Sailors and gods vs DBS god tier team

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kasya_carey

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#1 kasya_carey  Online
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VS

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Rules

Full Power/Peak

Win by any means

Bloodlusted

Anime/Manga feats

Location: Indestructive void

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GangOrca

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...Just get Hades out of here, dude. 100 threads of Hades stomping DBS should've given you the hint by now.

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Floridaman29

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SeiyaSaiyaJin

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Remove Pegasus Seiya & Hades from here. There's like 14 Years worth of Saint Seiya vs DB threads. & Sailor Moon should solo.

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CaoCao

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You know this is spite, when you put Saint Seiya Top and God Tiers against Dragonball. Sailors are debatable.

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Harumi2Zoldyck

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DBS gets stomped hard, Beerus is the only one who even has a chance.

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Dathanatus

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#8 Dathanatus  Online

I feel lowkey sorry for the DB team, they keep getting matched up with SS characters and inevitably get stomped.

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gelato_exotic

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#9  Edited By gelato_exotic

Hades obviously solos.

Sailor Scouts get molested and bukkaked by literally anyone from DB or SS here, and Vegeta Spirit Fissions Athena's Blood from Seiya and makes him lose his Kamui (IK his God Cloth technically isn't a Kamui but it's a cooler name so idc) and lets Beerus seal him if Hakai doesn't work.

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Dathanatus

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#10  Edited By Dathanatus  Online

@gelato_exotic: Not happening. Vegeta and Beerus ain't gonna tag Seiya anytime soon for that to happen . Not only that I very much doubt Spirit fission works like that.

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gelato_exotic

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#11  Edited By gelato_exotic

@dathanatus: Spirit Fission has shown to be able to undo any sort of powers or existence obtained through external means, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to separate Athena's Blood from Seiya's Kamui. It's able to separate both physical means such as Fusion/Absorption and energy. In the last chapter Vegeta demonstrated Spirit Fission being able to take one's own energy too, and would arguably be able to drain Seiya's own Cosmo even.

Seiya's best speed standing himself is probably scaling to being able to react to Thanatos' blasts which were able to cross either the HD/Universe to kill Seika, or just crossing the Hyperdimension himself, which with both manga/anime feats scaling DBS team here is definitely relative and on par with. Seiya is a complete brick though compared to his fellow Gold Saints tbh, but hey, not that some of the DBS team isn't either lmao.

I'm aware of him probably scaling to Shura's miracle from GA considering characters like Saga who scale below Seiya were able to catch Excalibur, but personally I find that feat as unquantifiable besides the fact that it's faster than Shura's previous feat of reacting to AP Aiolos while he was in the Underworld. Not a fan of fan calcs for either DB or SS, but the calcs for Shura's feat rely on cherrypicking single different theories on how it happened, and there's no way to prove a select theory applies to SS's cosmology.

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Naronu

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There are so many threads of Hades soloing DB, the creation of this thread is embarrassing.

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EcoBlitz

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@gelato_exotic: except the shura feat is something specifically scientific that has already been scientifically stated at a specific speed...

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gelato_exotic

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#14  Edited By gelato_exotic

@ecoblitz:

It's one theory about how the Universe expanded to 0.88 mm or some shit in a short amount of time, right? There's more than one theory about how fast and how much the Universe expanded which all differ (you can find dozens of articles on it with a simple Google search), and neither are any more valid than the other since they're all unproven theories, nor is there any proof for which one applies to SS's cosmology. I've read about theories that say it expanded to the size of the solar system rather than 0.88 mm which would put Shura's feat far faster at DuodecillionsxFTL for example, but once again there's no way to prove which one applies.

If SS ever had a statement alluding to which Big Bang inflation theory it's cosmology is based on, then you'd be able to use that select theory just fine since after all this is fiction, but there isn't and until there is it's unquantifiable besides being faster than Shura's previous feat of reacting to Anti Pope Aiolos attacks while he was in the Underworld to an unknown degree, which was like QuadrillionsxFTL with calcs, IIRC. Nothing more without unprovable headcanon.

Something that can be quantified for example, is the fact that both the SS Universe(s) and the DB Universe have evidence for being based upon the real world Universe, and thus theories such as the estimate of the Observable Universe being 93 Billion LY and containing billions to trillions of galaxies are usable when evaluating feats for both, while there is no evidence for such with SS's Big Bang inflation.

The fact stands that Alan Guth's theory is completely unproven in itself and holds no more weight than any other theories that have been proposed. Not to mention there's a vague timeframe dozens of seconds apart in the theory which yields entirely different results based on the timeframe used there's also no way to quantify which is the correct timeframe, so there is no "specific speed" for it like you've stated, unless you go with the whole highball lowball logic which is faulty in this scenario.

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EcoBlitz

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@gelato_exotic: no it’s the one who the universe expanded from a quark to the size of a marble in X amount of time. It has a calced speed. So should be valid imo

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gelato_exotic

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#16  Edited By gelato_exotic

@ecoblitz:

And I'm aware of that like I've already addressed bro, and so do multiple other theories on the Big Bang (having a stated expansion rate and speed), along with Alan Guth's one about it expanding to the size of 0.88 mm which is the same as the one your referring to I'm pretty sure, but I could be mistaken, feel free to send me a link or calc if you can find it if it's a different one.

There's no evidence that specific theory is the one that applies to SS, and when there's several other theories about the Big Bang Inflation, none of which are any more provable than the other, it becomes an even bigger gray area.

I'm not inherently saying it doesn't apply to SS whatsoever or that it isn't valid, just that there's no proof for it doing so or being valid either, and that all we can establish is that it's just faster than Shura's quadrillionsxFTL feat by a completely unquantifiable margin.

Similarly with the logic used behind the Big Bang Inflation feat for SS, the DB Universe could be said to be far larger than the Observable Universe using other theories on the real world Universe putting it massively above the size of 93 Billion LY, which some DB wankers do use to highball the speed feats, which is incorrect since nothing in DB has ever been presented to us to suggest there's anything more than the Observable Universe just like the real world where anything beyond the Observable Universe is just theory and speculation hence the theories can't be used to wank the size of the DB Universe unless we're presented evidence there's something beyond the Observable Universe and then can unproven theories be applied to it, since it's fiction.

Just like how in SS nothing has been presented to us to prove which theory applies to the Big Bang in its cosmology and how it happened besides the fact that it did, which has been explained by dozens of theories rather than just the one which is being cherrypicked here to calc the speed.

The fact that we're discussing a fictional anime/manga that mixes stuff like Buddhist, Greek, Roman, and Japanese mythological Lore with Primordial and Olympian Gods transcending one another and all types of shit also brings in the question about how we can apply real world theories to it without any sort of evidence that indicates that something is based on the real world (i.e. SS universes being similar to the real world one, but then also being shown to be operating in a multiverse cosmology, which is completely unproven and nothing but theory in the real world. Evidence is strongly needed before correlating real world theories to fiction because of stuff like this. which is what's missing here with Shura's feat).

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GangOrca

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Hades aside, I might see DBS team pulling it off if Vegeta's spirit fission works on them and if he goes straight for a blitz.

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Eredin12

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Without Hades DBS team wins

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Dathanatus

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#19  Edited By Dathanatus  Online

@gelato_exotic: So here's the thing. Shura's feat is not unquantifiable. We have a distance and a time given by the guy who came up with the theory and from there we can calculate that Shura hit the Septillion x FTL. There is no discussion to be had, it's just a fact. Since Seiya is >>>> Shura so he scales to that and is at least Septillions x FTL if not much faster.

Beerus downscales from Whis crossing the universe in hours and is as such quadrillions to quintillions x FTL. In other words a freaking statue next to Seiya.

Your scenario is also extremely unlikely because Vegeta has no knowledge of Seiya and so has no way of knowing that his only way to not get his ass annihilated is to use Spirit Fission in the attosecond between the start of the fight and his death by a bloodlusted Seiya.

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gelato_exotic

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#20  Edited By gelato_exotic

@dathanatus:

So here's the thing. Shura's feat is not unquantifiable. We have a distance and a time given by the guy who came up with the theory and from there we can calculate that Shura hit the Septillion x FTL. There is no discussion to be had, it's just a fact. Since Seiya is >>>> Shura he scales to that and is at least Septillions x FTL if not much faster.

