@Aristeaus: .....ANH Ben is not on par with ROTS Sidious in Legends. That's the first time I've ever seen anyone claim that, so at least you have a degree or uniqueness in your position.
As far as Disney canon is concerned, Old Ben is confimed as weaker.
This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weakerwhile Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thrist for revenge.” — Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force (2016).
And again:
Ben also noted he had no chance against Vader in the canon novel From A Certain Point of View at the time of his death - and that he was driven back:
"Your powers are weak, old man." Our lightsabers clash. I try to push forward, only to be thrust violently back. It's like striking iron. There's no give in Vader's arms, and far too much in mine.
"You should not have come back," Vader tells me.
My resources are depleted, my body screaming with pain. I have no hope of winning this fight.
--I'm forced back, muscle burning, breath ragged. The grip of my lightsaber is slick in my hands, my ears ringing. - Obi-Wan Kenobi [Time of Death]
@Aristeaus: .....ANH Ben is not on par with ROTS Sidious in Legends. That's the first time I've ever seen anyone claim that, so at least you have a degree or uniqueness in your position.
As far as Disney canon is concerned, Old Ben is confimed as weaker.
This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weakerwhile Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thrist for revenge.” — Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force (2016).
And again:
Ben also noted he had no chance against Vader in the canon novel From A Certain Point of View at the time of his death - and that he was driven back:
"Your powers are weak, old man." Our lightsabers clash. I try to push forward, only to be thrust violently back. It's like striking iron. There's no give in Vader's arms, and far too much in mine.
"You should not have come back," Vader tells me.
My resources are depleted, my body screaming with pain. I have no hope of winning this fight.
--I'm forced back, muscle burning, breath ragged. The grip of my lightsaber is slick in my hands, my ears ringing. - Obi-Wan Kenobi [Time of Death]
So, lets start with Canon.
Firstly, as far as I can tell, that first quote is not from Jedi vs Sith. It is from Jedi Battles, which was in 2013, before Disney Canon.
Secondly, From a Certain Point of View, is suito-canon. It has many contradictions in it, and Matt Martin confirmed that it was intentional. If a canon book has intentional contradictions, its not exactly going to be given a ton of merit.
Where as I have an actual canon quote:
-- Source: Star Wars Made Easy: A Beginner's Guide to a Galaxy Far, Far Away
Obi-Wan being older or physically weaker does not mean he was not prime. Obi-Wan focused on the force in exile, and gained great power in it.
Obi-Wan was 57 when he died in ANH. That is nothing to force users. Dooku was close to 80. Sidious was 88. Both grew in power substantially after 57 years old. That same statement could be used for either of them, but would not be logically sound.
Hell, the statement can be used for Vader as well. He was older and physically weaker, but force users gain power in wisdom and knowledge of the force.
There aren't any more quotes that I can find, but there are some interesting contextual situations.
Palpatine seemed to know that Obi-Wan was the biggest threat to his plans. He tried to get Anakin to leave him on the Hand. He sent the largest clone battalion to Utapau for Order 66, where Obi-Wan was. In contrast, Palpatine had 2 clones try to kill Yoda, and was surprised he survived that.
Obi-Wan was the first Jedi to achieve immortality.
Rogue one has Mon Motha ask Bail to contact the Jedi, and the first person to come to his mind is Obi-Wan, not Yoda, who he personally transported to Dagobah and knew was the GM of the Jedi Order.
Bail also told Leia about the Jedi. That is how she knew of Obi-Wan. Leia saw Ben as her only hope, despite presumably knowing about Yoda, and his location.
As for legends:
The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.
Source: Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays
Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.
-- Beware The Sith
“This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”
-- A New Hope Novelization
"It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull."
-- Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi
"At first, Lucas and the writers debated whether it was appropriate for Vader to resort to these "tricks" and if viewers wouldn't wonder why he hadn't used them during his duel with Obi-Wan on the Death Star, but immediately arose the simple explanation that Obi-Wan was more powerful than Vader so it would have proved useless."
