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Posted by TheVengefulBastard (13 posts) 1 year, 7 months ago

Poll: Revan/Malak vs Galen Marek/Starkiller (Clone) (29 votes)

Team 1 52%
Team 2 48%

Both teams are bloodlusted, Morals Off

Team 1

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Team 2

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#1 Edited by deactivated-59c0eef934dfe (918 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd argue team 1. Good fight, though.

EDIT: If it's KotOR Revan, team 2 win.

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#2 Posted by deactivated-5a20a68641bc7 (1969 posts) - - Show Bio

KOTOR Revan, I assume? If so, he and Malak should win but only after a tough fight.

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#3 Edited by echostarlord117 (5609 posts) - - Show Bio

How the hell would KotOR Revan defeat Galen Marek, much less his clone?

On-topic: If it's KotOR Revan, team two WW after a decent fight. If it's anything past KotOR, team one should win with Revan obviously being the MVP.

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#4 Posted by HoboJenkins (209 posts) - - Show Bio

If its Post KOTOR Revan team 1 wins mid diff. If its KOTOR Revan it's alot closer but I'd still side with Team 1. Though it's high diff and Malak would be injured or dead. Team 2 would probably take a few rounds but not the majority.

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#5 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

If this is Revan from the novel or SWTOR then he can solo actually. Adding Malak is an overkill.

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#6 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio


Revan and Malak take this.

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#7 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 wins if it's KOTOR Revan, Team 1 wrecks house with Prime Revan.

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#8 Posted by slayne (519 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 wins both rounds.

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#9 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

everyone underestimates KOTOR Revan.

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#10 Posted by GeorgeWBush (11591 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2

Malak is way out of his depth here

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#11 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6025 posts) - - Show Bio
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#12 Edited by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

Which version of Revan? It's quite possible that Darth Revan is the version being used here, which means team 2 wins. Prime Revan though... he can beat both on his own.

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#13 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2586 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol at prime Revan soloing.

Team 2 wins for any incarnation of Revan, aside from SoR Revan. And even that could go either way.

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#14 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by Richard96 (5648 posts) - - Show Bio

Prime revan wrecks, kotor loses

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#16 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

Galen and Starkiller without much trouble. Malak is a weak link.

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#17 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

Which version of Revan? It's quite possible that Darth Revan is the version being used here, which means team 2 wins. Prime Revan though... he can beat both on his own.

@anakon4 said:

If this is Revan from the novel or SWTOR then he can solo actually. Adding Malak is an overkill.

Would love to hear the arguments behind these stances.

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#18 Edited by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

Prime Revan, after suffering an attack capable of destroying all life on a planet (which would quite easily destroy Galen and his clone), managed to fight two strike teams made up of a large number of Force users slightly below Starkiller's level. Which would strongly suggest that he can quite easily take just the two of them on his own at full health.

Also, Galen and his Clone aren't close to Revan's level in sabers at all.

@ordeith

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#19 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: Please make sure you tag me properly or I won't know you've responded. For future reference, the tag isn't visible to me ( or anyone else ) unless it turns green.

To my knowledge, the device capable of destroying all life on Yavin IV ( which is a moon, not a planet btw ) was destroyed by Republic and Imperial forces and the gap in time between when they found out about its existence and when they destroyed it depicts no interactions between Revan and the device. Are you sure you're not confusing it with something else? Even Ant's RT talks about Revan interacting with a device that would have only destroyed all life within a kilometer.

Loading Video...

( 6:53:50 )

Theron Shan: A "device for mass ritual sacrifice?" That's seriously what he called it?

Darth Marr: Capable of killing every living thing on this moon, as fuel for the Emperor's ressurection.

( 6:58:20 )

Theron Shan: All units report success. The weapon has been shut down, and all Revanites neutralized. Only one more left to deal with.

From Ant's blog:

No Caption Provided

What feat does any member of the strike team have that puts them "slightly below" either Galen or Starkiller?

Funny, I would actually say the same thing but in reverse. Revan has no feats or accolades that compare to Galen or Starkiller's own in this regard so I admit I'm curios to see how you came to your conclusion.

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#20 Edited by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith You literally just quoted the quote that says it is capable of destroying all life on the moon, so there's that. And Revan began channeling before they found the device, but was interrupted mid-ritual.

Nox, Wrath, HoT, and Barsen'Thor all have feats that place them probably above Starkiller in lightsaber skills and just below in terms of force power. I could list a bunch of their force feats if you'd like.

What, in sabers or in force? Because Revan is better in both by a lot.

For sabers, he's a confirmed master of all forms, as well as Trakata, and he incorporated Mandolorian and Echani fighting styles into his own. He also casually slaughtered armies on multiple occasions. These aren't just non-force users like stormtroopers. These are Dark Jedi, both masters and apprentices. He also fought multiple Jedi and Sith at once on Yavin, all while deflecting and absorbing blaster fire and force attacks. Starkiller isn't anywhere near that level in terms of dueling.

As for force powers, I feel like I've explained this to you before, but I can go into detail again if need be.

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#21 Posted by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio

Malak is legitimately a distraction here.

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#22 Posted by echostarlord117 (5609 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76 said:

Also, Galen and his Clone aren't close to Revan's level in sabers at all.

No Caption Provided

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#23 Posted by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio
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#24 Edited by echostarlord117 (5609 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76: Well, first off, Galen could stand up to Shaak Ti in lightsaber combat. He did the same against weakened Darth Vader. Second off, simply referring to @zapan871's RT for accolades proves that he was no slouch.

Under Vader's relentless tutelage, the Apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Also, seeing as he was a user of Juyo, one could extrapolate that he had to have mastered at least to some extent many lightsaber forms, which already makes one well above average in terms of lightsaber skill.

Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII.

Insider 62: Fightsaber

He also regularly defeated PROXY, both pre-prime and during his prime, even while the robot was amped.

The clone has all of the dueling abilities of the original Starkiller so all of what I've said applies to him as well.

I'm not saying that he'd defeat prime Revan in a lightsaber duel, but to say that Revan just totally eclipses Starkiller in terms of skill is lowballing Galen and his clone. They're definitely top-tier duelists, and as individuals could definitely at least hold their own against Revan.

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#25 Edited by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76 said:

@ordeith You literally just quoted the quote that says it is capable of destroying all life on the moon, so there's that. And Revan began channeling before they found the device, but was interrupted mid-ritual.

Nox, Wrath, HoT, and Barsen'Thor all have feats that place them probably above Starkiller in lightsaber skills and just below in terms of force power. I could list a bunch of their force feats if you'd like.