I'm well aware of how Seiya scales lol I've read a good portion of the series although not every spin-off. It is unquantifiable other than being faster than Shura's feat of reacting to Anti Pope Aiolo's cross Universal attacks at QuadrillionsxFTL by an unquantifiable margin.

I gave a detailed explanation to somebody else above, but I'll sum it up here again in case you didn't see it.

The theory being used to calc Excalibur is Septillions FTL is;

One out of dozens of theories proposed about the Big Bang Inflation, a single Google Search can find you several of them.

The theory, the one proposed by Alan Guth which you're referring to here, even in the real world, isn't proven whatsoever and isn't even that widely accepted, but neither is any other theory for it since this is such a speculative area in Science.

More importantly, there's no evidence that specific theory is the one that applies to SS and no statement alluding to such, and when there's several other theories about the Big Bang Inflation, none of which are any more provable than the other, it becomes an even bigger gray area, which is why I argue it to be unquantifiable aside from being faster than Shura's previous feats.

There's multiple theories, and there's one which you can apply which would put Shura at DuodecillionsxFTL (the one where the Universe expanded to Solar system Size rather than a marble), but the problem is there's no way to prove that's the specific theory that the SS cosomology is based on. All we know is the Big Bang happened, just like we theorize in the real world with many different theories rather than just Alan Guth's one, which is why it can't be credibly used to calc the feat unless SS ever implicates that the specific theory is what its cosmology is based upon.

Not to mention there's a vague timeframe dozens of seconds apart in the theory in question which yields entirely different results based on the timeframe used there's also no way to quantify which is the correct timeframe, so there is no "specific speed" for it like you've stated, unless you go with the whole highball lowball logic which is faulty in this scenario. There's calcs that put the speed at quadrillions, low quintillions, sextillions, like you mentioned septillions, and some even slower or faster which I can try to find if you'd like I tend to save this kind of stuff. But my point here is there's too much speculation involved.

If SS ever had a statement alluding to which specific Big Bang inflation theory it's cosmology is based on and it was Alan Guth;s one, then you'd be able to use that select theory just fine since after all this is fiction. Nothing more without unprovable headcanon and assumptions,

And with the logic used behind the Big Bang Inflation feat for Excalibur, the DB Universe could be argued to be far larger than the Observable Universe using other theories on the real world Universe putting it massively above the size of known 93 Billion LY, which some DB wankers do use to wank the speed feats, but however that's wrong since nothing in DB has ever been presented to us to suggest which theory/speculation the unknowns of the Universe follows, other than the Observable Universe. ust like the real world where anything beyond the Observable Universe is just theory nd speculation hence the theories can't be used to wank the size of the DB Universe unless we're presented evidence there's something beyond the Observable Universe in DB and then can unproven theories be applied to it, since it's fiction.

^^Just like how in SS nothing has been presented to us to prove which theory applies to the Big Bang in its cosmology and how it happened besides the fact that it did, which has been explained by dozens of theories rather than just the one which is being cherrypicked here to calc the speed.

Something that is quantifiable for example, is the fact that both the SS Universe(s) and the DB Universe have evidence and statements for being based on the real Universe, and so theories such as the estimate of the Observable Universe being 93 Billion LY and containing billions to trillions of galaxies are usable when evaluating feats for both, while there is no evidence for such with SS's Big Bang inflation.

Sorry for such a wall text here XD, but I mean, there's no really scans to post in this particular part since we both seem to be aware of the gist of the feat and the context around it.

Beerus downscales from Whis crossing the universe in hours and is as such quadrillions to quintillions x FTL. In other words a freaking statue next to Seiya.

Whis hasn't ever taken hours to cross the Universe as far as I remember and has done it far faster, his best feat is flying from U7 to U10 in like 10 minutes in the episode where Zamasu gets lolhakaied, IIRC. But it doesn't matter, since Beerus doesn't scale to Whis anyways , since Whis never uses his full speed during flight and varies extremely lol which I can give examples for lol.

But Beerus does scale to other characters like Godku, Hit, Champa and their MFTL feats in that range, and his own feats that are relative to quadrillions to quintillionsxFTL (namely him reacting to and nullifying the Universe busting energy ball in episode 13 between him and Goku mid detonation as it began to expand already, which no one at that specific scene reacted to and even Goku got blitzed by it and was left dumbfounded) and could be faster if you scaled him to Dyspo's Light Bullet and Super High Speed mode although we can discuss that later,

With quantifiable speed calcing, Seiya with his Hyperdimension feat and reacting to Thanatos scaling and most of the team here is IMO frankly pretty relative to each other, enough to where neither can statue nor blitz the other team (talking about Seiya and DB, Hades shouldn't be here since he'd solo easily and the Sailors because they'd get stomped by anyone here too easily)

Your scenario is also extremely unlikely because Vegeta has no knowledge of Seiya and so has no way of knowing that his only way to not get his ass annihilated is to use Spirit Fission in the attosecond between the start of the fight and his death by a bloodlusted Seiya.

Vegeta has pretty honed energy sensing after his training on Yardrat, I'm sure he could discern Athena's energy from her blood on Seiya's Kamui and think to try and use Spirit Fission in a bloodlusted scenario. Cosmo and Ki are pretty fundamentally parallels tbh, both being based on prana from Buddhism and working very similarly.

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LordSpeedwagon

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#21  Edited By LordSpeedwagon

Team Seiya blitzes here. Whis need his scepter to travel across the universe, while the legendary bronze saints crossed billions of galaxies within 5 minuten, Gold Saints crossing universes within a moment in ep g + attacking across the universes, lower gods like Thanatos attacking across the dimension, gods like Athena crossed different space time continuums, history, etc. within a moment. Fodder like the moon witch crossed 10.000 lightyears within a short timeframe back to Chronos, and both Saints that are whiped by Chronos in different time-space came back in a few minutes. Dragonball is outspeeded here by far, especially since no one from that team scales to Whis his speed. His own speed without scepter is even more questionable, there aren´t really comparable speed feats to Saint Seiya without this.

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gelato_exotic

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#22  Edited By gelato_exotic

@lordspeedwagon:

Team Seiya blitzes here. Whis need his scepter to travel across the universe

Actually, considering both manga and anime feats are being used here, the Angels and GoDs while suppressed have crossed Universal distances without the use of the staff.

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In this scene, Vados never activates her staff, and Champa was never holding her frm behind (indicating he wasn't flying with her and his own and that the Staff was never active like the shown already shows) and was in front of her, and they both fly to the Kaioshin Realm in a single panel. To get a gist on this, the Kaioshin Realm is a realm 1/10 the size of the Macrocosm that sits orbits outside of the Universe and in itself would have radius of billions of LY, let alone the fact Champa and Vados were somewhere in the Universe when they crossed this far PLUS the distance to the center of the Kai realm where Elder Kai and Shin were situated.

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while the legendary bronze saints crossed billions of galaxies within 5 minuten, Gold Saints crossing universes within a moment in ep g + attacking across the universes, lower gods like Thanatos attacking across the dimension

Which are all great feats, but still cap at Quadrillions-QuintillionsxFTL if you want to discuss the calcs which DBS can keep up with.

Characters like Hit have also flown across Universe 6 and 7 in one minute (In episode 71 where he goes to assasinate Goku), and everyone here scales to that, and Beerus reacted to an attack mid detonation that was going to engulf and wipe out the entire Universe. There's more that's just a few

gods like Athena crossed different space time continuums, history, etc. within a moment.

Whis can fly across space-time continuums, timelines, and into the past too as was told to use in Episode 71 where he offers to fly Trunks into the past.

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But these shouldn't matter too much because neither Athena nor Whis are here, and only Hades here would scale to Athena since it's something only Olympian Gods have shown to be able of, and not Seiya. Hades obviously solos here, but personally I don't think Seiya can is all.

Fodder like the moon witch crossed 10.000 lightyears within a short timeframe back to Chronos, and both Saints that are whiped by Chronos in different time-space came back in a few minutes.

Hecate's feat? It was actually 1,000 light years, not 10,000.

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Beerus actually did a similar feat in Episode 1 where he flies out of his Nebula to some distant solar system far enough to where his Nebula isn't visible anywhere in the distance in 2 minutes.

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To give you a scope on that, the Orion Nebula, which is only 12 LY long, is visible from Earth about 1200 LY away, while Beerus's Nebula which contains multiple suns and should be at least comparable to that in size wasn't even visible after the distance Beerus travels.

