Revived RoR Tournament, Round 1: Achilles vs Freyja (Open for Votes)

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In short, it is a weapon made entirely of investiture, which is essentially pure magic. While they typically take the shape of large swords, a shard weapon is a living, sentient creature called a spren and can form into any sort of weapon upon mental command. The user bonds with the spren, giving the user magical powers and allowing the spren to manifest into the physical world. Spren themselves are tiny splinters of the power of the almighty. Being made of pure magic, these blades cut through conventional materials with little effort and are only known to be blocked by shard plate, other shard blades, and similarly strong magical items. Not only can a shard weapon shift shape at will and cut through nearly anything, but it can also be summoned and dismissed at will.

The bands of mourning are a mystic artifact of legend, rumored to be a pair of bracers that would grant the wearer the full powers of the Lord Ruler (the use of all metals, both allomantic and feruchemical). However, their true form turned out to be a magical spearhead, given that form to hide the artefact from those who would seek to use it for evil. In this case, to go with Freyja’s myth, the bands will appear in the form of the necklace Brisingamen. The bands grant the wearer incredible allomantic and feruchemical power with the ability to use every metal, as well as the ability to exponentially increase those powers through compounding. Freyja wears the necklace under her armor, as appears in the picture.

Feruchemy is a pretty simple art to understand. The practitioner of this magical art takes an attribute of theirs, such as strength, speed, or weight and stores it for later use. For example, if I weighed 200 lbs I could store 100 lbs, making myself weigh only 100 lbs. Then, at a later time I could increase my weight to 300 lbs for an equal amount of time. I could also draw the weight out at a faster rate, for example making myself 400 lbs, but I could only maintain that weight for a shorter period of time.

Compounding is a way to essentially hack one’s feruchemical output to produce a near infinite supply of whatever attribute is being stored. This technique combines the magical arts of feruchemy and allomancy to amplify an attribute by storing it in a piece of metal and then ingesting and metabolizing that metal. The output of this procedure produces 10x the amount of the attribute which can then be immediately stored again and used to continue increasing the stored attribute at an exponential rate by repeating the process.

The chosen body for my character is that of Akira Fudo, form Devilman Crybaby.

By EOS, Akira was strong enough to strike with enough force to create a continent sized shockwave:

As well as dodge a light speed blast in close-range:

I guess I will start off with the elephant in the room. To me, it seems that it is a breach of both the spirit and letter of the rules to have a character whose item’s primary purpose is the negation of any god-related powers. Such an item would completely render any god’s powerset effectively useless which is exactly why there is a rule against power negation. Clearly, in the rules, it states that there may be:

“No power stealing/copying/Negating”

Yet, that is exactly the manner in which my opponent is arguing his amulet. He states:

“your primary weapon seems to be your power-set, The Shard Blade, which you have admitted is made of pure magic energy. In other words, it's an extension of you Godly Power.

The problem? My character absorbs godly power to weaken his enemies and boost his own strength. Any weapon or armor you attempt to construct with your power, will only get absorbed the moment we clash.”

He doesn’t even really try to hide his abuse of the rules, flaunting that:

“All in all, the very premise of this tourney works against you. The Amulet of Power makes my character the ultimate counter to any god, which is exactly what each of his opponents are classified as.”

So effectively, he is arguing that anything that is done through “godly power” aka all the power sets of every god in this tournament, he is able to absorb and/or can negate. If he can negate a solid weapon because it is part of a power set, which as a god is inherently “godly”, then he should be effectively able to negate any effect generated by a god’s power in this tournament. As I already stated this demonstrates an obvious disregard for the rules that govern this battle.

My opponent rightfully points out that I have yet to show attack potency feats. This is mostly because my character is not set up to win matches through attack potency as is measured. However, this should not be confused with my character not being able to generate effective attack potency. Part of my item and the power it grants is the ability to generate an infinite feedback loop of different attributes, which includes strength (see Pewter in the below chart), allowing me to push myself to the limits of this tournament with precise control, particularly given Karate Kid's precision and control over his entire body.

However, I will also add that my skill adds to my ability to inflict damaging blows on my opponent. I do not require the massive strength I have available to inflict blows that can harm my opponent. Karate Kid, with an entirely human body, has proven himself capable of staggering (1,2) and hurting Kryptonian/Daxamite level characters through sheer skill and ability to sense and precisely strike weak points. I will cover this in more depth in the skill section.

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First, at best my opponent can match my speed, at worst he will be slightly slower. Second, my precognition will let me know of my opponent’s attack before he throws it, giving me enough time to react and counter the attack. Third, my skill exceeds my opponent's by a wide margin. In fact the character my skill comes from has allowed the character to react to attacks (1, 2, 3) from beings whose speed far exceeded his own. Without the ability to exceed my speed my opponent should have no way of tagging someone who can see his attack before it happens and is skilled enough to avoid attacks from opponents who are much faster than themself. Lastly, I have incredibly sharp senses and trained ability to make the best of them, as shown in the above image.

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It really isn’t close when it comes to skill. Karate Kid is a master of every martial art and melee weapon in the galaxy up to the 31st century. We are talking about a character who is human and keeps up with high-tier bricks through sheer skill. We are talking about a character who staggers Daxamites and reacts to superspeed through pure skill and training. We are talking about a character whose self-control, precision, concentration and fighting ability are unmatched in the entire galaxy despite being an unenhanced/unaltered human. Now, instead of being at a physical disadvantage, his skill is put in a situation where his physical abilities actually *match* his opponents AND he can see what they are going to do before they do it.

Even if put into a situation where I am unarmed against my attacker I should have no trouble avoiding and blocking their attacks given the discrepancy in skill and ability to see what they will do before they do it. Karate Kid has even dodged heat vision for an extended period of time, ducked speed force lightning, evaded mental lightning from Validus (1, 2), and dodged attacks with Kryptonian superspeed, without a metagene or super powers, through sheer training and skill.

In addition, Karate Kid has experience fighting armored opponents, and knows how to sense and exploit weak spots, which is demonstrated by dismembering Equus (more than once), a cyborg who trades blows with Superman and Supergirl and shattering the Emerald Eye, which has taken blows from Superboy.

Karate Kid has even created earthquakes and countered an earthquake with his kicks, meaning that even if his amulet illegally negated my powers, I could still put him off balance and gain the upper hand in a fight.

Comparatively, Pyrrha Nikos is not even in the same galaxy of skill. None of her feats can hold a candle to Karate Kid, on any level. She’s not even the best fighter in a much smaller scale series, much less the best fighter in a universe as massive as DC. When combined with my character’s physical attributes and ability to see what my opponent will do before they do it, they really don’t stand a chance at anything regarding skill and combat prowess.

To me, it seems that it is a breach of both the spirit and letter of the rules to have a character whose item’s primary purpose is the negation of any god-related powers. Such an item would completely render any god’s powerset effectively useless which is exactly why there is a rule against power negation. Clearly, in the rules, it states that there may be

Um, no... Energy Absorption =/= Power Negation. They are not the same. They do not function the same, nor do they carry the same overall implications or balancing issues. There is no violation of the "spirit" of the rules. Case in point:

• If I had "power negation", you would not be able to summon a shard blade at all.
• If I had "power negation", you would not be able to use precognition.
• If I had "power negation", you would not be able to adjust your stats using "feruchemy".
• If I had "power negation", you would not be able to fly, create a frictionless floor, or use any of the other magics that the shard blade appears to grant your character access to.

And these are just the differences that pertain to your character in particular. When taking into account the vast array of potential godly items and powers available to those in this tourney, the number of workarounds to energy absorption is countless.

Is my character an inherently dangerous threat to any godly being? Sure. But it really doesn't take much debating skill or effort to look at energy absorption, see it's inherent limitations, and realize that it's completely incomparable to actual power negation.

