ROTS Obi Wan vs AOTC Dooku

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Poll ROTS Obi Wan vs AOTC Dooku (20 votes)

Dooku stomps as always 40%
Obi stomps-he grew significantly in TCW 5%
Dooku in a good fight 35%
Obi in a good fight 25%

Fight takes place on the Invisible Hand where Anakin and Obi fought Dooku.

Start 30 feet apart. In character.

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Obi. Yoda blantantly says Obi could defeat someone he knows Dooku lost to. He doesn’t know if Anakin would be conflicted and both know each other’s moves, so it wasn’t an advantage, and he would still think Obi is capable of matching and countering Anakin

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EoROTS Obi-Wan eventually wins in a marathon based on his performance against MFV. I would favor the Count against IH Kenobi though.

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If its Legends Mustafar Kenobi, it can go either way,

Leaning towards Dooku based on his style which easily exploits Kenobi's.

Kenobi is more powerful tho.

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SonOfDarkness

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I could be wrong but in the rots novel wasn’t Obi actually pushing Dooku back and Dooku had to “cheat” by using his super battle droids to distract Kenobi so he could ragdoll him?

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Kaore

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I'd probably back Dooku - I think Master Kenobi as of the Disney+ show has a good shot at victory, though.

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#6  Edited By nassergrant19

Dooku wins, ROTS Kenobi wasn’t really high-tier. OWK Kenobi could stomp AOTC Dooku and Yoda together tho.

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LightorDark

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@sonofdarkness: I know the part you’re talking about. Anakin was pushing him back, and Kenobi was getting up, so Dooku “cheated” with the supers.

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Why are we forgetting Obi being capable of “destroying” KFV per Yodas word who KNOWS any bare minimum Base Anakin is Dookus superior? Obi at his peak, at the end of Mustafar when he lets his fear go can react and evade a Anakin stronger than his Jedi counterpart. This is what leads to OWK Obi wank. Because people don’t understand how powerful peak Kenobi is during ROTS

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BreakingThrones

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Dooku wins, ROTS Kenobi wasn’t really high-tier. OWK Kenobi could stomp AOTC Dooku and Yoda together tho.

I see you're back at it again lol.

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#10  Edited By BreakingThrones

I think this really depends on a couple of things:

How much has Obi Wan improved from AOTC - ROTS

How much has Dooku improved from AOTC-ROTS

We saw that AOTC Dooku was capable of beating Obi Wan during AOTC and then he held his own against AOTC Yoda. Let's break down this fight though so that we don't ignore any context:

Anakin is arrogant and charges in but is incapacitated by Dooku's lightning. After Dooku is done bragging about his powers and trying to get Obi Wan to stand down he tries to catch him off guard with a lightning attack but Obi Wan blocks it with his lightsaber with one hand. The two then engage in a 1v1 lightsaber duel that lasts approx 32 seconds and the whole time Dooku appears to be toying with Obi Wan before damaging his arm and leg to end the fight. That's Obi wan's whole fight vs him.

Now onto ROTS: This time we don't get to see Obi Wan duel him 1v1 at all, it's a 2v1. Obi Wan and Anakin fighting Dooku lasts approx 26 seconds before Obi Wan is incapacitated. Dooku does use the force on Obi Wan effectively twice during this fight but I think there are a couple of things to consider here:

A) Is Dooku using the force to incapacitate Obi Wan during this fight due to Dooku now being powerful enough to do this ( where he wasn't in AOTC) or is it because he is in a 2v1 and has been instructed to remove Obi Wan from the fight and during AOTC he didn't want to do this in their 1v1 as he would rather outduel him?

B) Does Sidious weaken Obi Wan's force shields to allow Dooku to ragdoll him? Both times on screen that we see Obi Wan attacked by Dooku with the force, we See Sidious being weird beforehand:

(HD 1080p) Anakin Skywalker & Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Count Dooku - YouTube

At 0:56 it cuts to Sidious looking like he is straining and then at 0:58 Obi Wan is ragdolled.

At 1:12 it cuts to Sidious again and he does this weirdass face and then at 1:15 Obi Wan is overpowered with the force and thrown out the fight.

If anyone knows the answer to this is would be great to hear because it would make a lot of sense as to how Obi Wan is so useless vs Dooku.

