Revived RoR Tournament, Round 1: Achilles vs Freyja (Open for Votes)

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Mass

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#1  Edited By Mass

Welcome to Round One of the Revived Record of Ragnarok Tournament! Achilles vs Freyja

Every 1,000 years, gods of every pantheon convene and hold a conference to decide the fate of humanity by calling a vote to determine whether or not the human race should continue living or go extinct. With the most recent of these conferences having concluded, the gods unanimously decided to put humanity to an end. However, at the very last second, the eldest of the Valkyries, accompanied by the youngest, intervened and made the bold proposition to let humanity have a say in their fate by letting them go against the gods in a series of one-on-one fights to see if they are worthy of continuing to exist. Afraid to let go of their pride, the gods accept this proposal. Eight gods will fight against eight human champions. The last being standing will decide the fate of humanity. Will the Gods prevail and extinguish mankind or will a human champion rise up and defy the Heavens?

Representing Humanity:

Achilles, King of the Myrmidons(@zetsu-san)

No Caption Provided

Body: Akira (Devilman Crybaby)

Skillset: Phyrra Nikos (RWBY)

Special Gear: Amulet of Power (Marvel)

Powers: Ares (DC)

Representing the Gods:

Freyja, Queen of Fólkvangar (@lunacyde)

No Caption Provided

Body - Flashy Flash (OPM)

Skillset - Karate Kid (DC)

Special Gear - The Bands of Mourning and necessary metals (Mistborn)

Power - Lift (Stormlight Archive)

Guidelines:

  • Body (your body will only have the character's stats, not their skills or special powers)
  • Skillset (martial arts, marksmenship, swordsmenship, etc...)
  • Special Gear (Batman's Utility Belt, Armors, Weapons, Accessories, etc...)
  • Power (magic, ki, superpowers, etc...)

Limits:

  • Multi-continental Level Strength and DC
  • Lightspeed movement and reaction speed
  • Durability Multi-continental+

Banned and restricted powers:

  • No Instant Death abilities
  • No unavoidable attacks
  • No offensive telepathy
  • No telefrag
  • BFR only lasts for 10 seconds
  • No attacking while Intangible
  • Clones limited to 3 at a time
  • No summons
  • No Soul attacks
  • No power stealing/copying/Negating however skill copying is allowed
  • No Reality warping
  • No probability Manipulation
  • Regen can not bring you back from total body destruction
  • Time Manipulation only on self (cannot be used to make your character faster than the speed limit)
  • Matter Manipulation can not be used on gear or opponents
  • Gear follows the rules of powers and body

Battlefield

An indestructible deserted planet.

No Caption Provided
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Lunacyde

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#2 Lunacyde  Moderator
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Valhallavolund

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Valhallavolund

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@mass Quick question: How is this going to work? CAV? Roleplay?

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@valhallavolund: Battles will be CAV style 1 v 1 but this is an overall team effort. The first round will be 8 individual 1 v 1 matches, Human v God. The second round will depend on the surviving members of each team. If there are 3 humans, 5 gods, then there will be 3, 1 v 1 matches. If the humans survive those matches, they'll have to face the remaining gods. This will continue in 1 v 1 matches until only 1 character is left. So you could very well end up with 1 Human or 1 God fighting their way through the entire opposing team.

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If it's not visually appealing, I will fix it on my next edit which is possibly in 2 hours.

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@valhallavolund: Looks like you're using Kojiro's skills with his body. Just a reminder, you only get his body, none of his skills. All your skills comes from whichever character you choose for Skill. In your case that's Tanjiro Kamado (Demon Slayer)

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#9  Edited By Lunacyde  Moderator
No Caption Provided

Freyja: Daughter of Njord, thrice burnt and thrice risen. Enchantress and warrior. Exceptional beauty and Queen of Folkvangr.

Quote: “The fields of Folkvangr are painted red with the blood of better men than you.”

Info:

Freyja is one of the major deities of the Norse pantheon. Freyja was born a daughter of the sea God Njord, patriarch of the Vanir. Beautiful and skilled in the use of magic, Freyja was accepted into the Aesir of Asgard as a token of peace between the two warring factions. Ruling over the fields of Folkvangr, Freyja personally selects half of the most honored and fierce warriors to join her there. The other half are chosen by Odin to enter Valhalla. Freyja is associated with many things, from love and beauty to combat and sorcery.

A Quick tutorial on Freyja’s major Powers

A full explanation of my powers would be too cumbersome, so let’s start out with the basics and what you are most likely to see in this fight. These powers come from both my power set, as well as the powerful magical artifact known as the bands of mourning.

  • Magical weapon generation
  • Healing’
  • Precognition
  • Flight
  • Physical Stat Amplification
  • Friction Negation
  • Enhanced Senses

Some clarifications:

What is a shard blade?

-

No Caption Provided

In short, it is a weapon made entirely of investiture, which is essentially pure magic. While they typically take the shape of large swords, a shard weapon is a living, sentient creature called a spren and can form into any sort of weapon upon mental command. The user bonds with the spren, giving the user magical powers and allowing the spren to manifest into the physical world. Spren themselves are tiny splinters of the power of the almighty. Being made of pure magic, these blades cut through conventional materials with little effort and are only known to be blocked by shard plate, other shard blades, and similarly strong magical items. Not only can a shard weapon shift shape at will and cut through nearly anything, but it can also be summoned and dismissed at will.

What are the bands of mourning?

The bands of mourning are a mystic artifact of legend, rumored to be a pair of bracers that would grant the wearer the full powers of the Lord Ruler (the use of all metals, both allomantic and feruchemical). However, their true form turned out to be a magical spearhead, given that form to hide the artefact from those who would seek to use it for evil. In this case, to go with Freyja’s myth, the bands will appear in the form of the necklace Brisingamen. The bands grant the wearer incredible allomantic and feruchemical power with the ability to use every metal, as well as the ability to exponentially increase those powers through compounding. Freyja wears the necklace under her armor, as appears in the picture.

How does feruchemy work?

Feruchemy is a pretty simple art to understand. The practitioner of this magical art takes an attribute of theirs, such as strength, speed, or weight and stores it for later use. For example, if I weighed 200 lbs I could store 100 lbs, making myself weigh only 100 lbs. Then, at a later time I could increase my weight to 300 lbs for an equal amount of time. I could also draw the weight out at a faster rate, for example making myself 400 lbs, but I could only maintain that weight for a shorter period of time.

What is compounding?

Compounding is a way to essentially hack one’s feruchemical output to produce a near infinite supply of whatever attribute is being stored. This technique combines the magical arts of feruchemy and allomancy to amplify an attribute by storing it in a piece of metal and then ingesting and metabolizing that metal. The output of this procedure produces 10x the amount of the attribute which can then be immediately stored again and used to continue increasing the stored attribute at an exponential rate by repeating the process.

Strategy:

  1. Freyja’s first tactic would be to blitz her opponent from the start. Freyja isn’t much for standing back and evaluating her opponent, she’s more of a jump in and feel it out type. Given the close starting distance 30m, and being able to move at the max speed for this scenario, my opponent would have very limited options and very limited ability to keep up with a more skilled opponent who knows what he will do before he does it and is at worst equal in speed.
  2. If a blitz doesn’t work, Freyja’s next tactic would be to try and get an advantage over her opponent. The first tactic she would employ would be to make the ground around their feet frictionless, making it impossible for her opponent to maintain their footing or remain standing. All Freyja has to do is touch the ground to make this happen.The power doesn’t affect Freyja herself, so she will be able to maintain perfect footing while her opponent is bumbling around on a sheet of frictionless ground, putting them at an almost impossible to surmount disadvantage. Even better, when they slip and fall they won’t be able to get up or move laterally to escape the affected area, because the frictionless surface won’t allow them. All it takes is a fraction of an instant for Freyja to capitalize on this and land a fatal blow with her weapon given her established speed, skill, and precognition.

Why I win:

  1. I’m not going to spend too much time proving my speed, pretty much everyone puts Flashy Flash in a relativistic+ to Light speed range. With my ability to negate friction and amp my speed, I can essentially put myself exactly at the limit for this scenario regardless of whether you interpret his speed one way or the other. Then, in conjunction with my speed I have the ability to see exactly what my opponent will do just before they do it, making it extremely difficult for my opponent to land a hit on me. When this is combined with the incredible combat skill of the Karate Kid my opponent really does not have a chance to win in head to head combat.
  2. My weapon can shapeshift to my will, and is certainly capable of cutting through my opponent’s flesh. If I choose, I can elongate my weapon into a spear or a trident to gain a reach advantage on my opponent, or I could shift it to a shortsword or dagger to move in close, or even a shield to go on the defensive. Karate Kid’s skill in mastering every known melee weapon up to the 31st century means I have limitless options and versatility.
  3. Even if my opponent was able to tag me, which is exceptionally unlikely, I have two incredibly powerful healing factors. These healing abilities have allowed others to survive dozens of different deaths, from being beheaded and burned alive to being blown up by dynamite, stabbed through the spine, dismembered, shot in the head with an arrow, having your throat slit and being crushed alive, and rammed through with spears among other things.

Conclusion:

By my opponent's initial post it appears he wishes to fight head to head in close quarters combat, as he has only posted close-quarters combat feats. Unfortunately, he is posting skill feats for his body, not his skill set. For the reasons expanded upon above my opponent has little chance of defeating me and his argument thus-far has been highly insufficient.

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#10 Lunacyde  Moderator

I do have a few more links to add for evidence, but that will be later tonight. I won't change anything, just add the links. @valhallavolund

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Time to work on this.

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Time to work on this.

You're officially out of time. I'll give it to tomorrow when I check the post again and if you haven't posted by then, you're DQd

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Valhallavolund

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@mass: I am sorry, I'll try to finish the post and if I cannot due to circumstances. I will notify you.

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@lunacyde: I received a PM from Val saying he wasnt going to make a post in time. I'll swap him our for someone else so you can have an actual debate.

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@lunacyde I've replaced your opponent

@zetsu-san welcome to the tournament. Its your turn! Please have your post up within 10 days, thank you

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Zetsu-San

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@lunacyde: A good number of your links appear to not be working.

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#19 Lunacyde  Moderator

@zetsu-san: i'll have to go through and fix them when I get the xhance.

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#20  Edited By Zetsu-San

@lunacyde:

No Caption Provided

Introduction:

Achilles, is the demigod child of the Water Goddess, Thetis. As an infant, his mother was told that he was destined to die in combat. Fearing this future, she took him to the River Styx and dipped his body inside, as well as gifted him an amulet containing a piece of her own soul. The effects of the River Styx granted his body near invulnerability as well as a natural affinity for darkness, while the amulet gave him divine protection against any god who wishes to do him harm.

As he grew older, he quickly established himself as a renowned soldier, whose might was so great, even the gods feared him. This drew the attention of Ares, God of War, who wished to forge him into the greatest warrior who ever lived.

Physical Stats:

The chosen body for my character is that of Akira Fudo, form Devilman Crybaby.

By EOS, Akira was strong enough to strike with enough force to create a continent sized shockwave:

No Caption Provided

As well as dodge a light speed blast in close-range:

No Caption Provided

The Battle:

So... the first thing I'm noticing is a complete lack of any actual attack potency feats. To make matters worse, your primary weapon seems to be your power-set, The Shard Blade, which you have admitted is made of pure magic energy. In other words, it's an extension of you Godly Power.

The problem? My character absorbs godly power to weaken his enemies and boost his own strength:

No Caption Provided

Any weapon or armor you attempt to construct with your power, will only get absorbed the moment we clash. You're basically an unarmed fighter against a guy wielding a spear and shield, as well as vast mystical power.

As far as I can tell, this fight will be pretty simple. Achilles will immediately slip into the mirror dimension, in order to locate your character:

Then he'll just appear at your location, and come with an aggressive blitz:

No Caption Provided

Using Ares weapon creation ability, my character will essentially be wielding enhanced versions of Pyrrha's weapons. This includes a spear that can be shortened or extended mid combat:

No Caption Provided

Giving my character an erratic and unpredictable fight style that yours will likely struggle to deal with.

Conclusion:

  • As far as I can tell, you haven't posted any strength or attack potency feats that can harm my character.
  • Your main form of combat, consists of weapon constructs made of pure magic. Something that my character will only absorb, sapping you of your strength, and empowering his own.
  • For all intents and purposes, your character is basically unarmed. Mine wields a spear and shield, as well as has a variety of mid to long range attacks via his mystical power.
  • You may be able to view the future, but it's useless if you have no means of actually winning. The nature of my character means that the longer the fight goes on, the weaker you get and the stronger he gets, so if you can't bring him down in a few hits then you have no hope of winning at all.

