S.5 Anakin Skywalker and S.5 Ahsoka vs early S.5 Maul and Savage Opress

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Interested in the opinions of the people here.

Please don’t give me something like Maul easily solos or Anakin ragdolls. I would very much appreciate you justifying your reasoning.

Arena: Geonosis Hangar bay.

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#3  Edited By Greysentinel365

I assume you mean chicken leg Maul as there's next to no power difference between any of his S5 appearances?

Anakin can high diff solo. But Ahsoka is at best an excellent distraction. That being said it's very even split.

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Team 1 decisively. Unless Savage just goes berserk at the beginning of the fight for no reason and starts force abusing then Ahsoka has a shot of beating him.

Anakin stomps Maul.

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@hellothere5432: Fail to see how these minute increases equate to anything notable. All of the main things accredited to his growth happen prior to his S5 appearance.

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@hellothere5432:

He trained Savage post early S5

All of Mauls episodes in S5 occur consecutively. He's either frozen, in jail or running a crime ring/planet. At no point does he train Savage in S5.

SW.com also implies Maul experienced a power boost after killing Satine and getting revenge on Obi Wan

Post it.

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@hellothere5432:

He trained Savage post early S5

All of Mauls episodes in S5 occur consecutively. He's either frozen, in jail or running a crime ring/planet. At no point does he train Savage in S5.

If you sought to exploit loopholes, to argue with technicalities, then perhaps Maul could have worked to sharpen Savage's saber techniques. But he received no further training in the Force beyond what little Dooku taught him:

The line, “I’m not like you, brother. I never was,” it works on several levels for me, which is first and foremost that he isn’t a trained Sith. He isn’t that super evil. He’s got barely any training from Dooku. He’s kind of more magically imbued by Mother Talzin than anything else, which is evidenced when he dies.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/05/star-wars-the-clone-wars-dave-filoni-talks-about-the-death-watchdarth-maul-arc-and-the-casualties-along-the-way?page=2

This is how things are in the show. Not the adjacent EU.

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Intriguing matchup -- the fifth season of TCW is supposed to be young Ahsoka Tano's prime in the series, but many just assume that it's her season 7 self, simply because a little time has passed.

Against the season 5 incarnations of Darth Maul and Savage Opress? Anakin Skywalker will solo, given that Obi-Wan Kenobi was more than a match for the duo. As for Ahsoka, she should prove a tough challenge for Maul, as she managed later on, but I do believe Maul will edge out the match more firmly -- he's not yet been further broken, mentally speaking, by Darth Sidious' rejection of him in favour of the elder Darth Tyranus. Savage Opress, however, should fall rather quickly to her. He was trounced by Maul and Obi-Wan, after all.

Should Ahsoka Tano be pitted against season 4 Savage, she will find herself outmatched. His sheer power is overwhelming, and he performed equally alongside season 4 Maul, more or less. Ahsoka did compete with a more formidable Maul, but I don't see her taking any version of his CW self. More importantly, Savage beat down a more impressive opponent: Asajj Ventress herself. Even if one were to assume that Ahsoka was the more proficient fighter, it wouldn't matter. Ventress outfought Savage, but he needed land only one blow to achieve victory. Ahsoka will be KOed by the first hit Savage connects, and he will connect one.

Skywalker will overmatch either Zabrak, but not as quickly as Savage would render Ahsoka incapacitated. It depends on who fights who, but the Jedi should prevail more often than not.

Season 3 Savage? Either way against Skywalker -- perhaps an edge to the Jedi -- but noticeably beyond Ahsoka or Maul. Even split, two versus two.

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@hellothere5432: I guess with a rage amp he could do it. Savage needs to die or get hurt first though.

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@lord_tenebrous: Thank you for the analysis. I do agree that Savage stands along side Maul.

He also performs much better against Kenobi.

I think the go between Ventress Savage and S.4 Maul is very close with Ventress being the most skilled, Sagave the most powerful and Maul the Smartest fighter.

In fights he almost always does the work for Maul:

Against the Jedi duo in the revival he gains the upper hand in his opponent before Maul, who can only kill his enemy when she wants to save her friend.

He kills Adi Gallia before Maul dies anything against Kenobi, turning it into a 2v1.

He tanks Kenobis kicks before Maul desperately uses the force on Kenobi after he got pounded into a defensive stance by the former.

He stalemated Ventress on the turtle tanker while Maul got his ass beat u til he unbalanced a hindered Kenobi.

After Sidious KO’s Maul he can fully concentrate on Savage and kill him. Not that the brothers could compete with Sidious by any means but still.

Only against Master Judd does he not perform better than Maul.

He is by war the more efficient and effective fighter.

He also kills more Jedi.

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@hody_jones: Why would you say that Anakin stomps Maul? Beat him decisively like his Master? I can see that, but stomp?

As this is early S.5 Maul he is out of the realm where he can be trashed by low to mid 8’s.

Anakin can compete with Dooku for a bit at this point I guess but he would still get beat like Maul would.

I don’t think he has the duelling feats for that.

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@lord_tenebrous: I don’t know if Anakin can beat the brothers in a 2v1. He never fights as smart as Kenobi does and he doesn’t have two sabers here.

Kenobi created an environmental advantage, I don’t know if Anakin could or would do the same.

He also lacks the defensive skills as he regularly gets tagged by magna guards in 1v1s and 2v1’s.

More importantly I think that his form 5 lacks the mobility and acrobatic nature of Kenobis form 4 and thus he will have trouble switching between both opponents and maul and savage could exploit the mobility weakness.

Kenobi could doge their coordinated attacks because of the acrobatic nature of form 4.

