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#501 Edited by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan: No. They only cracked because Madara himself was pressed against them. They completely blocked EE's shockwaves earlier. Saitama cannot breach them.

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#502 Edited by Zuriel-el (3023 posts) - - Show Bio

@God_Vulcan:

guguo dam cant destroy ppl with six paths chakra. thats why they cracked. anything without senjutsu chakra is disintegrated.

on topic: saitama cant fight 1000 narutos he dies. eslecially with guduodama on board.

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#503 Edited by TrueAustralian (1186 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55: you said if he touched it he'd die, if he touched it, it would just damage whatever part of him came into direct contact with it.

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#504 Posted by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@trueaustralian: He will die if he touches one, that's not wrong. I never it would be instant death via touch.

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#505 Posted by TrueAustralian (1186 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55: He'll be wounded if he touches one, at worst he'll die if one goes straight for his heart or brain.

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#506 Posted by HigherPower (12327 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55 said:

@god_vulcan: No. They only cracked because Madara himself was pressed against them. They completed blocked EE's shockwaves earlier. Saitama cannot breach them.

@God_Vulcan:

guguo dam cant destroy ppl with six paths chakra. thats why they cracked. anything without senjutsu chakra is disintegrated.

on topic: saitama cant fight 1000 narutos he dies. eslecially with guduodama on board.

Whups in that case I change my argument completely

@thedarkpaladin forget about that part with the TSB cuz I can't edit it rn

But everything else still stands :P

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#507 Edited by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@trueaustralian: Or if it does any other fatal level of damage, like erasing his arm, as he would be punching in this scenario.

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#508 Posted by TrueAustralian (1186 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55: Plenty of people survive loss of limb.

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#509 Posted by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@trueaustralian: Yeah, with immediate attention usually. No reason why he wouldn't just bleed to death. Or Naruto wouldn't follow through and erase him altogether.

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#510 Posted by HigherPower (12327 posts) - - Show Bio

@marc_55: How would Naruto fare if Saitama spammed serious punches? All of them have continental AOE and even greater destructive power. What would be his response to that?

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#511 Posted by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio
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#512 Posted by HigherPower (12327 posts) - - Show Bio

lol nvmind then

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#513 Edited by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan:

I never expected this would actually turn into a full on debate. But since we've made it this far I guess no turning back

Eh, it is what it is, I suppose.

I don't believe that it takes the same amount of energy to cut a moon in half as it does to destroy an earth's crust, but since you're suggesting it, I'd like to see where you get this information from and how you came to that conclusion

Both feats would require a specific number of petatons to accomplish. I'm not going calculate them both myself, but there have been various calcs that label them both around 500-600 petatons of TNT. If anything, that should be your job, since you've already made the claim that Roar Cannon is superior to Golden Wheel Reincarnation. :p

That's cool and all, but Saitama has never been hurt, injured, or even felt pain throughout the entire series. So we have no idea how much it would take to put him down, nor even the slightest idea how much it would take to hurt him. But since I don't want to venture into NLF territory, I'll put off an actual durability debate for later. So as off right now I'll say this concerning Saitama's durability: Naruto doesn't have any offensive techniques Saitama can't punch away with the shockwave of a serious strike, unless of course you want to argue that Naruto has more DC than Saitama.

Well, Naruto has shown better DC feats than Saitama has - his best punch to date merely split the clouds apart. I fail to see how that measures up to these attacks:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Of course, you can argue that his punch carried enough potency to repel a surface wiping attack, but in terms of raw DC, I fail to see how splitting a cloud formation measures up to attacks that produce a blast radius large enough to dwarf a country sized meteor shower - Madara uplifted the Frost Country when he used Chibaku Tensei, or the Bijuu Rasenshuriken, which generated an explosion that can be scaled using the curvature of the planet. Whether Saitama has felt pain before or not is honestly irrelevant when Naruto has techniques that ignore conventional durability. It also doesn't help that the majority of the opponents Saitama has faced so far don't measure up to Naruto in terms of feats.

Even the TSB, which is supposed to bypass durability, can be punched through. And 8 Gates Guy has demonstrated that strong enough punches can crack TSB, and Saitama's punches >>>>> Gai's.

Guy never made physical contact with the TSO, though. Naruto could always use a Shadow Clone combination and catch Saitama off guard from behind with a Rasenshuriken or TSO; it's not like he hasn't demonstrated that kind of strategical thinking before:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4Gallery image 5

So as of right now, Saitama doesn't really need durability because all of Naruto's offensive attacks will get countered by punches, all of which have multi-continental+ striking power and continental AOE

I beg to differ. If Naruto decides to spam thousands on clones and attack Saitama from all directions, he's going to have a difficult time not getting hit, especially when their maneuverability exceeds Satiama's - they can attack him from the air and on the ground if need be.

If the moon being hollow or not doesn't affect the feat in anyway why do so many people argue over it? Is cutting through a solid moon the same as cutting through a partially hollow moon? These are genuine questions I actually want to know. Because if there's no significant difference at all between cutting a 100% solid moon than cutting one with hollow spaces then what the hell?

They're not the same. My point is that the difference would depend entirely on how hollow the moon actually is. If we assume a portion of the crust was hollow, the difference would be as negligible as a mountain or two being leftover from a country busting attack - it wouldn't change the significance of the feat enough to matter. However, if the moon was really completely hollow, which would be illogical, then the feat would be far less impressive.

Where do you think Kurama and the Golem were fighting? The other side of the crust obviously. The fell through the crust of the moon from the surface and landed on the inside of the crust opposite of the moon's side they were on. Toneri's sword is longer than the moon's diameter, and stretch through the moon, and there were no solid parts it cut through besides the crust itself, indicating everything in-between (the entire expanse of the diamter) was hollowed out.

How do you know they weren't fighting the hollowed out portion of the crust? You do understand that the crust can be up to 63 miles thick, right? That's more than enough room for a small faction of Hamura's descendants to build a comfortable habitat. In the gif you posted, we only see a small portion of the inside, so what is your basis for saying there were no solid parts other than the crust?

I never said surface wiping required the same amount of energy, and idk why you brought up the comparison to moon busting at all, no one in the verse is moonbuster by feats, and definitely not Naruto.

You quite literally responded to this post of mine:

Planet level in what way? If you're trying to say he's able to bust a planet like you were arguing earlier, the only evidence you have for this is a scan that's clearly not meant to be taken literally, and Murata saying he might be able to destroy the Earth, which is vague at best. Would you argue that Yusuke from Yu Yu Hakusho is planet level simply because Genkai said he could obliterate the world if he got sick of it? At some point, you would have to distinguish figurative statements from literal ones.

By saying this:

An punching through Boros' beam while holding back??

So why bring up the Roar Cannon if you already understand that it's far less impressive than planet busting? The two aren't even remotely comparable, to be honest. Even taking into consideration that Saitama wasn't using his full power, there's no reason to assume that it would make much of a difference. That feat doesn't even prove Saitama has what it takes to overcome the GBE of our moon, let alone the Earth. Never once argued that Naruto was a moon buster by feats, nor did I even hint at anything like that.

And that punch is also above any attack Naruto has shown feat wise

Elaborate on this. I would argue that punching through a moon cutting attack while in a weakened form is at least comparable, and then there's the fact that he supplied half the energy needed to rip a moon sized chunk out of the planet and hurtle it into orbit. That would undeniably be superior to the amount of energy needed to counter Roar Cannon.

See this what I was talking about earlier. Kaguya never busted a planet, but has been stated to do so and is backed by the databook. But when Saitama get's similar evidence no one wants to believe he's planet level.

Probably because Saitama doesn't have similar evidence. In Kaguya's case, we have two statements regarding a very serious event, and if anything, the datbook only supports what we know about the Nature of TSO--how it erases matter on contact. Therefore, we can draw a logical inference and determine that Kaguya's planet-sized dimension (possibly bigger, but there's no evidence to support it) would have been erased by TSO. That's just basic common sense. In Saitama's case, he's complaining about losing his dinner and being woken up prematurely, then says if the day gets any shittier, he'll destroy the Earth. That statement sounds very figurative, and it's not meant to be taken literally. By what logic would Saitama, a hero, destroy the Earth for such inconsequential reasons? "Destroy the planet" can also be open to interpretation, as it doesn't necessarily have to translate to planet busting. You would have a good point if someone was trying to say Boros can't wipe the surface, merely because we never saw his attack do so.

I don't really see how you could make a case for that, he said he was gonna do it, has been stated to do if he wanted to, and the databook and secondary canon anime suggest he overcame an attack that was around planet level.

Technically, Murata never confirmed that he could do it. He merely said it's a possibility, meaning he's not too certain of that himself. We've already gone over the databook translation. You even linked me to a thread where someone debunked the idea of that attack being a planet buster.

Does he actually have to bust a planet to be planet level? Because that wouldn't be fair concerning Naruto is moon level despite not being able to bust one, and Kaguya is planet level despite not having busted one (I can see a case being made for Kaguya, but not naruto, especially since he made half a moon)

No, but he definitely needs more than a vague statement to be considered a planet buster. By that logic, why shouldn't we consider Yusuke a planet buster as well, since there are a few statements, albeit figurative ones, supporting the notion. I don't believe Naruto can bust a moon either way, so I'm not sure why you're even bringing him up as a comparison. He did, however, contribute half of the energy needed to create a moon and hurtle into the air. That would be around half the energy required to destroy one, which comes out to about 15 exatons, give or take.

Half-moon is superior to surface wiping? When the continent of Asia has more landmass than an entire, regular, solid moon??

Asia has more surface area than the moon, but surface area alone doesn't mean anything. There's are far more factors to consider than that, such as the volume and gravitational binding energy. For example, it only takes roughly 1.33 petatons to be considered continent level, while you would need a bare minimum of 29.6 exatons to overcome the moon's gravitational binding energy. Just to give you an idea of the difference, a single exaton is equivalent to 1,000 petatons. There's a good reason why all the world's nukes combined wouldn't even begin to scratch the surface of moon busting.

I'd like to see you prove this as well as supply where you get your information from, because I want to know in what universe creating half a moon is superior to multi-continental+ feat, especially when Asia has more landmass than the normal moon, and the multi continental attack was performed whilst holding back.

This is basic knowledge. Just look up how much energy is required to be considered moon level, then compare it with surface wiping.

Pretty sure Saitama was fine after punching the beam too

He overpowered the force of the attack with his own. It's a little different than sitting there and tanking it.

I never once said it minimized the actual feat, and don't know where you got that from

Nor did I accuse you of saying that. Just making sure you understand that it doesn't.

Why can't we use the timeframe in the anime? Because depending on whether you assume it's valid or not determine's the worth of my calc. (I used a percentage calculator and just plugged in the numbers lol)

Anime timeframes are often unreliable, since the animators will either speed up or slow down certain scenes to make it more convenient for the viewer. That way we don't have people sitting around watching Saitama fly to the moon in 10+ seconds, assuming it actually took that long.

Saitama has never been fatigued

Saitama's never fought in a war for days straight without rest and supplying energy to hundreds, or possibly a thousand other soldiers in order to amp their abilities by at least 3 times the norm:

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What notbale hax does he have the grants him an advantage besides TSB?

Rasenshuriken, which would attack all of the cells in Saitama's body - it can also catch him off guard many ways when used in conjunction with clones, or just the expansion itself if Saitama attempts to avoid it:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

And he has quite a few other unique abilities, such as Frog Kumite, which utilizes the Natural energy around Naruto fist, meaning he doesn't even need to make direct contact in a H2H fight for his attacks to do damage:

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Clone spam in combination with Odama Rasengan or Rasenshuriken:

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Keep in mind, he can make thousands of clones and surround Saitama from every angle.