C) How much of an impact does the battle droids that Obi Wan has to fight at 1:06 -1:12 play? I remember reading somewhere ( maybe in the novel for ROTS) that Dooku distracted Obi Wan with the droids and then used that opportunity to remove him from the fight.

I also remember reading that during their fight in ROTS initially Obi Wan and Anakin used a different form to lul Dooku into a false sense of security and when Obi Wan switched to Soresu Dooku was actually worried because he realised that Obi Wan had completely mastered it.

So this is the sort of stuff that I'm trying to use to inform my opinion.

I'm going to ignore Obi Wan getting ragdolled by the force because we never see Dooku do this to him during AOTC and there are a lot of contextual factors surrounding him doing it in ROTS. There was quite a large gap between Obi Wan and Dooku in AOTC in terms of skill with Dooku beating Obi Wan within about 30 seconds. I'm certain that Obi Wan has improved throughout the clone wars but I'm not sure that he has improved so much as to beat AOTC Dooku.

Finally I'm going to consider the whole ROTS Anakin vs Obi Wan fight.

ROTS Dooku at least = AOTC Dooku and it's likely that ROTS Dooku has improved but I've no idea by how much. Anakin was able to beat Dooku in ROTS ( again there's a load of context to that victory but I won't get into that) and then Obi Wan was able to beat Anakin. But I don't think that this means that ROTS Obi Wan> ROTS Dooku

Obi Wan beating Anakin in ROTS is likely due to Anakin being conflicted and arrogant. Obi Wan trained him and knew his fighting style and how to manipulate his emotional state. Obi Wan was conflicted too but Obi Wan was certainly more centered and in control. Obi Wan being a master of Soresu and having trained Anakin allowed him to survive long enough to direct the fight to where he wanted it and then due to environmental factors he won the fight.

If Obi Wan had fought Anakin on the invisible hand then he would have lost eventually. There was no high ground over lava or anything like that which he could use to his advantage.

I think all in all ROTS Anakin> ROTS Obi Wan

This is further shown by Obi Wan being matched against opponents like Maul, Ventress and General Grievous throughout the clone wars - all of whom Dooku would beat.

All in all I'm leaning towards AOTC Dooku beating ROTS Obi Wan in a good fight but I'll wait a bit to vote.

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BreakingThrones

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Why are we forgetting Obi being capable of “destroying” KFV per Yodas word who KNOWS any bare minimum Base Anakin is Dookus superior? Obi at his peak, at the end of Mustafar when he lets his fear go can react and evade a Anakin stronger than his Jedi counterpart. This is what leads to OWK Obi wank. Because people don’t understand how powerful peak Kenobi is during ROTS

I think there is a lot that goes into this really. Yoda knew that someone had to stop Anakin and someone had to stop Sidious. Yoda knew that Obi Wan would lose to Sidious so Yoda had to face Sidious himself and that left Obi Wan to face Anakin. Yoda probably did believe Obi Wan could do it because he trained Anakin and was a master of Soresu but yeah ultimately someone had to go and try stop Anakin and as Yoda had to be the one to face Sidious, I think Yoda would have always sent the only other remaining Jedi availabe to him after Anakin, regardless of who that was.

I think the problem with the Mustafar Anakin/Vader vs Obi wan duel is that there is so much context surrounding it;

Obi Wan trained Anakin and when paired with his mastery of Soresu, that gives him what it takes to hold Anakin off.

Anakin at this stage is conflicted and not completely gone but he is also overly arrogant and filled with hate, out of control- all of these things lead to his failure because Obi Wan is able to focus on the battle and use the environment against Anakin. Ultimately Anakin defeats himself by doing a flip through the air that Obi Wan can easily counter.

If we have Obi Wan in the same position as Dooku e.g he hasn't trained Anakin, he is fighting him on the invisible hand ( no game changing environmental factors), Anakin has no feelings for him and just wants to kill him and all the other factors involved then I think Anakin would have won quite comfortably.

I do think that Obi Wan is more closely matched to Dooku then the films suggest though because I think that Sidious weakened his force shields in ROTS allowing Dooku to dispatch of him easily.

