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#1 Edited by Leo-343 (30909 posts) - - Show Bio
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Zoro

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Midnighter

- Wildstorm Midnighter

- Current Zoro

- Morals off

- Standard gear for both, doors for Midnighter, Haki for Zoro

- Win by death

- No prep, basic intel

- Takes place in a forest

Round 2- No doors, only precog Haki.

Who wins and why?

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#2 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

Zoro 9/10

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#3 Posted by ComicStooge (22063 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter for a solid majority.

Zoro 9/10

How?

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#4 Posted by hatemalingsia (15494 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter.

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#5 Posted by vintage_spiderman (6541 posts) - - Show Bio

Could haki knockout Midnighter

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#6 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio
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#7 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter for a solid majority.

I don't think Midnighter can even react to Zoro, although I'm not exactly a Midnighter expert. Even if he can, I'm sure that Midnighter couldn't put Zoro down.

I'm gonna go ahead and say this is a mismatch.

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#8 Posted by Leo-343 (30909 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Midnighter has blitzed speedsters before, his battle computer is a huge asset as well, I think this is a good fight.

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#9 Posted by ComicStooge (22063 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

Midnighter for a solid majority.

I don't think Midnighter can even react to Zoro, although I'm not exactly a Midnighter expert. Even if he can, I'm sure that Midnighter couldn't put Zoro down.

I'm gonna go ahead and say this is a mismatch.

You're aware Midnighter has reacted to speedsters and knocked out heralds on a regular basis back in his Wildstorm, right? He busted Apollo's eardrums and Apollo could withstand the force of 10 nuke's to the head after being smacked around by a rouge Doctor.

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#10 Edited by ComicStooge (22063 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge: Against a morals off Zoro? Off with his head.

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How though? Midnighter's reacted to speedters like Impetus, danced around Jack Hawksmoor (who can tag speedters and avoid gunfire himself) and has doen stuff like avoid Apollo's heat vision. He's easily fast enough to contend and he's got striking feats against people who would solo the OP universe.

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#11 Edited by thatguywithheadphones (19859 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Edited by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@comicstooge said:

Midnighter for a solid majority.

I don't think Midnighter can even react to Zoro, although I'm not exactly a Midnighter expert. Even if he can, I'm sure that Midnighter couldn't put Zoro down.

I'm gonna go ahead and say this is a mismatch.

You're aware Midnighter has reacted to speedsters and knocked out heralds on a regular basis back in his Wildstorm, right? He busted Apollo's eardrums and Apollo could withstand the force of 10 nuke's to the head after being smacked around by a rouge Doctor.

You're aware that I didn't ask about strength because I'm already aware that Midnighter is strong, right? I asked about speed, Midnighter might be able to react to a speedster charging at him in a kneejerk sort of way, but Zoro's actual combat speed is that of a speedster.

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#13 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity said:

@comicstooge: Against a morals off Zoro? Off with his head.

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How though? Midnighter's reacted to speedters like Impetus, danced around Jack Hawksmoor (who can tag speedters and avoid gunfire himself) and has doen stuff like avoid Apollo's heat vision. He's easily fast enough to contend and he's got striking feats against people who would solo the OP universe.

Your knowledge of One Piece seems to be lacking.

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#14 Posted by ComicStooge (22063 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

@mr_ingenuity said:

@comicstooge: Against a morals off Zoro? Off with his head.

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How though? Midnighter's reacted to speedters like Impetus, danced around Jack Hawksmoor (who can tag speedters and avoid gunfire himself) and has doen stuff like avoid Apollo's heat vision. He's easily fast enough to contend and he's got striking feats against people who would solo the OP universe.

Your knowledge of One Piece seems to be lacking.

Unless anyone in OP can sit in the sun and take moon-busting punches like Winter can, I think I know enough.

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#15 Posted by Nefarious (35649 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter's hax ability grants him the win.

Off with Zoro's head.

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#16 Posted by nickzambuto (29288 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@comicstooge said:

@mr_ingenuity said:

@comicstooge: Against a morals off Zoro? Off with his head.

No Caption Provided

How though? Midnighter's reacted to speedters like Impetus, danced around Jack Hawksmoor (who can tag speedters and avoid gunfire himself) and has doen stuff like avoid Apollo's heat vision. He's easily fast enough to contend and he's got striking feats against people who would solo the OP universe.

