ROTS Yoda vs OWK Darth Vader

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CatMan6

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Poll ROTS Yoda vs OWK Darth Vader (38 votes)

Yoda 42%
Vader 58%
No Caption Provided

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Rules:

OWK Darth Vader

ROTS Yoda

Both fighters are in their base state

In-character

standard weapons for all

Round 1: sabers only

Round 2: Force only

Round 3: All out

Bonus round: Yoda gets joined by ROTS Windu

Who wins?

 • 
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Lord_Tenebrous

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Well, in the Star Wars: Obi-Wan Kenobi television show, we bear witness to Darth Vader at the height of his considerable powers, and his brutal strength is rather overwhelming for most. However, as the show's name suggests, Lord Vader's thematic foil is the distinguished Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the two men engage in an epic, grueling struggle for supremacy on a desolate moon in the Jabiim system. Both swordsmen and practitioners of the Force were at their mightiest, yet equally matched, the advantage shifting back and forth from moment to moment. At one point, Lord Vader gained the upper hand, both with his physical skills and his dark powers -- at the next, Master Kenobi took the advantage with his physical skills and valiant powers, eventually bringing the brutal contest to a close.

The ancient Yoda, however, is the Grand Master of the Jedi Order -- foremost among the Jedi, chief of their Masters; the Master, he is called, and demonstrated precisely why on Geonosis, where his spectacular skills forced the elegant Count Dooku to retreat. Obi-Wan Kenobi, by contrast, has always found himself outfought by the Count, and painfully so. In the overarching narrative of the story, Master Yoda serves as the light side parallel of the most wicked and dangerous of the Dark Lords, Emperor Palpatine. When the two supreme masters clashed in ferocious, intense battle within the Senate chamber on Coruscant, even the full power of the dark side proved unable to down the Grand Master; at every turn, whether in lightsaber combat or in contests of the Force, the Emperor found himself dominated and overmatched, frequently on the retreat, only barely managing to emerge on top. Darth Vader is a powerful Sith Lord, but he is the apprentice, not the master -- the next level down from Darth Sidious, just as Master Kenobi is the next level down from Grand Master Yoda.

He before whom even the Emperor trembled will not lose this match.

As for the imposing Mace Windu, the situation is similar -- he is a Jedi Master of higher calibre than Obi-Wan Kenobi, standing second only to Master Yoda; Darth Sidious likewise attempted to kill Master Windu with great ferocity, but failed, nearly losing his life in the process. Against this man, Darth Vader would find himself all the more out of his depth. He is a match for Master Kenobi -- Masters Yoda and Windu trump Emperor Palpatine.

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Ieatnettles

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#3  Edited By Ieatnettles

R1:Yoda wins in an extremely close fight

R2:Vader wins

R3:Vader wins in a good fight

Mace is enough to serve as a good distraction which is all Yoda needs

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Alekos

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R1:yoda

R2:vader

R3:vader

Bonus:yoda+windu

probably but haven't seen star wars in a while

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Ieatnettles

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@alekos said:

R1:yoda

R2:vader

R3:vader

Bonus:yoda+windu

probably but haven't seen star wars in a while

Yep I agree with this

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frozen

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#6 frozen  Moderator

Yoda wins round 1 extreme diff. Vader wins other 2 high diff. The amped Kenobi who beat Vader would mid diff Yoda.

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Eredin12

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Yea I think Yoda can edge it out in saber fight but Vader can overpower him with force in other rounds, though it would be good fight.

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Sav0

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#8  Edited By Sav0

R1: Yoda

R2: Vader

R3: Either way depending on how they fight - giving slight advantage to Vader.

Bonus: Yoda and Mace win.

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Zapan871

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#9  Edited By Zapan871

Yoda in sabers

Vader wins the Force round.

All out? Not sure. Depends on how much of an advantage Yoda manages to get in sabers, especially if Vader doesn't get to use his greater Force power. I bet the latter could at least block some of Yoda's saber blows via Force freezing, like he did with Kenobi, though. Might give it to Yoda, though.

Yoda+Windu is too much, at least for this Vader.

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MaulSmacker

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Vader wins overall

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kingogkings777

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dark_globe

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#12  Edited By dark_globe

yoda wins round 1 high diff .

yoda wins round 2 extreme diff. or they split

yoda wins round 3 high/extreme diff.

bonus: duo low. diff / stomps

yoda has to work for it but he folds this vader every single time in sabers and all out .


OWK/rebels vader is still dooku/windu level
he did nothing (pre ANH period) so far to prove otherwise .

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Eisenfauste

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Yoda.

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thenamelessone

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#14  Edited By thenamelessone

@dark_globe: How so?

OWK Darth Vader was written to obliterate Obi-Wan Kenobi, he won in 30 seconds and forced him to walk away from him, comparatively ROTS Vader could not even defeat the same Obi-Wan in the longest duel in Star Wars history, abusing force and everything he had, he was still not victorious.

and we know that ROTS Vader is vastly superior to Count Dooku and Mace Windu by basic scaling, considering even Jedi Anakin was held in higher regard than Mace by Yoda, who considered Anakin the strongest Jedi he met in 900 years in the force and his offense is stated to be peerless among the Jedi.

there is really no logical way you can argue OWK Vader as inferior to anyone in ROTS with the exception of Sidious.

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macattack1

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#15  Edited By macattack1

Been done so many times. Why make it again?

R1: Yoda comfortably, mid diff at worst

R2: Yoda, but with high diff

R3: Yoda, mid or high diff

Bonus: Duo win low diff, mismatch

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ExiledUhu

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#16  Edited By ExiledUhu

Yoda.

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CatMan6

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Been done so many times. Why make it again?

All threads have been about prime vader or something. OWK Vader is a much closer fight

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frozen

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#18  Edited By frozen  Moderator
@dark_globe said:

OWK/rebels vader is still dooku/windu level

he did nothing (pre ANH period) so far to prove otherwise .

OWK Vader is repeatedly stated as > KFV by showrunners in power and beat Pre pit Kenobi. Meanwhile the non hindered KFV couldn’t beat Kenobi.

So yes, KFV is hard locked. Either Dooku or Windu get slammed. Especially Dooku.

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SonOfDarkness

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dark_globe

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#20  Edited By dark_globe
@thenamelessone said:

@dark_globe: How so?

OWK Darth Vader was written to obliterate Obi-Wan Kenobi, he won in 30 seconds and forced him to walk away from him, comparatively ROTS Vader could not even defeat the same Obi-Wan in the longest duel in Star Wars history, abusing force and everything he had, he was still not victorious.

and we know that ROTS Vader is vastly superior to Count Dooku and Mace Windu by basic scaling, considering even Jedi Anakin was held in higher regard than Mace by Yoda, who considered Anakin the strongest Jedi he met in 900 years in the force and his offense is stated to be peerless among the Jedi.

there is really no logical way you can argue OWK Vader as inferior to anyone in ROTS with the exception of Sidious.