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#12  Edited By nassergrant19
@breakingthrones said:
@nassergrant19 said:

Dooku wins, ROTS Kenobi wasn’t really high-tier. OWK Kenobi could stomp AOTC Dooku and Yoda together tho.

I see you're back at it again lol.

I see your back at tagging me when I explicitly told you to stop in that locked thread of yours.

You even attempted to DM me…lol.

I recall something along the lines of Leave. Me. Alone.

Now take a hint and cease the tags…

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BreakingThrones

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@breakingthrones said:
@nassergrant19 said:

Dooku wins, ROTS Kenobi wasn’t really high-tier. OWK Kenobi could stomp AOTC Dooku and Yoda together tho.

I see you're back at it again lol.

I see your back at tagging me when I explicitly told you to stop in that locked thread of yours.

You even attempted to DM me…lol.

I recall something along the lines of Leave. Me. Alone.

Now take a hint and cease the tags…

Bruh, you're in a public forum for debating, I can tag you if I want to. It's not my thread though..

I did DM you once yeah askign why accused me of having an alt with 0 reason lmao.

Maybe don't use a public forum for debating if you don't want people tagging you when you say something ridiculous.

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Lord Tyranus.

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nassergrant19

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@nassergrant19 said:
@breakingthrones said:
@nassergrant19 said:

Dooku wins, ROTS Kenobi wasn’t really high-tier. OWK Kenobi could stomp AOTC Dooku and Yoda together tho.

I see you're back at it again lol.

I see your back at tagging me when I explicitly told you to stop in that locked thread of yours.

You even attempted to DM me…lol.

I recall something along the lines of Leave. Me. Alone.

Now take a hint and cease the tags…

Bruh, you're in a public forum for debating, I can tag you if I want to. It's not my thread though..

I did DM you once yeah askign why accused me of having an alt with 0 reason lmao.

Maybe don't use a public forum for debating if you don't want people tagging you when you say something ridiculous.

Only thing ridiculous is your headcanons but if a user doesn’t want to be tagged it’s against the rules to continue harassing them with tags.

I made that clear on the second page of the thread you got locked

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/obi-wan-owk-show-vs-mace-windu-rots-2272974/?page=2

Now I’ll say this for the last time. Stop tagging me, and stop private messaging me. Respectfully me alone.

@krisbishop, @frozen Can you help this guy understand my wishes cuz he’s continuing to tag me when I explicitly told him not to.

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#16 krisbishop  Moderator
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Living162637

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@breakingthrones:

Anakin also knows Obi. Yoda would know that as well. I think people don’t realize that both knew each other’s moves. Even in Obi had a style advantage, Yoda must have thought they were close enough where Obi woudnt get cleaved in half with his strikes. Secondly, Yoda even tells Sidious that Obi would “destroy” his new apprentice. I really don’t think Yoda would send anyone else unless he’s that sure. Logically he won’t send Obi or any Jedi on a suicide lesson

Anakin also trained with Obi. Some guides suggest BOTH knew each other’s ins and outs of fighting. Obi woudnt have a distinct advantage. He’s not conflicted though. Just out of control. But near the end it’s explicitly stated Anakin was drawing upon the dark side and becoming stronger than he normally would be. Obi not only has to be fast enough to dodge Anakins swing, but fast enough to react(Maul vs Obi). So he would be comparable in stats to someone stronger then Jedi Anakin

I think Yoda just makes it clear. Obi can handle someone Dooku coudnt. Maybe ROTS is different due to Dookus growth, but during AOTC ie the weakest on screen Dooku, Yoda has seen his best and thinks Obi can one up him

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@krisbishop:I Didn't realize that broke the terms and conditions, I'll happily not tag him though seeing as I now realize that it does break the terms and conditions but I also ask that he doesn't tag me in anything either and that he doesn't accuse me of having said something to him on an alt account which I haven't at all.

