ROTS Windu vs Vader (Kenobi)

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Sav0

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The fight takes place on the same location where Obi-Wan fought Vader from the episode 6 of the show.

ROTS Windu vs Vader from Kenobi

Who will win this fight?

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Masma94

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I think Windu would win, not only he's one of the few able of matching Yoda and Darth Sidious as a duellist but his Vaapaad gives him an advantage against most dark side users, even Sidious.

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IDragonov

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Mace windu in a hard fought battle almost every time, his vapaad and shatter point abilities are the perfect counter for a dark side user.

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alextheboss

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Is vaapad being a counter to dark side users even canon anymore? Vader wins due to being superior to ROTS Anakin who is comparable to Windu.

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SamJackson

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Windu

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Chewbacca

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@eredin12 said:

Vader, he is above ROTS Anakin who was at least comparable to Windu.

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Chewbacca

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Vader can engulf Mace with the force unlike his ROTS version 10 years earlier, in the revenge of the Sith novel, it describes the fight between Palpatine and Mace where he actually fought for his life and was very close to losing the battle. So Mace Windu is kind of overrated based on that, and other sources from other Star Wars novels like Yoda Dark Rendezvous and Shatterpoint etc.

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SonOfDarkness

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Vader

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deactivated-644c7202b7524

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Flashpoint98

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Vader

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nassergrant19

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@eredin12 said:

Vader, he is above ROTS Anakin who was at least comparable to Windu.

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Sav0

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#13  Edited By Sav0
@eredin12 said:

Vader, he is above ROTS Anakin who was at least comparable to Windu.

No he is not. Windu is Yoda/Sidious tier. ROTS Anakin isn't.

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Darkvanderling

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Vader crushes Windu with his superior force power. Windu is probably the better duelist, but that’s it. In the canon, Anakin couldn’t unlock his full potential due to his mental block and conflict as per Lords of the Sith novel. In Legends, it was due to the fact he got burnt and the cybernetics hindered his power. Either ways, he’s beyond Windu in terms of the Force.

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macattack1

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Windu. He is Sidious level, Vader isn’t by quite a way

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ComicGirl21

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#16  Edited By ComicGirl21

Mace beats Vader, he is basically a perfect counter to him in all aspects.

1. He is a physical powerhouse in his prime especially with augmentation, and Vader relies on his immense strength a lot in his duels.

2. His vapaad especially combined with shatterpoint gives him an advantage when fighting dark side users. If it's effective even against Sidious, Vader will be hard pressed as well.

3. He is strong enough in the force to not be overwhelmed by Vader, so the duel basically comes down to sabers, where he excells. He is a much faster and more agile duelist then post-suit Vader.

4. His TK speciality in force crush is very dangerous to Vader. One slip and he'll easily damage Vader's breathing device, basically ending the fight.

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Darkvanderling

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#17  Edited By Darkvanderling

@macattack1: Windu wasn’t Sidious level lol. According to ROTS novel, Palpatine wanted to play the victim, so that Anakin would turn to the dark side. Just saying, Palpatine was on par with Yoda and the latter would one shot Windu. Mace Windu’s main skillset is his dueling ability. He’s one of those few Jedi who could use the dark side via Vaapad without being succumbed. Also, shatter point isn’t going to help him beat Vader either.

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Darkvanderling

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#18  Edited By Darkvanderling

Also the new canon kinda suggest Vader is closer to Sidious’ power and could beat him if he didn’t have the mental block and wasn’t very conflicted. The Kyber crystal showed a scenario if Anakin switched to the light side, then he could’ve beaten Palpatine because he isn’t conflicted.

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macattack1

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#19  Edited By macattack1

@darkvanderling: ROTS novel is legends. In canon there is no indication that Windus defeat of Sidious wasn’t legitimate.

Although you also said Yoda would one shot Windu so I guess you’re just trolling

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Masma94

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Force crush is indeed something that Mace knows and may be more than willing to use against Vader.

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Darkvanderling

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#21  Edited By Darkvanderling

@macattack1: How is it trolling? Yoda does one shot Windu. If you think Windu is Yoda tier then that’s pretty stupid. Windu is nowhere close to Yoda in the Force. I’m not saying Windu isn’t a powerful Force user, but he gets rekt by Yoda. Even if you go by canon, in the film, it’s crystal clear Palpatine threw the fight in order for Anakin to turn to the dark side. The ROTS novel explains this in detail, even though like you’ve said it’s part of Legends. Windu also couldn’t handle Palpatine’s force lightning for much time. His raw power was way beyond Mace. Him being ROTS Sidious tier is illogical. I could agree Windu being Yoda/Sidious tier in terms of lightsaber skills, but in terms of sheer Force power, he isn’t anywhere close.

