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#151 Edited by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Since we have quotes confirming Vader to be more powerful then Anakin we have to assume Lucas was referring to potential. If not then we're assuming he actively contradicted canon. Considering the basis of Legends continuity depends on the fans acknowledging that the arbiters of canon understand continuity and are making additions that fit in with material established prior to new releases we must assume that officials like Lucas were not contradicting themselves and simply neglected to clarify their statement.

Yes, and?

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#153 Posted by NotSoSlimReaper (42 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: While I find myself in agreement with your stance that this fight is in no way a stomp in either combatant's favor, the quotes you used to support your view that Vader has greater applicable power than Anakin are not concrete. Your quotes seem to be character opinion and therefore subjective in nature, making them more fallible than the objective out of universe statements, I believe some where posted earlier in this thread, proclaiming that Vader experienced a decline in overall combative ability. Additionally, two of the posted quotes seem to make the comparison between Vader and Anakin with the duel on Mustafar in mind, so to extrapolate these quotes to apply to Anakin in a saner state of mind has little basis. To continue to debate which one truly holds an edge in applicable power, it would honestly be best to compare their individual feats and accolades they possess independent of each other. Otherwise, I find your stance against the majority opinion to be both admirable and entertaining and I look forward to seeing more of your posts in this thread.

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#154 Edited by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@notsoslimreaper: While I find myself in agreement with your stance that this fight is in no way a stomp in either combatant's favor, the quotes you used to support your view that Vader has greater applicable power than Anakin are not concrete. Your quotes seem to be character opinion and therefore subjective in nature, making them more fallible than the objective out of universe statements, I believe some where posted earlier in this thread, proclaiming that Vader experienced a decline in overall combative ability.

Fair point but then Vader and Obi Wan would know their own capabilities better then anybody and are of course able to sense the power of another Force user. Since they have no reason to lie when making these statements and logically they would know each other's capabilities like the back of their hand it makes me inclined to believe they are accurate. The quote was that Vader was "a shadow of his former self" which we know is true in regards to Force potential. While a third person statement would indeed hold more authority then the in universe statements of Ben and Vader I don't see why it has to refer solely to overall combative ability/employable power or why we would assume that it does when it would create an in universe inconsistency to do so.

Additionally, two of the posted quotes seem to make the comparison between Vader and Anakin with the duel on Mustafar in mind, so to extrapolate these quotes to apply to Anakin in a saner state of mind has little basis. To continue to debate which one truly holds an edge in applicable power, it would honestly be best to compare their individual feats and accolades they possess independent of each other. Otherwise, I find your stance against the majority opinion to be both admirable and entertaining and I look forward to seeing more of your posts in this thread.

The RotJ quote is encompassing any point in his life IIRC. Agreed on the ANH quote. I would also be fine simply comparing the two's respective feats as Starkiller outclasses Anakin in that arena as well.

Thank you for the compliment. :)

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#155 Edited by NotSoSlimReaper (42 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: It's true that the "shadow of his former self" quote could be solely in reference to Vader's lost potential, but the context of the quote leads one to conclude otherwise. The quote, as mentioned in Fightsaber, was pulled from an excerpt discussing Vader's second confrontation with Obi Wan, so it would presumably be in reference to their combative abilities.

With regards to the ROTJ quote, while it's true that Vader of all beings should be capable of properly assessing his power, a common theme throughout the Star Wars mythos is the Sith obsession with the Dark Side of the force and their propensity for deluding themselves into thinking that it makes them more powerful than they actually are. For this reason alone, any comparison Vader makes between his power as a Sith and his power as a Jedi is dubious at best.

On topic (Anakin vs Starkiller), I would be happy to debate you in favor of Anakin sometime in the near future. I am currently without a PC and therefore would rather not engage in an extended debate at the moment (if you would like to continue our mild discussion here, that's fine), but given a month or so I should be up for a good debate.

Apologies for the formatting and your welcome. :)

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#156 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@notsoslimreaper: It may or may not have been. As mentioned because of both Vader and Obi Wan's statements it leads me to believe it was referencing other areas.

I really don't think that's the case. While it's true characters are often corrupted by the Darkside in a quest for power they are often rewarded with visible growth in this area upon such falls. Vader doesn't seem like he's one for self delusion either having noted how much less powerful he initially was in "Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader" after losing much of his potential and assumedly employable power.

Sounds good to me.

No problem my friend. By chance, would I know you by any other name on another forum?