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@breakingthrones:

Anakin also knows Obi. Yoda would know that as well. I think people don’t realize that both knew each other’s moves. Even in Obi had a style advantage, Yoda must have thought they were close enough where Obi woudnt get cleaved in half with his strikes. Secondly, Yoda even tells Sidious that Obi would “destroy” his new apprentice. I really don’t think Yoda would send anyone else unless he’s that sure. Logically he won’t send Obi or any Jedi on a suicide lesson

Anakin also trained with Obi. Some guides suggest BOTH knew each other’s ins and outs of fighting. Obi woudnt have a distinct advantage. He’s not conflicted though. Just out of control. But near the end it’s explicitly stated Anakin was drawing upon the dark side and becoming stronger than he normally would be. Obi not only has to be fast enough to dodge Anakins swing, but fast enough to react(Maul vs Obi). So he would be comparable in stats to someone stronger then Jedi Anakin

I think Yoda just makes it clear. Obi can handle someone Dooku coudnt. Maybe ROTS is different due to Dookus growth, but during AOTC ie the weakest on screen Dooku, Yoda has seen his best and thinks Obi can one up him

It's true that Anakin did also know Obi but as we see in the flashbacks of the Obi Wan show when Kenobi was training Anakin, he is always able to use his knowledge of Anakin against him and gain a psychological advantage whereas Anakin has never been able to do this to Obi Wan. Yoda was in a pretty desperate situation at that point and someone had to confront Anakin. He knows that Obi Wan has a chance at beating Anakin but doesn't at beating Sidious and as he himself can match Sidious, I think that's the only choice he could make.

Anakin is definitely in a conflicted emotional state when facing Obi Wan, this is made very clear to the audience. Anakin had been drawing on the dark side for a long time though, not just at the end of their duel. He had just cut off Mace Windu's hand and been involved in the massacre at the Jedi temple including killing lots of children and then he even strangled Padme, he was pretty far into the dark side at this point but not so far that he was completely gone and this is shown in his interactions with Obi Wan. Obi Wan was a master of Soresu and he had tons of experience fighting Anakin, this is likely why he could hold Anakin off but ultimately he had to use the terrain to his advantage to beat Anakin.

Sidious wanted Dooku to test Anakin, he wanted him to not kill him and to goad him to the dark side. If Sidious wasn't involved at all and Dooku went for the kill from the start and was 1v1ing Anakin instead of having to 2v1 then he may have beaten him. Obi Wan would have no chance if he was in Dooku's position. If Obi Wan was someone that Anakin truly hated and wanted dead, someone that Anakin had 0 emotional ties to, someone that opted to use Makashi instead of Soresu, someone that was told to toy with him and goad him to the dark side, someone that had not trained him and had years of experience with him and if the fight was on the invisible hand - somewhere that Obi Wan can't keep retreating and ultimately use the terrain to his advantage then he would have lost.

As it is Obi Wan has faced Dooku twice and both times he lost pretty decisively. I do think ROTS Obi Wan vs AOTC Dooku would be closer and Obi Wan would last longer but I still think ultimately he would lose.

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#20  Edited By RandAlThor2219

Lmao at people still acting like SW characters get some wild power ups between movies, that are never mentioned or acknowledged in movies at all. Like, what's the difference between AOTC Dooku and ROTS Dooku? ROTS Dooku has already trashed ROTS Kenobi, and it wasn't because he cheated or other bs, he was just simply stronger and he wanted to fight Anakin 1v1, while Obi-Wan was a nuisance he wanted to get rid off. And there's absolutely no evidence that Obi-Wan magically grew in power right before the Mustafar duel, to the point where he can beat someone who has stomped him in that same movie. I will keep saying this, Anakin only beat Dooku because he wasn't going all out against him, only a blind man couldn't see it, he was always on the defence, never attacked, never used the Force against him and encouraged Anakin to use his hate to become stronger. As much as I love Obi-Wan, this fight goes the same way as in ROTS, only this time no Anakin to split Dooku's attention

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Living162637

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#21  Edited By Living162637

@breakingthrones:

That was padawan Anakin, who hasn’t even experienced TCW and other events. This Anakin doesn’t have that inexperience. Nor does Yoda know this

Yoda is in a desperate situation. But he explicitly tells Sidious in the Junior Novel that Obi-Wan would destroy Anakin. Yoda is not delusional and would NOT be sending Obi to a hopeless duel. He makes it very clear it is in Obis abilities to defeat Anakin. Anything else is headcanon