Dragonball is outspeeded here by far, especially since no one from that team scales to Whis his speed. His own speed without scepter is even more questionable, there aren´t really comparable speed feats to Saint Seiya without this.

Disagree tbh, there are many other cross Universal level speed feats that these characters did themselves or do scale to which I can post if you still have doubts, Whis isn't needed here, like the one I posted above which Champa himself did and Vados did too without her staff and I can post more of them if you'd like. By quantifiable feats SS and DB are pretty relative in speed.

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VarricPatermann

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#23  Edited By VarricPatermann

Pegasus alone is enough here tbh, if we allowed him full power. 9th sense = Divine Cosmos, put him on a higher immortal level + makes him resistant against attacks based on universal concepts and causality. God clothes also can no sell universal attacks like Athena Exclamation + That guy fought against Ailolos in Episode G, who was possessed by Zeus and tanked the total destruction of the underworld. Zeus is far above Hades in all terms of power and stomped his own father Cronos, and even Typhon who stomped 11 olympic gods and managed to damage even Zeus. The arrows of Seiya later fused the power of all 12 Zodiac temple and manage to destroy even a Titan. That is like being hit by the Zodiac Clamation of Leo Regulus, but even more destructive, since the generation of Gold Saints from Seiya´s Era is more powerful.

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JOVIOLMA

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#24  Edited By JOVIOLMA

Hades solos, you could add the rest of the GoDs and the result wouldn't change. Also:

@gelato_exotic

Characters like Hit have also flown across Universe 6 and 7 in one minute (In episode 71 where he goes to assasinate Goku)

How we know he flied there himself instead of use some spaceship or moved with Vados's aid ?

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mevbi

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@joviolma said:

Hades solos, you could add the rest of the GoDs and the result wouldn't change. Also:

@gelato_exotic

Characters like Hit have also flown across Universe 6 and 7 in one minute (In episode 71 where he goes to assasinate Goku)

How we know he flied there himself instead of use some spaceship or moved with Vados's aid ?

No one cares about your opinion, fodder

OT: Beerus solos

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gelato_exotic

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#26  Edited By gelato_exotic

@joviolma:

Goku actually senses Hit flying there while he's coming and looks in the sky (doesn't sense Vados or Champa with him. Goku's demonstrated to be able to sense angel ki just fine, particularly that scene where he IT's the alarm bomb to Whis)

There was no spaceship around anywhere at any scene whatsoever in Episode 71 and 72 neither while Hit is in U6 departing, or in Earth when he arrives and leaves, he's indicated to have been on his own the entire time.

At the end of episode 72, Hit leaves and actually just flies away by himself onscreen lol without any spaceship, and then Vados and Champa say we should leave too and also flies off.

Nothing suggests he could've came with Vados either considering for one he was in some random planet in U6 by himself and a minute later Goku already senses him flying to Earth. It's kind of a huge leap in headcanon when you consider how they were no where present when Hit is shown to walk away and presumably depart and he would've had to meet up with them somewhere in that single minute timeframe and then fly all the way to Earth in a different Universe.

Hit himself was surprised like Goku when seeing that Vados and Champa arrived to watch their fight. And when you consider how Hit and Vados/Champa flew off by themselves seperate rather than Hit together with them at the end of 72, yeah, I doubt it.

There's also the fact that Hit was completely unaware Goku was his target until he checked his device right the minute before he left and just goes there, indicating the event wasn't prepped for in advance and I doubt Vados and Champa would've stood around waiting for him to take on other targets lol. Whis even implies Vados and Champa came later than Hit "Looks like someone got here first" or something along these lines.

Oh yeah, and in episode 72 Hit even mentions his distaste for witnesses which is why he left the fight, another indication just like any assassin would he came alone.

https://www.crunchyroll.com/dragon-ball-super/episode-71-the-death-of-goku-the-guaranteed-assassination-mission-723755

https://www.crunchyroll.com/dragon-ball-super/episode-72-will-there-be-a-counterattack-the-invisible-killing-strike-723757

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GangOrca

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#27  Edited By GangOrca

@mevbi said:

No one cares about your opinion, fodder

OT: Beerus solos

lol Beerus isn't soloing shit. At least, not here.

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mevbi

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#28  Edited By mevbi

@gangorca said:
@mevbi said:

No one cares about your opinion, fodder

OT: Beerus solos

lol Beerus isn't soloing shit. At least, not here.

Beerus outclasses the saynt seya verse as a whole. Easily a universal+ buster (which is more than enough to kill Hades) and scales above Goku who transcends time. He could also erase Hades' whole concept with hakai. It's really simple

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gelato_exotic

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@mevbi: At best he could make Hades fall asleep for 200 years, and that's assuming he'd actually be able to fight Hades to that point which he'd get wrecked if he tried.

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JOVIOLMA

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#30  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@gelato_exotic: One doesn't needs prep to travel in a spaceship or fly with Vados, since we know she was the one who hired him, not to mention said ''feat'' wouldn't fit the power scale or would make sense in the slightest, there's absolutely nothing preventing Vados to have just left Hit in a near location and let him fly the rest by himself as he was planning to hide the fact they were helping him as he planned to hide his client's identity, and neither needed Goku to mention Vados as she was the one who hired Hit when Whis told about Goku's plan. We don't know if she was the one who brought him, or the one who gave him transportation to arrive at said location, since nothing prevents the idea of she give him his own Cube(Don't remember Hit being surprised with they in there watching the fight,, and Goku remarking this would just be a dumb moment of PIS/WIS as he should be able to feel their signatures so near him). If the later accomplished said feat it would just be a outlier when you consider the fact the ones like Future Jiren took no actions against Black, despite based on this thing, having enough speed to arrive at each universe casually within a short timeframe and Black took 1 year to kill people in Universe 7 giving Jiren enough time to find him, which didn't happened.

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GangOrca

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#31  Edited By GangOrca

@mevbi:

Beerus outclasses the saynt seya verse as a whole.

Yikes. That's one way to ruin your entire argument in just the first sentence.

Easily a universal+ buster (which is more than enough to kill Hades)

I question what you think is "enough" that's below universal+ given that Hades's presence alone maintains Elysium, the Underworld, and the Hyperdimension. Not to mention he was clapping god cloth saints who scale above universal feats performed by gold cloth saints.

and scales above Goku who transcends time.

> Has alternate past versions of himself

> Requires instant transmission to travel instantly

> Goku transcends time

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Your jokes aren't funny Mevbi so it is only natural that I give you an unfunny meme as a response.

He could also erase Hades' whole concept with hakai. It's really simple

Or Hades just stands there as Beerus loses all of his senses.

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#32  Edited By gelato_exotic

@joviolma:

One doesn't needs prep to travel in a spaceship or fly with Vados, since we know she was the one who hired him, not to mention said ''feat'' wouldn't fit the power scale or would make sense in the slightest, there's absolutely nothing preventing Vados to have just left Hit in a near location and let him fly the rest by himself as he was planning to hide the fact they were helping him as he planned to hide his client's identity

This is if Vados was actually shown around anywhere when Hit departs or originally arrives at Earth, which there isn't any proof of and is indicated otherwise by Goku, you're assuming things that aren't shown and need to prove that. Everything I've asserted was in fact shown or indicated strongly by other scene context. Assuming Vados left Hit in a random location and let him fly is also pure headcanon and practically writing in things that were never shown or remotely indicated to have happened/fanfic, what's presented is that he presumably flew there from U6 as no spaceship is shown once in 71-72, Goku senses him flying to Earth looks in the sky and doesn't sense Vados nor Champa, and actually flew onscreen on the way back by himself since he flies off and Vados/Champa leave later separately.

And neither needed Goku to mention Vados as she was the one who hired Hit when Whis told about Goku's plan. We don't know if she was the one who brought him, or the one who gave him transportation to arrive at said location

I'm aware she hired him, however Hit shows surprise just like Goku when noticing Vados and Champa are watching the fight. Hiring him has no correlation with flying him to the target and the scene, there's no evidence she brought him whatsoever this is pure speculation, but the fact is he flies off by himself without Vados onscreen in episode 72. Hit wasn't even aware of Goku being his target until checking his device and this also relies on the assumption that Vados and Champa were just waiting around for him to kill random targets, or the assumption he somehow met up with her in the short timeframe despite not even knowing in advance who he needed to go kill and where to go. Nothing is presented to us suggesting he used a spaceship or Vados, however on the way back we do see him actually fly off which still stands.

since nothing prevents the idea of she give him his own Cube.