Nothing stopping any of Naruto's projectile's from being deflected

Except the projectiles coming at him from every which way thanks to Shadow Clones. Saitama can't even sense their presence, so it would be fairly simple for one of them to sneak up behind him with TSB.

I didn't say it was a stomp. Never said that actually. In fact, I said the opposite of that:

...You really did:

@god_vulcan said:

@gotoucanario said:

Saitama still stomps

While you have said this:

A comment made roughly a year and a half ago. Many of my opinions regarding fictional characters have changed since back then.

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#514 Posted by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan:

Whups in that case I change my argument completely

@thedarkpaladin forget about that part with the TSB cuz I can't edit it rn

Fair enough. I didn't see this post until now, so you can ignore that part of the response if you want.

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#515 Edited by Zuriel-el (3023 posts) - - Show Bio

@God_Vulcan:

he still has to hit one clone at a time. and there are one thousand of them. each being able to fire bijuu dama (at sixteen these were each five mountain busters), now multiply that feat by a thousand.

and as saitama tries to kill one clone nothing stops naruto from attacking from behind with gudoudama rasenshuriken (an attack utilizing gudoudamas an explosive at a above bijuudama level) ps he fires six of those at once). the aoe is too much for saitama to dodge an since naruto will be in the air saitama has to get to the air, and last i checked saitama cant fly, so his maneuverability is zero, the moment he jumps he is a sitting duck.

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#516 Edited by Antonio_1996 (1255 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either way.

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#517 Posted by linglung (2213 posts) - - Show Bio

ahhh......

seriously guy's?? saitama win this fight,,

saitama serious punch = naruto 9 bijuu RS

saitama win this 6/10,, the only one way naruto to win this fight is with using TSB

but saitama can just punch him again and again,, SO6P weakness is senjutsu and pure physical attack

saitama win

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#518 Posted by EzraArcher (1162 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either way.

It could but I believe Saitama takes it due to speed and durability.

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#519 Edited by HigherPower (12327 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry for late reply bro...I´ll respond quicker next time. I kinda fell asleep last night lol.

One thing I wanted to say before we start our debate again is this: The picture in the OP shows EOS Naruto, so technically feats from the last should be non-applicable, and without many of the feats he had in the last he would lose... I kinda feel cheated debating against things that weren´t even valid anyway.

@thedarkpaladin

Both feats would require a specific number of petatons to accomplish. I'm not going calculate them both myself, but there have been various calcs that label them both around 500-600 petatons of TNT. If anything, that should be your job, since you've already made the claim that Roar Cannon is superior to Golden Wheel Reincarnation. :p

If the case is that the Roar Cannon is similar to the Golden Wheel in DC, my argument would still be valid. Saitama stood there and punched through it, the weight of his punch delivering a shock wave that carried enough momentum to completely disperse the beam, while Naruto had to get a running start and continually charge through, proving Saitama's superiority in the matter.

Well, Naruto has shown better DC feats than Saitama has - his best punch to date merely split the clouds apart. I fail to see how that measures up to these attacks:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Surprising that you make such a claim, I thought raw DC was the one area that Saitama was undeniably better than Naruto in. Those attacks aren't impressive at all, especially when you realize it´s Naruto's second strongest offensive technique, and it was only able to destroy meteors formed by a single country. Yet Saitama, while casual, one-shotted a continental meteor.

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To verify it even further, it was given the disaster level Dragon, meaning that it was no hyperbole that the meteor had continent busting potency.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4

So, unless each and every meteor Naruto destroyed could bust a continent, Saitama´s feat is still greater, and he did that casually. I see no reason why a serious Saitama couldn´t replicate Naruto´s feat, but on a much grander scale.

Of course, you can argue that his punch carried enough potency to repel a surface wiping attack, but in terms of raw DC, I fail to see how splitting a cloud formation measures up to attacks

You literally just said yourself it repelled a surface wiper- which is multi-continental+. The cloud formation being split just shows the range of Saitama's punch which is continental. And splitting clouds across the globe with air pressure is actually impressive, considering that a single cloud weighs millions of pounds.

that produce a blast radius large enough to dwarf a country sized meteor shower - Madara uplifted the Frost Country when he used Chibaku Tensei, or the Bijuu Rasenshuriken, which generated an explosion that can be scaled using the curvature of the planet.

Same thing as I said before, unless each of Madara's meteros could continent bust, there´s absolutely nothing to suggest Saitama couldn't replicate the feat on a greater scale, considering that the meteor he destroyed was far more potent than any Naruto has, and he did that casually while Sage Art: Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken is one of the Uzumaki's strongest attacks.

Whether Saitama has felt pain before or not is honestly irrelevant when Naruto has techniques that ignore conventional durability. It also doesn't help that the majority of the opponents Saitama has faced so far don't measure up to Naruto in terms of feats.

Only TSB ignores durability, and rasenshuriken is a physical attack so it doesn't "ignore" anything and it can always be reflected. And Meteroic Burst Boros could give Naruto a decent fight. While Naruto is undoubtedly more powerful and would certainly get the win, if could actually see Boros winning with BFR (via moon kick) if Naruto lets his guard down during the fight.

Guy never made physical contact with the TSO, though. Naruto could always use a Shadow Clone combination and catch Saitama off guard from behind with a Rasenshuriken or TSO; it's not like he hasn't demonstrated that kind of strategical thinking before:

It doesn't matter whether Guy made physical contact or not, the fact that it broke shows that with sufficient force the TSB (or TSO, whatever) has a breaking point. And that's all that really matters, now we know there's no NFL surrounding Goudama orbs. And since the TSB has never withstood a multi-continental+ shockwave, there´s no argument that you can make to say Saitama can overhwhelm TSB with punches like Guy did, strategical thinking or not.

I beg to differ. If Naruto decides to spam thousands on clones and attack Saitama from all directions, he's going to have a difficult time not getting hit, especially when their maneuverability exceeds Satiama's - they can attack him from the air and on the ground if need be.

Not really. Saitama traveled from the earth to the moon in seconds, which is 238,900 miles. That distance is enough to fit each planet in our solar system side by side with room to spare. So when it comes to evading attacks when he gets cornered, Saitama has sub-relativistic travel speed that stretches a multi-planetary range. He could evade the attack by leaping to somewhere else on the planet, like a few countries away, in only a matter of a few short seconds.

Also I don know why people act like Naruto's clones are invincible or anything, Sasuke fondles them all the time and usually in taijutsu. Really the only way I can see Naruto winning is if he starts of with thousands of Kurama clones right of the bat and spams is his most powerful justu the second the fight starts. If he starts off in base and trades blows with Saitama (like how Sasuke and Naruto's second fight started) he'll get one-shotted immeadiately.

They're not the same. My point is that the difference would depend entirely on how hollow the moon actually is. If we assume a portion of the crust was hollow, the difference would be as negligible as a mountain or two being leftover from a country busting attack - it wouldn't change the significance of the feat enough to matter. However, if the moon was really completely hollow, which would be illogical, then the feat would be far less impressive.

Feats from the last are supposed to be useless anyways, but I've already refuted them and it'd make me look lazy if stopped now. I agree the moon was 100% hollow, but since we don't know the degree or extent the moon was hollowed by then Toneri's feat in unquantifiable and should be just dropped altogether. Too many unknown variables.

How do you know they weren't fighting the hollowed out portion of the crust?

Because Kurama and the Golem literally fell through the crust... and there was a hole, so it makes no sense that they'd still be inside

Naruto´s chakra explodes causing a hole leading from the inner lining of the crust to the outside
Naruto´s chakra explodes causing a hole leading from the inner lining of the crust to the outside
Kurama and Golem fall through the hole, meaning that they were no longer inside the crust, and that their battle took place in hollow parts of the inside moon
Kurama and Golem fall through the hole, meaning that they were no longer inside the crust, and that their battle took place in hollow parts of the inside moon

You do understand that the crust can be up to 63 miles thick, right? That's more than enough room for a small faction of Hamura's descendants to build a comfortable habitat. In the gif you posted, we only see a small portion of the inside, so what is your basis for saying there were no solid parts other than the crust?

The length of the crust doesn't matter, Toneri's sword is longer than the diameter of the moon itself, and we saw the full extension of the sword going through the moon, and not once did it cut any material that wasn't the crust, indicating everything in-between was hollow.

You quite literally responded to this post of mine:

By saying this:

So why bring up the Roar Cannon if you already understand that it's far less impressive than planet busting?

Because Naruto Uzumaki does not have any multi-continental+ offensive technique, meaning roar canon is stronger than Naruto's strongest attacks (sage art tailed beast rasenshuriken and sage art super big ball rasenshuriken) and Saitama serious punch >>>>>> roar canon. So by logic Saitama serious punch >>>>>> Naruto's attacks.

The two aren't even remotely comparable, to be honest. Even taking into consideration that Saitama wasn't using his full power, there's no reason to assume that it would make much of a difference.

Lmao. I hope you realized you just said there´s no difference between not using your full power and using your full power.

That feat doesn't even prove Saitama has what it takes to overcome the GBE of our moon, let alone the Earth. Never once argued that Naruto was a moon buster by feats, nor did I even hint at anything like that.

Ok cool, since you know Naruto isn't close to moon buster, you should drop any argument concerning Naruto´s DC being greater than Saitama's, and it would be best to stop repeating yourself, since he doesn't. And to make matters worse, Saitama is only going to get more feats as the series progresses on, and all feats shown thus far have been casual.

Elaborate on this. I would argue that punching through a moon cutting attack while in a weakened form is at least comparable, and then there's the fact that he supplied half the energy needed to rip a moon sized chunk out of the planet and hurtle it into orbit. That would undeniably be superior to the amount of energy needed to counter Roar Cannon.

I elaborated on it earlier, when I explained Naruto had to run through it, Saitama jus stood there and punched it. His fist carried the momentum, while Naruto used his entire body weight, so it´s vastly more impressive, especially if you know the basics of physics. And this is all under the assumption that Toneri's attack and Boros' attacks are equal.

Probably because Saitama doesn't have similar evidence. In Kaguya's case, we have two statements regarding a very serious event, and if anything, the datbook only supports what we know about the Nature of TSO--how it erases matter on contact. Therefore, we can draw a logical inference and determine that Kaguya's planet-sized dimension (possibly bigger, but there's no evidence to support it) would have been erased by TSO. That's just basic common sense. In Saitama's case, he's complaining about losing his dinner and being woken up prematurely, then says if the day gets any shittier, he'll destroy the Earth. That statement sounds very figurative, and it's not meant to be taken literally. By what logic would Saitama, a hero, destroy the Earth for such inconsequential reasons? "Destroy the planet" can also be open to interpretation, as it doesn't necessarily have to translate to planet busting. You would have a good point if someone was trying to say Boros can't wipe the surface, merely because we never saw his attack do so.

Hulkage said the same thing. And technically it's true, but that means you just shot yourself in the foot because I could use your logic against you. Boros' beam is made of pure energy, and could destroy a planet's surface. That is multi-continental, and Saitama overcame it, making a serious attacks multi-continental+. Now listen carefully, I'm about to break this down.

Boros was flying, and was thousands of kilometers in the air when he fired the attack, yet it had the power to destroy the crust. How you use the attack depends on the outcome. Remember how Frieza destroyed the earth in RoF? By focusing all of his energy to the planet´s core and destroying it, which in turn blew up the planet. If Boros fired the beam point blank to the ground and it made its way to the core, then it would have the sufficient energy to blow up the core, thus blowing up the planet. Now how does that logic relate back to Saitama? Because like I said earlier, how you use an attack determines its outcome. Since Saitama is serious in this fight, every punch he throws will be a serious one, meaning each and every single attack he delivers has multi-continental+ busting capacity.