1.) mustafar duel serves as nothing more than a plot device for the OT


2.) if they wanted to make kenobi this strong they should have portrayed him as such and
not make him to be dookus bitch in AoTC , the entirety of TCW and also in RoTS
the mustafar fight would be far less stupid if they depicted kenobi as peer to yoda and sidious .
as it stands it is just an outlier .
remove plot armour and high ground (stupid writing) and KFV folds mustofi 1000 out of 1000 times .

3.) in RoTS just prior to mustafar events
yoda straight up tells kenobi to his face that obiwank has zero chance vs sheev
and it would be futile to send him after the emperor
(which debunks the myth of kenobis imaginary growth -
some believe he jumped 2 stomp gaps in 3 days
in between IH and mustafar evens and went from being dookus toy to being a
strongest titan or titan+ level all by "natural growth" which is straight up ridiculous
not even anakin has this kind of potential let alone kenobi
who was considered one of the lesser naturally gifted FUs in the order)
(my other favourite fan fic theory is that kenobi achieved some sort of oneness
with the force in those few seconds
after jumping on the lava bank and gaining the high ground advantage and
this "gave him power" to chopp anakin up .

4.) styles make fights (to an extend)
kenobi was a defensive fighter and he was well aware anakin is aggressive and arrogant ,
furthermore he knew anakins style inside and out
(it goes both ways of course but THE master of soresu has the advantage
he just needs to wait for an opening
kenobi is the best defensive duelist in the entire lore)

5.) despite all previously mentioned factors
KFV has the upper hand basically throughout the entire duel ,
mustobi has to gain an unfair advantage and use anakins arrogance against him to win .

6.) OWK vader beats PTSD rustobi who did not held a lightsaber in a decade and
severed his connection to the force
even if his force connection was revigorated there is simply no
logical explanation for him to be as sharp as he was in his peak in RoTS .
(this kenobi is even more sub dooku as he was in RoTS -
even if we grand him the same level of force power
he is still 10 years out of practice with the lightsaber)

7.) it takes OWK vader much longer than 30 seconds to win the first part of their duel .
by my count the first part is almost 2 minutes long (1:50 something)
which is a very long duel by starwars standards .

8.) in the second part of the duel amped twinobi (who is around titan level) completely obliterates vader .

9.) there is no way OWK vader is above titans if sub dooku ahsoka can give rebels vader
(who is 6 years older and should also be stronger) a decent and almost 2 minutes long fight .

10.) RoTS yoda has a stylistic advantage VS far less agile suit vader
yodas ataru would be a stylistic nightmare for vader in a duel .


result:

RoTS YODA wins .

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#21  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@dark_globe:

1.) mustafar duel serves as nothing more than a plot device for the OT

Nonsense. Nobody is buying your “the Mustafar duel is PIS” claim. It’s an integral part of lore.

2.) if they wanted to make kenobi this strong they should have portrayed him as such

That’s exactly what they did:

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not make him to be dookus bitch in AoTC , the entirety of TCW and also in RoTS

Nobody cares about TCW here. Completely irrelevant. Funnily enough if you go with TCW scaling, Anakin has issues with pirate Hondo and is given a “hard” fight by Barris, a Padawan. Not exactly someone who is titan level.

the mustafar fight would be far less stupid if they depicted kenobi as peer to yoda and sidious .

Anakin‘s not even depicted as peer to them by feats alone, unlsss you think Barris is Yoda level. In the season 6 vision, he’s thrown aside as fodder. He only has a few statements of being there with his dark side iteration.

as it stands it is just an outlier .

The biggest most important duel in Star Wars lore is not an outlier.

remove plot armour and high ground (stupid writing) and KFV folds mustofi 1000 out of 1000 times .

He didn’t need the high ground to match him. The junior novel also says he could beat him if he “lets go” and gives himself to the force earlier into the fight, which is what he did in OWK when he escaped the pit.

3.) in RoTS just prior to mustafar events

yoda straight up tells kenobi to his face that obiwank has zero chance vs sheev and it would be futile to send him after the emperor

Yeah, read your own posts lmao. If Yoda tells Obi Wan he’s not strong enough to fight the emperor, what do you think that means for KFV? Lmao. It would mean that Yoda puts him below Sidious too by your own logic. Which means Yoda thinks he is an Obi Wan level fighter. You are very good at discredit yourself.

Also, it’s stated that Yoda wasn’t strong enough to face the emperor either.

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What Yoda is saying is that Obi Wan can’t BEAT the emperor, but it’s later shown that neither can Yoda.

some believe he jumped 2 stomp gaps in 3 days

in between IH and mustafar evens and went from being dookus toy to being a

Nope. If you read the junior novel, you would see he was off guarded.And if you believe that Kenobi didn’t grow and wasn’t off guarded, then the idea of Dooku ragdolling still makes zero sense. Anakin couldn’t ragdoll Obi Wan on mustafar. Vader couldn’t do it either. Dooku is not doing it under normal circumstances.

strongest titan or titan+ level all by "natural growth" which is straight up ridiculous

Not as ridiculous as claiming that the fight is PIS.

not even anakin has this kind of potential let alone kenobi

Incorrect.

who was considered one of the lesser naturally gifted FUs in the order)

Incorrect.

(my other favourite fan fic theory is that kenobi achieved some sort of oneness

The only fan fiction is Kenobi vs Anakin being PIS.

after jumping on the lava bank and gaining the high ground advantage and this "gave him power" to chopp anakin up .

Incorrect. Nobody has claimed he needed the high ground to win.

4.) styles make fights (to an extend)

kenobi was a defensive fighter and he was well aware anakin is aggressive and arrogant ,

furthermore he knew anakins style inside and out

(it goes both ways of course but THE master of soresu has the advantage

Styles making fights does not change that Kenobi can hold up in stats and match his force clash. Essentially you’re conceding that Kenobi is close in this regard.

KFV has the upper hand basically throughout the entire duel ,

Incorrect and rejected by every canon source imaginable. Stated they’re evenly matched on the databank and a dozen other official sources.

mustobi has to gain an unfair advantage and use anakins arrogance against him to win .

Cope.

6.) OWK vader beats PTSD rustobi who did not held a lightsaber in a decade and severed his connection to the force

even if his force connection was revigorated there is simply no

logical explanation for him to be as sharp as he was in his peak in RoTS .