What, in sabers or in force? Because Revan is better in both by a lot.

For sabers, he's a confirmed master of all forms, as well as Trakata, and he incorporated Mandolorian and Echani fighting styles into his own. He also casually slaughtered armies on multiple occasions. These aren't just non-force users like stormtroopers. These are Dark Jedi, both masters and apprentices. He also fought multiple Jedi and Sith at once on Yavin, all while deflecting and absorbing blaster fire and force attacks. Starkiller isn't anywhere near that level in terms of dueling.

As for force powers, I feel like I've explained this to you before, but I can go into detail again if need be.

You're right, I did. I did this purposefully to show you that the device's energy you're claiming Revan absorbed couldn't have been the one capable of destroying all life on the moon ( at least given what's depicted in the video ). Can you provide me some evidence for the device Revan channeled/directed energy from being the one that was capable of destroying life on the moon and Revan absorbing aforementioned moon wiping energy after the device was destroyed/when the ritual was interrupted? An example of either would work.

I would like you to do so, yes.

He's inferior both as a Force user and lightsaber combatant imo so I'd appreciate anything you can post that would help you argue your position.

Galen as of the start of the game has nearly "perfected lightsaber combat" as a whole. Revan's accolade of being skilled ( not a master ) in all forms doesn't compare. And I don't see how Revan beating a lot of Dark Jedi places him above Galen who defeated Vader in lightsaber combat. Vader being somebody who's vastly above the likes of early Clone Wars Ventress who can casually defeat 3 Jedi simultaneously ( one of those Jedi being K'Kruhk ).

You're going to need to.

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#26 Posted by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

@echostarlord117: I never said eclipse, but if that's what you thought I mean, my apologies. But saying it would be a close fight isnt true. Revan has mastered the same stuff Starkiller did + more, and he's fought a lot more opponents. But I can't say his feats are bad.

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#27 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:
@necromancer76 said:

Which version of Revan? It's quite possible that Darth Revan is the version being used here, which means team 2 wins. Prime Revan though... he can beat both on his own.

@anakon4 said:

If this is Revan from the novel or SWTOR then he can solo actually. Adding Malak is an overkill.

Would love to hear the arguments behind these stances.

Revan from novel was stomping Emperor's guard in sword fight, killed memeber of the Dark Council and managed to hold off the Emperor himself. SWTOR Revan was defeated only in combination of at least 3 force sensitives plus some of the best soldiers of their time. Not to mention he uses Force techniques FU characters can only dream off.

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#28 Edited by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: I'm so lost on what you are trying to explain here. Revan knew a ritual that would amplify the power of the Machine Core so it could kill all life on the moon. He was interrupted during the ritual, and all of that energy that he was channeling (the energy that could wipe out all life on the moon) backlashed on him. And he SURVIVED. That alone makes him infinitely more durable than Starkiller.

"Dealing sufficient damage will break this channel. Through masterful control of the Force, Revan has created a Force resonance with The Machine's core, and is channeling its power into an immense attack."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

"[Revan has] suffered a powerful backlash while channeling an immense amount of Force energy."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

Ok well, we'll start with Nox. He has lightning that can disintegrate people, force walking which kind of makes him momentarily invincible, TK that quite easily breaks the barriers of other Jedi, etc. Revan stomped this Sith + multiple other people his/her same level in power. Reminder that these Jedi/Sith become the Outlander to go on and defeat Arcann, Vaylin, weakened Valkorion, etc.

“Sorcerers unleash Force Lightning from a distance, disintegrating their targets with powers like Lightning Strike and Crushing Darkness.”

—Star Wars: The Old Republic (Sith Inquisitor codex)

Darth Nox possesses a pull among ghosts and thus learned the Force Walking ritual, a powerful technique requiring great willpower to bind the spirits of dead Sith and other spirits and allowing the ritualist to draw from their power for attack and defense. In addition, so long as the spirits remain bound, the Sith is practically immortal. The ritual is far easier to perform on a spirit who is willing, and far more difficult to perform when the spirit resists:

“You have a rare pull among ghosts. It’s a source of great power, but it has destroyed many a Sith.”

—Lord Kallig’s Spirit (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

“Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies.”

—SWTOR codex (Force-walking)

Don't know why you are changing what I said. Revan wasn't just skilled in all forms, he mastered them. Which would place him above Starkiller. "Perfected lightsaber combat" can be said for almost any named Jedi/Sith. He struggled with Ti later, did he not? Ti got stomped by Grievous, who also "mastered lightsaber combat." Grievous was still able to be beaten by Dooku, who technically "mastered lightsaber combat,' who, in turn, could get stomped by Sidious. So... the accolade is very vague.

I took this from another user's argument suggesting Maul is better than Starkiller (which only improves my argument because Revan is better than Maul: "Vader is vastly more powerful than Starkiller, evidenced by the fact he Gripped SK and TK disarmed him. Starkiller only beat Vader by drawing from Force Fury (akin to Force Rage) after his sweetheart Juno supposedly died at Vader's hand, and using Amped Force Lightning on Vader's control thingy on his chest that already had been damaged by a lightsaber slash from Juno."

Seeing as how Starkiller "defeated" Vader because of a rage amp, I'm still going to side with Revan single-handedly stomping armies of Sith vastly pre-prime.

Let's see here. TK first. We have this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Ah yes, I love this one. This makes it easy. Here, we have Revan (weakened from the ritual that can kill all life, remember?) casually pulling everyone here with TK and then sending them flying outward. Then, he breaks all of their force barriers, puts them in stasis, and slowly drains them all to death (and would have if not for exterior aid AKA Light Revan). So we can end this right here. All Revan has to do is break through Starkiller's force barrier, put him in stasis, then drain him until he dies. So YOU have to argue that Starkiller is greater than Darth Nox/Wrath/HoT/Barsen'Thor, Marr, Satele, and Beniko combined. Keep in mind that Nox is already just below Starkiller.

No Caption Provided

Then we have this one. Revan, while pre-prime and weakened from 300 straight years of torture, held 30+ meteors in the air and then accelerated them into the ground with such force that they disintegrated upon impact. Which means if this hit Starkiller, he'd probably die instantly.

I'm sure you're going to bring up the frigate feat right? Well, here's a quote from another user: "A good part of the frigate is made of glass, which really isn't hard to shatter. We also have to take into account fuel barrels, because as we see in the game, there are tons of them- they also aren't hard to explode." Take that as you will. Regardless, Revan can disintegrate tall rock pillars in the middle of battle without even paying attention because he's fighting multiple Jedi and Sith at the same time.