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Seemorebutts94

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Anakin beats Maul quicker than Savage beats Ahsoka.

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@hellothere5432: I won’t respond to this since we CLEARLY have different options on these combatants and will never come to an agreement, however I am not pushing maul savage. I think they are equals with different strengths and weaknesses. By feats I would favour savage though.

And I already debunked the maul vs kenobi stuff 1000 times, I can’t be bothered to do it again.

Thank you for contributing though:)

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@conterrum2k: while I do think Maul can give him contention, Anakin just wins nearly every time; and while Rage amped Savage is a problem I just don’t see him beating Ahsoka without it and being that their duel would be concluded by fatal means I don’t think he’ll have a chance to use it. I feel Ahsoka would be too shifty for him in the right environment.

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The Zabrak duo with some difficulty. Ahsoka is a non-factor and S5 Anakin is pre-prime by a significant margin, I don't recall anything really impressive from him.

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@uhu123: S5 Anakin is more powerful than S4 Anakin who could contend with Dooku. He also ragdolled Ventress. Not saying that he solos this, but with Ahsoka's help it should be a good fight.

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Leaning towards the dark siders.

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@cv48: Why if I may ask? :)

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@hellothere5432:

I am mostly talking about season 4 to early season 5 Maul. I’ll actually do a blog on how they are equally strong until season 5 in the future. The statements are one thing but what we see onscreen is another.

People told me not to engage in conversations with u, but I don’t want to be mean. However pls don’t expect me to go over the same things 10000x times.

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@uhu123:

What has Maul done by season 5 that puts him above Anakin who has regularly contended with Dooku?

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#30  Edited By Greysentinel365

@swlover782002:

He contended with Dooku due to being rage-amped

That's never been confirmed. And it's rather irrelevant as S3 Anakin matched Dooku and pushed him back regardless. Leaving him out of breath even with Magnaguard backup. This is also not taking into account Anakins constant meteoric rise in power anyway. This isn't even that inconsistent as Anakin also pushed Dooku in the movie as well.

as during S6 Dooku was still outmatching Anakin in their 1v1.

Both Dooku and Anakin are credited and can be scaled to vast power growths throughout the war. Just means Dooku overtook him. They are evenly matched once more in Dark Disciple.

IIRC that was S6 Anakin.

Nope. Ahsoka arc is end of S5

Regardless, ragdolling amped Kenobi >> ragdolling Ventress.

I fail to see how ragdolling an exhausted Kenobi with only his "weak" passive shield up

"Come, my apprentice," Maul said to Savage. "This plan has failed, but we will have another opportunity." He and his wounded brother raced for the landing pad. Behind them, in the gloom, an exhausted Obi-Wan gathered his energy to chase after them."

Shadow Conspiracy

Scales to dealing with an fresh Ventress. Likewise Kenobi was not amped. He just went all out. Even if you went by the EM preposition he can do that at any time. It's worth noting that Maul looked at an exhausted Kenobi (and is unaware of his pirates switching sides) and said "nah bro we have to run".

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@hellothere5432:

It happens off screen. Maul states he trained Savage in-between Early S5 and Late S5 in SC. SC also says weeks took place between Eminence and the Lawless.

Quote it.

Only logical explanation being Maul;s power increasing

Far from it. Disturbances in the force can be caused by a multitude of things and be felt over a wide series of ranges. Savage simply searching for Maul set off a galaxy wide disturbance. 13 yr old Kenobi tipped off Yoda on Coruscant by simply focusing to fight some draigons.

It's not even specifically power related another example being Yoda sensing Anakin's despair and pain in AotC. Sids could easily be sensing the upset of Mandalore, Obi-Wan's despair or Mauls pleasure. "Disturbance in the force" is one of the most ambiguous statements in SW.

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#34  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

@conterrum2k:

I don’t know if Anakin can beat the brothers in a 2v1. He never fights as smart as Kenobi does and he doesn’t have two sabers here.

I don't see two sabers being an advantage -- it's generally symbolic, or a way for the writers to make a more flashy, less repetitive scene. If the given Jedi was truly more proficient or efficient with two sabers as opposed to one, that ought to be their default equipment. If it's not, then they aren't.

As for fighting smart, it was simply Kenobi's lightsaber skill that so decisively eclipsed the brothers. Gallia's murder brings out Kenobi's courage, gives him the focus necessary to apply his skill -- and with his skill, Kenobi proves their superior:

Filoni: So Obi-Wan rushed out there, didn't realize that Savage Opress was there, thought he was just gonna be fighting some deranged guy, wasn't even sure it was Darth Maul -- thought it could be someone claiming to be Darth Maul -- gets there, it's the worst case scenario: not only is it Darth Maul, but he realizes that he's teamed up with Savage Opress, and he loses that fight rather quickly. He's not in the right mindset. Um, Ventress and Obi-Wan together are, are kind of stalemating them but are eventually gonna lose in that space, in that situation, um, they need to flee. Um, when you get to this episode, Obi-Wan is much more focused and ready. Not only that, when Adi Gallia dies he, he gains even more focus and has to kinda right that wrong. Um, he's a very skilled swordsman, so he's not going to lose that fight in that situation -- it's really Maul and Savage who have kind of overextended.

~ Star Wars Celebration: Clone Wars Season 5 Premiere

Kenobi created an environmental advantage, I don’t know if Anakin could or would do the same.

What leads you to the conclusion that Kenobi had an environmental advantage? They flanked him, forcing him to deal with attacks from opposing angles -- it was he who suffered from a positional disadvantage.

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And again, Kenobi's lightsaber skill is what Filoni claimed caused the duel to play out as it did.

