@commanderxeon: I personally can’t speak for Legends since I never followed it that closely, but for canon I’d say Obi-Wan. He was fighting a superior version of Anakin during RotS, even if it’s arguable he was hindered. I’d have to look back at season 4 to remember what Anakin did, but I think he had a couple low showings in some of the arcs.
Canon: Kenobi wins all rounds, he showed comparability to S6 Anakin force wise and I don’t think Anakin is Dooku level yet until after season 5 where he grows vastly
Canon: Kenobi wins all rounds, he showed comparability to S6 Anakin force wise and I don’t think Anakin is Dooku level yet until after season 5 where he grows vastly
Are you referencing when they both resisted Dooku’s force push?
Regarding what the show itself would generally portray, I'd favour Obi-Wan Kenobi more often than not -- exceptionally tough match, no matter the season. While Anakin Skywalker is the greater swordsman as early as season 1, at the end of day Obi-Wan knows him quite well. The Jedi Master is more experienced and controlled -- this, I think, will leave him in the lead, as it ended up achieving on Mustafar.
Kenobi. All of the factors that favored him in the Mustafar duel (namely greater experience, superior tactical mindset, extensive familiarity with Anakins form and a form advantage over him) would still be present while this iteration of Anakin is neither as skilled nor remotely as powerful as his ROTS version.
The incident on Mustafar required Vader to be hindered to all hell for it to even be a fair fight. And even then, he was still pushing Kenobi's shit in:
And even landed a kick after Obi Wan manages to escape what's shown above. And lands a kick on Kenobi earlier in the fight.
Vader was tagging this man even when he was a mental wreck. Kenobi got lucky that Anakin wasn't thinking straight during the High-Ground moment.
The Anakin he's fighting here, while brash, isn't as dumb as Mustafar Vader was. Who was essentially fighting Kenobi after getting a lobotomy.
Anakin after a good fight. This version should scale above his AoTC iteration. Which managed to press AoTC Dooku in Sabers. Who essentially negg-diffed Kenobi. And Kenobi is less likely to resort to Force power over Sabers. And even if he did. He can't really do much to Anakin, that the latter can't replicate.
Legends: Anakin molests him.
Canon: Anakin takes this 7-8/10 after a struggle. Obi Wan only manages to stay long due to knowledge of Anakin's Saber form. Which won't really help much for anything other than defense. Kenobi can maybe win 2 rounds if Anakin woke up feeling like a retard, today.
The incident on Mustafar required Vader to be hindered to all hell for it to even be a fair fight.
Anakins hinderance is impossible to quantify, and I fail to see how it is relevant to begin with. S4 Anakin is vastly sub S6 Anakin who is vastly sub his BoROTS iteration who is still explicitly an 8 compared to MFV being a 9, with the gaps between tiers being "enormous". Kenobi also notes Vaders superiority to the version of Anakin he was familiar with. Mustafar Kenobi was at least comparable enough to Mustafar Vader that his other advantages, all of which he would still apply here, were enough to bridge the gap and eventually award him a victory.
And even then, he was still pushing Kenobi's shit in:
And even landed a kick after Obi Wan manages to escape what's shown above. And lands a kick on Kenobi earlier in the fight.
You're referring to a version of Obi-Wan who was still explicitly hampered by his feelings for Anakin. After letting go of that, he downright equalled him.
With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.
His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.
(...)
Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop.
(...)
Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.
Source: Revenge of the Sith Novelization
It should also be noted that even "hindered" Kenobi, despite his inferiority, had Anakin dead to rights via electric manipulation:
Obi-Wan had only one trick left, one that wouldn't work twice—
But it was a very good trick.
It had, after all, worked rather splendidly on Grievous...
He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.
Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free. Obi-Wan reached. Anakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. "The flaw of power is arrogance."
"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion—"
"It's not compassion," Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."
He sighed. "It's regret for the man you should have been."
Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"
Dark power bore down with his grip.
Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.
Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad.
Source: Revenge of the Sith Novelization
The Anakin he's fighting here, while brash, isn't as dumb as Mustafar Vader was.
He is also canonically a lot less skilled and powerful.
Who was essentially fighting Kenobi after getting a lobotomy.
You're overstating his mental disability. Despite his state, he still didn't make a single mistake until the very end of the duel and Obi-Wan was still equalling him this whole time.
In the end Anakin just makes a mistake, he gets too angry and makes a mistake and Obi doesn't make mistakes.
(...)
But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes.
Source: Nick Gillard, The Making of Revenge of the Sith
Anakin after a good fight. This version should scale above his AoTC iteration. Which managed to press AoTC Dooku in Sabers. Who essentially negg-diffed Kenobi. And Kenobi is less likely to resort to Force power over Sabers. And even if he did. He can't really do much to Anakin, that the latter can't replicate.
AOTC Anakin only managed to press Dooku briefly due to catching him off-guard and because of one of his Flashes of Brilliance. After Dooku composed himself he defeated him without too much trouble. I also fail to see how that is relevant given this is between RotS Kenobi vs TCW S4 Anakin, not their AOTC versions. If you refer to Dooku dismissing Kenobi on the Invisible Hand, he was explicitly noted to only be able to do that due to catching Obi-Wan off-guard.
Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.
It kicked him down from someone who could compete against Dooku, and lose. To someone who gets matched by Kenobi in Force-Power.
and I fail to see how it is relevant to begin with. S4 Anakin is vastly sub S6 Anakin who is vastly sub his BoROTS iteration who is still explicitly an 8 compared to MFV being a 9, with the gaps between tiers being "enormous".
What? Mustafar Vader is not a 9. Which would imply that Kenobi is a 9 as well. And we all know who else is in that tier. So that's false. Since we see Vader get matched by Kenobi in Force:
And RoTS Kenobi gets negged by Dooku with the Force. Who's the closest to, but not a Titan himself. While Dooku only beats base RoTS Anakin in Sabers/CQC:
There's also the issue that Kenobi could be argued to be at his absolute peak during Mustafar. And has every advantage:
Moreover, at this point in time Kenobi hadn't learned to reach the heights he had by Utapau, let alone Mustafar (easily his most powerful self):
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?""I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—""Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."
So now, facing the tornado of annihilating energy that is Grievous's attack, Obi-Wan simply is who he is.
The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a dif-ferent angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life. Not one touched him.
After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks—sixteen per second, eighteen—until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. —slice— The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it
This is elaborated on in the Mustafar duel, where Kenobi not only becomes "who he is" but also lets go of all attachments and focuses on one thing; stopping Anakin:
With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but un-stoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.
His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.
Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders.
Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the black-sand shoreline of a lake of fire.
Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.
It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.
Fire rained around them.
Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop.
Anakin came on.
Out on the tightrope of power conduit, their blades blurred even faster than before. They chopped and slashed and parried and blocked. Lava bombs thundered to the ground below, shedding drops of burning stone that scorched their robes. Smoke shrouded the planet's star, and now the only light came from the hell-glow of the lava below them and from their blades themselves. Flares of energy crackled and spat.
This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.
It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.
Personally.
Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.
Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.
The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all...Obi-Wan still loved him.
Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.
Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...
He let it go.
While Vader was clearly at his most absolute dogshit state, due to the return of the Dragon:
Anakin was also hindered by the return of the dragon and having just choked his wife and suffered an emotional betrayal, hindering him:
He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.
All things die.
Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel.
Now its poison chilled him to the bone.
Even stars burn out.
He shook himself again and strode toward the holocomm.
He would talk to his Master.
Palpatine had always helped him keep the dragon down.
On top of that, the two knew each other's forms intimately:
Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.
So what you end up getting after this information is that what could be argued as Peak Kenobi. Got matched by a severely hindered Vader in Force power. And got his shit pushed in Sabers/CQC. So unless you think Mustafar Vader is > Dooku. This is not a really good look for Obi Wan & M-Vader.
Kenobi had every advantage in that fight. He was at his peak. Had knowledge of Anakin's form. And Anakin being mentally unstable. And he still had to work for it with high difficulty. And only won because Mustafar Anakin was a special breed of idiocy.
There's also the issue of where base Anakin scales in Canon in comparison to Kenobi:
Base Anakin Skywalker already scales above Yoda in Force Power. Who performed this feat Pre-RoTS:
Mustafar Vader was some ass-cheeks when compared to base RoTS Anakin. Mustafar Vader was an idiot that would struggle against Dooku like Obi Wan did. So there's more evidence going against this Vader being a 9 than there is to support it.
I'm not saying that AoTC Anakin is = Dooku in Sabers. I know that he pressed him via a Flash of Brilliance. But that Anakin should still be below S4 Anakin due to growth. S4 Anakin might be less skilled & Powerful than his Mustafar Version. But the same goes for Kenobi here. And this Anakin won't make the same mistake as the Mustafar version, due to his mind not being hindered via 3 or 4 different reasons at the same time.
It kicked him down from someone who could compete against Dooku, and lose. To someone who gets matched by Kenobi in Force-Power.