Oh, and yes, he can collapse a building pre-prime.

Another way he can easily win is TP. Revan's TP feats are some of the greatest of all time, rivaling GM Luke and Unu'Thul. As he was getting tortured, Revan was beating Vitiate and the Dread Masters in a TP fight. So unless you think Starkiller is above them in terms of TP, then Revan can tell Starkiller to just stab himself.

Oh, but Starkiller has powerful force lightning you say? Look here:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Starkiller's lightning will not penetrate that. Literally invulnerable without the assistance of Light Revan.

Regardless, Revan's force storm insta-killed 8 people at once:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Did you see all the Republic soldiers go bye-bye?

And of course... Revan, pre prime and literally minutes after 3 years of torture (and still suffering from drugs used to torture him), broke through Nyriss's barrier and disintegrated her.

Almost forgot about this one:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

That's right. Teleportation. What is stopping Revan from teleporting behind Starkiller and stabbing him in the back? Oh right. Nothing.

Or...Starkiller's oh-so-powerful lightning will hit open air because Revan will teleport away before it hits (or he can create his indestructible force barrier or use tutaminis like he did agaisnt Nyriss. They all work.)

Raw power you say? Look at this:

No Caption Provided

Revan had the power to create groundquakes, storms, and heavy winds because he was angry. I don't recall Starkiller changing the environment on that level because of raw power.

I haven't even gone over balance of the force (something that no one else can do except the Father), force healing, force slow, or the fact that he can return to life. But I think you get the idea.

Remember, every above feat is either pre-prime or weakened from an attack capable of destroying all life on a moon. Think of him full power.

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#29 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@necromancer76 said:

Which version of Revan? It's quite possible that Darth Revan is the version being used here, which means team 2 wins. Prime Revan though... he can beat both on his own.

@anakon4 said:

If this is Revan from the novel or SWTOR then he can solo actually. Adding Malak is an overkill.

Would love to hear the arguments behind these stances.

Revan from novel was stomping Emperor's guard in sword fight, killed memeber of the Dark Council and managed to hold off the Emperor himself. SWTOR Revan was defeated only in combination of at least 3 force sensitives plus some of the best soldiers of their time. Not to mention he uses Force techniques FU characters can only dream off.

And how is any of what you mentioned better then beating Vader in lightsaber combat, destroying superstructures with the Force or holding off an even more powerful Emperor in Sidious? All 3 Force sensitives combined don't hold a candle to Marek's power going by their respective feats/accolades. Revan having greater versatility as a Force user is a definite advantage but it doesn't make up for his inferiority as a Force user and lightsaber combatant.

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#30 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:
@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@necromancer76 said:

Which version of Revan? It's quite possible that Darth Revan is the version being used here, which means team 2 wins. Prime Revan though... he can beat both on his own.

@anakon4 said:

If this is Revan from the novel or SWTOR then he can solo actually. Adding Malak is an overkill.

Would love to hear the arguments behind these stances.

Revan from novel was stomping Emperor's guard in sword fight, killed memeber of the Dark Council and managed to hold off the Emperor himself. SWTOR Revan was defeated only in combination of at least 3 force sensitives plus some of the best soldiers of their time. Not to mention he uses Force techniques FU characters can only dream off.

And how is any of what you mentioned better then beating Vader in lightsaber combat, destroying superstructures with the Force or holding off an even more powerful Emperor in Sidious? All 3 Force sensitives combined don't hold a candle to Marek's power going by their respective feats/accolades. Revan having greater versatility as a Force user is a definite advantage but it doesn't make up for his inferiority as a Force user and lightsaber combatant.

Starkiller won against pre ANH Vader which is around Ben Kenobi level.

Clone never fairly beat Vader, he won under very specific circumstances.

Holding against Sidious is PIS and I would really like to know what superstructures you mean.

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#31 Edited by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76 said:

@ordeith: I'm so lost on what you are trying to explain here. Revan knew a ritual that would amplify the power of the Machine Core so it could kill all life on the moon. He was interrupted during the ritual, and all of that energy that he was channeling (the energy that could wipe out all life on the moon) backlashed on him. And he SURVIVED. That alone makes him infinitely more durable than Starkiller.

"Dealing sufficient damage will break this channel. Through masterful control of the Force, Revan has created a Force resonance with The Machine's core, and is channeling its power into an immense attack."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

"[Revan has] suffered a powerful backlash while channeling an immense amount of Force energy."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic

I'm trying to explain that, according to the video I linked, the Machine Core and the device that was capable of destroying all life on the moon seem to be two different machines entirely unless I'm missing something. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd appreciate it if you posted it. Also, even if the Machine Core had been capable of wiping out all life on the moon, there's nothing to suggest the amount of energy Revan was channeling had reached the level of surface wiping at the point the ritual was interrupted. Even if the feat occurred exactly as you described this still wouldn't place Revan above Galen in durability given Galen defended against the lightning being generated by himself and a desperate Sidious that was piercing both of their Force defenses.

"The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations." - The Force Unleashed.

No Caption Provided

Ok well, we'll start with Nox. He has lightning that can disintegrate people, force walking which kind of makes him momentarily invincible, TK that quite easily breaks the barriers of other Jedi, etc. Revan stomped this Sith + multiple other people his/her same level in power. Reminder that these Jedi/Sith become the Outlander to go on and defeat Arcann, Vaylin, weakened Valkorion, etc.

“Sorcerers unleash Force Lightning from a distance, disintegrating their targets with powers like Lightning Strike and Crushing Darkness.”

—Star Wars: The Old Republic (Sith Inquisitor codex)

Having Force lightning that can disintegrate people isn't comparable to having Force lightning that can power the hyperdrives of downed cruisers or power cannons with enough energy to pierce orbital superstructures and shielded Star Destroyers. You're going to need to supply me with a quote stating that once is "invincible" whilst Force walking otherwise we can only assess its ability to protect the user from harm via what it has been shown to protect against. Having TK that breaks through the barriers of other Jedi isn't comparable to Galen being able to telekinetically dominate Vader. I'm aware. Considering none of the feats you mentioned put Nox above a fraction of Galen's power, let alone a third, I don't see why I should be impressed.