So, like I´ve asked already so many times, what´s stopping Saitama from spamming these punches? Don´t you think if Boros spammed Roar cannons with the intention to blow up the Earth he could? Kaguya had the intention to blow up the planet. Naruto, no matter whether he has the intention or not, can never destroy a planet. If Saitama literally rained serious punches on the ground (each one busting the crust) there´s no amount of logic that could suggest he wouldn´t destroy the planet. It´s common sense, just like you said. Consecutive serious punches is what I call it. And that attack is planet level by common sense, something Naruto doesn´t have the durability to withstand.

Technically, Murata never confirmed that he could do it. He merely said it's a possibility, meaning he's not too certain of that himself. We've already gone over the databook translation. You even linked me to a thread where someone debunked the idea of that attack being a planet buster.

Yes, as you can see I debunked Boros, but I was still making an argument without it because I don't need to wank.

No, but he definitely needs more than a vague statement to be considered a planet buster. By that logic, why shouldn't we consider Yusuke a planet buster as well, since there are a few statements, albeit figurative ones, supporting the notion. I don't believe Naruto can bust a moon either way, so I'm not sure why you're even bringing him up as a comparison. He did, however, contribute half of the energy needed to create a moon and hurtle into the air. That would be around half the energy required to destroy one, which comes out to about 15 exatons, give or take.

Well, I used your own method of common sense and logic to show to you why Saitama is a potential planet buster, so I don't even really need those anymore. He's going to get more feats anyway, and Murata has already confirmed that this will happen when Saitama fights a new villain:

No Caption Provided

Apparently it'll take place when Saitama fights ¨Metal Overlord¨. It hasn't actually happened yet, so it's only a matter of time.

Asia has more surface area than the moon, but surface area alone doesn't mean anything. There's are far more factors to consider than that, such as the volume and gravitational binding energy. For example, it only takes roughly 1.33 petatons to be considered continent level, while you would need a bare minimum of 29.6 exatons to overcome the moon's gravitational binding energy. Just to give you an idea of the difference, a single exaton is equivalent to 1,000 petatons. There's a good reason why all the world's nukes combined wouldn't even begin to scratch the surface of moon busting.

I do consider the Moon's GBE, but you need to realize Toneri never overcame the GBE. If he did the two halves of the moon would have drifted apart, but they stayed in place, eventually meaning they would reconnect. And it´s also impossible for Toneri to have overcame the GBE of the moon anyways, because the moon's core was replaced with the Tenseigan, so we don´t know how much energy it would take to overcome the GBE of that foreign energy source, or even it´s the same type of energy needed. Not only that, the moon was terraformed.

There are simply far too many unkown factors and variables to consider for you to base a concrete argument on. And that's what you've been doing, basing arguments on unkown factors. They're all not quantifiable, so you've been basing all your arguments on pure speculation, because there's no way to verify anything you're saying, or all the numbers you keep pulling randomly.

This is basic knowledge. Just look up how much energy is required to be considered moon level, then compare it with surface wiping.

Same thing as above. If I look it up, google is gonna give me a calc that depends on a how much energy it would take to cut a solid moon. We don´t even know what degree of hollowness Toneri´ś moon is, so we should drop the feat altogether.

This is part of the reason we should stop using feats from the last.

He overpowered the force of the attack with his own. It's a little different than sitting there and tanking it.

Saitama could do the same. And why tank an attack that gives you needless damage when you can overpower it? Same reason Saitama deflected Roar canon.

Nor did I accuse you of saying that. Just making sure you understand that it doesn't.

Fair enough.

Anime timeframes are often unreliable, since the animators will either speed up or slow down certain scenes to make it more convenient for the viewer. That way we don't have people sitting around watching Saitama fly to the moon in 10+ seconds, assuming it actually took that long.

Guess the calc was useless then. I think it wasn´t 100% accurate anyways, so it's for the best I didn't use it after all.

Saitama's never fought in a war for days straight without rest and supplying energy to hundreds, or possibly a thousand other soldiers in order to amp their abilities by at least 3 times the norm:

You do realize that the entire war arc, from beginning to end, from the first confrotation with white Zetsu´s all the way to Kaguya´s death and Naruto´s final battle with Sauce, lasted only 2 days? And Saitama broke his human limiters with that training, and his energy was stated by Boros to be limitless.

Rasenshuriken, which would attack all of the cells in Saitama's body

Saitama would just punch it out of his way before it reaches him. The shockwaves from his casual punches can reshape small mountains formations into valleys:

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I see no reason why a shock wave from a serious punch wouldn't at least redirect a rasenshuriken.

- it can also catch him off guard many ways when used in conjunction with clones, or just the expansion itself if Saitama attempts to avoid it:

Yeah, that pain couldn't avoid it, nor could Madara, but neither could travel 238,000 miles in seconds. That´s more than 10x earth´s circumference. I see no reason why Saitama couldn't hop to a separate continent in about a second.

And he has quite a few other unique abilities, such as Frog Kumite, which utilizes the Natural energy around Naruto fist, meaning he doesn't even need to make direct contact in a H2H fight for his attacks to do damage:

Like I said, if at any point Naruto trades blows with Saitama in a purely physical confrontation he´d get one-shotted, especially since Saitama won´t be holding back in the slightest here. A H2H fight is literally the worst possible route he could take, and I doubt naruto´s physical strikes would tickle Saitama anyway, seeing how he didn´t flinch when Boros kicked him to the moon

Clone spam in combination with Odama Rasengan or Rasenshuriken:

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Consecutive serious punches.

Keep in mind, he can make thousands of clones and surround Saitama from every angle.

Jumps to the moon or somewhere else around to the earth. If naruto tries to block his way, consecutive serious punches (which is a planet lvl attack) would pummel through and open up a gap in the omnidirectional attack

Except the projectiles coming at him from every which way thanks to Shadow Clones. Saitama can't even sense their presence, so it would be fairly simple for one of them to sneak up behind him with TSB.

Same as above. And TSB have a breaking point, so NLF doesn´t apply to them. The fact that we know it can shatter means that will enough force Saitama can crack it, and I think a couple of multi-continental shockwaves should do the trick, especially since the TSB has no durability feats withstanding it

...You really did:

@god_vulcan said

Saitama still stomps

I was referring to to the course of our debate. And even though I said that I changed my mind immeadiately after, and I said I could argue that naruto wins, justa as much as I am arguing for Saitama. The match could go either way, I´m just leaning torwards Saitama from the time-being because he hasn´t shown his upper limits yet, while Naruto has

A comment made roughly a year and a half ago. Many of my opinions regarding fictional characters have changed since back then.

That´s a shame, you were right a year and a half ago. Although your arguments now are pretty solid, I feel bad for anyone supporting nardo in this fight. Saitama hasn´t shown any effort at all whatsoever, and he´s going to get more feats, and when he does, it´ll be amusing to see all the bandwagons switch sides

I´m tired af... as I thought, you´re a formidable debater paladin. I haven´t had to exert myself this much since @amendment50, and I don´t usually go all out in debates except when I´m talking to @marc_55 and @thelocust619

Idk maybe we can do a CAV in the future. Kudos to you bro

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#520 Posted by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan: I'm assuming that's a compliment. Appreciate the praise.

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#521 Edited by HigherPower (12327 posts) - - Show Bio
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#522 Posted by Marc_55 (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@ezraarcher: Well, Naruto is quantifiably faster, and his precog makes that gap even bigger.

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#523 Edited by Thedarkpaladin (22886 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan:

Sorry for late reply bro...I´ll respond quicker next time. I kinda fell asleep last night lol

No problem, man. I'm actually replying late myself, because I didn't want to type this all from my phone. In fact, I'm not going to be able to get another reply to a long post up until at least Monday, since I'll be on my phone most of the time until then, and writing out lengthy posts on the mobile is always a pain in the neck. So do feel free to take your time if you decide to make another reply. There's no rush as far as I'm concerned.

One thing I wanted to say before we start our debate again is this: The picture in the OP shows EOS Naruto, so technically feats from the last should be non-applicable, and without many of the feats he had in the last he would lose... I kinda feel cheated debating against things that weren´t even valid anyway

Not necessarily. Even if we exclude the moon feat entirely, which is really the only one we've been discussing that doesn't apply to Naruto from The Last, his superior showings can be found towards the end of the manga either way.

If the case is that the Roar Cannon is similar to the Golden Wheel in DC, my argument would still be valid. Saitama stood there and punched through it, the weight of his punch delivering a shockwave that carried enough momentum to completely disperse the beam, while Naruto had to get a running start and charge through, proving Saitama superiority in the matter.

This was due to the force of Saitama's best punch cleaving through Boros' Roar Cannon. In Naruto's case, he merely focused his energy into his arm and basically ran through the Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosion; not throwing a punch until after he reached Toneri's position. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that Saitama, while using his most powerful attack in the entire series, was superior to Naruto when the latter not only tanked the very same technique the fist time it was used and sustained virtually no damage at all, but countered it without using any of his best techniques.

Surprising that you make such a claim, I thought DC was the one area that Saitama was undeniably superior to Naruto in. Those attacks aren´t impressive at all, especially when you realize it´s Naruto´s second strongest offensive technique, and it was only able to destroy meteors formed by a single country.

DC, or destructive capacity, relates to how much destruction or environmental damage a character can cause. In that aspect, Naruto's feats are undoubtedly superior by several magnitudes, as he's shown the ability to wipe out multiple meteors rather effortlessly, and the mere fragments from said meteors were shown to be much larger than mountain ranges:

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To accurately determine the scale of Naruto's attacks even further, we can compare the explosion to Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o, which is already a mountain-sized construct due to the fact that it's comparable to Kurama - the same beast that's shown to be roughly the size of one as well:

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However, Sasuke's Susano'o was basically unnoticeable next to the blast radius of Naruto's attack:

Sasuke is the little dot on the right inside the red square flying past a broken fragment of one of the meteors (left side).
Sasuke is the little dot on the right inside the red square flying past a broken fragment of one of the meteors (left side).

Keep in mind, Naruto one-shotted each and every one of these meteors - his attack absolutely dwarfing them:

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Yet Saitama, while casual, one-shotted a continental meteor.

Continental meteor? What actual proof do you have to substantiate such a claim? Because other than a map, which to my knowledge, can only be found in the anime, making it non-canon to the manga and webcomic, there is absolutely no evidence backing this up. Hell, basic logic would dictate that the meteor was nowhere close to continental, seeing as how regular people were trying to escape the city even though there were only minutes left until impact... Anyone who understands that they're living in a city the size of a country would be able to comprehend how futile it would be to even try and escape:

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Additionally, we see Beefcake, a giant from one of the first chapters in the manga, wipe out an entire city, according to his brother, with nothing but a wave of his arm, yet, interestingly enough, it only ends up killing thousands of people at best:

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Smaller cities generally have a population of anywhere from 100,000 to 300,000 people, while larger cities will have over 300,000 to 1,000,000 people living in them. So, there are only thousands of people living in a city comparable to that of a decent sized country, at least according to the map in the anime? That doesn't sound very logical at all, unless we assume these cities are similar in size to the smallest countries in the world, which would mean destroying one is a very unimpressive feat.

It's also worth mentioning that Beefcake completely annihilated B-city after falling on it:

No Caption Provided

In this very same scan, there are a couple of clues pointing suggesting the city isn't very large at all. Beefcake wiping it out just by falling down on it is one obvious indicator. Another can be seen by taking a look at the surrounding mountains and comparing them to the amount of room Beefcake and the city take up.