If he can negate a solid weapon because it is part of a power set, which as a god is inherently “godly”, then he should be effectively able to negate any effect generated by a god’s power in this tournament

This is where your argument goes from simply lazy and short-sighted, to blatantly disingenuous. You absolutely did NOT describe the Shard Blade as a "solid weapon". In fact, you very explicitly called it a "manifestation of pure magic":

And that's just from your own description of the weapon. Lets take a look at what the wiki page has to say:

Not only does this not sound remotely physical, but it also seems kind of like... a technical violation of the rules... but whatever, it's not like it requires niche resistances to overcome, so I don't really care... Just thought it was kind of ironic, given present circumstances...

Anyways, the wiki goes on to further state that the weapon reverts into a mist and vanishes if the user lets go of it. So yea... not seeing what's "physical" about this weapon. But lets set all that aside for now.

The bigger issue here, is that the first thing I did in my post, was point out the fact that you had described your weapon as being made of "pure magic". In fact, you quoted the very paragraph where I had brought this up, in your response!

In other words... You KNEW that my argument was made under the assumption that the Shard Blade was "pure magic" and yet you still deliberately CHOSE to straw-man and misrepresent my argument to fit your narrative.

And just so we're all on the same page here, the Amulet cannot absorb an actual physical weapon, even if said weapon is godly in nature. Whenever Desak is attacked by a physical weapon, he always blocks it, dodges it, or uses his energy manipulation to alter it's trajectory:

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But hey, maybe I'm overreacting here. Maybe you really didn't see it when you read and quoted my argument. Maybe... you really are just that bad at this.

You know... It kind of amazes me that you'd accuse energy absorption of violating "the spirit" of the rules, but then turn around and try to argue having access to full blown superpowers, via your "skill".

I mean, don't get me wrong. I get it... In the land of fiction, skill is capable of literally anything. There are all kinds of powers that, in certain settings, can be attributed to "pure skill". Depending on the setting, "pure skill" can achieve anything from magic, to ki, to psychic powers, to body alteration, to precognition, to splitting the very fabric of space-time to perform three slashes at once.

But the thing is... There is a reason we separate powers and skills for these character building games. There is a reason powers are given clear limitations, whereas skills are not. It should be obvious that skills are not meant to grant powers, as the tourney is simply not balanced around that concept.

I understand that there's a certain degree of suspension of disbelief when it comes to characters achieving impossible feats of skill, but when your character is supposed to be "an ordinary human", yet is able to generate Earthquakes and dismember high tiers, that is where we draw the line and call bullshit. Just look at this scene:

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Can you imagine the PoV of an FTL character who is fighting someone like Karate Kid? You're so fast that your opponent is literally a statue, yet every time you throw a punch, you end up swinging at empty space for no reason. Then just suddenly, you're compelled to place yourself in his grasp and slammed into the ground.

You know what this sounds like? Toon force. Like, I can just picture the 4 panel gag scene:

• Looks at opponent, who is so slow he's literally a statue.
• Turns the opposite direction and throws a trillion punches.
• "Wow, this guy is so good, he knew exactly where I was going to strike and chose not to stand there!"
• Proceeds to press face against fist and then falls over in pain.
• "Wow, he knew exactly where my face would be. How can anyone defeat someone so amazing!"

I mean really, this isn't even an issue of balance anymore. This is an issue of a character being so utterly devoid of logic, that there is literally no way to quantify what's happening or form any logical conclusions in regards to what this character can and cannot do.

If you truly believe that Karate Kid is a "normal human" and that everything he does is "purely skill", then next time you're hosting a street level tournament or scenario, reserve him for me.

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Karate Kid is a master ofevery martial artandmelee weaponin the galaxy up to the 31st century.

Ugh... I really really want to get into how completely arbitrary the whole "I know 6 billion times 24 trillion, to the power of infinity, more martial arts styles than you!" thing is, but there's a much simpler counter here.

While it's true that Pyrrha is serving as the primary visual representation of my skillset, she's actually not the only skill I have access to. Purely by being connected to Ares, a random gangster gained inherent psychic knowledge regarding every martial art and military strategy in existence:

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And since Ares and Karate Kid are both part of the DC Universe, this logically would mean that my character is an inherent master of all the exact same martial art styles that yours is.

Now tell me, who would logically be the better fighter. The guy who trained in a bunch of martial arts, or the guy who is the actual physical embodiment of martial arts and warfare as a concept?

Okay, first thing's first. Here's your scan regarding the sneak attack:

Notice anything important, regarding the explanation of how he knew about the attack? Her heart beat. He explicitly said that he could hear her heart beat from "kilometer away".

My character on the other hand, is hiding in a different dimension. Not only this, but the attack itself is going to be MAGNITUDES faster than sound.

The only way skill alone is going to help you against this attack, is if your character is somehow so skilled that reality itself bends to his will, and he's capable of accomplishing whatever the plot demands, no matter how asinine and nonsensical it is.

But, surely you wouldn't argue having a skill like that absurd, am I right?

Second, my precognitionwill let me know of my opponent’s attack before he throws it, giving me enough time to react and counter the attack.

I didn't really address the precognition much in my last post, because your links weren't working, but uh... yea your new links are also not working... Maybe for your next post, just paste the text with a citation or something?

Anyways, it's kind of hard to address something precognition, since such an ability can vary quite drastically in the way it functions. That said, it's quite rare for a character to have a foolproof precognitive ability that can not only be used on demand, but also in the middle of combat, so I'm quite skeptical if that's really how your ability functions.

Let me ask a few questions:

• How accurate are your visions? Are they ever wrong?
• How far into the future can you actually see?
• Do you only see one vision at a time, or do you see every single possibility at all times?
• If future me stabs you in the back of your head, and future you dies without knowing what actually killed him; will current you actually be able to see what killed you?
• If current you sees the future and reacts to it, and current me reacts to your reaction, will that change what you see in the future?
• If you're fighting a skilled opponent who continuously reacts to your reactions, causing you to constantly see changing visions mid-combat, can that become a hinderance rather than an aid?
• More importantly... Does your precognition have any feats against higher beings who have control over their own time-flow?

That last one is especially important, because yea... Ares is not a mortal being and has control over his own flow of time.

For context, Prodigan is a powerful cosmic entity whose slow metabolism requires those who wish to speak to him, to completely alter the way in which their bodies flow through time.

Mars, the Roman Aspect of Ares, was able to converse with Prodigan just fine. This was all part of a gambit to free Ares from the source wall. After doing so, they undid the schism that had originally caused them to split into separate beings in the first place:

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It should also be noted, that Ares is a powerful telepath, and while I may not be allowed to attack your mind, I see no reason why I can't read your thoughts to gain the same knowledge of the future that you do.

However, this should not be confused with my character not being able to generate effective attack potency. Part of my item and the power it grants is the ability to generate aninfinite feedback loopof different attributes, which includes strength (see Pewter in the below chart), allowing me to push myself to the limits of this tournament with precise control, particularly given Karate Kid's precision and control over his entire body

Oh hey, a link that actually works. lol

Anyways, I'm not seeing anything regarding an "infinite feedback loop". It does say something about "nigh infinite" power, but... that's a rather relative term. What appears "nigh omnipotent" to characters who operate in the street to castle level range, may very well be entirely insignificant to someone who deals with the levels of force that can destroy entire continents.

And while I'm sure your broken links is part of the issue, it seems rather odd that after 2 whole posts, I still have no idea how your ability actually functions.

Like, I understand the basics.... sort of... It seems you can store power in a piece of metal, and reabsorb it at a later date. And you can also consume a piece of metal to give you an immediate boost.

Your goal appears to involve consuming large amounts of various metal with Allomancy, and immediately storing it within the Bands of Mourning, then drawing from said storages via Feruchemy once the fight begins.... Is that an accurate assessment?

If so, then a few questions:

• How long does it take to consume a piece of metal with Allomancy?
• How long does it take to store your power through Feruchemy?
• How long does the power boost from Feruchemy and Allomancy last?
• If you start to run out of power, how easily can you replenish it in the midst of combat?
• How much energy can actually be stored in a single piece of metal or inside those "Bands of Mourning"?
• How much metal are you actually able to carry on your person?