"-effectively sealing himself into the hyperdrive access room. No matter. The walls were- weak with metal fatigue. He could punch out in an instant when he was finished. Kneeling in front of the turbines, he took a handful of cables in both hands and called on the Force. Energy surged through him, making him stiffen. Sith lightning sparked from his skin and snaked through the ragged metal walls, floor, and ceiling. Distantly he heard screams as the many beings inside the wrecked corvette suffered from the aftereffects. He ignored them, along with the smell of smoke rising from his own tattered uniform. Focus, he told himself. Undirected power was power wasted. Gritting his teeth, he gathered the energy and directed it down his arms, into his hands. Blue light strobed across his vision as the lightning flowed into the wires and from there into the hyperdrive mi bines. Groaning, then shrieking, the massive engine came alive. Damaged, completely out of alignment, and barely controllable, the turbine shook with propulsive power, then strained against the braces still holding it to the corvette's warped chassis. The deck kicked underneath the apprentice. He swayed as the entire corvette shifted. With a terrible sound, it began to move, plowing a brutal furrow through the surrounding rubbish. He could picture it clearly in his imagination and through the vibrant flow of the Force. As lightning poured through him and into the engine, it pushed the stricken corvette physically out of his path. I he way to the Temple was now clear. When he sensed that it had gone far enough, he relaxed his concentration. Smaller discharges of energy skittered across his skin. Somewhat shakily, he stood, then almost toppled over as the engine continued to fire, sending the corvette onward, out of his Control. He hadn't expected that. There was enough residual potential in the turbine to keep it running for dozens of seconds." - The Force Unleashed.

No Caption Provided

Darth Nox possesses a pull among ghosts and thus learned the Force Walking ritual, a powerful technique requiring great willpower to bind the spirits of dead Sith and other spirits and allowing the ritualist to draw from their power for attack and defense. In addition, so long as the spirits remain bound, the Sith is practically immortal. The ritual is far easier to perform on a spirit who is willing, and far more difficult to perform when the spirit resists:

“You have a rare pull among ghosts. It’s a source of great power, but it has destroyed many a Sith.”

—Lord Kallig’s Spirit (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

“Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies.”

—SWTOR codex (Force-walking)

I would ask you for a quote regarding Nox's "practical immortality" but seeing as it has essentially zero relevance to the discussion maybe it's more fitting that I ask you why you even brought it up.

Don't know why you are changing what I said. Revan wasn't just skilled in all forms, he mastered them. Which would place him above Starkiller. "Perfected lightsaber combat" can be said for almost any named Jedi/Sith. He struggled with Ti later, did he not? Ti got stomped by Grievous, who also "mastered lightsaber combat." Grievous was still able to be beaten by Dooku, who technically "mastered lightsaber combat,' who, in turn, could get stomped by Sidious. So... the accolade is very vague.

There's only one quote that addresses Revan's skill in all seven forms, and that comes from Drew Karpyshyn. He states that though Revan is "skilled in all of them" he's more of a generalist. The only one that you could interpret to mean he'd "mastered" all seven forms would be the quote stating he left the order when it had nothing left to teach him. Considering the fact that that's a character statement from an extremely unreliable source and that an individual is only able to be taught to the extent that they can learn, trying to construe that as Revan having mastered every Force ability and lightsaber technique to their highest degree is completely asinine. Really? Because aside from known battlemasters who were among the best of their era, I don't know of many named characters who this accolade was afforded to. You want to try your hand at listing a few who don't fall that umbrella? He struggled with Ti after fighting through an army of rancors and Force user's who could utilize the Force as easily as humans breathe whilst on a LS nexus where the Darkside was weak and when he was at an initial disadvantage due to their relative positions. After overcoming the latter hindrance he fought evenly with her. This was before increasing in both power and skill. Ti also grew vastly in power between the Clone Wars and the events of TFU given she shifted the alignment of a planetary nexus and was more powerful then individuals like Kazdan Paratus who animated droid armies that fended off Imperial forces for years. Also, there's a difference between "mastering" something and "perfecting" it. While you might have a black belt in karate and technically be a "master" those who have nearly perfected the art will generally be your vast superiors. The accolade isn't vague. Technical skill is only one part of combat. The fact that Sidious is vastly more powerful then Dooku makes it certain that he would win in lightsaber combat despite whatever small gap in skill may exist between them ( even that's debatable ). Similarly, Dooku having taught Grievous everything he knows and actively holding back from teaching him certain things so that he retains an advantage over him is another example of why a character can beat another despite being relatively close in skill and physical ability.

I took this from another user's argument suggesting Maul is better than Starkiller (which only improves my argument because Revan is better than Maul: "Vader is vastly more powerful than Starkiller, evidenced by the fact he Gripped SK and TK disarmed him. Starkiller only beat Vader by drawing from Force Fury (akin to Force Rage) after his sweetheart Juno supposedly died at Vader's hand, and using Amped Force Lightning on Vader's control thingy on his chest that already had been damaged by a lightsaber slash from Juno."

If Maul > Starkiller then he's certainly better then Revan. Though, personally, I think he's solidly below either. Vader TK gripped a Starkiller that had expended massive amounts of Force energy before they ever fought and then accomplished a similar feat by holding Vader against a generator in order to incapacitate him in the Wii version. Per the novel, Starkiller didn't give in to mindless rage even when he wasn't sure if Juno was alive or dead and actually offered Vader a chance to join the Rebel Alliance. Prior to that, they had been fighting evenly.

Seeing as how Starkiller "defeated" Vader because of a rage amp, I'm still going to side with Revan single-handedly stomping armies of Sith vastly pre-prime.

As mentioned, Starkiller was not "enraged" and was actually vastly weakened since he had performed feats like charging a cannon with enough energy to split a shielded Star Destroyer in two and blowing apart half of a 300 meter frigate whilst simultaneously shielding himself from the resulting blast beforehand. Revan also never fought armies of Sith singlehandedly since he was accompanied by his companions throughout the game. The prima guide confirms this.

"Start by fighting to the large main walkway, and continue down it to the first doorway. During this time, Sith apprentices, Dark Jedi, and the finest Sith shock troops are waiting to demolish your party..." - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide.

They're also not fighting these "armies" simultaneously. On the Star Forge, they're fighting through multiple levels of all of which have narrow hallways and very few intersections where Revan and his group could be surrounded.

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3

At worst, Revan and his group could be flanked from either side of a hallway, but given this is the size of the hallways on the Star Forge

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only about 6 opponents ( 3 on either side ) would be able to effectively attack Revan and his group.

The hallways in the Sith academy the are even narrower and there is only 1 opening into and out of rooms. At the very most Revan and his group could be attacked from 4 different directions, though I highly doubt he'd allow himself to be surrounded at one of these junctions given he's considered to be a "tactical genius."