Don't even get me started on License-less Rider traveling from city to city in such a short amount of time on his bicycle.

To verify it even further, it was given the disaster level Dragon, meaning that it was no hyperbole that the meteor had continent busting potency

Dragon level disaster simply means multiple cities would be in danger from the imminent threat. Nothing even remotely implies that meteor would be continental in any way, shape, or form.

So, unless each and every meteor Naruto destroyed could bust a continent, Saitama´s feat is still greater, and he did that casually. I see no reason why a serious Saitama couldn´t replicate Naruto´s feat, but on a much grander scale

Naruto wouldn't need to destroy a meteor that could bust a continent for his feat to be considered greater in the first place, since there was never any sort of indication that the meteor Saitama destroyed was a continent buster. A meteor large enough to bust a small continent would easily wipe out life on the planet and damage it greatly. Hell, a meteor that's about 50-60 miles wide would accomplish that much. Even a 7-8 mile-wide meteor would result in the death of billions. In short, a continent busting meteor would easily fall under God level disaster, and based on the information provided above, there's little reason to assume destroying a few cities in the OPM verse equates to a continental level feat simply because of a map in the anime that provides little insight into the size of the these cities, while the manga itself contradicts the idea of them being as large as you claim numerous times. Naruto's busting multiple meteors that were created by uplifting the Frost Country is quanfitiably superior to Saitama's in every conceivable way. Especially since tiny fragments from these meteors were dwarfing entire mountain ranges.

You literally just said yourself it repelled a surface wiper- which is multi-continental+. The cloud formation being split just shows the range of Saitama´s punch which is continental. And splitting clouds across the globe with air pressure is actually impressive, considering that a single cloud weighs millions of pounds

Which still doesn't measure up in terms of destruction. A physical strike that can repel an energy attack may have more force, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will cause more environmental damage, since energy dispersed from a punch is far more concentrated. Splitting a cloud formation is also far less impressive than vaporizing massive meteors when even their fragments would make mountain ranges look insignificant, and mountains can weigh up to billions of tons. There are jets in real life that will part the clouds simply by moving fast; they're just made up of water.

Same thing as I said before, unless each of Madaras meteros could continent bust, there´s absolutely nothing to suggest Saitama couldn´t replicate the feat on a greater scale, considering that the meteor he destroyed was far more potent than any Naruto has, and he did that casually while Sage Art: Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken is one of the Uzumaki´s strongest attacks

And as I refuted above, the meteor Saitama destroyed was quantifiably inferior to even a single Chibaku Tensei meteor Madara dropped. There is insufficient evidence from the manga suggesting it's anywhere close to continental. While Naruto used one of his better attacks, it still doesn't change the fact that he blew them all away without any problems, and wasn't fatigued in the slightest afterwards.

Only TSB ignores durability, and rasenshuriken is a physical attack so it doesn´t ¨ignore" anything and it can always be reflected. And Meteroic Burst Boros could give Naruto a decent fight. While Naruto is undoubtedly more powerful and would certainly get the win, if could actually see Boros winning with BFR (via moon kick) if Naruto lets his guard down during the fight

Rasenshuriken creates a vortex of microscopic wind blades that cut every cell in the body. Being able to withstand a powerful explosion doesn't grant you resistance to this type of attack. Tsunade's description compares it to a poison rather than a standard attack:

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Meaning, if Saitama gets tagged by one, it's going to damage the cells in his body, since he's never demonstrated any resistance to a cellular level attack before. While it can certainly be reflected by a shockwave from one of Saitama's more powerful strikes, Naruto can just as easily catch him off guard from behind using a barrage of clones as a distraction, or even have one or two of his clones hold Saitama in place while the real Naruto throws the attack. In all honesty, Naruto has shown the ability to jump from the moon to Earth's proximity relatively quickly when he saved Toneri, and I could just as easily argue that Boros would have defeated Saitama with that very same kick had he not been fortunate enough to land on the moon. Saitama has a knack for standing still and trying to tank attacks after all, while Naruto doesn't usually fight like that.

It doesn´t matter whether Guy made physical contact or not, the fact that it broke shows that with sufficient force the TSB (or TSO, whatever) has a breaking point. And that´s all that really matters, now we know there´s no NFL surrounding Goudama orbs. And since the TSB has never withstood a multi-continental+ shockwave, there´s no argument that you can make to say Saitama can overhwhelm TSB with punches like Guy did, strategical thinking or not

It actually does matter, especially when Saitama can easily be caught from behind by one of them. Strategical thinking play a big part in this battle, seeing as Naruto has 20 minutes of preparation before the fight even takes place, and Saitama isn't exactly a strategical thinker himself.

Not really. Saitama traveled from the earth to the moon in seconds, which is 238,900 miles. That distance is enough to fit each planet in our solar system side by side with room to spare. So when it comes to evading attacks when he gets cornered, Saitama has sub-relativistic travel speed that stretches a multi-planetary range. He could evade the attack by leaping to somewhere else on the planet, like a few countries away, in only a matter of a few short seconds.

We don't even know how long it took Saitama to make it back to Earth, and that feat was accomplished under special circumstances. For starters, the moon's weaker gravity undoubtedly aided him, and considering the fact that there is no resistance in the vacuum of space, nothing is going to slow him down significantly once he escapes the moon's gravitational pull, which happens to be much weaker than Earth's. And the only way I could even see that being a possibility is if the moon is visible in the sky. If Saitama just jumps randomly into space, he's liable to kill himself. Furthermore, leaping somewhere else on the planet, assuming he could actually do this, would result in an immediate loss due to self-bfr. Furthermore, we're talking about a character who needed some time to travel from Z-City to J-City while running at full speed:

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Also I don know why people act like Naruto´s clones are invincible or anything, Sasuke fondles them all the time and usually in taijutsu. Really the only way I can see Naruto winning is if he starts of with thousands of Kurama clones right of the bat and spams is his most powerful justu the second the fight starts. If he starts off in base and trades blows with Saitama (like how Sasuke and Naruto´s second fight started) he´ll get one-shotted immeadiately

Sasuke has never once fodderized more than a handful of Naruto's clones with taijutsu. In part one, he was able to defeat a few of them during their rooftop battle, but the clones ended up catching him with an Uzumaki Barrage - forcing Sasuke to counter with a Katon. Sasuke is more skilled in Taijutsu than either Naruto or Saitama anyway - having shown better H2H technique than either of them. Besides, current Naruto can produce far more clones than he was able to during the events of part 1 and when they're using Kurama's avatar, they can survive blows from a Bijuu-Chakra-enhanced Susano'o:

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Come to think of it, Naruto has 20 minutes of preparation here, so he can easily have one of his clones hide in the distance and accumulate all the Natural Energy above ground, and since Naruto will also have the Bijuu Chakra at his disposal unlike he did during the fight with Sasuke, that's just adding icing on the cake. Preparation is really what's sealing the deal here. I would normally say the battle could go either way depending on the circumstance, but Naruto has too many ways to win with that much preparation.

Feats from the last are supposed to be useless anyways, but I´ve already refuted them and it´d make me look lazy if stopped now. I agree the moon was 100% hollow, but since we don´t know the degree or extent the moon was hollowed by then Toneri´s feat in unquantifiable and should be just dropped altogether. Too many unknown variables

Feats from the Last aren't even needed here, because as I stated before, his better feats, like contributing half the energy needed to rip a moon-sized chunk out of the planet and bind it together with gravity, then launch it into orbit is far more impressive. As for Toneri's feats, it's clearly in the lower end of moon level (since Toneri merely sliced through it without overcoming its binding energy) like the author depicted. Unless there's some concrete evidence you can show proving without a doubt that the moon was hollow enough to make the feat considerably less impressive than it would normally be, then I personally don't see why it should be blatantly disregarded altogether. The burden of proof falls on you if you're trying to argue that the moon was hollow enough to make much of a difference.

Because Kurama and the Golem literally fell through the crust... and there was a hole, so it makes no sense that they´d still be inside

Okay, what does this prove again? If the crust was partially hollowed out, and we see Naruto and Kurama fall through a thin layer of the crust that leads to the surface of the moon, that somehow disproves the notion of them fighting in a hollowed out portion of the crust when it can extend 63 miles deep? How does that make any sense? Lol

The length of the crust doesn´t matter, Toneri´s sword is longer than the diameter of the moon itself, and we saw the full extension of the sword going through the moon, and not once did it cut any material that wasn´t the crust, indicating everything in-between was hollow

The images you posted only shows Toneri's sword cutting through a small section of the moon that was hollow. We don't see it cut through the entire thing, so basing a hollow moon argument off of that is incredibly faulty.

Because Naruto Uzumaki does not have any multi-continental+ offensive technique, meaning roar canon is stronger than Naruto´s strongest attacks (sage art tailed beast rasenshuriken and sage art super big ball rasenshuriken) and Saitama serious punch >>>>>> roar canon. So by logic Saitama serious punch >>>>>> Naruto´s attacks

That's a different discussion entirely. We're talking about your evidence, or lack thereof, that Saitama is a planet buster. Punching away a surface wiping attack is no indication of planet busting power--simple as that. And Naruto providing half the energy needed to create a moon requires far more energy than repelling Boros' Roar Cannon. Since Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is classified as an offensive technique, it merely shows Naruto is capable of putting forth more energy into his attacks than Saitama. And before you say Six Paths Chibaku Tensei was a one-time technique, it's completely irrelevant in the sense that it wouldn't change the amount of energy Naruto himself supplied, i.e., half the energy needed to be considered higher-end moon level.

Lmao. I hope you realized you just said there´s no difference between not using your full power and using your full power

...You need to grasp the context of my statement before jumping to conclusions. First off, I didn't not say there was no difference between not using your full power and using your full power. That's a huge misinterpretation on your part... What I am saying is that even if we assume Saitama has what it takes to overcome the GBE of our moon, nevermind the Earth, even if he was using his full power, given the massive difference between surface wiping and moon busting.

Ok cool, since you know Naruto isn´t close to moon buster, you should drop any argument concerning Naruto´s DC being greater than Saitama´s, and it would be best to stop repeating yourself, since he doesn´t. And to make matters worse, Saitama is only going to get more feats as the series progresses on, and all feats shown thus far have been casual

This is a flawed argument. Just because I acknowledge that Naruto isn't a moon buster by feats doesn't mean I'm going to drop any argument pertaining to his DC being superior by feats, which it definitely is. I don't acknowledge Saitama being anywhere close to a moon buster either, since his best feat to date is repelling a surface wiping attack. Whether Saitama gets better feats in the future has no bearing on our current debate. As of right now, his DC feats are splitting a few clouds, vastly unimpressive compared to Naruto's, and plowing through a canyon with the shockwave from one of his punches, also inferior to Naruto's DC feats.

I elaborated on it earlier, when I explained Naruto had to run through it, Saitama jus stood there and punched it. His fist carried the momentum, while Naruto used his entire body weight, so it´s vastly more impressive, especially if you know the basics of physics. And this is all under the assumption that Toneri´s attack and Boros´ attacks are equal

Saitama deflected it with his most powerful attack shown to date. Naruto simply focused Chakra into his arm and ran through the Golden Wheel Explosion. And since this isn't even Naruto's most impressive feat, it doesn't matter either way.

Hulkage said the same thing. And technically it´s true, but that means you just shot yourself in the foot because I could use your logic against you. Boros´ beam is made of pure energy, and could destroy a planet´s surface. That is multi-continental, and Saitama overcame it, making a serious attacks multi-continental+. Now listen carefully, I´m about to break this down.

The logic doesn't work against me in this case, and I'll explain why below.