Your reasoning is faulty. Anakin grew vastly after his fall to the dark side, so being below his peak Knightfall iteration does not prevent Mustafar Vader from being stronger than his Jedi self.
What? Mustafar Vader is not a 9.
Gillard disagrees.
Since we see Vader get matched by Kenobi in Force:
The instance you're referring to is not an equal force clash.
"OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN. Both combatants are blasted backwards onto the control panels."
Source: Revenge of the Sith Script
So Obi-Wan, after a few seconds of build-up, can accumulate enough power that the resulting backlash leads to an explosion of force energy that neither combatant is able to contain, something we also saw in the fight between Yoda and Sidious. Why is this a mark against either combatant?
And RoTS Kenobi gets negged by Dooku with the Force.
I will just post the relevant quote again, considering you seem to have missed it:
As the Count started up, Obi-Wan disengaged and ran to the second set of stairs to attack him from behind. Climbing the stairs, it cut down two of the super battle droids.
He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —
Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.
Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization
The attack had been "too sudden" because Obi-Wan did not expect Dooku to be able to deal with him and Anakin simultaneously, implying he could have deflected it if he did. There is no evidence for a gap between Kenobi and Dooku.
While Dooku only beats base RoTS Anakin in Sabers/CQC
Landing a kick =/= beating. BoROTS Anakin is already superior to Dooku in Legends.
There's also the issue that Kenobi could be argued to be at his absolute peak during Mustafar. And has every advantage
Make the argument then. Kenobi was not circumstantially amped and taking fighters at their peak unless specified is perfectly fair. All of the advantages specific to the combatants themselves to still apply to this fight.
While Vader was clearly at his most absolute dogshit state, due to the return of the Dragon
The "dragon" was present for the entirety of ROTS, with the exception of the "Zonakin" state and Operation Knightfall. It also applies to his base state.
And got his shit pushed in Sabers/CQC
By all means, show me where unhindered Kenobi was "getting his shit pushed in".
So unless you think Mustafar Vader is > Dooku.
Every version of Anakin during ROTS is superior to Dooku.
Kenobi had every advantage in that fight. He was at his peak. Had knowledge of Anakin's form.
He would still have the same advantages here. You're using a straw man argument.
And Anakin being mentally unstable.
Anakin was always unstable. This also applies to this matchup, if to a lesser extend.
There's also the issue of where base Anakin scales in Canon in comparison to Kenobi
All of my answers refer exclusively to Legends. I neither know nor care enough about Canon to make a statement.
Mustafar Vader was some ass-cheeks when compared to base RoTS Anakin. Mustafar Vader was an idiot that would struggle against Dooku like Obi Wan did. So there's more evidence going against this Vader being a 9 than there is to support it.
Feel free to prove any of that. Until you do, I think I will take the official sources over your word.
But that Anakin should still be below S4 Anakin due to growth
Why? AotC Anakin has Yoda+ levels of raw power that he can tap into with his Flashes of Brilliance. What does base TCW Anakin have on that?
S4 Anakin might be less skilled & Powerful than his Mustafar Version. But the same goes for Kenobi here
You are aware that this battle is between Revenge of the Sith Kenobi (not TCW) and TCW S4 Anakin, right? We also know that there is a vast gap between TCW Anakin and his ROTS iteration.
But Ahsoka eventually became disillusioned and left the Jedi Order, an act which Anakin regretted.
The Clone Wars continued, and Anakin became a hero and grew vastly in power.
@crclopezos: In every Anakin vs Ventress fight(besides the season 5 fight where Ventress didn’t have a lightsaber), Ventress has matched Anakin. TCW is very consistent in this case.
Kenobi. All of the factors that favored him in the Mustafar duel (namely greater experience, superior tactical mindset, extensive familiarity with Anakins form and a form advantage over him) would still be present while this iteration of Anakin is neither as skilled nor remotely as powerful as his ROTS version.
Your reasoning is faulty. Anakin grew vastly after his fall to the dark side, so being below his peak Knightfall iteration does not prevent Mustafar Vader from being stronger than his Jedi self.
He's not just below KF Vader. He's also below RoTS Anakin via his performance against a Dooku that cucked and handwaved Kenobi. While he didn't do the same to Anakin. And had to deal with him in CQC.
Gillard disagrees.
Correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't Gillard also say that AoTC Anakin can beat Maul?
He's just the choreography guy. His word isn't the end all be all.
The instance you're referring to is not an equal force clash.
"OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN. Both combatants are blasted backwards onto the control panels."
Source: Revenge of the Sith Script
Dude. That's literally proof of them being equals. One attacks. One blocks. Both get blasted. Replace Dooku with Anakin. And you'll see how different this would play out.
So Obi-Wan, after a few seconds of build-up, can accumulate enough power that the resulting backlash leads to an explosion of force energy that neither combatant is able to contain, something we also saw in the fight between Yoda and Sidious. Why is this a mark against either combatant?
Yes. And that's because both sides are equals or near equals in those fights. What you brought up proves that Kenobi was = Mustafar Vader. Which proves that he was his match in Force-Power. Which flies in the face of Dooku always resorting to Sabers against Annie, instead of ragdolling him like he does Kenobi. Unless you think Mustafar Kenobi is > Dooku in Force power.
I will just post the relevant quote again, considering you seem to have missed it:
As the Count started up, Obi-Wan disengaged and ran to the second set of stairs to attack him from behind. Climbing the stairs, it cut down two of the super battle droids.
He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —
Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.
The attack had been "too sudden" because Obi-Wan did not expect Dooku to be able to deal with him and Anakin simultaneously, implying he could have deflected it if he did. There is no evidence for a gap between Kenobi and Dooku.
I already saw the quote. And I know Kenobi could've prevented it. But that doesn't mean he's equal, or around Dooku in Force. It just means that he could've used his own force power to protect himself from the casual choke Dooku did on him. We're talking about the same guy who matched Yoda during AoTC. And was capable of semi-keeping up with Zonakin before losing badly. If you think Kenobi could replicate these feats. Then you'll need to show some damn good evidence.
Dooku is capable of humiliating Kenobi by a surprise choke, or because he's "Too clumsy & predictable" for him. Depending on the medium you use:
Which shows a clear difference between the two. Kenobi's performance is that of a jabroni in comparison to base Anakin. Who managed to at least keep up on multiple occasions against the Count in his weaker TCW versions. Kenobi's the one that always gets negged more than he keeps up.
And let's not forget how an unstable, early TCW Maul. Who is <<< TPM Maul. Due to being out of commission for 10 years. Manages to ragdoll a Kenobi stronger than the AoTC version that blocked Dooku's lightning:
So unless you think Maul is > Dooku, who could keep up with Yoda in Force power during AoTC. And who definitely got stronger from then on. Then Kenobi not being fodder to him in Force has less evidence the deeper we get. The gap is too obvious for you to deny. Especially when it's Dooku. Who's the only character close enough to Titan-tier.
And this mentally unstable Maul's performance proves how wrong Gillard's words are:
Maul duels with Post-AotC Kenobi and Adi Gallia at the same time with ease.
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 01 (2012)
Maul drives Post-AotC Kenobi back, and shows his superiority as a duelist.
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 01 (2012)
Maul is ''too powerful'' for Post-AotC Kenobi.
Hondo: ''Where is the other Jedi?'' Kenobi: ''She's... She's dead.''
Hondo: ''She's d... They are too powerful for even you? I am semi-speechless.''
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 01 (2012)
Landing a kick =/= beating. BoROTS Anakin is already superior to Dooku in Legends.
1. Landing a kick, a choke, another kick when Kenobi barely escaped the decapitation. Anakin was tagging him at least three times.
2. And yet he still requires Zonakin to beat Dooku by letting go of his fears and doubts. Which made all those years of training "A joke", While Obi-Wan gets negged like fodder. So are you trying to imply that Dooku is = Kenobi? Cause that kind of scaling clearly doesn't work without actual evidence that isn't him being able to protect himself from a casual Force-Choke, if he was faster.
Make the argument then. Kenobi was not circumstantially amped and taking fighters at their peak unless specified is perfectly fair. All of the advantages specific to the combatants themselves to still apply to this fight.
I don't need to, because we have enough evidence that I previously posted where Kenobi became "Who he is." and "Let go of all his attachments with the singular goal of: Stopping Anakin." While Vader has been hindered to all hell after killing the separatist leaders, with the return of The Dragon.
The "dragon" was present for the entirety of ROTS, with the exception of the "Zonakin" state and Operation Knightfall. It also applies to his base state.
But it was clearly not affecting him as badly as it did on Mustafar:
He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.
All things die.
Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel.
Now its poison chilled him to the bone.
Even stars burn out.
He shook himself again and strode toward the holocomm.
He would talk to his Master.
Palpatine had always helped him keep the dragon down.
The dragon filled him with a great amount of doubt and fear + the regrets of his actions, and choking his wife, kicking him down even more. So it's clear that the Dragon was doing triple his usual efforts here. You need proof to show it affecting him on this level during his base version in The Invisible Hand.