All in all, the very premise of this tourney works against you. The Amulet of Power makes my character the ultimate counter to any god, which is exactly what each of his opponents are classified as.

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#21 Lunacyde  Moderator

No Caption Provided

Freyja: Queen of Witches and Goddess of Warriors

Quote: “You may join me in Folkvangr when this is over.”

Counters:

Power Negation

I guess I will start off with the elephant in the room. To me, it seems that it is a breach of both the spirit and letter of the rules to have a character whose item’s primary purpose is the negation of any god-related powers. Such an item would completely render any god’s powerset effectively useless which is exactly why there is a rule against power negation. Clearly, in the rules, it states that there may be:

No power stealing/copying/Negating”

Yet, that is exactly the manner in which my opponent is arguing his amulet. He states:

“your primary weapon seems to be your power-set, The Shard Blade, which you have admitted is made of pure magic energy. In other words, it's an extension of you Godly Power.

The problem? My character absorbs godly power to weaken his enemies and boost his own strength. Any weapon or armor you attempt to construct with your power, will only get absorbed the moment we clash.”

He doesn’t even really try to hide his abuse of the rules, flaunting that:

“All in all, the very premise of this tourney works against you. The Amulet of Power makes my character the ultimate counter to any god, which is exactly what each of his opponents are classified as.”

So effectively, he is arguing that anything that is done through “godly power” aka all the power sets of every god in this tournament, he is able to absorb and/or can negate. If he can negate a solid weapon because it is part of a power set, which as a god is inherently “godly”, then he should be effectively able to negate any effect generated by a god’s power in this tournament. As I already stated this demonstrates an obvious disregard for the rules that govern this battle.

Attack Potency:

My opponent rightfully points out that I have yet to show attack potency feats. This is mostly because my character is not set up to win matches through attack potency as is measured. However, this should not be confused with my character not being able to generate effective attack potency. Part of my item and the power it grants is the ability to generate an infinite feedback loop of different attributes, which includes strength (see Pewter in the below chart), allowing me to push myself to the limits of this tournament with precise control, particularly given Karate Kid's precision and control over his entire body.

No Caption Provided

However, I will also add that my skill adds to my ability to inflict damaging blows on my opponent. I do not require the massive strength I have available to inflict blows that can harm my opponent. Karate Kid, with an entirely human body, has proven himself capable of staggering (1,2) and hurting Kryptonian/Daxamite level characters through sheer skill and ability to sense and precisely strike weak points. I will cover this in more depth in the skill section.

Why the sneak attack doesn’t work:

.

No Caption Provided

First, at best my opponent can match my speed, at worst he will be slightly slower. Second, my precognition will let me know of my opponent’s attack before he throws it, giving me enough time to react and counter the attack. Third, my skill exceeds my opponent's by a wide margin. In fact the character my skill comes from has allowed the character to react to attacks (1, 2, 3) from beings whose speed far exceeded his own. Without the ability to exceed my speed my opponent should have no way of tagging someone who can see his attack before it happens and is skilled enough to avoid attacks from opponents who are much faster than themself. Lastly, I have incredibly sharp senses and trained ability to make the best of them, as shown in the above image.

A note on skill:

.

No Caption Provided

It really isn’t close when it comes to skill. Karate Kid is a master of every martial art and melee weapon in the galaxy up to the 31st century. We are talking about a character who is human and keeps up with high-tier bricks through sheer skill. We are talking about a character who staggers Daxamites and reacts to superspeed through pure skill and training. We are talking about a character whose self-control, precision, concentration and fighting ability are unmatched in the entire galaxy despite being an unenhanced/unaltered human. Now, instead of being at a physical disadvantage, his skill is put in a situation where his physical abilities actually *match* his opponents AND he can see what they are going to do before they do it.

Even if put into a situation where I am unarmed against my attacker I should have no trouble avoiding and blocking their attacks given the discrepancy in skill and ability to see what they will do before they do it. Karate Kid has even dodged heat vision for an extended period of time, ducked speed force lightning, evaded mental lightning from Validus (1, 2), and dodged attacks with Kryptonian superspeed, without a metagene or super powers, through sheer training and skill.

In addition, Karate Kid has experience fighting armored opponents, and knows how to sense and exploit weak spots, which is demonstrated by dismembering Equus (more than once), a cyborg who trades blows with Superman and Supergirl and shattering the Emerald Eye, which has taken blows from Superboy.

Karate Kid has even created earthquakes and countered an earthquake with his kicks, meaning that even if his amulet illegally negated my powers, I could still put him off balance and gain the upper hand in a fight.

Comparatively, Pyrrha Nikos is not even in the same galaxy of skill. None of her feats can hold a candle to Karate Kid, on any level. She’s not even the best fighter in a much smaller scale series, much less the best fighter in a universe as massive as DC. When combined with my character’s physical attributes and ability to see what my opponent will do before they do it, they really don’t stand a chance at anything regarding skill and combat prowess.

Summary:

  • My opponent possesses an item with a primary function that is clearly banned from this tournament. Furthermore, his entire argument relies on that item to break the rules in order for his argument to be functional. Without the advantage of powers that are banned his entire argument falls apart.
  • I addressed any concerns about the ability of my character to physically contend with my opponent through both pure strength and exceptional skill.
  • My opponent’s sneak attack has been proven ineffective through a combination of precognition, speed, senses and skill.
  • Likewise, even assuming that I am unarmed because his item negates powers, my previously mentioned combination of speed, skill and precognition means that my character will have no problem competing with and even exceeding her opponent in combat, even if they have a spear and shield.

Ultimately my opponent’s argument hinges on him being able to utilize an item that plainly violates the limits of the tournament. Without that item circumventing the rules he is distinctly outclassed in fighting skill, physical ability, and tertiary powers, and thus would lose in a fair fight.

@zetsu-san

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Zetsu-San

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#23  Edited By Zetsu-San

@lunacyde:

No Caption Provided

Disingenuous Arguing Tactics:

To me, it seems that it is a breach of both the spirit and letter of the rules to have a character whose item’s primary purpose is the negation of any god-related powers. Such an item would completely render any god’s powerset effectively useless which is exactly why there is a rule against power negation. Clearly, in the rules, it states that there may be

Um, no... Energy Absorption =/= Power Negation. They are not the same. They do not function the same, nor do they carry the same overall implications or balancing issues. There is no violation of the "spirit" of the rules. Case in point:

  • If I had "power negation", you would not be able to summon a shard blade at all.
  • If I had "power negation", you would not be able to use precognition.
  • If I had "power negation", you would not be able to adjust your stats using "feruchemy".
  • If I had "power negation", you would not be able to fly, create a frictionless floor, or use any of the other magics that the shard blade appears to grant your character access to.

And these are just the differences that pertain to your character in particular. When taking into account the vast array of potential godly items and powers available to those in this tourney, the number of workarounds to energy absorption is countless.

Is my character an inherently dangerous threat to any godly being? Sure. But it really doesn't take much debating skill or effort to look at energy absorption, see it's inherent limitations, and realize that it's completely incomparable to actual power negation.

If he can negate a solid weapon because it is part of a power set, which as a god is inherently “godly”, then he should be effectively able to negate any effect generated by a god’s power in this tournament

This is where your argument goes from simply lazy and short-sighted, to blatantly disingenuous. You absolutely did NOT describe the Shard Blade as a "solid weapon". In fact, you very explicitly called it a "manifestation of pure magic":

No Caption Provided

And that's just from your own description of the weapon. Lets take a look at what the wiki page has to say:

No Caption Provided

Not only does this not sound remotely physical, but it also seems kind of like... a technical violation of the rules... but whatever, it's not like it requires niche resistances to overcome, so I don't really care... Just thought it was kind of ironic, given present circumstances...

Anyways, the wiki goes on to further state that the weapon reverts into a mist and vanishes if the user lets go of it. So yea... not seeing what's "physical" about this weapon. But lets set all that aside for now.

The bigger issue here, is that the first thing I did in my post, was point out the fact that you had described your weapon as being made of "pure magic". In fact, you quoted the very paragraph where I had brought this up, in your response!

No Caption Provided

In other words... You KNEW that my argument was made under the assumption that the Shard Blade was "pure magic" and yet you still deliberately CHOSE to straw-man and misrepresent my argument to fit your narrative.

And just so we're all on the same page here, the Amulet cannot absorb an actual physical weapon, even if said weapon is godly in nature. Whenever Desak is attacked by a physical weapon, he always blocks it, dodges it, or uses his energy manipulation to alter it's trajectory:

But hey, maybe I'm overreacting here. Maybe you really didn't see it when you read and quoted my argument. Maybe... you really are just that bad at this.

Skill versus... *Ahem*... "Skill"

You know... It kind of amazes me that you'd accuse energy absorption of violating "the spirit" of the rules, but then turn around and try to argue having access to full blown superpowers, via your "skill".

I mean, don't get me wrong. I get it... In the land of fiction, skill is capable of literally anything. There are all kinds of powers that, in certain settings, can be attributed to "pure skill". Depending on the setting, "pure skill" can achieve anything from magic, to ki, to psychic powers, to body alteration, to precognition, to splitting the very fabric of space-time to perform three slashes at once.

But the thing is... There is a reason we separate powers and skills for these character building games. There is a reason powers are given clear limitations, whereas skills are not. It should be obvious that skills are not meant to grant powers, as the tourney is simply not balanced around that concept.

I understand that there's a certain degree of suspension of disbelief when it comes to characters achieving impossible feats of skill, but when your character is supposed to be "an ordinary human", yet is able to generate Earthquakes and dismember high tiers, that is where we draw the line and call bullshit. Just look at this scene:

Can you imagine the PoV of an FTL character who is fighting someone like Karate Kid? You're so fast that your opponent is literally a statue, yet every time you throw a punch, you end up swinging at empty space for no reason. Then just suddenly, you're compelled to place yourself in his grasp and slammed into the ground.

You know what this sounds like? Toon force. Like, I can just picture the 4 panel gag scene:

  • Looks at opponent, who is so slow he's literally a statue.
  • Turns the opposite direction and throws a trillion punches.
  • "Wow, this guy is so good, he knew exactly where I was going to strike and chose not to stand there!"
  • Proceeds to press face against fist and then falls over in pain.
  • "Wow, he knew exactly where my face would be. How can anyone defeat someone so amazing!"

I mean really, this isn't even an issue of balance anymore. This is an issue of a character being so utterly devoid of logic, that there is literally no way to quantify what's happening or form any logical conclusions in regards to what this character can and cannot do.

If you truly believe that Karate Kid is a "normal human" and that everything he does is "purely skill", then next time you're hosting a street level tournament or scenario, reserve him for me.

----

Karate Kid is a master ofevery martial artandmelee weaponin the galaxy up to the 31st century.

Ugh... I really really want to get into how completely arbitrary the whole "I know 6 billion times 24 trillion, to the power of infinity, more martial arts styles than you!" thing is, but there's a much simpler counter here.

While it's true that Pyrrha is serving as the primary visual representation of my skillset, she's actually not the only skill I have access to. Purely by being connected to Ares, a random gangster gained inherent psychic knowledge regarding every martial art and military strategy in existence:

And since Ares and Karate Kid are both part of the DC Universe, this logically would mean that my character is an inherent master of all the exact same martial art styles that yours is.

Now tell me, who would logically be the better fighter. The guy who trained in a bunch of martial arts, or the guy who is the actual physical embodiment of martial arts and warfare as a concept?

Other Counters:

Okay, first thing's first. Here's your scan regarding the sneak attack:

No Caption Provided

Notice anything important, regarding the explanation of how he knew about the attack? Her heart beat. He explicitly said that he could hear her heart beat from "kilometer away".

My character on the other hand, is hiding in a different dimension. Not only this, but the attack itself is going to be MAGNITUDES faster than sound.

The only way skill alone is going to help you against this attack, is if your character is somehow so skilled that reality itself bends to his will, and he's capable of accomplishing whatever the plot demands, no matter how asinine and nonsensical it is.

But, surely you wouldn't argue having a skill like that absurd, am I right?

Second, my precognitionwill let me know of my opponent’s attack before he throws it, giving me enough time to react and counter the attack.

I didn't really address the precognition much in my last post, because your links weren't working, but uh... yea your new links are also not working... Maybe for your next post, just paste the text with a citation or something?

Anyways, it's kind of hard to address something precognition, since such an ability can vary quite drastically in the way it functions. That said, it's quite rare for a character to have a foolproof precognitive ability that can not only be used on demand, but also in the middle of combat, so I'm quite skeptical if that's really how your ability functions.