Boros was flying, and was thousands of kilometers in the air when he fired the attack, yet it had the power to destroy the crust. How you use the attack depends on the outcome. Remember how Frieza destroyed the earth in RoF? By focusing all of his energy to the planet´s core and destroying it, which in turn blew up the planet. If Boros fired the beam point blank to the ground and it made it´s way to the core, then it would have the sufficient energy to blow up the core, thus blowing up the planet.

This is speculation at best. Even if Boros fires his Roar Cannon from point blank range at the ground, there's no guarantee that it would even reach the core, definitely no reason to assume it would be destroyed even if it did. In real life, I'm not even sure that destroying the core would result in a a chain reaction that causes the planet to explode like what happened to Namek in DB. The more I think about it, that doesn't even make any sense. Basically, this is like me speculating what would happen if Naruto fired his most powerful energy attacks at the core and it was destroyed. Would that in-turn make him a planet buster?

Now how does that logic relate back to Saitama? Because like I said earlier, how you use an attack determines it´s outcome. Since Saitama is serious in this fight, every punch he throws will be a serious one, meaning each and every single attack he delivers has multi-continental+ busting capacity.

Saitama is morals off, which means he doesn't mind killing Naruto. That doesn't automatically mean every single punch he throws is going to be equivalent to that of his most serious attack.

So, like I´ve asked already so many times, what´s stopping Saitama from spamming these punches? Don´t you think if Boros spammed Roar cannons with the intention to blow up the Earth he could? Kaguya had the intention to blow up the planet. Naruto, no matter whether he has the intention or not, can never destroy a planet. If Saitama literally rained serious punches on the ground (each one busting the crust) there´s no amount of logic that could suggest he wouldn´t destroy the planet. It´s common sense, just like you said. Consecutive serious punches is what I call it. And that attack is planet level by common sense, something Naruto doesn´t have the durability to withstand

We don't even know if Boros or Saitama could spam those type of attacks. Dishing out that much energy repeatedly is going to leave you drained fast, and since neither have shown the reserves needed to do so, there's no reason to assume they can or would. Especially not Boros, since he literally releases all of his energy to use Roar Cannon. And if they spammed those kind of attacks, how long would it take to completely destroy the Earth? There are too many variables and assumptions that you're putting into this argument. Even if Saitama rained down serious punches with surface wiping potency, it doesn't mean the DC or AoE caused by them would be enough to bust a planet. And surface wiping+ doesn't begin to scratch the surface of planet busting power. This is like saying Naruto could eventually bust the planet with high-potency attacks that do not cause much destruction simply because he has supplied half the energy needed to create a moon sized satellite and bind it together in the past. Consecutive serious punches is nothing but a fanfiction of yours for now. This move doesn't exist in the manga and has never been used once, nor is there any common putting it on the level of planet busting... Saitama doesn't have the durability feats needed to withstand multiple high powered attacks from Naruto either. This is where reaction speed comes into play, and Naruto is undoubtedly superior in that category due to Sage Sensing and Danger Sensing.

Yes, as you can see I debunked Boros, but I was still making an argument without it because I don´t need to wank

What did you debunk, exactly? If you're referring to the link you provided that debunks the databook statement being interpreted as planet busting, then I completely agree. If you're talking about Boros being able to bust a planet by theoretically spamming Roar Cannons, I don't agree, because there's nothing factual to support it.

Well, I used your own method of common sense and logic to show to you why Saitama is a potential planet buster, so I don´t even really need those anymore. He´s going to get more feats anyway, and Murata has already confirmed that this will happen when Saitama fights a new villain:

You didn't use my logic with that argument above. It relies heavily on assumptions. The fact is, Saitama's best feat is nowhere close to moon busting, while one of the statements you have shown are obviously figurative (see Genkai and Yusuke example), and the other isn't even a concrete yes or no.

Apparently it´ll take place when Saitama fights ¨Metal Overlord¨. It hasn´t actually happened yet, but it´s been confirmed to happen, so it´s only a matter of time

Hmm, I've heard this rumor before, but I can't seem to find the interview. You wouldn't happen to have it, would you?

I do consider the Moon´s GBE, but you need to realize Toneri never overcame the GBE. If he did the two halves of the moon would have drifted apart, but they stayed in place, eventually meaning they would reconnect. And it´s also impossible for Toneri to have overcame the GBE of the moon anyways, because the moon´s core was replaced with the Tenseigan, so we don´t know how much energy it would take to overcome the GBE of that foreign energy source, or even it´s the same type of energy needed. Not only that, the moon was terraformed.

...I understand Toneri's attack never overcame the Moon's GBE. We were discussing an entirely different feat if you recall (the one where Naruto contributed half the energy needed to create a moon).

There are simply far too many unkown factors and variables to consider for you to base a concrete argument on. And that´s what you´ve been doing, basing arguments on unkown factors. They´re all unquantifiable, so you´ve been basing all your arguments on pure speculation, because there´s no way to verify anything you´re saying, or all the numbers you keep pulling randomly.

No, that's precisely what you've been doing by claiming that Boros and Saitama are potential planet busters by spamming their most powerful attacks, which relies on the assumption that they could even do such a thing without tiring out. As for Toneri's feat, you're the one who is arguing that the moon is hollow. The "proof" you posted so far doesn't indicate enough of it was hollow enough to minimize the feat in any way.

Same thing as above. If I look it up, google is gonna give me a calc that depends on a how much energy it would take to cut a solid moon. We don´t even know what degree of hollowness Toneri´ś moon is, so we should drop the feat altogether.

This is part of the reason we should stop using feats from the last.

Once again, you're responding to a completely separate argument here. Look back through the conversation and you'll see that we were talking about Naruto supplying half the amount of energy required to make a moon, thereby, making him half moon level, which is vastly superior to surface wiping.

Saitama could do the same.

Prove it. He doesn't shown the durability feats needed to tank an attack like that by just sitting there and taking its full force head on.

And why tank an attack that gives you needless damage when you can overpower it? Same reason Saitama deflected Roar canon.

This is beside the point. Deflecting an attack isn't the same thing as tanking one.

You do realize that the entire war arc, from beginning to end, from the first confrotation with white Zetsu´s all the way to Kaguya´s death and Naruto´s final battle with Sauce, lasted only 2 days? And Saitama broke his human limiters with that training, and his energy was stated by Boros to be limitless

They fought for about 3 days, if you include the fact that Naruto and Sasuke didn't release the victims from Infinite Tsukuyomi until the beginning of day 4. If you remember, they still fought Madara, Kaguya and each other during the third day. Saitama's daily training method is far from impressive when compared to fighting a war and dishing out a portion of your energy to hundreds, if not thousands of soldiers. Genos even states that it's just a conventional training method:

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As for Boros sensing no limit to Saitama's power, that doesn't really mean much. Terms like that are often used in fiction. Even King Kai said the same thing about Goku, and we know for a fact that he tires out over time:

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Saitama would just punch it out of his way before it reaches him. The shockwaves from his casual punches can reshape mountains formations into valleys:

I see no reason why a shockwave from a serious punch wouldn´t at least redirect a rasenshuriken

Yeah, he can certainly do that, but Naruto can always catch him off guard from behind, or hold him in place using one of his clones.

Yeah, that pain couldn´t avoid it, nor could Madara, but neither could travel 238,000 miles in seconds. That´s more than 10x earth´s circumference. I see no reason why Saitama couldn´t hop to a separate continent in about a second

I've already addressed how the moon feat was accomplished under special circumstances, and how jumping to another continent to avoid a Rasenshuriken would only result in loss by BFR, since there's no guarantee he would return to the battlefield when he jumps again.

Like I said, if at any point Naruto trades blows with Saitama in a purely physical confrontation he´d get one-shotted, especially since Saitama won´t be holding back in the slightest here. A H2H fight is literally the worst possible route he could take, and I doubt naruto´s physical strikes would tickle Saitama anyway, seeing how he didn´t flinch when Boros kicked him to the moon

Well, Naruto has the reaction speed feats, along with two forms of sensing, to argue that Saitama would have a very difficult time landing a blow. When Naruto's is up close, he doesn't really need to rely on physical strikes anyway. He can always use a TSO staff to take one of Saitama's arm right off. It's not like Saitama would be aware of TSO's erasure effect and if he tries to punch it, that's GG.

Consecutive serious punches

It won't help much if Naruto attacks him from all directions, including the air.

Jumps to the moon or somewhere else around to the earth.

Jumping from the Earth to the moon is actually far more difficult than jumping from the moon to Earth. And if tries to jump to a random location on the planet, who's to say he'll be able to make it back to the battle field quick enough to prevent a BFR. He's basically jumping blind in the sense that he wouldn't exactly know where he's going to end up.

If naruto tries to block his way, consecutive serious punches (which is a planet lvl attack) would pummel through and open up a gap in the omnidirectional attack

A move that doesn't exist lacks a basis to be considered planet level. You would first need to prove Saitama can dish out a barrage of his most powerful attacks without tiring out quickly. That is his trump card after all.

Same as above. And TSB have a breaking point, so NLF doesn´t apply to them. The fact that we know it can shatter means that will enough force Saitama can crack it, and I think a couple of multi-continental shockwaves should do the trick, especially since the TSB has no durability feats withstanding it

There is no NLF being applied here in the first place. Whether they can shatter or not won't matter if Naruto tags him from up close or catches him off guard from behind using multiple clones. With 20 minutes of preparation, he can summon an army of toads thousands of clones, some of which can hide out and gather Natural Energy. There's also Ma and Pa's Frog Song that will put Saitama under a powerful Genjutsu. He would be too distracted with Naruto to even worry about a couple of screeching frogs, especially since he doesn't know what they're doing.

I was referring to to the course of our debate.

I mean, you did quote a year-and-a-half-old post of mine immediately afterwards. Saying something like "meanwhile, you've said this".

And even though I said that I changed my mind immeadiately after, and I said I could argue that naruto wins, justa as much as I am arguing for Saitama. The match could go either way, I´m just leaning torwards Saitama from the time-being because he hasn´t shown his upper limits yet, while Naruto has

I also agree that it can go either way, but looking at the OP again and seeing that Naruto has 20 minutes of prep time, I'm inclined to lean towards him at this point.

That´s a shame, you were right a year and a half ago. Although your arguments now are pretty solid, I feel bad for anyone supporting nardo in this fight. Saitama hasn´t shown any effort at all whatsoever, and he´s going to get more feats, and when he does, it´ll be amusing to see all the bandwagons switch sides

How was I right if you were just saying that the match can go either way and you could argue for Naruto yourself? Lol

Based on what Saitama has shown so far, the arguments for Naruto are definitely understandable, just like the arguments for Saitama are given his ridiculously OP physical attacks. When and if he does get more feats, then I'll be inclined to agree with you.

I´m tired af... as I thought, you´re a formidable debater paladin. I haven´t had to exert myself this much since @amendment50, and I don´t usually go all out in debates except when I´m talking to @marc_55 and @thelocust619

I appreciate the praise, bro. You definitely made some good points yourself. :)

Idk maybe we can do a CAV in the future. Kudos to you bro

Yeah, I'll let you know about that. I've never really been into CaVs too much--haven't participated in one during my time on this site--but maybe I'll be down for one in the near future.

Avatar image for higherpower
#524 Edited by HigherPower (12327 posts) - - Show Bio

Final Counters

@thedarkpaladin

No problem, man. I'm actually replying late myself, because I didn't want to type this all from my phone. In fact, I'm not going to be able to get another reply to a long post up until at least Monday, since I'll be on my phone most of the time until then, and writing out lengthy posts on the mobile is always a pain in the neck. So do feel free to take your time if you decide to make another reply. There's no rush as far as I'm concerned.