Anakin is stated more powerful than Dooku outside of the fight. And Yoda doesn’t know what Dooku was doing. He just knows that Anakin killed Dooku. From his perspective Anakin is Dookus superior. Dooku has bested a Obi due to style and his fear according to guides. A peak ROTS Obi vs a much weaker Dooku is very clearly Obis battle. Yoda makes this clear

Edit: guy above me seems to not remember the seven seasons of battles in the middle of that time span, where Anakin is stated to grow vastly. Characters can get massively stronger. Dooku himself is stated to be growing so fast that Sidious was a threat, and Sidious had to grow with him. Dooku is much stronger. That’s how he can hang with a Anakin who doubled in strength for a bit

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@breakingthrones:

That was padawan Anakin, who hasn’t even experienced TCW and other events. This Anakin doesn’t have that inexperience. Nor does Yoda know this

Yoda is in a desperate situation. But he explicitly tells Sidious in the Junior Novel that Obi-Wan would destroy Anakin. Yoda is not delusional and would NOT be sending Obi to a hopeless duel. He makes it very clear it is in Obis abilities to defeat Anakin. Anything else is headcanon

Anakin is stated more powerful than Dooku outside of the fight. And Yoda doesn’t know what Dooku was doing. He just knows that Anakin killed Dooku. From his perspective Anakin is Dookus superior. Dooku has bested a Obi due to style and his fear according to guides. A peak ROTS Obi vs a much weaker Dooku is very clearly Obis battle. Yoda makes this clear

We've seen the same thing even in the Obi Wan show though, Anakin has still not learned to control his emotions around Obi Wan as Vader at this point and Obi Wan managed to win the battle largely because he got in his head and because of his knowledge about Anakin. During the Mustafar duel Anakin is incredibly arrogant and allows Obi Wan to lead him to a position where has control. Anakin completely underestimates Obi Wan thinking that there is no way that he can beat him and this is demonstrated by him attempting to flip over his head and failing horribly. Obi Wan has no such arrogance and is well aware that Anakin can beat him.

Do you have the extract from the novel so I can see it please? We can't be certain of Yoda's intentions even if he did say that in the novel, Yoda may have been trying to get to Sidious and make him panic or maybe Yoda believed this but not in terms of Obi Wan being better than Anakin but because he had predicted how the fight would go in terms of Obi Wan holding Anakin off with Soresu and then beating him by outsmarting him. It's not ridiculous to think that Yoda believed Obi Wan could win because he trained Anakin and was still his master. There's simply too many factors involved to say that Yoda believed Obi Wan> Anakin, there's many other interpretations which are all plausible and much more in line with how Obi Wan actually won.

Where is Anakin stated more powerful than Dooku outside of the fight? He knows that Anakin killed Dooku but he doesn't know the contextual factors exactly. For all he knows it was Anakin + Obi Wan who defeated Dooku as they are who went after him and Anakin just dealt the killing blow.

Dooku has beaten Obi Wan with ease both times they fought, I've noted that the context comes into play but there's nothing to suggest that Obi Wan > Dooku and battles between Dooku and Obi Wan to suggest that Dooku > Obi Wan.

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#23  Edited By Living162637

@breakingthrones:

Another thing to note is that Obi and Yoda see Sidious call Anakin the most skilled Sith ever. Yet Obi is still sent.

I agree Yoda may not think he could slam Anakin. He does however think both can stand up to them. Dooku was bested easily and was described to be less powerful

This for me implies the council knew he did not defeat Dooku.

No Caption Provided

My entire basis is this. Style alone does not dictate a fight. Yoda can think Obi has a style advantage. However, the ability to withstand Anakin and his strikes or react to them and parry indicates relativity. When Ezra hits Vader, he gets overpowered because Vader is the superior striker due to Force aug

If Yoda believes Obi can withstand a DS amped Anakin and actually kill him, despite only seeing the focus of KFV and likely being briefed on the fight on the IH, he must view him as around his tier. This is backed by the fight where Anakin is using the DS and amping his strength, yet Obi after losing his fear can evade him, react to him and cut him down. Obi is still hindered by fear during his ROTS fight with Dooku. This state without fear he shows vs Grievous and at the end of Mustafar however, is peak Kenobi, who I believe beats all forms of Dooku, and is a ROTS titan by virtue of the implications he can match Anakin now

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@breakingthrones:

Another thing to note is that Obi and Yoda see Sidious call Anakin the most skilled Sith ever. Yet Obi is still sent.