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Considering early Clone Wars Ventress > 3 Jedi and Vader is her vast superior ( TFU Vader > DL Vader > Grievous > end of CW Ventress > early CW Ventress ) it comes down to who has greater endurance. Vader or the "armies" Revan faced. I'm going to side with the being who, according to Lucas, has 80% of Sidious's power over the like of a few dozen Dark Jedi and an academy of Sith apprentices.

"The Sith Training Academy was located on the outskirts of Dreshdae, close to the Valley of the Dark Lords. It was a place where Sith were trained in a similar manner as the Jedi, with hundreds of students receiving instruction from Sith Masters." - Star Wars: Jedi Academy Training Manual.

Let's see here. TK first. We have this:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

Ah yes, I love this one. This makes it easy. Here, we have Revan (weakened from the ritual that can kill all life, remember?)

No, I don't remember. You haven't showed me anything to substantiate that claim as of yet.

casually pulling everyone here with TK and then sending them flying outward. Then, he breaks all of their force barriers, puts them in stasis, and slowly drains them all to death (and would have if not for exterior aid AKA Light Revan).

Oh? There's a quote stating this? Or are you confusing your assumptions with fact again?

So we can end this right here. All Revan has to do is break through Starkiller's force barrier, put him in stasis, then drain him until he dies. So YOU have to argue that Starkiller is greater than Darth Nox/Wrath/HoT/Barsen'Thor, Marr, Satele, and Beniko combined. Keep in mind that Nox is already just below Starkiller.

I don't have to argue anything. You're the one attempting to claim that the strike team Revan faced in SoR is somehow comparable to Galen and Starkiller when none of them have the feats or scaling to put them above a fraction of his power.

No Caption Provided

Then we have this one. Revan, while pre-prime and weakened from 300 straight years of torture, held 30+ meteors in the air and then accelerated them into the ground with such force that they disintegrated upon impact. Which means if this hit Starkiller, he'd probably die instantly.

I admit, I'm curious how you believe the torture Revan underwent affected his combative ability. Given the Exile was sustaining him throughout the entirety of the ordeal and the fact that his energy levels would've replenished themselves in a matter of days, it can't be any shrinkage in the energy available for him to draw from. It's possible you're arguing that damage to his physical body would have hindered him, but given the fact that far weaker Force user's have accomplished physical feats well outside the range of human ability, I don't see that as a viable argument either. A Force user's baseline physicality stops having any meaningful impact after they reach a power level similar to that of Ventress prior to her apprenticeship under Dooku. Yoda's a great example of this, his age only hindering him when he was on death's door. The only viable option left then is that you're suggesting the torture damaged Revan's mental state and, as a result, his ability to draw on the Force. Considering Revan's ability to reason and apply strategically sound tactics were intact and that the splitting of his spirit would've actually caused any doubt or conflict he may have had about the pursuit of his goals to vanish, I sort of doubt that.

TLDR; I don't understand why you believe Revan would have been "weakened" from Vitiate's torture in the sense that it would have affected his combative capabilities to any significant or notable degree.

As for the asteroids, you're either fabricating information or were misinformed when you say that Revan held them up considering they were being sustained by anti-gravity prior to him bringing them down. The asteroids didn't disintegrate on impact either as is made evident by their effect on the surroundings. To accelerate a car sized rock with enough force for it to disintegrate upon impact within a few feet of the ground would have completely destroyed the surrounding area and instantly killed any being without some form of shielding. A far cry from some cracks that fade away after a few seconds. The developers didn't want to litter the ground with rubble animation so they had them disappear upon impact. Your attempts to wank off animating inconsistencies is sad.

I'm sure you're going to bring up the frigate feat right? Well, here's a quote from another user: "A good part of the frigate is made of glass, which really isn't hard to shatter. We also have to take into account fuel barrels, because as we see in the game, there are tons of them- they also aren't hard to explode."

I'm sorry. But other user's aren't "sources" who's words can be used as evidence in a debate. Especially a statement as idiotic as that. Nowhere is it shown or stated that any significant portion of the Salvation is "made of glass" ( glass isn't even used on ships in Star Wars since that would leave it vulnerable to attacks by enemy ships, they use transparisteel, a transparent material with the strength of durasteel ) and the text actively states Starkiller shattered the frigate by embracing the remainder of the structure and blowing it apart with "his mind and the power of the Force" and not by triggering any existing explosives within the ship itself.

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"Transparisteel: A malleable metal, it was pressed and formed into thin, transparent sheets that retained nearly all of the metal’s strength and durability. Transparisteel replaced glass on starships and other structures that required both visibility and protection." - The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

"With his mind and all the power of the Force, Starkiller embraced what remained of the frigate beneath him-and blew it into a billion pieces." - The Force Unleashed II.

Take that as you will. Regardless, Revan can disintegrate tall rock pillars in the middle of battle without even paying attention because he's fighting multiple Jedi and Sith at the same time.

How does this

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

qualify as disintegration?

Oh, and yes, he can collapse a building pre-prime.

And Galen sent hundreds of droids into the stratosphere with a Force blast near the start of the first game. What's your point?

"Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the Temple’s hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them. Deactivating his lightsaber, he took a deep breath. With one mighty exhalation of power, he blasted all of them—those in pieces and those approaching with needle-tipped fingers and vibrosaws upraised—out of the foyer doors. Then he blasted the rubbish piles after them. He kept pushing until a dark cloud soared out over Raxus Prime’s hideous landscape—an artificial hurricane full of droid golems." - The Force Unleashed.

Another way he can easily win is TP. Revan's TP feats are some of the greatest of all time, rivaling GM Luke and Unu'Thul. As he was getting tortured, Revan was beating Vitiate and the Dread Masters in a TP fight. So unless you think Starkiller is above them in terms of TP, then Revan can tell Starkiller to just stab himself.

How the hell was Revan "beating" Vitiate and the Dreadmasters? And I don't need to prove Galen or Starkiller are better telepaths, just that they'd be able to resist his telepathic attacks. Given Galen actively resisted Sidious's attempts to dominate his mind, any attempts by Revan would be little more then an annoyance.

"The Emperor appeared out of the settling smoke, glee on his face. He raised one hand as though to touch the apprentice. The apprentice felt a wave of hypnotic suggestion flow through him. "Yes! Kill him! He is weak, broken! Kill him and you can take your rightful place at my side!" The apprentice remained frozen," - The Force Unleashed.

Oh, but Starkiller has powerful force lightning you say? Look here:

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2

I'm not sure what exactly you're asking me to look at here.

Starkiller's lightning will not penetrate that.

And why is that?

Literally invulnerable without the assistance of Light Revan.

Going to need a statement that it's "literally invulnerable" to anybody but Light Revan rather then simply invulnerable to whatever was shown to have attacked it.