By all means, show me where unhindered Kenobi was "getting his shit pushed in".
Anakin overpowers Kenobi and chokes him while attempting to kill him with his own Saber:
If the above isn't pushing your opponent's shit in, I don't know what is. Never in Star Wars do you see someone do what Anakin did to Kenobi here. And that's ignoring the fact that Kenobi had literally every possible advantage you could wish to have against Anakin. And he still managed to end up in this position. Against an opponent who's hindered beyond belief, no less.
Every version of Anakin during ROTS is superior to Dooku.
Not unless your name is Base & Mustafar Anakin. Cause base Anakin clearly struggled and lost to Dooku. While Mustafar got matched by someone who's at his absolute peak. And still showed a below Dooku level performance. You need evidence to show that Base Anakin is above Dooku. Which flies in the face of him requiring Zonakin to take the W.
Kenobi had every advantage in that fight. He was at his peak. Had knowledge of Anakin's form.
He would still have the same advantages here. You're using a straw man argument.
How the hell am I using a strawman argument? You're the one trying to say that Dooku and Kenobi don't have a clear gap in Force power, because Kenobi could've stopped a casual Force-Choke if he was fast enough. I'm pointing at how many advantages Kenobi got and how much of a nerf Anakin had on Mustafar. And yet, the latter still pushed the former and made him work his ass off for a victory that only happened because Anakin was not mentally stable.
Kenobi won't get that advantage here. The only thing he has is knowledge about Anakin's Saber-Form. Which doesn't guarantee a win if the opponent is > you in Force. Unless you think the mentally unstable, early TCW Maul can ragdoll Legends Anakin as well.
Anakin was always unstable. This also applies to this matchup, if to a lesser extend.
Now this, is what you call a strawman argument.
Anakin is brash. Hot-headed. But claiming that he's anywhere near as retarded as Mustafar Vader is a big stretch. Maybe his AoTC iteration is. But this one is not.
All of my answers refer exclusively to Legends. I neither know nor care enough about Canon to make a statement.
The same issue is also in Legends, mate. Anakin is portrayed as a high-tier in Force. While Kenobi gets choked and ragdolled by a fresh from spider-legs Maul:
Pre-Prime Maul disarms Post-AotC Kenobi by using the Force and uses Force push.
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 4 Episode 22 (2012)
Pre-Prime Maul ragdolls Post-AotC Kenobi by using the Force.
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 4 Episode 22 (2012)
Maul penetrates Post-AotC Kenobi's defenses with the Force and slams him against the wall in the duel.
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 01 (2012)
Maul knocks Post-AotC Kenobi out with a powerful Force push and collapses the cave with the Force.
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 01 (2012)
Maul easily Force chokes and ragdolls Post-AotC Kenobi, he captures Kenobi again.
Source: The Clone Wars - Season 5 Episode 16 (2013)
Post-AotC Kenobi admits his failure against Maul.
Kenobi: ''My last encounter with Maul didn't go so well.''
Source: Darth Maul - Son of Dathomir #03 (2014)
And later on chokes a Kenobi that only survived, cause he got back-up from Plo Koon:
Hardly happening, a Maul before his peak who was still adapting to his new legs and is confirmed to be hindered due to being out of circulation for ten years, reaching his TMP level standards, totally stomped a prime Obi-Wan half year away from ROTS at much, in less than a second, only surviving thanks to his Jedi fellows. Maul even killed another Jedi Master in the middle and Obi-Wan was still sofocating for the force-choke, that remained in function until Maul leaves, and even after that, Obi-Wan was so injured that he had to abandon the mission and go to rest, he was defintely going to die If only Maul and him would have been there.
So a clear gap in the Force is pretty evident. And denying so would be denying on-screen feats that don't have any context to debunk them.
Kenobi is consistently << Maul in Force power. Let alone anywhere near Dooku-Tier. Who is as close to the Titans as you can get.
Feel free to prove any of that. Until you do, I think I will take the official sources over your word.
Official sources aren't always correct if they contradict what's shown. Or have little proof to the claims made. There's a reason a majority care less about statments without feats. Otherwise, you end up with above TPM Maul-level AoTC Anakin. Which is clearly false.
Why? AotC Anakin has Yoda+ levels of raw power that he can tap into with his Flashes of Brilliance. What does base TCW Anakin have on that?
That's only if he starts with it. Otherwise, he gets the Dooku treatment for running ahead like a moron against anyone stronger than him. The Flash of Brilliance won't be of any use if he's dead before he gets it. Which would've happened if Dooku was actually feeling like killing him & Obi-Wan from the get-go.
Base S4 Anakin VS Base AoTC Anakin ends up with S4 taking it with low-diff at worst.
You are aware that this battle is betweenRevenge of the SithKenobi (not TCW) and TCW S4 Anakin, right? We also know that there is a vast gap between TCW Anakin and his ROTS iteration.
I didn't notice that it was RoTS Kenobi in the OP. I thought they were both their S4 iterations due to the pics. TCW pics confused me. NGL.
Still. Kenobi has no answer to a morals off, Anakin's Force-Power. They might be close or matched in CQC. But Anakin can still take Sabers In a prolonged fight due to not being as mentally ill as Mustafar Vader, who could still dominate parts of his fight against a Kenobi at his absolute Peak. Even after taking many nerfs, back to back. Let alone this inferior version.
And this Anakin is clearly smarter than to fall for any tricks Kenobi might use. And this time, there's no imbalance to allow him to fall for it.
The gap between TCW Annie & RoTS Annie doesn't translate to Kenobi. Who still gets ragdolled despite a clear growth between his TCW & RoTS iteration.
One has immense potential above everyone in the verse, thanks to being born from the Force. And second only to capital G GOD. Which essentially makes him Space-Jesus.
The other is a dude with decent potential. But nothing too special in comparison to Maul & Dooku. With tons of Accolades speaking about their power. Or maybe even Savage. If you wanna go there.
You can't compare them, mate.
Even hindered MFV is still superior to his Jedi self in both skill and power. Kenobis ability to defend against him is a testament to his ability.
Nah. The clash against Kenobi, and them getting blasted back is more than enough of an indication. Dooku could ragdoll Obi Wan with the Force. And is clearly above him thanks to him matching AoTC Yoda in Force. And Dooku still needs to take out Anakin in CQC, rather than Force. While a Kenobi who's vastly above his AoTC iteration gets dominated by a Maul that's still below his TPM version one year before RoTS.
Kenobi's placement in the Force power food-chain is pretty telling from his showings against Maul. If you disagree with this. Please post some evidence that definitively puts these two above Dooku. Cause some words from Nick Gillard. And Kenobi being able to stop a casual Force-Choke, if he was fast enough. Isn't really enough evidence to support Kenobi being equal, or not far from a guy who was = AoTC Yoda in Force.
@cryolancer47: In canon, AOTC Anakin pressing Dooku is contradicted by him consistently being matched by Ventress many times after AOTC
No. Because he pressed Dooku when he got a Flash of Brilliance. Him struggling against Asajj in his TCW base doesn't contradict that. Replace TCW Anakin with FoB AoTC Anakin. And he would humiliate Ventress.
Of course not. But he's vastly above AoTC Anakin thanks to his feat of dueling Dooku in Star Wars: The Clone Wars Movie. Which is set before season 4:
The events of the film chronologically take place between the season 1 episode "The Hidden Enemy" and theseason 3episode "Clone Cadets" of the television series.
Loading Video...
Which is more than enough of a performance to say he can match, or beat base RoTS Kenobi.
@reborndarthuhu: Dooku was able to do this against Ventress, why not against Obi-Wan?
He stood tall, imposing, and as Vos raced toward him, Dooku didn't flinch. He lowered his sword and extended his hand. Vos rose in the air and then Dooku shoved, sending the Jedi slamming into one of the pillars. The count turned, almost nonchalantly performing the same maneuver with Ventress. The wind was knocked out of her and she couldn't breathe. Stubbornly, using her hate the way she had taught Vos to do, she summoned energy to to push herself up to a kneeling position, still clutching her lightsaber.
Dooku's lip curled in a manner that might have been a smile or a snarl. Abruptly, Ventress found herself dangling in the air as he whirled her around behind him and then threw her down like a spoiled child discarding a disliked toy.
The pain was excruciating, but Ventress remained conscious long enough to see that Dooku wasn't yet done. She could only watch helplessly as she slid, headfirst, into the unyielding stone of a meticulously carved bench. Then the world went white, and she knew nothing more.
It's clearly PIS when a weaker, early CW Anakin already dealt with Asajj when got pissed off without FoB. And as someone already showed. A weaker Dooku negged Ventress. While a stronger one needs to take Anakin out in a CQC heavy fight.
And as displayed later on. Dooku still neggs Ventress with low-diff:
While he clearly needs to put in actual effort to deal with Pre-S4 Anakin:
Loading Video...