Your knowledge of One Piece seems to be lacking.

Unless anyone in OP can sit in the sun and take moon-busting punches like Winter can, I think I know enough.

But your listing street level speed feats against one of the strongest pirates in the world.

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#17 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

How though? Midnighter's reacted to speedters like Impetus, danced around Jack Hawksmoor (who can tag speedters and avoid gunfire himself) and has doen stuff like avoid Apollo's heat vision. He's easily fast enough to contend and he's got striking feats against people who would solo the OP universe.

Midnighter reacting to speedsters is great, but Zoro isn't a speedster. So the question is can midnighter kill Zoro with range or close the distance. I'm not convinced of either. Zoro is a ranged AOE fighter that has hypersonic reaction time. Which means the sound of midnighter saying Door is far too slow.

Midnighters greatest asset isn't that he can hit hard but every hit counts. I don't see the relevance of those characters soloing the OPverse.

(Ch 754) Zoro cuts the Pica Statue in half. This should be a city level cut at least.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

Here are scans for size comparison. The visible structures on Pica's arm are mansions.

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.

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#18 Posted by vintage_spiderman (6541 posts) - - Show Bio
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#19 Posted by Leo-343 (30909 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by ComicStooge (22063 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

@nickzambuto said:

@comicstooge said:

Midnighter for a solid majority.

I don't think Midnighter can even react to Zoro, although I'm not exactly a Midnighter expert. Even if he can, I'm sure that Midnighter couldn't put Zoro down.

I'm gonna go ahead and say this is a mismatch.

You're aware Midnighter has reacted to speedsters and knocked out heralds on a regular basis back in his Wildstorm, right? He busted Apollo's eardrums and Apollo could withstand the force of 10 nuke's to the head after being smacked around by a rouge Doctor.

You're aware that I didn't ask about strength because I'm already aware that Midnighter is strong, right? I asked about speed, Midnighter might be able to react to a speedster charging at him in a kneejerk sort of way, but Zoro's actual combat speed is that of a speedster.

Given that Midnighter casually avoids lasers, I'd say he can keep up in combat.

He avoids a homing laser beam right in front of his face:

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Avoids Apollo's laser vision (Apollo can tag spaceships moving at hypersonic re-entry speeds)

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Avoids an energy beam from Captain Atom:

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And he avoided laser beams from a woman with neural enhancements that allowed her to never miss a target:

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In any case, Dawn had similar enhancements to Apollo and Midnighter kept up with her in combat just fine:

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#21 Posted by Doom_Phd (1567 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter kicked a tank shell, Zorro lives in a world that uses 18th century guns.

Pretty clear that Midnighter is faster

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#22 Posted by homicidalmaniac (10895 posts) - - Show Bio

@doom_phd said:

Midnighter kicked a tank shell, Zorro lives in a world that uses 18th century guns.

Pretty clear that Midnighter is faster

Pacifistas are totally 18th century

Loading Video...

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#23 Edited by thatguywithheadphones (19859 posts) - - Show Bio
@doom_phd said:

Midnighter kicked a tank shell, Zorro lives in a world that uses 18th century guns.

Pretty clear that Midnighter is faster

No Caption Provided

It's also a world where the government mass produces super fast, laser shooting androids.

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#24 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

If dodging nebulous lasers and energy blasts put people at Zoro's level of speed then literally every freaking street leveler in DC and Marvel would be. They're obviously not, dodging lasers (much like dodging bullets, a lot of the time) is just PISy nonsense. Though, atleast Spider-man and Midnighter have a decent reason to be able to anticipate the shot no matter what and avoid it before it's fired.

But yeah Midnighter can't actually dodge something moving at lightspeed.

Note, I'm not saying Zoro is lightspeed. I'm saying that the supposition that Midnighter is as fast or faster than Zoro because he has "dodged" or "reacted to" lasers and energy blasts is stupid. It will always be stupid to use laser dodging feats for anyone without clearly ridiculous, near lightspeed super speed as a means to judge what they can actually react to and dodge.

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#25 Posted by MysticMedivh (32250 posts) - - Show Bio

@doom_phd said:

Midnighter kicked a tank shell, Zorro lives in a world that uses 18th century guns.

