnawing a bit of cuttlebone.

"Would you like me to do it now?" asked Snape, his voice heavy with irony. "Or would you like a few moments to compose an epitaph?"

"Oh, not quite yet," said Dumbledore, smiling. "I daresay the moment will present itself in due course. Given what has happened tonight," he indicated his withered hand, "we can be sure that it will happen within a year."

"If you don't mind dying," said Snape roughly, "why not let Draco do it?"

"That boy's soul is not yet so damaged," said Dumbledore. "I would not have it ripped apart on my account."

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.

Now, let's closely look at the first two sentences.

Snape raised his eyebrows and his tone was sardonic as he asked, "Are you intending to let him kill you?"

"Certainly not. You must kill me."

Sounds like Dumbledore planned his own death, Rowling herself said he did.

Gandalf, killed a demon balrog, fell a million feet more then Dumbledore did and still lived through that, then died from exhaustion. Came back more powerful....

ERU brought him back. Let's compare Saruman and Gandalf, both Istari. If Istari can come back under their own power, then why did Saruman's spirit wander Middle Earth forever? Why didn't he come back? Eru didn't bring him back.

Gandalf the White is far more powerful then Dumbledore....it's not even close. Gandalf is more or less immortal via the Maiar....

His spirit is immortal, NOT his psychical body.

Speaking of which, I always found this issue needed adressing. "Eru brought him back" or "Eru wanted morgoth to go against him".

Like anything in the world ever happens without the writer's avatar wishing it. Technically, everything ever done in lengendarium is eru's doing, like everything ever done in marvel verse is toaa's. Nothing is ever going to happen when the writer doesn't wish it, yet thanos using HOTU to become nigh-toaa is considered his feat. But Morgoth rebelling is not considered his own.

Mainly, eru's approval is always, always going to be there, Gandalf has nowhere near the power required to rebel against an author level being. So if the writer made him come back, it's still a legit feat like anything else? Hulk smashes planes, or iron man lifts 100 tonnes. Either isn't possible without toaa wishing it. But still we consider it as their feats. So why exactly toaa's involvement in Gandalf make it any less of a feat? I mean, it's not like it's a second level being, someone on LT's standard, it's the highest authority of uni-deity fiction.. If it was morgoth, or valar, I'd have obviously said it's not his feat, but eru is not just any being, he's the supreme one, everything follows his will.

There's no proof of Dumbledore planning his own death in a on purpose aspect(as in him saying or telling anyone I'm planning my own death) and even if he did, that proves nothing but that he's weak and obviously wasn't strong enough to fight....Gandalf ACTUALLY died yet came back...where as nobody brought Dumbledore back...

Why would gandalf have more experience you asked? Simple, because it's fact...over 2,000 years old...how old is Dumbledore, not that nearly that old..

Read here, he's existed BEFORE the 1st Age...

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Gandalf

Again, Gandalf in general is immortal thus why I said he's a maiar which is more or less considered an angelic race created by Eru...plus, you said yourself that's my point Gandalf in essence/in spirt is immortal and thus can't be killed. As we've seen his physical body when he was Gandalf the Grey was killed but just came back more powerful mind you..

Very good point sir. This is one of my gripes with the battle forums, if it's outside of comics people tend to lowball or undermine character feats even if it's explained can be a video game, LOTR, whatever.

@princearagorn1: Aragorn, I'm not going to get in another argument with you, but I'm going to say this.

It's speculation that Eru will always be there to approve Gandalf to come back. It's speculation. Let's save it for another debate, you yourself said the only versions of Saruman or Gandalf that would win against Dumbledore or Voldemort, would be the unrestricted versions.

Eru brought Gandalf back. Fact.

Now, this is a battle of Dumbledore vs Saruman. I've proven Dumbledore wins. Vae is going off topic with speculation and nonsense, you're agging him on. I expected more from you.

My point is, If it was some other force, like Tulkas, or Manwe, we could say that it's not Gandalf's feat, but theirs. But in this case, it's the literal God of fiction, or writer himself.Why should involvement of his will really count, as it is always there for anything to happen in the world? This isn't speculation, it's a fact that nothing in fiction ever happens about writer's will. And saying that some feat happened because of writer's will makes it unusable is not really fair.

Just want to say, I'm not going off topic I'm not the one questioning the facts about LOTR or Gandalf. Obviously, Saruman vs. Dumbledore may be debatable... but normally I'd still lean Saruman, but it goes without saying that Saruman isn't as powerful as Gandalf, however Dumbledore when compared to LOTR top tier wizards isn't in the same league.

I don't see how @princearagorn1 is egging me on, I just happen to agree with him. The guy knows his LOTR info, what can I say?

@vaeternus:

There's no proof of Dumbledore planning his own death in a on purpose aspect(as in him saying or telling anyone I'm planning my own death) and even if he did, that proves nothing but that he's weak and obviously wasn't strong enough to fight

..This is just so freaking laughable. Are you having a LOTRga- know what? I'm not going to say it. It's not appropriete. I just can't take you seriously anymore.

There is proof. Let me break it down for you.

So Dumbledore and Snape are talking, Dumbledore says he won't let Malfoy to kill him. So, know what? He asks snape to do it.

Snape raised his eyebrows and his tone was sardonic as he asked, "Are you intending to let him kill you?"

"Certainly not. You must kill me."

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 33

Alright, a 4th grader can get that right.

Then, he asks if he would be such a dear and help a old man avoid pain and suffering..

"You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation," said Dumbledore. "I ask this one great favor of you, Severus, because death is coming for me as surely as the Chudley Cannons will finish bottom of this year's league. I confess I should prefer a quick, painless exit to the protracted and messy affair it will be if, for instance, Greyback is involved ¨C I hear Voldemort has recruited him? Or dear Bellatrix, who likes to play with her food before she eats it."

-Taken from: Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Chapter 33

Alright.

So far everything I said is checking out. Now, here's Snape AGREEING to it.

His tone was light, but his blue eyes pierced Snape as they had frequently pierced Harry, as though the soul they discussed was visible to him. At last Snape gave another curt nod.

What does a nod mean? Since you speak at 3rd grader level, lets open up the dictionairy, shall we?

nodding present participle of nod (Verb)

Verb

1. Lower and raise one's head slightly and briefly, esp. in greeting, assent, or understanding, or to give someone a signal.

-Taken from: DICTIONAIRY.COM <.<

Snape agreed to kill Dumbledore. You can not break the COLD.HARD.FACTS.

Why would gandalf have more experience you asked? Simple, because it's fact...over 2,000 years old...how old is Dumbledore, not that nearly that old..

Don't care about experience, care about feats.

Read here, he's existed BEFORE the 1st Age...

Now, that's an achievement. A feat. Does it help him in battle? No. Does it make speculation grow? Yes.

Again, Gandalf in general is immortal thus why I said he's a maiar which is more or less considered an angelic race created by Eru...plus, you said yourself that's my point Gandalf in essence/in spirt is immortal and thus can't be killed. As we've seen his physical body when he was Gandalf the Grey was killed but just came back more powerful mind you..

It's a feat for Eru that Gandalf came back. More powerrful isn't a feat.

Very good point sir. This is one of my gripes with the battle forums, if it's outside of comics people tend to lowball or undermine character feats even if it's explained can be a video game, LOTR, whatever.

Wow.. Are you serious? *Sigh*