Can you show me any single scene where the Cube is shown or even mentioned in the entirety of 71-72? If not this is another unprovable assumption, and one that's questionable when Hit is shown flying off onscreen by himself in 72.

If the later accomplished said feat it would just be a outlier when you consider the fact the ones like Future Jiren took no actions against Black, despite based on this thing, having enough speed to arrive at each universe casually within a short timeframe and Black took 1 year to kill people in Universe 7 giving Jiren enough time to find him, which didn't happened

Crossing Universal distances within a minute+ is hardly an outlier for the likes of a top tier non GoD character. If he did it in like a second I could see what you're getting at, but it took him an entire minute.

Jiren wasn't even an existing concept at the time, and from this claim you're asserting without presenting any evidence which you would need for your hypothetical situation to be a possibility;

-Jiren is actually aware of Goku Black and Zamasu's existence and would know where to look, unlike Hit with Goku. All we know is that Black at some point killed the Supreme Kai of U11, we're given no context as to whether or not he stayed in U11 afterwards and to say otherwise in order to assert Jiren would get involved is unprovable.

- Having enough speed doesn't matter when there's no evidence Jiren would be able to randomly sense Goku Black and Zamasu from that far away from U11 when no feat suggests the sort. Hit was a twin adjacent Universe away and Jiren isn't that close.

-The fact that Jiren even knows other Universes exist when in U7 even some Gods were shown to be oblivious to it at first. All that we know is the Pride troopers worked under Belmod. Not saying he didn't know, just asking for proof he did before the ToP in order for your situation to be plausible, considering how some weren't aware of it even while being aware of the GoD's existence IIRC. Even Jaco who's job is flying around catching intergalactic evildoers wasn't aware of the other Universes, wasn't he?

-The Black example is kind of a false equivalence, Black was spending his time going around enjoying killing mortals and taking his sweet time as shown in several scenes, and if I'm not mistaken, Trunks even stated Black arrived a year ago and he spent a year fooling around on Earth with Trunks and humans alone but I might be wrong remembering that. Regardless, it's not too compelling in saying Hit is an outlier. It's not like Black was going around actually destroying planets in a frenzy like Kid Buu or something, he was spending entire days walking around on the planet killing people little by little like shown in the flashbacks.

To be honest, it was never even stated whether or not Black was only attacking U7 the entire time. All he said is that he's already cleansed many planets already, not that it matters.

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get baited nerd

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@mevbi said:

get baited nerd

It's not a good bait game if you say "get baited" after the response. You wait to see how long they fall for the bait so you keep playing until they get it (and hope they never do).

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#35  Edited By mevbi

@gangorca said:
@mevbi said:

get baited nerd

It's not a good bait game if you say "get baited" after the response. You wait to see how long they fall for the bait so you keep playing until they get it (and hope they never do).

Of course, I could've played with you around some more but I'm too lazy rn

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@mevbi said:
@gangorca said:
@mevbi said:

get baited nerd

It's not a good bait game if you say "get baited" after the response. You wait to see how long they fall for the bait so you keep playing until they get it (and hope they never do).

Of course, I could've played with you around some more but I'm too lazy rn

Can't say I didn't see it coming knowing your history with SS vs DBZ/DBS threads.

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#37  Edited By JOVIOLMA

This is if Vados was actually around anywhere when Hit departs or originally arrives at Earth, which there isn't any proof of, you're assuming things that aren't shown and need to prove that.

Basically ,you're doing the same though, Hit wasn't showing travelling between the universes, his means of transportations are unknown, for all that matters, Goku said he was coming, but it wasn't made clear if he was with Vados when that happened, or he came by himself with the Transport Cube's aid, which Vados could pretty handle to him as she would have access to this device as we know that by the end of the CT, she took it with herself and left. Vados and Champa were around watching the fight against Goku and Hit, even though they would have no need to be on Earth, you're aware Angels can watch events with the use of their staff right ? If they were that and had no business with Hit, they never needed to came there to being with it, the fact they were on the planet further suggests both of them to already be around Hit when he got his mission.

Everything I've stated was in fact shown. Assuming Vados left Hit in a random location and let him fly is also headcanon, what's presented is that he presumably flew there from U6, and actually flew onscreen on the way back by himself since he flies off onscreen and Vados/Champa leave later separately.

And he could have returned to his spaceship or even being transported by Vados later while flying away, you're aware they can do this as showed in a brief cover where Beerus leaves with Whis, and had time to stop, before Goku could leave his position, tell Goku he was the 2nd strongest person he fought, and return to Whis's side. The whole point of Hit's deal with Vados and Champa was for him to win and having the cube, and so he could fly anywhere, even to other universes, what would be the point of such, if the later was always able to accomplish said feat ? Even after finish the fight with Monaca, he said to Vados take him home, even though based on what you're suggesting, he can cross universal distances faster than Whis

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

I'm aware, however Hit shows surprise just like Goku when noticing Vados and Champa are watching the fight.

?? When that happened ? Whis pointed out as far I'm concerned, him, Beerus and Vegeta were not the first ones to be watching the fight, and both Hit and Goku look at it, regardless of it, no one but Goku made any surprised statement, Hit kept silenced and fighting, while Goku as far we know being unable to detect beings on that level so near him would be a huge case of PIS/WIS

There's no evidence she brought up whatsoever this is pure speculation, but the fact is he flies off by himself without Vados onscreen in episode 72.

Hit wasn't even aware of Goku being his target until checking his device and this also relies on the assumption that Vados and Champa were just waiting around for him to kill random targets, or the assumption he somehow met up with her in the short timeframe despite not even knowing in advance who he needed to go kill and where to go.

Hit got the message by Vados, broke the device and later was seen walking. Why it's impossible for Vados to simple handle him the Cube or arrive at his location himself and take him with her, during that off screen time ? We don't even know how much real time passed between the request for killing Goku to Hit's arrival, only that by the time both ended fighting, it was already morning, if you're judging by cinematic timeframes that wouldn't help much as well.

Can you show me any single scene where the Cube is shown in the entirety of 71-72? If not this is another unprovable assumption, and one that's questionable when Hit is shown flying off onscreen by himself in 72.

Sadly in the same manner one can't show Hit flying by himself between both universes, I can't show the cube, although the absence of it on screen wouldn't translate to it's non existance, since as far we know, Hit entered the CT to get the cube, so he could be able to fly to everywhere and any universes, making the whole thing of him being able to flight there by himself casually doubtful.

Crossing Universal distances within a minute+ is hardly an outlier for the likes of a top tier non GoD character. If he did it in like a second I could see what you're getting at, but it took him an entire minute.

Hold on, so he cross 2 universes in one minute ? You're suggesting Hit > Whis then ? Since the later confirmed needs 35 minutes to cross the distance between Beerus's planet and Earth at full speed ?

No Caption Provided

Jiren wasn't even an existing concept at the time, and from this claim you're asserting without presenting any evidence that;

-Jiren is actually aware of Goku Black and Zamasu's existence and would know where to look, unlike Hit with Goku.

Him not being existent wouldn't be that much of a problem, DB always find a way to fit characters within the verse regardless, GoDs, Angels, Moro and Jiren included, I could see this being a thing if Black was referred as the strongest enemy, since Jiren wasn't introduced yet, but this is a different case. And my whole point with the second claim is simple, Belmod got killed by someone cuz Kai was killed, Jiren would only need to feel somewhere in the Universe the Ki of someone stronger than his Kai that was not his own patterns, he had 1 year or possible even more to accomplish such but absolutely nothing happened. We know he never fought against Black or Zamasu simple because he is confirmed to be above both in both anime and manga and would have won.

-Jiren would be able to sense Goku Black and Zamasu from that far away from U11. Hit was a twin adjacent Universe away and Jiren isn't that close.

Who says he needs to sense him ? Jiren is aware there are other Universes as far we're concerned, he made no surprised statement when hearing about the other universes being mentioned, if he was indeed able to fly between universes like you're suggesting, at some point, Black would be found and dealt with as he would in seconds travel between several universes and planets to find said person. None of that happened. Also, didn't Manga Black said Trunks disappeared from that world when he time travelled by the time he tried to sense his presence ? World depending on the context can mean both Universe or the Multiverse in DB.