Regardless, Revan's force storm insta-killed 8 people at once:

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And?

Did you see all the Republic soldiers go bye-bye?

I did.

And of course... Revan, pre prime and literally minutes after 3 years of torture (and still suffering from drugs used to torture him), broke through Nyriss's barrier and disintegrated her.

We've already gone over the relevance of torture in regards to someone like Revan. As for the drugging, not quite...

“They keep me drugged,” Revan said. “I just need a minute."

-

Scourge stepped over to a medkit on the wall and yanked it open. He grabbed a hypodermic filled with a green luminescent fluid. “This will help,” he said, injecting it into Revan’s arm. “But it will take a few minutes.” - Revan.

The order of events is as follows; Scourge injects Revan with the cure and Meetra gives him his mask, he passes out from information overload upon seeing the mask, Nyriss fights Meetra and Scourge for an unknown length of time though there is a lengthy exchange of dialogue. As Nyriss gets the better of them, Revan, now having donned his mask, enters the room and reflects Nyriss's lightning back onto her. PoD Bane is able to purge a lesser poison from his body instantly. Considering Revan had enough focus to employ an ability as advanced as tutaminis after being injected by Scourge, I don't see him having trouble purging the drugs from his system after waking up and donning his mask.

Almost forgot about this one:

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That's right. Teleportation. What is stopping Revan from teleporting behind Starkiller and stabbing him in the back? Oh right. Nothing.

Aside from precognition...

Or...Starkiller's oh-so-powerful lightning will hit open air because Revan will teleport away before it hits (or he can create his indestructible force barrier or use tutaminis like he did agaisnt Nyriss. They all work.)

Let's do a little experiment: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/is-sor-revan-invincible-to-everybody-but-light-rev-1895712/

If the majority of people in the thread I linked agree with your position I'll concede the point. If not though, you're going to need to provide me with evidence that Revan possesses an "indestructible force barrier" to all but himself.

As for tutaminis, Revan has never redirected lightning as powerful as Starkiller's. He has however been left a smoking husk by Vitiate's. :)

Raw power you say? Look at this:

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Revan had the power to create groundquakes, storms, and heavy winds because he was angry. I don't recall Starkiller changing the environment on that level because of raw power.

Galen near the start of the game causing an artificial groundquake and hurricane out of droid parts.

"Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the temple's hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them. Deactivating his lightsaber, he took a deep breath. With one mighty exhalation of power, he blasted all of them-those in pieces and those approaching with needle-tipped fingers and vibrosaws upraised-out of the foyer doors. Then he blasted the rubbish piles after them. He kept pushing until a dark cloud toured out over Raxus Prime's hideous landscape-an artificial hurricane full of droid golems. When the foyer was clear, the apprentice straightened. He was no longer pushing with the Force, but the floor beneath him shook nonetheless." - The Force Unleashed.

I haven't even gone over balance of the force (something that no one else can do except the Father), force healing, force slow, or the fact that he can return to life. But I think you get the idea.

Yes. The idea's that you're mentally retarded, correct?

Remember, every above feat is either pre-prime or weakened from an attack capable of destroying all life on a moon. Think of him full power.

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#32 Edited by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@necromancer76 said:

Which version of Revan? It's quite possible that Darth Revan is the version being used here, which means team 2 wins. Prime Revan though... he can beat both on his own.

@anakon4 said:

If this is Revan from the novel or SWTOR then he can solo actually. Adding Malak is an overkill.

Would love to hear the arguments behind these stances.

Revan from novel was stomping Emperor's guard in sword fight, killed memeber of the Dark Council and managed to hold off the Emperor himself. SWTOR Revan was defeated only in combination of at least 3 force sensitives plus some of the best soldiers of their time. Not to mention he uses Force techniques FU characters can only dream off.

And how is any of what you mentioned better then beating Vader in lightsaber combat, destroying superstructures with the Force or holding off an even more powerful Emperor in Sidious? All 3 Force sensitives combined don't hold a candle to Marek's power going by their respective feats/accolades. Revan having greater versatility as a Force user is a definite advantage but it doesn't make up for his inferiority as a Force user and lightsaber combatant.

Starkiller won against pre ANH Vader which is around Ben Kenobi level.

Clone never fairly beat Vader, he won under very specific circumstances.

Holding against Sidious is PIS and I would really like to know what superstructures you mean.

Going to need substantiation for your claim that ANH Kenobi is equal to TFU Vader.

The clone took advantage of a chink in Vader's armor whilst weakened. I was referring to Marek's victory over TFU Vader though.

I'm sorry, but just because something happened that you don't like doesn't mean its PIS.

A superstructure is an abnormally large structure ( whether a building or vehicle ), some examples of superstructures would the Star Destroyer factory and skyhook ( planetary docking station the base of which begins on the surface of the planet and the zenith of which reaches orbit ) Galen destroyed.

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#33 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

Remember to vote guys! :)

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/is-sor-revan-invincible-to-everybody-but-light-rev-1895712/

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#34 Posted by Cosmic_Lantern (5668 posts) - - Show Bio
@ordeith said:

Going to need substantiation for your claim that ANH Kenobi is equal to TFU Vader.

InB4MaulScale

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#35 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:

Going to need substantiation for your claim that ANH Kenobi is equal to TFU Vader.

InB4MaulScale

GG no re.

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#36 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:
@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@necromancer76 said:

Which version of Revan? It's quite possible that Darth Revan is the version being used here, which means team 2 wins. Prime Revan though... he can beat both on his own.

@anakon4 said:

If this is Revan from the novel or SWTOR then he can solo actually. Adding Malak is an overkill.

Would love to hear the arguments behind these stances.

Revan from novel was stomping Emperor's guard in sword fight, killed memeber of the Dark Council and managed to hold off the Emperor himself. SWTOR Revan was defeated only in combination of at least 3 force sensitives plus some of the best soldiers of their time. Not to mention he uses Force techniques FU characters can only dream off.

And how is any of what you mentioned better then beating Vader in lightsaber combat, destroying superstructures with the Force or holding off an even more powerful Emperor in Sidious? All 3 Force sensitives combined don't hold a candle to Marek's power going by their respective feats/accolades. Revan having greater versatility as a Force user is a definite advantage but it doesn't make up for his inferiority as a Force user and lightsaber combatant.

Starkiller won against pre ANH Vader which is around Ben Kenobi level.

Clone never fairly beat Vader, he won under very specific circumstances.

Holding against Sidious is PIS and I would really like to know what superstructures you mean.

Going to need substantiation for your claim that ANH Kenobi is equal to TFU Vader.