He also lacks the defensive skills as he regularly gets tagged by magna guards in 1v1s and 2v1’s.

We haven't seen Kenobi pitted against the same opponents at the same point in the show, so it's really impossible to say whether or not Kenobi would have emerged unscathed. I recall a side-by-side battle in the unfinished Crystal Crisis arc, and although memory fails me as to how exactly the duels went, I do remember that Anakin was fighting without lethal or injurious intent. He's younger and less controlled, less experienced, so that kind of thing will be harder for him compared to Kenobi.

Regardless, I don't believe it's going to come down to defensive or offensive skills. There's almost always a healthy mix in any given fight, and most duelists will have to be similarly adept whether advancing or retreating. Kenobi was the main aggressor in his battle with the brothers -- Anakin is an even greater warrior, and he'll press them all the more.

More importantly I think that his form 5 lacks the mobility and acrobatic nature of Kenobis form 4 and thus he will have trouble switching between both opponents and maul and savage could exploit the mobility weakness.

Kenobi could doge their coordinated attacks because of the acrobatic nature of form 4.

The issue is that really, only the off-screen material tends to take into account the seven forms. The films and television don't consider them -- they are irrelevant there. Certain fighters will generally fight in a certain way, but that's more of a character association, as opposed to adherence to a single discipline.

Kenobi was just on the offensive against the brothers. Digging into that aspect of his toolset.

Earlier, you referenced Anakin getting tagged by groups of MagnaGuards. It's a given that those guards are all over the place in TCW, with inconsistent and unreliable power levels, but Anakin does repeatedly demonstrate the ability to face multiple attackers, even when surrounded:

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In the latter instance, he continues to fight them off-screen. Anakin doesn't seem to be at any particular disadvantage, facing multiple foes. If he sustains a glancing cut, there's no indication that this isn't just the particular skill of those enemies, rather than a lack of mobility on his part.

The brothers can hold their own for a time, but if they're no match Obi-Wan, Anakin is going to blaze through them.

As for Savage Opress:

@conterrum2k said:

@lord_tenebrous: Thank you for the analysis. I do agree that Savage stands along side Maul.

He also performs much better against Kenobi.

I think the go between Ventress Savage and S.4 Maul is very close with Ventress being the most skilled, Sagave the most powerful and Maul the Smartest fighter.

In fights he almost always does the work for Maul:

Against the Jedi duo in the revival he gains the upper hand in his opponent before Maul, who can only kill his enemy when she wants to save her friend.

He kills Adi Gallia before Maul dies anything against Kenobi, turning it into a 2v1.

He tanks Kenobis kicks before Maul desperately uses the force on Kenobi after he got pounded into a defensive stance by the former.

He stalemated Ventress on the turtle tanker while Maul got his ass beat u til he unbalanced a hindered Kenobi.

After Sidious KO’s Maul he can fully concentrate on Savage and kill him. Not that the brothers could compete with Sidious by any means but still.

Only against Master Judd does he not perform better than Maul.

He is by war the more efficient and effective fighter.

He also kills more Jedi.

I concur that Savage is up there, but I believe it owes to his portrayal from season to season rather than general accomplishments and lore. How powerful he was in season 3, having just been introduced, not only eclipses, but directly outperforms anything he manages later on. Anything Maul manages later on. If you treat season 3 Savage as a separate character, he is just more dangerous than TCW Maul or season 5 Savage.

And that is, I believe, because at this point Savage was hyped up as the show's newest major villain. The next big bad guy. He had to be a threat to our heroes. Not only that, but he was created to substitute for (Episode I) Darth Maul. Once Maul actually arrives, Savage's character is sidelined, and his ever-diminishing power reflects his reduced standing in the show.

In season 3, Savage Opress repeatedly goes head-to-head with Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker -- not to mention, he handily outmatches Jedi Masters:

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And those brief rage surges? Incredible power:

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Savage does not enjoy this level of portrayal again. He goes on to be outfought by Asajj, Obi-Wan, and Maul, individually -- beyond decisively, in the case of the latter two.

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Asajj is inferior -- if indeed by just a little -- to Obi-Wan or Anakin. Obi-Wan alone, clearly, is beneath a force consisting of himself and Anakin.

You mention Maul and Savage's bout with Finn Ertay and the Nikto Jedi. While Maul was outmaneuvered by Ertay, I see this more-so as confirmation that Savage's trouncing wasn't because Maul had reached some top tier level of ability. He still found a challenge in obscure Jedi:

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I agree that Savage competing with someone of Adi Gallia's calibre should establish him as up there with Maul, seeing as how Gallia is not only a High Councilor, but a Jedi who has repeatedly held her own against General Grievous -- one of Kenobi's regular challengers. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Savage to accomplish that at this stage. Are Gallia's prior achievements not being considered here? Forgotten, even, as she's a minor character whose only purpose in this episode was to die? Is Savage a simple enough, brutish warrior that he's really only at his best in a first-time encounter? Who knows?

What we know is that Kenobi continues to struggle with Grievous after this episode, and Maul, with Pre Vizsla and Ahsoka Tano:

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We had a, a pretty big strategy meeting about how we could force Vizsla into the fight, so that we get this one-on-one battle, and really show the Mandalorian armor at work against someone that has the Force.

This swordfight -- that's a whole act, practically. Do it right, make it exciting, that's, that's a whole act, because the fans of Pre Vizsla are gonna mob me at Celebration in the future, if, if Vizsla goes down too easily. This is not gonna be Boba Fett into the Sarlaac pit.

Vizsla's gonna unload everything he's got, at Maul, to try and win this fight.

