ROTS Sidious vs ROTJ Vader (sabers only)

Forgot to mention this is a canon fight.

Callouts:

Vader stomp

I wanna say narrowly Palps, but honestly did not expect Vader to lose this poll so badly.

Most SW fans I encounter on CV put ANH Vader already above all prequel characters altogether. Well, who knew.

Most of the canon community have ROTJ Vader above ROTS Yoda in an all out fight, going by the last thread. So same should be true for ROTS Sidious. But I think making it sabers only may tilt it for Palpatine.

KFV has a lot of accolades putting him at titan level, and the suit Vader quotes which scale him above his pre suit self are all in regards to the force.

Sidious wins based on feats. Vader wins based on statements.

Wait I thought KFV was Vader at his prime. So ROTJ is actually above KFV in the force?

...Wait would that make old Ben from ANH above ROTS Yoda? Mind. Blown.

@comicgirl21:

KFV is argued as his prime in Legends. In Disney canon, suit Vader has a number of sources scaling him above his pre suit self in the force (and almost none saying otherwise). He also has far superior force feats. So yes in Disney canon, prime suit Vader beats KFV.

As for ANH Ben, disney have taken a different approach on that fight. Vader was confirmed to have been very cautious in that fight due to mustafar. The novel From A Certain Point of View also states from Obi Wan's POV that he had no chance of beating Vader and that he was getting driven back and dominated. So it seems Disney re-contextualied this fight as Vader having dominated hard.

So I don't think ANH Ben can beat ROTS Yoda. Though ROTJ Luke certainly has a shot, given that he scales to ROTJ Vader per a number of sources. ROTJ Luke is actually > ROTS Anakin in Disney.

Darth Sidious wears Vader down by sending in, one after the other:

1. Obi-Wan Kenobi
2. Eeth Koth
3. Ahsoka Tano
4. Old Maul
5. Old Ben
6. Jedi Padawan Luke Skywalker
7. Commander Karbin
8. Qi'ra
9. Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker

And then, Palpatine sends in Padme's handmaidens to finish the job.

He could beat Anakin in sabers. He has knowledge on Anakin's style, whereas the same is not true in reverse.

He's not superior in saber skill at all.

Even power is debatable. Anakin has repeatedly shown that he can tap into far greater levels of power than he is normally capable of under situations where he's put under a great deal of stress or emotional turmoil.

OT: Sidious clowns him. He's better in every way.

Sidious wins.

He killed 3 masters in seconds. (and each Master was Grievous level)

Yawn Sidious wins again.

if this is Legends than Sidious honestly 10/10's in a very mild manner.

Vader grew in power but his lightsaber skills declined, Palpatine should win comfortably.

@frozen: Thanks man :)

So what you're saying is, in canon KFV in his prime in dueling and ROTJ Vader is his prime in the force. Wouldn't KFV have a shot at winning then still? Kinda like Mace was able to beat Sidious?

What I'm saying is - Not many fights end with force abuse being a deciding factor. Unless your power gap is so massive it's a one sided stomp (Yoda and Ventress comes to mind) I don't think having the edge in power is an advantage with higher value than superior skill.

If we made a list of all force user fights in SW canon and roughly divided them into two groups - superior force power being a deciding factor and skill being one, I'm pretty sure skill would win by like 7/10 ratio bare minimum.

@comicgirl21:

Thanks man :)

No worries.

So what you're saying is, in canon KFV in his prime in dueling and ROTJ Vader is his prime in the force.

That's correct.

Wouldn't KFV have a shot at winning then still? Kinda like Mace was able to beat Sidious?

No, I don't think so. The power gap between pre suit Vader and prime suit Vader is noticeably wider than Mace vs Sidious (Mace has force power confirmed on par with Yoda). Vader also knows exactly how Anakin fights, whereas the same isn't true in reverse. Also even if pre suit is more skilled, suit Vader has superior force augmentation in addition to TK.

What I'm saying is - Not many fights end with force abuse being a deciding factor.

While that's true, the majority of Vader's fights end up with him relying on the force lol. He force spams most of the time (Korbin, Ashoka, Momin etc).

Unless your power gap is so massive it's a one sided stomp (Yoda and Ventress comes to mind) I don't think having the edge in power is an advantage with higher value than skill

It's not like Yoda v Ventress, but its noticeable enough. Vader had linear growth in the force following ROTS. Couple that with knowing Anakins style and he wins out. Anakin also just doesn't have many feats in canon.

True, but we can acknowledge that there's been a recent burst in canon sources hyping Anakin up. An unparalleled warrior, stronger than any other Jedi, Palpatine conceding that Anakin almost rivaled him, etc. The EU narrative seems clear in regard to him, thus far.

Vader get cut into pieces, he doesn't stand a chance. Suited Vader consistently fought people which he MASSIVELY surpassed in the force or people who don't possess the force at all (Karbin, Qi'ra) and none of his performances suggest that he could beat the guy who displayed force-amp in agility/speed and lightsaber skills to the lvl of Sidious. Vader consistently struggled against agile and mobile opponents as soon as they are skilled enough to duel him, yet people believe that Vader is going to defeat the guy who was overwhelming in speed and mobility both Maul and Savage, enjoying himself in sabers with the both of them and who stomped 3 Jedi Masters from the council ?

Literally everything indicate that Vader is massively limited by his lack of mobility and dexterity due to his suit, he get killed after a brief fight.

Also even if pre suit is more skilled, suit Vader has superior force augmentation in addition to TK.

@frozen

Meh, Vader never displayed anything crazy with force augmentation when he was dueling. Force power doesn't directly scale to force augmention, they are different use of the force after all, which therefore apply and should be considered differently, they are also influenced by the character fighting style, lightsaber form and some additional points. If we scale Vader TK feats to his force augmentation he shouldn't have any problem in overpowering Ahsoka easily and ragdolling her with each strike, yet he never did something like that. With Qi'ra he should have stomped her by breaking her bones as soon as their weapons clashed and yet...

Vader is without a doubt very strong and his force augmentation is certainly impressive, but nothing he displayed would apply to him being able to keep up with ROTS Sidious in combat. As for KFV the only reason on why Vader could win will be due to his prior and perfect knowledge on KFV fighting style and saber form. If you take out this advantage , Suit Vader is outclassed badly.

While that's true, the majority of Vader's fights end up with him relying on the force lol. He force spams most of the time (Korbin, Ashoka, Momin etc).

In two of those three fights Vader was incapable to win via the force though lol. He BFR Ahsoka with a force push after having sustained a force-push himself by her, against Karbin he was never able to press his force advantage to conclude the fight , he used Aphra to kill him. Against Momin the only reason on why Vader was successful was because Momin let his guard down and did not expected Vader to have such strength left.