Let me ask a few questions:

  • How accurate are your visions? Are they ever wrong?
  • How far into the future can you actually see?
  • Do you only see one vision at a time, or do you see every single possibility at all times?
  • If future me stabs you in the back of your head, and future you dies without knowing what actually killed him; will current you actually be able to see what killed you?
  • If current you sees the future and reacts to it, and current me reacts to your reaction, will that change what you see in the future?
  • If you're fighting a skilled opponent who continuously reacts to your reactions, causing you to constantly see changing visions mid-combat, can that become a hinderance rather than an aid?
  • More importantly... Does your precognition have any feats against higher beings who have control over their own time-flow?

That last one is especially important, because yea... Ares is not a mortal being and has control over his own flow of time.

For context, Prodigan is a powerful cosmic entity whose slow metabolism requires those who wish to speak to him, to completely alter the way in which their bodies flow through time.

Mars, the Roman Aspect of Ares, was able to converse with Prodigan just fine. This was all part of a gambit to free Ares from the source wall. After doing so, they undid the schism that had originally caused them to split into separate beings in the first place:

It should also be noted, that Ares is a powerful telepath, and while I may not be allowed to attack your mind, I see no reason why I can't read your thoughts to gain the same knowledge of the future that you do.

However, this should not be confused with my character not being able to generate effective attack potency. Part of my item and the power it grants is the ability to generate aninfinite feedback loopof different attributes, which includes strength (see Pewter in the below chart), allowing me to push myself to the limits of this tournament with precise control, particularly given Karate Kid's precision and control over his entire body

Oh hey, a link that actually works. lol

Anyways, I'm not seeing anything regarding an "infinite feedback loop". It does say something about "nigh infinite" power, but... that's a rather relative term. What appears "nigh omnipotent" to characters who operate in the street to castle level range, may very well be entirely insignificant to someone who deals with the levels of force that can destroy entire continents.

And while I'm sure your broken links is part of the issue, it seems rather odd that after 2 whole posts, I still have no idea how your ability actually functions.

Like, I understand the basics.... sort of... It seems you can store power in a piece of metal, and reabsorb it at a later date. And you can also consume a piece of metal to give you an immediate boost.

Your goal appears to involve consuming large amounts of various metal with Allomancy, and immediately storing it within the Bands of Mourning, then drawing from said storages via Feruchemy once the fight begins.... Is that an accurate assessment?

If so, then a few questions:

  • How long does it take to consume a piece of metal with Allomancy?
  • How long does it take to store your power through Feruchemy?
  • How long does the power boost from Feruchemy and Allomancy last?
  • If you start to run out of power, how easily can you replenish it in the midst of combat?
  • How much energy can actually be stored in a single piece of metal or inside those "Bands of Mourning"?
  • How much metal are you actually able to carry on your person?

I mean... your magic is neat and all, but it just seems like the tier it operates on, in cannon, is well below what's actually viable for this tourney. I understand that there's an inherent exponential nature regarding this magical system, but your build appears to still be working with the same materials, and you're just assuming that those materials are going to with stand the immense levels of forces necessary to compete on this tier.

I don't use the term "NLF" lightly, but that's exactly what your arguments sound like.

The Actual Battle:

As far as I can tell, my character is physically superior to yours in every category except speed, where both are roughly at the cap for this tourney. At least I'm assuming your character's speed is near the cap. You didn't actually post much on the subject, so all I really have to go on is your word.

But whatever... I care little for speed arguments, so I'm not going to press the subject or anything.

Even if we assume your speed is equal to mine and that your precognition is not only functioning properly but is also infallible, that still does not make your character unbeatable.

The fact of the matter is, your character's means of combat is incredibly limited compared to my own. You're a pure melee fighter with a weapon that's, appears to be made of pure energy, and thus can be easily absorbed by my character.

I on the other hand, am a fully armored warrior, with a shield, a spear that changes length in the middle of combat, as well as have a variety of powerful mid to long range attacks at my disposal.

I can fire large and powerful blasts of energy:

Even worse for you, is that I can even limit your mobility, by harnessing the energy of your equipment in order to telekinetically manipulate it:

No Caption Provided

In fact, this sort of weapon manipulation fight style, is exactly what my skillset specializes in:

No Caption Provided

The Amulet isn't even the only form of Telekinesis that my character has access to. Ares also possesses vast telekinetic power. He's capable of destroying buildings and moving them across dimensions:

He's even casually rag-dolled Wonder Woman and nearly killed her by shaking the very fabric of space:

No Caption Provided

So yea. No matter how evasive your character is, it's only a matter of time before she gets overwhelmed and defeated. The longer the fight goes on, the weaker she is going to get.

Whereas I can easily recover from potential injuries you may inflict on me:

The magic of Ares can corrode and kill even the God of the Dead, himself:

No Caption Provided

Conclusion:

  • Energy Absorption is NOT the same as power negation. There are very clear tangible differences between the two, and they are wholly incomparable when it comes to how they effect the balance of the tourney.
  • As far as I can tell, the Shard Blade is NOT physical. Therefore, I see no reason why my character would be incapable of simply absorbing it, the moment we clash.
  • You haven't posted any notable feats in regards to attack potency. Your only real argument for being able to inflict harm with your strikes, is by amplifying them via Feruchemy, which you have not yet proven is capable of generating the levels of power necessary to operate on this tier.
  • Your best attack potency feats are not from your powers or your stats, they are from a skill and are only possible, if said skill causes you to bend reality itself. That hardly seems like something that would be allowed in this tourney.
  • Ignoring the clear toon-force aspect of your skillset, both of our characters have knowledge of "every martial art" within the DC Universe and thus should be similar in skill.
  • Even your precognitive abilities are called into question, due to my ability to control my own time-flow as well as potentially read your mind if deemed necessary.

All in all, your character is literally operating on a time limit. The longer the fight goes on, the stronger I get, and the weaker you become. Without a way of quickly and easily putting my character down, it's just a matter of time before Freya is overwhelmed and defeated.

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Lunacyde

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#24 Lunacyde  Moderator

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Freyja: Spiller of blood, master of death, beautiful collector of souls

Mood:

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Counters:

Energy Absorption

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Um, no... Energy Absorption =/= Power Negation. They are not the same. They do not function the same, nor do they carry the same overall implications or balancing issues….

This would actually be a good argument if energy absorption was actually all that the amulet granted my opponent. However, I believe the following five points will prove that is not the case.

  1. As exhibit A, I call Marvel Wiki to the stand:
No Caption Provided

This clearly states that the amulet’s primary function is to negate godly powers and grant the wielder immunity to those powers.

Now yes, I am well aware that Wikis are not the strongest source of evidence. However, this piece of evidence does have a point, which is that it aligns perfectly with two other pieces of evidence that suggest the amulet does more than simply absorb energy. I have included this piece of evidence to provide a fuller picture with which to view the other pieces of evidence. So, as I said, it is only a wiki...but you don’t have to take the wiki’s word for it. My opponent’s own evidence says the exact same thing.

  1. In the scan my opponent posted the character with his amulet said “any power you hurl at me is easily absorbed”.

Notice that he does not say any energy that is thrown at him, he said any power that is thrown at him. Any power implies other forms of power such as matter manipulation, reality warping, soul manipulation, magic or basically any other offensive power, not just pure energy blasts.

No Caption Provided

Now tell me, does that statement make more sense in the context that the amulet gives him the power to absorb ANY godly power, or that it means he can only absorb energy blasts? I mean it literally says any power, but I’ll leave it to the voters to judge.

If anyone would understand how the item works and what it does it would be the character that is wielding it. This character point blank states that it absorbs any power from a god, not just energy blasts. This mimics exactly what exhibit A stated as well.

But wait, there’s more.

  1. I know that usually there are rules against having to testify against yourself, but I call Zetsu-San to the stand.

He stated “The problem? My character absorbs godly power to weaken his enemies and boost his own strength.”

So it’s not just run of the mill energy absorption? Huh, funny. Like the two previous pieces of evidence my opponent clearly states that the amulet does not merely grant run of the mill energy absorption. It grants the ability to absorb any godly power. Which is literally what I’ve been saying this whole time. If my opponent can absorb any power that is sent at him it completely negates any offensive powers that any god in this entire tournament would use. Being immune to any offensive power the other side can throw at you seems to me the definition of unbalancing a tournament.

However, this may all seem to fall short for some of you, so I’d love to give a concrete example of how the amulet absorbs more than just plain energy. Enter Thor.

4. More specifically, Odinforce Thor.

Wielding the power to alter reality, Thor was unable to do ANYTHING to Desak. With the power to reform stars, reconstruct a moon on a molecular level, and the ability to bend time and space to his whims, Thor could not do anything to Desak while he was protected by the amulet. This was a desperate Thor, seeing his people killed, his kingdom destroyed, his son and wife savagely beaten. He could do nothing to stop Desak with the amulet. Thor even tried simply erasing Desak from reality in a powerful display of reality warping, but was thwarted by the amulet.

No Caption Provided
The gem protects Desak from Odinforce Thor's reality warping.

As an aside, I’m not sure why my opponent thought it was appropriate to use an item that is several orders of magnitude beyond this tournament. Loki stated that Desak with the amulet was a Celestial level threat. Beta Ray Bill compared him to Galactus in power after he annihilated the entire Greek Pantheon. He has laughed off Thor with the Odinforce and murdered countless pantheons of entire gods whose stats are far higher than those allowed in this tournament. Was it really necessary for him to have an item that lets him shrug off Odinforce level magic and how does this achieve a balanced tournament?

Statements of Desak's Power/Threat Level

5. If the other specific examples already just haven’t been enough, this scan flat out stats that Desak “drinks god-power like a vampire”. Not drinks energy like a vampire, but specifically godly power.

No Caption Provided

Why is this a problem though? Well, despite his claims to the contrary, the ability to eat skyfather-level reality warping and magic tends to unbalance the game when all of your opponents have the type of offensive powers this item would make you immune to. But I won’t belabor the point any further. I trust the voters will judge this and make their decision.

All of this aside, even if my opponent’s power was merely “energy absorption”, skyfather level energy absorption would not be appropriate for this tournament. There is a reason there aren’t people walking around with Galactus as a power set and the infinity gauntlet as an item.

Solid blades and unsolid assumptions

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This is where your argument goes from simply lazy and short-sighted, to blatantly disingenuous. You absolutely did NOT describe the Shard Blade as a "solid weapon". In fact, you very explicitly called it a "manifestation of pure magic":

I’m the lazy one? My opponent chose skyfather level powers and items to fight in a multi-continental level tournament. Then, in addition, he chose said skyfather-level item that made him effectively immune to the offensive powers of Gods, who are the only people he is facing. But I digress.

This would have actually made sense, had my opponent not made some faulty assumptions about the nature of my character’s magic.

Most notably, my opponent has (quite smugly) insisted that my blade is made of energy. This, he argues, would allow him to simply absorb my weapons with his so-called “energy absorption”. The flaw in this line of logic however is that just because I stated the blade is made of pure magic, does not mean that it is made of energy. Therefore, if his powers are “energy absorption” as he claims, there is no way he can absorb my weapons as he has suggested in his previous posts.

To understand why a shard blade is pure magic, but not energy, you need a basic primer in cosmere realmatic theory. Basically, there are three different realms or layers of reality. These are the physical realm, cognitive realm, and spiritual realm. Everything that exists, exists in all three of these realms simultaneously, though in different forms.

Investiture, or magic in the cosmere, exists in all three realms and can take different forms depending on which realm it is manifesting in. In the physical realm (the normal world) investiture can take the form of a gas (preservation’s mist/stormlight), a liquid (the Well of Ascension), or a solid (Lerasium/Shardblades). All solid investiture in the cosmere takes the form of metal, and these god metals have magical properties. Note that all of these manifestations of investiture are matter.

Shard blades are composed of an alloy between the respective god metals of the shards Honor and Cultivation. Shards are essentially gods, individuals wielding massive and nigh-omnipotent power. Over time, small bits of the shards’ power broke off and became sentient, manifesting as spren. Spren are pure investiture and live mostly within the cognitive realm, but when they bond with someone they can be summoned into the physical realm in the form of god-metal weapons.

The Shardblade is clearly described as metal.
The Shardblade is clearly described as metal.

So, yes, my blade is a solid weapon and pure magic.

