ROS Kylo Ren vs Dark Side Villains (Gauntlet)

Ren could stop at Savage or Ventress as those go either way

@alextheboss: average jedi? Bullshit. He was a temple guard, some of the highest respected and powerful knights. And not just a temple guard but i believe a commander of the guards

Despite not getting much action a temple guard is typically on par with knights and almost masters

@richard96: just want to help you by pointing out that Opress held his own against ventress before he got his force enhancement. Granted she wasn't serious but still

@richard96:

He held off anakin and kenobi for a while, he was beating ventress, gave some trouble to dooku (albeit he was rage amped and dooku was likely unprepared for that). All this is well above Kylo’s paygrade as duelist, and performed by a pre prime Opress.

Anakin and Kenobi wanted to take him alive and all he did against Dooku and Ventress was knock them around with brute strength.

Call it little. Far better that what Kylo has shown. Opress is far physically stronger, more durable, more skilled.

Him being more durable and more skilled are both questionable. Kylo survived chewie's bowcaster which could send people flying a dozen feet, survived a tie fighter crash with no injuries, jumped inside a zillo beat and killed it from the inside, and survived a spacship crash from orbit. Skill is also arguable, but I already went over that.

Kylo would get stomped harder by maul.

He would lose, but I doubt he would be stomped.

Gallia was just able to hold him off for a while, but she then got stomped. Sheer power and brute strength is one of Opress’ best qualities, anyway.

Yes, I'm not denying Opress is powerful. I'm just saying he has no skill feats that put him above ep9 Kylo's pay grade. He beats ep 7 and 8 Kylo, but ep 9 Kylo is another story.

There were some circumstances behind it, but TCW S5 Kenobi is a far better duelist than Kylo.

What evidence is there for TCW Kenobi ever being a "far" better duelist than ep 9 Kylo?

Better I don’t say what Sidious would do to Kylo.

Sidious would toy with both of them, my point was Opress has no skill showings Kylo can't replicate.

No. They are sub lowly inquisitor level. Opress holding the advantage over Ventress while pre prime is far better.

Ventress only had one lightsaber and was at the disadvantage of having a small amount of space, which isn't good when you are an agility style fighter up against a brute force style fighter.

@hayabusa77:

average jedi? Bullshit. He was a temple guard, some of the highest respected and powerful knights.

Can I get a source saying the temple guards were some of the most powerful knights? Not that it matters, as even the best knights were fodder to the high tiers. Just look at what Plaptine did to the council members.

And not just a temple guard but i believe a commander of the guards

Do you have any evidence for this? Not that being the commander automatically makes him the strongest either.

Despite not getting much action a temple guard is typically on par with knights and almost masters

Sure, they are on par with jedi knights, who are almost all fodder to Kylo. Not seeing your point.

Characters around Kylo's level are Qui-gon, Ventress, Savage, ep1 Maul, Grievous, Fisto, ect. All of them are above the grand inquisitor.

Stops at 6, maybe pulls out a few wins based on hype and more hype. Kylo's actual showings are pretty crummy when he starts to get put up against more refined and experienced force users.

Hard stop at 7 via perceived force powers alone.

@alextheboss: Tarkin actually beat Vader in a canon comic just recently. Technically it was a draw, but your example is a poor one.. With a bit of time and knowledge I'd wager Tarkin makes it to 6 as well.. just a thought.

@richard96:

This doesn’t mean holding them off isn’t better than anything Kylo has done.

True, but due to his time period Kylo literally can't show off feats like that.

Savage was casually tanking, without even putting up a force shield, several blaster bolts. Kylo was able to survive those things via force shields.

Well yeah, if we go by actual bodies Savage is more durable than Yoda and Palpatine. Not sure why we wouldn't include the force.

What has done TROS Kylo in terms of saber combat that gives him a decisive edge on TLJ Kylo? He just beat Rey, which isn’t impressive given we cannot scale her properly, and beat his knights, which are sub lowly inquisitor level.

Rey herself has gotten a lot stronger than before, and her fight against Palpatine's guards was pretty impressive. And even though the knights of ren aren't anything too special, the moves Kylo pulled off were skillful.

TCW S5 Kenobi isn’t too far from ROTS kenobi, a tier 8 duelist which has contended with dooku in sabers. TCW Kenobi contended with grievous and maul. He is better than Kylo, period.