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Sav0

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#22  Edited By Sav0
@darkvanderling said:

@macattack1: Windu wasn’t Sidious level lol. According to ROTS novel, Palpatine wanted to play the victim, so that Anakin would turn to the dark side. Just saying, Palpatine was on par with Yoda and the latter would one shot Windu. Mace Windu’s main skillset is his dueling ability. He’s one of those few Jedi who could use the dark side via Vaapad without being succumbed. Also, shatter point isn’t going to help him beat Vader either.

And George Lucas said that Windu did defeat Palpatine, so Windu is on Sidious level.

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Slash03

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Windu

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macattack1

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@darkvanderling: in canon he is, he legitimately beat Sidious. Saying otherwise is either legends (which is completely irrelevant here) or headcanon. Yoda didn’t even one shot Dooku so to think he could one shot Windu is ridiculous.

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deactivated-644c7202b7524

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Windu.

Vader as Sidious tier is an informed attribute.

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Sav0

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#27  Edited By Sav0
@eredin12 said:
@sav0 said:
@eredin12 said:

Vader, he is above ROTS Anakin who was at least comparable to Windu.

No he is not. Windu is Yoda/Sidious tier. ROTS Anakin isn't.

He is, check this:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/darth-vader-is-more-powerful-than-yoda-in-the-forc-2256204/

Movies don't show it. He didn't stomp Obi Wan on Mustafar, did he? In fact both of them were equal in the force on Mustafar.

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shroudofsorrow

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@sav0: Not the way it works.

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Besides, Lucas personally edited and approved of the RotS novelization, which was based on his own story and screenplay. No reason at all to disregard its contents.

Also, Lucas saying Mace won isn't even really a contradiction. He did win...because Palpatine let him.

OT: I would say its close, but probably Mace. I know in Disney Canon Vader is supposed to be superior to what he was in Revenge of the Sith, but then the question is where do we place Mace in relation to RotS Anakin? If we assume Mace is also better, than logically he and Vader should be comparable.

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Knightbat

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Windu

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dark_globe

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#30  Edited By dark_globe

windu dies .

something tells me we will yet see this fight in live action TV .
they can come up with some way windu survived his fall and
since disney is milking the nostalgia card as hard as they can
they can make this fight happen if they really want to .
they already resurrected maul who was sliced in half and fall down the shaft ,
no reason they could not do it with mace who technically only lost one hand on screen
which is nothing in SW universe .
and if they do it the only logicall outcome of the fight would be
that vader will be victorious since they can´t kill him due to plot .

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Sav0

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@sav0: Not the way it works.

Besides, Lucas personally edited and approved of the RotS novelization, which was based on his own story and screenplay. No reason at all to disregard its contents.

Also, Lucas saying Mace won isn't even really a contradiction. He did win...because Palpatine let him.

OT: I would say its close, but probably Mace. I know in Disney Canon Vader is supposed to be superior to what he was in Revenge of the Sith, but then the question is where do we place Mace in relation to RotS Anakin? If we assume Mace is also better, than logically he and Vader should be comparable.

Nope. Canonically everything suggests that Windu legitimately defeated Palpatine. There was no "letting him win" part. Anakin doesn't even arrive yet by the time Windu knocks his lightsaber out. Palpatine was bested and he lost the fight.

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Sav0

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windu dies .

something tells me we will yet see this fight in live action TV .

they can come up with some way windu survived his fall and

since disney is milking the nostalgia card as hard as they can

they can make this fight happen if they really want to .

they already resurrected maul who was sliced in half and fall down the shaft ,

no reason they could not do it with mace who technically only lost one hand on screen

which is nothing in SW universe .

and if they do it the only logicall outcome of the fight would be

that vader will be victorious since they can´t kill him due to plot .

I don't think they would bring Windu back just to kill him off immediately.

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dark_globe

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@sav0 said:

I don't think they would bring Windu back just to kill him off immediately.

they will not kill him immediately , there would be some build up in number of episodes
to the fight of this magnitude for sure .

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nfactor1995

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Windu wins. Can't see a universe where Kenobi ever surpasses Windu (and Kenobi soundly defeated this Vader), and competing with or beating Sidious (depending on how you interpret their fight) is better than anything we've seen Vader do.

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Thanos524

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People who see Obi Wan's defeat of Vader as legitimate power scaling sadly miss the beauty of the series.

Vader handicapped himself against Obi Wan, per usual, in a "this is the end battle". Vader's attitude and emotions were totally different the second round. And there was so much communicated when Anakin said..."just as I will destroy you!" You know what he sounded like when he said that? A petulant whiny child.

Anakin at this point in his career as Vader is still a pathetic man. He simply cannot beat Obi Wan, even if he was as powerful as his mortis self. There's too much childish emotion. Vader handicaps himself far too much.

And at this point, he's beyond Windu in everything but saber skill. The duel probably goes similarly to how the first half of his duel with Obi Wan. The two probably trade saber strikes, Windu probably lands some strikes on Vader's armor, proving the superior swordsman. The force probably comes into play, and Vader gains a physical upper hand, which Windu counters. At that point the duel goes back and forth until Vader gets an opening for a force choke, and stabs him.