-The Black example is kind of a false equivalence, Black was spending his time going around enjoying killing mortals and taking his sweet time as shown in several scenes, and if I'm not mistaken, Trunks even stated Black arrived a year ago and he spent a year fooling around on Earth with Trunks and humans alone but I might be wrong remembering that. Regardless, it's not too compelling in saying Hit is an outlier.

? He is in the Earth, with a massive amount of Ki that as far we know surpass that of anyone in DBZ(Goku SSJ3 alone can be felt from Earth until the KR while charging his Ki) If Jiren could travel between universes by himself, he would feel Black massive and evil Ki, and was only natural to believe something would been done. Why the former would simple let Black free ? There wasn't too much options, other than look for some powerful enemy somewhere between those universes that possessed a evil Ki(Something referred in the Namek Saga)

Jiren didn't had much to search, a Kai + enemy for killing his own Kai, with evil Ki, the fact that 1 year later he couldn't find him, further suggests he never got close to Black once, which wouldn't make sense if he could like you're suggesting fly between universes in such a short timespan. Hit wanted the Cube and Champa was worried to give him for a reason. None of that would add up if he was always able to cross universes
Jiren didn't had much to search, a Kai + enemy for killing his own Kai, with evil Ki, the fact that 1 year later he couldn't find him, further suggests he never got close to Black once, which wouldn't make sense if he could like you're suggesting fly between universes in such a short timespan. Hit wanted the Cube and Champa was worried to give him for a reason. None of that would add up if he was always able to cross universes

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Like I said, with Vegeta's spirit fission and going for a blitz the DBS team can win (without Hades) and that's assuming they are faster than Seiya.

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#39  Edited By gelato_exotic

@joviolma:

Basically ,you're doing the same though, Hit wasn't showing travelling between the universes, his means of transportations are unknown, for all that matters, Goku said he was coming, but it wasn't made clear if he was with Vados when that happened, or he came by himself with the Transport Cube's aid, which Vados could pretty handle to him as she would have access to this device. Vados and Champa were around watching the fight against Goku and Hit, even though they would have no need to be on Earth, you're aware Angels can watch events with the use of their staff right ? If they were that and had no business with Hit, they never needed to came there to being with it, the fact they were on the planet further suggests both of them to already be around Hit when he got his mission. Goku not mention Vados when Hit came wouldn't also mean too much

How else would he have reached U7? He was shown to be in U6, which should've been clear with Frost being on the News. It wasn't, however it was made clear he flew back by himself without Vados in 72.

I'm aware Angels can watch events with their staff, but then comes the fact that Whis also bothered to fly all the way to Earth to watch the fight, didn't he? Why didn't he just watch it with his staff too then? And those scans are currently manga only, and I'm discussing an anime feat, but regardless they've shown the ability to do so in the anime so it's fine, but don't see how it proves Vados must've flew him.

You're the one who originally asserted he could've used a transport cube or Vados's aid, when nothing onscreen shows that whatsoever and are speculating things that can't be proven without vague assumptions from other episodes rather than what's shown in 71-72 where most importantly Hit is indicated to fly back himself at the end. I'm asking you to prove the claim or directly show me something from 71-72 that would imply it, like I have with Hit being shown to fly away on his own without Vados.

And he could have returned to his spaceship or even being transported by Vados later while flying away, you're aware they can do this as showed in a brief cover where Beerus leaves with Whis, and had time to stop, before Goku could leave his position, tell Goku he was the 2nd strongest person he fought, and return to Whis's side. The whole point of Hit's deal with Vados and Champa was for him to win and having the cube, and so he could fly anywhere, even to other universes, what would be the point of such, if the later was always able to accomplish said feat ? Even after finish the fight with Monaca, he said to Vados take him home.

Once again, your assuming that a spaceship/cube was actually present when nothing indicates so and this is completely unprovable. How would he reach Vados after she already tapped her staff and begin flying away fast af, I'm confused here, and begun to fly towards the sky himself.

For the Monaka scene, I don't remember Hit actually asking Vados to fly him back and it was left ambiguous, but I could be wrong, mind linking me the scene if you can so I can refresh my memory? And ok, he didn't win, so that already puts him using the cube off the table. Regardless he was shown doing his job without any spaceship at hand, and the fact that he even wanted the cube before would imply such too, wouldn't it (no spaceship)?

Not like it matters too much whether or not Hit asked Vados to fly him back from Monaka or wanted the cube, DB characters have shown to use lesser means of travel than what they're capable of. In the Broly movie, Whis himself along with Goku and Vegeta use Bulmas plane to fly to Antartica or whatever, does this mean Whis, Goku, and Vegeta are subsonic and aren't capable of FTL speeds because they need a vehicle to travel a distance even if they feats to show they can travel it on their own (just like Hit)?

Not to mention Hit improved massively during his fight with Goku, and coincidentally after doing so decides to say F it for the cube.

?? When that happened ? Whis pointed out as far I'm concerned, him, Beerus and Vegeta were not the first ones to be watching the fight, and both Hit and Goku look at it, regardless of it, no one but Goku made any surprised statement, Hit kept silenced and fighting, while Goku as far we know being unable to detect beings on that level so near him would be a huge case of PIS/WIS

Goku isn't able to detect angels? He literally does in the episode where him and Vegeta do chores and Goku IT a bomb next to Whis.

When Goku looks at Vados and Champa with a surprised expression wondering why they're here, so does Hit in the scene.

Hit got the message by Vados, broke the device and later was seen walking. Why it's impossible for Vados to simple handle him the Cube or arrive at his location himself and take him with her, during that off screen time ? We don't even know how much real time passed between the request for killing Goku to Hit's arrival, only that by the time both ended fighting, it was already morning.

I never said that it was impossible bro, I just asked you to prove that it happened since you're attempting to connect the dots and fill in what happened off screen with no concrete evidence from 71-72 to bank on it and this would be akin to fanfiction.

Vados suddenly arriving at his location for no reason to transport him all within a minute isn't the most plausible thing, but more importantly something that's not provable and just an assumption.

We do know it was incredibly short amount of time since Gohan and Piccolo were just getting back shopping, and before and after Hit is shown leaving it was the same time of the day (evening/night) for the particular scenes in question.

Sadly in the same manner one can't show Hit flying by himself between both universes, I can't show the cube, although the absence of it on screen wouldn't translate to it's non existance, since as far we know, Hit entered the CT to get the cube, so he could be able to fly to everywhere and any universes, making the whole thing of him being able to flight there by himself casually doubtful.

However it is shown that he flies off by himself separate of Vados/Champa who leave on their own after him on the way back, which is still an irrefutable onscreen showing.

I never said the Cube doesn't exist or that he didn't have it, but it being not being present doesn't translate he must've used it too, your claiming that he did with no plausible evidence that he did so other than conjecture using different episodes, and even in the U6 Tournament he gave up on the Cube after enjoying his fight with his Goku and never won it in the end, so him having the cube is doubtful too. And who says he did it casually? He could've been flying at max power full speed or he couldn't have, nothing to indicate how much power he used.

Him not being existent wouldn't be that much of a problem, DB always find a way to fit characters within the verse regardless, GoDs, Angels, Moro and Jiren included, I could see this being a thing if Black was referred as the strongest enemy, since Jiren wasn't introduced yet, but this is a different case. And my whole point with the second claim is simple, Belmod got killed by someone cuz Kai was killed, Jiren would only need to feel somewhere in the Universe the Ki of someone stronger than his Kai that was not his own patterns, he had 1 year or possible even more to accomplish such but absolutely nothing happened. We know he never fought against Black or Zamasu simple because he is confirmed to be above both in both anime and manga and would have won.

Statements or scans to show that he was ever aware of Black and Zamasu's existence, or feats to show that he can sense them several Universes away? With all due respect I'm not interested in speculation about what he could've or would've done.

Who says he needs to sense him ? Jiren is aware there are other Universes as far we're concerned, he made no surprised statement when hearing about the other universes being mentioned, if he was indeed able to fly between universes like you're suggesting, at some point, Black would be found and dealt with as he would in seconds travel between several universes and planets to find said person. None of that happened.

Not really, we only know that he was aware of the Universes during or post ToP, or at best since it was announced. There's nothing to indicate whatsoever he knew about them beforehand, and is still an unproven assumption. Jiren's already stoic and dull attitude towards everything until Goku started putting the beats on him, his reaction to other universes existing is hardly compelling.