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#157 Posted by NotSoSlimReaper (42 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: Your interpretation of the text is valid. Mine just happens to be more valid. :)

It was not my intention to cast Vader as self-deluded, I was merely placing scrutiny on the quote in question.

It's doubtful that you recognize me from anywhere. The only other site I frequent is Reddit, and I have yet to seriously debate anyone there.

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#158 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@notsoslimreaper: Is this because of their comparative feats and that you believe such a comparison would validate the quote referencing employable power as the most likely, or is it some other reason?

I understand, though for the reasons I mentioned I feel that his self assessment would be more accurate then you'd expect from most Darksiders.

Fair enough. You have the mannerisms of a high tier debater so I was curious. I myself frequent reddit as Syndiciate.

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#159 Posted by NotSoSlimReaper (42 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: Sorry if I'm having trouble following you. I believe we were debating the meaning of the quote on hand, not if using the quote to ascertain who truly had more applicable power was valid, and thus focused solely on the context of the quote when making my interpretation. Of course, if we were debating Anakin vs Vader it would be unwise to view the quote in a vacumn, but I don't believe we are (are we?).

Fair enough.

I'm quite new to internet debating, so I'm honored that what little interactions you've had with me prompts you to peg me as a high tier debater. Feel free to compliment me more, I like it. I'll be on the lookout for you on Reddit.

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#160 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@notsoslimreaper: Nope. But one is intrinsically tied to the other. Since we AREN'T viewing the quote in a vacuum whether or not we believe Ben and Vader's assessments of each other and themselves is valid effects how we view Lucas's quote regarding Vader.

Same, what's your username on reddit?

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#161 Posted by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

Dooku was still reacting even when he had his hands cut ?! The novel pointed out enough clear that anakin overwhelmed Dooku with a mixture of strength and speed. Obi was able to parry Dooku's saber blows , but the count had also to deal with anakin. The Dooku's force attack on Obi was described as too sudden for Obi, it means that Obi hadn't the time to react. I can't see why it must be interpreted otherwise, it is pretty clear.

Who is ferus? That was only his opinion. Even Dooku thought to be more powerful than yoda, and he was wrong . Opinion can be wrong . Lucas words not .

By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star. Both are limited, Vader by his cybernetic body parts and Skywalker by his relative lack of experience dueling.

And this refers to Rotj Luke who is > ESB Luke .

I said aotc Obi was a master, not anakin .

Aotc Obi isn't > ESB Luke ?! Are you seriously questioning this ?! A 35 years old Jedi master who defeated a Sith Lord when a padawan against a boy who had only few weeks of training ?!?!

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#162 Posted by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

Rotj Luke isn't superior to Vader . Vader was seriously hindered and holding back .

Vader can have superior augmentation and superior physical strength , but he had the armor limitations !!!

This is common knowledge

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#163 Edited by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith

Vader is > anakin in the force , but only because Vader had a lot of years to master the dark side , while anakin by the time of Rots was only 23, and spent his prior life to improve more saber skills than force . He is more a swordsman , like windu , than a force user like yoda. When Lucas said that Vader is only a shadow of his prime probably meaned as overall power . The fact Vader has an edge in TK and generally in force abilities doesn't compensates his loss in sabers .

And Lucas said literally that Vader was a shadow of his prime . Anakin never achieved his full potential, so Lucas couldn't had talked about potential, because prime anakin isn't full potential anakin

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#164 Posted by NotSoSlimReaper (42 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: I apologize if the meaning of my earlier posts were unclear. I was not attempting to determine the validity of the quote (that's an entirely different topic for debate) but rather the message that the quote was intended to convey. As the views of Ben and Vader are independent of this source they have no real bearing on the meaning of the quote and are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

My reddit username is NotSoSlimReaper35.

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#165 Posted by GreatKirbysGhost (290 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know... I can waggle the Wiimote pretty fast.

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#166 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@notsoslimreaper: Well the validity isn't in question since everything Lucas says is G canon within Legends continuity and thus above everything else. I meant that what Lucas intended to convey is affected by Vader and Ben's statements as George should be taking those into account when making his own statement.

I'll be lookin' out for you.

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#167 Edited by NotSoSlimReaper (42 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: Thanks for the clarification. I find it to be illogical that character opinions would influence the thoughts of Lucas and other Star Wars authors, so this is a point we will likely end up disagreeing on.

Regardless, our discussion here turned out to be a really fun waste of time. I look forward to having future ones.