It's not really fair to compare them like that due to Kylo not having any worthy adversaries in his time period. Ep 6 Luke was easily TCW Kenobi tier if not higher, and Kylo is older, more experienced, had more training, and has about the same potential. From an in universe perspective, there is no reason the over 30 year old Kylo trained from birth by both Luke and Snoke shouldn't be on a similar level to ROTJ Luke, TCW Kenobi, or really anyone who isn't Yoda/Sidiouis/Vader level.

@g_race: I'm familiar with that comic. That is respect based off intelligence, not strength. My point wasn't that the grand inquisitor didn't earn the respect, it was that Vader respecting you doesn't mean you are on par with him in fighting strength. Also, I don't even remember Vader highly respecting the grand inquisitor in the first place.

@g_race said:

@alextheboss: Tarkin actually beat Vader in a canon comic just recently. Technically it was a draw, but your example is a poor one.. With a bit of time and knowledge I'd wager Tarkin makes it to 6 as well.. just a thought.

Vader was holding back in that comic, Vader was engaging at ranges much closer than he needed to and Tarkin was fooled into believing that the force "had a maximum range" limit.

@the_institution: Respectfully I’m not so sure I agree. Tarkin demonstrated although not nearly as powerful, he was clearly outsmarting Vader and it very closely secured the victory. Tarkin did wonder if there was a range limit, but that was a showing of his keen intellect I think.

@g_race: Well I can see your perspective, but I think Vader was definitely not fighting to his fullest potential.

The injuries Tarkin got on him I see as legitimate but Tarkin managing to avoid being unharmed as long as he did seems a bit plot armorish or CIS on Vader's part.

@alextheboss: intelligence is Tarkin’s strength; that’s just it.. when you are playing to win, you are playing to win. It’s a fight, you use your strength. The mongoose doesn’t fight the Cobra head on because it knows the snake has the dangerous weapons. You have to outsmart it. Doesn’t make you less, you play to win the game.

@g_race: I know, obviously Vader needs to have a reason to respect someone. My point was respect doesn't mean power, which is what the other guy was trying to imply, saying the grand inquisitor was relative to Vader, which he isn't. Vader can beat multiple of him at once.

Stops at Savage.

stops at 9

Woah

Probably makes it to snoke again. Who honestly could convincing beat dooku on just pure force power. Depends on if dooku could get to snoke before snoke goes crazy with the force. Every comic of kylo he gets more impressive with both the force and with lightsabers. Just like the OT, the movies didn’t go wacky with the lightsaber skills and I don’t think that should detract from the characters feats especially when we see them do prequel level stuff in the comics.

Padawan kylo was able to hold off 3 of Luke’s best students like he wasn’t even trying and was beating two in pure lightsabers and later beat the Ren. Now that isn’t good here as padawan Ben probably can’t compete with too many of them, but it’s showing that he isn’t super useless in sabers as people try to put at. He’s a force beast that has the light saber skills to get by.

Savage will honestly be a harder fight than ventress imo. Kylo probably can force freeze/ rag doll most of the early rounds and is too far ahead of ventress in the force imo for her superior saber skills to save her. Savage though while not as good at sabers is also a force beast with really tough physicals. Kylo might be able to get through his force barrier but it’ll be a lot more work than anyone else so far. Sabers probably goes to savage too, who only really got worse at sabers as the seasons went on funnily enough.

If he can get past savage (already stated why he gets past ventress) snoke is probably still too strong in the force for kylo to stand a chance.

Probably makes it to snoke again. Who honestly could convincing beat dooku on just pure force power. Depends on if dooku could get to snoke before snoke goes crazy with the force. Every comic of kylo he gets more impressive with both the force and with lightsabers. Just like the OT, the movies didn’t go wacky with the lightsaber skills and I don’t think that should detract from the characters feats especially when we see them do prequel level stuff in the comics.

Padawan kylo was able to hold off 3 of Luke’s best students like he wasn’t even trying and was beating two in pure lightsabers and later beat the Ren. Now that isn’t good here as padawan Ben probably can’t compete to many of them, but it’s showing that he isn’t super useless in sabers as people try to put at. He’s a force beast that has the light saber skills to get by.