This also relies on the assumption that Jiren would actually know to look in every Universe if he even knew about their existence to find out who killed Belmod and Supreme Kai.

Except it is ? He is in the Earth, with a massive amount of Ki that as far we know surpass that of anyone in DBZ(Goku SSJ3 alone can be felt from Earth until the KR while charging his Ki) If Jiren could travel between universes by himself, he would feel Black massive and evil Ki, and was only natural to believe something would been done. Why the former would simple let Black first ? There wasn't too much options, other than look for some powerful enemy somewhere between those universes.

Black was chilling around in Base form in every flashback not even trying and laughing while doing his work, remember when Black almost got wrecked by a bullet while sipping tea suppressed and off guard? Yeah. I doubt he was flared up to max when he was even weaker earlier. Did we ever even see him power up once remotely once or have his aura visible besides a single short scene where he attacks Trunks? And you can't really quantify the definite distance between Earth and the KR in the SS3 scene since it orbits and could've been anywhere and Earth is stated to be at the edge of the Universe, and regardless would be slightly above Universal distance at best, nothing close to the distance between Jiren and Black. And there's still nothing to prove Jiren pre ToP was aware of other Universes, or would've thought to look in other Universes immediately because "not too many options", which is just speculation. Everyone experienced with Ki in the DB verse can suppress themselves and hide, can't they? I could also claim Jiren was probably scouring looking for the killer thinking he was suppressing himself to hide, which I can't prove but neither can you with the Black situation.

Hold on, so he cross 2 universes in one minute ? You're suggesting Hit > Whis then ? Since the later confirmed needs 35 minutes to cross the distance between Beerus's planet and Earth at full speed ?

I think you misunderstood me or maybe I worded it wrong, there's no proof he crossed the full diameter of 2 Universes at all lol. Just that he flew a possibly Universal, at least multi galactic distance in a minute (in the background of where the Milky Way is shown in DB there's always been distant galaxies on all ends, even if Earth is at the edge of the Universe and it's possible Hit was near that edge). Never meant to say he flew the full diameter of 2 Universes, just that he flew between them and crossed at least a multi galactic distance, to clarify.

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#41  Edited By gelato_exotic

@joviolma Sorry, I didn't notice those edits you made since I started writing my reply before them and didn't refresh the page, I'll address them here if that's ok.

No Caption Provided

Addressed that in my above reply, wasn't claiming he flew 2 entire Universes. This doesn't really matter though, Whis has consistently shown to be able to fly much faster when need to be and varies with speed immensely, such as the Arale episode, episode 72 itself where reaches Earth in a minute or two, Infinite Zamasu episode where he flies to Earth in a few minutes, and of course flying between U7 and U10 in a few minutes of an episode in the episode where Zamasu caught a hakai.

Who says he needs to sense him ? Jiren is aware there are other Universes as far we're concerned, he made no surprised statement when hearing about the other universes being mentioned, if he was indeed able to fly between universes like you're suggesting, at some point, Black would be found and dealt with as he would in seconds travel between several universes and planets to find said person. None of that happened. Also, didn't Manga Black said Trunks disappeared from that world when he time travelled by the time he tried to sense his presence ? World depending on the context can mean both Universe or the Multiverse in DB.

Addressed most of it above, but for the edit, in the context World can also planet. Goku Black doesn't indicate to be searching anything about the planet at the time and when he closes his eyes the scene even scans the surrounding areas in the debris.

As for the evil Ki thing you added, can you quantify by how much it would increase Black's ki signature to the point where Jiren would be able to catch wind of it from several Universes way while Black's in his causal base form? Otherwise idk what this proves.

Also, IDK about using manga scenes interchangeably with anime scenes this is specficially an anime feat I'm referring to here, but regardless I talked about the Cube thing in my above reply so just apply that for the edits.

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Feats for the non DB fighters here?

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#43  Edited By JOVIOLMA

How else would he have reached U7? He was shown to be in U6, which should've been clear with Frost being on the News. It wasn't, however it was made clear he flew back by himself without Vados in 72.

I'm aware Angels can watch events with their staff, but then comes the fact that Whis also bothered to fly all the way to Earth to watch the fight, didn't he? Why didn't he just watch it with his staff too then?

With the Cube that we know Vados had with herself, didn't denied the Frost thing, it's of my knowledge, but 72 didn't proved Vados didn't transported him, just showed Hit leaving, not confirming if he was flying to space or to somewhere else. As for the 2nd point, he was there to Eat, this was showed in his dialogue with Vegeta.

You're the one who originally asserted he could've used a transport cube or Vados's aid, when nothing onscreen shows that whatsoever and are speculating things that can't be proven without vague assumptions from other episodes rather than what's shown in 71-72 where most importantly Hit is indicated to fly back himself at the end. I'm asking you to prove the claim.

Obviously since he was hired by her, and there's no timeframe between the call, and his arrival, if you're suggesting he did that in 1 minute, you're strongly suggesting Hit somehow is > Whis in speed.

Once again, your assuming that a spaceship/cube was actually present when nothing indicates so and this is completely unprovable. How would he reach Vados after she already tapped her staff and begin flying away fast af, I'm confused here, and begun to fly towards the sky himself.

He don't know to reach her, she can reach herself. Fact is, Hit entered the tournament for the cube till he gave up the idea once he payed his debt with Goku, Champa didn't wanted him to get his hands on it due to it's properties of multi universal travel.

For the Monaka scene, I don't remember Hit actually asking Vados to fly him back and it was left ambiguous, but I could be wrong, mind linking me the scene if you can? And ok, he didn't win, so that already puts him using the cube off the table. Regardless he was shown doing his job without any spaceship at hand, and the fact that he even wanted the cube before would imply such too, wouldn't it (no spaceship)?

Hit returned, said he didn't wanted the Cube anymore, and asked her to go home. He didn't win doesn't also means much, I'm assuming you're not following what I'm saying, Hit was hired by Vados, Vados took the cube with her by the time the tournament end, it was always in her possession.

Not like it matters too much, DB characters have shown to use lesser means of travel than what they're capable of. In the Broly movie, Whis himself along with Goku and Vegeta use Bulmas plane to fly to Antartica or whatever, does this mean Whis, Goku, and Vegeta are subsonic and aren't capable of FTL speeds?

No. It just means they didn't bothered to go there flying, Whis specifically said he was going to need a certain amount of time to cross the distance between Earth and BP.

Goku isn't able to detect angels? He literally does in the episode where him and Vegeta do chores and Goku IT a bomb next to Whis.

Which was pretty much a gag scene, and even I don't disagreeing with the notion of him sensing angels, I never said he couldn't, what you on about ? :''Goku as far we know being unable to detect beings on that level so near him would be a huge case of PIS/WIS(My point is how it would be totally unlogical for Goku to being unable to sense Champa and Vados in such a close proximity, despite their level and his ability to detect energies from massive distances), no different from him only noticing Whis and Beerus when he was pretty much ending of stomping Moro 73.

When Goku looks at Vados and Champa with a surprised expression wondering why they're here, so does Hit in the scene.

Nope, he literally says nothing, unless the site I checked said episode removed this brief stance, only Goku points that out, Hit only looked alongside him as well when Whis made the statement, but he never remarked anything.

I never said that it was impossible bro, I just asked you to prove that it happened since you're attempting to connect the dots and fill in what happened off screen with no concrete evidence from 71-72 to bank on it and this would be akin to fanfiction.

There's no fanfiction, Hit entered the tournament for the cube due to it's transportation abilities but refused it after lost on purpose, the only thing the cube had special was the fact it could transport to everywhere and it was remarked this everywhere included other universes, if someone like Hit was always able to accomplish said thing, he wouldn't need it.

Vados suddenly arriving at his location for no reason to transport him all within a minute isn't the most plausible thing, but more importantly something that's not provable and just an assumption.

It does seems more plausible than assume Hit is somehow able to travel faster than Whis somehow.

We do know it was incredibly short amount of time since Gohan and Piccolo were just getting back shopping, and before and after Hit is shown leaving it was the same time of the day (evening/night) for the particular scenes in question.

Except we know it wasn't cuz by the time they started fighting it was already night, their fight ended in the morning, meaning hours could have passed, are you suggesting he crossed that in like minutes ? Even though that a casual Whis is > GoDs and Hit as far we know is not even strong as Champa ? How would he accomplish such feat without Vados or the Cube's aid ?