I mean... your magic is neat and all, but it just seems like the tier it operates on, in cannon, is well below what's actually viable for this tourney. I understand that there's an inherent exponential nature regarding this magical system, but your build appears to still be working with the same materials, and you're just assuming that those materials are going to with stand the immense levels of forces necessary to compete on this tier.

I don't use the term "NLF" lightly, but that's exactly what your arguments sound like.

As far as I can tell, my character is physically superior to yours in every category except speed, where both are roughly at the cap for this tourney. At least I'm assuming your character's speed is near the cap. You didn't actually post much on the subject, so all I really have to go on is your word.

But whatever... I care little for speed arguments, so I'm not going to press the subject or anything.

Even if we assume your speed is equal to mine and that your precognition is not only functioning properly but is also infallible, that still does not make your character unbeatable.

The fact of the matter is, your character's means of combat is incredibly limited compared to my own. You're a pure melee fighter with a weapon that's, appears to be made of pure energy, and thus can be easily absorbed by my character.

I on the other hand, am a fully armored warrior, with a shield, a spear that changes length in the middle of combat, as well as have a variety of powerful mid to long range attacks at my disposal.

I can fire large and powerful blasts of energy:

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Even worse for you, is that I can even limit your mobility, by harnessing the energy of your equipment in order to telekinetically manipulate it:

In fact, this sort of weapon manipulation fight style, is exactly what my skillset specializes in:

The Amulet isn't even the only form of Telekinesis that my character has access to. Ares also possesses vast telekinetic power. He's capable of destroying buildings and moving them across dimensions:

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He's even casually rag-dolled Wonder Woman and nearly killed her by shaking the very fabric of space:

So yea. No matter how evasive your character is, it's only a matter of time before she gets overwhelmed and defeated. The longer the fight goes on, the weaker she is going to get.

Whereas I can easily recover from potential injuries you may inflict on me:

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The magic of Ares can corrode and kill even the God of the Dead, himself:

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Um, no... Energy Absorption =/= Power Negation. They are not the same. They do not function the same, nor do they carry the same overall implications or balancing issues….

This would actually be a good argument if energy absorption was actually all that the amulet granted my opponent. However, I believe the following five points will prove that is not the case.

1. As exhibit A, I call Marvel Wiki to the stand:

This clearly states that the amulet’s primary function is to negate godly powers and grant the wielder immunity to those powers.

Now yes, I am well aware that Wikis are not the strongest source of evidence. However, this piece of evidence does have a point, which is that it aligns perfectly with two other pieces of evidence that suggest the amulet does more than simply absorb energy. I have included this piece of evidence to provide a fuller picture with which to view the other pieces of evidence. So, as I said, it is only a wiki...but you don’t have to take the wiki’s word for it. My opponent’s own evidence says the exact same thing.

2. In the scan my opponent posted the character with his amulet said “any power you hurl at me is easily absorbed”.

Notice that he does not say any energy that is thrown at him, he said any power that is thrown at him. Any power implies other forms of power such as matter manipulation, reality warping, soul manipulation, magic or basically any other offensive power, not just pure energy blasts.

Now tell me, does that statement make more sense in the context that the amulet gives him the power to absorb ANY godly power, or that it means he can only absorb energy blasts? I mean it literally says any power, but I’ll leave it to the voters to judge.

If anyone would understand how the item works and what it does it would be the character that is wielding it. This character point blank states that it absorbs any power from a god, not just energy blasts. This mimics exactly what exhibit A stated as well.

But wait, there’s more.

3. I know that usually there are rules against having to testify against yourself, but I call Zetsu-San to the stand.

He stated “The problem? My character absorbs godly power to weaken his enemies and boost his own strength.”

So it’s not just run of the mill energy absorption? Huh, funny. Like the two previous pieces of evidence my opponent clearly states that the amulet does not merely grant run of the mill energy absorption. It grants the ability to absorb any godly power. Which is literally what I’ve been saying this whole time. If my opponent can absorb any power that is sent at him it completely negates any offensive powers that any god in this entire tournament would use. Being immune to any offensive power the other side can throw at you seems to me the definition of unbalancing a tournament.

However, this may all seem to fall short for some of you, so I’d love to give a concrete example of how the amulet absorbs more than just plain energy. Enter Thor.

4. More specifically, Odinforce Thor.

Wielding the power to alter reality, Thor was unable to do ANYTHING to Desak. With the power to reform stars, reconstruct a moon on a molecular level, and the ability to bend time and space to his whims, Thor could not do anything to Desak while he was protected by the amulet. This was a desperate Thor, seeing his people killed, his kingdom destroyed, his son and wife savagely beaten. He could do nothing to stop Desak with the amulet. Thor even tried simply erasing Desak from reality in a powerful display of reality warping, but was thwarted by the amulet.

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As an aside, I’m not sure why my opponent thought it was appropriate to use an item that is several orders of magnitude beyond this tournament. Loki stated that Desak with the amulet was a Celestial level threat. Beta Ray Bill compared him to Galactus in power after he annihilated the entire Greek Pantheon. He has laughed off Thor with the Odinforce and murdered countless pantheons of entire gods whose stats are far higher than those allowed in this tournament. Was it really necessary for him to have an item that lets him shrug off Odinforce level magic and how does this achieve a balanced tournament?

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5. If the other specific examples already just haven’t been enough, this scan flat out stats that Desak “drinks god-power like a vampire”. Not drinks energy like a vampire, but specifically godly power.

Why is this a problem though? Well, despite his claims to the contrary, the ability to eat skyfather-level reality warping and magic tends to unbalance the game when all of your opponents have the type of offensive powers this item would make you immune to. But I won’t belabor the point any further. I trust the voters will judge this and make their decision.

All of this aside, even if my opponent’s power was merely “energy absorption”, skyfather level energy absorption would not be appropriate for this tournament. There is a reason there aren’t people walking around with Galactus as a power set and the infinity gauntlet as an item.

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This is where your argument goes from simply lazy and short-sighted, to blatantly disingenuous. You absolutely did NOT describe the Shard Blade as a "solid weapon". In fact, you very explicitly called it a "manifestation of pure magic":

I’m the lazy one? My opponent chose skyfather level powers and items to fight in a multi-continental level tournament. Then, in addition, he chose said skyfather-level item that made him effectively immune to the offensive powers of Gods, who are the only people he is facing. But I digress.

This would have actually made sense, had my opponent not made some faulty assumptions about the nature of my character’s magic.

Most notably, my opponent has (quite smugly) insisted that my blade is made of energy. This, he argues, would allow him to simply absorb my weapons with his so-called “energy absorption”. The flaw in this line of logic however is that just because I stated the blade is made of pure magic, does not mean that it is made of energy. Therefore, if his powers are “energy absorption” as he claims, there is no way he can absorb my weapons as he has suggested in his previous posts.

To understand why a shard blade is pure magic, but not energy, you need a basic primer in cosmere realmatic theory. Basically, there are three different realms or layers of reality. These are the physical realm, cognitive realm, and spiritual realm. Everything that exists, exists in all three of these realms simultaneously, though in different forms.

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Investiture, or magic in the cosmere, exists in all three realms and can take different forms depending on which realm it is manifesting in. In the physical realm (the normal world) investiture can take the form of a gas (preservation’s mist/stormlight), a liquid (the Well of Ascension), or a solid (Lerasium/Shardblades). All solid investiture in the cosmere takes the form of metal, and these god metals have magical properties. Note that all of these manifestations of investiture are matter.

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Shard blades are composed of an alloy between the respective god metals of the shards Honor and Cultivation. Shards are essentially gods, individuals wielding massive and nigh-omnipotent power. Over time, small bits of the shards’ power broke off and became sentient, manifesting as spren. Spren are pure investiture and live mostly within the cognitive realm, but when they bond with someone they can be summoned into the physical realm in the form of god-metal weapons.