Pretty clear that Midnighter is faster

So much fail.

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#26 Edited by ComicStooge (22063 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

If dodging nebulous lasers and energy blasts put people at Zoro's level of speed then literally every freaking street leveler in DC and Marvel would be. They're obviously not, dodging lasers (much like dodging bullets, a lot of the time) is just PISy nonsense. Though, atleast Spider-man and Midnighter have a decent reason to be able to anticipate the shot no matter what and avoid it before it's fired.

But yeah Midnighter can't actually dodge something moving at lightspeed.

Note, I'm not saying Zoro is lightspeed. I'm saying that the supposition that Midnighter is as fast or faster than Zoro because he has "dodged" or "reacted to" lasers and energy blasts is stupid. It will always be stupid to use laser dodging feats for anyone without clearly ridiculous, near lightspeed super speed as a means to judge what they can actually react to and dodge.

Well, one laser was a tracking beam directly in front of his face so I don't think many street levers can pull that off. Midnighter's never been street level.

Ridiculous stuff happens in fiction all the time. Jack Hawksmoor also avoids lasers, dodges bullets and tags speedsters yet Midnighter chumped him just fine.

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#27 Posted by BuckshotWasHere (19547 posts) - - Show Bio

If dodging nebulous lasers and energy blasts put people at Zoro's level of speed then literally every freaking street leveler in DC and Marvel would be. They're obviously not, dodging lasers (much like dodging bullets, a lot of the time) is just PISy nonsense. Though, atleast Spider-man and Midnighter have a decent reason to be able to anticipate the shot no matter what and avoid it before it's fired.

But yeah Midnighter can't actually dodge something moving at lightspeed.

Then it's a good thing that Zoro doesn't move at lightspeed. Is there a reason that Midnighter wouldn't be able to avoid Zoro the same way he can avoid consciously controlled energy attacks despite not actually being able to move at the speed of light?

The first half of this thread is wholly without actual support, smh.

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#28 Posted by Doom_Phd (1567 posts) - - Show Bio
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#29 Posted by ComicStooge (22063 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

How though? Midnighter's reacted to speedters like Impetus, danced around Jack Hawksmoor (who can tag speedters and avoid gunfire himself) and has doen stuff like avoid Apollo's heat vision. He's easily fast enough to contend and he's got striking feats against people who would solo the OP universe.

Midnighter reacting to speedsters is great, but Zoro isn't a speedster. So the question is can midnighter kill Zoro with range or close the distance. I'm not convinced of either. Zoro is a ranged AOE fighter that has hypersonic reaction time. Which means the sound of midnighter saying Door is far too slow.

He doesn't need to say Door. He can think it.

Midnighter's faster than hypersonic. Apollo could shoot hypersonic aircrafts out of the air with heat vision, yet he couldn't hit Midnighter with it.

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#30 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot said:

@dredeuced said:

If dodging nebulous lasers and energy blasts put people at Zoro's level of speed then literally every freaking street leveler in DC and Marvel would be. They're obviously not, dodging lasers (much like dodging bullets, a lot of the time) is just PISy nonsense. Though, atleast Spider-man and Midnighter have a decent reason to be able to anticipate the shot no matter what and avoid it before it's fired.

But yeah Midnighter can't actually dodge something moving at lightspeed.

Then it's a good thing that Zoro doesn't move at lightspeed. Is there a reason that Midnighter wouldn't be able to avoid Zoro the same way he can avoid consciously controlled energy attacks despite not actually being able to move at the speed of light?

The first half of this thread is wholly without actual support, smh.

People are using the idea that Midnighter "dodged lasers" as a reason for why he would be too fast for Zoro, the assumption being that Lasers > Zoro, Midnighter > Lasers, Midnighter > Zoro. The middle part of that is the bad part because I could probably go find a laser dodging feat for any street leveler who's been in a hundred comics and it's no good very bad argument in any thread. Like, do I suddenly get to say Blink is as fast as Midnighter because she "reacted" to Hyperion's heat vision like Midnighter did Apollo's? How many times has Batman reacted to an energy blast or laser? The list goes on.

If you want to use other feats to justify Midnighter being as fast, faster than, or fast enough to keep up with Zoro then be my guest. I just hate laser/energy dodging feats on clearly sub-light reaction speed characters. Zoro's fast enough to blitz casually hypersonic enemies but that's about the area, as far as I'm aware, that Midnighter reacts to so I can't make a conclusively decision.