When I told John Favreau what was gonna happen, uh he was thrilled, he was like 'Wow I never, never in a million years guessed that Darth Maul would take me on.' I'm like 'Yeah, how about that.'

The challenge was out there, to make an incredible lightsaber fight in a way we'd never seen it before; mixing in concussive weapons, laser darts... all kinds of things.

...

This was all, rapid fire. It really I think came together in this fight, for something that was really remarkable and memorable on our show. It was without a doubt the best fight, we had ever done.

~ Dave Filoni, "Shades of Reason" Featurette

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"When Ahsoka pauses and struggles at the break of the fight, it was really meant to portray the toll it took on her to compete against Maul. I knew Maul had to lose this fight, but I didn't want to make it easy. I wanted it to take a lot out of Ahsoka to compete at his level... Still, it should be difficult for Ahsoka, and it should take all of her focus and the ability to control her fear to allow her to defeat Maul in the end."

~ Dave Filoni

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Savage's most impressive achievement is in season 3, where he proves capable of handling Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously. In season 4, he can contend with Obi-Wan and Asajj, but they demonstrate greater skill. In season 5, he competes with Adi Gallia, though she too demonstrates greater skill. And that feat would fit in rather nicely with his season 4 portrayal. The issue is that he gets thrashed by Obi-Wan and Maul in season 5. Following this, Savage's only other lightsaber battle is against Darth Sidious, who wasn't exactly serious. But within that realm of toying, Savage seems to do worse, sustaining two kicks compared to Maul's one.

All in all? I would give S3 Savage a decisive edge over TCW Maul. S4 Savage can compete, but I think he loses a majority. Maul should be practically as skilled and powerful as Asajj, only more durable, and stronger. S5 Savage? Consistently, he goes down.

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@lord_tenebrous: Interesting. I honestly agree with 90% of what you say on Kenobi. I was talking about shadow Conspiracy, however most of the maul and savage vs Kenobi fights has been rewritten anyway so he is simply outmatching the brothers on screen.

It contradicts a lot with the episode.

For the two sabers: I guess it you a defensive advantage since you can block more easily. However Kenobi is not a jar’Kai user and switching to an offensive stance is pretty much offsets the advantage of two blades since he doesn’t fight in his usual defensive stance. This, again is more important in shadow Conspiracy as in canon he was simply better and more skilled.

Form 5s mobility disadvantage was mentioned by Dooku in the rots novelisation.

With Anakin I think the problem would be that he gets tagged by the guards, one tag from maul or savage and he probably goes down.

I don’t know if his defense is up there at this point.

I already made a post that discusses why the magna guards are inconsistent, however this doesn’t really matter here since he gets tagged pretty much every single time he goes against them. However this could just be Anakin jobbing.

Overall I think Anakin could probably pull a win if he doesn’t get complacent and put on the defensive. Savage and mauls pressure will probably be too much for him. He needs to win early to mid fight or at least take one of them out. I don’t see him winning in a prolonged engagement

I will probably do a blog on savage in the future. I think one can find balance in his power level throughout the show.

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Team 1

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I assume you mean chicken leg Maul as there's next to no power difference between any of his S5 appearances?

Anakin can high diff solo. But Ahsoka is at best an excellent distraction. That being said it's very even split.

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#42  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous
@conterrum2k said:

@lord_tenebrous: Interesting. I honestly agree with 90% of what you say on Kenobi. I was talking about shadow Conspiracy, however most of the maul and savage vs Kenobi fights has been rewritten anyway so he is simply outmatching the brothers on screen.

It contradicts a lot with the episode.

For the two sabers: I guess it you a defensive advantage since you can block more easily. However Kenobi is not a jar’Kai user and switching to an offensive stance is pretty much offsets the advantage of two blades since he doesn’t fight in his usual defensive stance. This, again is more important in shadow Conspiracy as in canon he was simply better and more skilled.

Form 5s mobility disadvantage was mentioned by Dooku in the rots novelisation.

With Anakin I think the problem would be that he gets tagged by the guards, one tag from maul or savage and he probably goes down.

I don’t know if his defense is up there at this point.

I already made a post that discusses why the magna guards are inconsistent, however this doesn’t really matter here since he gets tagged pretty much every single time he goes against them. However this could just be Anakin jobbing.

Overall I think Anakin could probably pull a win if he doesn’t get complacent and put on the defensive. Savage and mauls pressure will probably be too much for him. He needs to win early to mid fight or at least take one of them out. I don’t see him winning in a prolonged engagement

I will probably do a blog on savage in the future. I think one can find balance in his power level throughout the show.

You know, I believe I've come to see the balance in Savage Opress' various battles. While I still maintain that overall, seasons 4-5 Savage Opress is not treated as the major threat he first was in season 3, his power level remains more or less the same. It is not so simple as S3 Savage ~ Anakin & Obi-Wan, while S5 Savage <<< Obi-Wan.

Fact is, Savage Opress is no swordmaster -- a juggernaut and a powerhouse, yes, but his skills as a warrior aren't all that complex. He is not the kind of fighter with "astonishing" skills. What makes him the threat that he is would be his immense power, both physical and spiritual. He is trained to wield a lightsaber, but it really just serves as a more physical channel for his hatred. It is not an art, but an outlet.

If Darth Tyranus is a combat artist, then Savage is a bulldozer. He is very dangerous, very powerful, but much more brutal and vicious -- he is a savage force. His own primary episode is entitled "Monster". Described as a "creature" by Count Dooku, and a "reckless, impulsive animal" by Obi-Wan Kenobi:

Clone Commando: There were no survivors on Devaron. Everyone was killed -- including Master Halsey and his Padawan.