Well then since it's come to this, I decided i can't stretch this on for much longer so this is gonna be my final post on the matter. I make this a conclusion CAV-style

Not necessarily. Even if we exclude the moon feat entirely, which is really the only one we've been discussing that doesn't apply to Naruto from The Last, his superior showings can be found towards the end of the manga either way.

Yes, but not in terms of durability and maybe DC. Before the moon feat in the Last, Naruto didn't have a single quantifiable durability feat that was above large country level. So if we exclude feats from the Last, chances of him getting one-shotted would increase. Also he punched through an attack that cut the moon in half in a weaker form, giving him a high-end continental striking feat. (It should be noted that Saitama is still superior in the striking class however).

This was due to the force of Saitama's best punch cleaving through Boros' Roar Cannon. In Naruto's case, he merely focused his energy into his arm and basically ran through the Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosion; not throwing a punch until after he reached Toneri's position. I'm not sure how you can come to the conclusion that Saitama, while using his most powerful attack in the entire series, was superior to Naruto when the latter not only tanked the very same technique the fist time it was used and sustained virtually no damage at all, but countered it without using any of his best techniques.

It is superior because Naruto was giving it his all, there was nothing to indicate in the slightest he was holding back, and that is also the most powerful physical strike he's ever delivered in the franchise. Saitama, on the other hand, was confirmed to be holding back significantly the entire fight, by none other than the person he was fighting:

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Moreover, my point earlier still stands on which attack was more powerful due to the physics behind it. Saitama stood there and delivered a punch, the weight behind the punch so powerful that the shock wave not only completely diffused the beam, but had enough force to crack the gravity sphere on Boros' ship (the ship survived the same barrage it used to wipe out A-city, and it also didn't go down when Saitama returned from from space with the impact of a small meteor due to his speed) and then it went to split the atmosphere over the curvature of the planet and beyond. Naruto wouldn't have overcame Toneri's attack if it wasn't for the fact that he ran through it. Unlike saitama, who's punch travelled through the Beam and killed Boros, naruto couldn't have delivered a punch so powerful it shattered the sword itself and defeated toneri. In fact, he needed another strike of equal power to do the latter.

DC, or destructive capacity, relates to how much destruction or environmental damage a character can cause. In that aspect, Naruto's feats are undoubtedly superior by several magnitudes, as he's shown the ability to wipe out multiple meteors rather effortlessly, and the mere fragments from said meteors were shown to be much larger than mountain ranges:

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To accurately determine the scale of Naruto's attacks even further, we can compare the explosion to Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o, which is already a mountain-sized construct due to the fact that it's comparable to Kurama - the same beast that's shown to be roughly the size of one as well:

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However, Sasuke's Susano'o was basically unnoticeable next to the blast radius of Naruto's attack:

Sasuke is the little dot on the right inside the red square flying past a broken fragment of one of the meteors (left side).
Sasuke is the little dot on the right inside the red square flying past a broken fragment of one of the meteors (left side).

Keep in mind, Naruto one-shotted each and every one of these meteors - his attack absolutely dwarfing them:

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Yeah scaling is nice and all, and it's impressive how the size of Naruto's blasts dwarf mountain ranges entirely. Except, I fail to see how any of the scans you posted of Naruto's strongest attacks can destroy not just mountain ranges, but every mountain, island, peninsula, country, continent, tectonic plate, river, lake bed and ocean on the planet. In other words, completely destroy the planet's surface.

All those scans are naruto performing country level feats. But those feats took place in the Frost country and that country itself is incredibly small compared to even the nations in the Naruto world:

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For all intensive purposes, I see no reason why we can't equate the size of the super continents in both worlds, so I will do so, because the relatively look even from space (Naruto continent is slightly larger)

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Going off of that, the frost country (red x) is slightly smaller than Z-City

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which that meteor was stated to be able to wipe out by scans you yourself later posted. So yeah, naruto destroying all of them is cool, but that meteor Saitama destroyed had been drifting from outer space, madara just picked up his meteors to the upper atmosphere.

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Physics dictates that because it was farther away, the OPM meteor had more momentum by the time it entered Earth's atmosphere, which means more power.

By logic, the meteor Saitama one-shotted was more potent than all of madara's combined

Continental meteor? What actual proof do you have to substantiate such a claim? Because other than a map, which to my knowledge,

The size of the cities in one punch man are as large as countries. One of them in the middle is the size of China

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Genos stated the meteor to wipe out Z-city as well as the surrounding cities, which is easily continental

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making it non-canon to the manga and webcomic,

No, the country sized city thing is found the the manga as well, making it canon

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As you can see, the countries in the verse are all made up of city blocks. There are no separate landmasses, extended mountain ranges, and valleys on the continent. Every county sized area is pure city block (concrete jungle)

there is absolutely no evidence backing this up.

Except the statements and scaling from the scans I posted

Hell, basic logic would dictate that the meteor was nowhere close to continental, seeing as how regular people were trying to escape the city even though there were only minutes left until impact... Anyone who understands that they're living in a city the size of a country would be able to comprehend how futile it would be to even try and escape:

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Which doesn't disprove anything at all. It only shows that humanity is stupid, and it doesn't serve to downplay the fact that the OPM meteor was potentially more powerful than all the ones that Madara used

Additionally, we see Beefcake, a giant from one of the first chapters in the manga, wipe out an entire city, according to his brother, with nothing but a wave of his arm, yet, interestingly enough, it only ends up killing thousands of people at best:

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I fail to see the relevance any of this has to the meteor Saitama destroyed

Smaller cities generally have a population of anywhere from 100,000 to 300,000 people, while larger cities will have over 300,000 to 1,000,000 people living in them. So, there are only thousands of people living in a city comparable to that of a decent sized country, at least according to the map in the anime? That doesn't sound very logical at all, unless we assume these cities are similar in size to the smallest countries in the world, which would mean destroying one is a very unimpressive feat.

Are you seriously using population size to determine the magnitude landmass? Really? By that logic California is larger than Canada in landmass size size because it has a bigger population...

It's also worth mentioning that Beefcake completely annihilated B-city after falling on it:

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In this very same scan, there are a couple of clues pointing suggesting the city isn't very large at all. Beefcake wiping it out just by falling down on it is one obvious indicator. Another can be seen by taking a look at the surrounding mountains and comparing them to the amount of room Beefcake and the city take up.

that would be inconsistent scaling, but Naruto is just as guilty in that regard

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And it still fails to disprove the meteor feat. So that entire thing was a detour

Don't even get me started on License-less Rider traveling from city to city in such a short amount of time on his bicycle.

A. You don't know the exact amount of time it took

B. You don't know the specific geography of the city or the possible routes he took

c. If nothing else it would be an inconsistent feat for Rider's speed

Dragon level disaster simply means multiple cities would be in danger from the imminent threat. Nothing even remotely implies that meteor would be continental in any way, shape, or form.

A threat that solidified the fact that it wasn't a hyperbole. Even if the meteor wasn't a continent buster, it's still continent level, you don't have to bust something to be that level. So my point still stands, as that would be above Madara's meteors

Naruto wouldn't need to destroy a meteor that could bust a continent for his feat to be considered greater in the first place, since there was never any sort of indication that the meteor Saitama destroyed was a continent buster.

Now you're simply denying, because I prove multiple indications of it, most notably Genos' statements, which in no way could have been a hyperbole giving the dire context of the situation

A meteor large enough to bust a small continent would easily wipe out life on the planet and damage it greatly. Hell, a meteor that's about 50-60 miles wide would accomplish that much. Even a 7-8 mile-wide meteor would result in the death of billions. In short, a continent busting meteor would easily fall under God level disaster, and based on the information provided above, there's little reason to assume destroying a few cities in the OPM verse equates to a continental level feat simply because of a map in the anime that provides little insight into the size of the these cities, while the manga itself contradicts the idea of them being as large as you claim numerous times. Naruto's busting multiple meteors that were created by uplifting the Frost Country is quanfitiably superior to Saitama's in every conceivable way. Especially since tiny fragments from these meteors were dwarfing entire mountain ranges.

As I've said before, let's assume you're right. Even if the feat is greater, have you completely forgotten that Saitama was holding back? And that that was not a serious punch:? And that he was not bloodlusted? Everything up until this point has been me calculating saitama's power at the bare minimum, in order not to wank. And remember I said "I see no reason why Saitama couldn't replicate naruto's feat, but on a much grander scale". So i might concede that Naruto's meteor busting was greater than Saitama's but have you forgotten the grand scheme of things? The whole reason this has started?

Saitama punched through a beam capable of deleting the surface of the earth. A single serious punch would leave the planet looking like this:

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Saitama punched through a beam that could do that, making him multi-continental+ with single blows while bloodlusted. not once, and not a single time have you proved during the course of this entire debate that Naruto has more DC than a fully serious Saitama, who can spam such attacks. And frankly you can't because in terms of DC Naruto is continental at best, so nowhere near close

Which still doesn't measure up in terms of destruction.

Except it does

A physical strike that can repel an energy attack may have more force, but that doesn't necessarily mean it will cause more environmental damage, since energy dispersed from a punch is far more concentrated.

This makes no sense at all. If the attack has more force than there's no way it wouldn't cause more damage, especially considering the attack overpowered it, meaning it's far more destructive.

Splitting a cloud formation is also far less impressive than vaporizing massive meteors when even their fragments would make mountain ranges look insignificant, and mountains can weigh up to billions of tons. There are jets in real life that will part the clouds simply by moving fast; they're just made up of water.

And in turn, vaporizing "massive meteors when even their fragments would make mountain ranges look insignificant" pales in comparison to destroying a planets entire crust. It doesn't even begin to hold a candle really. So fodderizing said beam while holding back is above anything in the verse by bar kaguya.

And as I refuted above, the meteor Saitama destroyed was quantifiably inferior to even a single Chibaku Tensei meteor Madara dropped.

You're basing that off of absolutely nothing. Not only that, it survived metal knights missile's and Genos' strongest incinerator blast, when weaker versions of Genos could one partially oneshot mountains

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There is insufficient evidence from the manga suggesting it's anywhere close to continental. While Naruto used one of his better attacks, it still doesn't change the fact that he blew them all away without any problems, and wasn't fatigued in the slightest afterwards.

That is irrelevant anyways because Saitama can spam multi-continental punches and fodderize all of naruto's attacks, as well as decimate him entirely

Rasenshuriken creates a vortex of microscopic wind blades that cut every cell in the body. Being able to withstand a powerful explosion doesn't grant you resistance to this type of attack. Tsunade's description compares it to a poison rather than a standard attack:

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Meaning, if Saitama gets tagged by one, it's going to damage the cells in his body, since he's never demonstrated any resistance to a cellular level attack before.

yeah, a shockwave from even a casual punch can repel that

While it can certainly be reflected by a shockwave from one of Saitama's more powerful strikes, Naruto can just as easily catch him off guard from behind using a barrage of clones as a distraction, or even have one or two of his clones hold Saitama in place while the real Naruto throws the attack.

I really don't see that happening. In fact, it'd be better for Saitama if all the clones gathered in one spot, because then he can take them all out in one fell swoop. The attacks have a continetal range like I said earlier, so naruto isn't gonna "dodge" it. His best bet is to counter all of saitama's punches, but he'll just end up like Boros

In all honesty, Naruto has shown the ability to jump from the moon to Earth's proximity relatively quickly when he saved Toneri,

Imma have to ask you to provide some scans for this, And then calc the speed and distance it took.

and I could just as easily argue that Boros would have defeated Saitama with that very same kick had he not been fortunate enough to land on the moon. Saitama has a knack for standing still and trying to tank attacks after all, while Naruto doesn't usually fight like that.

