Saruman The White vs. Durin's Bane

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xXBANEOFDURINXx

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#1  Edited By xXBANEOFDURINXx
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The White Wizard vs. The Balrog of Morgoth

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Location: Khazad-Dûm

Rules/Settings/Conditions

  • Saruman replaces Gandalf in the same scenario he and the Fellowship were in when they were under the mines of Moria
  • Saruman has the limited knowledge that he and Gandalf had on the Balrog before the unconventional encounter
  • Standard gear and equipment
  • Fight to the death
  • No outside interference- Fellowship may not interfere to help Saruman and the Orcs may not interfere to get in the Balrogs way . 1v1 like it happened
  • Fight begins a few meters away before reaching the Bridge

  • Round 1- Film adaptations/versions
  • Round 2- Novel adaptations/versions

Who wins this?

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ProteusXManRxis

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Balrog takes it both rounds. Saruman is not in Gandalfs league

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im_late

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#4  Edited By im_late

On topic. Hard to tell. Saruman the White should be more powerful that Gandalf the Grey, but in books power is a fickle thing. For what it's worth, Curumo did imprison Olorin and the latter believed he could dance with some Nazguls if needed.

Movie Saruman wins.

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Kidolio

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Saruman doesn’t have Gandalf’s feats he loses.

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im_late

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#6  Edited By im_late

@kidolio: There is literally a round using movie Saruman who bested Gandalf and could summon a storm over large part of a mountain range. Not to mention his feats it Hobbit.

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Kidolio

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@im_late: Oh I didn’t read the entire op but I was referring to book Saruman.

The storm conjuring isn’t practical in battle it had a way to long cast time. The fight with gandalf ended when Saruman got Gandalf staff then levitated him up but he’s never shown to be able to move something as big as the balrog nor have his shield nor him shown the durability that Gandalf has. I still see the balrog winning against Saruman.

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im_late

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@kidolio: Storm conjuring is still a very good display of power and Saruman showed superiority to Gandalf. Not to mention his feats again Nazguls.

We've seen less of Saruman but based on what we have seen, he should be able to replicate Gandalf the Grey showing just fine.

Then again, Gandalf seemed to barely pull it off and died in the process, so who knows. I'd say it's a very even match.

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Six-Deuce

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Well, while Saruman of many colors is slightly more powerful of a wizard than Gandalf the Grey, Gandalf had a couple advantages Saruman does not. Glamdring for one, and he was also more committed to the fight to the point he would sacrifice himself to kill the balrog. I would say Durin's bane wins, I dont see Saruman's style and relevant feats working well for him here. I dont see his fireballs or TK leaving a mark. Give him prep and resources and he's got this.

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MetalJimmor

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Saruman may be the superior of Gandalf the Grey but he doesn't have Gandalf's combat aptitude or skill in magic of light and fire. Not all Maiar are equal and not all their skills fit nicely on a tiering list. Gandalf says in Fellowship that Saruman has little woodlore, as an example. Meaning he doesn't know much about the forests and the magics within. Not like Radagast who, while looked down on by Saruman, was extremely skilled in woodlore and beastlore.

Saruman was wise and knowledgeable and extremely gifted in crafts and metals. He had studied the ringlore of Sauron deeply and had a better understanding of it than anyone else on Middle Earth short of Sauron and perhaps Celebrimbor themselves. He was also an especially gifted orator who's voice had the supernatural power to convince others of his correctness. His voice was his most lethal weapon by far. One so great even those who already knew of his treachery found it difficult to find fault in his logic.

He'd be a fantastic Battle Forum debater, in other words.

But he wasn't a fighter. If Saruman actually did do battle with Durin's Bane I just can't imagine him surviving. It isn't about a lack of power. It is a lack of grit, strength of will, and courage. A lack of martial experience.

That said, he could likely have persuaded Durin's Bane to not attack him. From there he could've swayed the ancient creature to his side in the War of the Ring and his eventual betrayal of Sauron.

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Kidolio

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@im_late: What does that add to this fight does that mean he has a higher mana tank? I saw feats against the Nazgul his shield isn’t as good as Gandalfs nor were his attacks.

Why should he? He didn’t show he was physically superior to Gandalf in any physical way which was how Gandalf beat the Balrog except for when he used his shield to block a sword and a magic sword to stab the Balrog.

