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#1 Posted by Kurk (344 posts) - - Show Bio
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VS

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RULES:

- Expanded Universe Legends ONLY

- RotS Sidious just prior to his fight with Windu

- Peak Exar Kun and Tyranus

- Cin Drallig from the Revenge of the Sith Video Game as per his duel with Anakin/Vader

- Standard Equipment for all (Kun has his Sith artifacts). Sidious has one lightsaber to start

Round 1: Lightsaber Duel Only

Round 2: All-out fight

Round 3: Force only fight

Takes place here, 20 meter starting distance, random encounter :

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Please mention any of the following scenarios in which you believe the outcome could change for either side:

- Sidious has two lightsabers

- Either team has 5 minutes prep time

- Cin Drallig is removed

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#3 Posted by jt_gh (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

Sabers only team might well take it. Sidious wins the other two rounds. Cin Drallig is kind of useless here.

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#4 Posted by decaf_wizard (17018 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku and Kun combined are enough

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#5 Posted by Kurk (344 posts) - - Show Bio

@jt_gh: His performance against Vader in the RotS game would say otherwise.

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#6 Posted by TheMuser (1888 posts) - - Show Bio

Uhhhhh So question, is this Kun that is sub SF malak or is this proper Kun that we all know and love/hate? In one situation the team doesn't get instantaneously stomped and makes a fight of it. In the order everyone falls over dead.

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#7 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Drallig meets the same end as Tiin and Kolar did in the Chancellor's Office. It's Sheev vs Dooku and Exar, a duo which cannot come close to overpowering the Emperor, who wins this fight pretty conclusively.

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#8 Posted by darthbane77 (2114 posts) - - Show Bio

Palpatine slaughters. Dooku is the only one that MIGHT not get blitzed right out the gate.

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#9 Posted by Kurk (344 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: The two jedi who died were blitzed and obviously weren't expecting what happened. That's not the case here. Can't wait for the Kun lowballing to commence.

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#10 Posted by Redshift_Bacon (688 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly think team could pull this off. If Sidious gets 2 sabers the fight is over tho.

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#11 Posted by PayneInTheAss (11778 posts) - - Show Bio

What is Drallig doing here tho

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#12 Posted by NiteLite (2710 posts) - - Show Bio

Palpatine.

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#13 Posted by echostarlord117 (5617 posts) - - Show Bio

Palpatine wins. Drallig shouldn't have been included, he'd be one-shot before either of his teammates know what's going on. Dooku and Kun aren't nearly enough to take Palpatine down.

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#14 Posted by LadyKulvax (9 posts) - - Show Bio

Exar Kun can take ROTS Sheev by himself. With Dooku it is decisive.

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#15 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16807 posts) - - Show Bio

Cin gets one-shotted, followed by Kun and Dooku in short order.

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#16 Posted by mastercilghal (311 posts) - - Show Bio

I’d say team can win. Drallig was able to put up a great fight against KF Vader in the video game, so he can hold his own, while the team provides additional support.

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#17 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

drallig too str0nk

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#18 Posted by Discipulus (762 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious stands a very good chance in the Force round, but I think the team takes one and three.

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#19 Posted by Richard96 (5807 posts) - - Show Bio

Draillin solos. He trained Serra Keto who kicked KF Vader who is canonically stronger than Sidious. Draillin > Keto > Vader > Sidious!

Online
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#20 Posted by Kurk (344 posts) - - Show Bio

The Drallig low-balling needs to stop

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#21 Posted by jt_gh (1153 posts) - - Show Bio

@kurk said:

@jt_gh: His performance against Vader in the RotS game would say otherwise.

I played that game. A cutscene or two does not a factor make him imo.

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#22 Posted by Dawn_of_Ages (2527 posts) - - Show Bio

Just going to put this out here:

Revenge of the Sith video game continuity...

Jocasta Nu and Serra Keto deaths are continuity; Cin Drallig's is not (he doesn't even wear the same costume as he does in the movie) nor are any other discpencies between the game and the movie. Some of the "deleted scene" levels from the Trade Federation cruiser levels might fit in. Obviously, the alternate ending is non-continuity.

