Saiyan Saga Piccolo vs. SPBM Naruto

Piccolo

Naruto should be able to dodge all Piccolo's attacks since he's faster especially in reactions.

Large County Level vs Moon+ Level with Regen

Gee.. I wonder who wins

They should be about even in reactions because of Naruto's precog, but Piccolo generally fights continuously at a higher level than Naruto does. However, Naruto has hax, and Piccolo's max power amps him quite a bit.

True, Piccolo's regen will negate the TSO's effectiveness unless he's hit in the head or heart. However, there are six of them, and Naruto has the Rasenshurikan.

@ssjbatdan:

That''s his only win con

Piccolo can wipe out TSB with casual ki blast

And once they are gone, they are gone

He doesn't grow them back

Naruto erases him with TSB fodder regen like regrowing an arm etc won't save him being erased from existence.

Can they be controlled, or are they only shot in a straight line?

Why should they be equal in reactions? Saiyan Saga's best speed feat is Raditz dodging his special beam that scales to moon busting attack that's less than a half of speed of light.

His regen has always been a little questionable, but it seems at long as he's not knocked unconscious or severely weakened he can even regen holes in his body. It is strenuous and takes a lot of ki.

@hydratedfubuki6:

Why should they be equal in reactions? Saiyan Saga's best speed feat is Raditz dodging his special beam that scales to moon busting attack that's less than a half of speed of light.

Well, no.

Because Raditz is not the same distance as moon was.

He was right in front of him

The ki blast reaching moon is Rel

For Raditz to dodge that close requires FTL reaction

Piccolo's blast that vaporized the moon is 1/4 LS in the anime, but it's practically instant in the manga. On top of that, the shockwaves could be felt on Earth. The SBC is about 4x his weighted power level of 322 (what he destroyed the moon with). Its translated name is "The Light of Death." This Piccolo is stronger than that SBC even before powering up!

On Topic

Can go either way

Either Piccolo vapes him with ki blast or Naruto lands TSB on his head

Gets blitzed by Raditz and beyond

The Ki blast is relativistic and Madara's light fang is light speed.

In your logic, Naruto is FTL++ because he dodged it within two meters.

There's that too, so it's likely that the SBC is even faster, but it's safe to just scale it to lightspeed.

It takes light about 1.3 seconds to get from Earth to the moon. Piccolo's feat was roughly 4 seconds in the anime. I think the SBC was faster than the blast used to vaporize the moon, but either way, it is at least lightspeed.

@hydratedfubuki6:

For his reaction speed, sure.

But also Consistent Combat Speed = /= Reaction Speed for dodging 1 attack

Dragon Ball characters consistently knock away each others ki blast from each other, so we know their combat speed actually scales to their reaction seed

Can he regenerate from existence erasure? because if not he dies since TSB erases Ninjutsu people matter even space-time itself

https://imgur.com/gallery/0yhYdEj

And he can negate regen since Kabuto said it would take Muu time to regenerated from Naruto attack and Edo regen is seconds IIRC

https://imgur.com/a/Lhnxtz9

So turns out Naruto has far better in reaction speed. He could react (if not easily) to Ki blasts.

No, Naruto would be FTL with precog. You're scaling it up even though it started right in front of him. Piccolo's blast took 4 seconds to get to the moon when light would normally take 1.3. But again, it's instant in the manga. One panel to another, so probably lightspeed. But we'll lowball and say the SBC was LS, and Raditz sidestepped that. Since that distance is negligible, Raditz is FTL.

@hydratedfubuki6:

So turns out Naruto has far better in reaction speed. He could react (if not easily) to Ki blasts.

Yeah, for dodging ki blast of Piccolo I agree.

Do I think he can keep up with them hand 2 hand combat, though?

Nope.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that too

Sasuke is = to Naruto in speed / Hand2Hand

Stronger version of Sasuke is = Kinshiki in speed / Hand2Hand

Yet, Kinshiki is consistently tagged by fodder Kage?

Not to mention DBZ characters are consistently depicted in hand to hand combat as afterimages while Naruto characters aren't.

@dkl-atoms: Doesn't it just erase a hole, though? There's no reason he can't make new cells...if his arm gets cut off, that's what he does.

I'm not sure about your second statement. I'd need more context.

That's what I was saying in my first response. Piccolo is constantly fighting far faster than Naruto is shown fighting. Naruto is just capable of dodging LS attacks.

We can just scale off the SBC's difference in power level and how it was clearly supposed to be a fast attack. Piccolo was stunned that Raditz dodged it. That combined with the distance, and it should easily be light speed.

We can't assume in the manga since it doesn't show how fast it is, the only way we could quantify it is from the animation or a statement.

@hydratedfubuki6: @wushu59: They actually fight completely invisible, suggesting their H2H is at lightspeed. This has been consistent since Dragon Ball.

It's good thing no one in Naruto has existence erasure.

OT: Piccolo one shots tbh.

@ssjbatdan: They're FTE to Gohan, no indication of light speed at all in that scene.

Generally, when it is one panel and an action is going on in a battle manga you assume it takes 1 second unless stated otherwise. The manga came first and the moon was instantly destroyed. We just go by the anime because of naysayers. Really, DBZ characters and their blasts are far faster than most people realize.

Except it is impossible for a human-sized object to completely disappear from sight while continually being in front of you. They move so fast they appear stationary to one another while outside viewers who aren't ki sensitive see nothing. If they weren't moving at lightspeed, you'd see a blur because light would be reflecting off of them. However, within this invisibility, they create afterimages and blurs to one another, and as said, appear stationary at times. Goku and Krillin literally play rock, paper, scissors at one point.