Which shows obvious growth in power. So you can't really use Ventress to lowball him. Since we all know Filoni PIS exists. Otherwise, Dooku would be sub-Jack Sparrow. And Maul is sub-Dog level. Or maybe S2 Kanan & Ezra are = To Vader in Force. Since they managed to Force-Push him.
Kenobi has at this point has outduelled RoTS Vader, who was tapping into the dark side much deeper than he did during his fight as Anakin, where he defeated Dooku - a feat that Anakin as of Season 4 shouldn't be able to replicate. Even if IH Anakin > Mustafar Vader as a duelist, the gap shouldn't be as big as the growth between S4 and RoTS due to Anakin's much greater Force power, and therefore augmentation and the experiences he gained later in the war with frequent training and experience fighting many high-tier foes such as Dooku.
Obi-Wan on Mustafar matched Vader in a Force Push; while S4 Anakin is a much more rational-minded and focused Force user, a Push is a pretty basic technique and Mustafar Vader commands notably more raw power than S4 Anakin. This, combined with Kenobi's comparable if not superior technical Force skill to S4 Anakin means that he's not getting dominated in a force battle.
Are you referring to their fight in Brotherhood? He was amped there too.
The amp doesn't matter much. Since we already know where Dooku is in Saber & Force. But even then. They were both amped. And Ventress still got negged like she was in 2003 Clone Wars.
Base Anakin was matched by Ventress more times than he’s matched Dooku. The Anakin vs Dooku fight in the TCW movie is the PIS showing.
Not really. Since this Anakin scales above early war Anakin that fought Ventress.
And the Anakin that got matched by Ventress usually doesn't go all-out like he did against Dooku. And we saw what happens when a serious, all-out Anakin does to Ventress. When he came to interrogate her:
Loading Video...
An Anakin putting actual effort, can easily ragdoll Asajj with the Force. Which is why it's usually a requirement to limit their fights to Sabers/CQC only with him not using the Force offensively.
Want proof? Look no further than Season 1 Episode 16 where Kenobi & Anakin take her on at the same time:
Loading Video...
For the fight above to even happen. It required Anakin & Kenobi to have a below room temperature IQ and not do the reasonable thing of joining their Force Powers to push or pin her to the wall. And only Kenobi used it to stop some books. And then falling for an obvious lie when their Sith opponent is still armed. With bot of them knowing how dangerous she is.
That up there is PIS at it's finest. Especially when you consider who took her down before. And how strong he got from then on. So her managing to fight them both is good old Filoni writing. This is how a 2v1 fight should really go if they even tried to use their brains and utilize the Force properly against her(Start at 2:18):
Loading Video...
Even the above is riddled with PIS. So Asajj is apparently strong enough to take Kenobi out for a good while with a kick. And when Anakin, someone who's Force powers/potential are so high that even Dooku is forced to deal with him in Sabers only. Can't do anything more than Force-Push Asajj like 2 or 3 feet away. While she can throw him hard into the wall, and stagger him. While him and Kenobi Force-Pushing her at the same time, barely did what she did to Anakin a few moments ago. With her quickly recovering from it.
If that's not Filoni-Force PIS. I don't know what is.
Anyway. S4 Anakin is strong enough to force Dooku to use the Force for a distraction. And he's still strong enough to keep up after getting tagged by Magna-Guards. And even surprised Dooku with his Force-Power while getting tazzed by 3 or 4 Magna-Guards at the same time:
Loading Video...
If this was Kenobi instead. Then he would've wrist-flicked him. Since Dooku still has that near AoTC Yoda level of Force-Power. And yet, he decides to throw lamps instead of ragdolling Anakin like he does Kenobi.
Meanwhile. Obi-Wan gets ragdolled by a hindered Maul in the same season in episode 22. And the first episode of season 5. Twice.
“The amp doesn't matter much. Since we already know where Dooku is in Saber & Force. But even then. They were both amped. And Ventress still got negged like she was in 2003 Clone Wars.”
How was Ventress amped?
“Not really. Since this Anakin scales above early war Anakin that fought Ventress.”
TCW movie Anakin doesn’t
“And the Anakin that got matched by Ventress usually doesn't go all-out like he did against Dooku.”
That’s only because he hates Dooku and since he doesn’t hate Obi-wan, it’s irrelevant.
“An Anakin putting actual effort, can easily ragdoll Asajj with the Force. Which is why it's usually a requirement to limit their fights to Sabers/CQC only with him not using the Force offensively”
This can easily be explained by growth, an amp, or both and it doesn’t scale to season 4 Anakin anyway.
“For the fight above to even happen. It required Anakin & Kenobi to have a below room temperature IQ and not do the reasonable thing of joining their Force Powers to push or pin her to the wall. And only Kenobi used it to stop some books. And then falling for an obvious lie when their Sith opponent is still armed. With bot of them knowing how dangerous she is.”
Underutilization of the force happens all the time in Star Wars. The sabers portion of this fight is still valid
“That up there is PIS at it's finest. Especially when you consider who took her down before. And how strong he got from then on”
Again, Anakin was amped when he beat her in Brotherhood
“Even the above is riddled with PIS. So Asajj is apparently strong enough to take Kenobi out for a good while with a kick”
A kick from Dooku incapped Anakin for several second in ROTS despite being less powerful so I don’t think it’s that crazy.
“And when Anakin, someone who's Force powers/potential are so high that even Dooku is forced to deal with him in Sabers only. Can't do anything more than Force-Push Asajj like 2 or 3 feet away.”
If Anakin is tapping into his potential to fight Dooku, it’s not relevant for base Anakin.
“While him and Kenobi Force-Pushing her at the same time, barely did what she did to Anakin a few moments ago. With her quickly recovering from it.”
They didn’t put much effort into the push and Ventress did handle it worse than Anakin handled it.
“If that's not Filoni-Force PIS. I don't know what is.”
Sorry. Made a mistake while thinking about how Ventress was rage-amped when she choked Anakin & Kenobi after Dooku let her go. Anyway. Even IF Anakin/Dooku was amped during the Brotherhood fight. It didn't add much. Since one is already confirmed as a peer of Yoda in Force during AoTC. Which is more than enough proof to show that he's vastly above Ventress without an amp. And the other has Potential that allows him to constantly grow rapidly, and makes him second only to GOD.
So either way, Ventress cannot compare to any of these two without PIS affecting them.
There's also this:
Dooku appears to conceal his true power in the Force against Yoda, who perceives him as having grown weaker since their previous encounter. Dooku abruptly defeats Yoda with Lightning and corrects him, saying that he has grown more powerful:
As well as the fact that Dooku has more knowledge in the Force than Ventress:
A master of Quey'Tek meditation, Dooku instructs Ventress in the technique to allow her to conceal her Force sensitivity from the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi:
Despite his mastery of the Quey'tek technique for hiding oneself in the Force, they had located him!
For months Count Dooku had taught her the Quy’Tek meditations.
Obi-Wan knew that last voice. Suddenly, and with shocking clarity, all that had happened in the last days made terrible, and possibly terminal sense. "Asajj Ventress," he said.
She appeared out of the shadows, but it was not shadows alone that had protected her. In each hand she held a glowing red light-saber with curved handles. A dozen young X'Ting emerged from the boxes around her. Males, barely out of their adolescence, judging by the light rings of fur around their necks. They swaggered and postured, but they were callow.
"You have perfected the Quy'Tek meditations, Adept," he said. "You can shield your Force."
"From fools, yes," she said, and smiled.
And his TK is leagues and leagues above Asajj:
Telekinesis
Telekinesis is the movement of objects and manipulation of reality through the power of the mind.
Dooku was adept at telekinesis by the age of seven:
Adept at telekinesis by the age of seven, Dooku had a strong interest in the greater galaxy.
Source: The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection #34
Dooku ragdolls Anakin Skywalker after gathering his power:
Anakin was moving quickly, hugging the wall of the hangar. His focus was so intent that he did not sense Obi-Wan behind him. Obi-Wan noted this with alarm. How many times had he warned Anakin to never focus on the goal ahead only, but to cast his attention like a net, as far around him as he could? He should have sensed his Master. Obi-Wan quickened his pace. He felt the dark side of the Force grow and gather, and he wanted to call out to Anakin, but didn't want to give away their positions.
He needn't have worried. Whoever the Sith was, he knew exactly where Anakin was, for, to Obi-Wan's horror, his apprentice was suddenly lifted like a doll and flung into the air. Anakin's body slammed into the wreck of a cruiser. He fell to the ground.
Source: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown
Anakin compares the power of Tyranus' telekinesis to that of an autoblaster cannon (which is designed to engage capital ships):
"Only from behind. Tall. Dressed in a black-hooded cape that trailed all the way to the ground. I didn't see his face. He didn't even turn. I felt the Force come at me like an autoblaster cannon...." Anakin struggled to his feet. "It could be a Sith."
Source: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown
Tyranus easily hurls numerous large vehicles, including a cruiser. He then smashes the vehicles together to form a barrier that blocks the entrance to the front of the hangar:
They moved farther into the darkness.