So, yes, my blade is a solid weapon and pure magic.

Not only does this not sound remotely physical, but it also seems kind of like... a technical violation of the rules... but whatever, it's not like it requires niche resistances to overcome, so I don't really care... Just thought it was kind of ironic, given present circumstances…

A shard blade cuts in both the physical and spiritual realms, hence why it acts like a normal sword (albeit one that can cut through nearly anything) when cutting inanimate objects. Living objects are cut in the spiritual realm by a shard blade first, but can be cut in the physical realm after they are dead, because the spirit-component is gone. I requested that for this tournament I just use feats against inanimate objects and ignore the sword’s unique properties against living things to avoid any arguments about whether it falls under a soul attack.

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And no, it is not ironic, given that I specifically and purposely did not claim to use the shard blade’s spiritual severing, nor did I present any evidence that suggested I would be using it for that purpose. I presented the shard blade with feats only for it to cut through inanimate objects and argued it specifically that way.

This is not equal to my opponent’s assertion that he is just using “energy absorption” when both he, and the character who uses it in his posted evidence have said it is godly power absorption. Not only is he being disingenuous about how the power is being portrayed, but unlike the instance of the shard blade it is impossible to meaningfully separate what he claims is “energy absorption” from his ability to absorb and be immune to the powers of gods.

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If you truly believe that Karate Kid is a "normal human" and that everything he does is "purely skill", then next time you're hosting a street level tournament or scenario, reserve him for me.

This isn’t a street level tournament though, this is a tournament where people trading blows can cause damage you can see from space. I specifically chose Karate Kid because I never get to use him in street level tournaments, for obvious reasons. Whether you would allow a character in a street level tournament is not relevant to them being in a multi-continental tournament where the levels of builds are naturally much higher. Of course at a street level you aren’t going to allow someone who can fight high tiers. But in a match where everyone are high tiers it really doesn’t matter, most of his abilities and feats are pointless. Frankly, in this match it likely makes little difference and I only took him because I felt it made sense for a war deity to have mastered every form of combat and he was the best choice for this.

And yes, Karate Kid’s skill doesn’t make sense, but neither does several other skill sets that were chosen which have skills that could be considered powers. It must be noted that there are no rules that even suggest that there is a limit on skills in this way, so no this cannot be a violation of the rules.

A few other very quick points:

1. The claim that we don’t know what Karate Kid is capable of because his skill doesn’t make sense is not true. Karate Kid’s abilities may not make sense, but they are portrayed very consistently. This consistency means that we can know what to expect with KK. The idea that logical conclusions cannot be made about what Karate Kid can or cannot do is insincere, and irrelevant to this debate since the claims I made about Karate Kid are consistent.
2. What exact powers am I gaining through Karate Kid? I’m not shooting energy beams out of my hands or controlling air currents. All I really presented was that he could contend with people physically more dominant than him and that he had the pinnacle of control over his body and mind. To suggest I am trying to gain some kind of superpowers through my skill is not correct. I am trying to establish an edge in skill and say that I can channel my existing strength with maximum skill for optimal striking ability.
3. Let’s make this clear. Karate Kid has not seriously injured any of the high tiers he has fought in the evidence I provided. He is able to contend with them for some time, and maybe stagger them for a moment, but he has not been capable of inflicting significant and serious damage. My point was not to derive AP from Karate Kid, but that he can optimize the strength I already have.
4. Yes, we both have knowledge of “every martial art in the universe”, but there are some distinct differences between the skill sets that need to be addressed.
   
   1. Knowledge of forms and styles is only part of skill. The real difference is the application of skill. When we look at application of skill, Karate Kid is able to achieve and demonstrate more ability in the application of his skill when compared to Ares, who has statements of knowing every martial art, but has essentially no feats of martial art skill to show application and contend with Karate Kid.
   2. Part of Karate Kid’s skill is not just encyclopedic knowledge of forms, like Ares, but also trained skill in fighting opponents who are physically superior to himself. Unlike Ares, who typically outclasses opponents and relies on his overwhelming power, Karate Kid only has his martial arts and has developed the skill to fight superior opponents through training and control. This is an edge when you look at the totality of their skill that Ares does not possess. He simply does not have the same experience fighting people who are more powerful than him, or even his equal.
   3. Thirdly, Karate Kid has demonstrated skills beyond the mere knowledge of forms and styles that Ares has. He has shown greater ability to control his body, assess weak points, enhance his focus and senses through skill, and strike those weak points to great effect.

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Notice anything important, regarding the explanation of how he knew about the attack? Her heart beat. He explicitly said that he could hear her heart beat from "kilometer away".

My character on the other hand, is hiding in a different dimension. Not only this, but the attack itself is going to be MAGNITUDES faster than sound.

This is very clever counter construction, and it may have gone unaddressed against someone else. However, I am going to point out for our voters’ benefit that the point you put first and focus mostly on to make my argument look ridiculous was actually the final and least significant point in my argument, which I only threw in to bolster several other previous points. The point was merely that I have extremely well-trained senses to accompany my precognition, skill, and (at the very least) equal level of speed.

Anyways, it's kind of hard to address something precognition, since such an ability can vary quite drastically in the way it functions. That said, it's quite rare for a character to have a foolproof precognitive ability that can not only be used on demand, but also in the middle of combat, so I'm quite skeptical if that's really how your ability functions.

Okay, I think a lot of the confusion about how my precognition functions is a product of the links not working and not being able to see the evidence I provided. Below I will provide scans to support how the power works. Basically, the power creates ghostly images that show what everything will do before it happens, as well as enhancing the mind to be able to process the information and react to it.

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Yes, if one were able to react to my reaction that would cause a split with two possible futures shown by the images, but this strategy is unlikely for a few reasons.

1. In-character, my opponent does not know that Freyja possesses precognition.
2. In-character my opponent does not know how my character’s precognition works, even if he were able to eventually figure out that she did have precognition. It required someone with intimate knowledge of how the power works and an enemy who was toying with her and gave her time to formulate a plan for such a counter to be devised and even then the main reason it worked was because her opponent was overconfident and didn’t believe she was a threat. He literally let her come within an inch of striking him purposely just to toy with her.
3. Good luck reacting to the reaction of someone who is equally as fast as you, if not faster with equal or superior skill. Let’s assume you come up with the reacting to my reaction tactic. By the time you perceive my body moving and react to it to change your own action it will be too late. You are inherently at a disadvantage here.
   1. It needs to be noted that the one time this was shown, Vin still got stabbed in the shoulder. Reacting to his reaction was not a foolproof countermeasure, it was a last chance gambit because otherwise she would have di This tactic is only one that can work one time. Once Freyja understands what you are doing she can easily determine which shadow is the correct one when they split. In order for this to work you are reacting to what I do when I react to your future shadow. This means that you are going to go a different direction than the one I am already moving. The key there is that I am already moving. At that moment you perceive me is when the shadow splits. The shadow that goes opposite of the way I was moving will always be the one that changed, otherwise the shadow would not split. It was only effective against Zane because he died the first time and was never given the opportunity to figure this out. He continued to go after the initial shadow he was going at the whole time.
      1. Again, this is less an effective countermeasure than a “hail mary” last ditch effort in desperation.

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That last one is especially important, because yea... Ares is not a mortal being and has control over his own flow of time.

For context, Prodigan is a powerful cosmic entity whose slow metabolism requires those who wish to speak to him, to completely alter the way in which their bodies flow through time.

Mars, the Roman Aspect of Ares, was able to converse with Prodigan just fine. This was all part of a gambit to free Ares from the source wall. After doing so, they undid the schism that had originally caused them to split into separate beings in the first place:

There are several logical problems with the timestream argument.