Windu is outclassed in the force and survives until Vader calls upon force abilities.

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nassergrant19

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#36  Edited By nassergrant19

Windu dies, Suited Vader is far more powerful than KFV who was above Windu.

The Prime Kenobi that beat Vader was simply far beyond Windu and more powerful than this version of Suited Vader.

Vader destroys Mace 9/10

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Darkvanderling

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#39  Edited By Darkvanderling

Gallery Canon Vader being close to Sidious tier isn’t an uninformed opinion and I never claimed he is Sidious tier, but close to that level. If you’ve read Darth Vader(2017) run, when Anakin is trying to create a lightsaber as a Sith, the Kyber crystal shows a scenario that if he switched back to the light side and refused Palpatine, he could’ve beaten him solidly and we also see him going back to Obi-Wan. Thing is that Anakin as Vader had too much self hatred to return to the light side, hence the Kyber crystal became red and he was able to create his red lightsaber. Ever since Anakin became Vader, he had mental blocks and was a depressed and conflicted individual. This is also stated in the canon Lords of the Sith novel. Palpatine claimed Anakin could’ve achieved his full potential if it wasn’t for his mental block. Regardless, whether it’s canon or legends, he destroys Mace Windu. Also, ROTJ Vader>KFV Anakin and KFV Anakin>=ROTS Yoda. Also, people misrepresent KFV Anakin as full potential Anakin. Anakin never achieved his potential at all. If we go by new canon logic, even if Anakin wasn’t a cyborg as a Sith Lord, he still wouldn’t have achieved his full potential. Let me reiterate, Anakin as a dark side Force user lost everything. He was a broken man. He had a mental block and lack of confidence to achieve his full potential. All he had was self hatred for himself. But he did grow stronger than his KFV version by the time of ROTJ. It’s just he didn’t become Mortis arc Anakin, which is basically what Full potential Anakin would’ve been.

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wholewheat

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#40  Edited By wholewheat

windu loses this. recent canon evidence has been created suggesting that sidious threw.

but we don't even need that to see what happens on screen.

partially because of sidious's force scream, sidious cuts down agen kolar and tiin before mace can react while mace was in striking range,. this shows their difference in speed and force power. even with kit fisto, who is >general grievous, helping him, kit gets immediately cut down. mace somehow cannot capitalize on these moments where palpatine is slaying his allies even while he's in striking range.

palpatine then draws out the fight until anakin arrives. after using lightning and dropping his mask, making it seem like he's getting burnt, he pretends to be out of lightning. so we all agree he's feigning weakness here, there's no dispute. if mace was truly on his level and on his speed tier, he would not allow mace to wind up a strike against him that could kill him without anakin's intervention. he wouldn't take that chance to allow mace to almost strike him. but since he's more powerful and faster than mace, he knows he can react to anakin not stopping mace and kill them both. he in fact would never allow mace and anakin to both be there to potentially kill him if he didn't think he could kill them both

btw, mace died to just a few seconds of lightning compared to what rotj luke and vader tanked

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Darkvanderling

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#41  Edited By Darkvanderling

@eredin12: In Mustafar, Vader was conflicted in both Legends and the new canon. That’s why he lost against Obi-Wan. That’s why he again lost against Obi-Wan in the TV series. I don’t understand why people think Kenobi is above a character who’s basically the Force in human body. Even if Anakin didn’t achieve his potential, his strength in the Force is beyond Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan only beat Anakin due to plot induced stupidity and the fact Anakin always was conflicted against Obi-Wan because he was his master. Disney canon is usually known for giving Vader good feats, but they did a disservice to the character by making Obi-Wan beat him in the TV series. It’s so stupid and your typical “Good guy should always beat the bad guy” gibberish. It also makes Obi-Wan as bad as Rey in terms of being a Gary Stu. I like the character, but Obi-Wan in terms of hierarchy of power should never even be above Mace Windu, yet he is now. I don’t mind Obi-Wan being above Windu, but I don’t buy him being above Vader. Also, if you think about it, Kylo Ren/Ben Solo and Rey should also be way above Obi-Wan in the hierarchy, but featwise they aren’t. Going by statements and their implied power, Ben Solo and Rey should also be above ROTJ Vader, but they aren’t. The sequel trilogy is such a mess, not only in terms of quality, but also in terms of power. The only thing Disney did right was make Vader more powerful, but they proceeded to shit on the character by making Obi-Wan beat him via Gary Stu power up and making Anakin mentally chicken out against his master.

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Sav0

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#42  Edited By Sav0

@wholewheat:

"windu loses this. recent canon evidence has been created suggesting that sidious threw.

but we don't even need that to see what happens on screen."

Yes we do need to see that "evidence". So show it up. If you watched the movies there is nothing that suggests that Palpatine threw the fight. Anakin doesn't arrive until Palps has already been beaten. And he couldn't know that Anakin would come right at that point. Everything in canon shows that Windu did beat Palpatine, so stop lowballing Windu and acknowledge that Palpatine have been bested.