This idea applies to everyone. Luffy dodged some "lasers" before from Pacifistas but that doesn't make Luffy or any other One Piece character(like Zoro, who can do the very same thing) that fast. Not even the actual guy who is made of Light.

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#31 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

If dodging nebulous lasers and energy blasts put people at Zoro's level of speed then literally every freaking street leveler in DC and Marvel would be. They're obviously not, dodging lasers (much like dodging bullets, a lot of the time) is just PISy nonsense. Though, atleast Spider-man and Midnighter have a decent reason to be able to anticipate the shot no matter what and avoid it before it's fired.

But yeah Midnighter can't actually dodge something moving at lightspeed.

Note, I'm not saying Zoro is lightspeed. I'm saying that the supposition that Midnighter is as fast or faster than Zoro because he has "dodged" or "reacted to" lasers and energy blasts is stupid. It will always be stupid to use laser dodging feats for anyone without clearly ridiculous, near lightspeed super speed as a means to judge what they can actually react to and dodge.

Well, one laser was a tracking beam directly in front of his face so I don't think many street levers can pull that off. Midnighter's never been street level.

Ridiculous stuff happens in fiction all the time. Jack Hawksmoor also avoids lasers, dodges bullets and tags speedsters yet Midnighter chumped him just fine.

How fast was that laser actually going, though? Midnighter's entire freaking schtick is he knows what his opponent is going to do before they do it. He backsteps before the homing thing turns to peg him or whatever. He's not actually backstepping at literal lightspeed.

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#32 Posted by Vivide (3279 posts) - - Show Bio

observation haki makes this interesting

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#33 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@vivide said:

observation haki makes this interesting

Has Zoro displayed active use of observation Haki? He's clearly shown armament Haki.

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#34 Edited by Leo-343 (30909 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: I feel I should address the Kizaru reference. Kizaru can in fact move at light speed, certain attacks he does are light speed and the path of light he creates to move around is in fact light speed. If the people in One Piece gain the properties of their respective fruits then it makes sense for Kizaru to be as fast as light.

Looking at other Logias it's clear that they posses the abilities of their elements to the fullest, so it would actually be inconsistent and make very little sense if Kizaru WASN'T light speed.

EDIT- Zoro showed observation Haki when fighting Hody.

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#35 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicstooge said:

He doesn't need to say Door. He can think it.

Midnighter's faster than hypersonic. Apollo could shoot hypersonic aircrafts out of the air with heat vision, yet he couldn't hit Midnighter with it.

So midnighter is light speed in reaction. He still needs to cross the distance to get to Zoro be it doors or running. I sure midnighter isn't blitzing Zoro & coming out a portal still requires speed. I've shown Zoro's AOE, but no response on that.

Now I'm aware the next line of responses will focus on doors, which reinforces Midnighter wins via BFR(or some form of dooring).

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#36 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@leo-343 said:

@dredeuced: I feel I should address the Kizaru reference. Kizaru can in fact move at light speed, certain attacks he does are light speed and the path of light he creates to move around is in fact light speed. If the people in One Piece gain the properties of their respective fruits then it makes sense for Kizaru to be as fast as light.

Looking at other Logias it's clear that they posses the abilities of their elements to the fullest, so it would actually be inconsistent and make very little sense if Kizaru WASN'T light speed.

Kizaru does not have lightspeed combat speed. He can turn into light and then shoot in a direction at lightspeed, but once he gets there he's not actually moving his reformed body around at that level.

What do you mean "elements at their fullest" ? That sounds like fan fiction. Does Akainu move at the speed of lava? Does enel move at the speed of lightning? No in both instances. Akainu's much faster an Enel's much slower (Got punched by Luffy way too many times to actually be lightning speed).

This is incredibly off topic, by the by, so no, you didn't have to address the Kizaru reference.

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#37 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

Has Zoro displayed active use of observation Haki? He's clearly shown armament Haki.

Check here.

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#38 Posted by Vivide (3279 posts) - - Show Bio

Also in Dick midnighter displayed some disgusting jobbing, which is balanced out in his other showings in Stormwatch/tie-ins

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#39 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity said:

@dredeuced said:

Has Zoro displayed active use of observation Haki? He's clearly shown armament Haki.