Incorrect. The choreographer who recounted Deb said he’s “not that different“ to ROTS. Deb also says he’s “in his prime“ (he can’t be “in his prime“ if he’s mega rusty). So your attempt to exaggerate the rust won‘t work.

(this kenobi is even more sub dooku as he was in RoTS -

Incorrect. He’s above Dooku. He can match KFV and give OWK Vader a tough fight.

even if we grand him the same level of force power

he is still 10 years out of practice with the lightsaber)

Debunked.

which is a very long duel by starwars standards .

Taking 2.5 mins to beat Obi Wan > being matched by him for 8 minutes.

Also, Vader isn’t even “obliterated“ post pit. He drives Obi Wan back after being hit by rocks, force pulled him and briefly matched saberlocks. He was mid diffed.

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Ieatnettles

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Re-evaluating

Round 1:Yoda low-mid diff due to style advantage

Round 2:Vader low-mid diff

Round 3:tie

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#23  Edited By thenamelessone

@dark_globe:

1. I'm Sorry? the entireity of the prequel trilogy function as a trilogy of side films intended to add onto the main films, every single element of the prequels adhere to the original trilogy.

the Mustafar fight is the most important and built up moment in Star Wars history, George Lucas was planning out the fight since the Empire Strikes Back days, the fight is referenced in the very first duel in Star Wars, why would any of it be ignored for the sake of debating? the fact is, Anakin and Obi-Wan were even, stroke for stroke, blow for blow, same way they were in Episode IV, same way they were in Kenobi twice.

these two have battled four times, even every time, why do you believe that Star Wars ever intended anything other than them being very close with their unique advantages?

2. Uh, No.

Kenobi has always been portrayed as powerful, matching Vader twice, defeat Grievous, defeating the Zabrak brothers in a 1v2 and so forth, sure thing he is portrayed as sub Dooku for a while, but so is Anakin, is he weak? No.

why is the Mustafar fight an outlier and not the far less relevant Invisible hand fight? not that it matters, because Kenobi did have huge growth in both continuities, Matthew Stover's concepts live on.

How is Obi-Wan gaining the high ground an advantage? an unfair one, or bad writing? Highground is useful in fights generally, you get the opportunity to maul your opponent when he tries to get to you.

3. Star Wars is ridiculous, you find that ridiculous but you don't find the idea that Obi-Wan went blow to blow with the strongest sith of all time ridiculous? Obi-Wan does have growth in ROTS, in both continuities, he lets go of his fear on Utapau which is a huge boost for force users, remember that Cere Junda simply let her fear go and she went from being a hand gesture level fly to Vader, to being a highly formidable challenge for Vader, and then on Mustafar he lets go of everything and fights for his life, something Mace Windu does in the office or Yoda in the senate, both gaining new powers, so Obi-Wan doesn't reach that level via natural growth.

he reach that level via being the ideal Jedi, Luminous beings are we, not this brood matter

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The force transcends the physical, it's the very nature of it to do extraordinary thing, and it does do it for someone who completely submits himself to the force like Obi-Wan does, the moment Luke did it, he managed to do the logically impossible by being accurate enough to blow up the Death Star, and Kenobi having growth in power is an unbelievable notion to you?

Obi-Wan is portrayed as that strong, in his very first appearance he fought the best duelist in the galaxy and was implied to be the greatest Jedi of all time ffs.

Yoda doesn't tell Kenobi that he has no chance, the context of the film was for Yoda and Kenobi to kill Sidious and Anakin, what Yoda said was that Obi-Wan was not strong enough to defeat Sidious, I don't think anyone has Mustafar Kenobi above Sidious, at the end, neither Yoda nor Kenobi were strong enough to defeat the Emperor, Yoda was stronger than Kenobi by a little and thus had the better chance.

I mean, it's not a headcanon, it's vertabim stated that Obi-Wan jumped over and got the high ground, he was being controlled by the force, The Oneness is a thing and it is what allowed Kanan Jarrus to destroy the vastly superior Darth Maul in five seconds flat, you may not like the concept but it has been there since 1977.

Obi-Wan was never considered a lesser talented force user by the way, that's just YouTube nonsense. Yoda, Qui-Gon Jinn, Mace, Tyranus and later even Anakin held him in really high regard in both continuities.

4. What?

Anakin's aggressive duelling is just as formidable as Kenobi's defensive, they both knew each other's moves, sure Kenobi was looking for an opening and yes he was weaker.

why does it matter? he made up for less speed, power and strength by superior skill, experience and intelligence, in atleast two scenes they go blow for blow with each other, get in even wrestling contests and get in even saber locks on three occasions, even having an even force contest.

sure, Anakin was better, but Kenobi was not that far behind in strength and power, it can be seen in their wrestling contest.

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or their super energized saberlock.

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Anakin is stronger, not in a relevant manner though.

5. Sure, he had the upper hand, but having an upper hand for 8 minutes means nothing if you don't win, that's like being in a boxing match and putting your opponent on the defensive for 8 minutes but never actually getting that punch in, it's meaningless.

6.Nonsense.

the PTSD is gone, he is mentally at peace by the time he fights Vader, fully intending to kill him, the flashbacks only happen when he is literally buried and when he is letting it all go.

he had more depression and PTSD on Mustafar.

Obi-Wan is stated to be in his prime in this show, and to be back at full powers, once he reconnected to the force all his powers simply returned, he is Mustafar Kenobi, there is absolutely no difference between the two, the only real difference is Mustafar Kenobi is worse at suppressing his emotions and is implied a little more skilled but is also said by the same people to be weaker.

7. That was a pure lightsaber contest, where Vader was playing defensive for some reason and accidentally gave Obi-Wan the tempo, he ended up toying with him, as displayed by one hand usage.

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and then he reffered to a defensive Jedi stance best for blaster bolt deflection, and one that requires agility, something he logically cannot use.

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which gave the lightsaber duel an interesting outlook, as this time Vader was on the defensive and Kenobi on the aggressive, opposite of Mustafar.

when Vader started using force and went on the offensive, Obi-Wan lost in 30 seconds flat.

8. There is nothing to say Twin amped Kenobi is "around titan level", he can easily be beyond it, Twin amped Kenobi didn't obliterate him either, his force attacks were no sold and he was overpowered physically, his saber was also frozen in air.

Vader keeps up in saber and even freezes his lightsaber in air.

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Vader no sold hundreds of rocks from him, all infused with his force power.

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Vader completely overpowers him in a saberlock, smashing him through rocks and knocking him down.

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he even lands a force pull on Kenobi, which requires defense penatration.

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he had to use sith tactics to win, though he was clearly better by then, but as it stands, he had decent challenge in Vader, Twin amped Kenobi is not locked under anyone except ANH Vader and above.