Not only does this not sound remotely physical, but it also seems kind of like... a technical violation of the rules... but whatever, it's not like it requires niche resistances to overcome, so I don't really care... Just thought it was kind of ironic, given present circumstances…

A shard blade cuts in both the physical and spiritual realms, hence why it acts like a normal sword (albeit one that can cut through nearly anything) when cutting inanimate objects. Living objects are cut in the spiritual realm by a shard blade first, but can be cut in the physical realm after they are dead, because the spirit-component is gone. I requested that for this tournament I just use feats against inanimate objects and ignore the sword’s unique properties against living things to avoid any arguments about whether it falls under a soul attack.

Shardblade cuts dead things like inanimate objects

And no, it is not ironic, given that I specifically and purposely did not claim to use the shard blade’s spiritual severing, nor did I present any evidence that suggested I would be using it for that purpose. I presented the shard blade with feats only for it to cut through inanimate objects and argued it specifically that way.

This is not equal to my opponent’s assertion that he is just using “energy absorption” when both he, and the character who uses it in his posted evidence have said it is godly power absorption. Not only is he being disingenuous about how the power is being portrayed, but unlike the instance of the shard blade it is impossible to meaningfully separate what he claims is “energy absorption” from his ability to absorb and be immune to the powers of gods.

The Skill Argument

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If you truly believe that Karate Kid is a "normal human" and that everything he does is "purely skill", then next time you're hosting a street level tournament or scenario, reserve him for me.

This isn’t a street level tournament though, this is a tournament where people trading blows can cause damage you can see from space. I specifically chose Karate Kid because I never get to use him in street level tournaments, for obvious reasons. Whether you would allow a character in a street level tournament is not relevant to them being in a multi-continental tournament where the levels of builds are naturally much higher. Of course at a street level you aren’t going to allow someone who can fight high tiers. But in a match where everyone are high tiers it really doesn’t matter, most of his abilities and feats are pointless. Frankly, in this match it likely makes little difference and I only took him because I felt it made sense for a war deity to have mastered every form of combat and he was the best choice for this.

And yes, Karate Kid’s skill doesn’t make sense, but neither does several other skill sets that were chosen which have skills that could be considered powers. It must be noted that there are no rules that even suggest that there is a limit on skills in this way, so no this cannot be a violation of the rules.

A few other very quick points:

  1. The claim that we don’t know what Karate Kid is capable of because his skill doesn’t make sense is not true. Karate Kid’s abilities may not make sense, but they are portrayed very consistently. This consistency means that we can know what to expect with KK. The idea that logical conclusions cannot be made about what Karate Kid can or cannot do is insincere, and irrelevant to this debate since the claims I made about Karate Kid are consistent.
  2. What exact powers am I gaining through Karate Kid? I’m not shooting energy beams out of my hands or controlling air currents. All I really presented was that he could contend with people physically more dominant than him and that he had the pinnacle of control over his body and mind. To suggest I am trying to gain some kind of superpowers through my skill is not correct. I am trying to establish an edge in skill and say that I can channel my existing strength with maximum skill for optimal striking ability.
  3. Let’s make this clear. Karate Kid has not seriously injured any of the high tiers he has fought in the evidence I provided. He is able to contend with them for some time, and maybe stagger them for a moment, but he has not been capable of inflicting significant and serious damage. My point was not to derive AP from Karate Kid, but that he can optimize the strength I already have.
  4. Yes, we both have knowledge of “every martial art in the universe”, but there are some distinct differences between the skill sets that need to be addressed.
    1. Knowledge of forms and styles is only part of skill. The real difference is the application of skill. When we look at application of skill, Karate Kid is able to achieve and demonstrate more ability in the application of his skill when compared to Ares, who has statements of knowing every martial art, but has essentially no feats of martial art skill to show application and contend with Karate Kid.
    2. Part of Karate Kid’s skill is not just encyclopedic knowledge of forms, like Ares, but also trained skill in fighting opponents who are physically superior to himself. Unlike Ares, who typically outclasses opponents and relies on his overwhelming power, Karate Kid only has his martial arts and has developed the skill to fight superior opponents through training and control. This is an edge when you look at the totality of their skill that Ares does not possess. He simply does not have the same experience fighting people who are more powerful than him, or even his equal.
    3. Thirdly, Karate Kid has demonstrated skills beyond the mere knowledge of forms and styles that Ares has. He has shown greater ability to control his body, assess weak points, enhance his focus and senses through skill, and strike those weak points to great effect.

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Sneaking, Precognition and Other Things

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Notice anything important, regarding the explanation of how he knew about the attack? Her heart beat. He explicitly said that he could hear her heart beat from "kilometer away".

My character on the other hand, is hiding in a different dimension. Not only this, but the attack itself is going to be MAGNITUDES faster than sound.

This is very clever counter construction, and it may have gone unaddressed against someone else. However, I am going to point out for our voters’ benefit that the point you put first and focus mostly on to make my argument look ridiculous was actually the final and least significant point in my argument, which I only threw in to bolster several other previous points. The point was merely that I have extremely well-trained senses to accompany my precognition, skill, and (at the very least) equal level of speed.

Anyways, it's kind of hard to address something precognition, since such an ability can vary quite drastically in the way it functions. That said, it's quite rare for a character to have a foolproof precognitive ability that can not only be used on demand, but also in the middle of combat, so I'm quite skeptical if that's really how your ability functions.

Okay, I think a lot of the confusion about how my precognition functions is a product of the links not working and not being able to see the evidence I provided. Below I will provide scans to support how the power works. Basically, the power creates ghostly images that show what everything will do before it happens, as well as enhancing the mind to be able to process the information and react to it.

Demonstrates how the precognition works.

Yes, if one were able to react to my reaction that would cause a split with two possible futures shown by the images, but this strategy is unlikely for a few reasons.

  1. In-character, my opponent does not know that Freyja possesses precognition.
  2. In-character my opponent does not know how my character’s precognition works, even if he were able to eventually figure out that she did have precognition. It required someone with intimate knowledge of how the power works and an enemy who was toying with her and gave her time to formulate a plan for such a counter to be devised and even then the main reason it worked was because her opponent was overconfident and didn’t believe she was a threat. He literally let her come within an inch of striking him purposely just to toy with her.
  3. Good luck reacting to the reaction of someone who is equally as fast as you, if not faster with equal or superior skill. Let’s assume you come up with the reacting to my reaction tactic. By the time you perceive my body moving and react to it to change your own action it will be too late. You are inherently at a disadvantage here.
    1. It needs to be noted that the one time this was shown, Vin still got stabbed in the shoulder. Reacting to his reaction was not a foolproof countermeasure, it was a last chance gambit because otherwise she would have di This tactic is only one that can work one time. Once Freyja understands what you are doing she can easily determine which shadow is the correct one when they split. In order for this to work you are reacting to what I do when I react to your future shadow. This means that you are going to go a different direction than the one I am already moving. The key there is that I am already moving. At that moment you perceive me is when the shadow splits. The shadow that goes opposite of the way I was moving will always be the one that changed, otherwise the shadow would not split. It was only effective against Zane because he died the first time and was never given the opportunity to figure this out. He continued to go after the initial shadow he was going at the whole time.
      1. Again, this is less an effective countermeasure than a “hail mary” last ditch effort in desperation.

That last one is especially important, because yea... Ares is not a mortal being and has control over his own flow of time.

For context, Prodigan is a powerful cosmic entity whose slow metabolism requires those who wish to speak to him, to completely alter the way in which their bodies flow through time.

Mars, the Roman Aspect of Ares, was able to converse with Prodigan just fine. This was all part of a gambit to free Ares from the source wall. After doing so, they undid the schism that had originally caused them to split into separate beings in the first place:

There are several logical problems with the timestream argument.

  1. It makes little sense that my opponent would just randomly alter his time flow in this fight, something that to my knowledge Ares has never used in combat and only used on specific instances to speak with other characters who exist in an altered state of time. Whether it is even combat applicable is highly questionable.
  2. Furthermore, if my opponent were to alter his own timestream that would alter the speed at which he interacts with the outside world. Whether he speeds up his own timestream or slows down his own timestream the effect of that is that he will move faster or slower relative to my time. If he slowed down his own time he would be moving slower relative to normal time and at a disadvantage in fighting me. If he sped up his own time he would be moving faster relative to normal time and thus breaking the rules against using time manipulation to increase speed.
  3. Would my opponent altering the speed of his timestream even have the effect he claims? It seems that it would merely speed up or slow down the shadows I am seeing and reacting to, which would still be synced up with his actual movements.

It should also be noted, that Ares is a powerful telepath, and while I may not be allowed to attack your mind, I see no reason why I can't read your thoughts to gain the same knowledge of the future that you do.

There are a few issues with this argument.

    1. My opponent used a scan of Ares mentally attacking Diana to support him reading my mind. Shouldn’t he have used a feat of Ares reading someone’s mind if that is what he is claiming he is going to do?
    2. Yet again, this is another power that has not been demonstrated in-combat. I would need to see a scan of Ares using telepathy mid-combat to read an opponent’s moves and react to them. Otherwise, we cannot know that such an application of his telepathic powers is possible. Why would he not use such an application at all if it were possible?
    3. Burning copper shields the user’s mind from detection and manipulation. This typically takes the form of shielding them from emotional allomancy and concealing them and others from seekers, but can also shield from an Awakener’s life sense, secretspren, etc. Furthermore, the author has confirmed that Smokers (copper users) do the same thing as the Aviar in the Cosmere story Sixth of the Dusk. In that story Aviar have the power to shield the psychic presence of themselves and others. The predators in that world hunt people by tracking their minds, which the Aviar can shield, which is why the main character has one that goes with him everywhere he does.
      1. Before my opponent brings it up, having your copper on is standard procedure for Mistborn so that they are not detected or influenced by emotional allomancy.
Copper shields from emotional allomancy (emotional manpulation) and seeking
Copper doesn't only block emotional allomancy, but lifesense, secretspren, and the psychic detecting powers of the predators on Patji.
It is common to keep Copper burning at all times, especially when you're about to go into a potential combat/stealth situation.

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Physical Stats, AP, and Feruchemy

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Anyways, I'm not seeing anything regarding an "infinite feedback loop". It does say something about "nigh infinite" power, but... that's a rather relative term. What appears "nigh omnipotent" to characters who operate in the street to castle level range, may very well be entirely insignificant to someone who deals with the levels of force that can destroy entire continents.

This argument would make sense, if the evidence provided was from the perspective of a character. However that is not the case and there are a few reasons the argument falls flat.

No Caption Provided
  1. This statement is an official statement provided by the author to explain how his magic system works. This context negates the idea that the statement is relative to a certain character’s perspective.
  2. Nor is the universe the books take place in an inherently street level universe. In the books some characters have demonstrated planetary level reality manipulation, matter manipulation, time manipulation, etc. So again, it is not a statement that is colored by being relative to a street level perspective.
  3. Feats from the books align with the statement. For example, the Lord Ruler used feruchemy compounding to rule over an empire that lasted over a thousand years and appeared to be a young man, even surprising the main character with how young he appeared. In another instance he was able to instantly regenerate from a skeleton.
  4. The power of allomancy that fuels compounding is derived from the power of the shard preservation. As the author states, compounding is fueling your feruchemy with the power of preservation. With just a segment of preservation’s power the Lord Ruler was able to move the planet and alter its orbit, changed geography and biology on a planetary scale with a hand wave, shifted the planet’s crust, and created dozens of entirely new species with specific roles, including some of which were sentient.

So the well of power being drawn from scales to being able to provide the kind of power I am citing in this debate. There is no NLF being employed here. The mechanics of the ability, the writer’s own words, and the feats written into the books support the scale of feruchemy I am arguing for and the precision to use it within the limits of the tournament.

Through compounding the Lord Ruler had access to an infinite cycle of youth and healing
Compounding is powered by the Shard and a fraction of a Shard's power has planetary effects.

Your goal appears to involve consuming large amounts of various metal with Allomancy, and immediately storing it within the Bands of Mourning, then drawing from said storages via Feruchemy once the fight begins.... Is that an accurate assessment?

If so, then a few questions:

How long does it take to consume a piece of metal with Allomancy?

How long does it take to store your power through Feruchemy?

How long does the power boost from Feruchemy and Allomancy last?

If you start to run out of power, how easily can you replenish it in the midst of combat?

How much energy can actually be stored in a single piece of metal or inside those "Bands of Mourning"?

How much metal are you actually able to carry on your person?

That is generally correct, though it really would not require large amounts of metals. Also, the bands already have stored a considerable amount of power.