Why should Saruman be able to replicate what Gandalf did? The fight took Gandalf days of non stop fighting after falling to a lake at very high heights that should kill most people.

The Saruman fight and Balrog fights are different even when Gandalf lost his staff he physically fought the Balrog but Saruman stopped Gandalf from physically fighting him by levitating him. If Gandalf was allowed to physically fight Saruman, by feats Gandalf would win.

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deactivated-606ac95adde5e

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Balrog

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FullMetalEmprah

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#13  Edited By FullMetalEmprah

Probably the Balrog, as said above Gandalf was just a better fighter overall and his magic was well-suited to fight Durin's Bane. Saruman is powerful as well(especially the film version) but in the end he's kind of like Sauron in that he's a better manipulator than a fighter.

That's not to say Durin's Bane would stomp him though. I feel like an argument could possibly be made for at least the film version but there's not a lot to go on aside from him besting Gandalf in a magic duel.

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ITACHI_IS_GAWD

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Balrog or stalemate

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EternalDarkFury

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Durins Bane of course.

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Hulk_Hater_Man

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Balrog stomps

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Eri_Joni

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Isn't Saruman supposed to be the strongest of the 5 wizards?

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PinkStalker

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#18  Edited By PinkStalker

Hm both are Maiar, the only difference is the age of them. The Balrog is maybe far older than Saruman and he could have more battle experience through the war with the Valar.

I think it could be a close battle, but the Balrog wins via high dif.

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Hulk_Hater_Man

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Hm both are Maia, the only difference is the age of them. The Balrog is maybe far older than Saruman and he could have more battle experience through the war with the Valar.

I think it could be a close battle, but the Balrog wins via high dif.

True but I think they both have been around since Melkors time right?

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G_Race

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@proteusxmanrxis: What low balling for Sauruman guys.. He is the head of the order, and respected or feared by just about everyone in the Mythos. I will concede that he will not have the same level of commitment to win (protecting those he loves), but that is subjective. If we are being fair here and treating this as a battle without emotion Sauruman takes this. Gandalf is weary of Sauruman and refers to him as his superior (before white), and Sauruman punked him pretty well with ease.

In short, If Gandy can do it Sauruman does it, only easier.

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PinkStalker

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#21  Edited By PinkStalker

@hulk_hater_man said:
@pinkstalker said:

Hm both are Maia, the only difference is the age of them. The Balrog is maybe far older than Saruman and he could have more battle experience through the war with the Valar.

I think it could be a close battle, but the Balrog wins via high dif.

True but I think they both have been around since Melkors time right?

Yeah,but theres no mention in the books that the istari fought in the war against Morgoth. They first arrived in the third age,maybe they lived a peacefull live in valinor before they were send to Middle Earth.

The books are not very accurade with their history. But we know surely that the Balrog fight in the last war against the troops of the valar and escaped to Moria.

@g_race said:

@proteusxmanrxis: What low balling for Sauruman guys..

I see no lowballing here. We have two equal beeings (both Maiar created by Iluvatar),the only difference is their battle experience. And for this,the books are to inaccurate.

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Kidolio

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@g_race: The problem here is that Saruman doesn’t have any of Gandalf’s feats and yeah Saruman is above Gandalf but in what way? Was he Magically stronger was he physically stronger was he all around stronger or was he just wiser? Unless you can answer that without a doubt in which way he’s better then Gandalf there isn’t much of a debate except that Movie versions Saruman is magically better.

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tsunamiwave

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Saruman wins. Gandalf and the Balrog fought an epic battle for days resulting in their mutual deaths. Yet Saruman was able to defeat Gandalf in a fight in about a minute. He’s just on another level than Gandalf the Grey.

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Kidolio

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tsunamiwave

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@kidolio: thanks but that didn’t change my opinion.

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Tzimiscelord

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@kidolio said:

Saruman doesn’t have Gandalf’s feats he loses.

Saruman actually beats Gandalf in a 1 v 1 both in the books and in the movies.

Why shouldn't he be able to do at least as well as Gandalf (probably better) against the balrog?