-- Star wars art treasures 26
"Vader couldn't use his supernatural powers against me, the force. He had to rely on brute force, which wasn't of any value because I was too advanced for that, so everything he did to me was useless."
-- George lucas and writers on Vader vs Ben, and why it wasn't a crazy battle.
@Aristeaus: Alright I'm on my mobile so forgive me if my formatting isn't great.
Firstly, as far as I can tell, that first quote is not from Jedi vs Sith. It is from Jedi Battles, which was in 2013, before Disney Canon.
There are two canon Jedi v Sith books from 2016. This one is canon, it just used reprinted Legends quotes in its book. Many canon books have done this.
Secondly,From a Certain Point of View,is suito-canon.It has many contradictions in it, and Matt Martin confirmed that it was intentional. If a canon book has intentional contradictions, its not exactly going to be given a ton of merit.
I mean, yeah that's the point. Its inherent in the title - From A Certain Point of View. This is a callback to Obi Wan's words to Luke in ROTJ when explaining why he chose to lie about his father - "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view" .
Contradictions don't invalidate the canonciity of a first person novel. In the Obi Wan v Vader passage, its entirely Obi's inner thoughts during the battle. The few descriptions of the fight match what happened on screen, which was Vader driving Obi back:
When it comes to the ccanoncity of sources, I think a novel offers more insight and a higher level of analysis than a reference book aimed at "beginners". Matt has also said random create statements don't mean anything (encompassing his own) and that he's refusing to declare it as not canon in spite of contradictions, it stands.
Where as I have an actual canon quote
Also, this quote doesn't align with whats shown on screen. How was he "seemingly winning" before death? At best they looked somewhat even, with vader having the edge. Given that Obi said he had "no chance of winning", he could not have been winning.
Obi-Wan being older or physically weaker does not mean he was not prime. Obi-Wan focused on the force in exile, and gained great power in it. Obi-Wan was 57 when he died in ANH. That is nothing to force users. Dooku was close to 80. Sidious was 88. Both grew in power substantially after 57 years old. That same statement could be used for either of them, but would not be logically sound.
While you have a point with the ages, Obi was on tatooine which is said to age people a lot quicker. His training was also infrequent compared to Sidious and Dooku's. New canon is leaning into Obi having declined, as evidenced by him being tired after having climbed a hill:
Hell, the statement can be used for Vader as well. He was older and physically weaker, but force users gain power in wisdom and knowledge of the force.
There aren't any more quotes that I can find, but there are some interesting contextual situations.
Palpatine seemed to know that Obi-Wan was the biggest threat to his plans. He tried to get Anakin to leave him on the Hand. He sent the largest clone battalion to Utapau for Order 66, where Obi-Wan was. In contrast, Palpatine had 2 clones try to kill Yoda, and was surprised he survived that.
Obi was Anakin's closest Jedi attachment and someone who would keep him in the light, so it makes sese for Obi to want to dispatch of him. I also strongly doubt that Palpatine thought Obi was > Yoda. IIRC they had a force vision clash in TCW and Sidious told Yoda in ROTS "Soon Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us". So he considered Yoda a peer. Yoda also had the reputation as the best duelist of the jedi order.
Obi-Wan was the first Jedi to achieve immortality.
IIRC it was Qui Gon.
Rogue one has Mon Motha ask Bail to contact the Jedi, and the first person to come to his mind is Obi-Wan, not Yoda, who he personally transported to Dagobah and knew was the GM of the Jedi Order.
That would simply mean Yoda decliend more, which is understandable given how old he had become.
Bail also told Leia about the Jedi. That is how she knew of Obi-Wan. Leia saw Ben as her only hope, despite presumably knowing about Yoda, and his location.
Ben certainly didn't consider himself as capable of defeating Vader, hence why he put all his hope into Luke and Leia.
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