  • Marasi, who first tapped power from the bands of mourning, was able to move so fast that she created a vacuum by moving her arm and the world seemed to be frozen. It should be noted that she was limited by air resistance. It was stated by the author that steel compounders (compounding speed) are limited by air resistance, which would cause them to burn up if they moved too fast.
  • Waxillium, who received the bands after Marasi, stated that he still felt as if he could level cities and build them up anew with the power. This was even after Marasi used them for a few minutes and after he had used them to blow straight through the roof of catacombs beneath a temple where he had been buried. After himself drawing on the bands for a few minutes he still wagered that he would be able to survive a nuke-level explosion. Also note that the bands revived Waxillium from death prior to all of this.
Air resistance would typically limit speed from steel compounidng, but I don't have to worry about that.
Wax feats show how much power was already stored in Bands of Mourning

  1. Burning a metal to create an effect is instant. Characters throughout the series down a vial of metals and instantly draw on that power.
  2. Storing power is also instantaneous. The moment you decide to store it begins storing and the moment you decide to tap your reserve it is released.
  3. Feruchemy and allomancy last different periods of time.
    1. The length of time feruchemy can be drawn on depends on how much of the attribute is stored and what rate you are tapping it. For example, if you store half your weight, you can tap that weight and become 1.5x heavier than normal for the same amount of time. However, you can also draw that weight out at an increased rate, causing it to last a lower period of time. In the example above you could make yourself 2x heavier, but the length of time you could maintain that weight would be cut in half.
    2. Allomancy is different. It burns at basically two set rates, normal burning and a flare. During a flare more power is given, but the metal is used up faster. How long a metal lasts also depend on the type of metal. A single vial of tin or copper can last all day, whereas a single vial of pewter would last maybe 10 minutes. Most of the other metals will last somewhere in between.
  4. Replenishing metals during combat is easy and characters in the series do it relatively often. It simply requires them to gulp down a vial of solution with metal flakes.
    1. It should be noted that out of the sixteen metals available to me, I am only focusing on a very small handful of them here. Normal human Mistborns can and have ingested several metals at once. Most Mistborns for example have reserves of tin, pewter, steel, iron, bronze, copper, zinc, and brass any time they are going into a combat situation. I am only focusing on steel, pewter, copper and atium.
  5. That is a good question. Relatively small pieces of metal have stored very large reserves of feruchemical power. For example, the Lord Ruler stored his nearly unlimited health in gold rings that he wore on his hand and stored youth that made him ageless at over a thousand years old in bracelets on his arms. Wax has normal bracers that he has filled with more weight than several train cars and then enough weight to level a building and there was no implication he had ever reached anywhere near his storage limit. Bleeder easily stored enough speed to move at hypersonic speeds for an extended period of time in a spike about the size of a nail.
Examples of Feruchemists storing a lot of attributes in small items.

While we don’t know the exact upper bounds of the bands of mourning, we do know that they are the most powerful metalminds shown in the series. The Lord Ruler’s atium bracelets are smaller and were able to store over a millenia of age. Since strength, and maybe a tiny bit of speed are pretty much all I would be storing, I don’t see any reason to believe they would not be functional as I have argued them.

  1. I requested unlimited metal reserves to accompany my item under the typical understanding that items that are necessary to use a special item or power can be included with said item or power.

At least I'm assuming your character's speed is near the cap. You didn't actually post much on the subject, so all I really have to go on is your word.

Except that I posted a direct statement from an official published encyclopedia that claims he fights at the speed of light. That may have been a casualty of comicvine butchering my links though. I have reposted the image below. If that isn’t enough, here is a statement written by the writer himself. Yes, I’m aware it says faster than the speed of light, but by storing speed I would be able to place myself at the limit anyway.

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Tournament Limits and Balance

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Even if we assume your speed is equal to mine and that your precognition is not only functioning properly but is also infallible, that still does not make your character unbeatable.

I never suggested my character would be unbeatable, merely that I would hold a distinct advantage.

Even worse for you, is that I can even limit your mobility, by harnessing the energy of your equipment in order to telekinetically manipulate it:

Hmm. That doesn’t sound like standard energy manipulation.

I suppose that would be relevant, if I threw my weapon at you. Do you have any feats of manipulating weapons that are not projectiles? Weapons that are currently in their user’s hand? If projectiles are all you have then it won’t be particularly useful in this fight as I am not really a projectile-based fighter. Not that it really matters as I can dismiss and re-summon my weapons at will. Fighters have even done so mid-blade swing to bypass an opponent’s blade.

He's even casually rag-dolled Wonder Woman and nearly killed her by shaking the very fabric of space:

Telekinetically ragdolling a character a few tiers above the limits. Huh, definitely seems like an appropriate power for a sub-planetary level tournament. *Eye roll*.

So yea. No matter how evasive your character is, it's only a matter of time before she gets overwhelmed and defeated. The longer the fight goes on, the weaker she is going to get.

Is that because you’re using a skyfather-level power in a sub-planetary fight? Yes, that seems legit.

And the weaker I’m going to get because what again? The fact you’re immune to godly powers and leech them like a vampire. Again, seems legit.

The magic of Ares can corrode and kill even the God of the Dead, himself:

Note to my opponent:

Dude, you’re not doing yourself favors. Do you have a compulsion or something? You’re posting feats of Ares shaking reality and owning people several orders more powerful than is allowed in this tournament. Not to mention Desak being saved from the Odinforce wiping him from existence with the amulet. Are you allergic to a fair fight? Do you not think you could win with an appropriate power level? I'm having a hard time figuring out why you would use Skyfather level powers in a sub-planetary tournament.

Back to the voters:

Frankly, I do not want to have to make this argument, but my opponent is giving me no choice. He is posting feats of Ares slapping around Wonder Woman with telekinesis and no-selling reality warping from Odinforce Thor. These are showings so clearly and obviously beyond the scale of this tournament that they need to be pointed out.

I would rather spend my time addressing other aspects of the debate, but it is what it is.

Frictionless Fun

My opponent has largely ignored my ability to make surfaces frictionless to others, which is a significant disadvantage for him. As I have shown, I can make the immediate area where we are clashing fictionless, which means Achilles is going to look like this:

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Notably, the power does not affect me, so while he struggles to maintain any kind of footing I will have sure footing, a massive advantage in my favor, particularly when my opponent doesn’t know about it and has stated it is his intention to move into close quarters to engage me. It will only take one move to take advantage and use it to land a blow that will turn the tides of the fight.

Examples of how Lift can slick things around her and make them frictionless to others, but not herself.

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Conclusion

  • Yes, energy absorption is not the same as power negation, but my opponent does not merely have energy absorption. He has the ability to make himself immune to the effects of any godly power on him directly, hence Odinforce Thor’s reality warping not effecting him and Desak point blank stating he is “immune” to his power. This negates the effect of all offensive powers in the tournament on him and unbalances the tournament.
  • Yes, the shard blade is made of god metal, a solid physical manifestation of the power of two shards, Honor and Cultivation. As solid matter my opponent cannot absorb it with “energy absorption”.
  • In this post I have provided proof that feruchemy works exactly as I say and can generate the level of attributes necessary for this tournament. I have done this through the author's direct statements and supported those statements with feats and explanations of how the magic systems function in the Cosmere.
  • I’m not even using Karate Kid for his AP, but merely the skill, control and precision to use my physical abilities optimally and the ability to argue my skill and experience fighting people who physically outclass me.
  • The amount of martial arts one knows is only one aspect of skill. As I noted, we may be equal in encyclopedic knowledge of forms and styles, but there are other aspects of skill where my character clearly surpasses my opponent such as application of skill, experience fighting against opponents who are superior in physicals and powers, demonstrated ability to control one’s body, identify weak points, and enhance focus and senses.
  • I have provided the feats for my precognition that did not work in previous posts due to technical difficulties.
  • As I explained in this post, my opponent altering his timestream is a.) something that has not been shown in combat, b.) will inherently put him at a disadvantage, and c.) would not have the desired effect on my precognition.

Ultimately, this fight will come down to Freyja’s advantages in speed, skill, and precognition as well as her friction manipulation. These abilities have been established and defended and I believe the voters will agree that Freyja is advantaged in these aspects. Once Achilles appears, Freyja will move in for a quick kill and surprise her opponent by making the ground where they are fighting frictionless. While her opponent is reacting to this surprise Freyja will already know exactly where to strike because of her precogniton and will be almost impossible for Achilles to stop landing the blow because of her extreme precision and speed at the limit of the tournament while he is focused on regaining his footing. Once a stab and slash is landed through Achilles’ eye slit, blinding him and damaging his brain, Freyja will then attack the weak unarmored areas of Achilles body. This quick series of precise attacks will make it difficult for Achilles to react and counter Freyja’s assault. Freyja will continue with precise stabs and slashes until all that is left is a bloody pulp.

Apart from his use of skyfather level powers and items that are clearly beyond the scope of this tournament, my opponent has no advantages in this fight. Freyja is superior or at the very least equal in physicals and skill, and has the ability to know what her opponent will do before he does it. She has a blade capable of piercing nearly any physical material that can shapeshift to her mental commands

@zetsu-san@mass

This debate has gotten long enough. I’m sure none of the voters want to read through an endless stream of massive walls of text. I have addressed every point I think needs addressed. You can post your counter and then we can put it up for votes.

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Zetsu-San

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#25  Edited By Zetsu-San

@lunacyde:

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Semantics & Other Tedious Things:

I mean it literally says any power, but I’ll leave it to the voters to judge.

Energy is the capacity to do work. Power, is the rate at which energy is transferred.

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Technically speaking, absorbing "energy" isn't actually possible, as the act of absorbing it is to transfer and convert it, thus... by definition, you are absorbing "power", not energy.

Of course, this is all purely semantical. There's no real, practical, difference between energy and power, unless you're performing calculations for your physics test.

Any power implies other forms of power such as matter manipulation, reality warping, soul manipulation, magic or basically any other offensive power, not just pure energy blasts.

All of these things are direct applications of energy. Just because that energy isn't a visible thing (Although said energy was absolutely visible in the scan you showed), does not mean that it's not there.

Whenever manipulating someone's molecules, soul, or reality, you are harnessing some form of energy and applying it directly to their being. Thus, in the case of Desak, you'd be giving him direct access to something that he can absorb.

Even disregarding the above, neither soul attacks, mind attacks, (direct) matter manipulation, or (direct) reality warping, are allowed in the tourney to begin with. If the only argument you have, for my power being "unfair", is that it can absorb types of attacks that you're not even allowed to do, then it's a poor argument all around.

Wielding the power to alter reality, Thor was unable to do ANYTHING to Desak.

Well that's not true. Thor KILLED Desak... TWICE!

You know how? He hit him.... He hit him, really really hard:

With the power to reform stars, reconstruct a moon on a molecular level, and the ability to bend time and space to his whims, Thor could not do anything to Desak while he was protected by the amulet.

Not sure what stars Thor has "reformed", but that's certainly not a level in which Thor is typically capable of operating at even with the Odin Force. If you knew anything about Thor, you'd know that he has a mental block that immensely limits how much power he can accessing.

You are correct, in that he did indeed reconstruct a moon, but that's hardly beyond the limits of this tourney:

Note:
Note: "27%" is purely in regards to diameter

I don't know what the intended cut off is, for "multi-continent level", but... if you took The Americas, added Eurasia, and smashed them into a ball; it probably wouldn't be too far off from the moon, in mass.

Even if we did say that moon level pushes the limits a bit; the fact is, the moon feat was one that Thor was only barely able to accomplish:

He literally passed out from exhaustion, and this instance took place right between Desak's first and second defeat; making it... by far... the most relevant "upper limit" showing. At least, in so far, as to how it pertains to Desak's performance against the character.

And despite Desak's claim of being "immune" to Thor's power, Thor was very clearly using the Odin Force to disintegrate chunks of Desak's body in the very next issue:

No Caption Provided

It was only by absorbing the Odin Force and using it to mend and empower himself, that he was able to adapt and develop the resistances necessary to fully recover. There's clearly a limit to how much energy Desak can absorb at once... While that limit can go up depending on how powerful he becomes; at least my character has to actually absorb your attacks and build himself up to the limits as opposed to your whole "infinite feed-back loop" argument.

What really annoys me here, is that the above scan was among the stack that YOU posted. So once again, you already knew that what you were saying was false, and yet you chose to argue it regardless.

Loki stated that Desak with the amulet was a Celestial level threat

A threat level is not a statement of power. Case in point, one of the biggest "threats" in DC is a man who has no superpowers whatsoever. I think we all know who I'm referring to.

In any case, Loki was just trying to justify his usage of a dangerous wildcard such as the Destroyer Armor. He knew Thor was angry at him, and would have said anything to get Thor off his back.

Beta Ray Bill compared him to Galactus in power after he annihilated the entire Greek Pantheon.