Check here.

"Sensing a presence" is not what I mean. There's a difference between sensing a presence and actively using Observation Haki to predict the next attack that's coming. That's what I meant by active use, like the Skypeia Mantra. Sensing presences is the passive power of observation haki. Heck, I think that's something they could do before Haki was even directly introduced.

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#40 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (14705 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Wasn't trying to answer the question, relaying info.

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#41 Posted by BeaconofStrength (12489 posts) - - Show Bio

Midnighter.

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#42 Posted by BeaconofStrength (12489 posts) - - Show Bio

@vivide: Wrong version of Midnighter. They're not the same.

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#43 Posted by MysticMedivh (32250 posts) - - Show Bio

@doom_phd said:

@mysticmedivh:

2009 called and wants their meme back

Still true. So much fail. Nice comeback though.

@doom_phd said:

Midnighter kicked a tank shell, Zorro lives in a world that uses 18th century guns.

Pretty clear that Midnighter is faster

Lol.

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#44 Posted by BuckshotWasHere (19547 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot said:

@dredeuced said:

If dodging nebulous lasers and energy blasts put people at Zoro's level of speed then literally every freaking street leveler in DC and Marvel would be. They're obviously not, dodging lasers (much like dodging bullets, a lot of the time) is just PISy nonsense. Though, atleast Spider-man and Midnighter have a decent reason to be able to anticipate the shot no matter what and avoid it before it's fired.

But yeah Midnighter can't actually dodge something moving at lightspeed.

Then it's a good thing that Zoro doesn't move at lightspeed. Is there a reason that Midnighter wouldn't be able to avoid Zoro the same way he can avoid consciously controlled energy attacks despite not actually being able to move at the speed of light?

The first half of this thread is wholly without actual support, smh.

People are using the idea that Midnighter "dodged lasers" as a reason for why he would be too fast for Zoro, the assumption being that Lasers > Zoro, Midnighter > Lasers, Midnighter > Zoro. The middle part of that is the bad part because I could probably go find a laser dodging feat for any street leveler who's been in a hundred comics and it's no good very bad argument in any thread. Like, do I suddenly get to say Blink is as fast as Midnighter because she "reacted" to Hyperion's heat vision like Midnighter did Apollo's? How many times has Batman reacted to an energy blast or laser? The list goes on.

If you want to use other feats to justify Midnighter being as fast, faster than, or fast enough to keep up with Zoro then be my guest. I just hate laser/energy dodging feats on clearly sub-light reaction speed characters. Zoro's fast enough to blitz casually hypersonic enemies but that's about the area, as far as I'm aware, that Midnighter reacts to so I can't make a conclusively decision.

This idea applies to everyone. Luffy dodged some "lasers" before from Pacifistas but that doesn't make Luffy or any other One Piece character(like Zoro, who can do the very same thing) that fast. Not even the actual guy who is made of Light.

Looking at the thread, lasers aren't the first or only support for Midnighter's speed, so fighting against that as if that's all that people are saying seems limited at best, misleading in the middleground, and strawmanning at worst. And your problem with the "assumption" is what I pointed my question at. Regardless of Midnighter's actual speed his has the ability to avoid being hit by something that moves a great deal faster than Zoro, so what would stop Midnighter from also using this ability to avoid being hit by Zoro? Midnighter may not be faster than light but if he can so accurately predict attacks that he's effectively faster than those light-based attacks, what stops him from so accurately predicting Zoro's attacks so that he is just as effectively faster than what Zoro can dish out? If he's so far ahead of his attacker that the actual speed of the attack is immaterial, what saves Zoro?

I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you. Consider it like this, your post had enough in it for me to want to engage with you.

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#45 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: Dispelling one group of feats as ridiculous doesn't discredit other, unrelated feats. Did I say all his non-laser dodging feats didn't count? Don't assume anything of my argument besides what's written. If I was taking a side I'd outright state it. It's not even close to a strawman because I didn't suddenly pull the argument out of the air. Maybe if I had directly responded to someone who wasn't using the laser dodging feats with the anti-laser argument you could call it a strawman, but I was just throwing out the general statement to the thread since the point was brought up. This isn't the first time I've popped into a thread to say "Yo, laser dodging is stupid, don't use it." Just like Zoro's observation haki -- just because I was skeptical of someone stating something about Zoro's ability(and I was right, as far as I can tell, that zoro doesn't have the future prediction ability of Observation Haki) doesn't mean that I suddenly think every other point about Zoro in the thread is bunk.