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KingJedi

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Vader wins by statements and feats.

He beats Windu in a tough fight

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Lord_Tenebrous

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In live-action continuity, Darth Vader's advantage over Obi-Wan Kenobi was (and always has been) slight. Close enough for the lesser foe to come out on top, in fact. Mace Windu, by contrast, went toe-to-toe with Lord Vader's master, the Emperor himself, and won. An opponent far beyond the likes Obi-Wan Kenobi, as illustrated by the swift slaughter of Master Kenobi's peers from the High Council, Masters Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto. If Lord Vader is hardly beyond Master Kenobi, how can he hope to stand against the legendary might of Master Windu? The Sith Lord has no more chance than if he were to cross swords with Master Yoda, or Darth Sidious.

Mace Windu humbles another slave of the darkness.

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Lord_Tenebrous

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#45  Edited By Lord_Tenebrous
@darkvanderling said:

@macattack1: Windu wasn’t Sidious level lol. According to ROTS novel, Palpatine wanted to play the victim, so that Anakin would turn to the dark side.

@darkvanderling said:

The ROTS novel explains this in detail, even though like you’ve said it’s part of Legends. Windu also couldn’t handle Palpatine’s force lightning for much time. His raw power was way beyond Mace. Him being ROTS Sidious tier is illogical. I could agree Windu being Yoda/Sidious tier in terms of lightsaber skills, but in terms of sheer Force power, he isn’t anywhere close.

Well, as it happens, such assertions are mistaken -- the Revenge of the Sith senior novelization, created by Matthew Stover, portrays Mace Windu as a most capable match for Darth Sidious. Mace favours the Vaapad style in this encounter, fully immersing himself in its flow in order to combat the ultimate adversary; it takes time to "get into the groove," so to speak, but Mace survives the duel long enough to get his engine going. Once Mace is settled in his style, the fight becomes a perfect stalemate, broken only by Mace's additional skills:

Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.

Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.

Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side. Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master. This was Vaapad's ultimate test.

-

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind -- the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed -- could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them -- but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose.

-

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center--

And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But--

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source. Feeling for its shatterpoint. He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now--

And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead. The Chosen One was here.

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.

One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below. Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."

With Vaapad, Master Windu forces Lord Sidious into a deadlock, for the Jedi simply becomes a conduit for the Sith's raging strength. Master Windu's wider sensitivity to the Force prompts him to draw the fight out onto terrain disadvantageous for Emperor Palpatine, and this leads to the Dark Lord's disarming.

In short: Darth Sidious is deadly enough to convince Mace that exploring the limits of Vaapad is appropriate for the situation. Darth Sidious is not deadly enough to kill Mace before the Jedi can transition to that state of being, and once fully in Vaapad, Mace at worst perfectly stalemates Sidious, or has him on the back foot (the latter of which Anakin Skywalker observes). The victory itself was more or less circumstantial, dependent on the finer details of where and when exactly this battle took place -- combat between relative peers often comes down to such minor aspects.

Irrespective of how well Mace Windu performed in the flow of Vaapad, the novelization credits him with peerless lightsaber mastery; Master Windu is more adept with a lightsaber than Darth Sidious, Anakin Skywalker, or Master Yoda:

This is the moment that defines Mace Windu.

Not his countless victories in battle, nor the numberless battles his diplomacy has avoided. Not his penetrating intellect, or his talents with the Force, or his unmatched skills with the lightsaber. Not his dedication to the Jedi Order, or his devotion to the Republic that he serves.

Mace Windu's unique array of abilities make him exceptional even among the highest ranks of Jedi and Sith fighters. When Mace employs his signature Vaapad, the only likely physical match to that assault would be Anakin Skywalker, as the author mused -- a fight between the two would be quite even, with Skywalker's greater connection to the Force possibly providing an edge:

Interviewer: Um, going back to Star Wars -- you wrote Shatterpoint, and of course [the Revenge of the Sith senior novelization] -- a fan sort of fiction fight scene I've always wanted to see was Mace vs Anakin. In your head, who do you think would win? Has George ever talked about anything like that? If Anakin and Mace had fought? I know with Vaapad, it's, you know it's--Anakin I feel like would have to be in the dark side in order to be able to, um... I feel like if he was in the dark side Mace would then beat him much easier, but if he was a Jedi fighting Mace, I feel like it would be more difficult for Mace Windu -- but I wanna know what you think, you wrote them.

Matthew Stover: Well, um, it is canonical that Anakin has transhuman reflexes; I mean, the only human to ever finish a podrace, and he was what? Eight? And, he is popularly considered the greatest fighter pilot in the galaxy -- Obi-Wan says so in uh, in uh, I think A New Hope. Um, so Anakin, I think, would have a definite edge. Um, and his sort of innate aggressiveness, uh, would fairly well counter Mace's. Y'know that's kinda the key to, the key to Mace's fighting style is his, his uh, his kind of overwhelming ability to attack, um, aggressively from, from many directions at once, and, uh, if anyone was, would really be capable of matching that hand-to-hand, it's probably Anakin. Um, I'm not sure, I'm not sure that I would give Anakin an edge over Mace, but I'm also, I think it would be a very even fight. Different styles.