Beta Ray Bill's statement was purely conjecture and nothing else. The fact is, they had no idea who killed the Greek Gods or how. Bill assumed it requires Galactus level of power, because he didn't know who Desak is or how he functions. There's a difference between defeating a powerful threat because you're able to use their own power against them, and simply overpowering said threat with brute force.

Furthermore, this whole thing was in a hypothetical future. It never actually happened.

Desak is a character who gets more powerful, the more gods he kills, and the more energy he absorbs. So perhaps, in this hypothetical timeline, Desak did absorb enough energy to "rival Galactus". Either way, this is not a version of the character who ever made an actual appearance, and thus he has no place in our CaV discussion.

Well, despite his claims to the contrary, the ability to eat skyfather-level reality warping and magic tends to unbalance the game when all of your opponents have the type of offensive powers this item would make you immune to.

The ability to absorb or counter an attack from a being more powerful than one's self is hardly unique to Desak. If I showed a similar feat for a more popular character that everyone already knows and accepts as a high tier (especially one lacking the "anti-god" thematic, despite being capable of the same feats), you wouldn't bat an eyelash.

  • Absorbing Man
  • Quasar
  • Surfer
  • Sphinx
  • Cosmic Hulk
  • Super Adaptoid
  • Awesome Andy

Absorbing Man has absorbed the Odin Force:

Quaser has absorbed Phoenix Force:

Adaptoid has absorbed Cosmic Cube energy, etc.

All of these characters have absorption feats on a similar level to Desak, and yet all of them are considered high tier, and consistently used in high tier tourneys.

If your only means of claiming victory in a tourney is some form of direct energy blast or hax, then that's your fault. You chose to put all your eggs in one basket, you don't get to cry that it's "unfair" when someone has a counter.

All of this aside, even if my opponent’s power was merely “energy absorption”, skyfather level energy absorption would not be appropriate for this tournament.

The ability to absorb and adapt to a skyfather's energy or even skyfather levels of energy, is not the same as having actual "skyfather level" energy absorption.

Take the Sphynx, for example. The Sphynx is a character who mostly operates within the high tier range.

His energy absorption, on the other hand, is incredibly potent. He can even absorb and adapt to energies that bend reality itself. At one point he was able to amass so much power, that he went toe to toe with even the likes of Galactus:

But, the Sphynx does NOT have "skyfather level energy absorption". Galactus has "Skyfather level energy absorption". And when a being with actual "skyfather level energy absorption" encounters a character who is merely capable of absorbing and handling energies of that level, this is the result:

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There is a reason there aren’t people walking around with Galactus as a power set and the infinity gauntlet as an item.

This coming from the guy with a supposedly "infinite" power source which they can use to "infinitely amp" all of their stats? I mean, I understand that you're capping everything at "exactly the limit", but still.... Your arguments are quite ironic.

Anyways, neither my character's power level nor itemization are beyond the limits of the tourney.

There's a massive performance difference between Galactus casually draining Sphynx dry, and my character soaking up energy blasts or leaching his opponent to slowly gain an edge.

The fact of the matter is, the Amulet has huge limitations that make it completely different from power negation. Despite all your semantics and other diversionary tactics, nothing you have argued changes this fact.

Again:

  • If I had "power negation", you would not be able to summon a shard blade at all.
  • If I had "power negation", you would not be able to use precognition.
  • If I had "power negation", you would not be able to adjust your stats using "feruchemy".
  • If I had "power negation", you would not be able to fly, create a frictionless floor, or use any of the other magics that the shard blade appears to grant your character access to.

My ability to absorb "power", as you put it, does not make you "powerless". It just forces you to use your powers in ways other than "I blast you in the face".

Perhaps requires too much thought and creativity to ask for.

"Skyfather Ares", apparently that's a thing now, too.

I suppose that would be relevant, if I threw my weapon at you. Do you have any feats of manipulating weapons that are not projectiles? Weapons that are currently in their user’s hand? If projectiles are all you have then it won’t be particularly useful in this fight as I am not really a projectile-based fighter.

As far as I can recall, Desak has never manipulated an enemy's weapon while it was still in their hand. My character however, is not Desak. My character does not fight like Desak. My character's combat style is primarily based on his skillset, Pyrrha.

The reason Desak has never manipulated a weapon his opponent was actively holding is presumably one (or each) of the following:

  • Perhaps it's simply not in character to do so. Unlike Pyrrha.
  • Perhaps he lacks the skill to manipulate his opponent's weapon in the midst of a melee confrontation... Unlike Pyrrha.
  • Or perhaps his TK is simply incapable of overcoming the raw physical strength of his opponent's grip.... which Pyrrha, typically, does not even try to do.

Now obviously, if you're one who subscribes to the "feats or nothing" logic, of vine, then there's not much else to say here. Personally, I think that's a rather "anti-fun" way of looking at things. Especially in a character building tourney, where the whole point is to explore the different ways powers can be utilized when mix and matched with other items or skillsets.

Not that it matters much in the long run, since Ares DOES have feats of directly using TK on his opponents.

Telekinetically ragdolling a character a few tiers above the limits. Huh, definitely seems like an appropriate power for a sub-planetary level tournament.*Eye roll*.

Wonder Woman is most certainly NOT "a few tiers" above the limits. In fact, she's not even AT the limits of the tourney. Certainly not any Wonder Woman that Ares can claim to scale off of.

In fact, in the "Part 2" of the story run that the TK feat was pulled from; Wonder Woman could only barely withstand holding the Pandora Demons:

As you can see in the second scan, their struggle was causing Earthquakes on a global scale. Impressive? Yes... Does it put her at the peak of this tourney? No... As a strength feat, I'd say it's maybe comparable to destroying a single continent, but even that would be rather generous.

owning people several orders more powerful than is allowed in this tournament.

He stabbed him in the back... >_>

Also the Greek Gods (With the exception of Ares, Athena, and Aphrodite) are weakening due to the modern age

Are you allergic to a fair fight? Do you not think you could win with an appropriate power level? I'm having a hard time figuring out why you would use Skyfather level powers in a sub-planetary tournament.

I think the better question is, are you allergic to addressing what's actually written? Do you not think you can win without completely fabricating things about your opponent's characters that were never said, shown, or argued; all so that you can complain about how "broken and unfair" the matchup is?

I mean really now... I didn't argue that Ares's telekinesis would be "at the very limits" of the tourney. Hell, I didn't even try to claim that my character would overpower yours using this ability. All I claimed was that I can use telekinesis to hinder your attacks and movements, in order to gain an edge in combat.

He is posting feats of Ares slapping around Wonder Woman with telekinesis and no-selling reality warping from Odinforce Thor. These are showings so clearly and obviously beyond the scale of this tournament that they need to be pointed out.

Tell me you don't know anything about comics and the power levels of the characters, without actually saying that you don't know anything about comics and the power levels of the characters...

And why are you so fixated on resisting a reality warping attack? Was that your original plan? Were you going to reality warp me out of existence? That's not allowed by the rules, last time I checked, so how is it even relevant?

But... since we're talking directly to the audience here (Because that's totally not an attempt at manipulation, frowned up on by the CaV community at large); guys, tell me... what have I actually used Ares's power for that's unfair or against the rules?

So far, my usage of Ares' magic has been as follows:

  • Travelling through mirrors.
  • Inherent knowledge of martial arts and battle tactics.
  • Telekinesis to "hinder" (Not even overpower) my opponents movements and gain an edge in battle.
  • Mindreading.
  • Unusual time-flow to "possibly" disrupt precognitive abilities.
  • Weapon Creation.
  • Corrosive magic to counteract healing factors on weapon-inflicted injures.

That should about sum it up. So yea, if any of these are "super ultra broken skyfather level powers, that shouldn't be allowed" then please state as such in your votes!

Shardblade & Ferrochemy

Right so, I'm just gonna start speeding through this here, since I'm starting to fatigue and I also don't want to create a large text-wall.

Just because you form an energy construct that can be interacted with, physically, does not make it an actual physical object. Green Lanterns, for example, can create seemingly solid, physical objects, out of light.

But it's still made of light. Characters who can absorb light, can still absorb green lantern weaponry:

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If the Shard Blade were truly a physical object, as you claim, then why does it only cut the soul when stabbed through a person? Why do they have to be dead before they can be sliced apart? Shouldn't a solid blade with soul-cutting properties, simply cut both flesh and soul at the same time?

Lets set all that aside from now.

Your weapon is still made of "pure magic". Physical or not, it's still "pure magic". You keep trying to play all these little word games to try and shoehorn powers into these neat little boxes, but that's just not how writers go about defining things.

Something may technically qualify as a "physical object" but that does not mean it's physical in the sense of being exempt from magic or energy absorption. The reason magic and energy absorbers can't absorb physical objects isn't because there's some inherent immunity to absorption that comes with being described as physical, it's because physical objects are typically not made of "pure magic" or energy.

The Shadblade is not just some enchanted weapon. It is "pure magic". The difference between the Shard Blade and something like Mjolnir or the Blood Axe, is a little something called "Object Persistence".

Mjolnir and the Blood Axe are persistent objects. You can leach the magic out of them all you want, but you're still getting smashed in the face with a solid hunk of metal, being carried by whatever force it was initially swung with.

But if you leach magic from a weapon that's "pure magic", then what's left? Nothing. Because that's all it was... magic...

Do I have an "exact feat" of Desak absorbing a "pure magic solid object"? No... That's not a thing he's encountered before. But I see absolutely no reason why a character who absorbs magic can't absorb something made of "pure magic".

Furthermore, there is a clear precedent for absorption of these "solid magic" objects, within the Mistborne universe itself. In fact, there's an entire magic school built around it!

Yes, I am indeed talking about your own power, Allomancy. Your setting has an entire system built around the burning of metals as a form of magical fuel, and if you look at the table; "God Metals" are clearly among those that can be burned:

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If that's not enough for you, then how about a direct statement from the Author himself?

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So yea, it's confirmed that Shardblades can also be "burned", aka absorbed, as a source of magic.

And really, the fact that ALL metals, within the Mistborn Universe can be "burned" and that they just "disappear", when burned, leads me to believe that the separation between "physical" and "non-physical" is just not as concrete as in other universes. At least as it pertains to metal, which seem to have an inherent connection to this "Preservation" entity who supplies the power for the Allomancy system.

In the books some characters have demonstrated planetary level reality manipulation, matter manipulation, time manipulation, etc. So again, it is not a statement that is colored by being relative to a street level perspective.

Okay, but how long does it take them to store up enough power to actually reach that level? Does every person with compounding reach these levels? Why stop there? How long can they even maintain that much power?

The power of allomancy that fuels compounding is derived from the power of the shard preservation. As the author states, compounding is fueling your feruchemy with the power of preservation. With just a segment of preservation’s power the Lord Ruler was able to move the planet and alter its orbit, changed geography and biology on a planetary scale with a hand wave, shifted the planet’s crust, and created dozens of entirely new species with specific roles, including some of which were sentient.

Just because you have access to a pool of power that's theoretically infinite, doesn't mean there aren't limits to how quickly you can draw from that source.

With the way you've been portraying your powerset, it's as though anyone with compounding can just freely reach planetary levels of power and beyond, whenever they want. I'm sorry, but you haven't posted anything in any of your scans that convinces me that it's just "that easy".

In fact, other people don't appear to be convinced it's that easy either:

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Through compounding the Lord Ruler had access to an infinite cycle of youth and healing

I mean, the wikis seem to disagree with the whole "infinite" thing. Also, this tells me nothing in regards to what you can accomplish with physical strength.

Compounding is powered by the Shard and a fraction of a Shard's power has planetary effect.

Compounding is powered by the Shard and a fraction of a Shard's power has planetary effects.

Doesn't say how long it took him to reach this level of power or how long it took him to perform these feats. For all I know, this could have taken days, months, or even years to work his way up to that level, and these feats could have been performed a little bit at a time.

Burning a metal to create an effect is instant. Characters throughout the series down a vial of metals and instantly draw on that power.

Replenishing metals during combat is easy and characters in the series do it relatively often. It simply requires them to gulp down a vial of solution with metal flakes.

Drinking a vile is not instant nor is it easy to do in the middle of a duel... And what happens if your in a shockwave and those vials break?

length of time feruchemy can be drawn on depends on how much of the attribute is stored and what rate you are tapping it. For example, if you store half your weight, you can tap that weight and become 1.5x heavier than normal for the same amount of time. However, you can also draw that weight out at an increased rate, causing it to last a lower period of time. In the example above you could make yourself 2x heavier, but the length of time you could maintain that weight would be cut in half.