I agree Yoda may not think he could slam Anakin. He does however think both can stand up to them. Dooku was bested easily and was described to be less powerful

This for me implies the council knew he did not defeat Dooku.

No Caption Provided

My entire basis is this. Style alone does not dictate a fight. Yoda can think Obi has a style advantage. However, the ability to withstand Anakin and his strikes or react to them and parry indicates relativity. When Ezra hits Vader, he gets overpowered because Vader is the superior striker due to Force aug

If Yoda believes Obi can withstand a DS amped Anakin and actually kill him, despite only seeing the focus of KFV and likely being briefed on the fight on the IH, he must view him as around his tier. This is backed by the fight where Anakin is using the DS and amping his strength, yet Obi after losing his fear can evade him, react to him and cut him down. Obi is still hindered by fear during his ROTS fight with Dooku. This state without fear he shows vs Grievous and at the end of Mustafar however, is peak Kenobi, who I believe beats all forms of Dooku, and is a ROTS titan by virtue of the implications he can match Anakin now

I always appreciate a well put together argument, so nice one. I'll try and address each of your points.

Regarding your first point:

Another thing to note is that Obi and Yoda see Sidious call Anakin the most skilled Sith ever. Yet Obi is still sent.

I agree Yoda may not think he could slam Anakin. He does however think both can stand up to them.

When Sidious says "You have done well, my new apprentice. Do you feel your power growing?" and then "Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you" this seems a lot to me like part of Sidious's grooming process, he wants Anakin to feel like turning to the dark side has made him so, so powerful and is bigging him up so that he feels rewarded and inflating his ego ( part of the very thing that gets the better of him vs Obi Wan). Sidious also says to Anakin "Now, go and and bring peace to the Empire" and we know that he is lying to Anakin here, just like he lies to Anakin about Padme. Sidious often lies to Anakin and tells him exactly what he wants to hear.

Now I agree there is some truth to this statement and Sidious is telling some truth- Anakin is more powerful at this stage then Sith such as Darth Maul (who Obi Wan is only on par with yet can beat Anakin? Again pointing to the great amount of circumstance involved in his victory vs Anakin) and Sidious has just seen Anakin beat Dooku. Sidious wouldn't think that Anakin was more skilled then Dooku though because he beat him through brute force, and power not skill. " skills are unmatched by any Sith before you" would also include Sidious himself and I doubt Sidious would actually mean that when he has said things like " Lord Vader will become more powerful than either of us" ( meaning that he isn't that powerful yet) and " a boy who's powers almost rivalled my own" ( again meaning that Sidious doesn't yet think that Anakin is that powerful. Now yes that does refer to power and not skill necessarily but skill in a lightsaber duel is an important part of one's overall power set. We also know that Sidious knows all 7 lightsaber forms and we have seen how skilled he is with a lightsaber so it seems very unlikely that he is actually telling Anakin the truth when he is one of those " Sith before you".

Sidious is also fully aware of Anakin's potential so he may be thinking ahead when referring at all to his skill and/or power.

Even if we assume that Sidious actually believes that Anakin is the most skilled Sith ever, we have no reason to believe that Yoda actually believes this. Yoda was involved in training and sparring Anakin (and Obi Wan) and Sidious wasn't, so maybe he knows that Anakin isn't as skilled as Sidious claims and that Obi Wan does stand a chance. I think that Yoda was in a pretty desperate position and he knew that he had to send someone and A) there was no one else available and B) Yoda probably knew that Obi Wan was inferior but that he also certain advantages like training Anakin, being able to hold him off with Soresu and being a smart fighter that balanced things out enough.

Dooku was bested easily and was described to be less powerful

Where is this from exactly, What's the source material for this? So the key part of this is "Little does Dooku know Darth Sidious has other plans; a new, younger, more powerful apprentice set to turn to the dark side. After an epic duel, young Anakin easily bests Dooku, literally disarming him in the process"

Sidious could be talking about Anakin's potential when he says a more powerful apprentice, after all a Sith apprentice is a long term investment for the rule of 2 and Sidious knows that in the long run Anakin would be far more powerful than Dooku and thus is the better investment based on his potential and his youth.