Piccolo's ki projection > Light Fang by actual feats.

I say this all the time

But people don't listen

I brought u this exact point before and even made a gif

Me? I've always known this, lol. I've been a DBZ fan for 20 years.

Wasn't me you said it to.

This was meant to be the Piccolo that fought with Nappa, FYI.

@ssjbatdan

Doesn't it just erase a hole, though? There's no reason he can't make new cells...if his arm gets cut off, that's what he does.

No, you can shape TSB they are not always a ball and he won't be able to make new cells since Existence Erasure leaves nothing behind it's not reducing someone to his constituent parts.

I'm not sure about your second statement. I'd need more context.

Kabuto said that it would take time for Muu to regenerate from Naruto attack because of the new power he acquired so Naruto had enough power to slow down/negate an Edo regen so it would be able to counter Piccolo regen since Edo regen>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Piccolo regen.

In this case, Piccolo all the way.

That doesn't make sense, though. As long as he has a piece of his arm, he can regenerate. He's not an Edo. That regeneration is like reforming, I think.

Edo regen is superior in most ways, but it is based on a continuous spell.

But how was Naruto's power doing it? I guess it'd probably work on Piccolo, but that's from his normal attacks, ain't it, not the TSO?

@ssjbatdan:

Can they be controlled, or are they only shot in a straight line?

They can be controlled but they aren't limitless

Once they are gone, they are gone forever

The fact that you thought it was BoZ Piccolo and he still stood a chance...ouch. If you think Piccolo is "only" FTL, then I can see Naruto having a chance, but the reality is far, far different when it comes to H2H.

@ssjbatdan:

I have BoZ Piccolo at Relativistic scaling from OG Dragon Ball

Raditz is the first person I consider legit FTL

Since Goku vs Krillin they are FTL. Simply can't ignore them literally playing r,p,s while stationary and no one can see them. Even if you put them at relativistic there, Goku gets much, much stronger over and over. If you do what a lot of people do and say, "This guy blitzed that guy who blitzed that guy...." and each blitz is 1.5-2x faster, the Goku that fought Vegeta would already be 100s of times FTL, I have no doubt. If you play real gentle you can just say DB is LS and Raditz is FTL.

@ssjbatdan:

That's just them moving at FTE

If we go by the logic, a bunch of manga/anime would FTL really early, like Yu Yu Haksuho Season 1 /Bleach Soul Society Arc/ One Piece Ennies Lobby Arc etc

And would also make early Sayian Saga MFTL for being well above 100 faster times then Goku vs Krillin

That's just bogus

If those series fight completely invisible, why not? But I don't think they do. I think they blur. In the DB manga it establishes over and over that they are completely invisible. It's literally impossible for something that big not to be at least LS when they are moving around in a confined area and you see nothing. I don't remember any of those series doing that. A character may disappear then reappear somewhere, but they don't go out of their way to show that they are literally fighting invisible continuously. It's far different for something to move by your face really quickly and out of your vision, and another thing to be right in front of you and invisible to you because of sheer speed. Only light can do that.

Well, we have Namek Goku faster than radio waves that can travel lightyears in an instant, so it isn't too far-fetched....

Piccolo, they have comparable speed but green man carries much more fire power. One blast and it's over.

Yu Yu Hakusho - Hiei vanishes multiple times and leaves behind after images season 1 and just before Dark Tournament sleepy Yusuke and Hiei are so fast when “fighting” that they are completely invisible to the demons watching them.

Bleach - Soul Society Arc, Ichigo leaves multiple after images behind as he sprints around Byakuya

One Piece - Luffy's first time transforming Gear 2 completely vanishes and blitzes Blueno.

Doesn't mean they are FTL.

Just means they are moving FTE to who is watching them.

@wushu59: None of those are the same at all, except maybe the Yu Yu Hakusho example.

@wushu59: Dark Tournament sleepy Yusuke and Hiei are so fast when “fighting” that they are complete invisible to the demons watching them.

Could just be a gag and an outlier. Does something like this happen again? Do you have the scans, too?

@ssjbatdan:

Going off visuals of “disappearing” isn't exactly best way to judge speed

Those are just few examples out of many of those series.

It's is better to scale off concrete speed feats

But none of them besides the "sleepy" one was what I'm talking about. Being completely invisible in a confined area where spectators can see the whole area, via sheer speed is a concrete speed feat. It is literally impossible to do if not lightspeed. I've looked it up for years. It never changed.

After images are not the same. Surprising someone with your speed is not the same. This is a totally different level. Goku and Krillin and many other prologued fights after them take place completely invisible to the spectators. It's brought up again in later tournaments, by Gohan, by Mr. Satan, and the ouncer during the Cell Games...it's super consistent. These characters are fighting so fast light doesn't even reflect off them during the majority of the fight (sometimes they break out of lightspeed if hit down or to charge an attack...stuff like that).

It's a show that takes it self seriously.

Definitely not Gag

Early Examples of After Images

Another early example of moving FTE

And the one I was talking about

They are literally blurs to demons watching them

Doe not mean FTL.

@wushu59: Yes, BLURS.

None of those are the same!

They are literally invisible in DB!

@ssjbatdan:

Invisible to regular human people.

Characters like Master Roshi, Tien and whatnot can still see them.

The characters in scan are invisible to regular people too.

Demons can kind of see them just like Martial Artist in Dragon Ball can see Goku and Krillin

It's just moving FTE to certain people

Doesn't mean FTL lol