Same amount of time as what? How long you stored it? How is that "instant"?

For example, the Lord Ruler stored his nearly unlimited health in gold rings that he wore on his hand and stored youth that made him ageless at over a thousand years old in bracelets on his arms. Wax has normal bracers that he has filled with more weight than several train cars and then enough weight to level a building and there was no implication he had ever reached anywhere near his storage limit. Bleeder easily stored enough speed to move at hypersonic speeds for an extended period of time in a spike about the size of a nail.

I don't know how to convert youth to strength ratios, and leveling buildings is nothing compared to this tourney's tier.

Wax feats show how much power was already stored in Bands of Mourning

Again, I'm not seeing anything that's actually impressive by this tourney's standards.

Your initial supply from the Bands of Mourning seems insignificant. You're trying to store up enough strength to reach "the tourney limits", but you didn't actually post any strength feats for your body. How many times do you have to multiply your physical strength before you actually get something relavent?

I requested unlimited metal reserves to accompany my item under the typical understanding that items that are necessary to use a special item or power can be included with said item or power.

Your build says "the necessary metals" not that you have an "unlimited reserve". Surely you're at least limited by how much you can realistically carry on your body, are you not? And again, if these are "vials" what happens if they shatter from the friction and shockwaves of our battle?

I mean... There's just so many logistical issues with what you're trying to do, it's astounding. But whatever, lets move on.

Precognition & Skill:

Demonstrates how the precognition works.

Seems roughly in the same tier as basic spider senses... Again, what are you going to see if the future is you abruptly dying because of a stab in the back?

Yes, if one were able to react to my reaction that would cause a split with two possible futures shown by the images, but this strategy is unlikely for a few reasons.

If I come at you, aiming for your head, and you start moving, that's going to change my target, would it not?

It makes little sense that my opponent would just randomly alter his time flow in this fight, something that to my knowledge Ares has never used in combat

That's not my point. The point is that a character who can so freely alter their own flow of time, suggests they aren't tethered to the time stream in a conventional way. This sort of thing tends to disrupt low level precognitive abilities. Just look at Spider Senses for example, even basic Limbo Demons, who aren't actively manipulating time in any way, completely disrupt Spider Senses with their presence:

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If he sped up his own time he would be moving faster relative to normal time and thus breaking the rules against using time manipulation to increase speed.

There's no rule against using time manipulation to increase speed, just that you do so to cannot breach the limits.

My opponent used a scan of Ares mentally attacking Diana to support him reading my mind. Shouldn’t he have used a feat of Ares reading someone’s mind if that is what he is claiming he is going to do?

He's literally in her mind making her see hear and feel everything he wants her to see hear and feel. I fail to see how someone can do something that advanced and not also have access to what their thinking. That'd be like playing a video game without a screen.

I would need to see a scan of Ares using telepathy mid-combat to read an opponent’s moves and react to them. Otherwise, we cannot know that such an application of his telepathic powers is possible.

For one, I can easily disappear into the mirror dimension to forget the telepathic connection, if need be. Secondly, Ares was able to casually take control over an army of soldiers and maintain control while battle Wonder Woman:

Furthermore, the author has confirmed that Smokers (copper users) do the same thing as the Aviar in the Cosmere story Sixth of the Dusk. In that story Aviar have the power to shield the psychic presence of themselves and others. The predators in that world hunt people by tracking their minds, which the Aviar can shield, which is why the main character has one that goes with him everywhere he does

Ares' telepathy can effect Wonder Woman. Diana has the wisdom of a god, which gives her an inherent resistance to telepathic attacks. She was even able to block out Maxwell Lord from her mind, a character whose telepathic power can span across the globe:

This isn’t a street level tournament though, this is a tournament where people trading blows can cause damage you can see from space. I specifically chose Karate Kid because I never get to use him in street level tournaments, for obvious reasons.

If you truly believe that everything Karate Kid does can be done with "pure skill" by a normal human, and that neither powers nor stats play a part; then he should be usable in street level tourneys since such a thing implies that he's not a high tier.

And yes, Karate Kid’s skill doesn’t make sense, but neither does several other skill sets that were chosen which have skills that could be considered powers.

I don't know what skills you're referring to, but I'll address them if I have to debate them.

It must be noted that there are no rules that even suggest that there is a limit on skills in this way, so no this cannot be a violation of the rules.

There aren't any rules against energy absorption or "power absorption" either...

Anyways, the reason there aren't rules limiting what skills can do, is because the tourney simply isn't balance around gaining powers from skills in the first place.

Karate Kid’s abilities may not make sense, but they are portrayed very consistently. This consistency means that we can know what to expect with KK. The idea that logical conclusions cannot be made about what Karate Kid can or cannot do is insincere, and irrelevant to this debate since the claims I made about Karate Kid are consistent.

If there's no logic behind how he can do something then there is no way to quantify an upper limit. How much durability does it take for "weak points" to stop working?

What exact powers am I gaining through Karate Kid? I’m not shooting energy beams out of my hands or controlling air currents. All I really presented was that he could contend with people physically more dominant than him and that he had the pinnacle of control over his body and mind. To suggest I am trying to gain some kind of superpowers through my skill is not correct. I am trying to establish an edge in skill and say that I can channel my existing strength with maximum skill for optimal striking ability.

You literally showed creating and stopping Earthquakes, as well as ripping the arm off of Equus:

Look man, the supposed stat disparity that Karate Kid is able to overcome via "pure skill" is quite literally, reality bending. It's toonforce. That's his entire schtick. If you take the toonforce out of it, then all you're let with is "I know every martial arts ever" and that's it.

Furthermore, I don't just have martial knowledge I also have an inherent knowledge of tactics and strategy as well, thus application should not be an issue.

Conclusion:

  • Power absorption, energy absorption, magic absorption, whatever you want to call it, it's still not the same as "negation". The two are fundamentally different things. They don't function the same, they don't have the same limitations, there are tons of ways to work around absorption.
  • Again, the Shardblade is made of "pure magic". You can call it physical all you want, but there's no reason a character who absorbs magic would be incapable of absorbing the Shardblade, and there is a clear precedent for this being possible within the context of your own setting.
  • Compounding consists of storing a stat, absorbing it, storing it again, then absorbing it, and repeating this process over and over and over again. I fail to see how you plan on accomplishing this at the start of the fight. Furthermore, you haven't posted any feats in regards to your body's strength level. So I have absolutely no idea how many times your character has to multiply her strength over and over before it actually becomes something relevant for this tier.
  • Pretty much every feat you have posted in regards to Ferrochemy has been completely insignificant, with the exception of one character; whose accomplishments are only vaguely stated to have happened in the past, with no clear context on how long it took him to achieve that level of power or perform said feats.
  • Also, I don't know why you keep trying to sneak in this suggestion of your character being "faster". I've already shown my character flying at the speed of light via power and reacting to light speed attacks via body. He's very clearly capable of operating at the peak speeds of this tourney.

Throughout this debate you've relied on semantics, misdirection, fabrication after fabrication, out of context hype, and even outright misinformation; all to paint a narrative in an effort to trigger kneejerk reactions from voters.

At this point, I don't even think that the outcome of the actual battle itself, matters anymore. I mean, just to highlight the level of debating quality here, we're 3 posts in and because I didn't "directly point it out", you're still completely oblivious to how silly it is to argue "frictionless floor" in a fight between characters who fly.

@mass I rest my case.

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Zetsu-San

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@mass: Ready to open for votes

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@lunacyde: Since Mass is still missing, can you edit it to be open for votes?

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#29  Edited By Jucaslucasa

@lunacyde: btw, some of your scans have a "/" right at the end of the link after the image type and it's making them not load here. It works when I remove it.

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Luna.

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#31 Lunacyde  Moderator

@zetsu-san: I can in the morning when I see a computer . It doesn’t like to work with mobile.

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#32 Lunacyde  Moderator

@jucaslucasa: Thanks. I couldn’t figure out why the links weren’t working. I’ll try and fix that, though I ended up reposting a good amount of the scans in the last post.

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Two votes and both are 1 word. Nice.

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@lunacyde: @zetsu-san: I came across this by chance, and I thought I'd drop a vote.

There are a lot of different issues flying around. Where possible I'll put them into categories. For me, it really came down to the power absorption and lack of stats for Freyja, so I ended up voting for Zetsu-san.

Opening Strategy (speed and mirror blitz)

Lunacyde wrote an opening strategy when he thought he was facing someone else, but comparing that to what Zetsu-san has, it's questionable what happens, and it depends on how you look at different parts of the argument. Lunacyde mentioned a 30m start distance:

Given the close starting distance 30m

I don't think I saw this on the thread, unless it was mentioned in the host thread or in a tourney PM/Discord. Iirc, battle forum rules dictate a starting distance of 10m, when not specified. That makes potential differences in speed matter a lot more. Neither debater wanted to really go all in on the speed stuff, but I could have gone either way. Lunacyde relied only on statements (I generally accept it for Flashy Flash). With Akira, I know I've seen people argue LS or FTL for him, but looking at what's presented and my own memory of the scene, I feel like could have been contested. The before and after scenes give off different feels as far as distance from the moon and where the battle is being fought (in space or not far from earth), which in turn affects the speed of the beam and how impressive it is he dodged it; Devilman had a kind of janky artistic approach, so not sure how much of that is stylistic choice, but I digress. Lunacyde's opener relies on a speed advantage that he may have been able to press harder, but the other question that came up is how quickly can he get his stats up to a level that matters. Zetsu-san brought up good counters for that.

Meanwhile Zetsu-san's opener relies on jumping in the mirror dimension, which I don't have a good reference for understanding how that works (but it was largely uncontested). If starting distance is really low, do you have time for that? Idk, maybe the answer was there, but I didn't see it. But for the mirror blitz strategy, I didn't see a strong commitment from Zetsu-san about how he would do it. His opponent's precog looks like it is limited to what they see, so a back attack would be lethal. In his third post, he mentioned a back attack, which could seal the deal, but his character knowing to do that may be another issue. KK's other senses presented didn't seem like they'd help all that much, unless there was something I missed in a broken link.

A lot of stuff in the air, so I didn't really decide based on strategy alone.

Broken? Negation/Absorbtion

I'm inclined to agree with Lunacyde that Zetsu-san probably should not have the amulet item. Honestly, we know tourney hosts come up with a huge ban list to keep debaters from sneaking in rubbish. However, no one can plan for everything. That just seems really problematic going forward. Like something that should have been thought of but wasn't. But meh. It's a huge advantage in this match for obvious reasons, so no choice but to consider it. Not addressing the semantics, and there was mixed evidence presented on the point anyway.

Skill

KK dominates. I don't agree with Zetsu-san's arguments against this. KK is a consistent, non toon force character. Dude does the impossible through skill, but that's nothing new in fiction. It's not something anyone has to like, but it happens. It would be outrageous to allow him in a street tourney, but here, I'm cool with it. I was also impressed with Lunacyde's arguments in terms of using his skill more effectively than what Zetsu-san is getting from the Ares power.

Precog/Time Flow/Mental

These kind of go together. If a battle takes place beyond the mirror blitz, I think the precog works fine. It sounded like Ares normally would have to activate the time flow power, so knowing to do that is an issue. Ares TP: It doesn't seem quite specific enough. Zetsu-san simply relied on a benefit of the doubt approach where Ares does other high level TP, so let's just assume he does mind reading specifically. I mean, given the wide range of TP powers, I'm not really comfortable doing that.

Feruchemy/Shard Blade

The Feruchemy is very questionable, based on the arguments Zetsu-san countered with. There's no real clue how much you need to store or how quickly you can use it. Thanks to the item Achilles is using, your shard blades look like they're out of the game. So how quickly Freyja could get her physical stats up really mattered. I was not very convinced. I mean, I think Lunacyde would have had to try to argue a more evasive strategy to really buy time to do that, but some of Achilles other powers may have made that difficult. Lunacyde seemed to acknowledge that his unamped blows would not be sufficient to really harm his opponent.

Friction

I mean, just to highlight the level of debating quality here, we're 3 posts in and because I didn't "directly point it out", you're still completely oblivious to how silly it is to argue "frictionless floor" in a fight between characters who fly.