Savage will honestly be a harder fight than ventress imo. Kylo probably can force freeze/ rag doll most of the early rounds and is too far ahead of ventress in the force imo for her superior saber skills to save her. Savage though while not as good at sabers is also a force beast with really tough physicals. Kylo might be able to get through his force barrier but it’ll be a lot more work than anyone else so far. Sabers probably goes to savage, who only really got worse at sabers as the seasons went on funnily enough.

If he can get past savage (already stated why he gets past ventress) snoke is probably still too strong in the force for kylo to stand a chance.

I have Savage above Ventress due to rage boosts. He will probably overcome Savage due to speed and the fact that Savage is a mindless brute most of the time but he dies at Snoke.

What? How are they in anyway disproven by Anakin beating him? Anakin is a prodigy, and is one of the most powerful jedi of his time. If anything it's a feat for Anakin considering how powerful he had become by ROTS. Having a style advantage isn't going to help when Dooku is a vastly more skilled saber user. Nothing Kylo has done shows that he is anywhere near Dooku's tier in duelling, let alone his superior. You're going to have to do better than saying Kylo uses the same style as Anakin if you want to say that he's better than Dooku.

Stops at seven or eight

I lol'd at people saying that Kylo is equal to ROTS Anakin because their fighting styles look similar.

Anyways, Kylo isn't quite as bad a duelist as people say he is, but I honestly see him start to struggle in sabers when we hit round 2 or 4, not to mention characters like Savage and Asajj. All he's really got in his corner is raw power, and that's only gonna go so far against such experienced duelists.

I'd say he gets to 5, maybe 6 if he just TK nukes her. I don't see him winning against Snoke given he was clearly portrayed as inferior in Force power to him, and the idea of him taking on 8,9 or 10 and doing anything to them is frankly silly.

7

Potentially stops at 7 who MIGHT be able to ragdoll, but defeats 8 about half the time.

I have ROS Ben around ROTS Anakin and ROTJ Luke, with Luke being the best in the Force, Anakin in Sabers, and Ben falling in the middle ground in both categories. Just my opinion tho.

As far as pure dueling goes he stalemates The Seventh Sister, gets butchered by GI.

All out? Krell absolutely massacres him.

Stops at 7 .

How does he defeat Dooku half the time?? Dooku's is far superior in sabers, and is also arguably better in the force. Ben's force will carry him quite well in this gauntlet but he definitely stops when he starts facing opponents superior or similar in terms of force power to him.

@red12789: Dooku isnt similar or even arguably better with force powers in canon though. In terms of like, Finesse/Skill? Yea. But in terms of raw power, its not close, and Anakin defeated him using overwhelming power. I often see Canon dooku rated much better than his peers due to statements, but by feats he is on the mid-level of the 8s, not the high end.

While Dooku is better in Sabers, I dont think the margin is large enough for him to dominate the fight solely due to that category. I think original trilogy and prequel era characters are underrated in sabers, due to technical limitations (originals) and choreography (sequels)

Hasn't Dooku overwhelmed and fodderised Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ventress and Savage before in the force? I feel his force powers are comparable and maybe even better than Kylo's, especially since we haven't seen Kylo ragdoll or even overwhelm other respectable force sensitives with the force. Kylo's raw power isn't enough to make up for his skill gap and speed gap. Anakin was also comparable to Dooku in skill and speed, which allowed him to abuse his massive physical strength.

We have also seen Kylo's slow but heavy strikes and cleaves be easily avoided by opponents such as Rey, and he seems to struggle as soon as he's put on the defensive and is forced to back off. Dooku is considerably better and much more experienced than Kylo at the very least, contending with the likes of Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Kenobi, Ventress, Savage, Quinlan Vos and so on while Kylo struggled with Finn, an untrained Rey and Snoke's guards.

I'm gonna say he stops at Savage Opress.

When two Knights of Ren tried to ragdoll Kylo, they couldn't overpower him. Thus, he is more powerful than the combined Force of at least 2 Knights, who could be around Inquisitor level. So I think he wins rounds 1-2 through power abuse. Maybe 4. Loses 3 and all other rounds.

My opinion has changed ever so slightly recently.

Kylo kills Seventh Sister in R1

Kylo dies in sabers to the GI in R2

Krell massacres him and he loses everything else

@richard96: kylo clears idiot

He encounters serious problems in Sabers against The Grand Inquisitor. In All-Out fights, Ren has a hard time against Momin too. Definitely stops at Savage Opress.

He get stomp at 1

Stops at 8

Stops at Snoke

He probably stops at 7 or 8.