The following part does say that Anakin easily bested Dooku but only after an epic duel. I've also described the factors involved in Anakin's victory such as Dooku not initially being allowed to kill him and trying to goad him to the dark side. Dooku doesn't use force lightning or anything similar that was effective on Anakin during their fights in the CW likely for this reason and by the time Dooku realizes that he needs to go 100% vs Anakin to win then it is too late as Anakin is in his face hammering away at him and he simply has no time to use the force on him and he's let Anakin build up his power. Obi Wan simply wouldn't fight Dooku this way, he would go on the defensive and that would allow Dooku to use the force on him - as he has done previously and this time Anakin isn't there to help when Obi Wan is incapacitated.

This for me implies the council knew he did not defeat Dooku.

Regarding this, " despite his failure to take Dooku into captivity " I don't take that to mean that they knew Obi Wan wasn't involved in defeating Dooku, rather I think they mean that he failed to bring him into captivity because Anakin killed him lol. And they may not know that Obi Wan wasn't actually involved in getting Dooku into a position where Anakin could deliver the fatal strike.

In that same quote they say this " Obi Wan is the only person skilled enough to capture the elusive and dangerous General Grevious on Utapu".

Here are the following reasons why Obi Wan was sent to fight General Grevious ;

Mace Windu wanted to convince the Chancellor (and his lackeys) that they didn't have that many Jedi at their disposal, that their Temple was largely unguarded and that they were reluctant to send a non-Master to face given Grievous, given his propensity for killing Jedis. Their aim was to tempt the mysterious Darth Sidious into taking precipitous action against the Jedi.

“It may not be enough,” Mace Windu said. “Let us take this one step farther - we should appear shorthanded, and weak, giving Sidious an opening to make a move he thinks will go unobserved. I’m thinking that perhaps we should let the Chancellor’s Office know that Yoda and I have both been forced to take the field

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

In reality, they also wanted to keep Anakin on the planet (to spy on the Chancellor and to bulk out any physical defence of the Temple that was required) and to keep as many senior Jedi as possible on Coruscant in case the Chancellor decided to disband the Jedi Order and they needed to arrest him.

“I believe we all agree on that,” Anakin said briskly. “Let’s move to the operational planning. The Chancellor has requested that I lead this mission, and so I-“

“The Council will decide this,” Mace said sternly. “Not the Chancellor.”

“Dangerous, Grievous is. To face him, steady minds are needed - Masters, we should send.”

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

and

“Given the strain on our current resources,” Mace Windu said, “I recommend we send only one Jedi - Master Kenobi.”

Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar - both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced - here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move. Not to mention Anakin, who was a brigade’s worth of firepower in his own right.

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

There's also a certain element of "screw-you" in the council's deliberations. Palpatine asked for Anakin to lead the hunt, so they intentionally picked someone else.

It didn’t help that Chancellor Palpatine had recommended Anakin for the job. Doesn’t the Chancellor realize how awkward it is for Anakin to come into the Council and say, “The Chancellor wants me to lead the attack?” It makes him sound arrogant, when he’s just passing on Palpatine’s requests. But the Chancellor wasn’t likely to listen to Obi-Wan’s advice on how to handle Anakin Skywalker.

Revenge of the Sith: Junior Novel

I did take this from another source; a question on why Obi Wan was sent that someone had answered but this was a crucial part of forming my own knowledge base on the matter so it felt appropriate, also this:

"General Grevious' modus operandi in lightsaber combat was overwhelm his opponents with brute speed and force. His saber technique was attacking an enemy with a never ending series of strikes from his multiple limbs which many Jedi couldn't compete with because they had no counter.

Why Obi-Wan was sent to defeat Grevious was because his own technique was a perfect counter to the cyborg generals relentless assaults. Obi-Wan used Soresu form which was a purely defensive lightsaber form that involved holding your ground until your opponent tires out from trying to strike you. This meant Grevious could never get through Obi-Wand defensives because his attacks were always blocked.

To answer your question Obi-Wan was sent alone was because he was the perfect candidate for the mission due him being one of the few Jedi who could hope to stand against Grevious alone. Any other Jedi would have been killed as their forms just weren't as specialised in defence as Obi-Wan was and would have needlessly been killed since Grevious has taken on multiple Jedi at once and won."