ANH Vader> or = Ben Kenobi> TFU Vader

Thats the simple logic.

The clone took advantage of a chink in Vader's armor whilst weakened. I was referring to Marek's victory over TFU Vader though.

I'm sorry, but just because something happened that you don't like doesn't mean its PIS.

A superstructure is an abnormally large structure ( whether a building or vehicle ), some examples of superstructures would the Star Destroyer factory and skyhook ( planetary docking station the base of which begins on the surface of the planet and the zenith of which reaches orbit ) Galen destroyed.

You are really talking about that falling Star Destroyer? Which he just redirected?

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#37 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@necromancer76 said:

Which version of Revan? It's quite possible that Darth Revan is the version being used here, which means team 2 wins. Prime Revan though... he can beat both on his own.

@anakon4 said:

If this is Revan from the novel or SWTOR then he can solo actually. Adding Malak is an overkill.

Would love to hear the arguments behind these stances.

Revan from novel was stomping Emperor's guard in sword fight, killed memeber of the Dark Council and managed to hold off the Emperor himself. SWTOR Revan was defeated only in combination of at least 3 force sensitives plus some of the best soldiers of their time. Not to mention he uses Force techniques FU characters can only dream off.

And how is any of what you mentioned better then beating Vader in lightsaber combat, destroying superstructures with the Force or holding off an even more powerful Emperor in Sidious? All 3 Force sensitives combined don't hold a candle to Marek's power going by their respective feats/accolades. Revan having greater versatility as a Force user is a definite advantage but it doesn't make up for his inferiority as a Force user and lightsaber combatant.

Starkiller won against pre ANH Vader which is around Ben Kenobi level.

Clone never fairly beat Vader, he won under very specific circumstances.

Holding against Sidious is PIS and I would really like to know what superstructures you mean.

Going to need substantiation for your claim that ANH Kenobi is equal to TFU Vader.

ANH Vader> or = Ben Kenobi> TFU Vader

Thats the simple logic.

The clone took advantage of a chink in Vader's armor whilst weakened. I was referring to Marek's victory over TFU Vader though.

I'm sorry, but just because something happened that you don't like doesn't mean its PIS.

A superstructure is an abnormally large structure ( whether a building or vehicle ), some examples of superstructures would the Star Destroyer factory and skyhook ( planetary docking station the base of which begins on the surface of the planet and the zenith of which reaches orbit ) Galen destroyed.

You are really talking about that falling Star Destroyer? Which he just redirected?

I'm sorry, but simply saying "diz caricter betar" isn't enough evidence to sway me tbh.

Nope.

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#38 Posted by Necromancer76 (3769 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: I'm not sure if I have time to respond to this whole thing tomorrow, but we'll see.

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#39 Posted by Revan- (7959 posts) - - Show Bio

Prime Revan can honestly solo.

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#40 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

Prime Revan can honestly solo.

What a coincidence. I think Galen around some point in the midgame can solo. :)

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#41 Edited by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:
@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@anakon4 said:
@ordeith said:
@necromancer76 said:

Which version of Revan? It's quite possible that Darth Revan is the version being used here, which means team 2 wins. Prime Revan though... he can beat both on his own.

@anakon4 said:

If this is Revan from the novel or SWTOR then he can solo actually. Adding Malak is an overkill.

Would love to hear the arguments behind these stances.

Revan from novel was stomping Emperor's guard in sword fight, killed memeber of the Dark Council and managed to hold off the Emperor himself. SWTOR Revan was defeated only in combination of at least 3 force sensitives plus some of the best soldiers of their time. Not to mention he uses Force techniques FU characters can only dream off.

And how is any of what you mentioned better then beating Vader in lightsaber combat, destroying superstructures with the Force or holding off an even more powerful Emperor in Sidious? All 3 Force sensitives combined don't hold a candle to Marek's power going by their respective feats/accolades. Revan having greater versatility as a Force user is a definite advantage but it doesn't make up for his inferiority as a Force user and lightsaber combatant.

Starkiller won against pre ANH Vader which is around Ben Kenobi level.

Clone never fairly beat Vader, he won under very specific circumstances.

Holding against Sidious is PIS and I would really like to know what superstructures you mean.

Going to need substantiation for your claim that ANH Kenobi is equal to TFU Vader.

ANH Vader> or = Ben Kenobi> TFU Vader

Thats the simple logic.

The clone took advantage of a chink in Vader's armor whilst weakened. I was referring to Marek's victory over TFU Vader though.

I'm sorry, but just because something happened that you don't like doesn't mean its PIS.

A superstructure is an abnormally large structure ( whether a building or vehicle ), some examples of superstructures would the Star Destroyer factory and skyhook ( planetary docking station the base of which begins on the surface of the planet and the zenith of which reaches orbit ) Galen destroyed.

You are really talking about that falling Star Destroyer? Which he just redirected?

I'm sorry, but simply saying "diz caricter betar" isn't enough evidence to sway me tbh.

Nope.

ANH Vader was unable to beat Ben Kenobi lol. Thats a fact. If you cant get over your fanboysm, then I dont really know how to convince you.

Revan knows Force Drain and Life Drain, which is something Starkiller has no experience with. And after he was brainwashed, tortured and held in prison for 300 hundred years, they still needed two Sith Lords and two elite commandos to take down non-Prime Revan.

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#42 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: ANH Vader was unable to beat Ben Kenobi lol. Thats a fact. If you cant get over your fanboysm, then I dont really know how to convince you.

You understand that a cautious Vader not beating Ben before he became one with the Force doesn't equate to then being equals, correct?

Revan knows Force Drain and Life Drain, which is something Starkiller has no experience with.

All Force user's can defend against non physical Force attacks via a combination of willpower and power in the Force that together forms one's overal "protection number" ( ability to defend against attacks ).

No Caption Provided

And just because something isn't shown doesn't mean it's not there ( I.E. absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence ). It's confirmed that Vader intended for Galen to help him overthrow the Emperor but that his plans were ruined when Sidious found out about him.

Loading Video...

( 0:32 - 0:43 )

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( 3:47 - 4:02 )

"Don't, Master!" he gasped, struggling to stand but failing. The darkness encroached further. "Together we can defeat him!"

"Do it now, Lord Vader!" insisted the Emperor. "Strike him down and prove your loyalty to me!"

Darth Vader looked from the Emperor to the apprentice as though weighing up two very heavy alternatives." - The Force Unleashed.

-

"With one black-gloved hand at his throat, he turned back to the Emperor's hologram and straightened to his full height.