Leland Chee, Holocron Continuity Database

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#23 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2258 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1 = Team. Dooku alone can challenge Sidious, as can Kun. Them and Drallig combined are too much.

Round 2 = All depends on Force abuse.

Round 3 = Sidious if he acts quickly.

Lol at canon being mentioned. Completely irrelevent, as the OP says this is Drallig as he was in the video game, regardless of your views as to its legitimacy. And that Drallig legit no-sold KF Vader's telekinetic attack and then proceeded to ragdoll him:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xUHxHP6o65r8es6W8

So where is the KF Vader =/> Sidious group? For those who hold that view, KF ROTS VG Drallig solos the Force round, apparently.

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#24 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2258 posts) - - Show Bio

Good battle thread though. Sidious with two sabers could last longer in a duel, but it doesn't change the outcome.

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#25 Edited by dark_globe (664 posts) - - Show Bio

drallig is fodder in this battle (don´t care about some video game mechanics , in movie he lasted like 3 seconds on camera record) .
video game does not change the fact that KF vader pretty much soloed the jedi temple with drallig being in it to defend .

with that out of the way ...
if we go by the logic that this duo could certainly give yoda a run for his money or even beat him and yoda was almost like 99% equal to RoTS sidious than it is save to say
that kun and dooku might be enough to take at least few rounds in force and all out and majority in sabers
(dooku is equally good duelist and him and kun combined could much RoTS sidious in force:
lets not forget RoTS is still vastly pre prime sidious who may or may not legit lost to mace windu alone)

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#26 Edited by Lord_Tenebrous (2258 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe:

Whether or not you think the video game version of Drallig is authentic or not is irrelevent. The iteration of him that is involved in this fight, is the video game one. And thus, that is the one you must consider.

And it's not game mechanics. It was a cutscene portion.

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#27 Edited by dark_globe (664 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous said:

@dark_globe:

Whether or not you think the video game version of Drallig is authentic or not is irrelevent. The iteration of him that is involved in this fight, is the video game one. And thus, that is the one you must consider.

i must consider nothing :) so don´t tell me what i must or must not do . thank you .

RoTS sidious is still superior to KF vader in every way (although just by a slim margin) and anakin ultimately beat dralling regardless
(just with different difficulty in this case) because it is bulletproof canon .

drallig would be first to go down anyway because he is the weakest here by far ,
movie version would get insta one shoted , video game version might last a few seconds longer .

as i said prime kun and dooku alone are enough in this fight
and if this version of drallig could distract sidious at least for a few seconds than it gives them majority in all rounds .

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#28 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2258 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe:

I can't tell you what to do, but what you're doing is the equivalent of me posting about how say Return Satele is fodder against Maul in the Dooku vs Maul thread, acting as though she's a combatant in that thread even though she's not. Novel Drallig and video game Drallig are two different characters. One was fodderized, the other held the edge.

So if Sidious is only above KF Vader by only a slim margin, how is video game Drallig still fodder? He and Vader had a Force exchange wherein he no-sold Vader's Force Push and then ragdolled him:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xUHxHP6o65r8es6W8

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#29 Edited by dark_globe (664 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous said:

@dark_globe:

I can't tell you what to do, but what you're doing is the equivalent of me posting about how say Return Satele is fodder against Maul in the Dooku vs Maul thread, acting as though she's a combatant in that thread even though she's not. Novel Drallig and video game Drallig are two different characters. One was fodderized, the other held the edge.

So if Sidious is only above KF Vader by only a slim margin, how is video game Drallig still fodder? He and Vader had a Force exchange wherein he no-sold Vader's Force Push and then ragdolled him:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/xUHxHP6o65r8es6W8

i did not say he is still fodder if we take this ridiculous version of him .

i only said he would be the first to go down regardless and that he would last a bit in a fight and it might give his teammates the edge needed to take the majority in this fight .

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#30 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

Team lmao. Both Dooku and Drallig can put up a fight on their own (given this is VG Drallig) and they should be able to take him together. Throwing in Kun just makes this a stomp.