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#168 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

Dooku was still reacting even when he had his hands cut ?!

The novel pointed out enough clear that anakin overwhelmed Dooku with a mixture of strength and speed.

Obi was able to parry Dooku's saber blows , but the count had also to deal with anakin.

The Dooku's force attack on Obi was described as too sudden for Obi, it means that Obi hadn't the time to react. I can't see why it must be interpreted otherwise, it is pretty clear.

Who is ferus? That was only his opinion. Even Dooku thought to be more powerful than yoda, and he was wrong . Opinion can be wrong . Lucas words not .

By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star. Both are limited, Vader by his cybernetic body parts and Skywalker by his relative lack of experience dueling. And this refers to Rotj Luke who is > ESB Luke .

I said aotc Obi was a master, not anakin .

Aotc Obi isn't > ESB Luke ?! Are you seriously questioning this ?! A 35 years old Jedi master who defeated a Sith Lord when a padawan against a boy who had only few weeks of training ?!?!

Please quote me where I said that.

The novel shows that against Anakin in a standard state Dooku had to fall back due to Anakin's physically augmented strength but AFAIK it makes no mention of Anakin's speed overwhelming him.

In the instance I quoted you it was just Obi Wan against Dooku. Anakin was otherwise occupied at the time.

If Obi Wan is able to match Dooku's reflexes with his own then he should logically be capable of calling on the Force at around the same speeds as Dooku, wouldn't you agree?

Ferus is a former Jedi initiate who was a rival to Anakin Skywalker when they were young. And what reason would Ferus have to lie? Dooku believing himself to be more powerful then Yoda is simply pride and arrogance. Ferus is assessing the speed of an opponent and clearly stating that he's never seen anyone faster other then Yoda. If it was hyperbole then he wouldn't have added "other then Yoda" at the end of his statement. The clarification makes it clear that he's comparing Vader's observed speed to all combatants he himself has seen in action which includes Obi Wan a year after the events of RotS seeing as he fought alongside him. Lucas's word doesn't contradict Ferus's statement.

What exactly was this quote supposed to prove?

Please be sure to clarify who you're referring to next time.

Considering you're attempting to claim Anakin who has far less experience then his master and who did not defeat a Sith Lord is also above Kenobi I don't see why you would take such an issue with it. Could it be your applying double standards again? Hmmmm. I wonder.

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#169 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: Thanks for the clarification. I find it to be illogical that character opinions would influence the thoughts of Lucas and other Star Wars authors, so this is a point we will likely end up disagreeing on.

Regardless, our discussion here turned out to be a really fun waste of time. I look forward to having future ones.

Ah, fair enough.

Same. :up:

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#170 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

Rotj Luke isn't superior to Vader . Vader was seriously hindered and holding back .

Vader can have superior augmentation and superior physical strength , but he had the armor limitations !!!

This is common knowledge

On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor's throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.

-- Return of the Jedi Junior Novelization

No Caption Provided

Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious then the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.

-- Return of the Jedi Script

Vader wasn't holding back either.

For the first time, the thought entered Vader’s consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City—not to mention the boy’s timing, which was honed to a thought’s-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

-- Return of the Jedi

But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.

-- Return of the Jedi

How does the armor limit his augmentation or physical strength?

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#171 Edited by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@ordeith

Vader is > anakin in the force , but only because Vader had a lot of years to master the dark side , while anakin by the time of Rots was only 23, and spent his prior life to improve more saber skills than force . He is more a swordsman , like windu , than a force user like yoda. When Lucas said that Vader is only a shadow of his prime probably meaned as overall power . The fact Vader has an edge in TK and generally in force abilities doesn't compensates his loss in sabers .

And Lucas said literally that Vader was a shadow of his prime . Anakin never achieved his full potential, so Lucas couldn't had talked about potential, because prime anakin isn't full potential anakin

If Vader is a superior Force user then that means he'll have logically superior augmentation. Since he possesses all the lightsaber knowledge and experience he had as Anakin plus what he gained as Vader his skills should also logically be better. I don't see then how he could be worse in sabers.

Sorry, you lost me at the end there. Lucas never said what Vader was a shadow of his former self in regards to. Given other preexisting quotes and the fact that Lucas emphasizes Anakin's lost potential it seems likely that this is what he'd be referring to.

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#172 Posted by Gotoucanario (1525 posts) - - Show Bio

Doomsday wrecks

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#173 Posted by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

What? The quote says that both Vader and Luke are limited. Vader by his mechanical parts and Luke by his relative lack of dueling experience.