Adi Gallia: In the past, only Dooku's assassin was capable of such an effort. But she was presumed dead at the battle of Sullust.

Plo Koon: Not everything is what it seems. There may be a new threat. Someone -- or something -- has eluded us. Perhaps a newly appointed Sith Lord.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: This is not the work of a Sith Lord or a Jedi, but of a reckless, impulsive animal.

...

Count Dooku: I can sense him, Grievous. That creature, Savage Opress, is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes.

General Grievous: You consider him a threat?

Count Dooku: He is a threat to all of us -- even the Jedi.

This is why he is described by Dave Filoni as a "monster". Savage Opress has this innate potential in him, like Luke Skywalker, and when he is forced through this grueling series of trials by the Nightsisters, subsequently subjected to their magicks, this potential is awakened, flowered -- Savage is "perverted" into a "monstrous Frankenstein", forged by "pretty gruesome acts":

Interviewer: So I wonder, then, how that relates to Savage Opress, because it didn't appear that Savage actually had strong Force abilities before he was transformed into a cold-hearted killing machine by the spells of the Nightsisters -- yet, he was trained as a Sith. Right.So, using those steps, you would have to think that the Nightsisters are actually tapping into the Force because it was via their spells, their magic, that Opress became what he became, and something trainable by Dooku.

Filoni: Yeah, you could say that. I mean, I can see where you would, would definitely think that. There is also the possibility that when Ventress puts Savage through the trial -- before he becomes the monster -- he's the one in the arena that displays the ability to actually, um, not just outthink her, but anticipate her. He starts to anticipate things before they happen; he listens, he moves, he predicts. Y'know I don't think this is, um, very different in a lot of ways than Luke Skywalker -- y'know, he might have had a lot of natural ability flying in T-16s but, y'know, no one was out there thinking "this kid's moving things with his mind and he's, y'know, a bit crazy". Um, sometimes when, y'know, believe it's a matter of convictions--if Luke starts to believe in himself, he gets training, he can suddenly start to move rocks, and he enters a larger world.

So I think that Ventress through that beatdown process of the Nightbrothers, kind of separated out the strongest of them -- maybe one that had the most Force potential -- and then, there's an awakening process for when he's kind of perverted into this kind of monstrous Frankenstein. I don't think that the Nightsisters can necessarily imbue someone with the Force, but the Force through midi-chlorians is something that's naturally bound to every living thing. Um, I think it's possible that it could make that flower inside of him, kind of grow that potential a bit.

~ Dave Filoni, Weekly ForceCast Interviews

And because he's drawing on the dark side -- the quick and easy path to strength -- he is able to amass a lot of power. Savage is able to achieve this level of power faster than you're supposed to, and in terms of narrative, this process is accelerated by the need to quickly introduce a dangerous villain for the Jedi. Savage becomes this powerful being, but he's not knowledgeable -- he's an "unleashed monster", a "brute force of nature", a "large, unchained animal". A "weapon" that's "confused and damaged", trained to a "pretty poor degree":

"He takes the quick and easy path by tapping into his hatred and his malice, and he's very forged out of, y'know, pretty gruesome acts, and so he's instantly able to get a certain level of power quicker, and attain it faster than we would see someone taking, y'know, the longer road of being a Jedi, and using things, uh, for knowledge and defense. But Savage Opress under Dooku, y'know, we had to accelerate the process, of course, through our animated series to make it believable that he as a combatant could take out Jedi, but part of the point of being a powerful evil being is he, um, is taking that quick and easy path, and he amasses a lot of power, but he lacks knowledge. So he's a brute force of nature, he is a monster, y'know unleashed, and now he'll be trained to a pretty poor degree by Dooku. Um, so he's just a weapon in the galaxy that's confused and damaged at this point."

~ Dave Filoni, Weekly ForceCast Interviews

Interviewer: So I guess if you're Sith, and you have an apprentice who doesn't kill you, you are considered something as a failure, as far as being a Sith goes.

Filoni: Haha, but no, I think you just outfox your apprentice. I mean, that's the thing -- y'know, how well you trained them. I made it clear that Dooku was keeping certain things from Savage Opress -- there was no doubt. He wasn't going to teach him how to deflect lightning onto your saber, how to focus your mind to make that happen. I wanted to impress upon people that, y'know, it's not really as simple as just holding it up, and the lightning attracts to the blade. It's actually--it takes some, uh, focus to do that, so it's, it's a smart thing by Dooku because he's not sure about this guy yet. So he needs certain things to be able to keep him in check, 'cause he's a pretty large, unchained animal at the end of the day.

~ Dave Filoni, Weekly ForceCast Interviews

Savage Opress is not some scheming Sith Lord like Darth Maul, nor is he a sophisticated Jedi Master like, say, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Unlike them, he hasn't been trained since childhood in the Sith ways or Jedi arts. Savage is a ruthless warrior slave from an undeveloped, dangerous world, who is warped by sorcery into a hulking monster of a Zabrak -- his mind twisted and damaged by magicks, hatred, rage.

He lacks rigorous years of training, but compensates with years of brutal trauma, culminating in his current monstrous state. Savage Opress does not engage the Jedi in a contest of mastery of the Force and lightsaber -- he hurls himself at the enemy with overwhelming ferocity, dauntless and relentless, battering them with his titanic power and physical prowess. In this regard, Savage is similar to the Hulk -- he's incredibly powerful, he's this major threat, but he lacks knowledge and discipline:

Interviewer: Well that's good news, because we are of course huge fans of watching Palpatine/Sidious work his magic behind the scenes, set everything up just the way he wants it to be. Um, and a guy who's really involved in that is, uh, Count Dooku. And Count Dooku -- here's a Jedi, a former Jedi, who has left the Order, and hooked up with the Separatists, and the dark side, because he is--they call him an idealist, and I believe that's a big part of what makes him do what he does. But, what I'm wondering is, how will the return of Darth Maul affect Count Dooku and his relationship with Darth Sidious?