"Keep your focus loose," Obi-Wan warned him in a low tone. "He will come from anywhere when he comes."
"This time I'll be prepared."
"Don't be so confident," Obi-Wan answered. "You probably won't be."
They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.
Like phantoms..
Phantoms that move...
Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.
Then he knew.
"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.
"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.
Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.
He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.
The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.
"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."
Source: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown
He paused by the wreckage of the vehicles that the mysterious Sith had moved so easily.
Source: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown
Canon: He utilizes telekinesis and Lightning simultaneously to knock out Anakin:
But this was no simple warrior enemy. Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning, unknown to Jedi, charged all about the trapped and lifted Jedi Padawan. Anakin managed to hold onto his lightsaber as he went up into the air, held there by the power of the Count. With a wave of his hand, Dooku sent Anakin flying across the room, to crash into a distant wall, where he slumped down, dazed.
Source: Attack of the Clones
Canon: Dooku calls down great blocks of stone ceiling on Yoda:
Dooku clutched up at the ceiling, breaking free great blocks that tumbled down at Yoda. But small hands waved and the boulders dropped to the sides, bouncing across the floor all about the untouched Master Yoda.
Source: Attack of the Clones
Canon: Dooku uses Saber Throw:
Canon: Dooku Crushes the base of a huge pillar to topple it, with just a gesture:
Dooku knocks over a crane onto Anakin and Obi-Wan:
"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber bean to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back.
"The battle is far from over!" Dooku stubbornly argued. "This is just the beginning!" Reaching into the Force, he took hold of one of the huge cranes within the hangar and threw it down at Obi-Wan and Anakin.
"Anakin!" Obi-Wan cried. He grabbed at the plummeting crane with the Force, and Anakin, startled awake, did so, as well. Even working together, they hadn't the strength left to stop its crushing descent.
But Yoda did.
Yoda grabbed the crane and held it fast, but in doing so, he had to release Dooku. The Count wasted no time, sprinting away, leaping up the ramp to his sail ship. As Yoda began to move the fallen crane harmlessly aside, the sail ship's engine roared to life, and all three Jedi watched helplessly as Count Dooku blasted away.
Source: Attack of the Clones
Canon: Dooku crushes the windpipes of two clones and hurls them at two Jedi:
He paused, shot both hands out in front of him, and and raised his clenched fists. The clones were lifted in the Force, dropping their blasters as their hands went to their necks to pry off invisible hands. Desh heard an awful crunch, and they both went limp. Sneering, Dooku hurled the corpses directly at Bayons and Desh.
Source: Dark Disciple
Canon: Dooku almost nonchalantly ragdolls Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress, incapacitating them:
He stood tall, imposing, and as Vos raced toward him, Dooku didn't flinch. He lowered his sword and extended his hand. Vos rose in the air and then Dooku shoved, sending the Jedi slamming into one of the pillars. The count turned, almost nonchalantly performing the same maneuver with Ventress. The wind was knocked out of her and she couldn't breathe. Stubbornly, using her hate the way she had taught Vos to do, she summoned energy to to push herself up to a kneeling position, still clutching her lightsaber.
Dooku's lip curled in a manner that might have been a smile or a snarl. Abruptly, Ventress found herself dangling in in the air as he whirled her around behind him and then threw her down like a spoiled child discarding a disliked toy.
The pain was excruciating, but Ventress remained conscious long enough to see that Dooku wasn't yet done. She could only watch helplessly as she slid, headfirst, into the unyielding stone of a meticulously carved bench. Then the world went white, and she knew nothing more.
Source: Dark Disciple
Canon: He casually utilizes Grip/Choke on Obi-Wan while throwing chairs and even a situation table at Anakin:
Anakin launched himself at Dooku's back—and the Count half turned, gesturing casually while holding Obi-Wan at bay with an elegant one handed bind. Chairs leapt up from the situation table and whirled toward Anakin's head. He slashed the first one in half contemptuously, but the second caught him across the knees and the third battered his shoulder and knocked him down.
He snarled to himself and reached through the Force to pick up some chairs of his own—and the situation table itself slammed into him and drove him back to crush him against the wall.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
Canon: Dooku floors Obi-Wan with the flick of his wrist after gathering Force energy:
He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.
He accelerates Kenobi's falling body to high speeds like that of a missile burning the last of its drives. Kenobi's body strikes the floor and skids along it to strike the wall with enough force that Kenobi is not only incapacitated, but the hydrofoamed permacrete collapses onto him (this happens in the RotS novel instead of the Choking and collapsing a balcony):
While Kenobi's bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi's fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.
Source: Revenge of the Sith
Canon: Tyranus Chokes Obi-Wan Kenobi while kicking Anakin backwards, then throws Kenobi across a room into a walkway and collapses a large portion of a balcony onto him:
Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.
Obi-Wan dropped to the floor below and lay half-stunned. Distantly, he felt a surge in the dark side, and then a large chunk of the balcony hurtled down at him. His last thought before he lost consciousness was, It's up to Anakin now.
Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization
Dooku proved a formidable opponent. He Force-pushed Obi-Wan like a ragdoll against the wall of the quarters, knocking him unconscious.
Waiting for them was Count Dooku, and unlike the impulsive and disorganized attack that had marked their last confrontation with Dooku, Obi-Wan and Anakin challenged Dooku as a team. Dooku proved a formidable opponent. He Force-pushed Obi-Wan with terrible strength, tossing the Jedi Master like a rag doll against the walls of the quarters. Kenobi was knocked unconscious.
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Canon: Tyranus lifts about a dozen heavy obelisk stones:
He hurls Captain Rex, Commander Cody and Commander Fox with a mere gesture, effortlessly slams down a metal door, and proceeds to easily collapse a bridge to knock down a ship:
Canon: When Padme attempts to shoot him with a blaster, he manipulates her arms so that she shoots Bec Lawise instead, against her own will:
Canon: He casually hurls two Pykes off a ledge to their deaths:
Canon: Tyranus kills two Pykes with Choke:
Canon: He kills Silman with Choke:
Canon: Dooku kills Miraj Scintel with Choke:
Canon: Dooku Chokes Turk to death, but not before forcing him to shoot his companion against his will:
The Count easily collapses boulders on Tholme, burying him, then levitates Sora Bulq's unconscious body:
Canon: Dooku collapses several boulders from a cave ceiling:
Canon: Dooku collapses a cave entrance:
Canon: Tyranus Chokes an untrained Savage with ease:
He lifts Quinaln Vos up whilst strangling him with the Force and simultaneously disarming him. Dooku then hurls Vos, exerting considerable power and control over the Kiffar:
In a remarkable demonstration of his formidable dark-side abilities, the Jedi-turned-Sith Lord Count Dooku directs his powers toward the Jedi Quinlan Vos. Levitating his adversary and choking him in a telekinetic stranglehold, Dooku simultaneously relieves Vos of his lightsaber.
Source: The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded
Canon: Dooku casually catches Brother Viscus in mid-air and throws him to the ground with telekinesis, with enough force to severely injure the Nightbrother:
Dooku casually inflicts torturous pain on Ventress through the Force, knocking her to her floor and giving her the sensation of sharp stones in her throat and chest, then slamming her into the floor and bursting a blood vessel, which causes Ventress's overall features on her face to be bruised:
"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.
Dooku looked around. "Or what?"
Her face went pale.
Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. "Please," she said. "Don't."
"It doesn't feel good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest." Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "It's the blood vessels I hate, "Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside like balloons about to pop."
"P-p-p-please..."
"But worse anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowed around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite." A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's voice went dark and far away. "All the things you should have stopped, but didn't, and nothing will ever be right again. And the things you've done," he whispered. "By the pitless stars, the things you've done..."
The comm on Dooku's desk beeped. He shook his head, like a man waking from a dream. "The Troxan delegation is at the door."
Ventress crawled to her feet. Her face was bruised and her cheeks were wet with tears. Both pretended not to notice.
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
Dooku kills his former padawan Komari Vosa with Choke:
Canon: He telekinetically pushes Ventress into a wall, then drags her through the air and disarms her via the Force:
He intercepts one of Ventress's attacks by throwing an object between them (without the need to gesture or even face the object), then telekinetically disarms Ventress and proceeds to send her flying:
Canon:
He knocks Asajj Ventress unconscious with an extended blast of Lightning:
Canon: The Count uses Lightning to stun Savage, making him scream in pain. Savage later wonders how it is possible to defend against such power:
"How can one defend against such power?"
Source: The Clone Wars: Witches of the Mist
Canon: He continually subdues Savage with Lightning:
Canon: Dooku subdues Ventresss with a blast of Lightning:
Canon: While drugged, Dooku unleashes a powerful burst of Lightning that lifts three Nightsisters (including Ventress) off their feet and additionally hurls them out of a window:
Canon: He shocks Anakin into releasing his hand while being choked by Anakin and in a saber lock:
Canon: He knocks Anakin unconscious with Lightning after rendering him defenseless with Choke:
Canon: After collapsing in pain from a blaster wound and having an injury from a ship crash reopen, Dooku fires Lightning so powerful that it kills Asajj Ventress. Obi-Wan later remarks that she sacrificed herself to save Quinlan Vos, indicating that he would've been killed had the Lightning struck him instead:
Another blaster bolt, and this time, it hit. Dooku had just made it to the threshold when he suddenly arched in pain and collapsed.