However it is shown that he flies off by himself separate of Vados/Champa who leave on their own after him on the way back, which is still an irrefutable onscreen showing.

Okay, and how this prevents the fact Vados could have caught up with him or even he left cuz he had within his possession some spaceship to accomplish this ? You're saying he flied by himself, even though by the powerscale following in the series, if something like that happened it would be just a outlier.

I never said the Cube doesn't exist or that he didn't have it, but it being not being present doesn't translate he must've used it too, your claiming that he did with no plausible evidence that he did so other than conjecture using different episodes, and even in the U6 Tournament he gave up on the Cube after enjoying his fight with his Goku and never won it in the end, so him having the cube is doubtful too. And who says he did it casually? He could've been flying at max power full speed or he couldn't have, nothing to indicate how much power he used.

Hit don't win doesn't means he is unable to get the Cube in his possession somehow, the cube was with Vados, who hired him to kill Goku due to Whis's request that comes from Goku himself, and she was on Earth watching the fight for a reason, even though she had absolutely no reason to travel all the way to Universe 7 if she could watch from where she was alone, she not even was there to eat or do anything like that, she was just watching the fight with Champa as well, meaning she had something to do on Earth, which is why I'm saying none of us can make a 100 % claim that Hit fleed there alone, there's nothing preventing him now having the cube under his possession after Vados hire him. And hold on, so he was flying at full power speed, and yet no one but Goku noticed he was approaching despite his lack of God Ki, and his superiority to SSJ3 DBZ Goku ? If he was not flying at full speed, he was flying casually and managed to arrive in what you're suggesting a higher pace than Whis, and yet somehow, no one but the guy who was waiting for him felt his approach ?

Statements or scans to show that he was ever aware of Black and Zamasu's existence, or feats to show that he can sense them several Universes away? With all due respect I'm not interested in speculation about what he could've or would've done.

I never said he was aware of both, you should read my statements before jumping to conclusions:''If Jiren could travel between universes by himself, he would feel Black massive and evil Ki, and was only natural to believe something would been done. Why the former would simple let Black free ? There wasn't too much options, other than look for some powerful enemy somewhere between those universes(Someone whose Ki surpassed that of a Kai) that possessed a evil Ki(Something referred in the Namek Saga)'' There's a reason he did nothing, he has no way to travel between those universes by himself.

Not really, we only know that he was aware of the Universes during or post ToP, or at best since it was announced. There's nothing to indicate whatsoever he knew about them beforehand, and is still an unproven assumption. Jiren's already stoic and dull attitude towards everything until Goku started putting the beats on him, his reaction to other universes existing is hardly compelling.

That's kinda unlikely as Jiren was aware of the numeration of his own Universe(11) which suggests him to being informed about this at some point.

This also relies on the assumption that Jiren would actually know to look in every Universe if he even knew about their existence to find out who killed Belmod and Supreme Kai.

Then how Hit arrived at Goku if nothing suggests he knows how to look on it ? The only stances he was in there was in the tournament and when he killed Goku, and how would he feel a suppressed Goku's ki ?

Black was chilling around in Base form in every flashback not even trying and laughing while doing his work, remember when Black almost got wrecked by a bullet while sipping tea suppressed and off guard? Yeah. I doubt he was flared up to max when he was even weaker earlier. Did we ever even see him power up once remotely once or have his aura visible besides a single short scene where he attacks Trunks? And you can't really quantify the definite distance between Earth and the KR in the SS3 scene since it orbits and could've been anywhere and Earth is stated to be at the edge of the Universe, and regardless would be slightly above Universal distance at best, nothing close to the distance between Jiren and Black. And there's still nothing to prove Jiren pre ToP was aware of other Universes, or would've thought to look in other Universes immediately because "not too many options", which is just speculation

Black was facing SSJ2-SSJ3(DBZ) enemies in base alone, everything he did was hide(Anime) his SSR most of the time, Jiren wouldn't simple being unable to feel him, didn't Black remarked Trunks's presence disappeared from the world when he escaped ? Depending on the context it could be both, planet, universe, multiverse or timeline. Don't get your 2st point. It's not like Black was suppressed the whole time, he was nuking planets, facing SSJ3 Level enemies.

. Everyone experienced with Ki in the DB verse can supress themselves and hide, can't they? I could also Jiren was probably scouring looking for the killer thinking he was suppressing himself to hide, which I can't prove but neither can you with the Black situation.

He was suppressing himself for 1 year ?

Addressed that in my above reply, wasn't claiming he flew 2 entire Universes. This doesn't really matter though, Whis has consistently shown to be able to fly much faster when need to be and varies with speed immensely, such as the Arale episode, episode 72 itself where reaches Earth in a minute or two, Infinite Zamasu episode where he flies to Earth in a few minutes, and of course flying between U7 and U10 in a few minutes of an episode in the episode where Zamasu caught a hakai.

ddressed most of it above, but for the edit, in the context World can also planet. Goku Black doesn't indicate to be searching anything about the planet at the time and when he closes his eyes the scene even scans the surrounding areas in the debris.

As for the evil Ki thing you added, can you quantify by how much it would increase Black's ki signature to the point where Jiren would be able to catch wind of it from several Universes way while Black's in his causal base form? Otherwise idk what this proves.

Gag episode, so not useful, in that episode Vegeta got surprised cuz Arale circled the globe so fast. I don't recall the last stance. Where it was confirmed he was in Universe 7 already when he was watching Zamasu in 10 ? Someone at Black's level based on what you're suggesting would be sensed by Jiren anywhere in the Universe if Hit's thing was true, Goku was in base and suppressed the whole time, and yet somehow, Hit arrived at him, according to you, from Universe 6 with his own travel speed. How ?

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#45  Edited By bgninjaQ

Goku solos their overrated verses

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#46  Edited By JOVIOLMA

@gelato_exotic: You know, sorry if this is all of sudden but for all that matters and due to some serious real life worries I can't explain too much now, care if we just agree to disagree ? I don't think I'll be able to keep the discussion for too long and I wouldn't like to return days later to bump the thread and restart the discussion, If it make it less bothersome, I can delete my posts to you, would this bother you somehow ? We can continue this other day in some CaV or something like that.

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#47  Edited By gelato_exotic

@joviolma:

With the Cube that we know Vados had with herself, didn't denied the Frost thing, it's of my knowledge, but 72 didn't proved Vados didn't transported him, just showed Hit leaving, not confirming if he was flying to space or to somewhere else. As for the 2nd point, he was there to Eat, this was showed in his dialogue with Vegeta.

It didn't prove she did transport him either and it was indicated otherwise with him flying off himself in one direction and Vados/Champa flying off later in another direction, you're speculating what could've happened, just because it's not disproven (although it does seem to me to not be the case), doesn't mean it's proven. All I'm asking for is actual proof Vados did in fact transport him when the episode shows him flying off alone, and not speculation of hypothetical situations.

Obviously since he was hired by her, and there's no timeframe between the call, and his arrival, if you're suggesting he did that in 1 minute, you're strongly suggesting Hit somehow is > Whis in speed.

I'm not implying that. Whis has travelled to Earth and crossed multi galactic to Universal distances in seconds and few minutes, and he's made it clear he greatly varies in his speed and never uses his full speed.

I already affirmed this above;

"I think you misunderstood me or maybe I worded it wrong, there's no proof he crossed the full diameter of 2 Universes at all lol. Just that he flew a possibly Universal, at least multi galactic distance in a minute (in the background of where the Milky Way is shown in DB there's always been distant galaxies on all ends, even if Earth is at the edge of the Universe and it's possible Hit was near that edge). Never meant to say he flew the full diameter of 2 Universes, just that he flew between them and crossed at least a multi galactic distance, to clarify."

Which was pretty much a gag scene, and even I don't disagreeing with the notion of him sensing angels, I never said he couldn't, what you on about ? :''Goku as far we know being unable to detect beings on that level so near him would be a huge case of PIS/WIS(My point is how it would be totally unlogical for Goku to being unable to sense Champa and Vados in such a close proximity, despite their level and his ability to detect energies from massive distances), no different from him only noticing Whis and Beerus when he was pretty much ending of stomping Moro 73.

There is literally no evidence for it being a gag scene whatsoever that's more speculation to fit a certain narratiev or Goku not being able to sense them, they're established to have God ki and nothing more which Goku can sense just fine. I don't remember anything contradicting Goku being able to sense them while trying.