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#31 Posted by Kurk (344 posts) - - Show Bio

drallig is fodder in this battle (don´t care about some video game mechanics , in movie he lasted like 3 seconds on camera record) .

I don't know where people get this from. Maybe it's because I haven't watched the entire film in quite some time, but judging by the various YouTube clips of the temple security footage, I only see Drallig exchanging blows with KF Vader for 3 seconds before the scene switches back to Yoda/Obi-Wan and then back to the holocam footage showing Vader kneeling before Sidious. Nothing, from what I see, indicates that Vader killed Drallig in a few seconds. Rather, the security footage fast forwards to the next event. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

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#32 Posted by dark-sith123 (5033 posts) - - Show Bio

Ohh, so this is the non-canon version of Drallig?

Sure, the team actually puts up somewhat of a fight, but they still die. Kun is too weak to do shit here and Dooku can be eliminated with no difficulty whatsoever.

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#33 Posted by Kurk (344 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark-sith123: Even in pure sabers Dooku can be eliminated with no difficulty whatsoever? Would love to hear reasoning for that on a 1 on 1 nevermind a 3 on 1 battle.

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#34 Edited by dark_globe (664 posts) - - Show Bio

@kurk said:
@dark_globe said:

drallig is fodder in this battle (don´t care about some video game mechanics , in movie he lasted like 3 seconds on camera record) .

I don't know where people get this from. Maybe it's because I haven't watched the entire film in quite some time, but judging by the various YouTube clips of the temple security footage, I only see Drallig exchanging blows with KF Vader for 3 seconds before the scene switches back to Yoda/Obi-Wan and then back to the holocam footage showing Vader kneeling before Sidious. Nothing, from what I see, indicates that Vader killed Drallig in a few seconds. Rather, the security footage fast forwards to the next event. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

anakin fights drallig with one hand while dealing with (killing) some random padawan or whatever at the same time .
drallig was dominated , speculations are pointless , it doesn´t really matter if he lasted 3 , 10 or 20 seconds .

KF vader decimated the entire jedi temple . there is really not much space to be open for imagination in this case .
anyone who tries to sell the idea dralling was actually posing somewhat serious threat for KF vader is really stretching it a bit too far .

(i really could not care less for some 10+ years old game mechanics and cut scenes tbh) :
(of course drallig as the "final boss" in the temple had to present some kind of a challenge due to entertainment value but that´s about it) .

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#35 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@kurk:

I don't know where people get this from. Maybe it's because I haven't watched the entire film in quite some time, but judging by the various YouTube clips of the temple security footage, I only see Drallig exchanging blows with KF Vader for 3 seconds before the scene switches back to Yoda/Obi-Wan and then back to the holocam footage showing Vader kneeling before Sidious. Nothing, from what I see, indicates that Vader killed Drallig in a few seconds. Rather, the security footage fast forwards to the next event. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

There's a cut to Kenobi's face in the movie (which is when Drallig could have been cut down) and Dark Nest supports this by saying that after Anakin had cut down Bene and Whie Drallig lasted "an instant". If this is using the official Legends policy and comments from Chee the VG's account is invalid and Drallig gets cut down in an instant.

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#36 Edited by Lord_Tenebrous (2258 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

A) As per the movie, Drallig lasted 7 seconds and exchanged 11 audible blows with Vader. Hardly a mere "instant," immediately ruling out the DN account.

B) Chee specifically stated that the game duel was non-canon because it conflicted with the movie. Thing is, it doesn't. There's an unknown period of time in between when Vader is first notified of Drallig's resistance, and when Vader encounters Serra Keto. The movie events can easily fit into that timespace, therefore undermining the reason behind Chee's statement, and therefore, the conclusion. Chee himself uses this line of reasoning in the very same quote, in reference to some deleted scene Trade Federation cruiser levels.

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#37 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio
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#38 Posted by EmmaFrostXmen (2541 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1- Team

Round 2- Sidious

Round 3- Sidious

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#39 Edited by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous:

A) As per the movie, Drallig lasted 7 seconds and exchanged 11 audible blows with Vader. Hardly a mere "instant," immediately ruling out the DN account.