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im_late

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#27  Edited By im_late

@kidolio: What mana pool? Storm conjuring is important because it showcases just how powerful spells he can conjure, which gives us an idea about how powerful he is. Furthermore, he defeated Gandalf in such duel, showcasing his superiority over him at that time.

His feat against Nazguls is great because it showcased his skill and sharp reflexes. He already demonstrated that his magic is more potent that that of Gandalf the Grey.

Funny thing about fire control - in deleted scene Saruman used more potent fireball than Gandalf the Grey ever pulled off in the movies.

He should replicate it, at least the movie version, because he is superior all around. I already stated such scenario is extremely exhausting and he might die afterwards like Olorin -- a fact people seem to forget here.

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G_Race

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Jormungandr-Jay

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Balrog

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deactivated-5f36de50edb16

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Saruman got this. His magic was superior than that of Gandalfs and im pretty sure he wouldnt be afraid to confront it into combat.

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xMangog__Beastx

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Bane

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BubblegumMan

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Saruman hard difficulty

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Kidolio

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@tzimiscelord: They never fought in the books. Read my previous posts.

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Kidolio

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#34  Edited By Kidolio

@im_late: The spell took a long time to cast was my point and so what it shows he’s powerful but okay that doesn’t mean much unless you can tell me why that’s relevant for combat because all we know is that Saruman can make a big attack that takes a long time. I already explained why the duel doesn’t play much into this.

And? The fight doesn’t prove his magic would be powerful enough to hurt the balrog nor would it prove his shield would hold like Gandalf’s. Already talked about the fight.

Okay I never mentioned fire magic but sure, it was a deleted scene witch would make it non canon to the movies and shooting fire at a fire demon is super smart, also what’s the best feat of that fireball?

Why would he be superior in every way has he shown it? Can you say with absolute certainty that Saruman would survive the fall that Gandalf did and could fight the Balrog for days with no rest? Can you show me a feat of Saruman being physically superior to Gandalf?

Edit: Also Gandalf is wiser so yeah Saruman isn’t better then Gandalf in every way.

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#35  Edited By im_late

@kidolio: Because it still gives us idea about how powerful Saruman is. If you want to prove that having to channel the spell somehow requires significantly less power, prove it. Right now you are making up in-universe rules to support your argument.

I already stated that the Nazguls scene showcases his skill and reflexes in combat. Saruman already proved he is Gandalf the Grey superior power-wise by beating him in combat and casting spells at a scale the latter can only dream of.

Deleted scenes from director cut are still at times used on Battle Forums. I probably misread one of your sentences though - I sometimes do that on mobile.

I meant power-wise, but that's a fair argument. Gandalf took more punishment and physical strain that we've seen Saruman take. Then again, Saruman does not have to survive the fall and I don't believe Gandalf somehow dwarfs the other Istari physically. It was never stated Olorin is some special breed when it comes to physical stats. Fair to assume he has better stamina and strength due to his travels. By some huge margin? I wouldn't say so. What Saruman might lack physically he more than makes up in power. And it's not like he fights like a geezer. He outperformed multiply ringwraiths in close combat, reacting to point blank attacks and simultaneous attacks from different angles. The fact that they moved in a teleport-like fashion only makes the feat more impressive.

If we are to get nitpicky -- it was never stated in the movies. I guess you could brand him as such anyways, since he seemed wiser or at the very least more humble.

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Kidolio

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@im_late: I mentioned Mana as a joke because your point doesn’t really mean much on post number 8 also ok he’s powerful does that mean he has feats to win no he doesn’t because that’s the only big spell he has and it takes forever to cast.

I already explained why that doesn’t matter that he beat Gandalf you should reply to those posts I already made.

Okay prove to me that they’re canon to the story if they’re not actually part of the movie and was deleted so they never happend also I just checked out that feat the fireball was used once and has no feats of destruction or hotness mostly because Gandalf stopped it with no excerpt but that still means it has no feats as the fireball was small and is being used against a fire demon.

I’m not saying Gandalf was special I’m saying Saruman doesn’t have any physical feats to match with Gandalf and the reason he was doing so well against the ring wraiths was because he had auto shields that aren’t strong enough to stop the blade of the Balrog. You keep mentioning power for some reason while leaving it pretty vague as to what you mean. Okay he’s powerful but what’s he gonna do cast the one spell we saw him do that was strong and takes forever.