If you're asking me directly what Midnighter would have a problem dodging based on my personal knowledge of the two characters (Lots of Zoro, a decent bit of Midnighter) then I don't think Midnighter would have too much trouble dodging a normal slash from Zoro's swords. The main problem would be the invisible, enormous AoE cuts. Mr. Ingenuity posted the feat of him basically cutting a mountain sized construct into nothing with a slash that was several thousand feet wide and who knows how long. I'm not sure Midnighter could move out of the way of an attack that big and fast. That's probably the most problematic thing Zoro's ever done that Midnighter would have to deal with.

The other problem would just be a matter of skill. Appropriately skilled fighters who aren't super duper fast (zealot and nemesis off the top of my head, you might know of others) have caused Midnighter problems(and I use the word "problems" loosely, as he's crushed Zealot in another showing and Nemesis was stalling and I BELIEVE she disabled his computer beforehand) before if they could keep up from an endurance stand point and levy their skill as a way to not leave openings for Midnighter to exploit (if there's 0 openings then the Battle Computer doesn't really help). Now, I know, clearly a low showing given Midnighter's history, but Zoro's obviously a lot faster and stronger (relevant for blocking hits!) than those two, and he's got pretty clearly ludicrous skill even from the outset of One Piece (literally better with a sword with his mouth than a master with their hands). His problem, in this idea, would probably be patience as Zealot had to basically make it an hours long fight with a weaponry advantage while Nemesis was just stalling before getting away. Zoro does enough wacky, nearly magical shit that it might be something out of the realms of what the Battle Computer could predict, but I admit that that is a stretch.

I don't like the effectively faster part. He's faster than the adjustment of their aim, or the charging of the blast before it fires or maybe some other abstraction, but Midnighter's not gonna suddenly outrun a beam of light from point a to b because he expects it to happen.

Don't ever worry about my feelings or whatever. There's been literally hundreds of posters ruder than you that have taken a shot at me.

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#46 Posted by BuckshotWasHere (19547 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: You've not discredited any feats and much of his other dodging feats aren't "unrelated" because the same rules apply to them and also apply to Zoro. Midnighter did in fact avoid being hit by a light-based attack. It being noted that he did that not by being faster than light but by knowing everything that would happen and being able to not ever be in the way doesn't "discredit" his feat because it in no way erases the fact that he avoided being hit by a light-based attack. The other feats aren't "unrelated" because just as Midnighter knew what would happen and how to avoid it in that instance, he knew the same in most of the other examples and would also know in a fight with Zoro. His laser dodging feats do count because they show that his ability to accurately predict and avoid attacks in combat is to such a degree that even near-instant attacks closely strung together are unable to tag him. They provide valuable information on how effective his combat computer is and how much freedom and lead time it gives him. He may not be faster than light but if he has so much lead time that the near-instant speed of light is not fast enough to overcome his head start combined with his (un)natural speed and agility, he might as well be for many practical purposes. He doesn't need to outrun light itself to avoid it and he doesn't need to be faster than Zoro to avoid him.

I think your assessment of Midnighter's interactions with Zealot and Nemesis are fair, though I'd add, just to flesh them out, that they both have skill-based move-reading abilities that would put Batgirl to shame (thanks to thousands upon thousands of years of combat and a grounding in a combat-based society where they could kill before they could speak) and Nemesis has further empathy-based precognitive abilities. So while what's normally considered skill certainly plays a large part, there are also things beyond the normal bounds of that at play as well.

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#47 Edited by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot said:

@dredeuced: You've not discredited any feats and much of his other dodging feats aren't "unrelated" because the same rules apply to them and also apply to Zoro. Midnighter did in fact avoid being hit by a light-based attack. It being noted that he did that not by being faster than light but by knowing everything that would happen and being able to not ever be in the way doesn't "discredit" his feat because it in no way erases the fact that he avoided being hit by a light-based attack. The other feats aren't "unrelated" because just as Midnighter knew what would happen and how to avoid it in that instance, he knew the same in most of the other examples and would also know in a fight with Zoro. His laser dodging feats do count because they show that his ability to accurately predict and avoid attacks in combat is to such a degree that even near-instant attacks closely strung together are unable to tag him.