--
Vos inspected the wound, then rolled Dooku’s limp form over. “There’s nothing we can do now about the blaster burn, but this injury from the crash has reopened.” Gently, Vos picked Ventress up and laid her down beside the unconscious Dooku. He took her good arm and placed it on Dooku’s injury. “Keep pressure on it,” he said.
--
Vos saw Ventress’s eyes open wide. Her body went taut and she seemed to be staring at something he couldn’t see. Fear exploded in him, quivering in the pit of his belly, and he shook her, gently.
“Asajj?”
“No,” she whispered, her eyes still unfocused, frighteningly blank. Then, “No!”
Violently, she shoved Vos away, putting the Force into the movement so powerfully that he was hurled across the room. As he struck the wall, he heard a terrifyingly familiar sound: the sizzle and crackle of Force lightning.
Dooku stood, his teeth bared in a savage snarl of victory. Ventress was caught in the most violent bolts of Force lightning Vos had ever seen. They danced and crackled about her hungrily, almost like living creatures. Her body spasmed and her face contorted into a mask of absolute agony. Blood trickled from her ears, eyes, and nose.
“Asajj!” Vos cried, leaping between Ventress and Dooku. He activated his lightsaber, deflecting the Force lightning back onto Dooku. The count’s eyes widened in comprehension a split second before his own weapon turned on him, disloyal, as things of the dark always were. Dooku was flung back and lay on the ground, screaming and trembling, then lying still as the bolts faded.
Ventress lay unmoving on the floor. Her clothes—and her body itself—emitted wisps of smoke. “No,” Vos moaned. She was breathing, but her pulse was thready and she was still, so terribly still. “Asajj…no…no…!”
Fury, as intense and primal as the bolts that had nearly killed her, shuddered through him, and the world went red. Vos threw back his head and voiced his rage, whirling on the count as he lay, shivering and gasping for breath, on the stone floor.
Three strides brought Vos to Count Dooku. He pressed the humming blade close to Dooku’s neck.
“Do…it,” rasped Dooku. Impossibly, he was smiling. “The lightning wasn’t…for her. It was for you. She just…got in the way. Go on. Take…your revenge!”
Vos’s heart shook his body with its pounding, its aching, its demands. His gaze flickered to Ventress, lying so terrifyingly motionless. His vision blurred. It took him a moment to realize that tears were falling down his face in a river of pain. The dark, rage-filled tide inside him receded, leaving in his heart only the truth of the tears. The count still smiled, still anticipated the final step that would turn Vos irrevocably to the dark side.
“I am not your kind,” Vos said, his voice thick. “I do not feed off vengeance.” Truth was quiet. It did not need to shout or to demand. It simply existed. “I am a Jedi.”
Vos deactivated his lightsaber. Ventress was still alive, and hope, cruel and beautiful and agonizing, flared in his chest as he rushed to her.
“Vos.” He didn’t turn around at the sound of Kenobi’s voice. Somehow, he was unsurprised that Obi-Wan was here, at this moment. “We’ll take him from here.”
Vos simply nodded. He might still be executed. He would certainly be taken back to the Council in chains. But none of that mattered. Everything that mattered was here, right before him. He felt raw in this moment—cracked open and laid bare. His senses were heightened and he was almost painfully aware of everything: the smell of blood and scorched flesh; the steady slip of tears down his angular cheekbones, and their salty taste; the coppery tang of blood and fear in his mouth. He saw that strange patterns now decorated Ventress’s bone-white skin; traces of darker flesh that looked like lightning bolts. The Force lightning had marked her for its own.
Ventress’s breathing grew labored. He wanted to hold her, to keep her alive through the sheer force of his will, but he was afraid touching her would cause her more pain. Her beautiful, ice-blue eyes opened, and she smiled. He tried to return her smile, and failed miserably.
“Hey, handsome,” Ventress murmured.
Vos gave a shaky laugh through the tears. “Hey, yourself.”
“I won’t break, you know.” No. She would never break. Not Asajj Ventress. At the invitation, Vos gathered her as gently as possible in his arms. The movement caused her to cough violently. “I’m…”
Blood ran from her mouth, soaking his shirt. He bit back a sob. “Don’t try to speak.”
Ventress gave him a look that was so completely her, it tore him apart. “You don’t…tell me what to do, Idiot.”
A small smile surprised him. “Never could,” he admitted.
“Damn right.” Another bout of coughing racked her thin frame, and for a devastating, heart-scalding second Vos thought this would take her. But she continued. “I’m proud of you for…what you did over there. You chose loving me instead of hating him.” Her bloody-frothed lips curved in a smile. “Best choice you’ve ever made.”
Vos wept unashamedly, cradling her, stroking her face. He wanted to memorize its every curve, sear it into his memory, then realized that he had already done so. “It was,” he agreed. He swallowed hard. “Asajj…you were right. I—I did fall to the dark side. And I’ve been there this whole time. I just…I didn’t…know!”
“You lied to yourself,” Ventress whispered. “That’s…why I couldn’t tell.”
“I love you, and I’ve never stopped, not for a moment.” Here, at the end, Vos had to make sure she—
“I know,” Ventress said. “But you did stop lying.” She shuddered deeply. Vos felt his heart crack. Her fingers dug into his arm tightly and her gaze bored into his. “Remember…you always have a choice to be better. You always have a choice to…to pick the right path.” She smiled sadly. “Even if that choice comes a little late.”
No, it couldn’t be too late. Vos still had to tell her everything he’d felt. How his heart had jumped the first time she had touched him tenderly, caring for his injury on the Banshee. That seemed like a lifetime ago. When she’d asked him how she looked in the ball gown, he should have told her. And when they had first kissed—Asajj Ventress had changed everything in his world, was still changing it, right this minute. But there was too much to say, and not enough time to say it, and the words crowded his throat and choked him into silence.
With an effort, Ventress reached to touch his face, tracing the yellow tattoo, lingering over his lips. When she spoke, her voice was so faint that he had to strain to hear it. “And always remember…that I loved you, with all of my heart.”
He had known it. But he had never before heard it from her lips. Now he found he could speak, the simplest of words. “I will.”
Ventress took a shuddering breath. The tension left her body, and she relaxed into his embrace as her eyes began to close.
No.
“Asajj,” Vos begged. “Asajj. Please don’t go.”
Her eyes flickered open, and a corner of her mouth turned up. “I have to, Quinlan. It’s my time now. My sisters…are waiting.”
Fear such as he had never known seized Vos, and he tightened his arms around her, as if by holding on he could somehow prevent death from taking her. “Please…please don’t…”
“You must let me go, my love,” Ventress said, her voice so gentle, so tender, and she smiled lovingly. “It’s the Jedi way.”
And she was gone.
--
“Asajj Ventress moved Vos out of harm’s way, taking the full brunt of Dooku’s Force lightning upon herself,” Kenobi said. “She sacrificed her life to save him.”
Source: Dark Disciple
So Dooku is clearly superior even without an amp, even before S4 of Clone Wars. And Anakin managed to keep up in Sabers to some degree without Flash of Brilliance allowing him to tap into his Yoda-Tier potential. While Asajj gets negged without any issue. And we also see this again when she tries to fight a Dooku that's easily fighting her while shocking Savage. While she screams at Savage to "Get up!" And even insulting him from how desperate she was against a Count who was half-timing her ass.
So trying to argue that MAAAAYBE Ventress isn't fodder is just pointless. Anakin keeping up with Dooku is due to growth in power. You can't use fights where he's messing around from the start and not going all-out due to PIS as evidence to counter him being able to somewhat fight Dooku to a degree. Which flies in the face of his growth and potential.
TCW movie Anakin doesn’t
How? He literally lands two kicks on Ventress and disarms her. While she resorted to a Force-Push to get him away when he wasn't ready:
Loading Video...
Anakin doesn't even use the Force at any point. While Ventress does so. Which is a pretty clear display of PIS.
Even early 2003 Clone Wars Anakin dealt with Force attacks from multiple directions, far better than this jobbing version. And that was when he was in the air, mid-swing (Start at 2:19) and easily grabbed and overpowered her, when he had no weapon. And forced her to drop a Saber with pure strength alone (Start at 7:00):
Loading Video...
And that version of Anakin was not amped, and was merely fighting at his base level at the beginning. You can only argue that he was rage-amped when he grabbed the red Saber and yelled. But that's far beneath FoB Anakin by miles. Who managed to press Dooku and surprised him with his sudden rise in power and skill.
And TCW movie Anakin managed to keep up with Dooku when he went all-out. Unlike his fight with Ventress. Where he was clearly affected by plot. And not allowing him to even Force-Push her. While Ventress was allowed to use the Force to her liking. And clearly needed that eye-roll move(?) to take him and Ahsoka on.