Too bad he's not in-character in this fight, he's bloodlusted/morals off meaning he goes for the kill immeadiately, meaning he spams multi-contintal punches and kills naruto as soon as the fight starts

It actually does matter, especially when Saitama can easily be caught from behind by one of them. Strategical thinking play a big part in this battle, seeing as Naruto has 20 minutes of preparation before the fight even takes place, and Saitama isn't exactly a strategical thinker himself.

I admit Saitama isn't the most strategical thinker in battle. Naruto isn't going to overcome the sheer difference in power though

We don't even know how long it took Saitama to make it back to Earth,

yes we do...

and that feat was accomplished under special circumstances. For starters, the moon's weaker gravity undoubtedly aided him, and considering the fact that there is no resistance in the vacuum of space, nothing is going to slow him down significantly once he escapes the moon's gravitational pull, which happens to be much weaker than Earth's. And the only way I could even see that being a possibility is if the moon is visible in the sky. If Saitama just jumps randomly into space, he's liable to kill himself. Furthermore, leaping somewhere else on the planet, assuming he could actually do this, would result in an immediate loss due to self-bfr. Furthermore, we're talking about a character who needed some time to travel from Z-City to J-City while running at full speed:

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Self bfr isn't a thing when he can leap right back

And I'm pretty sure that wasn't Saitama's full speed... and you know that. Saitama has displayed sub-relativistic travel speeds and relativistic combats speeds so using that to downplay how fast he could move is beneath you when you know he's clearly faster

Sasuke has never once fodderized more than a handful of Naruto's clones with taijutsu. In part one, he was able to defeat a few of them during their rooftop battle, but the clones ended up catching him with an Uzumaki Barrage - forcing Sasuke to counter with a Katon. Sasuke is more skilled in Taijutsu than either Naruto or Saitama anyway - having shown better H2H technique than either of them. Besides, current Naruto can produce far more clones than he was able to during the events of part 1 and when they're using Kurama's avatar, they can survive blows from a Bijuu-Chakra-enhanced Susano'o:

Except, in valley of the End he defeated all of them with Taijutsu and killed the last remaining 3 with kagutsuchi because he was fed up

Come to think of it, Naruto has 20 minutes of preparation here, so he can easily have one of his clones hide in the distance and accumulate all the Natural Energy above ground, and since Naruto will also have the Bijuu Chakra at his disposal unlike he did during the fight with Sasuke, that's just adding icing on the cake. Preparation is really what's sealing the deal here. I would normally say the battle could go either way depending on the circumstance, but Naruto has too many ways to win with that much preparation.

Naruto has never used preparation efficiently for a fight by himself. he only time he's used prep at all was after his training at Mount Myoboku with the toads, but not only did it take longer than 20 minutes to set up, he had the aid of the toads to inform him on how he could defeat pain

Feats from the Last aren't even needed here, because as I stated before, his better feats, like contributing half the energy needed to rip a moon-sized chunk out of the planet and bind it together with gravity,

Which is a useless feat because he was amped and can't use it offensively here, or anywhere else ever again for that matter

then launch it into orbit is far more impressive. As for Toneri's feats, it's clearly in the lower end of moon level (since Toneri merely sliced through it without overcoming its binding energy) like the author depicted. Unless there's some concrete evidence you can show proving without a doubt that the moon was hollow enough to make the feat considerably less impressive than it would normally be, then I personally don't see why it should be blatantly disregarded altogether. The burden of proof falls on you if you're trying to argue that the moon was hollow enough to make much of a difference.

Even if the moon was 100% solid the feat would still be large contintal in power. So it doesn't outweigh Saitama's power at all

Okay, what does this prove again? If the crust was partially hollowed out, and we see Naruto and Kurama fall through a thin layer of the crust that leads to the surface of the moon, that somehow disproves the notion of them fighting in a hollowed out portion of the crust when it can extend 63 miles deep? How does that make any sense? Lol

There's no way you can visually determine the thickness of the crust from the shots in the movie. And it makes no sense to quate the 2 when the moon was terraformed so we don't even know if the crust is as thick as ours

The images you posted only shows Toneri's sword cutting through a small section of the moon that was hollow. We don't see it cut through the entire thing, so basing a hollow moon argument off of that is incredibly faulty.

Except it cut the entire moon in half, and every match cut frame depicting it's course through the moon, never once showing solid portions

That's a different discussion entirely. We're talking about your evidence, or lack thereof, that Saitama is a planet buster. Punching away a surface wiping attack is no indication of planet busting power--simple as that.

It comes down to whether or not you believe he's a planet buster, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this

And Naruto providing half the energy needed to create a moon requires far more energy than repelling Boros' Roar Cannon.

which is a statement pulled out of nowhere, because that's completely unquantifiable. I felt dumb going to google typing up "how much energy does it take to create half a moon with chibaku tensei" We sometimes forget we're debating fictional characters

Since Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is classified as an offensive technique, it merely shows Naruto is capable of putting forth more energy into his attacks than Saitama. And before you say Six Paths Chibaku Tensei was a one-time technique, it's completely irrelevant in the sense that it wouldn't change the amount of energy Naruto himself supplied, i.e., half the energy needed to be considered higher-end moon level.

Why would the amount of energy naruto supplied matter when the energy needed to perform the feat matter when there's no evidence to suggest he can use it in different ways other than the one shown?

...You need to grasp the context of my statement before jumping to conclusions. First off, I didn't not say there was no difference between not using your full power and using your full power. That's a huge misinterpretation on your part... What I am saying is that even if we assume Saitama has what it takes to overcome the GBE of our moon, nevermind the Earth, even if he was using his full power, given the massive difference between surface wiping and moon busting.

The difference doesn't matter, naruto is nowhere near close to moon buster. Saitama is still above him in DC by feats

This is a flawed argument. Just because I acknowledge that Naruto isn't a moon buster by feats doesn't mean I'm going to drop any argument pertaining to his DC being superior by feats, which it definitely is.

"definitely is".... in that case i'd like to see scans of naruto busting every continent on earth, or repelling an attack capable of doing so

I don't acknowledge Saitama being anywhere close to a moon buster either, since his best feat to date is repelling a surface wiping attack. Whether Saitama gets better feats in the future has no bearing on our current debate.

But it will prove Saitama to be the stronger character so I'll get the bragging rights :P

As of right now, his DC feats are splitting a few clouds,

Please stop saying this is if the buster canon never happened

vastly unimpressive compared to Naruto's,

yea I need to see those multi-continent level scans

and plowing through a canyon with the shockwave from one of his punches, also inferior to Naruto's DC feats.

In what way

Saitama deflected it with his most powerful attack shown to date.

While holding back significantly

Naruto simply focused Chakra into his arm and ran through the Golden Wheel Explosion.

Saitama's regular serious punch wouldn't require that. he would just stand there, blow through the golden wheel, and kill Toneri all in one-shot. And guess what? he has actual feats proving that

And since this isn't even Naruto's most impressive feat, it doesn't matter either way.

Naruto's most impressive feat still isn't more powerful than Roar canon in DC

The logic doesn't work against me in this case, and I'll explain why below.

This is speculation at best. Even if Boros fires his Roar Cannon from point blank range at the ground, there's no guarantee that it would even reach the core, definitely no reason to assume it would be destroyed even if it did. In real life, I'm not even sure that destroying the core would result in a a chain reaction that causes the planet to explode like what happened to Namek in DB. The more I think about it, that doesn't even make any sense. Basically, this is like me speculating what would happen if Naruto fired his most powerful energy attacks at the core and it was destroyed. Would that in-turn make him a planet buster?

If it resulted in Naruto destroying the planet then obviously. But that wouldn't matter, because the roar-canon-point-blank-core argument was just setting up my arguemnt for serious punch being more powerful

Saitama is morals off, which means he doesn't mind killing Naruto. That doesn't automatically mean every single punch he throws is going to be equivalent to that of his most serious attack.

When you engage in a fight, you're serious. Every single punch you throw you throw it seriously. I hope you know there's a difference between serious and blood-lusted. If saitama is fighting seriously, every single attack he performs will be serious. So every single punch he throws in this battle with be multi-continental+, so spamming them is quite logically possible

We don't even know if Boros or Saitama could spam those type of attacks.

Saitama could

Dishing out that much energy repeatedly is going to leave you drained fast,

Another groundless claim, especially since you don't know what it takes to drain Saitama's stamina. You asserted your own opinion into this matter

and since neither have shown the reserves needed to do so,

Saitama hasn't shown his upper limits to his reserves at all so the fact that you're restraining him to a few serious punches is ridiculous

there's no reason to assume they can or would. Especially not Boros, since he literally releases all of his energy to use Roar Cannon. And if they spammed those kind of attacks, how long would it take to completely destroy the Earth? There are too many variables and assumptions that you're putting into this argument. Even if Saitama rained down serious punches with surface wiping potency, it doesn't mean the DC or AoE caused by them would be enough to bust a planet. And surface wiping+ doesn't begin to scratch the surface of planet busting power. This is like saying Naruto could eventually bust the planet with high-potency attacks that do not cause much destruction simply because he has supplied half the energy needed to create a moon sized satellite and bind it together in the past. Consecutive serious punches is nothing but a fanfiction of yours for now. This move doesn't exist in the manga and has never been used once, nor is there any common putting it on the level of planet busting... Saitama doesn't have the durability feats needed to withstand multiple high powered attacks from Naruto either. This is where reaction speed comes into play, and Naruto is undoubtedly superior in that category due to Sage Sensing and Danger Sensing.

I guess this is true, but just because i named the attack makes it seem like i made it up. tell me, what is stopping him from spamming serious punches?

What did you debunk, exactly? If you're referring to the link you provided that debunks the databook statement being interpreted as planet busting, then I completely agree. If you're talking about Boros being able to bust a planet by theoretically spamming Roar Cannons, I don't agree, because there's nothing factual to support it.

I used to consider Boros a planet buster, but now i don't, and I don't really need to. And also, like i said, the roar cannon was to set up my main, prevaling question. What's stopping Saitama from overcoming all of Naruto's attacks with punches? Saitama has shown the capability to spam regular punches, so doing the same thing while serious isn't a stretch at all

You didn't use my logic with that argument above. It relies heavily on assumptions. The fact is, Saitama's best feat is nowhere close to moon busting, while one of the statements you have shown are obviously figurative (see Genkai and Yusuke example), and the other isn't even a concrete yes or no.

neither is naruto's... naruto's best DC is still continental. The other part of the post is true

Hmm, I've heard this rumor before, but I can't seem to find the interview. You wouldn't happen to have it, would you?

Sadly I can not. But I remember seeing the first mention of it on a japanese forum, then asking people about it. The answers varied but that seemed to be consesnsus. Then a dude posted a link to it but it was a few months ago. i don't know if you're gonna take my words to be the truth anyways

...I understand Toneri's attack never overcame the Moon's GBE. We were discussing an entirely different feat if you recall (the one where Naruto contributed half the energy needed to create a moon).

No, that's precisely what you've been doing by claiming that Boros and Saitama are potential planet busters by spamming their most powerful attacks, which relies on the assumption that they could even do such a thing without tiring out. As for Toneri's feat, you're the one who is arguing that the moon is hollow. The "proof" you posted so far doesn't indicate enough of it was hollow enough to minimize the feat in any way.

Boros probably couldn't, there's nothing to disprove Saitama could. And like i said, even if it was solid the feat would still be large continental anyway. Possibly multi-contintal

Once again, you're responding to a completely separate argument here. Look back through the conversation and you'll see that we were talking about Naruto supplying half the amount of energy required to make a moon, thereby, making him half moon level, which is vastly superior to surface wiping.