Interviewer: That's insane.

Matthew Stover: Well, Anakin's Force powers are operating at a higher level than Mace's. Mace's are more precise, but Anakin is just, he's just tremendously powerful.

As portrayed in the novelization, blade-to-blade, Mace Windu is practically nonpareil -- be it with the power of Vaapad, or his skill as a swordsman.

You can see above how highly the novelization's author, Matthew Stover, holds Mace Windu as a combatant. Stover also argues against the notion that Emperor Palpatine threw the fight, contending that it would undermine the weight of Anakin Skywalker's betrayal:

Interviewer: Um, when it came to Mace fighting Palpatine -- there are so many different answers. Y'know, in interviews George has said, "Okay, yeah, Mace fairly beat Palpatine", in your novel you say Mace beat Palpatine, I asked Ian McDiarmid once at a signing, like, "did Mace actually beat him, or did Palpatine just fake it so that Anakin could get there, and he could manipulate him?", and he's like, "Oh, Palpatine faked it" -- but of course he would say that. I wanna know what your insight is, um, as, I always thought Palpatine, y'know, faked that loss -- it's kind of how it, it was portrayed to me in the film. But, of course, I'd love to know what you think.

Matthew Stover: Well, I think that if Palpatine had faked his loss to Mace, there would be no reason in the plot for Anakin to be there, right? You bring Anakin in because he's, he is -- as, as Mace realizes -- he's the, the pivotal--

Interviewer: Shatterpoint.

Matthew Stover: The pivotal--right, the shatterpoint of the war, and that, that he is, he is, it's, it's Anakin's choice that kills Mace -- not Palpatine's skill. Right? And, uh, so, if uh, if Palpatine is faking, then, eh, it's kind of a con game -- it loses some of its force. It loses its moral force as an event.

It is evident, then, that the novelization does not portray Mace Windu as far inferior to Darth Sidious, nor would it depict a fake fight.

As for the lightning exchange, the way Matthew Stover envisioned it, through Vaapad Master Windu was able to handle the Emperor's power as efficiently as before:

Palpatine lifted his head.

His eyes smoked with hate.

“Fool,” he said.

He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor’s wings, his hands hooking into talons.

“Fool!” His voice was a shout of thunder. “Do you think the fear you feel is mine?”

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine’s hands, and Mace didn’t have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.

Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

The issue then became that in this situation, Darth Sidious turned Mace Windu's advantage around, using the pain as a power boost:

Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that poured from his hands only intensified.

He fed the power with his pain.

Mace was already at his limit reflecting the Emperor's normal full power, so this growing amplification pushes past that limit and overwhelms the Jedi:

“Anakin!” Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. “Anakin, help me! This is your chance!”

He felt Anakin’s leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind--

And Palpatine was not afraid.

Mace could feel it: he wasn’t worried at all.

“Destroy this traitor,” the Chancellor said, his voice raised over the howl of writhing energy that joined his hands to Mace’s blade. “This was never an arrest. It’s an assassination!”

That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine’s shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith.

The shatterpoint of the dark side itself.

Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker...

Now Anakin was at Mace’s shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace’s blade back toward the Korun Master’s face.

Palpatine’s eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. “He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him.”

“You’re the chosen one, Anakin,” Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. “Take him. It’s your destiny.”

However, just as it exhausts Mace to stave off this new level of strength for as long as he does, maintaining this heightened energy output utterly exhausts the Emperor, who gives out before victory can be achieved:

Skywalker echoed him faintly. “Destiny...”

“Help me! I can’t hold on any longer!” The yellow glare from Palpatine’s eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. “He is killing me, Anakin--! Please, Anaaahhh--”

Mace’s blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. “Anakin, he’s too strong for me--”

“Ahhh--” Palpatine’s roar above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair.

The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge.

To reiterate: Matthew Stover doesn't believe that Emperor Palpatine was faking his defeat here. And, outside of Vaapad, Mace Windu is able to survive, negate, and bounce back from a blast of the Emperor's power:

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.

Demonstrating that with or without the power of Vaapad, Mace Windu isn't going to be hand-waved by Darth Sidious when non-physical powers are brought to bear. This is also an instance of the Emperor attempting to kill Master Windu mid-fight, further cutting against the concept of Palpatine deliberately prolonging the conflict for Anakin Skywalker's sake in the novelization.

Regarding the Force, when immersed in Vaapad, Mace Windu is still a match for the Emperor. Master Windu is only on the losing end when Darth Sidious exploits the pain being inflicted upon his person to grow even stronger. Furthermore, the Emperor could not overwhelm Master Windu before exhausting himself, so it's but a temporary advantage.