"It is done," he said in a cold, leaden tone.

"You are the apprentice, Lord Vader," the Emperor snarled. "You are my servant, my enforcer. Never forget your place again." - The Force Unleashed.

( Note: The second quote comes from Juno's perspective who had hacked into the systems to view Galen and Vader's meeting. Sidious had no need to reprimand Vader to keep up some presumed charade since Galen had been incapacitated. It was for Vader's benefit only. )

"Slowly a dark understanding began to form. All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent-bar one. His Master." - The Force Unleashed II.

Considering Vader's confirmed to have trained Galen for the purpose of overthrowing the emperor and he himself knew how to resist drain I doubt he would have neglected to train Marek in the ability. This is especially apparent given Sidious, an exponentially more powerful Force user then Malak, chose to forgo draining Marek despite being driven to desperation and having his Force defenses pierced.

And after he was brainwashed, tortured and held in prison for 300 hundred years, they still needed two Sith Lords and two elite commandos to take down non-Prime Revan.

I'll quote you my response to Necro in regards to the idea that Revan's torture had an negative impact on his ability as a combatant.

I admit, I'm curious how you believe the torture Revan underwent affected his combative ability. Given the Exile was sustaining him throughout the entirety of the ordeal and the fact that his energy levels would've replenished themselves in a matter of days, it can't be any shrinkage in the energy available for him to draw from. It's possible you're arguing that damage to his physical body would have hindered him, but given the fact that far weaker Force user's have accomplished physical feats well outside the range of human ability, I don't see that as a viable argument either. A Force user's baseline physicality stops having any meaningful impact after they reach a power level similar to that of Ventress prior to her apprenticeship under Dooku. Yoda's a great example of this, his age only hindering him when he was on death's door. The only viable option left then is that you're suggesting the torture damaged Revan's mental state and, as a result, his ability to draw on the Force. Considering Revan's ability to reason and apply strategically sound tactics were intact and that the splitting of his spirit would've actually caused any doubt or conflict he may have had about the pursuit of his goals to vanish, I sort of doubt that.

TLDR; I don't understand why you believe Revan would have been "weakened" from Vitiate's torture in the sense that it would have affected his combative capabilities to any significant or notable degree.

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#43 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith: You are ignoring any possible negative effects on Revan's side while overestimating Galen's abilities. You are also still ignoring the fact, that better Vader than TFU version was unable to beat Kenobi.

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#44 Edited by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: I'm just not seeing what negative effects there are that would have diminished Revan's combative abilities and I honestly don't know how you think I'm overestimating his abilities when nearly every feat I've mentioned is a third person statement from a C canon source. A cautious Vader did not defeat Kenobi in a span of time that lasted a little over a minute. That doesn't mean he couldn't have as you're implying.

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#45 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:

@anakon4: I'm just not seeing what negative effects there are that would have diminished Revan's combative abilities and I honestly don't know how you think I'm overestimating his abilities when nearly every feat I've mentioned is a third person statement from a C canon source. A cautious Vader did not defeat Kenobi in a span of time that lasted a little over a minute. That doesn't mean he couldn't have as you're implying.

Most of the time lightsaber fights last around one minute. Revan was insane in SWTOR, he was preparing for Sith genocide, which means he wasn't mentally stable.

What feats do you have? Force Will, which is debatable and some facts about Vader trying to use Starkiller against the Emperor.

Starkiller was in the Novel having problems with Shaak Ti and won only, because of luck. He even though for himself that she was better than him.

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#46 Posted by ordeith (1595 posts) - - Show Bio

@anakon4: As mentioned, his soul was split in two and, as a result, both manifestations focused on a singular goal of his conflicted psyche ( SoR Revan wanting to gain his revenge and Light Revan wanting to become one with the Force ). He's able to reason and apply tactics as he would normally as well. I just don't see any evidence that implies mental instability. At least in the sense that it would affect him combatively.

I have a statement that actively proves Galen can resist drain whether or not he knows a specific technique and logic and common sense implying that he does.

GALEN prior to several power growths had trouble with Shaak Ti on a Lightside nexus after fighting through an army of rancors and Force users who could employ the Force as easily as humans breathed oxygen whilst having an initial disadvantage in regards to his position relative to Shaak. Upon getting back on even ground he fought evenly with her. Your statement is a false equivalence as well since I can just as easily say "Shaak Ti's only chance at defeating Galen was a last ditch effort that was ultimately nothing more then a failed kamikaze attack. Her best wasn't good enough even with the circumstances in her favor. Nowhere in the text did Galen mention Shaak being "better" then him. He mentions his reflexes saving him. Given a Force user's actions are guided by the Force and their anticipatory reflexes as is depicted in multiple sources, that's only logical.

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#47 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6025 posts) - - Show Bio

Might end up siding team 1 due to recent developments.

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#48 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2586 posts) - - Show Bio
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#49 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365

What recent developments?

I think he's referring to this WOTC quote:

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

I wouldn't take it seriously though given the source also has crap like Bastilla~Dooku

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#50 Posted by anakon4 (438 posts) - - Show Bio

@ordeith said:

@anakon4: As mentioned, his soul was split in two and, as a result, both manifestations focused on a singular goal of his conflicted psyche ( SoR Revan wanting to gain his revenge and Light Revan wanting to become one with the Force ). He's able to reason and apply tactics as he would normally as well. I just don't see any evidence that implies mental instability. At least in the sense that it would affect him combatively.

I have a statement that actively proves Galen can resist drain whether or not he knows a specific technique and logic and common sense implying that he does.

GALEN prior to several power growths had trouble with Shaak Ti on a Lightside nexus after fighting through an army of rancors and Force users who could employ the Force as easily as humans breathed oxygen whilst having an initial disadvantage in regards to his position relative to Shaak. Upon getting back on even ground he fought evenly with her. Your statement is a false equivalence as well since I can just as easily say "Shaak Ti's only chance at defeating Galen was a last ditch effort that was ultimately nothing more then a failed kamikaze attack. Her best wasn't good enough even with the circumstances in her favor. Nowhere in the text did Galen mention Shaak being "better" then him. He mentions his reflexes saving him. Given a Force user's actions are guided by the Force and their anticipatory reflexes as is depicted in multiple sources, that's only logical.

I was talking about Foundry Revan first. He was already not sane, when you see him first time.

I have a statement that actively proves Galen can resist drain whether or not he knows a specific technique and logic and common sense implying that he does.

Not really. You just proven that such ability exists, but not that Galen is strong enough to resist it.

Your statement is a false equivalence

Galen's statement is a false equivalence, not mine.