Yeah I only said that to prove Saruman isn’t better then Gandalf in every way.

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im_late

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@kidolio: I'll repeat: conjuring an enormous storm is a great showing of power. Casting something of this scale and power allows us to assume what Saruman is capable of. Basic logic.

As I said, I'm on mobile. I either missed it or ignored it. Anyways, Saruman beat Gandalf fair and square. I don't see my opinion changing here.

Deleted scenes are tricky. We do have Director's Cut which technically is a version of the movie. Deleted scenes are sometimes used on Battle forum, especially when they are a part of special edition (BvS Ultimate Edition/Director's Cut etc.) Then again, some of them aren't, so I see your point.

As I said, power-wise. Sure, there are many things Olorin might be better at.

Proof that Saruman's shields are automatic? Anyway, this fight is a prime example of how nimble and skilled Saruman is in combat. He never survived fall from a height or fought anybody for such a long, but once again, I don't think Gandalf is some special breed physically and Saruman is superior power-wise so he can make up for any physical gap.

Based on Saruman's other showings, he can shield himself from Balrog's attacks.

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Kidolio

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#38  Edited By Kidolio

@im_late: Okay he’s powerful again answer me on why that would help this fight because I can say that Saruman’s powerful but he would never defeat Odin.

Yeah he beat him I wasn’t refuting that in anyway what I’m saying is that fight doesn’t prove that Saruman could beat The Balrog. ABC logic doesn’t work for this one.

It doesn’t matter if that deleted was canon or not but the fireball has no feats to say it would hurt the balrog

They’re automatic because when he goes to hit another Nazgul one hits him from behind and the shield blocks him without him looking in the other Nazgul’s direction.

Again Saruman has no physical feats to match so you can’t just say that Saruman can accomplish what Gandalf did. What’s spell is Saruman gonna use against the Balrog that would allow him to win? His telekinesis was never shown to carry or move anything as big as the Balrog, his fireball doesn’t have feats either, his shields also doesn’t have any feats that say they could withstand the might of the Balrog, and his biggest spell takes forever to cast.

Show me his shields most powerful feat.

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im_late

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#39  Edited By im_late

@kidolio:

Saruman is more powerful than Gandalf the Grey because he beat him and displayed more potent magic. Therefore he should be have an easier time replicating what Gandalf did, that is to say hurting and fighting Balrog.

One could say Gandalf had skill and physicals on his side. That's why I said Saruman fighting Nazguls is a great skill feat and that while Gandalf might be superior stamina-wise, the gap was never stated nor implied to be of gargantuan size. Furthermore, Saruman has superior magical power (meaning he arguably has superior damage output, shields etc.) to compensate for any physical inferiority.

At that point I'm just repeating myself for the third or fourth time.

I never used ABC logic.

Fireball wasn't brought up in context of hurting Balrog. Somebody else mentioned Gandalf's fire control and I accidentally included it in our debate since I'm on mobile.

So you can't prove they activate automatically without Saruman's control.

He displayed superior power to Gandalf who managed to hurt Balrog. Him being able to cast spells like storm conjuring as well as overpowering Gandalf allows us to assume his other spells are similarly poeerful or are the very least more powerful than Gandalf's. We don't need feats for every single spells. That'd be silly. If a character lifts 1 ton, we can assume he can perform feats of strength on similar level. We don't need separate feats for his leg muscles and ABS.

And I stated, at the very beginning, that it killed Gandalf and might very well kill Saruman.

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Kidolio

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@im_late: No it doesn’t he beat Gandalf with Telekinesis he has shown nothing to say he could perform Gandalf’s shield.

It was never stated but it was shown Gandalf could survive the fall into the water from a height that should kill most people and his stamina was shown as better. It was never stated Saruman was magical better now that I think about it and neither has he shown that he could make a better shield.

Same, Saruman beating Gandalf doesn’t prove Saruman can beat the Balrog, nothing Saruman did against Gandalf would’ve worked against the Balrog.

It’s ABC logic because you’re saying Saruman > Gandalf >\= Balrog.

It’s literally shown in the fight just check it on YouTube want me to give you the time.