Put simply, Matthew Stover depicts Mace Windu as Emperor Palpatine's match through and through, and doesn't subscribe to the idea of the fight having been thrown.

@darkvanderling said:

in the film, it’s crystal clear Palpatine threw the fight in order for Anakin to turn to the dark side.

@shroudofsorrow said:

Also, Lucas saying Mace won isn't even really a contradiction. He did win...because Palpatine let him.

If the Emperor didn't lose, Mace Windu didn't win. Lucas stating that Windu overpowered Palpatine means that the Emperor was overpowered -- if the advantage was willingly granted, no one was actually overpowered.

It is perfectly fine if one comes away believing that Darth Sidious, the master manipulator, played the Jedi Council to spur Anakin Skywalker into action -- it's a movie, and an entertaining one. We all have our interpretations. I can see where you're coming from.

The fact remains, though, that Emperor Palpatine throwing the fight was not George Lucas' intent. To circle back to the quote Shroud is referencing, in addition to Lucas plainly declaring that Mace Windu overpowered Darth Sidious, we've the rest of the sentence:

"Okay well this sequence, uh, always started out with Mace, uh, overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand, but this part where he, he pretends to lose his power, and be weak, was something that I added later, cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see that he's, now it's very clear that he, he wants him to go on trial, so he can pump him for information on how to get these powers."

~ Revenge of the Sith - Archival Cast/Crew Commentary

In the ensuing lightning exchange, Darth Sidious is attempting to destroy Mace Windu. Lethal intent. Not holding back. After which, Sidious elects to exaggerate his weakness for Anakin Skywalker's benefit. Unlike in the novelization, Mace doesn't simply withstand the Emperor's surprise lightning barrage -- Mace objectively overpowers it:

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In the novelization, Mace's use of Vaapad causes the lightning to reflect back upon the Emperor from the get-go. In Lucas' film, Emperor Palpatine is being electrocuted because Mace is progressively shoving the lightning into his face as the Jedi Master pushes forward and forward. Lucas notes that the Emperor is trying -- and utterly failing -- to kill Mace, and Visual Effects Supervisor John Knoll mentions how the sheer strain of this attempt causes Palpatine's infamous physical transformation:

"You know these close-up shots where Palpatine is getting the Force lightning reflected back, and he's getting zapped, and the, the strain of, of all this exertion, its transforming him into the Emperor that we see later from Return of the Jedi..."

~ Revenge of the Sith - Archival Cast/Crew Commentary

That's how the scene was supposed to have been readjusted, after all; Emperor Palpatine is already losing, and capitalizes on this by exaggerating his weakness:

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~ The Making of Revenge of the Sith

Lucas' final shooting script documents an instance of the Emperor attempting to slay Mace Windu during their fight, and concludes with Windu forcing Palpatine's disarming:

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Rather clear-cut. Consistent, too, with Lucas' earlier scripts:

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In addition, consistent with Lucas' explicit statements on the matter (setting aside that which we have already gone over), in that Mace Windu was very much supposed to be on par with Master Yoda and the Emperor:

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~ The Making of Revenge of the Sith

The prequel trilogy's senior stunt coordinator/choreographer, Nick Gillard, backed up Lucas on this:

"There’s up to [nine] levels. Yoda is [a nine], Mace Windu is [a nine], Obi is [an eight], but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.” Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. “I’ve got him down as a [nine] or [ten], which doesn’t really exist,” says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps.

https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/star-wars-den-of-geek-goes-jedi-training-with-nick-gillard/

"Sidious is a level nine. In this film, Obi is eight -- he's moved up -- Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious."

~ Nick Gillard, The Making of Revenge of the Sith

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~ Nick Gillard, The Lightsaber Collection

During Episode II production, in fact, Gillard maintained that Mace Windu's combat prowess was second only to that of Master Yoda:

"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda. If he gets within range, there's no question... you're dead."

~ Nick Gillard

I can't say I disagree there.

All in all, the dark side's deadliest proved no match for the light side's finest. Both Mace Windu and Yoda overmatched the Emperor -- the nature of each duel was different, of course, as the combatants differ in style and such, prompting different approaches to better suit different duelists.

"There was a great deal of work put in these sword fights, 'cause there are so many of 'em -- we had to make each one individual. Each one had its own personality, that reflected the two opponents and their skills, and how they would adjust. Y'know the sword fights between Palpatine and Mace is different from the one between the Emperor and Yoda, even though we wanted to have, sort of similarities, but make them different enough to where they don't get incredibly repetitious."

~ George Lucas, Revenge of the Sith's Archival Cast/Crew Commentary

@shroudofsorrow said:

@sav0: Not the way it works.

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Besides, Lucas personally edited and approved of the RotS novelization, which was based on his own story and screenplay. No reason at all to disregard its contents.