1. It makes little sense that my opponent would just randomly alter his time flow in this fight, something that to my knowledge Ares has never used in combat and only used on specific instances to speak with other characters who exist in an altered state of time. Whether it is even combat applicable is highly questionable.
2. Furthermore, if my opponent were to alter his own timestream that would alter the speed at which he interacts with the outside world. Whether he speeds up his own timestream or slows down his own timestream the effect of that is that he will move faster or slower relative to my time. If he slowed down his own time he would be moving slower relative to normal time and at a disadvantage in fighting me. If he sped up his own time he would be moving faster relative to normal time and thus breaking the rules against using time manipulation to increase speed.
3. Would my opponent altering the speed of his timestream even have the effect he claims? It seems that it would merely speed up or slow down the shadows I am seeing and reacting to, which would still be synced up with his actual movements.

It should also be noted, that Ares is a powerful telepath, and while I may not be allowed to attack your mind, I see no reason why I can't read your thoughts to gain the same knowledge of the future that you do.

There are a few issues with this argument.

1. 1. My opponent used a scan of Ares mentally attacking Diana to support him reading my mind. Shouldn’t he have used a feat of Ares reading someone’s mind if that is what he is claiming he is going to do?
   2. Yet again, this is another power that has not been demonstrated in-combat. I would need to see a scan of Ares using telepathy mid-combat to read an opponent’s moves and react to them. Otherwise, we cannot know that such an application of his telepathic powers is possible. Why would he not use such an application at all if it were possible?
   3. Burning copper shields the user’s mind from detection and manipulation. This typically takes the form of shielding them from emotional allomancy and concealing them and others from seekers, but can also shield from an Awakener’s life sense, secretspren, etc. Furthermore, the author has confirmed that Smokers (copper users) do the same thing as the Aviar in the Cosmere story Sixth of the Dusk. In that story Aviar have the power to shield the psychic presence of themselves and others. The predators in that world hunt people by tracking their minds, which the Aviar can shield, which is why the main character has one that goes with him everywhere he does.
      
      1. Before my opponent brings it up, having your copper on is standard procedure for Mistborn so that they are not detected or influenced by emotional allomancy.

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Anyways, I'm not seeing anything regarding an "infinite feedback loop". It does say something about "nigh infinite" power, but... that's a rather relative term. What appears "nigh omnipotent" to characters who operate in the street to castle level range, may very well be entirely insignificant to someone who deals with the levels of force that can destroy entire continents.

This argument would make sense, if the evidence provided was from the perspective of a character. However that is not the case and there are a few reasons the argument falls flat.

1. This statement is an official statement provided by the author to explain how his magic system works. This context negates the idea that the statement is relative to a certain character’s perspective.
2. Nor is the universe the books take place in an inherently street level universe. In the books some characters have demonstrated planetary level reality manipulation, matter manipulation, time manipulation, etc. So again, it is not a statement that is colored by being relative to a street level perspective.
3. Feats from the books align with the statement. For example, the Lord Ruler used feruchemy compounding to rule over an empire that lasted over a thousand years and appeared to be a young man, even surprising the main character with how young he appeared. In another instance he was able to instantly regenerate from a skeleton.
4. The power of allomancy that fuels compounding is derived from the power of the shard preservation. As the author states, compounding is fueling your feruchemy with the power of preservation. With just a segment of preservation’s power the Lord Ruler was able to move the planet and alter its orbit, changed geography and biology on a planetary scale with a hand wave, shifted the planet’s crust, and created dozens of entirely new species with specific roles, including some of which were sentient.

So the well of power being drawn from scales to being able to provide the kind of power I am citing in this debate. There is no NLF being employed here. The mechanics of the ability, the writer’s own words, and the feats written into the books support the scale of feruchemy I am arguing for and the precision to use it within the limits of the tournament.

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Your goal appears to involve consuming large amounts of various metal with Allomancy, and immediately storing it within the Bands of Mourning, then drawing from said storages via Feruchemy once the fight begins.... Is that an accurate assessment?

If so, then a few questions:

How long does it take to consume a piece of metal with Allomancy?

How long does it take to store your power through Feruchemy?

How long does the power boost from Feruchemy and Allomancy last?

If you start to run out of power, how easily can you replenish it in the midst of combat?

How much energy can actually be stored in a single piece of metal or inside those "Bands of Mourning"?

How much metal are you actually able to carry on your person?

That is generally correct, though it really would not require large amounts of metals. Also, the bands already have stored a considerable amount of power.

• Marasi, who first tapped power from the bands of mourning, was able to move so fast that she created a vacuum by moving her arm and the world seemed to be frozen. It should be noted that she was limited by air resistance. It was stated by the author that steel compounders (compounding speed) are limited by air resistance, which would cause them to burn up if they moved too fast.

• Waxillium, who received the bands after Marasi, stated that he still felt as if he could level cities and build them up anew with the power. This was even after Marasi used them for a few minutes and after he had used them to blow straight through the roof of catacombs beneath a temple where he had been buried. After himself drawing on the bands for a few minutes he still wagered that he would be able to survive a nuke-level explosion. Also note that the bands revived Waxillium from death prior to all of this.

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1. Burning a metal to create an effect is instant. Characters throughout the series down a vial of metals and instantly draw on that power.
2. Storing power is also instantaneous. The moment you decide to store it begins storing and the moment you decide to tap your reserve it is released.
3. Feruchemy and allomancy last different periods of time.
   
   1. The length of time feruchemy can be drawn on depends on how much of the attribute is stored and what rate you are tapping it. For example, if you store half your weight, you can tap that weight and become 1.5x heavier than normal for the same amount of time. However, you can also draw that weight out at an increased rate, causing it to last a lower period of time. In the example above you could make yourself 2x heavier, but the length of time you could maintain that weight would be cut in half.
   2. Allomancy is different. It burns at basically two set rates, normal burning and a flare. During a flare more power is given, but the metal is used up faster. How long a metal lasts also depend on the type of metal. A single vial of tin or copper can last all day, whereas a single vial of pewter would last maybe 10 minutes. Most of the other metals will last somewhere in between.
4. Replenishing metals during combat is easy and characters in the series do it relatively often. It simply requires them to gulp down a vial of solution with metal flakes.
   1. It should be noted that out of the sixteen metals available to me, I am only focusing on a very small handful of them here. Normal human Mistborns can and have ingested several metals at once. Most Mistborns for example have reserves of tin, pewter, steel, iron, bronze, copper, zinc, and brass any time they are going into a combat situation. I am only focusing on steel, pewter, copper and atium.
5. That is a good question. Relatively small pieces of metal have stored very large reserves of feruchemical power. For example, the Lord Ruler stored his nearly unlimited health in gold rings that he wore on his hand and stored youth that made him ageless at over a thousand years old in bracelets on his arms. Wax has normal bracers that he has filled with more weight than several train cars and then enough weight to level a building and there was no implication he had ever reached anywhere near his storage limit. Bleeder easily stored enough speed to move at hypersonic speeds for an extended period of time in a spike about the size of a nail.

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While we don’t know the exact upper bounds of the bands of mourning, we do know that they are the most powerful metalminds shown in the series. The Lord Ruler’s atium bracelets are smaller and were able to store over a millenia of age. Since strength, and maybe a tiny bit of speed are pretty much all I would be storing, I don’t see any reason to believe they would not be functional as I have argued them.

7. I requested unlimited metal reserves to accompany my item under the typical understanding that items that are necessary to use a special item or power can be included with said item or power.

At least I'm assuming your character's speed is near the cap. You didn't actually post much on the subject, so all I really have to go on is your word.

Except that I posted a direct statement from an official published encyclopedia that claims he fights at the speed of light. That may have been a casualty of comicvine butchering my links though. I have reposted the image below. If that isn’t enough, here is a statement written by the writer himself. Yes, I’m aware it says faster than the speed of light, but by storing speed I would be able to place myself at the limit anyway.

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Even if we assume your speed is equal to mine and that your precognition is not only functioning properly but is also infallible, that still does not make your character unbeatable.

I never suggested my character would be unbeatable, merely that I would hold a distinct advantage.

Even worse for you, is that I can even limit your mobility, by harnessing the energy of your equipment in order to telekinetically manipulate it:

Hmm. That doesn’t sound like standard energy manipulation.