I might be misremembering something, but this characterization from Zetsu-san might be a bit uncharitable and the ability was sort of just handwaved away. For starters, I don't think either debater committed to flying at any point in their narrative of events for the how the fight will go. Honestly, I don't think I picked up on flight as an ability, lol. But maybe I missed it in the debate. In context, Lunacyde seemed pretty committed to a ground fight, which unless Zetsu-san said otherwise, I'd probably just naturally assume his character would meet his opponent where she is, especially when a fairly significant portion of his narrative involved melee range combat (coming from the mirror dimension to blitz, focus on skill and the shape changing weapon he has, etc.). While flight is optional to avoid the power once you know about it, Lunacyde seemed to mention using friction to catch an opponent off guard, which at supposed LS for both characters, a minor error can turn into a big one. I just think it wasn't given sufficient attention, not that it determines the outcome since there are some Attack potency problems on Lunacyde's side.

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Zetsu-San

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@leonhardt: By the way, I don’t know how strongly you feel about the energy absorption being “too op” (obviously I disagree), but if you (or anyone else for that matter) sees it as a reason to vote against me, I think that‘s fair.

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#40  Edited By Mass

Vote Tally:

Luna - 0

Zets - 3

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#41 Lunacyde  Moderator

@leonhardt: A fair vote, I appreciate you put effort into it, even if I don’t agree ;)

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@leonhardt: By the way, I don’t know how strongly you feel about the energy absorption being “too op” (obviously I disagree), but if you (or anyone else for that matter) sees it as a reason to vote against me, I think that‘s fair.

No, it’s not quite that egregious. The ability is in the neighborhood of a banned power (imo), but I didn’t fully agree with Lunacyde that it is oh so clearly in a banned category. It’s more something I’d have seen as problematic if I were the tourney host, but I do not think it would be fair for me to substitute my judgement for the host‘s judgment, or to penalize a debater after the debate has already concluded. In this debate, it just eliminated one avenue Lunacyde may have had for victory, but I could see it being a bit less fair depending on other builds. But for all I know, the other builds are just as broken. I have not seen them.

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#43  Edited By ProfessorRespect

Voting for @zetsu-san. As someone who's extensively covered Desak to the point of overdoing it way back before he was even a twinkle in most people's eyes, he's definitely not that busted compared to some of the builds I've seen on here. Desak is a one-trick pony who's one trick hasn't stopped him from being killed outright by shit like a Bloodaxe or whatnot. Honestly, while I get the controversy, this is something to do outside of the debate in a more civil manner, not throwing out dirty laundry during it and then not trying to rekindle anything afterwards for the sake of cheap pops and brownie points. It's one of the main reasons why people don't like voting on these, lol. My philosophy is that if a build gets 100% countered by one power or one strat, then that's your fault for going in blind. It's like complaining about Magneto against a guy made of metal: yeah it sucks to debate but it's not busted because you got caught out.

I guess one could say that Zets kinda overhyped Ares a fair bit in his build, especially considering the feats he usually performs. He's good, but not quite the ideal he presented here as well, there's a more balanced and realistic version between those two halves, but there was definitely some high-end stuff going on here. Zets debunked the Feruchemy material and argumentation fairly well with a lot of evidence to show for it and Luna kinda already admitted that their build couldn't really mount a proper and/or significant defence without that playing a critical factor, and as such, it's not hard to really see who could win a majority. Luna made some bad mistakes in their analysis: the whole Wonder Woman section to try to paint Ares as over limits was just a bit over the top, and it was clear that they hadn't quite researched the core material well enough to make a case that convinced me, especially considering my prior knowledge of everything before reading.

I didn't agree with the whole Karate Kid point: especially because they show him to be a mere peak human in Post Crisis when he's being scanned. Yes, some of his meme-worthy feats are to be sorta squinted at because they are that goofy, but I honestly didn't think it was that bad in consideration, it got kinda overblown with the whole "Toon-Force" argument. Yes, many elements of Pre Crisis were not very logical at all, but I don't think it was bad enough to be accused as such, this is a exaggeration.

All in all, Zets just had a better composed build with more versatility, and most importantly, he argued all of this very well despite intense scrutiny. Luna noticeably tripped up in some key areas and had to jump hoops to try to get around the Desak stuff to no avail. This was just a bad matchup.

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#44  Edited By Jucaslucasa

@lunacyde@zetsu-san

It's been a while since I read a CaV, so I might have missed some things, it takes a lot of back and forth to address everything.

Speed:

On Luna's side, that's just a manga statement and a databook statement, neither of which I'd particularly take seriously without some decent corroborating evidence, but Zets didn't press on this, so it's probably fair to take at face value.

On Zet's side, he could have established where the character was when he dodge that moon blast. If they were right by the Earth, the beam should be roughly lightspeed, but they could be closer from what the gif shows. Also just dodging a beam won't necessarily make you as fast as it if you're just moving to the side a bit, the difference isn't huge but it can still be two or three times slower, which would matter a lot if you're conceding that Luna's character is right at the limits.

But since neither side really pressed on this, equals it is.

Stats:

For Zets, that shockwave is pretty big, but it's still just a shockwave up in the air, it's not quite the same as blowing up a solid continent, and probably pretty far below the actual limits of the tourney. The cutting the moon in half is just his character dodging, but he could have specified how he scales to the dude doing the feat.

If Luna's girl was exactly at the limits, I'd give her a pretty big advantage in just raw strength, but the way he went about this was pretty sus. The infinite loop didn't really convince me, as those kinds of abilities do. If Flashy Flash's body was explained more, it'd probably be a lot easier since, as an OPM character, I'm sure his base stats are really high, so multiplying them would be a lot more efficient.

There's the dude moving a planet, but as Zets pointed out, we really need more details like the amount of metal needed and the timeframe. The scans also mention some Well of Ascension thingy that he can draw power from, and I'm not too sure if you have access to that here. Like, all this could work with a better explanation, but I don't think you made a convincing argument.

So, I'd say Zets win on this one.

Precog:

For this, I'd side with Luna honestly. Changing the time would mess with speed limits, and it's an active ability to boot, so it's kinda meh.

Comparing it to Spiderman getting rekt by limbo demons just kinda came out of nowhere, and has nothing to do with the debate. These kinds of comparison only really work if you prove the power has that limitation in the first place, then go "kinda like Spiderman with those limbo demons" just so people can relate to a more well-known example. This ain't it.

Telepathy, I'd agree with needing specific mind reading, just inducing a nightmare can be a specific ability that's not combat-applicable. The controlling soldier thing, I'm pretty sure that's just something related to his God of War status, they get that psychic connection with common soldiers, as shown when Diana herself killed Ares and became the god of war. Being a queen and a god, I don't think this would extend to Freya.

So, this goes to Luna.

Skill:

Phyrra seems to be here more for style, really, so not much to address there.

For the pure knowledge side, while both know all of the martial arts, there's a time difference here, since KK is from the future, and I assume that scan with the Ares guy knowing everything is from the present. Logically, KK would know a lot more, unless Ares still exists in the 31st century to be absorbing all the knowledge, and Zets has access to that version.

You both seem to be going composite, but Ares might not exists at that point in time, giving KK a solid advantage in this case.

For the Kryptonian/Daxamite and Earthquake feats, I agree with Zets that they're completely preposterous, it's like an ant judo-flipping an elephant, but the elephant has super speed and is on steroids. It makes as much sense as getting a magic user, and saying he can still use their magic since in-verse they do it via skill.

That said, it was allowed to be used, so I guess it can count, it'll surely help with the weak AP justifications for Freyja. The main issue is the lack of feats for the scaling, you mention Superboy, Kryptonians and Daxamites, but no feat to show how strong they are to make the comparison work. Of course, people have an idea of how strong they are, but as Zets showed with Wonder Woman and Thor later, comic characters aren't exactly bastions of consistency when you're talking about specific storylines, so some feats would have helped.

Either way, this goes to Luna with the crazy scaling or not.

Frictionless stuff:

Zet's dude can fly, so this shouldn't work, although he surely could have directly pointed it out before the last post.

Regeneration:

For Zets, he showed Desak regenerating after Thor was melting his limbs, but didn't elaborate much on it. I assume that was the amulet, but it leaves a lot for questioning, like, did it only work by absorbing Thor's godly power? It's kinda what it looked like in the scan. Could it heal him from getting stabbed in the brain? Probably not, since he also showed a scan of Desak dying to an axe to the chest, so lethal hits should still work.

Luna's feats were a lot more clear, showing it'd be pretty hard to take Freyja down. Her main issue is needing metals to store the regeneration in, those can run out or be destroyed from what I can tell, so a drawn out battle would be really bad.

Zets showed Ares killing the god of death to counter the regen, which he could have elaborated more on. You can of course assume that killing the god of death is hard, but, feats, ya know. For now, this doesn't help much either.

TK:

This would definitely help dealing the speed and skill of Luna's character. I agree that ragdolling Wonder Woman isn't all that, I'm not a super expert on her, but she surely isn't pulling beyond continental feats consistently, so if he isn't trying to scale to her high-ends, it should be fine. This and the energy blasts give him a pretty clear advantage at range.

The Sneak Attack:

The op doesn't specify a starting distance, so I assume the 30 meter from Luna's first post is from the original thread or some PM you're using. Zet's first post specifies using the mirror dimension to locate Luna's character, but with 30 m distance they'll just see each other.

Both said they'll immediately blitz the other, so I don't think any sneaking will happen unless Achilles decides to disengage and jump into the mirror dimension to attack her. He also didn't actually mention any sneak attack in his first post from what I can tell, only using the mirrors to locate and do a blitz, while focusing on how he can win a straight fight. There shouldn't any mirrors in a deserted planet, so he'd have to jump out of her, either from one of her metals, or her eyeballs, which could be kinda gory if he mentioned it.

It's a bit hard to say, honestly, with her skill and precog, it'd depend heavily on from where he attacks, although I don't think this will matter much considering they start so close.

The Shardblade/Power Absorption:

Alright, the elephant in the room.

Luna's last post paints a pretty dire situation, but I think Zets counters it well by showing that Thor is barely moon level fodder not consistently a Skyfather, at least in that storyline. Still, that power is really pushing it, and I'd personally not allow it considering the other limitations on power negation and stealing, since it can seemingly absorb any direct power on the wielder that isn't just hitting him in the face really hard. Still, it was allowed like Karate Kid, so gotta take it into account.

And, ironically, I'm not sure if it'd do much to the shardblades, the metals in Mistborn just seem to behave weirdly due to how the verse works. I don't think being "pure magic" is necessarily enough.

That said, that doesn't mean the shardblade will be too useful, because, correct me if I'm wrong, the whole metal burning to enhance stats is just for the user, right? It doesn't make their weapons more durable from what I can tell, which is a huge issue, since all the feats that I saw were pretty low end, like cutting through rock and stuff. Without any good durability feats for them, then they might just shatter on every continent-lvl hit or not even be able to pierce Achilles' skin.

Now, I don't think Zets specifically mentioned the power of his summoned weapons either, but his are at least easier to assume considering the enemies Ares fights, and the scales of his other powers shown. They probably won't shatter with these kinds of hits. Still, could have specified that too.

The Battle:

So, we got two characters, both about as fast as each other. With the memetic Karate Kid skill and the precognition, Freyja has a pretty big advantage technique-wise, so surviving in CQC isn't unreasonable. The issue is that her AP justifications are quite lacking, and her weapons don't seem durable enough to contend here, so she's a massive disadvantage against Achilles, who has more solid evidence.

Still, even if her weapons can't do much, she can still hang in a fight via super Karate, but I just don't see a way to reliably hurt Achilles. Her regen is very good, but not endless and it relies on having metal on her, so with the massive hits being thrown, those ought to run out quickly or just be destroyed as a side effect. Add the telekinesis, the energy blasts and the possible mirror dimension cheese attacks, and I don't see her holding for long.

So, @zetsu-san wins.

Final Thoughts:

Just some minor things since I wrote a bible already.

I think both Karate Kid and the amulet are really cheesy and pushing it. Skill just kinda becomes another power, and the amulet is both skirting really close to the anti-power neg rule and taking advantage of the meta context of Achilles enemies being gods for the tournament.

For Luna, it was really strange how you argued things like the speed, that you can just lower it with your power to be in the limits, the AP, that you could technically raise infinitelly but can arbitrarily cap at the very limit of the tourney, and your Shardblade, that naturally soul rips on touch, but you just chose to ignore that part for the tourney.

For you both, there were times where just posting feats for the comic characters would make things a lot clearer. It can be fine to not do it for big famous characters, but as Zets showed with Wonder Woman and the Odinforce, these things can vary a lot.

I think this could have been a lot better from both sides, probably less aggressive too, but it was still fun to read.

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@mass said:

@lunacyde: @zetsu-san: okay we are open for voting

@erik_soong said:

Luna.

@seagod said:

zets

One word votes do not count

You want me to put more thought into my vote than you did into your tournament? Pass.

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That escalated quick.

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#48 Lunacyde  Moderator
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