9. that fight is around 53 seconds, Darth Tyranus battled AOTC Obi-Wan and Anakin for 30 and 40 seconds respectively, coming off at 70 seconds, are we implying that dictates Obi-Wan and Anakin were close to Tyranus even as a team?

10. Eh, not really.

Yoda gets in saberlocks often, and Vader is not much slower than MFK and KFV, actually due to his janky look he just looks slower, he matches the speed pretty well.

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plus Vader can just abuse the force if he finds it too difficult.

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Sav0

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@frozen said:

Yoda wins round 1 extreme diff. Vader wins other 2 high diff. The amped Kenobi who beat Vader would mid diff Yoda.

I don't think round 1 is extreme diff. Pre pit Kenobi (who is roughly MFK with slight rust) is able to push Vader back for a long time. The duel starts outside of the rocks and Vader is being pushed back all the way inside the rocks.

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This is where Kenobi is going on offense (who is mainly defensive fighter). And the next cut we see them fighting deep inside the rocks with Kenobi still pushing Vader back who is barely able to keep up and at one point needs to hold the rock to keep himself from falling.

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While the same MFK (without any rust) was being pushed back by MFV for pretty much entirety of ROTS duel. I didn't take post pit part of the duel in account because you only need to imagine what Yoda does to this Vader in the same amount of time.

Yoda slams in sabers imo.

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Eredin12

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#25  Edited By Eredin12

@sav0: Director herself confirmed that Kenobi and Vader were completely equally matched in duel to the point that Deborah event went as far as to note that it " could have gone forever". So no, Vader did not " barely keep up", he was equally matching Mustafar-level Kenobi in skill overall per person who made that scene. Vader being on defensive and walking backwards in certain parts is not really indication that Kenobi had some notable edge; in fact when Vader went on offense instead, he was able to overcome Kenobi's defenses and land hit on him as well, something Kenobi could not do to Vader. This is the same Kenobi who was an overall match for prime Anakin. Yoda has done nothing really to indicate he is far beyond that Kenobi, let alone that he slams. In fact, he could not even slam Dooku, who is not as good a duelist as this Vader or Kenobi.

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@eredin12 said:

@sav0: Director herself confirmed that Kenobi and Vader were completely equally matched in duel to the point that it could have " gone forever". So no, Vader did not " barely keep up", he was equally matching Mustafar-level Kenobi in skill per person who made that scene. Vader being on defensive and walking backwards in certain parts is not really indication that Kenobi had some notable edge; in fact when Vader went on offense instead, he was able to overcome Kenobi's defenses and land hit on him as well, something Kenobi could not do to Vader. This is the same Kenobi who was an overall match for prime Anakin. Yoda has done nothing really to indicate he is far beyond that Kenobi, let alone that he slams. In fact, he could not even slam Dooku, who is not as good a duelist as this Vader.

I do think Yoda would win in duel, but it is not nearly that one-sided and Vader definitely beats him overall due to larger force edge.

Author's word is fine but I am only analyzing the scene itself and thats not how the duel goes there. Its clear that MFK was pushing back this Vader and that at one point after Kenobi strikes Vader, he needs to hold the rock to keep himself from falling down.

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Also keep in mind that every author will pass eventually and their words are subject to retcon while scenes remain forever. This is why I hold the scenes themselves above what author says. If Vader got pushed back by pre pit Kenobi you only need to imagine what Yoda would do in the same amount of time. Yoda might not slam but its not an extreme diff either.

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#27  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@sav0:

Vader starts the fight one handed, and is able to actually match a two handed Kenobi for a while.

Vader sparks his own blade and attacks. The two of them fight in a clash of blue and red. Each skillfully parry erupts in a flurry of sparks. A view from overheard swirls around the heated combat. Obi Wan gymnastically tumbles away from his adversary and continues the battle from one knee. As their blades lock together he returns to his feet and tries to connect with a mighty lunge. The two of them briefly find themselves fighting back to back. Each spinning to try and gain the upper hand on the other."

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The issue is that fighting one handed was a mistake. Kenobi is too strong to fight like this for too long. So once forces Vader to go defensive, he already has his rythym.

“A couple of strong swings put Vader on the defensive"

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Deborah says that OWK Vader is equally matched with Pre pit Kenobi in duelling, which is how MFV vs MFK is described. So there is no difference in how MFV vs MFK is described compared to how pre pit Kenobi vs OWK Vader is described.

There’s also moments off screen, but if we look closely we can see that Kenobi has to roll around a lot to avoid Vader‘s strikes:

Even after Kenobi rams him back in saberlock, he has to out manaeuver Vader in the tight space by rolling around:

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We then see that Vader manages to get the offensive and presses it:

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If left to their own devices, Chow thinks they can duel forever, much like Mustafar:

These two are pretty evenly matched. And throughout the fight it sort of ebbs and flows as to who has the upper hand. But you know, these are two guys who could just go on and fight to the death forever”

Deb also says they’re equally matched as duelists.

Also, MFK is very much choosing to fight defensively.

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Fighting OWK Vader offensively is a deliberate decision he made for some reason. He adopted the soresu stance then switched offensive, indicating he baited him.

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Eredin12

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#28  Edited By Eredin12

@sav0:

Author's word is fine but I am only analyzing the scene itself

Analyzing can at times lead to subjective interpretations, though , but the author's word can clarify which one of those is true(unless source material just flat out contradicts what author said, which is not really case here). You say that what the author said can be retconned, but that is true with any canonical material, any movie, book, or game can be retconned by newer content that contradicts it, but unless there is something that currently retcons it, word of the author is useful for clarifying things where multiple interpretations could otherwise be possible.

and thats not how the duel goes there. Its clear that MFK was pushing back this Vader and that at one point after Kenobi strikes Vader, he needs to hold the rock to keep himself from falling down.

This is not clear though, Vader was walking backwards in some parts, that is true, but Vader choosing to be on the defensive for time( by specifically taking a defensive stance before he and Kenobi started clashing), and not always even during that part as Frozen pointed to above, does not mean he was less skilled; it is not like Kenobi could do something with it and land hits, Vader was still keeping up with him overall, blocking his blows and forcing him to dodge his. Sure, Kenobi staggered Vader at one point, but when Vader later used his usual stance and went on offense himself, he actually overcame Kenobi's defenses and landed clean hits on him, which is just as good or better than staggering your enemy, which matches what director said, that they were overall equally matched duelists.

If Vader got pushed back by pre pit Kenobi you only need to imagine what Yoda would do in the same amount of time. Yoda might not slam but its not an extreme diff either.