What re you saying ? I have only said aotc kenobi >>> ESB Luke , by feats and common sense .

Anakin >= Dooku who clowned aotc kenobi while toying . Also Vader was toying with ESB Luke , but he got hurt . How could Vader be at least at dooku's level in sabers by feats ?!?!

And you have jumped the part where I said that Rotj Luke had trouble with fodder Luke jabba's guards , getting hurt at his mechanical hand. This suggest he is lacking of skill at that point

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#174 Posted by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

Maybe Vader was trying to convince himself that he would kill his son, but in his subconscious he was already struggling to refuse the dark side... even when Luke talked to him to endor he was dubious. But these considerations are my opinion . However that duel remains circumstantial.

I have already proved vader's armor limited him . Not in physical strength , but for sure in agility

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#175 Posted by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

YOU say that he is better . There isn't any source attesting it . He was limited from the armor :

He was more powerful by far, but the plastoid armor made for awkward maneuvering. And he would never reclaim the physical grace he'd had as Anakin.

This must be enough . I took it from the part where Vader killed ferus

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#176 Edited by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@ordeith:

What? The quote says that both Vader and Luke are limited. Vader by his mechanical parts and Luke by his relative lack of dueling experience.

What re you saying ? I have only said aotc kenobi >>> ESB Luke , by feats and common sense .

Anakin >= Dooku who clowned aotc kenobi while toying .

Also Vader was toying with ESB Luke , but he got hurt . How could Vader be at least at dooku's level in sabers by feats ?!?!

And you have jumped the part where I said that Rotj Luke had trouble with fodder Luke jabba's guards , getting hurt at his mechanical hand. This suggest he is lacking of skill at that point

And?

Tell me why scoring a hit on ESB Vader is worse then losing to a Dooku who's not going all out.

And?

Which shows Luke's superiority to Obi Wan since he actually managed to land a hit on a superior opponent while Obi Wan just straight up defeated. Vader is above Anakin and therefore above Dooku.

His ability to deflect blaster bolts obviously isn't related to his ability to duel another lightsaber wielding opponent given his fight with Vader.

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#177 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

Maybe Vader was trying to convince himself that he would kill his son, but in his subconscious he was already struggling to refuse the dark side... even when Luke talked to him to endor he was dubious. But these considerations are my opinion . However that duel remains circumstantial.

I have already proved vader's armor limited him . Not in physical strength , but for sure in agility

While I can respect your opinion I do have to point out that it's unsubstantiated and thus not relevant to the debate.

And I admitted that. Now would Vader's logically superior skill, experience, augmentation and baseline physicality in all areas bar agility make up for that? I think so, especially when he retooled his style to work around those limitations.

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#178 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

YOU say that he is better . There isn't any source attesting it . He was limited from the armor :

He was more powerful by far, but the plastoid armor made for awkward maneuvering. And he would never reclaim the physical grace he'd had as Anakin.

This must be enough . I took it from the part where Vader killed ferus

Vader and Ben both confirm that Vader > Anakin. The armor limits his agility, yes. Nothing else.

That's fair but then, Vader's reworked style isn't based acrobatics or physical grace.

Sorry, what are you saying here?

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#179 Posted by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

Vader and Ben confirm what ?

Fightsaber says that both are shadow of their former self. Obi was an 8 in Rots , when in his prime . He is arguably weaker in anh, and Vader had issues fighting him . He was a bit cautious, ok , but not hindered like on mustafar . Vader improved between anh and rotj , but nothing indicate that in Rotj he reached anakin level , who is a tier 9, the same tier of yoda and sidius .

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#180 Posted by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

And that is your opinion even the fact his superior augmentation, physical strength and experience make him a better swordsman than ani. You have no proofs, while I have brought feats that prove otherwise.

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#181 Posted by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

Ahaha lol now are we seriously say that a boy with few weeks of training is better than a 35 year old trained Jedi master ?!

My point only proves that anakin >= Dooku > Vader ,

When aotc Obi >>> esb luke , by feats and common sense .

And what ? Deflecting blaster bolts is a saber skill . If you are good in sabers , you are good to deflect blaster bolts. A great swordsman is certainly capable of deflecting blaster bolts , as shown a lot of times by SW characters

Your statement are becoming ridiculous.

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#182 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: Please go back and edit in what you're responding to because as far as I can tell your first post is responding to my last one. We don't need this thread getting any messier then it already is.