He don't know to reach her, she can reach herself. Fact is, Hit entered the tournament for the cube till he gave up the idea once he payed his debt with Goku, Champa didn't wanted him to get his hands on it due to it's properties of multi universal travel.

Did Champa ever actually say that? Regardless, he didn't obtain it and likely didn't use it and that's all that truly matters here.

No. It just means they didn't bothered to go there flying, Whis specifically said he was going to need a certain amount of time to cross the distance between Earth and BP.

It's no different from Hit not being bothered to always fly to every target either hence wanting the Cube, simple as that.

Nope, he literally says nothing, unless the site I checked said episode removed this brief stance, only Goku points that out, Hit only looked alongside him as well when Whis made the statement, but he never remarked anything.

Yeah, but regardless he wasn't completely oblivious or uncaring of their appearance, and this still doesn't prove they flew him to or from U7.

There's no fanfiction, Hit entered the tournament for the cube due to it's transportation abilities but refused it after lost on purpose, the only thing the cube had special was the fact it could transport to everywhere and it was remarked this everywhere included other universes, if someone like Hit was always able to accomplish said thing, he wouldn't need it.

This is like my plane example from the Broly Movie, just because they needed the plane to get there doesn't mean they can't on their own. Hit preferring to use the cube doesn't contradict him having a feat of actually flying to a different Universe.

It does seems more plausible than assume Hit is somehow able to travel faster than Whis somehow.

Which I never implied, and even if his speed would be calcable faster than Whis which it isn't, Whis has consistently shown that he varies in speed and doesn't bother with using his full speed.

Except we know it wasn't cuz by the time they started fighting it was already night, their fight ended in the morning, meaning hours could have passed, are you suggesting he crossed that in like minutes ? Even though that a casual Whis is > GoDs and Hit as far we know is not even strong as Champa ? How would he accomplish such feat without Vados or the Cube's aid ?

And before he was shown departing and after he arrived, it was still night too. I never said Hit>Whis in speed, and in minutes it wouldn't come out faster than Whis's best feats like the Arale one or flying to U10.

Your being incredulous and assuming he's not capable of these speeds despite having a feat of doing so, and automatically attributing the cube and Vados to it just because of how fast it would be despite it not being that inconsistent at all.

Okay, and how this prevents the fact Vados could have caught up with him or even he left cuz he had within his possession some spaceship to accomplish this ? You're saying he flied by himself, even though by the powerscale following in the series, if something like that happened it would be just a outlier.

Like I told you earlier, what's shown in the scene indicates otherwise, and there is nada proof of him using the cube or spaceship whatsoever. We're kinda going in circles here and at this point are just leading up to an agree to disagree agreement, which I'll be fine with.

Hit don't win doesn't means he is unable to get the Cube in his possession somehow, the cube was with Vados, who hired him to kill Goku due to Whis's request that comes from Goku himself, and she was on Earth watching the fight for a reason, even though she had absolutely no reason to travel all the way to Universe 7 if she could watch from where she was alone, she not even was there to eat or do anything like that, she was just watching the fight with Champa as well, meaning she had something to do on Earth, which is why I'm saying none of us can make a 100 % claim that Hit fleed there alone, there's nothing preventing him now having the cube under his possession after Vados hire him. And hold on, so he was flying at full power speed, and yet no one but Goku noticed he was approaching despite his lack of God Ki, and his superiority to SSJ3 DBZ Goku ? If he was not flying at full speed, he was flying casually and managed to arrive in what you're suggesting a higher pace than Whis, and yet somehow, no one but the guy who was waiting for him felt his approach ?

But in the same scene Whis goes there too to watch the fight, and Beerus even says we're here to watch.

I never said he was flying at full power speed bro, I said that he could've been or could've not been and it's completely unprovable how fast how he flew whether it was casual or full power, that's all. Ki control is still a thing, and SS3 was exactly against it.

I never said he was aware of both, you should read my statements before jumping to conclusions:''If Jiren could travel between universes by himself, he would feel Black massive and evil Ki, and was only natural to believe something would been done. Why the former would simple let Black free ? There wasn't too much options, other than look for some powerful enemy somewhere between those universes(Someone whose Ki surpassed that of a Kai) that possessed a evil Ki(Something referred in the Namek Saga)'' There's a reason he did nothing, he has no way to travel between those universes by himself.

How does Jiren being able to travel between Universes prove he can sense beings from that far away too? Post Yardrat Cell Saga Goku could IT to New Namek which is a nigh galactic distance and sense there, but he could travel that far on his own speed at that point?

That's kinda unlikely as Jiren was aware of the numeration of his own Universe(11) which suggests him to being informed about this at some point.

This still took place after the ToP was announced, didn't it?

Then how Hit arrived at Goku if nothing suggests he knows how to look on it ? The only stances he was in there was in the tournament and when he killed Goku, and how would he feel a suppressed Goku's ki ?

What makes you say Goku was suppressed, when he was literally drawing Hit in towards him, hiring him, and even making comments like "Follow me Hit!" and waiting for him the entire day. It's pretty clear he was trying to be found.

Black was facing SSJ2-SSJ3(DBZ) enemies in base alone, everything he did was hide(Anime) his SSR most of the time, Jiren wouldn't simple being unable to feel him, didn't Black remarked Trunks's presence disappeared from the world when he escaped ? Depending on the context it could be both, planet, universe, multiverse or timeline. Don't get your 2st point. It's not like Black was suppressed the whole time, he was nuking planets, facing SSJ3 Level enemies.

Black was never shown to have destroyed a single planet and was rather in his eyes saving them just cleansing mortals, unless you count him and Zamasu destroying the SDBs. From the context I'm arguing it's planet because the planet zooms in on the surrounding debris.

He was suppressing himself for 1 year ?

He had no reason to be going all out fighting regular mortals, in a state far weaker than he was in current time, in base. And this still banking on the assumption Jiren can sense that far which I'm still frankly not convinced.

Gag episode, so not useful. I don't recall the last stance. Where it was confirmed he was in Universe 7 already when he was watching Zamasu in 10 ?

Uh, it;s still canon and nothing suggests otherwise, Arale is even Toriyama's own character and had cameos in OG DB?

Are Whis or Beerus themselves gag characters? If not you can't apply this gag logic to them.

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#48  Edited By gelato_exotic

@joviolma said:

@gelato_exotic: You know, sorry if this is all of sudden but for all that matters and due to some serious real life worries I can't explain too much now, care if we just agree to disagree ? I don't think I'll be able to keep the discussion for too long and I wouldn't like to return days later to bump the thread and restart the discussion, If it make it less bothersome, I can delete my posts to you, would this bother you somehow ? We can continue this other day in some CaV or something like that.

Nah nah it's perfectly fine it was fun, and damn, I hope everything's alright that's bad to hear, stay safe! Dang, I just posted a reply, just ignore it, it's not important if something's going on for you.

I don't really do CaVs, not a fan of how long and dragged out they are. I guess we can just agree to disagree here at this point or something, wish the best for what's going on in your life :).

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#49  Edited By JOVIOLMA
If things go right, I shall return tomorrow by night, or at least 2-3 days, will still be up to CaV this subject or the thread itself if you or anyone is willing though. As long nothing prevents me from such till December.
If things go right, I shall return tomorrow by night, or at least 2-3 days, will still be up to CaV this subject or the thread itself if you or anyone is willing though. As long nothing prevents me from such till December.

Will just quickly address this as it's far faster:

''Uh, it;s still canon and nothing suggests otherwise, Arale is even Toriyama's own character and had cameos in OG DB?

Are Whis or Beerus themselves gag characters? If not you can't apply this gag logic to them.''

The whole episode is a gag, so what happens in there shouldn't be taken at face value that much, Whis was worried to arrive at Earth to eat the ice cream Bulma offered before it melts, and in that episode Vegeta acted like someone circling the Earth so fast was impressive. Arale also breaks the planet in half that episode.

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#50  Edited By gelato_exotic

@joviolma:

Hm, I see where you're coming from, personally disagree though, since all the gag actions were performed specifically with Arale and her gag/toon force, and no one else really utilized it or had it applied to them. Vegeta could've just been surprised that a little girl like Arale was able to do such a thing.

Alright then, stay safe and I hope the best for your IRL issues , cheers!