Again, your opponent moving backward for the time when he specifically chooses a defensive stance while blocking each and every one of your hits with you never once coming close to landing anything does not mean Kenobi was notably more skilled , overall two were equally matched in a duel and Yoda is not much better than this Kenobi either. So I would imagine he would not do anything drastically different even though I do think he can eventually win in duel. Tired Dooku already matched Yoda for almost a minute for example, and he is not as good a duelist as Vader and Kenobi.

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Round 1 - Yoda solely because of skill and style advantage, Vader holds a lot of duelling advantages.

Round 2 - Vader in every metric

Round 3 - Vader 7/10

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Yoda.

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#32  Edited By macattack1

@frozen: where is all this ‘MFV was unhindered’ nonsense coming from? Is it just some attempt to upscale Kenobi to ROTS titans? Therefore excusing Vaders difficulty against him?

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#33  Edited By frozen  Moderator
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@frozen said:

@dark_globe:

Nonsense. Nobody is buying your “the Mustafar duel is PIS” claim. It’s an integral part of lore.

you know one doesn´t necessarily exclude the other .
it´s not like star-wars is a shakespearean level tragedy (in terms of writing quality) .

the duel might be integral part of the lore and
it is also the bestly choreographed duel in the lore to this date .

but it still doesn´t change the fact that in terms of writing and established in lore power levels
this duel is stupid AF and serves as a plot device for the OT to get vader into his suit .



2.) if they wanted to make kenobi this strong they should have portrayed him as such

That’s exactly what they did:

no they didn´t

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Nobody cares about TCW here. Completely irrelevant.

it is relevant in terms of power dynamics between characters which remain consistent in this case
i just pointed out kenobi is consistently depicted as dookus victim throughout the entire saga
and it doesn´t change in RoTS .


Funnily enough if you go with TCW scaling, Anakin has issues with pirate Hondo

so ?! RoTJ luke has problems with random thugs and doors .
it doesn´t stop you from claiming he is stomp gap above titans .
he can´t even mind control rancor
(something grogu can do casually -
so is grogu titan + by your logic ?! i though not)




Not exactly someone who is titan level.

THIS IS NOT EXACTLY TITAN LEVEL EITHER

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and is given a “hard” fight by Barris, a Padawan.

vastly pre prime holding back anakin who just wanted to disarm her
whereas she was amped by the dark side and going for the kill
also "a hard fight" is a wild exaggeration
once anakin had enough of the shenanigans he subdued and ragdolled her easily .




the mustafar fight would be far less stupid if they depicted kenobi as peer to yoda and sidious .

Anakin‘s not even depicted as peer to them by feats alone, unlsss you think Barris is Yoda level. In the season 6 vision, he’s thrown aside as fodder. He only has a few statements of being there with his dark side iteration.

DS anakin trashed dooku in less than 15 seconds .

kenobi is and always will be dookus victim .
anakin was depicted as a FU who can low.diff. someone who is close to being yodas peer .

whereas kenobi is depicted as a ragdoll material in comparison to titans .

The biggest most important duel in Star Wars lore is not an outlier.

i explained this in my first column .
and sadly yes it is in terms of power dynamics between characters .

He didn’t need the high ground to match him.

he did because despite stupid writing kenobi still needed some sort of an unfair advantage to beat anakin
he also needed anakin to make an arrogant mistake .



Yeah, read your own posts lmao. If Yoda tells Obi Wan he’s not strong enough to fight the emperor, what do you think that means for KFV?
Which means Yoda thinks he is an Obi Wan level fighter

not even close. lol

yoda is well aware anakin was skilled and powerful enough to kill dooku
he was also aware dooku was just a puppet to even more powerful sith lord
yoda simply played the cards dealt to him -

also yodas strategic priority is to deal with sidious and don´t give him time to consolidate his new empire -
after all sidious is in control of everything and has all the political power
if he falls his entire new empire falls like a house of cards as well
anakin may be powerful FU but he has zero political influence
hence anakin is not yodas strategic priority .
yoda can always deal with anakin later if obi-wan fails .


It would mean that Yoda puts him below Sidious too by your own logic

putting someone slightly below sidious VS
knowing there is absolutely zero chance kenobi can even fight palpatine are two different things .
yoda already had a vision of anakin killing dooku and himself fighting sidious pretty much on equal terms
(both of these events eventually came true , even though it was a ritual originally designed to break yoda)
sidious himself as of TCW is not confident enough that he can beat yoda and tells dooku they need more time .
hence one of the reasons why sidiouses first reaction when yoda finally confronts him is to flee rather than fight
but yoda blocks the exit .
whereas sidious never even considered obi-wan to be a threat to his power -
sidious can always send his errant boy dooku to deal with kenobi .

so yoda (given all the informations he has at that point)
has at least some kind of a fighting chance vs sidious

whereas obi-wan (based on his performances vs dooku) has zero chance .
yoda also knows kenobi is more than familiar with anakins fighting style .
anakin is also far less important (politically) .


You are very good at discredit yourself.

it is you who is discrediting himself as seen below .


Also, it’s stated that Yoda wasn’t strong enough to face the emperor either.

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What Yoda is saying is that Obi Wan can’t BEAT the emperor, but it’s later shown that neither can Yoda.

this is so blatantly dishonest . lol
(not even you can believe in what you just wrote)

the difference being yoda gave sidious a fight of his life , disarmed him in lightsaber combat
and only lost due to bad luck (fall) and lack of time to carry on fighting
(clones already closing in on their location)
whereas kenobi would get straight up ragdolled or one shot by palpatine .
so yeah they would both lose to sidious
but it is a stomp gap decimation
vs extreme diff./ split decisionfight

Nope. If you read the junior novel, you would see he was off guarded.And if you believe that Kenobi didn’t grow and wasn’t off guarded,

stop with this off guarded cope already
kenobi was always dookus victim and he was always depicted as such
he got straight up ragdolled by dooku in RoTS
so deal with it and stop denying on screen canon feats . lol .



Dooku ragdolling still makes zero sense. Anakin couldn’t ragdoll Obi Wan on mustafar.

thanks for proving my point .

based on all previous encounters and established power levels
it makes zero sense KFV is not able to ragdoll

sub dooku level opponent on mustafar
hence the stupid writing and PIS .


Dooku is not doing it under normal circumstances.

dooku can always toy with kenobi as he did on multiple occasions
he has his number . period .
if dooku can ragdoll him in 2v1
he can do it even more easily 1v1 .