So base early war Anakin managed to disarm, and forced Ventress to retreat high up in the trees. Which happened before the rage-amp. Which is enough proof that he's above her even then. When she was abusing Force to throw things at him from multiple directions, and blindsided him with a big log the size of his body, after he was reacting, and cutting every other object with 0 diff. And he still continued to fight like nothing happened. As well as the fact that early Anakin was far more smarter than the Anakin with Ahoska. Who clearly got hit and contracted the Filoni-disease. Which made him not even use any form of Force against Ventress. Not even a simple push at the beginning of the fight while Ventress was talking. And allowed her to join her Sabers.
That's Plot Induced Stupidity, as clear as day. Denying it, and trying to act as if Anakin, who got stronger from early war & AoTC. Being able to give Dooku some issue as PIS doesn't work. Cause unlike Ventress. Anakin's potential as the Chosen One allows him to grow in power faster than Kenobi, Maul, or Dooku. And goes from giving Dooku a decent fight and losing. To stomping him once he let's go of all his fears and worries. And then from that you get an above RoTS Sidious KFV. All in the span of a week.
And S4 Anakun might not be as strong as base RoTS Anakin. But he's still strong enough to perform well against Dooku when he was outnumbered and tazzed by Magna-Guards:
That’s only because he hates Dooku and since he doesn’t hate Obi-wan, it’s irrelevant.
No it's not. Because they're both morals-off in this fight. Which means Anakin won't be jobbing and holding back against Kenobi. He'll go all-out. So his performance against Dooku in a weaker version is still relevant. You can't handwave it with a strawman like this.
This can easily be explained by growth, an amp, or both and it doesn’t scale to season 4 Anakin anyway.
If you can find a source that confirms he was amped to the point where he could do what he did, then sure. But as it is now, he was actually willing to kill Asajj and no longer holding back. And the fact that Dooku prefers to take him out in Sabers, while he neggs Asajj in Force. Backs up the idea that Anakin is leagues above her in Force as well. When not affected by Filoni-Force, of course.
Underutilization of the force happens all the time in Star Wars. The sabers portion of this fight is still valid
Not when she can take out Kenobi with a kick to the chest. When said character took worse and kept fighting. Also, there's underutilization of the Force. And then there's not using it at all for anything other than stopping books. Asajj was literally opened for an attack. And Anakin just stood there.
Again, Anakin was amped when he beat her in Brotherhood
By how much? Cause we already have evidence of him keeping up, disarming, and forcing her to retreat in base. As well as easily overpowering her before taking the red Saber and letting his rage out. So saying he was amped form the start requires you to post evidence.
A kick from Dooku incapped Anakin for several second in ROTS despite being less powerful so I don’t think it’s that crazy.
Dooku still has that AoTC Yoda level power. And high-tier augmentation to boot. So getting staggered by a kick isn't a bad thing. And let's not act like it was a regular kick either. It sent him flying and hitting the wall. And he got up after Dooku dropped the platform on Kenobi. And that's before he goes into Zonakin. So I don't see what you're trying to say here.
If Anakin is tapping into his potential to fight Dooku, it’s not relevant for base Anakin.
Not always he's not. If he tapped into his potential to go FoB Anakin, or even anything near Zonakin. He would've stomped Dooku. Since he could somewhat challenge him, and lose. But he clearly just manages to keep up better than Asajj does.
Also, he was already confirmed to be more powerful than any of the other Jedi in Force. And even without training. He would've still been more powerful in the Force:
Anakin is the most powerful Jedi in more than a millennium:
Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi in over a thousand years.
Source: Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith
Anakin is the most powerful Jedi of his time, and still growing in strength:
At nine years of age he had been an expert Podracer; by twenty-one he would have been a galactic champion. With or without Qui-Gon's or Watto's help, he would eventually have won the Boonta Eve race, and his reputation would have been made. He would have bought freedom for himself, his mother, all the slaves in Mos Espa, gone on to win the Grand Races on Malastare, been hailed in the gambling casinos on Ord Mantell and Coruscant. He wouldn't have become a Jedi--he would have been too old to train--would never have learned to wield a lightsaber. But he would have been able to fly rings around the finest of Jedi pilots, including Saesee Tiin.
And he still would have been stronger in the Force than any of them.
Source: Labyrinth of Evil
The intent of him keeping up with Dooku due to his immense potential is clear, and backed up by feats. You're welcome to disagree. But we're not dealing with, say, Kylo Ren. Who only has statments and no feats to back them up. So acting as if him being able to keep up with Dooku is illogical doesn't work for obvious reasons. But even if we say he was tapping into his potential. The same can easily happen here in a morals off fight with 0 hindrances against Kenobi. But unlike Dooku. Who got a higher placement in the food-chain. Kenobi is going to get negged if Anakin gets pissed off.
And Kenobi getting molested by a Maul that was only getting back his TPM level in Force one year before RoTS, isn't a good look. And confirms that a morals off Anakin, that's tapping into his potential. Which allows him to keep up with the near AoTC Yoda-level Dooku, and give him some issues. Will do the same to him.
They didn’t put much effort into the push and Ventress did handle it worse than Anakin handled it.
No. Anakin was actually staggered heavily by it. From the expression and the way his body moved after the push. While Ventress just got on her knees. And wasn't even pushed as hard as he did by them both. And a double Force-Push should at least be equal, or around her push. Which clearly wasn't the case from their push not even cracking the glass Ventress was thrown against.
Anakin matching Dooku in the TCW Movie
No. Because unlike Asajj or Kenobi. Even early Anakin continued to grow thanks to his power and potential. Which is proven in AoTC, and season 4 where he surprised Dooku with his power after getting in a clash with him, and immediately tazzed by Magna-Guards. Before, and after he was down. And needed Dooku to choke and electrocute this already beaten Anakin to put him down for good:
Loading Video...
Do you Think Kenobi can do the same? Cause him getting negged by Maul in the Force says otherwise. Let alone actually fighting Dooku and doing as well as S4 Anakin did while fighting, and getting tagged by Magna-Guards at the same time, in multiple directions. And base RoTS Kenobi << Utapu Kenobi:
Moreover, at this point in time Kenobi hadn't learned to reach the heights he had by Utapau, let alone Mustafar (easily his most powerful self):
"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?""I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—""Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."
So now, facing the tornado of annihilating energy that is Grievous's attack, Obi-Wan simply is who he is.
The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a dif-ferent angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life. Not one touched him.
After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornet-swarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks—sixteen per second, eighteen—until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. —slice— The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it
So he would've gotten absolutely STOMPED in this situation.
I made my case and presented the evidence. If you still disagree with it, then I can't really do anything more to convince you. But what I showed is as clear as day. Anakin managing to keep up with Dooku is consistent with his portrayal and growing power-level thanks to being The Chosen One. So even if you still disagree with his duel during TCW movie against Dookie. He still has his S4 showing. Which shows how much he has grown by managing to somewhat keep up. Until getting disarmed by Dooku. And that only happened after getting tazzed by Magna-Guards. And then you have him surprising Dooku and forcing him to Force-Choke and use Force-Lightning to put his ass down for good.
Now, if you think base Kenobi can replicate such a feat. Please post evidence to debunk mine.
Sorry. Made a mistake while thinking about how Ventress was rage-amped when she choked Anakin & Kenobi after Dooku let her go. Anyway. Even IF Anakin/Dooku was amped during the Brotherhood fight. It didn't add much. Since one is already confirmed as a peer of Yoda in Force during AoTC. Which is more than enough proof to show that he's vastly above Ventress without an amp. And the other has Potential that allows him to constantly grow rapidly, and makes him second only to GOD.
So either way, Ventress cannot compare to any of these two without PIS affecting them.
(…)
By how much? Cause we already have evidence of him keeping up, disarming, and forcing her to retreat in base. As well as easily overpowering her before taking the red Saber and letting his rage out. So saying he was amped form the start requires you to post evidence.
Brotherhood spoilers:
Before the amp, he went back and forth with Ventress:
After, he could see all of her vulnerabilities and forced her back with each swing(also explains why he was amped):
That’s a pretty big amp
So either way, Ventress cannot compare to any of these two without PIS affecting them.
She can compare with this Anakin
Also, since we’re using legends too:
She could’ve taken his head off here
And Anakin managed to keep up in Sabers to some degree withoutFlash of Brillianceallowing him to tap into his Yoda-Tier potential. While Asajj gets negged without any issue. And we also see this again when she tries to fight a Dooku that's easily fighting her while shocking Savage. While she screams at Savage to "Get up!" And even insulting him from how desperate she was against a Count who was half-timing her ass.
Again, Anakin has matched her more than he’s matched Dooku so this only proves how big the gap is between TCW Anakin and Dooku consistently
How?
TCW movie Anakin can’t scale above early war Anakin since he is early war Anakin
He literally lands two kicks on Ventress and disarms her. While she resorted to a Force-Push to get him away when he wasn't ready
In the same video she holds his own and tags him in a 1v2 and their fight is pretty evenly matched for most of it.