Current storytelling isn't actually bound by the intent of any given writer/creator, old or new, and so this applies to everyone -- not just George Lucas. Lucasfilm's current storytelling is based on personal interpretations of existing material, or desired interpretations, as opposed to attempting to keep to what the films and such were actually meant to entail. That quote covers the realm of the technical; no, a creator's statements aren't considered "canon", part of official continuity. Nothing of that nature is, freeing the Storygroup of responsibility.

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This does not have any bearing on an outsider's ability to rationally examine the behind-the-scenes material surrounding a story, and thereby determine what the work was meant to portray. What the correct interpretation is.

To hold to the tweets you put forth would necessitate completely forsaking all non-storytelling material. If interviews with those behind Obi-Wan Kenobi came out, offering juicy insight into hotly-contested aspects of the Darth Vader-Obi-Wan Kenobi battle, they would be meaningless for our purposes, carrying zero authority.

Such an approach would be irrational. Now, you could argue that George Lucas' intent for Mace Windu vs Darth Sidious isn't valid in the context of" Disney Canon", for they are not beholden to his intent in the slightest, nor do they care for it -- it could not be used to interept modern canon's general interpretation of the duel. That would be correct. When discussing the creation itself, on the other hand, the creator's word is without peer in authority.

Concerning the novelization -- indeed, it's not canon either:

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Even so, Matthew Stover's novel adaptation of George Lucas' film is really only relevant when discussing the old legends expanded universe -- it's not a very accurate window into Lucas' intent. You mention -- and Stover boasts -- that it was edited and approved by Lucas. However, for Lucas to do such a thing would not mean the material is in alignment with his own perspective -- a common misconception even regarding the wider EU.

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To conclude, as Stover does, that this equates to an ideological endorsement by Lucas, would be unfounded speculation by itself. Let alone when almost every time Lucas speaks about Revenge of the Sith, his take is contrary to what can be read in the novelization.

You mention that Stover "based" the novel off of Lucas' story/screenplay. He was given the script as a foundation, then created his own version, operating from the point of view that Lucas' story was simply a film adaptation of his story:

"When I was originally hired, to, uh, to do the book, um, what they gave me was, uh, the shooting script -- the final shooting script of, uh, the movie, and that's what I was working from; kind of like an outline."

~ Matthew Stover

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~ Star Wars Insider

One might mention that Stover was allowed a single meeting with Lucas to discuss the book (much like the developers of The Force Unleashed). In this meeting, Lucas gave Stover license to do whatever he wanted in the novel, so long as it was good, and kept to the general plot:

Interviewer: Matthew, what I find particularly interesting about your novel, is how you tied together the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy. How much license did Mr. Lucas give you to work with the expanded universe material?

Matthew Stover: I asked him how much I could change, how much of his dialogue I had to use, and he said that as long as I didn't change the action, I didn't change the sense of the scene, "then change whatever you want, just make it good."

https://youtu.be/Esf59wk1yFQ

Interviewer: Um, how much insight did you have with like, was George feeding you those, those ideas, or did you have free reign to just, add to all those scenes?

Matthew Stover: I had a certain amount of free reign, um, his, his explicit instructions, uh, to me, were to not do anything that violated, uh, the story. Right, the story as presented in the film. But beyond that, he said, uh, y'know, "do whatever you want, just make it good." And I tried to do that.

https://youtu.be/EkAKTCMbTlI

It wasn't intended to be something you could interpret the film through. It wasn't written to keep in alignment with the lesser details of the story, like the nitty gritty of each battle, for that is where Stover was permitted to take his own route. And of course, every single fight in Stover's novelization is depicted very differently than in Lucas' film -- intentionally so. Lucas gave Stover such creative licence.

Due to Stover's often-flaunted self-advertisement, this novel tends to be rather oversold when it comes to clarifying what went down in the films. In truth, we ought not use it in place of actual film material, unless we're dealing with the old legends EU -- the continuity Stover designed it to accommodate.

@darkvanderling said:

@macattack1: How is it trolling? Yoda does one shot Windu. If you think Windu is Yoda tier then that’s pretty stupid. Windu is nowhere close to Yoda in the Force. I’m not saying Windu isn’t a powerful Force user, but he gets rekt by Yoda. Even if you go by canon, in the film, it’s crystal clear Palpatine threw the fight in order for Anakin to turn to the dark side.

I'd have to say that you're somewhat mistaken there in canon continuity EU, where writers consistently depict Mace Windu as within the same range as the likes of Master Yoda or the Emperor -- though, granted, many of the aforementioned sources are supplementary and insignificant in nature. Nevertheless, there's a theme of sorts in play here, and one quite favourable too Mace Windu.