Not as ridiculous as claiming that the fight is PIS.

sorry but sub dooku fodder matching KFV out of the blue is PIS .




not even anakin has this kind of potential let alone kenobi

Incorrect.

correct , anakin has vastly more growth potential than kenobi .

kenobi growing 2 tiers in 3 days is nonsense .




who was considered one of the lesser naturally gifted FUs in the order)

Incorrect.

correct




(my other favourite fan fic theory is that kenobi achieved some sort of oneness

The only fan fiction is Kenobi vs Anakin being PIS.

after jumping on the lava bank and gaining the high ground advantage and this "gave him power" to chopp anakin up .

Incorrect. Nobody has claimed he needed the high ground to win.

correct .
it is blatantly obvious on screen that he needed it
(or some sort of an advantage for that matter)
otherwise he would not be able to chopp anakins limbs off .
he also needed anakins arrogance to assist .

mustobi has to gain an unfair advantage and use anakins arrogance against him to win .

Cope.

it is you who is coping .
obviously kenobi needed an advantage to end the fight
otherwise it would be anyones guess of what the outcome would be .
(actually no it wouldn´t
remove plot armour and stupid writing and KFV murders this sub dooku fodder)




6.) OWK vader beats PTSD rustobi who did not held a lightsaber in a decade and severed his connection to the force

even if his force connection was revigorated there is simply no

logical explanation for him to be as sharp as he was in his peak in RoTS .

Incorrect. The choreographer who recounted Deb said he’s “not that different“ to ROTS. Deb also says he’s “in his prime“ (he can’t be “in his prime“ if he’s mega rusty). So your attempt to exaggerate the rust won‘t work.

this doesn´t even matter , rusty or not he is still sub dooku .




(this kenobi is even more sub dooku as he was in RoTS -

Incorrect. He’s above Dooku.

correct ,
he always was and always will be sub dooku .


He can match KFV and give OWK Vader a tough fight.

giving OWK vader a tough fight means nothing ,
OWK vader is dooku/windu level and kenobi still loses to vader

because just like dooku , vader also exploits the gap in force power between them and abuse the force to win
kenobi is a great duelist but he lacks force power - more powerful opponents always exploit this disadvantage
kenobi needs a one time twinobi amp which sends him over the edge and allows him to beat vader .



even if we grand him the same level of force power

he is still 10 years out of practice with the lightsaber)

Debunked.

not really
but it´s not even important for the sake of this debate .

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no version of yoda beats any adult Post AOTC version of Anakin

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dark_globe

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@frozen: Is it just some attempt to upscale Kenobi to ROTS titans? Therefore excusing Vaders difficulty against him?

basically yes , that is what is going on lately .
also RoTJ luke is being highballed to force god tier untouchable status .

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The idea of Anakin being hindered is cope in both continuities. Canon has made it even more clear. And LOL at the attempts to use the Dooku fight to low ball Kenobi. Dark_globe coming in with peak cope once again.

Vader probs takes it. Hard to see him duel Yoda though.

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@frozen: where is all this ‘MFV was unhindered’ nonsense coming from? Is it just some attempt to upscale Kenobi to ROTS titans? Therefore excusing Vaders difficulty against him?

You've missed a lot

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@ieatnettles: nah I’ve been watching, just don’t agree with it. Film makes it pretty clear Kenobi is not on the level of Yoda or Sidious, and was more a match for Anakin instead. Besides, he only did as well against Anakin as he did due to familiarity with his style and back peddling until Anakin did something stupid, so it’s not like Kenobi is on par with Anakin anyway, even IF we accept Anakin as unhindered during it.

So Kenobi still doesn’t scale to ROTS Titans and neither does Vader.

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Ieatnettles

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@ieatnettles: nah I’ve been watching, just don’t agree with it. Film makes it pretty clear Kenobi is not on the level of Yoda or Sidious, and was more a match for Anakin instead. Besides, he only did as well against Anakin as he did due to familiarity with his style and back peddling until Anakin did something stupid, so it’s not like Kenobi is on par with Anakin anyway, even IF we accept Anakin as unhindered during it.

So Kenobi still doesn’t scale to ROTS Titans and neither does Vader.

Mfv is potentially better than sidious or Yoda

And he's stated equal to mfv countless times

Owk Vader probably beats any rots titan

Prime Vader destroys them

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#42  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@dark_globe:

you know one doesn´t necessarily exclude the other .

Incorrect.

it´s not like star-wars is a shakespearean level tragedy (in terms of writing quality) .

Irrelevant.

but it still doesn´t change the fact that in terms of writing and established in lore power levels

The “established lore” frames it as an even fight. If you really are unwilling to accept that Kenobi grew or is titan level, then I’m afraid to inform you that there’s more to put KFV at Kenobi level than much higher than that. As I’ve informed you many many times, Disney KFV doesn’t have the same hype.

this duel is stupid AF

Your subjective opinion is irrelevant here. Nobody is buying your ”the Mustafar duel is PIS” claim.

and serves as a plot device for the OT to get vader into his suit .

Nobody cares.

no they didn´t

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Yes they did, in case you need to use your eyes again.

is relevant in terms of power dynamics between characters which remain consistent in this case

i just pointed out kenobi is consistently depicted as dookus victim throughout the entire saga

and it doesn´t change in RoTS .

As I said, completely and utterly irrelevant. If you’re going by “established power levels” from TCW (as if that’s a thing… characters grow, ESPECIALLY Anakin and Kenobi) then you are overlooking the fact that Anakin struggled with Hondo, a pirate. And was given a hard fight by a Padawan Barris late into The Clone Wars.

Trying to say ROTS Kenobi can’t fight Anakin because he’s sub Dooku during TCW is truly one of the takes of all time.

so ?! RoTJ luke has problems with random thugs and doors .

The difference here is that one is from 1983 and old technology. The other is if you are really wanting to invoke LA feats, you are in for a rough time.

Here’s your titan Yoda struggling to lift and guide a small pillar vs Vader yeeting a giant one against Kenobi’s own TK:

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vastly pre prime holding back anakin who just wanted to disarm her

whereas she was amped by the dark side and going for the kill

also "a hard fight" is a wild exaggeration

once anakin had enough of the shenanigans he subdued and ragdolled her easily .

LOL. So now Anakin suddenly isn’t capped at that level because he grows and is pre prime, yet Kenobi is capped by TCW? Nice hypocrisy there. You are exposing yourself.

DS anakin trashed dooku in less than 15 seconds .

Yes, a Dooku who lost to Quinlan Vos, random Jedi master some months prior.

kenobi is and always will be dookus victim .

Just as Anakin was Kenobi’s victim.

anakin was depicted as a FU who can low.diff. someone who is close to being yodas peer .