Even early 2003 Clone Wars Anakin dealt with Force attacks from multiple directions, far better than this jobbing version. And that was when he was in the air, mid-swing
Dealing with objects thrown by tk isn’t same thing as dealing with forces pushes since the former is easier to dodge and can actually be dealt with via lightsaber.
and easily grabbed and overpowered her, when he had no weapon. And forced her to drop a Saber with pure strength alone
He initially struggled with her strength and it took serval seconds for her to actually drop it due the pain. Plus, he was the using the dark side here so it’s not base Anakin. Also, Ventress had disarmed him right before this.
And TCW movie Anakin managed to keep up with Dooku when he went all-out. Unlike his fight with Ventress. Where he was clearly affected by plot. And not allowing him to even Force-Push her. While Ventress was allowed to use the Force to her liking. And clearly needed that eye-roll move(?) to take him and Ahsoka on
What about his season 3 fights with Ventress where they exchanged force pushes? Also, I could argue only using the force once, despite it being very effective and taking her time to kill Anakin instead of doing it immediately means PIS is actually in Anakin’s favor, especially since Filoni had no problem completely retconning Ventress’s story whereas Anakin has to live. If you want to say Anakin not using the force is PIS, fine but sabers portion of the duel is fair game. As for the eye-roll move, I have no idea wtf that was but could just her refocusing rather than a significant amp. The only thing she did after that was disengage and reengage them so she could get out of the bladelock. Even if you want to disregard it as an amped feat, there’s still 3 other TCW fights after this that show Ventress~Anakin
So base early war Anakin managed to disarm, and forced Ventress to retreat high up in the trees. Which happened before the rage-amp. Which is enough proof that he's above her even then.
I agree he’s superior here but the multiples bouts they have where Ventress matches him shows they’re not that far off(Before 2:19 and 3:17 - 4:15). Even in the part you‘re referring to, Ventress was forcing him back. Also, it is easier to disarm Jar’kai users since they only one hand for each lightsaber.
Not even a simple push at the beginning of the fight while Ventress was talking. And allowed her to join her Sabers.
Ventress had the same opportunity and there are multiple point in the OCW fight where both Anakin and Ventress are standing still and doing nothing.
That's Plot Induced Stupidity, as clear as day. Denying it, and trying to act as if Anakin, who got stronger from early war & AoTC. Being able to give Dooku some issue as PIS doesn't work. Cause unlike Ventress. Anakin's potential as the Chosen One allows him to grow in power faster than Kenobi, Maul, or Dooku. And goes from giving Dooku a decent fight and losing. To stomping him once he let's go of all his fears and worries. And then from that you get an above RoTS Sidious KFV. All in the span of a week.
Yes, his potential allowed him to go from giving Dooku issues to being matched by someone vastly below Dooku. His potential doesn’t make up for the fact that he’s been matched Ventress far more than he’s matched Dooku(By season 4). Letting go of his fears and worries isn‘t something he can achieve until RotS so I don’t care about that.
No it's not. Because they're both morals-off in this fight. Which means Anakin won't be jobbing and holding back against Kenobi. He'll go all-out. So his performance against Dooku in a weaker version is still relevant. You can't handwave it with a strawman like this.
Anakin actually needs motivation to go all-out, otherwise he’d be drawing on his emotions or tapping into his potential in every fight that’s difficult for him and in the TCW movie fight, he’s not doing either. Your point of contention with my argument is that Anakin is morals off here so the Dooku fight still applies not that your argument misrepresented so I don’t know why you think I’m straw-manning have you
If you can find a source that confirms he was amped to the point where he could do what he did, then sure. But as it is now, he was actually willing to kill Asajj and no longer holding back
He’s visibly angry and thinks that she framed Ahsoka. Growth is an easier argument to make since Anakin hasn’t dominated her like this before(while in base)
And the fact that Dooku prefers to take him out in Sabers, while he neggs Asajj in Force. Backs up the idea that Anakin is leagues above her in Force as well. When not affected by Filoni-Force, of course.
Dooku fought Ventress in sabers though. Plus, this implication is contradicted by explicit showings of Ventress blocking or taking Anakin’s tk
Not when she can take out Kenobi with a kick to the chest. When said character took worse and kept fighting.
My argument is in regards to the 1st Anakin & Obi-wan vs Ventress fight, not the 2nd one
Dooku still has that AoTC Yoda level power. And high-tier augmentation to boot
And ROTS Anakin has ROTS Yoda level+ power according to the statements you show later on
So getting staggered by a kick isn't a bad thing. And let's not act like it was a regular kick either. It sent him flying and hitting the wall
Ventress’s kick sent Obi-wan flying pretty far as well
And that's before he goes into Zonakin. So I don't see what you're trying to say here.
Less powerful characters can incap more powerful characters with kicks
The intent of him keeping up with Dooku due to his immense potential is clear, and backed up by feats.
And contradicted by even more
No. Anakin was actually staggered heavily by it. From the expression and the way his body moved after the push. While Ventress just got on her knees. And wasn't even pushed as hard as he did by them both. And a double Force-Push should at least be equal, or around her push. Which clearly wasn't the case from their push not even cracking the glass Ventress was thrown against
Ventress moved the exact same way except she couldn’t upright while Anakin could. Ventress has much better feats than sub glass level so the glass not being cracked was most likely just because it’s easier to just not animate that.
No. Because unlike Asajj or Kenobi. Even early Anakin continued to grow thanks to his power and potential. Which is proven in AoTC, and season 4 where he surprised Dooku with his power after getting in a clash with him, and immediately tazzed by Magna-Guards
Before, and after he was down. And needed Dooku to choke and electrocute this already beaten Anakin to put him down for good
In this same fight Dooku casually dodged 2 of Anakin’s attacks and disarmed him after several seconds of fighting(After 1:50). Tanking the tazzing and the electrocution is an endurance feat which isn’t really relevant since Kenobi doesn’t use fl. Plus, Dooku is holding back here.
Do you Think Kenobi can do the same? Cause him getting negged by Maul in the Force says otherwise
I don‘t see how that we compare these 2 feats when they involve 2 completely different force attacks. Here’s a better comparison:
Loading Video...
Start at 1:33
Obi-wan shows a comparable force barrier to season 6 Anakin
Let alone actually fighting Dooku and doing as well as S4 Anakin did while fighting, and getting tagged by Magna-Guards at the same time, in multiple directions. And base RoTS Kenobi << Utapu Kenobi:
The amp Kenobi had on Utapu is something he could do at any time. Anyway, I think Obi-wan can replicate being disarmed by Dooku in less than 10 seconds. As for proof, Obi-wan is a threat to ROTS Dooku on his own(In legends):
To begin with, Anakin and Obi-Wan did well, pushing Dooku back and destroying the B2 droids. Realizing that each Jedi was a threat on their own, Dooku abruptly switched tactics.
The Star Wars Vehicle Collection #32
In canon, Obi-wan is confirmed to be more skilled than Anakin:
Gallery
“Infuriatingly, instead of a seared corpse cleaved in two, all Vader found of the man he had resented for so long was a lightsaber hilt and an empty robe. In what should have been a moment of long-anticipated satisfaction, the defeat of his former master proof that he had finally eclipsed Obi-Wan Kenobi in lightsaber skills, Darth Vader had to face the fact that he had been outwitted.”(Skywalker: Family At War)
I was under the impression that "random encounter" meant simply that the encounter was random in nature -- e.g., no prior preparation. The wording itself would not indicate that the characters lose all knowledge of each other.
@lord_tenebrous: I saw other people use "Random Encounter" to showcase that the characters know nothing of each other.
If such was your intent, then so shall it be. However, my question then, on second thought, would be as to which version of season 4 Anakin Skywalker is being discussed -- in Star Wars: The Clone Wars, the aforementioned Jedi Knight undergoes only two noticeable growth spurts, one of which takes place within season 4.
Count Dooku and Anakin Skywalker duel twice in season 4, with Naboo being the arena on both occasions. The first fight establishes where Anakin places currently, and that's at a level where he can match Dooku in bladework, as well as overpower the older man physically:
It is their second encounter on Naboo, several episodes later, that marks Anakin's transition from simply being Dooku's match, to having what it takes to hold the upper hand over the Count:
Anakin essentially slides into his prime here, more or less. The TCW team further emphasized his power increase with the marked difference between his various reactions to a MagnaGuard's electrostaff:
First encounter on Naboo, Anakin is nearly disabled by the shock -- by contrast, in their second encounter, he completely tanks it. I wager that was intentional on the part of the writers.
Absent characteristic foreknowledge and flaws, I'd favour Anakin Skywalker over Obi-Wan Kenobi as of season 1, at least for a majority. By season 4, however many rounds Obi-Wan can take would depend on which version being used. Regardless, Obi-Wan would pose a formidable challenge for any incarnation of his former apprentice.
Log in to comment