That doesn't rule out the DN account. The DN account depicts Drallig dying in an instant after Bene and Whie are cut down which isn't a contradiction given it can easily fit in when the movie cuts to Kenobi's face. It's easily reconcilable as you just take the start of the Dark Nest account (where Bene and Whie get cut down before Anakin even clashes sabers with Drallig) and replace it with the movie version (where Anakin defeats Bene and Whie while duelling Drallig) and then have Drallig dying in "an instant" afterward like in Dark Nest (it can fit into the movie when it cuts to Kenobi's face). Absolutely nothing is contradictory about that. The only reason your so persistent with these arguments is to lowball KF Vader when we both know perfectly well that there isn't anything to really argue over. It's simple. Drallig gets killed quickly by KF Vader.

B) Chee specifically stated that the game duel was non-canon because it conflicted with the movie. Thing is, it doesn't. There's an unknown period of time in between when Vader is first notified of Drallig's resistance, and when Vader encounters Serra Keto. The movie events can easily fit into that timespace, therefore undermining the reason behind Chee's statement, and therefore, the conclusion. Chee himself uses this line of reasoning in the very same quote, in reference to some deleted scene Trade Federation cruiser levels.

He probably said it's non-canon because it doesn't really make sense even if you try to reconcile it and Drallig doesn't where the same costume as in the movie. Are we supposed to believe that Drallig somehow escaped from Vader and the clones despite having no backup and absolutely nowhere to run before returning with a lovely change of wardrobe? The Dark Nest account is easily the most plausible and has the fewest contradictions.

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#40 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2258 posts) - - Show Bio

@arkhamasylum3:

"That doesn't rule out the DN account"

Ah but it does.

"The DN account depicts Drallig dying in an instant after Bene and Whie are cut down"

Indeed, yet another contradiction in the DN portrayal. In the movie, Vader slaughters Whie, then chokes Bene while holding off Drallig for a few seconds. In DN, Vader cuts down both Padawans, only then engaging Drallig who he kills instantly. So thank you for further aiding my point. 

"which isn't a contradiction given it can easily fit in when the movie cuts to Kenobi's face."

It absolutely is, because as per the movie, Drallig and Vader engaged prior to Bene's disposal, and then continued audibly battling for another 5 seconds before the holorecording ends. A stark contrast to DN.

"It's easily reconcilable as you just take the start of the Dark Nest account (where Bene and Whie get cut down before Anakin even clashes sabers with Drallig) and replace it with the movie version (where Anakin defeats Bene and Whie while duelling Drallig) and then have Drallig dying in "an instant" afterward like in Dark Nest (it can fit into the movie when it cuts to Kenobi's face)."

This is all addressed above.

"The only reason your so persistent with these arguments is to lowball KF Vader when we both know perfectly well that there isn't anything to really argue over. It's simple. Drallig gets killed quickly by KF Vader." 

None of this is true whatsoever. Personal accusations are unnecessary and uncalled for.

"He said it's non-canon because it doesn't really fit even if you try to reconcile it."

Leland never said that in the quote. He said It's non-canon because it (allegedly) is a discrepancy between the film and game. But It's completely reconcilable as I've already detailed.

"Are we supposed to believe that Drallig somehow escaped from Vader and the clones despite having no backup and absolutely nowhere to run"

Who said there were clones present in the duel? We saw none in the movies, simply Drallig, the Padawans, and Vader. We didn't even hear blasterfire, only the clashes of lightsabers. And literally what exactly is so impossible to believe about Drallig escaping? Blasted Ventress escaped from Mace. Surely Drallig, the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, is capable of breaking off an engagement between a guy who was hardpressed by IG-102.   

"before returning with a lovely change of wardrobe?"

His clothing is irrelevent. 

"The Dark Nest account is easily the most plausible and has the fewest contradictions."

The video game is quite plausible and contains zero contradictions.