Gandalf never fought the Balrog with spells he straight up just fought the balrog with his sword and only used magic to attack the Balrog when he enchanted his sword with lightning, something Saruman hasn’t been able to do. Overpower Gandalf? He didn’t overpower him they were pretty equal until Saruman took his staff because at that point Gandalf couldn’t cast magic.

What kill Gandalf? the fall where Durins Bane repeatedly smashed Gandalf into the wall or when they both smashed into the water because both would kill Saruman. Yeah Saruman doesn’t have durability feats in the same tier as Gandalf he’s gonna die from the fall alone.

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#41  Edited By im_late

@kidolio: Gandalf has his own telekinesis. Saruman showed he is simply more powerful by winning this fight.

Saruman the White was blatantly portrayed and showed as more powerful magic-wise. By beating Gandalf the Grey and by performing feats of power the latter never did. If you think Saruman cannot conjure a shield as, or more, powerful as Gandalf the Grey, then I'm not sure if this conver is worth continuing.

No, I never used ABC logic unless you take my statements out of context.

Did you read the script saying these shields are automatic? Did you ask the director? Did you enter the movie and asked Saruman if his body automatically produces a barrier when hit from behind? No. Exactly. It's impossible to prove these barriers are automatic without it being an opinion.

Majority of this fight happened off-panel. We've seen Gandalf affect Balrog with magic before; Saruman should be able to harm him with his spells just fine.

The exhaustion after the fight and injuries. Anyway, as stated repeatedly, Saruman doesn't have to survive the fall. I already addressed what I think about gap in physicals before. Not gonna write it over and over again -- it's fair to assume Gandalf has better physicals sice he seems to be more often out there, but he took mortal flesh just like other Istari. Nothing ever suggested he is some juggernaut among wizards. Your strict, "no feats, no proof" approach is fair, but it's just another approach to debating. There are different kinds of reasoning.

Anyways, it's getting messy and dully repetitive at that point. I'll be able to access my PC in three days. Might answer if I find something interesting to address. Otherwise, we can CaV it, because frankly it's getting boring.

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Kidolio

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@im_late: Okay I didn’t mention telekinesis in the first one but sure not really sure why that’s relevant as Gandalf didn’t use telekinesis in his fight against the Balrog when he lost his staff.

Okay no unless he shown it he doesn’t have more powerful shields because I’m thinking it’s more along the lines of people are better at different things but your thinking along the lines of whoever is magically stronger can cast the more powerful spell. It depends who we assume is right but the problem is it’s assumption on both are parts BUT Gandalf has shown his shields are better so it’s more backing me then you.

What are you talking about you pretty much said that since Saruman can beat Gandalf he can beat the Balrog.

I just looked back on the fight an yeah it seems Saruman looked every time a shield was put up.

Gandalf never used his magic against the Balrog except to block and to enchant his sword. Neither of these were offensive magic. Gandalf also lost his staff and had to fight the Balrog with no telekinetic pushes or fireballs(the only things that Saruman can use as an offensive attack). Would love to see the feats of those two attacks hurting something like the Balrog.

I go by feats with some assumptions but it’s clear by feats that Gandalf is physically better. I would question it more if you could find a quote saying that Saruman was better or equal to Gandalf in a physical way. Yeah there are different kinds of reasoning like saying the Presence can do everything that Lucifer and Michael can do even though he lacks feats but there’s nothing here to suggest Saruman was better physically.

Not sure how to CAV but okay.

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im_late

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#43  Edited By im_late

@kidolio: We pretty much post three times (opener/counter/closing statement) and then people vote. We could use movie version of the characters since we argued about them. Would be pretty cool actually. This conversation got kinda messy and hard to track.

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Kidolio

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@im_late: Sure as long as it’s under these conditions.

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anakon4

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Saruman wins both scenarios 6-7/10. He is league above Gandalf the Grey.

Most people don't realize that Saruman was the head of the Wizarding Order in ME. Even if Gandalf had more practical experience then the way Tolkien writes his characters it's clear that Saruman was superior to Gandalf before his reincarnation.

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@g_race: Sure if I figure out how to tag people and if we do make a cav, however it’s made.

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im_late

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@kidolio: I'll make the thread tomorrow.

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nn5

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In movies it's close. Saruman is obviously more powerful than Gandalf but lack of sword may be a problem. Don't know about book versions.

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Kidolio

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