Dooku is not a Yoda peer. Stated repeatedly that Yoda trounced Dooku in their duel while holding back. Moreover, you’d be claiming KFV is >> Yoda if you truly think Dooku is a Yoda peer.

whereas kenobi is depicted as a ragdoll material in comparison to titans

Incorrect. This is what happened when Anakin tried to use the force on Kenobi.

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explained this in my first column .

and sadly yes it is in terms of power dynamics between characters .

Nobody is buying it.

he did because despite stupid writing kenobi still needed some sort of an unfair advantage to beat anakin

Him ”needing” the high ground to WIN doesn’t change that he spent 8 minutes MATCHING him without it. You keep over looking this. Never mind the fact that it’s stated that he could have gotten the advantage had he ”let go” and given himself to the force earlier in the fight.

he also needed anakin to make an arrogant mistake .

Has zero bearing on the fact he matched him for an extended period of time.

yoda is well aware anakin was skilled and powerful enough to kill dooku

Yes, Yoda is aware that Anakin killed someone he himself already slapped in AOTC.

Yoda simply played the cards dealt to him -

No. What you are unknowingly suggesting is that Yoda regards KFV as lesser.

also yodas strategic priority is to deal with sidious and don´t give him time to consolidate his new empire -

Ok? You are just waffling now.

after all sidious is in control of everything and has all the political power

Not seeing how this is relevant…

if he falls his entire new empire falls like a house of cards as well

Ok…

anakin may be powerful FU but he has zero political influence

Ok, so this is where you’re going… Yoda sends himself after Sidious because Sidious has more political power? Utterly laughable head canon argument with zero evidence.

putting someone slightly below sidious VS

knowing there is absolutely zero chance kenobi can even fight palpatine are two different things .

Nowhere is it said that Kenobi has zero chance of fighting him. You are completely overlooking the context. Moreover, contradicting yourself. Kenobi has zero chance against Sidious because he would get stomped per your own words, yet is sent after someone who is only slightly below Sidious? Lmao.

yoda already had a vision of anakin killing dooku and himself fighting sidious pretty much on equal terms

The season 6 vision has Anakin get clapped up by Sidious. He also doesn’t take the vision as fact. We see how uncertain he is in ROTS.

sidious himself as of TCW is not confident enough that he can beat yoda and tells dooku they need more time .

Yes, I’m well aware.

hence one of the reasons why sidiouses first reaction when yoda finally confronts him is to flee rather than fight

Sidious flees because he would rather not fight and waste time. He then overpowers Yoda in the same fight. So him fleeing is a vastly overstated metric.

whereas sidious never even considered obi-wan to be a threat to his power -

Again, not relevant. Obi Wan matched his most powerful apprentice for 8 minutes. All you’re achieving is saying you think KFV is sub Sidious.

sidious can always send his errant boy dooku to deal with kenobi .

Yes the same errand boy he sends after Anakin throughout the entire Clone Wars.

whereas obi-wan (based on his performances vs dooku) has zero chance .

Yeah, you are just head canoning now.

yoda also knows kenobi is more than familiar with anakins fighting style .

Yes, this is a relevant metric. But it has no bearing on the fact that Kenobi can keep up with Anakin’s speed, match his strength and also TK blasts.

anakin is also far less important (politically) .

Yeah, again I don’t care for the “Yoda went after Sidious because he’s a politician“ fan fiction. You have a habit of making head canon arguments without any sources.

it is you who is discrediting himself as seen below .

Nope. The more you claim that the Mustafar fight is PIS, the worse you look.

whereas kenobi would get straight up ragdolled or one shot by palpatine .

so yeah they would both lose to sidious

but it is a stomp gap decimation

vs extreme diff./ split decisionfight

There is no stomp gap. Mustafar Kenobi can give Sidious a fight, based on his scaling to Mustafar Vader and also giving OWK Vader a decent fight (and yes OWK Vader can be argued to beat Sidious).

First, let us remind ourselves of the context of this line. We must look at what is said prior:

Yoda: Destroy the Sith we must.

Obi Wan: Send me to kill the Emperor, I will not kill Anakin.

Yoda: To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not.

Obi Wan: He is like my brother I cannot do it.

Yoda: Twisted by the dark side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader.

Obi Wan: I don't know where The Emperor has sent him. I don't know where to look.

Yoda: Use your feelings, Obi-Wan and find him you will.

Yoda directly tells Obi Wan “to fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not”

Yet the preceding context is their ability to destroy the Sith, I.e. defeat them, not necessarily how well they would do in a given fight. They must be able to defeat them. Hence why Obi Wan says send me to killthe Emperor, to kill him, he must be able to defeat him

From this, it doesn’t necessarily mean Obi Wan will get stomped 10 times out of 10. What it means is that he can’t defeat the emperor. It says nothing as to the difficulty he would have when losing. (Although to be clear, he absolutely would lose every time, due to the force lightning)

To further back up this point, the canon junior novel for ROTS replaces Yoda’s word ‘fight’ with ‘destroy’:

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So the line in the movie is “to fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not”

Whereas the line in the junior novel is “to destroy this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not”

Unlike senior novels, junior novels don’t have to align 100% with the movie’s dialogue. A hyper literal reading of this dialogue would suggest a contradiction. But the preceeding context of Yoda saying they must destroy the Sith frames this as not the case. Yoda isn’t hyper literally saying “you can’t fight Sidious at all”, what he’s saying is that “you can’t defeat him”. So in this context, “fight” is just synonymous with “destroy”

The Fanhome Enclyoepdia backs this up, as Yoda is categorised in the same boat as Obi Wan as being among those who can’t beat him:

No Caption Provided

”Yoda had earned Obi Wan not powerful enough to face Palpatine. In the end, nor was Yoda”

Hyper literally, this wouldn’t make sense. As we know that Yoda did face Sidious, and did well. But the usage of the word ‘fight’ is used interchangeably with the movie wording of ‘face’. When read with the novel, ‘fight’, ‘face’ and ‘destroy’ mean the same thing.

“In the end, nor was Yoda” refers to his inability to defeat the emperor. Even if Yoda did well and could match the emperor, he can’t defeat him:

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Yoda can match him, but he cannot actually defeat him. The majority of canon sources actually have Sidious as slightly more powerful.