Filoni: Well, well, I mean you give a fair enough question. Um, we don't answer that directly in season 5 -- we kind of imply a little bit of it. We answer a portion of that, um, it's all, y'know, the motion of the future. Y'know, that gets brought up -- I don't wanna give away too much, but, y'know, there are only two ever. And, there always seems to be--you can have two, and you can have two with a pending. But you can't really have outright three, and four, and play off.

Interviewer: And that's what we have, isn't it? We have, we have Sidious, Dooku, Maul, Opress, and Savage--and Ventress, and Ventress. Yeah, Ventress.

Filoni: Well, Ventress is out. Ventress is, she's--

Interviewer: Has she abandoned the dark side? Has she abandoned the dark side, is what you're saying?

Filoni: Well, she's definitely not gonna be a Sith. I mean, you can be involved in the dark side, but you're not necessarily a Sith. I think that's--a Sith is an Order of something -- y'know, you're trained in that way of thinking. But, just because you're part of the dark side doesn't mean you're necessarily a Sith. I mean, if you're kind of a feral person using the Force, untrained and undisciplined, you might not have heard of the Jedi or the Sith. You don't know what you are. Y'know, but you might regret the tendencies that you have because it's the dark side.

So, being a Jedi or a Sith, you have had a certain amount of training and knowledge passed on to you through an Order. And, so she's kind of on the out, because the Sith don't recognize her anymore -- in fact, they tried to kill her. And, she never really achieved what she thought she might have wanted, and Mother Talzin -- she saw her, in, the, the "Massacre" episode and is basically telling her, "You're gonna abandon all that -- become a true Nightsister".

So, if she's anything at this point, she thought she was gonna become a Nightsister again, but then they got eliminated. So, she, y'know, was wandering off, and now she's basically a bounty hunter, trying to figure out what her future is. And then, Savage is a very poorly trained dark side wielder. He's all, he's all aggression and power -- he's kind of like the Hulk -- but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know-how.

Maul is a super dangerous threat because he's been trained for years. He's really adept, but he's broken -- so he's kind of in the Vader realm, and, y'know, he's a bit severed from what he knew, which was being, having a master. But he's well trained by in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation. So, again I don't wanna give too much away, but, y'know, you're gonna see a lot more of this in season 5. Um, with Maul, and, uh, y'know, and other bad guys.

~ Dave Filoni, The Clone Wars Supervising Director

Again, a stark contrast to Maul, who has been trained for years in all manner of skills, and he's really adept. They both represent considerable threats to the Jedi, but in different ways. That doesn't make either far more formidable than the other in a fight -- as always, context matters.

And so, we'll examine Savage's various fights, discovering how seeming inconsistencies in his power level really aren't inconsistent at all.

On Devaron, Savage is pitted against -- in all likelihood -- your average Jedi Master, a Roonan named Halsey. The whole scene contrasts Savage's tactics with that of the Jedi -- shoving aside even his allies, Savage barrels toward the enemy without a thought for strategy. He muscles through their blasterfire and just beats them aside:

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Master Halsey and even his Padawan, Knox, on the other hand, defeat their foes with Jedi-typical precision and agility:

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When confronted by a single foe, Master Halsey continues to demonstrate his Jedi heritage, employing elegant acrobatics and lightsaber flourishes:

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And then Halsey goes on the offensive, performing what is, again, a most Jedi-like attack. Each maneuver flows gracefully into the next as he goes first for Savage's head, then for his legs, and so on:

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But Halsey's technique gets him nowhere, for Savage anticipates or evades each lightsaber slash, then catches Halsey's wrist. Savage squeezes, and Halsey is forced to drop his lightsaber:

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Savage employs his own weapon, stabbing hard at the unarmed Halsey in hopes of finishing him off. Halsey is too quick, however, dodging the attack, striking Savage's own weapon-arm, then quite literally beating Savage to the punch. Continuing to demonstrate skill and agility, Halsey performs a series of kicks to Savage's torso, using his adversary's body as a springboard, and then he throws himself into two whirling, aerial kicks:

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But as with before, Halsey's technique gets him nowhere. What Savage does not simply tank, he evades yet again:

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And now Halsey's momentum has played out. The instant Halsey lands, Savage catches him with a blow to the neck with his huge weapon. Savage keeps going, hitting Halsey's unarmed, much smaller figure with a blow to the rips, a knee to the abdomen, and finally, knocking him to the ground:

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Master Halsey had years of Jedi training. He was very adept, very graceful, and very agile. But Savage was too strong and too powerful for Halsey's more sophisticated techniques to be successful. And yes, it was explicitly Savage's power that made him someone capable of taking out Jedi, even though he lacked their know-how:

"He takes the quick and easy path by tapping into his hatred and his malice, and he's very forged out of, y'know, pretty gruesome acts, and so he's instantly able to get a certain level of power quicker, and attain it faster than we would see someone taking, y'know, the longer road of being a Jedi, and using things, uh, for knowledge and defense. But Savage Opress under Dooku, y'know, we had to accelerate the process, of course, through our animated series to make it believable that he as a combatant could take out Jedi, but part of the point of being a powerful evil being is he, um, is taking that quick and easy path, and he amasses a lot of power, but he lacks knowledge."