I suppose that would be relevant, if I threw my weapon at you. Do you have any feats of manipulating weapons that are not projectiles? Weapons that are currently in their user’s hand? If projectiles are all you have then it won’t be particularly useful in this fight as I am not really a projectile-based fighter. Not that it really matters as I can dismiss and re-summon my weapons at will. Fighters have even done so mid-blade swing to bypass an opponent’s blade.

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He's even casually rag-dolled Wonder Woman and nearly killed her by shaking the very fabric of space:

Telekinetically ragdolling a character a few tiers above the limits. Huh, definitely seems like an appropriate power for a sub-planetary level tournament. *Eye roll*.

So yea. No matter how evasive your character is, it's only a matter of time before she gets overwhelmed and defeated. The longer the fight goes on, the weaker she is going to get.

Is that because you’re using a skyfather-level power in a sub-planetary fight? Yes, that seems legit.

And the weaker I’m going to get because what again? The fact you’re immune to godly powers and leech them like a vampire. Again, seems legit.

The magic of Ares can corrode and kill even the God of the Dead, himself:

Note to my opponent:

Dude, you’re not doing yourself favors. Do you have a compulsion or something? You’re posting feats of Ares shaking reality and owning people several orders more powerful than is allowed in this tournament. Not to mention Desak being saved from the Odinforce wiping him from existence with the amulet. Are you allergic to a fair fight? Do you not think you could win with an appropriate power level? I'm having a hard time figuring out why you would use Skyfather level powers in a sub-planetary tournament.

Back to the voters:

Frankly, I do not want to have to make this argument, but my opponent is giving me no choice. He is posting feats of Ares slapping around Wonder Woman with telekinesis and no-selling reality warping from Odinforce Thor. These are showings so clearly and obviously beyond the scale of this tournament that they need to be pointed out.

I would rather spend my time addressing other aspects of the debate, but it is what it is.

My opponent has largely ignored my ability to make surfaces frictionless to others, which is a significant disadvantage for him. As I have shown, I can make the immediate area where we are clashing fictionless, which means Achilles is going to look like this:

Notably, the power does not affect me, so while he struggles to maintain any kind of footing I will have sure footing, a massive advantage in my favor, particularly when my opponent doesn’t know about it and has stated it is his intention to move into close quarters to engage me. It will only take one move to take advantage and use it to land a blow that will turn the tides of the fight.

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I mean it literally says any power, but I’ll leave it to the voters to judge.

Energy is the capacity to do work. Power, is the rate at which energy is transferred.

Technically speaking, absorbing "energy" isn't actually possible, as the act of absorbing it is to transfer and convert it, thus... by definition, you are absorbing "power", not energy.

Of course, this is all purely semantical. There's no real, practical, difference between energy and power, unless you're performing calculations for your physics test.

Any power implies other forms of power such as matter manipulation, reality warping, soul manipulation, magic or basically any other offensive power, not just pure energy blasts.

All of these things are direct applications of energy. Just because that energy isn't a visible thing (Although said energy was absolutely visible in the scan you showed), does not mean that it's not there.

Whenever manipulating someone's molecules, soul, or reality, you are harnessing some form of energy and applying it directly to their being. Thus, in the case of Desak, you'd be giving him direct access to something that he can absorb.

Even disregarding the above, neither soul attacks, mind attacks, (direct) matter manipulation, or (direct) reality warping, are allowed in the tourney to begin with. If the only argument you have, for my power being "unfair", is that it can absorb types of attacks that you're not even allowed to do, then it's a poor argument all around.

Wielding the power to alter reality, Thor was unable to do ANYTHING to Desak.

Well that's not true. Thor KILLED Desak... TWICE!

You know how? He hit him.... He hit him, really really hard:

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With the power to reform stars, reconstruct a moon on a molecular level, and the ability to bend time and space to his whims, Thor could not do anything to Desak while he was protected by the amulet.

Not sure what stars Thor has "reformed", but that's certainly not a level in which Thor is typically capable of operating at even with the Odin Force. If you knew anything about Thor, you'd know that he has a mental block that immensely limits how much power he can accessing.

You are correct, in that he did indeed reconstruct a moon, but that's hardly beyond the limits of this tourney:

I don't know what the intended cut off is, for "multi-continent level", but... if you took The Americas, added Eurasia, and smashed them into a ball; it probably wouldn't be too far off from the moon, in mass.

Even if we did say that moon level pushes the limits a bit; the fact is, the moon feat was one that Thor was only barely able to accomplish:

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He literally passed out from exhaustion, and this instance took place right between Desak's first and second defeat; making it... by far... the most relevant "upper limit" showing. At least, in so far, as to how it pertains to Desak's performance against the character.

And despite Desak's claim of being "immune" to Thor's power, Thor was very clearly using the Odin Force to disintegrate chunks of Desak's body in the very next issue:

It was only by absorbing the Odin Force and using it to mend and empower himself, that he was able to adapt and develop the resistances necessary to fully recover. There's clearly a limit to how much energy Desak can absorb at once... While that limit can go up depending on how powerful he becomes; at least my character has to actually absorb your attacks and build himself up to the limits as opposed to your whole "infinite feed-back loop" argument.

What really annoys me here, is that the above scan was among the stack that YOU posted. So once again, you already knew that what you were saying was false, and yet you chose to argue it regardless.

Loki stated that Desak with the amulet was a Celestial level threat

A threat level is not a statement of power. Case in point, one of the biggest "threats" in DC is a man who has no superpowers whatsoever. I think we all know who I'm referring to.

In any case, Loki was just trying to justify his usage of a dangerous wildcard such as the Destroyer Armor. He knew Thor was angry at him, and would have said anything to get Thor off his back.

Beta Ray Bill compared him to Galactus in power after he annihilated the entire Greek Pantheon.

Beta Ray Bill's statement was purely conjecture and nothing else. The fact is, they had no idea who killed the Greek Gods or how. Bill assumed it requires Galactus level of power, because he didn't know who Desak is or how he functions. There's a difference between defeating a powerful threat because you're able to use their own power against them, and simply overpowering said threat with brute force.

Furthermore, this whole thing was in a hypothetical future. It never actually happened.

Desak is a character who gets more powerful, the more gods he kills, and the more energy he absorbs. So perhaps, in this hypothetical timeline, Desak did absorb enough energy to "rival Galactus". Either way, this is not a version of the character who ever made an actual appearance, and thus he has no place in our CaV discussion.

Well, despite his claims to the contrary, the ability to eat skyfather-level reality warping and magic tends to unbalance the game when all of your opponents have the type of offensive powers this item would make you immune to.

The ability to absorb or counter an attack from a being more powerful than one's self is hardly unique to Desak. If I showed a similar feat for a more popular character that everyone already knows and accepts as a high tier (especially one lacking the "anti-god" thematic, despite being capable of the same feats), you wouldn't bat an eyelash.

• Absorbing Man
• Quasar
• Surfer
• Sphinx
• Cosmic Hulk
• Super Adaptoid
• Awesome Andy

Absorbing Man has absorbed the Odin Force:

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Quaser has absorbed Phoenix Force:

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Adaptoid has absorbed Cosmic Cube energy, etc.

All of these characters have absorption feats on a similar level to Desak, and yet all of them are considered high tier, and consistently used in high tier tourneys.

If your only means of claiming victory in a tourney is some form of direct energy blast or hax, then that's your fault. You chose to put all your eggs in one basket, you don't get to cry that it's "unfair" when someone has a counter.

All of this aside, even if my opponent’s power was merely “energy absorption”, skyfather level energy absorption would not be appropriate for this tournament.

The ability to absorb and adapt to a skyfather's energy or even skyfather levels of energy, is not the same as having actual "skyfather level" energy absorption.

Take the Sphynx, for example. The Sphynx is a character who mostly operates within the high tier range.