Right but this same exact thing is done by literally hundreds of characters slower, less skilled, and with less ability than Midnighter. It's dumb! It will always be dumb to go "Well, they dodged a laser, and the person attacking them isn't moving at lightspeed, so they can dodge them."

Look, let me use this logic from the other side. Tell me how Midnighter will ever hit Batman. Batman has dodged Lasers dozens of times. Midnighter can't move faster than light, and something about Batman's skill and prediction ability has allowed him to effectively dodge attacks that were nearly instant! Whatever reason you could think of that Midnighter could hit Bruce, despite Bruce's laser dodging feats, could I just turn that around on you and apply it to Zoro? Something like -- Well, fighting a melee opponent is different from dodging an aimed attack with a set trajectory before it's ever fired. There's feints and tactics involved in every series of movements that changes the possible avenues of dodging or blocking. Skill combined with speed affect the fight in a different way than just shooting something that can be aim dodged or predicted before being fired. That's a reason why Midnighter, and his amazing martial skill, could hit someone like Batman who has dodged lasers.

blah blah blah jargon, the long and short of it is there is clearly a difference when two melee combatants go at each other regardless of whether they've dodged a laser or bullet or whatever before or not.

This:

They provide valuable information on how effective his combat computer is and how much freedom and lead time it gives him. He may not be faster than light but if he has so much lead time that the near-instant speed of light is not fast enough to overcome his head start combined with his (un)natural speed and agility, he might as well be for many practical purposes. He doesn't need to outrun light itself to avoid it and he doesn't need to be faster than Zoro to avoid him.

Is just a means by which you can try to explain something that's preposterous. I don't mean that as a slight or insult, it's just true that these characters dodging lasers beams is silly. The light was aimed incorrectly, obviously in no small part due to his actions before it was fired. If someone with good enough skill would have ended up with the light aimed correctly then Midnighter isn't dodging it, just like Bruce isn't, just like everyone who dodges lasers all the time, many of which who are slower and less skilled than Zoro. Midnighter is not untouchable and equating dodging lasers to a melee fight is completely nonsensical both in a logical sense and within the realms of Midnighter's own comics where he's been hit by stuff slower than light dozens upon dozens of times, not all of which were PIS.

I think your assessment of Midnighter's interactions with Zealot and Nemesis are fair, though I'd add, just to flesh them out, that they both have skill-based move-reading abilities that would put Batgirl to shame (thanks to thousands upon thousands of years of combat and a grounding in a combat-based society where they could kill before they could speak) and Nemesis has further empathy-based precognitive abilities. So while what's normally considered skill certainly plays a large part, there are also things beyond the normal bounds of that at play as well.

Yeah but it's not the only time Midnighter's been hit, those are just scenarios when he lost or stalemated against people clearly physically slower and weaker than him, again, in the lowest of the low showings. I don't think it's even unreasonable to assume that, given enough time, Zoro could hit Midnighter if Midnighter's only goal was dodging regular sword slashes. Zoro can do other ridiculous crap, as previously mentioned, that obviously greatly changes the situation. I'm not sure if Midnighter has ever dodged what is effectively an invisible magical slash through space that can pulverize mountains (I'm not sure if the Battle Computer can process or anticipate shonen BS magical willpower abilities, which is one of the reasons I didn't immediately take a side).

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#48 Posted by Funsiized (3882 posts) - - Show Bio

My initial vote would have to go to Zoro due to his insane damage soak.

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#49 Posted by vintage_spiderman (6541 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Woah, woah I agree with everything you said for the most part...but Zoro having a slash\slash shockwave capable of a pulverizing mountain lvl destruction is questionable.

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#50 Posted by Dredeuced (6441 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Woah, woah I agree with everything you said for the most part...but Zoro having a slash\slash shockwave capable of a pulverizing mountain lvl destruction is questionable.

Well, Pika's head is bigger than a hill. It's like hundreds of times the size of mansions. It's like a small mountain and Zoro didn't just pulverize it-- I was kind of underselling it. He hit it so hard there was no trace of it.