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#41 Edited by dark_globe (664 posts) - - Show Bio

few more posts and it will be established drallig is actually KF vader or mace windu level .
shaking my head
people trying to make a case for him out of a thin air . this is just silly .
drallig is not even qui qon jinn level , let alone big boys from RoTS .

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#42 Posted by Lord_Tenebrous (2258 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe:

Drallig is the official Battlemaster of the Order, why should he be fodder to someone who struggled against IG-102? In the Jedi Path, Obi-Wan mused that Dooku would be incapable of defeating a Battlemaster, and Dooku himself noted that Drallig would be more than a match for General Grievous. By reputation, Drallig is already a top-tier. By his status as Battlemaster, he scales over PT-era lesser lightsaber instructors like Anoon Bondara(Qui-Gon's favorite sparring partner, was reputed to be an unrivaled swordmaster and could hold his own against Darth Maul), Waldan Bridger(matched Grievous for 20 entire seconds using a San-Ni staff which is almost impossible to use effectively in lightsaber combat, and he did this after fighting a battle, wherein he was the last man standing), Soara Antana(was superior to AOTC Anakin and AOTC Kenobi, was considered the most skilled lightsaber instructor of the time, was a legendary fighter while still a Jedi Knight, was regarded as a legendary lightsaber enthusiast), B'Ink Utrila(was the last one standing against General Grievous amongst a group consisting of the likes of Foul Moudama and Roron Corobb, two of the most extremely skilled duelists of the time), and Sora Bulq(co-creator of Vaapad, outclassed Tholme and Quinlan Vos, was stated to be one of the most skilled lightsaber instructors of all time, could hold his own against AOTC Mace Windu). So pardon me if I have difficulty believing that Anakin, who is 22 and struggles against Grievous' bodyguards, can stomp a swordsman of Drallig's calibre.

This isn't out of thin air, it's all just simply overlooked.

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#43 Edited by Greysentinel365 (6307 posts) - - Show Bio

Frankly IG-102 would beat Cin.

The idea that momentarily struggling with Grievous’ most skilled guards, who are designed like him to match Jedi and programmed with all the saber forms is some kind of inescapable lowball is just kind of hilarious. And shows utter ignorance on the subject or deliberate lowballing. Anakin struggling with 102 means it’s just that good. It doesn’t magically erase all of Skywalkers other feats and hype

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#44 Edited by Lord_Tenebrous (2258 posts) - - Show Bio

Sigh

Anakin flat-out struggled against IG-102 for nearly 30 seconds, an embarrassingly lengthy amount of time. Them being programmed with a vague knowledge of all lightsaber forms is no excuse, and irrelevent when it comes to this tier. SWTOR Sith Warriors train to kill Jedi as their sole purpose, Darth Sion was the best of an elite group of warriors dedicated to swordmastery. All of these are regarded as fodder. The above user is employing appalling double standards and is using garbage logic in order to excuse the fact that ROTS Anakin indisputably was hardpressed by one of General Grievous' bodyguards. The second tier bad guy of the second tier bad guy's second tier bad guy.

Yet we are supposed to pretend that Anakin is capable of easily stomping Cin Drallig, who by his status alone already surpasses every single accolade mentioned above in regard to IG-102. Despite all valid evidence being to the contrary. Completely inane.

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#45 Edited by dark_globe (664 posts) - - Show Bio

drallig was casualy beaten by KF vader . there is no discussion to be had here .
drallig is not KF vader , windu , yoda or sidious level ,
he is not even dookus or RoTS obi wan level no matter how hard you try to hype him .

he is as much of a blade/battle master as those council members fodderized by sidious (with windu as backup mind you) .
they also have reputation and statements backing up their mastery with the blade surrounding them ( but it did not help them when facing a level 9 force user did it ?! )
drallig , tiin and kolar are all very good but they are simply not on par with top tier 8s and 9 fighters in the mythos .