His energy absorption, on the other hand, is incredibly potent. He can even absorb and adapt to energies that bend reality itself. At one point he was able to amass so much power, that he went toe to toe with even the likes of Galactus:

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But, the Sphynx does NOT have "skyfather level energy absorption". Galactus has "Skyfather level energy absorption". And when a being with actual "skyfather level energy absorption" encounters a character who is merely capable of absorbing and handling energies of that level, this is the result:

There is a reason there aren’t people walking around with Galactus as a power set and the infinity gauntlet as an item.

This coming from the guy with a supposedly "infinite" power source which they can use to "infinitely amp" all of their stats? I mean, I understand that you're capping everything at "exactly the limit", but still.... Your arguments are quite ironic.

Anyways, neither my character's power level nor itemization are beyond the limits of the tourney.

There's a massive performance difference between Galactus casually draining Sphynx dry, and my character soaking up energy blasts or leaching his opponent to slowly gain an edge.

The fact of the matter is, the Amulet has huge limitations that make it completely different from power negation. Despite all your semantics and other diversionary tactics, nothing you have argued changes this fact.

Again:

• If I had "power negation", you would not be able to summon a shard blade at all.
• If I had "power negation", you would not be able to use precognition.
• If I had "power negation", you would not be able to adjust your stats using "feruchemy".
• If I had "power negation", you would not be able to fly, create a frictionless floor, or use any of the other magics that the shard blade appears to grant your character access to.

My ability to absorb "power", as you put it, does not make you "powerless". It just forces you to use your powers in ways other than "I blast you in the face".

Perhaps requires too much thought and creativity to ask for.

I suppose that would be relevant, if I threw my weapon at you. Do you have any feats of manipulating weapons that are not projectiles? Weapons that are currently in their user’s hand? If projectiles are all you have then it won’t be particularly useful in this fight as I am not really a projectile-based fighter.

As far as I can recall, Desak has never manipulated an enemy's weapon while it was still in their hand. My character however, is not Desak. My character does not fight like Desak. My character's combat style is primarily based on his skillset, Pyrrha.

The reason Desak has never manipulated a weapon his opponent was actively holding is presumably one (or each) of the following:

• Perhaps it's simply not in character to do so. Unlike Pyrrha.
• Perhaps he lacks the skill to manipulate his opponent's weapon in the midst of a melee confrontation... Unlike Pyrrha.
• Or perhaps his TK is simply incapable of overcoming the raw physical strength of his opponent's grip.... which Pyrrha, typically, does not even try to do.

Now obviously, if you're one who subscribes to the "feats or nothing" logic, of vine, then there's not much else to say here. Personally, I think that's a rather "anti-fun" way of looking at things. Especially in a character building tourney, where the whole point is to explore the different ways powers can be utilized when mix and matched with other items or skillsets.

Not that it matters much in the long run, since Ares DOES have feats of directly using TK on his opponents.

Telekinetically ragdolling a character a few tiers above the limits. Huh, definitely seems like an appropriate power for a sub-planetary level tournament.*Eye roll*.

Wonder Woman is most certainly NOT "a few tiers" above the limits. In fact, she's not even AT the limits of the tourney. Certainly not any Wonder Woman that Ares can claim to scale off of.

In fact, in the "Part 2" of the story run that the TK feat was pulled from; Wonder Woman could only barely withstand holding the Pandora Demons:

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As you can see in the second scan, their struggle was causing Earthquakes on a global scale. Impressive? Yes... Does it put her at the peak of this tourney? No... As a strength feat, I'd say it's maybe comparable to destroying a single continent, but even that would be rather generous.

owning people several orders more powerful than is allowed in this tournament.

He stabbed him in the back... >_>

Also the Greek Gods (With the exception of Ares, Athena, and Aphrodite) are weakening due to the modern age

Are you allergic to a fair fight? Do you not think you could win with an appropriate power level? I'm having a hard time figuring out why you would use Skyfather level powers in a sub-planetary tournament.

I think the better question is, are you allergic to addressing what's actually written? Do you not think you can win without completely fabricating things about your opponent's characters that were never said, shown, or argued; all so that you can complain about how "broken and unfair" the matchup is?

I mean really now... I didn't argue that Ares's telekinesis would be "at the very limits" of the tourney. Hell, I didn't even try to claim that my character would overpower yours using this ability. All I claimed was that I can use telekinesis to hinder your attacks and movements, in order to gain an edge in combat.

He is posting feats of Ares slapping around Wonder Woman with telekinesis and no-selling reality warping from Odinforce Thor. These are showings so clearly and obviously beyond the scale of this tournament that they need to be pointed out.

Tell me you don't know anything about comics and the power levels of the characters, without actually saying that you don't know anything about comics and the power levels of the characters...

And why are you so fixated on resisting a reality warping attack? Was that your original plan? Were you going to reality warp me out of existence? That's not allowed by the rules, last time I checked, so how is it even relevant?

But... since we're talking directly to the audience here (Because that's totally not an attempt at manipulation, frowned up on by the CaV community at large); guys, tell me... what have I actually used Ares's power for that's unfair or against the rules?

So far, my usage of Ares' magic has been as follows:

• Travelling through mirrors.
• Inherent knowledge of martial arts and battle tactics.
• Telekinesis to "hinder" (Not even overpower) my opponents movements and gain an edge in battle.
• Mindreading.
• Unusual time-flow to "possibly" disrupt precognitive abilities.
• Weapon Creation.
• Corrosive magic to counteract healing factors on weapon-inflicted injures.

That should about sum it up. So yea, if any of these are "super ultra broken skyfather level powers, that shouldn't be allowed" then please state as such in your votes!

Right so, I'm just gonna start speeding through this here, since I'm starting to fatigue and I also don't want to create a large text-wall.

Just because you form an energy construct that can be interacted with, physically, does not make it an actual physical object. Green Lanterns, for example, can create seemingly solid, physical objects, out of light.

But it's still made of light. Characters who can absorb light, can still absorb green lantern weaponry:

If the Shard Blade were truly a physical object, as you claim, then why does it only cut the soul when stabbed through a person? Why do they have to be dead before they can be sliced apart? Shouldn't a solid blade with soul-cutting properties, simply cut both flesh and soul at the same time?

Lets set all that aside from now.

Your weapon is still made of "pure magic". Physical or not, it's still "pure magic". You keep trying to play all these little word games to try and shoehorn powers into these neat little boxes, but that's just not how writers go about defining things.

Something may technically qualify as a "physical object" but that does not mean it's physical in the sense of being exempt from magic or energy absorption. The reason magic and energy absorbers can't absorb physical objects isn't because there's some inherent immunity to absorption that comes with being described as physical, it's because physical objects are typically not made of "pure magic" or energy.

The Shadblade is not just some enchanted weapon. It is "pure magic". The difference between the Shard Blade and something like Mjolnir or the Blood Axe, is a little something called "Object Persistence".

Mjolnir and the Blood Axe are persistent objects. You can leach the magic out of them all you want, but you're still getting smashed in the face with a solid hunk of metal, being carried by whatever force it was initially swung with.

But if you leach magic from a weapon that's "pure magic", then what's left? Nothing. Because that's all it was... magic...

Do I have an "exact feat" of Desak absorbing a "pure magic solid object"? No... That's not a thing he's encountered before. But I see absolutely no reason why a character who absorbs magic can't absorb something made of "pure magic".

Furthermore, there is a clear precedent for absorption of these "solid magic" objects, within the Mistborne universe itself. In fact, there's an entire magic school built around it!

Yes, I am indeed talking about your own power, Allomancy. Your setting has an entire system built around the burning of metals as a form of magical fuel, and if you look at the table; "God Metals" are clearly among those that can be burned:

If that's not enough for you, then how about a direct statement from the Author himself?

So yea, it's confirmed that Shardblades can also be "burned", aka absorbed, as a source of magic.

And really, the fact that ALL metals, within the Mistborn Universe can be "burned" and that they just "disappear", when burned, leads me to believe that the separation between "physical" and "non-physical" is just not as concrete as in other universes. At least as it pertains to metal, which seem to have an inherent connection to this "Preservation" entity who supplies the power for the Allomancy system.