By what measurements is it superior

Prove it. He doesn't shown the durability feats needed to tank an attack like that by just sitting there and taking its full force head on.

He doesn't need to tank it if he can just counter it

This is beside the point. Deflecting an attack isn't the same thing as tanking one.

I'm waiting for better durability feats for Saitama. I already conceded long ago naruto was superior in that regards so I see no point in continuing

They fought for about 3 days, if you include the fact that Naruto and Sasuke didn't release the victims from Infinite Tsukuyomi until the beginning of day 4. If you remember, they still fought Madara, Kaguya and each other during the third day. Saitama's daily training method is far from impressive when compared to fighting a war and dishing out a portion of your energy to hundreds, if not thousands of soldiers. Genos even states that it's just a conventional training method:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Yes, but Saitama broke his limiters. And he did that every day for 3 years without rest. Naruto's stamina might be greater, but we've never seen Saitama exert effort even once

As for Boros sensing no limit to Saitama's power, that doesn't really mean much. Terms like that are often used in fiction. Even King Kai said the same thing about Goku, and we know for a fact that he tires out over time:

No Caption Provided

yea, nice try automatically equating DBZ logic OPm verses logic and calling it a day. 2 completely different universes don't automatically become the same because your argument demands it.

Yeah, he can certainly do that, but Naruto can always catch him off guard from behind, or hold him in place using one of his clones.

I can guarantee if any of Naruto's clones try to perform physical maneuvers they get oneshotted. And catch him off-gaurd from behind, how exactly?

I've already addressed how the moon feat was accomplished under special circumstances, and how jumping to another continent to avoid a Rasenshuriken would only result in loss by BFR, since there's no guarantee he would return to the battlefield when he jumps again.

How is there no guarantee lol he'll just repeat what he did an go back the same way

Well, Naruto has the reaction speed feats, along with two forms of sensing, to argue that Saitama would have a very difficult time landing a blow. When Naruto's is up close, he doesn't really need to rely on physical strikes anyway. He can always use a TSO staff to take one of Saitama's arm right off. It's not like Saitama would be aware of TSO's erasure effect and if he tries to punch it, that's GG.

What if he punches a TSB? Wouldn't it crack like a proved before? Unless the TSB has withstood multi-continental force then that's NLF on it's durability.

It won't help much if Naruto attacks him from all directions, including the air.

I fail to see how that would kill him. An omni-directional attack can be breached by blowing a hole through any area of it

Jumping from the Earth to the moon is actually far more difficult than jumping from the moon to Earth. And if tries to jump to a random location on the planet, who's to say he'll be able to make it back to the battle field quick enough to prevent a BFR. He's basically jumping blind in the sense that he wouldn't exactly know where he's going to end up.

He knew exactly where to jump and landed in the same spot after he was BFR'd, so returning won't be a problem

A move that doesn't exist lacks a basis to be considered planet level. You would first need to prove Saitama can dish out a barrage of his most powerful attacks without tiring out quickly. That is his trump card after all.

Considering he wasn't fatigued in any way after performing the feat, o anything other thing he did that arc, his stamina has shown to be at least capable of repeatedly performing serious strikes

There is no NLF being applied here in the first place. Whether they can shatter or not won't matter if Naruto tags him from up close or catches him off guard from behind using multiple clones. With 20 minutes of preparation, he can summon an army of toads thousands of clones, some of which can hide out and gather Natural Energy. There's also Ma and Pa's Frog Song that will put Saitama under a powerful Genjutsu. He would be too distracted with Naruto to even worry about a couple of screeching frogs, especially since he doesn't know what they're doing.

When i first made my case I failed to notice Naruto had prep, so i admit he could change the course of the battle depending how he uses it. But since when could he use genjutsu?

I mean, you did quote a year-and-a-half-old post of mine immediately afterwards. Saying something like "meanwhile, you've said this".

Sorry lol

I also agree that it can go either way, but looking at the OP again and seeing that Naruto has 20 minutes of prep time, I'm inclined to lean towards him at this point.

Probably in a few arcs he'll gain more feats that'll put him comfortable above Naruto. But I guess it hasn't happened yet so I can't use it

How was I right if you were just saying that the match can go either way and you could argue for Naruto yourself? Lol

I said it could go either way depending on who was debating, but you did a hell of a job

Based on what Saitama has shown so far, the arguments for Naruto are definitely understandable, just like the arguments for Saitama are given his ridiculously OP physical attacks. When and if he does get more feats, then I'll be inclined to agree with you.

Saitama doesn't really have an answer to the clones and their versatility, so I could definitely see where you're coming from

I appreciate the praise, bro. You definitely made some good points yourself. :)

Yeah, I'll let you know about that. I've never really been into CaVs too much--haven't participated in one during my time on this site--but maybe I'll be down for one in the near future.

nothing more satisfying than two debaters who understand each other. Anyways, this was it for me, so good luck fam

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#525 Edited by HigherPower (12327 posts) - - Show Bio

@sayo786 Here is the reason your last thread was locked. And if you want to state who you think wins, do it here.

I made a pretty good case for Saitama, (my arguments with @thedarkpaladin starts on page 10, you can start readin from post #453).

My advice is don't make threads because you are salty. Me and Paladin argued it CAV style starting page 11 so it'll be easy to follow.

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#526 Posted by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

Naruto handily.

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#527 Posted by Asurakj (992 posts) - - Show Bio

Naruto

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#528 Posted by Sayo786 (562 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan: thanks for the tag.

Saitama stomps naruto. Massively faster and has actual on panel speed feats to indicate ftl. Unlike naurot wankers going by that lightfang logix which has been proved that naruto didnt react to it, he dodged it since it was a slash attack and not a pierce attack. Also naruto has pre cog so it makes perfect sense. Saitama destroyed a bring with no effort which in turn destroyed a being in three times less powered up state who had 12 trillion lives(12000 billion. Human population is 8 billion.) These merged into one being and even if you say that each of them was a fodder, it still makes the merged being strong.

Even if one life could destroy one meter of area(lowballing to the max), use your brain and it makes sense that the merged being is a great multi continental++ being.

A simple demon level monster is a city to multi city buster and dragon levels reach continental. Saitama whupped a god level monster who had perfect hand to hand skills along with doomsday like adaptability and evolution. This one also had his limiter broken and legit tried to push him so far until he gave up because he just couldnt touch saitama no matter how strong, fast he evolved further.

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#529 Posted by vintage_spiderman (6541 posts) - - Show Bio

You miss me?

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#530 Posted by deactivated-5ac4e862bd47b (3700 posts) - - Show Bio
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#531 Posted by vintage_spiderman (6541 posts) - - Show Bio
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#532 Posted by sladerulez (10000 posts) - - Show Bio

Saitama via raw power

Naruto via creativity with versatile hax

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#533 Posted by Zuriel-el (3023 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sayo786:

which god level did saitama beat.

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#534 Posted by Sayo786 (562 posts) - - Show Bio

@zuriel-el: you clearly do not read webtoon. He beat garou. God level monster. Garou whupped the strongest dragon level demon before powering up three times further and reaching a state where he evolves rapidly to overcome his opponent. Saitama destroyed him while chilling. People even say that saitama held back even more against garou than he did against boros as saitama pitied garou and knew he was a human.

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#535 Edited by vintage_spiderman (6541 posts) - - Show Bio

@zuriel-el: Lord Boros is all I can recall at the moment can't remember Garou's rank/threat tier regardless when you put things in prospective ignoring the flashiness and hype of the fight Boros isn't even above Toneri from my understanding of both combatants abilities.

Edit: apparently god level lol

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#537 Edited by deactivated-5ac4e862bd47b (3700 posts) - - Show Bio

@sayo786 said:

What makes me laugh is how people clearly know that saitama is supposed to beat up their favourite heroes. His whole show is about that. He will eventually reach a comfortable multi planet soon as ONE has foreshadowed an enemy above disaster level god.

I wonder how long are naruto wankers going to keep pulling our that "by feats" card. Naruto's hax isn't even on dark schneiders level as you people are making it out to be. He won't be able to overcome such a retardedly huge difference in stats.

Noone even said that, youre just salty mate.

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#538 Edited by vintage_spiderman (6541 posts) - - Show Bio

@sayo786: You don't need dark schneider level hax to beat Saitama are you insane or completely fruit loops. Pick one?

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#539 Posted by Sayo786 (562 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthsenju: oh im just waiting for those who are even arguing naruto stands a chance when he gets wounded from a sword. I wonder why wasnt the valley of end destroyed when naruto and sasuke started punching each other since you know... naruto has moon crater punches with only shockwaves right.

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#540 Edited by vintage_spiderman (6541 posts) - - Show Bio

@sayo786: They were "utterly" to absurd degrees drained of chakra(you know the one of the only things that separates ninjas in Naruto from people in real life...so of course stats will drop drastically) he wouldn't be drained in this fight so why does that matter Mr. Lowball?

Lastly the same reason Trunks can hurt Frieza with a regular sword it's not the item but the individual wielding it at least in Japanese fiction specifically shonen.

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#541 Posted by Sayo786 (562 posts) - - Show Bio

@vintage_spiderman: i never meant that. It was to tell you that naruto does not posess any kind of superbly strong technique which would close the huge stat gap for him to betat someone as strong as saitama.

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#543 Posted by deactivated-5ac4e862bd47b (3700 posts) - - Show Bio

@sayo786 said:

@vintage_spiderman: Confirmed troll. Stop wanking your nardo dreams boy. So you are telling me that someone can cut saitama with a steel sword if they are strong enough to do that? Well saitama has teeth strong enough to bite swords in half. Naruto certainly does not.

You are failing to convince me that naruto even stands a tiny chance against saitama. He massively exceeds every single stat compared to naruto. He will just punch off all bijuu bombs and other DC jutsus which naruto will use. Your last arguement of tsb bypassing durability,well i think he is going to punch off tsb aswell or maybe even break them. No one has ever hit remotely as close to how hard saitama hits.

Saitama got hurt by a cat:

No Caption Provided

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#545 Posted by vintage_spiderman (6541 posts) - - Show Bio

@sayo786: Post a future Trunks vs Saitama thread on battle forums and find out...in due time you'll realize your Lord and savior isn't all he's hyped up to be buwahahahahahaha...

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#546 Posted by deactivated-5ac4e862bd47b (3700 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan:

Sorry are we meant to be voting, i thought this was a normal battle thread not a Cav.

In that case ill vote

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#547 Posted by Sayo786 (562 posts) - - Show Bio

@vintage_spiderman: lol what is your point with that? If trunks can slash saitama into pieces with his sword then he can slice nardo with his finger nails. Not a good logic. All of this wank started with that useless movie feat. There was NO moon busting. Slicing a coconug is far easier than blowing it into pieces like a grenade. Naruto is nowhere moon level in either DC or Durability. Close to moon level? Yes. Close to a legit moon busting/tanking? Hell no.

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#548 Edited by vintage_spiderman (6541 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_vulcan: Sadly I cannot I despise most of OPM cast and with all my being I cannot fight the simple fact I simply ooze bias CONSTANTLY same as Dj Ak oozes corniness and Joe Budden toxic unadulterated rage!

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#549 Edited by vintage_spiderman (6541 posts) - - Show Bio

@sayo786: Funny you said no one with just a sword could harm him so that's why I brought up that character let us not play dumb now that our fav(your fav) is under the figurative reticle

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#550 Posted by Zuriel-el (3023 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sayo786:

did garou burst anything of note?