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#46 Posted by mastercilghal (311 posts) - - Show Bio

@dark_globe: he did put up a better fight against Vader than the members of the council, though. You can clearly see in all the official sources that depict the fight ( revenge of the Sith, movie and novel , sourcebooks and the novel “dark nest 2: the unseen queen” ) that Drallig was cut down quickly, but he did put up a fight. He’s clearly better than Kolar , tiin and Fisto.

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#47 Edited by Kilius (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace beat Sidious. Anakin killed him and dominated him throughout the fight in the VG.

Anakin > Windu.

No Caption Provided

Serra actually drives Anakin back she must be at least equal to Windu:

No Caption Provided

Drallig ragdolls Ankain:

No Caption Provided

Drallig > Anakin > Serra <=> Windu > Sidious

He solos with eaze.

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#48 Posted by Deadlyeyes (276 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by Deadlyeyes (276 posts) - - Show Bio

Sidious wins.

Drallig dies first, then Kun, then Dooku

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#50 Posted by ArkhamAsylum3 (3920 posts) - - Show Bio

@lord_tenebrous:

Indeed, yet another contradiction in the DN portrayal. In the movie, Vader slaughters Whie, then chokes Bene while holding off Drallig for a few seconds. In DN, Vader cuts down both Padawans, only then engaging Drallig who he kills instantly.

Which isn't relevant whatsoever. As I said previously you can simply replace this account with the movie version which has Drallig duelling KF Vader for several seconds while Vader cuts down Bene and Whie and then use Vader killing Drallig in "an instant" as the ending when the movie cuts to Yoda and then to Kenobi's face.

So thank you for further aiding my point.

Amusing.

It absolutely is, because as per the movie, Drallig and Vader engaged prior to Bene's disposal, and then continued audibly battling for another 5 seconds before the holorecording ends. A stark contrast to DN.

The first part isn't at all relevant. The start of the sequence can easily be ignored and instead we can use the portrayal in the movie and use the Dark Nest segment for the end of the duel as I said previously.

As for the second segment, there's no contradiction. 5 seconds can easily be classed as an "instant" given Lightsaber duels nearly always at least last up to 30 seconds and an instant is simply defined as "a very short time; a moment" (Credit: Google) and this duel certainly is short compared to most other Lightsaber duels. In fact, I often say to someone if I'm leaving to go to get something that I'll be back in "an instant" despite taking like 10 seconds to get back meaning that "an instant" can be defined as any period of time so long as it's not particularly lengthy and this duel certainly wasn't.

Leland never said that in the quote. He said It's non-canon because it (allegedly) is a discrepancy between the film and game. But It's completely reconcilable as I've already detailed.

I mean I'll admit it's reconcilable but it has more contradictions than Dark Nest and is overall less plausible.

Who said there were clones present in the duel? We saw none in the movies, simply Drallig, the Padawans, and Vader. We didn't even hear blasterfire, only the clashes of lightsabers.

I kinda forgot there weren't clones in the movie.

And literally what exactly is so impossible to believe about Drallig escaping? Blasted Ventress escaped from Mace.

I mean I was more talking on him being surrounded by Clone Troopers while fighting Anakin. I can definitely see him escaping from Anakin solo if we go by the VG and assume he's Anakin's equal. Regardless of that fact him running away doesn't make sense given he doesn't attempt to do so later and he's meant to be evenly matched with Anakin so him running away defies all logic. Please enlighten me on why he ran away though.

Surely Drallig, the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order, is capable of breaking off an engagement between a guy who was hardpressed by IG-102.

More lowballing. Great. Anyway DS Anakin =/= LS Anakin. The former is more powerful so we cannot ascribe any of LS Anakin's showings to DS Anakin.

His clothing is irrelevent.

Not really. Given the Dark Nest sequence isn't at all contradicted yet the VG has a very clear discrepancy with the costumes we should logically take the former over the latter.

The video game is quite plausible and contains zero contradictions.

1. It's plausible sure but Dark Nest is more plausible imo and it's backed up by other sources. While the ROTS Novel is largely contradictory to the film in the way it portrays the scene the fact that both it and Dark Nest depict Drallig dying in the sequence makes me more inclined to take Dark Nest over the ROTS VG.

2. Drallig's costume...