In the books some characters have demonstrated planetary level reality manipulation, matter manipulation, time manipulation, etc. So again, it is not a statement that is colored by being relative to a street level perspective.

Okay, but how long does it take them to store up enough power to actually reach that level? Does every person with compounding reach these levels? Why stop there? How long can they even maintain that much power?

The power of allomancy that fuels compounding is derived from the power of the shard preservation. As the author states, compounding is fueling your feruchemy with the power of preservation. With just a segment of preservation’s power the Lord Ruler was able to move the planet and alter its orbit, changed geography and biology on a planetary scale with a hand wave, shifted the planet’s crust, and created dozens of entirely new species with specific roles, including some of which were sentient.

Just because you have access to a pool of power that's theoretically infinite, doesn't mean there aren't limits to how quickly you can draw from that source.

With the way you've been portraying your powerset, it's as though anyone with compounding can just freely reach planetary levels of power and beyond, whenever they want. I'm sorry, but you haven't posted anything in any of your scans that convinces me that it's just "that easy".

In fact, other people don't appear to be convinced it's that easy either:

Through compounding the Lord Ruler had access to an infinite cycle of youth and healing

I mean, the wikis seem to disagree with the whole "infinite" thing. Also, this tells me nothing in regards to what you can accomplish with physical strength.

Compounding is powered by the Shard and a fraction of a Shard's power has planetary effect.

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Doesn't say how long it took him to reach this level of power or how long it took him to perform these feats. For all I know, this could have taken days, months, or even years to work his way up to that level, and these feats could have been performed a little bit at a time.

Burning a metal to create an effect is instant. Characters throughout the series down a vial of metals and instantly draw on that power.

Replenishing metals during combat is easy and characters in the series do it relatively often. It simply requires them to gulp down a vial of solution with metal flakes.

Drinking a vile is not instant nor is it easy to do in the middle of a duel... And what happens if your in a shockwave and those vials break?

length of time feruchemy can be drawn on depends on how much of the attribute is stored and what rate you are tapping it. For example, if you store half your weight, you can tap that weight and become 1.5x heavier than normal for the same amount of time. However, you can also draw that weight out at an increased rate, causing it to last a lower period of time. In the example above you could make yourself 2x heavier, but the length of time you could maintain that weight would be cut in half.

Same amount of time as what? How long you stored it? How is that "instant"?

For example, the Lord Ruler stored his nearly unlimited health in gold rings that he wore on his hand and stored youth that made him ageless at over a thousand years old in bracelets on his arms. Wax has normal bracers that he has filled with more weight than several train cars and then enough weight to level a building and there was no implication he had ever reached anywhere near his storage limit. Bleeder easily stored enough speed to move at hypersonic speeds for an extended period of time in a spike about the size of a nail.

I don't know how to convert youth to strength ratios, and leveling buildings is nothing compared to this tourney's tier.

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Again, I'm not seeing anything that's actually impressive by this tourney's standards.

Your initial supply from the Bands of Mourning seems insignificant. You're trying to store up enough strength to reach "the tourney limits", but you didn't actually post any strength feats for your body. How many times do you have to multiply your physical strength before you actually get something relavent?

I requested unlimited metal reserves to accompany my item under the typical understanding that items that are necessary to use a special item or power can be included with said item or power.

Your build says "the necessary metals" not that you have an "unlimited reserve". Surely you're at least limited by how much you can realistically carry on your body, are you not? And again, if these are "vials" what happens if they shatter from the friction and shockwaves of our battle?

I mean... There's just so many logistical issues with what you're trying to do, it's astounding. But whatever, lets move on.

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Seems roughly in the same tier as basic spider senses... Again, what are you going to see if the future is you abruptly dying because of a stab in the back?

Yes, if one were able to react to my reaction that would cause a split with two possible futures shown by the images, but this strategy is unlikely for a few reasons.

If I come at you, aiming for your head, and you start moving, that's going to change my target, would it not?

It makes little sense that my opponent would just randomly alter his time flow in this fight, something that to my knowledge Ares has never used in combat

That's not my point. The point is that a character who can so freely alter their own flow of time, suggests they aren't tethered to the time stream in a conventional way. This sort of thing tends to disrupt low level precognitive abilities. Just look at Spider Senses for example, even basic Limbo Demons, who aren't actively manipulating time in any way, completely disrupt Spider Senses with their presence:

If he sped up his own time he would be moving faster relative to normal time and thus breaking the rules against using time manipulation to increase speed.

There's no rule against using time manipulation to increase speed, just that you do so to cannot breach the limits.

My opponent used a scan of Ares mentally attacking Diana to support him reading my mind. Shouldn’t he have used a feat of Ares reading someone’s mind if that is what he is claiming he is going to do?

He's literally in her mind making her see hear and feel everything he wants her to see hear and feel. I fail to see how someone can do something that advanced and not also have access to what their thinking. That'd be like playing a video game without a screen.

I would need to see a scan of Ares using telepathy mid-combat to read an opponent’s moves and react to them. Otherwise, we cannot know that such an application of his telepathic powers is possible.

For one, I can easily disappear into the mirror dimension to forget the telepathic connection, if need be. Secondly, Ares was able to casually take control over an army of soldiers and maintain control while battle Wonder Woman:

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Furthermore, the author has confirmed that Smokers (copper users) do the same thing as the Aviar in the Cosmere story Sixth of the Dusk. In that story Aviar have the power to shield the psychic presence of themselves and others. The predators in that world hunt people by tracking their minds, which the Aviar can shield, which is why the main character has one that goes with him everywhere he does

Ares' telepathy can effect Wonder Woman. Diana has the wisdom of a god, which gives her an inherent resistance to telepathic attacks. She was even able to block out Maxwell Lord from her mind, a character whose telepathic power can span across the globe:

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This isn’t a street level tournament though, this is a tournament where people trading blows can cause damage you can see from space. I specifically chose Karate Kid because I never get to use him in street level tournaments, for obvious reasons.

If you truly believe that everything Karate Kid does can be done with "pure skill" by a normal human, and that neither powers nor stats play a part; then he should be usable in street level tourneys since such a thing implies that he's not a high tier.

And yes, Karate Kid’s skill doesn’t make sense, but neither does several other skill sets that were chosen which have skills that could be considered powers.

I don't know what skills you're referring to, but I'll address them if I have to debate them.

It must be noted that there are no rules that even suggest that there is a limit on skills in this way, so no this cannot be a violation of the rules.

There aren't any rules against energy absorption or "power absorption" either...

Anyways, the reason there aren't rules limiting what skills can do, is because the tourney simply isn't balance around gaining powers from skills in the first place.

Karate Kid’s abilities may not make sense, but they are portrayed very consistently. This consistency means that we can know what to expect with KK. The idea that logical conclusions cannot be made about what Karate Kid can or cannot do is insincere, and irrelevant to this debate since the claims I made about Karate Kid are consistent.

If there's no logic behind how he can do something then there is no way to quantify an upper limit. How much durability does it take for "weak points" to stop working?

What exact powers am I gaining through Karate Kid? I’m not shooting energy beams out of my hands or controlling air currents. All I really presented was that he could contend with people physically more dominant than him and that he had the pinnacle of control over his body and mind. To suggest I am trying to gain some kind of superpowers through my skill is not correct. I am trying to establish an edge in skill and say that I can channel my existing strength with maximum skill for optimal striking ability.

You literally showed creating and stopping Earthquakes, as well as ripping the arm off of Equus:

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Look man, the supposed stat disparity that Karate Kid is able to overcome via "pure skill" is quite literally, reality bending. It's toonforce. That's his entire schtick. If you take the toonforce out of it, then all you're let with is "I know every martial arts ever" and that's it.

Furthermore, I don't just have martial knowledge I also have an inherent knowledge of tactics and strategy as well, thus application should not be an issue.