Per the official databank, he is stated to have overwhelmed a Yoda who is at the height of his power. (Post order 66 Sidious is significantly more powerful than pre 66. This can’t be stated enough):

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The dark lord’s superior power is affirmed repeatedly in canon sources (Stories of Jedi and Sith, 2017 Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Read-Along Story Book and CD, SW Annual 2015, Star Wars in 100 scenes, De Agostini Star Wars Encyclopdia: Yoda And Other Users of The Force, Star Wars Character Encyclopaedia, Star Wars: The Prequel Trilogy Stories, Ultimate Star Wars: New Edition, Star Wars: Made Easy, Fanhome Star Wars Encyclopedia: The End of the Clone Wars, Dark Side Pocket Expert and Star Wars Timelines)

So Yoda, like Obi Wan, can’t defeat the Emperor. Yoda thought he could, but he was proven wrong. They are both in the category of being unable to beat him. So this line of “strong enough to destroy this Lord Sidious, you are not” would also apply to Yoda. Although it is clear Yoda would do better than Kenobi would against the Emperor.

stop with this off guarded cope already

kenobi was always dookus victim and he was always depicted as such

he got straight up ragdolled by dooku in RoTS

So you have zero refutation? Nice. The idea that Dooku can ragdoll him without circumstances is nonsense. Mustafar Anakin couldn’t do that. OWK Vader didn’t even ragdoll him in the finale. Both of whom are more powerful than Dooku. Verbatim stated that he’s off guarded and passive barriers don’t exist in canon.

so deal with it and stop denying on screen canon feats . lol .

LOL, just as you’re denying Kenobi matching Anakin on screen?

based on all previous encounters and established power levels

it makes zero sense KFV is not able to ragdoll

sub dooku level opponent on mustafar

hence the stupid writing and PIS .

Yeah, utter nonsense. By this logic, I might as well say KFV beating Dooku is PIS, because outside of ROTS he’s never at that level + there’s more evidence to say he’s below that titan level.

dooku can always toy with kenobi as he did on multiple occasions

Nobody cares about TCW.

he has his number . period .

Incorrect.

if dooku can ragdoll him in 2v1

Contextual.

sorry but sub dooku fodder matching KFV out of the blue is PIS .

I actually like that you keep saying this. The more you claim that the most integral and intricately crafted duel in SW is PIS, the more anyone reading can see how terrible your arguments are.

correct , anakin has vastly more growth potential than kenobi

kenobi growing 2 tiers in 3 days is nonsense .

We see Kenobi reach a new power level in OWK and overpower Vader, who is more powerful than KFV. This happens in a matter of days. So there is nothing nonsense about it.

correct .

it is blatantly obvious on screen that he needed it

(or some sort of an advantage for that matter)

otherwise he would not be able to chopp anakins limbs off .

he also needed anakins arrogance to assist .

You keep repeating this as if it changes the fact that he matched him for 8 minutes without the high ground. Also, no… verbatim stated in junior novel that he could win without the high ground if he lets go.

it is you who is coping .

Nope. Your argument against Kenobi is that the Mustafar fight is PIS. That’s the ultimate cope right there.

(actually no it wouldn´t

remove plot armour and stupid writing and KFV murders this sub dooku fodder)

Uust as he failed to “murder” him for 8 minutes prior to the high ground.

this doesn´t even matter , rusty or not he is still sub dooku .

Rusty or not he beats Dooku.

correct ,

he always was and always will be sub dooku .

Nope. He slams Dooku, low diff.

giving OWK vader a tough fight means nothing ,

Wrong.

OWK vader is dooku/windu level and kenobi still loses to vader

OWK Vader is stated more powerful than KFV and shown to be. There’s no “Dooku level” here.

kenobi is a great duelist but he lacks force power - more powerful opponents always exploit this disadvantage

”Lacks force power” yet briefly matched KFV in a force clash. Lol.

kenobi needs a one time twinobi amp which sends him over the edge and allows him to beat vader .

Yes, he needs to let go and get oneness to beat Vader. This is after 2.5 mins of fighting. Meanwhile in ROTS, he fights Anakin and matched him for 8 minutes.

not really

but it´s not even important for the sake of this debate .

It’s not debatable. What they said > your opinion.

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@macattack1: Anakin is above Yoda and Sidious, affirmed by the feats present in the film and sources in both continuities, Kenobi is indeed a titan level character as he went blow for blow with the strongest of the titans for a long amount of time.

Anakin is obviously not hindered on Mustafar in Disney, he is about as hindered against Kenobi as the Emperor is against Yoda in the senate, or Anakin is against Dooku on Invisible hand, Mustafar Vader is just a angry Knightfall Vader whose mind is focused on what he believes to be the most natural and obvious decision, killing Obi-Wan.

your assessment of the Mustafar fight is not fair, Obi-Wan and Anakin went blow for blow as saber combatants, got an even saberlock after super energizing their blows and then equalled each other in the force.

Obi-Wan is clearly reasonably close to Anakin in term of physical strength as well, given this.

Obi-Wan and Anakin go blow for blow again, and they yet again get in an even saberlock with each other, showing their relativity in strength.

More or less, Obi-Wan and Anakin got in multiple equal saberlocks, even contest of strengths and even equalled each other in force power, Anakin holds advantage in these but it's pretty small and clearly not big enough to propely manifest as a decisive factor in any of the situations.

Obi-Wan's stats, skill and such are all titan level, he is weaker than them but would be a very close match with all of them except maybe the Emperor due to force lightning, but that does not change the fact.

On the virtue of matching strength and power multiple times with the strongest titan, being stated to be more skillfull than arguably the most skillfull titan (alongside Yoda), having a 8 minute long match with the strongest titan...Obi-Wan Kenobi is indeed a ROTS Titan beyond a shadow of a doubt.

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#44 frozen  Moderator

@macattack1:

Besides, he only did as well against Anakin as he did due to familiarity with his style and back peddling until Anakin did something stupid, so it’s not like Kenobi is on par with Anakin anyway, even IF we accept Anakin as unhindered during it.

Familiarity doesn’t change the fact that he goes near equal in their strength contests and briefly matches him in a force clash. For Kenobi’s familiarity to pay off, he has to be close in strength and power.

The idea of Anakin being hindered is cope in both continuities. Canon has made it even more clear. And LOL at the attempts to use the Dooku fight to low ball Kenobi. Dark_globe coming in with peak cope once again.

Vader probs takes it. Hard to see him duel Yoda though.

Yeah it’s undeniable that Disney has made it very clear.

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The idea of Anakin being hindered is cope in both continuities. Canon has made it even more clear. And LOL at the attempts to use the Dooku fight to low ball Kenobi. Dark_globe coming in with peak cope once again.

Vader probs takes it. Hard to see him duel Yoda though.

There's a good amount of evidence in Legends, but as far as Canon goes it's irrefutable at this point

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Eredin12

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#47  Edited By Eredin12

@redsithdisciple: Tbh even in Legends there are multiple statements that he was not weaker raw power-wise, but rather only hindered mentally/ how smart he fought, but yeah in canon there is just none.

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#48  Edited By RedSithDisciple

@eredin12: Yeah the mental hinderance is what I was moreso referring to

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