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#183 Posted by Azronger (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin turns him to mush.

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#184 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (1013 posts) - - Show Bio

I understand that a year ago people overrated Starkiller, but now? Seriously?

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#185 Edited by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith:

The last three posts before your last are my last response . Posts number 179-180-181

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#186 Posted by Azronger (2375 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin smashes

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#187 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger said:

Anakin turns him to mush.

Do you have anything actually worthwhile to add?

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#188 Edited by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@ordeith:

The last three posts before your last are my last response . Posts number 179-180-181

Not what I meant. Your first post ( post 179 ) seems to be responding to my last one ( post 178 ) despite that not being in the right chronological order. I just want to be sure I'm responding to the correct counters. Tag me once you've quoted what you're responding to in your posts.

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#189 Edited by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@thespartanb345t said:

I understand that a year ago people overrated Starkiller, but now? Seriously?

Seriously, what? Do you have something to say here?

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#190 Edited by Azronger (2375 posts) - - Show Bio
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#191 Posted by TheMuser (1694 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:
@thespartanb345t said:

I understand that a year ago people overrated Starkiller, but now? Seriously?

Seriously, what? Do you have something to say here?

I would be cautious when debating Ordeith, hes quite good. Not that I agree with him mind.

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#192 Edited by PenguinLover (247 posts) - - Show Bio

I back Anakin in this battle. Superior lightsaber combatant and comparable, if not superior, Force abilities as of his fall. Pre-fall Anakin wins with extreme difficulty, post-fall Anakin wins with moderate.

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#193 Posted by freesid_stf123 (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:

@freesid_stf123: Mind elaborating on that position?

I just now saw this in my inbox.

Well, Anakin fighting at his absolute best, basically the dooku stomper Anakin, was said a few times in the ROTS novel to be arguably the most power Jedi alive, including Yoda, and if I remember correctly, it was reffering to actualized power. I don't see Galen standing up to someone on that level and winning. I don't know if this version of Anakin is what the OP intended; I just brought it up since that would technically be Anakin's prime. I can see Galen taking out standard Anakin on the basis of greater mastery in force abilities and what not; I personally don't see him as superior to Anakin in sabers, based on me scaling him off of TFU Vader, and I don't see Vader matching Anakin in sabers at this point in time either(although personally I think he should be superior, but I can't make any case for it).

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#194 Posted by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:

@freesid_stf123: Mind elaborating on that position?

I just now saw this in my inbox.

Well, Anakin fighting at his absolute best, basically the dooku stomper Anakin, was said a few times in the ROTS novel to be arguably the most power Jedi alive, including Yoda, and if I remember correctly, it was reffering to actualized power. I don't see Galen standing up to someone on that level and winning. I don't know if this version of Anakin is what the OP intended; I just brought it up since that would technically be Anakin's prime. I can see Galen taking out standard Anakin on the basis of greater mastery in force abilities and what not; I personally don't see him as superior to Anakin in sabers, based on me scaling him off of TFU Vader, and I don't see Vader matching Anakin in sabers at this point in time either(although personally I think he should be superior, but I can't make any case for it).

And Yoda has numerous quotes placing him above Anakin during this time frame meaning we would judge them by their feats, a comparison where Yoda comes out on top.

Vader IS Anakin's superior. He may or may not be as of TFU but given it's only a few years off from a point where he is stated to have grown in power by Obi Wan I wouldn't say it's unreasonable to suggest he was by that point either.

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#195 Posted by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: 179 responded at 178, 180 at 177 and 181 at 176 . Respond in a single post, please, we are making too mess

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#196 Posted by Bane_Train (206 posts) - - Show Bio

Anakin stompage

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#197 Posted by TheSpartanB345T (1013 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: I think Anakin would win. It was a joke though.

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#198 Edited by ordeith (968 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96 said:

@ordeith: 179 responded at 178, 180 at 177 and 181 at 176 . Respond in a single post, please, we are making too mess

Sure. Though tbf you're the one that stated responding with separate posts.

@thespartanb345t said:

@ordeith: I think Anakin would win. It was a joke though.

My apologies. People like Azcouldn'tberonger make me have to question the seriousness of people's posts.

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#199 Posted by daviddv0601 (212 posts) - - Show Bio

Vader would win because he isn't a boring and painfully overrated character. Starkiller is boring and painfully overrated. Vader is much cooler and better. Vader wins.

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#200 Posted by Richard96 (1527 posts) - - Show Bio