~ Dave Filoni, Weekly ForceCast Interviews

In Star Wars: The Clone Wars continuity, Jedi are are expert fighters, with considerable experience under their belts and many years of training. However, they have a marked vulnerability to more unconventional fighters whose approach to combat is comparatively ruthless. Fighters who aren't so elegant and civilized, but very nearly as dangerous. This gives no-holds-barred brawlers such as General Grievous an advantage:

"He's not gonna play fair, he's gonna, he's gonna do what he needs to do to win, and that's what makes Grievous kind of a challenge for the Jedi, because they're more used to an elegant style of fighting, and, and fighting on a very fair level."

~ Dave Filoni, The Clone Wars Supervising Director

And this is why Obi-Wan Kenobi's opinion of the Devaron slaughter is that Savage Opress could not be a Jedi or a Sith. Rather, the work of a "reckless, impulsive animal".

Now we switch Savage over to a lightsaber, and pit him against -- again, presumably -- even more powerful Jedi than Master Halsey. Jedi like Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi. Savage hurls himself at them, forcing them back and back -- the duel itself spans over a minute, mostly off-screen:

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But this is all Savage can accomplish -- he does not actually overwhelm them blade-to-blade. He can maintain an almost unstoppable offensive, holding the upper hand thereby, but he lacks the lightsaber skill and experience to compliment his overwhelming power and physical prowess. A lesser though still formidable Jedi may find themselves battered to the point of defeat, but Savage is now competing against the top Jedi -- exceptional even among the elite.

It takes a powerful surge of Savage's rage, bolstered by the beating he receives at the blasters of the droid forces, to generate enough raw power to flatten his enemies:

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And in season 5, Savage Opress hurls himself at yet other top Jedi Master -- High Councilor Adi Gallia. As with Anakin and Obi-Wan, Savage forces her back and batters her, but he never succeeds in overwhelming her blade-to-blade. It is a blast of his immense power that stuns her:

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But as far as lightsaber combat goes, I reiterate that Savage isn't as proficient as the highly-trained Jedi or Sith. He is capable with the blade, but his advantage is in his overwhelming raw power and unnatural physical strength -- the unrestrained ferocity with which he assails his opponents proves the most effective application of these attributes.

His advantage is also his weakness, however -- when you get to a certain level of combat mastery, even Savage's powerful assault won't cut it at the end of the day. See Adi Gallia, Obi-Wan, and Anakin. And the brutish simplicity of Savage's tactics are going to be at their best in a first-time encounter. If a more skilled and experienced opponent is being pitted against Savage, but there's no shock factor -- they're familiar with Savage's approach -- well, they'll be able to better apply their superior understanding of lightsaber combat.

And now we get to Darth Maul versus Savage Opress. But there are a few things to consider before we look at the fight. First, Maul has been partnered with Savage for some time now -- he is not unfamiliar with his monster of a brother's brute force tactics. Second, Maul intentionally provoked this conflict by asserting himself as the dominant half of their partnership -- Savage did not truly desire to fight Maul, but if he didn't want to be subservient, he had to. And third, Maul has also taken the quick path to power. He is ferocious, ruthless, and powerful from his dark side devotion as well, but unlike Savage, he's highly trained. Maul may not be so overwhelmingly powerful and strong, but he is cut from the same cloth. The difference between them is that Maul is controlled. So if you think about it, he represents a very good counter to someone like Savage.

In summary, Savage's usual overwhelming approach is neutered by the fact that he's not going all-out, and his opponent knows how he fights. The icing on the cake is that as characters, someone like Maul is really just a poor matchup for Savage.

Now we look at the fight itself. You'll notice that Maul isn't his usual ultra-aggressive self. He doesn't attack, and he doesn't go head-to-head with Savage like he does with the Jedi. Maul is not forced away -- he backs away. Maul does not necessarily meet Savage's attacks -- he turns them aside. Savage continues with his wide, powerful swings, but while he is allowed to take the initiative, he is not permitted to settle into his usual barrage. Maul is initially passive, but he abruptly rushes inside Savage's reach, simultaneously evading the swing and launching his own attack. Maul makes his first and only attack count -- he intercepts Savage's swing hard at the joint, then leverages the hold, twisting Savage's arm through his wrist:

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It is an impressive tactical display -- a successful one, too. And this is where I believe many -- in the past, myself included -- tend to miss the forest for the trees. The focus is on "Oh wow, Maul quickly beat Savage" rather than the details of their match. Really, it's no different in principle than the brief bout between Obi-Wan and Maul in Star Wars Rebels. Savage is not overpowered, straight-up outfought in a head-to-head clash. He is outmaneuvered and outfoxed by a more cunning -- ultimately more skilled -- and experienced foe who knows what he's up against.

This match cannot truly be compared with the other fights Maul and Savage engage in, because the circumstances and approach are very different. The situation is different, and called for a different strategy.

Adi Gallia, for example, lacking Maul's familiarity with this kind of adversary, entering a no-holds-barred duel to the death, and being an aggressive swordswoman herself, approached the battle with Savage as she does with General Grievous. When Savage rushes to engage her, she rushes to respond, and they meet head-to-head. Savage batters her away as he did Obi-Wan and Anakin, but she does not give an inch she doesn't have to. He pushes her back gradually, blow by blow. Likewise, Maul rushes Obi-Wan, and they clash in the exact same manner -- head-to-head, aggressive, fighting for the forward momentum:

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What's notable is that despite this, Gallia eventually manages to apply her superior skill, and scores a kick to Savage's lower leg. She then discovers the other issue -- Savage is a physical juggernaut, and she struck the wrong area.