This canon source, for instance, asserts that Mace Windu is the Jedi High Council's greatest combatant:

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~ Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know, Updated & Expanded

And we've this one, contending that Mace Windu is the Jedi Order's greatest swordsman:

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~ Star Wars: The Lightsaber Collection

This book is written from an in-universe perspective -- Emperor Palpatine's point of view -- and while describing the powerful effects of Force Lightning, Darth Sidious lies to the readers by claiming he's made even the strongest Jedi Masters beg for mercy. The example provided for said peerless Jedi Master, is Mace Windu rather than Yoda:

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~ Secrets of the Sith

Or even here, where we see Mace Windu repeatedly being referred to as the Jedi Order's most powerful warrior and Force wielder, in addition to being the most revered fighter of said Order:

Behind the chancellor, a Republic Cruiser emerged from below the window line, hovering upwards until its ion drives came alive in a burst, powering the ship into the sky. "Master Windu. He is perhaps the Order's greatest warrior, most powerful Force adept."

...

"What was that?" Anakin twisted the knob again, static interrupting the signal and causing lines to jab in and out of Mace's hologram. Over his shoulder, Mill laughed, and Anakin turned to shoot her a be quiet glance -- not out of scolding, but to keep up appearances. But they locked eyes, and her grin become infectious, so much so that he put his gloved hand over his mouth to prevent his near-laugh from transmitting across the galaxy to the Jedi Order's most revered fighter.

Because even though Anakin excelled at improvising under duress, that applied only to combat situations. In this case, his actions came off as no more than a childhood prank on the Jedi's most powerful warrior. Which was pretty fun in itself.

~ Star Wars: Brotherhood

Mace Windu being stronger than Yoda? A little too far for me, but not for those writers, evidently. The below claims are much more appropriate: Mace Windu being, in reputation and reality, second only to Master Yoda among the Jedi, and overall possessing virtually unparalleled Force and lightsaber mastery:

"Jedi Master Mace Windu is disciplined, steadfast, and unwavering in his commitment to the Jedi Order. He is second only to Master Yoda in lightsaber prowess, wisdom, and respect among his peers. While the Force is strong with him, Mace is suspicious of anyone he perceives to be a threat to the Jedi teachings and traditions he holds sacrosanct."

~ The Star Wars Book

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~ Ultimate Star Wars

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~ Star Wars: Galactic Atlas

It follows, then, that we've plenty of sources alleging that Anakin Skywalker's treacherous intervention saved Darth Sidious because Mace Windu A) was on the verge of overcoming Darth Sidious, or B) Mace Windu had already overpowered Darth Sidious, or C) Mace Windu might have overwhelmed Darth Sidious otherwise:

"With Palpatine's true nature revealed, Anakin is shaken to the core. The Chancellor has always been a mentor to Anakin, so he now feels deeply conflicted. He rushes to Mace Windu to inform the Jedi of this catastrophic turn of events, but when Palpatine is almost defeated, Anakin is tempted by the Sith's offer go save Padmé. He turns on Mace, cutting off his forearm. Palpatine then kills the Jedi Master."

~ The Star Wars Book

Meanwhile, in the Chancellor’s office, Palpatine was far from meekly accepting his fate. By the time Anakin arrived on the scene, three of the four Jedi Masters lay dead, cut down by Palpatine’s crimson lightsaber blade before it was lost. The Sith Lord’s fate was now in Mace Windu’s hands alone.

Palpatine had orchestrated so much of Anakin’s life to ensure Skywalker would become his apprentice at just the right moment. When Anakin saw Palpatine cowering beneath Windu’s purple saber, the time had come to choose. The fate of the galaxy rested on Anakin’s decision.

Both men tried to persuade Anakin that the other was the real traitor. Dark lightning emanated from Palpatine’s fingertips, ricocheting off Windu’s blade to leave Darth Sidious deformed, his placid features replaced by a withered and scarred visage that matched his dark heart. The Jedi had been unfaithful to their own doctrine and become warmongers. The Chancellor had betrayed the Republic, becoming the chief conductor of the Galactic Senate’s widespread corruption. Neither was innocent.

~ Skywalker: Family At War

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~ Star Wars: The Complete Visual Dictionary, Expanded Edition

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~ Secrets of the Jedi

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~ Star Wars Topps, Commemorative Collection #96

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~ Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

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More often than not, in this continuity, Mace Windu is described as more than a match for Darth Sidious, and a Jedi Master quite similar to Yoda in ability. Master Windu is called the Jedi Order's champion, too:

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~ Force and Destiny: Knights of Fate

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https://www.starwars.com/databank/mace-windu

Mace Windu was always supposed to be at the top of the Jedi Order, like fellow Master Yoda -- that's his character.

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SonOfDarkness

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Vader buries him

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LightorDark

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Windu takes it. He beat Palpatine. He is beating Vader, who is always second.

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spodeyodey

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Sidious toying with Windu because he "knew" anakin would stop Windu from killing him and turn to the dark side? That's the definition of PLOT DEVICE. It's not our fault George Lucas screwed that one up, Windu handled Sidious. this is literally THE ONLY TIME EVER that sidious put himself in a vulnerable position EVER while he was Darth Sidious and he got put in that position because WINDU was an absolute UNIT.

Windu SLAPS Vader. 9/10. Vader has the potential to win at least one round.

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nassergrant19

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