All in all we can see that Obi Wan was sent to fight Grevious not because he was the best Jedi but because he was one of the only ones they could spare and because his mastery of Soresu was perfect for holding off Grevious. Even then Obi Wan didn't destroy Grevious and ended up having to kill him with a blaster. Infact they were fairly evenly matched and let's not forget that Dooku > General Grevious and he doesn't have Soresu to use to counter him.

My entire basis is this. Style alone does not dictate a fight. Yoda can think Obi has a style advantage. However, the ability to withstand Anakin and his strikes or react to them and parry indicates relativity. When Ezra hits Vader, he gets overpowered because Vader is the superior striker due to Force aug

It's not about him having a style advantage over Anakin really, it's about Obi Wan hoping that he can use Soresu to hold out long enough against Anakin's onslaught to tire him or beat him through other means which is exactly what happens. Obi Wan had 0 chance of going on the attack vs Anakin and actually winning. As soon as Dooku saw that Obi Wan had mastered Soresu he just ragdolled him and that's possibly what he would do again to him. But yeah I'm not saying that Dooku could 100% just ragdoll Kenobi because there are contextual factors involved in that.

Anakin is >> Obi Wan, Vader is >>>>>>>>> Ezra so it's not really comparable. Also the last time I checked Ezra had no mastery of Soresu?

If Yoda believes Obi can withstand a DS amped Anakin and actually kill him, despite only seeing the focus of KFV and likely being briefed on the fight on the IH, he must view him as around his tier. This is backed by the fight where Anakin is using the DS and amping his strength, yet Obi after losing his fear can evade him, react to him and cut him down. Obi is still hindered by fear during his ROTS fight with Dooku. This state without fear he shows vs Grievous and at the end of Mustafar however, is peak Kenobi, who I believe beats all forms of Dooku, and is a ROTS titan by virtue of the implications he can match Anakin now

The darkside may amp Anakin but it also makes him arrogant and impatient. In one of the Vader comics Anakin recalls the fight and thinks about how he would not try and take the high ground from Obi Wan but he would instead use the force on the lava and pour it over him. This is the sort of clear headdness and tactical thinking that Anakin was completely devoid of during this fight. Yoda is an avatar of the light so he is certainly going to think that the light will overcome the dark. Yoda only really realizes how bad things are for the jedi whilst dueling Sidious and about how they have truly lost. Up until that point Yoda himself was kind of arrogant and still thought they could save the jedi order so it's not too farfetched to think that that he believed Obi Wan could overcome Anakin as a light side user. As I said earlier, we also don't know exactly what Yoda knows about the events on the IH but we do know that Yoda has no other choice but to send Obi Wan.

Obi Wan was conflicted too, for sure. But unlike Anakin, Obi Wan was able to not be controlled by his emotions. Obi Wan was well aware of how dangeous Anakin was but Anakin didn't even think Obi Wan was anywhere near his power level and underestimated him constantly. Part of Soresu is being able to do defensive maneuvers such as those though. Anakin also isn't anywhere near as fast in combat as people like Yoda and Sidious; in the novel when he sees Sidious fight Mace it's just a blur that he can only keep track of at all with the force. As well as simply trying to defend against Anakin which is easier for him then actually trying to go on the attack ( which would have ended horribly for him) he also trained Anakin and knows a lot of the moves he is going to try. Obi Wan spends most of the fight trying to lead Anakin to where he wants him and succeeding and Anakin is having to chase him down. If they fought on the IH then Anakin would ultimately overwhelm him and kill him. If Dooku had mastery of Soresu as well as having tons of experience fighting with Anakin then he would have lasted a lot longer in their duel as well.

In conclusion, I think AOTC Dooku would beat Obi Wan in a good fight.

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Greysentinel365

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#25  Edited By Greysentinel365

If we're talking Legends then there's no debate to be had. Kenobi outright matched a more powerful version of a character who made Dooku in his prime look like a joke.

Dooku grows leagues upon leagues more powerful from AotC to RotS. Hell his RotS iteration is above his Vjun amp which everyone loves to wank.

In other words Kenobi effortlessly claps. Make it RotS Dooku and there's a slight conversation to be had.