As for Asajj Ventress, she essentially accomplishes what Maul does -- getting inside Savage's reach and landing inherently non-fatal blows. She shares Maul's familiarity with Savage and the dark side, but while she lacks the restricted circumstances of their fight for dominance -- for Savage was actually gunning for the kill against Ventress -- she had another circumstance to compensate. Namely, the lack of space in their environment, which would benefit her limber frame while impeding Savage's heavy-handed, ranged fighting style.

Ventress lands hit after hit against Savage, and rapidly at that -- she outpaces Maul's own skill advantage. The issue is that Maul made his single hit count, whereas Ventress has not really adapted her fighting style to suit Savage's unnatural durability. She just keeps hitting him in hopes of putting him down, and inevitably he lands a hit of his own. I mean, she is powerful too, and her hits inflict noticeable damage on Savage, but they don't put him down. She gets him to a point where he is vulnerable, where she can cut him down. But she is not quick enough with her slash, and the attempted death blow leaves her exposed:

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Maul and Ventress are practically equal in strength in the dark side and combat skill in TCW, but while no Savage in terms of mental approach, Ventress also tends to be too vicious for her own good. When he has his focus, due to his Sith training Maul is more cunning and calculated than Ventress, and we see that reflected in the different results of their battles with Savage.

Now we go to Obi-Wan. He too has the expected performance against Savage in a first-time encounter, alongside Anakin himself, and we've already gone over that. But while he is not a fellow dark sider like Ventress and Maul, he has another edge -- Obi-Wan clashes swords with Savage more than anyone else. He is perhaps the most familiar with Savage's tactics, and really the most skilled and experienced adversary that Savage has fought more than once.

As I said, we've already covered their duel in season 3. They battle again in season 4, and because Obi-Wan's focus is lagging in this situation, Savage rather quickly beats him down -- even so, this is another experience against Savage's tactics under Obi-Wan's belt:

Filoni: So Obi-Wan rushed out there, didn't realize that Savage Opress was there, thought he was just gonna be fighting some deranged guy, wasn't even sure it was Darth Maul -- thought it could be someone claiming to be Darth Maul -- gets there, it's the worst case scenario: not only is it Darth Maul, but he realizes that he's teamed up with Savage Opress, and he loses that fight rather quickly. He's not in the right mindset.

~ Star Wars Celebration: Clone Wars Season 5 Premiere

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Later on in the episode, while Obi-Wan still isn't at his best -- mentally or physically -- he engages Savage again, and while battered nevertheless, he holds his own much better than before:

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Yet more experience with Savage. Flash forward to season 5 when, having recovered a bit from his ordeal, Obi-Wan is a lot more mentally sharp. He is more capable of applying his superior swordsmanship -- and now he can handle the combined assault of both Savage and Maul:

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Even more experience. Adi Gallia's murder snaps Obi-Wan back into focus, and in the tunnels, with time aplenty on their hands, the real fight begins. The ferocity, strength and power of Savage is now irrelevant -- Obi-Wan is able to successfully apply his greater mastery of combat to the point of eclipsing both brothers. He thoroughly outmaneuvers them at almost every turn, and nothing stops him from demonstrating the proper skill gap between himself and Savage:

Filoni: Um, when you get to this episode, Obi-Wan is much more focused and ready. Not only that, when Adi Gallia dies he, he gains even more focus and has to kinda right that wrong. Um, he's a very skilled swordsman, so he's not going to lose that fight in that situation -- it's really Maul and Savage who have kind of overextended.

~ Star Wars Celebration: Clone Wars Season 5 Premiere

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Even when power and sheer strength have at long last left Obi-Wan pinned to the wall, the more skilled and experienced Jedi Master spies an opening, exploits it, and Savage is left without an arm:

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Overall, Savage Opress is an incredibly dangerous combatant during the Clone Wars, and has the right combination of abilities to hardpress pretty much everyone under the level of Master Yoda and Darth Sidious. In many cases, he is capable of overwhelming the Jedi, and even the occasional dark sider, despite the superior skill of said opponents. But his advantages are not present in every situation, against every kind of opponent, and given time, the more skilled fighters will figure him out.

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Greysentinel365

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I assume you mean chicken leg Maul as there's next to no power difference between any of his S5 appearances?

Anakin can high diff solo. But Ahsoka is at best an excellent distraction. That being said it's very even split.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#44  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous

As for the outcome of this match, I still believe that Anakin Skywalker would solo. He's very nearly in his prime overall, and already possessed lightsaber mastery noticeably beyond that of the Zabrak brothers as early as season 1. I find it unlikely that Savage can replicate his offensive here, given that Anakin will now be relatively familiar with Savage's seemingly overwhelming power and strength. Most notably, in season 4 Anakin underwent considerable growth in raw power, so I'm uncertain as to whether Savage even has his power advantage anymore.

Savage would blaze through young Ahsoka, who has never met him before and had no chance against General Grievous. As badly as Adi Gallia, Obi-Wan and Anakin were pressed, Ahsoka will be overwhelmed all the more. She lacks -- by a fairly noticeable gap -- their experience, skill, and power. Someone like Savage is not a good matchup for her.

Regarding Maul, he would take Ahsoka on the back of an extended and relatively difficult fight. A lesser version of herself was able to compete with a more agile Maul -- however, while S7 Maul may be able to employ his preferred fighting style, early S5 Maul is less mentally broken. I think he'll be able to finish the job this time, and without pause.

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JoinTheDarkseid

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SW debaters never seem to take into account that maul is the second biggest jobber in fiction after Darkseid