Depending on who Leia fights, she either fights well but loses, gets dismantled, or wins.
Mace at his Peak can keep Yoda off long enough until Anakin takes Revan. At which point, they could tag team him.
Anakin Vs Revan is a nice fight in both Sabers & Force. But unfortunately for the Rev-Machine, Anakin is a little above him when it comes to Sabers.
Anakin is someone who can actually give Dooku a hard fight, but lose. So Revan won't last long if he tries to go blade to blade. And Anakin isn't someone he can ragdoll or overpower. So he loses.
Satele is good enough to clash with Leia (Depending on which versions we're spekaing for the both of them) but loses in the long run in either pure Sabers, or raw Force-Power.
Basically, the hierarchy here goes like this in every category.
Mace and Yoda are by far the strongest and most skilled here, with Anakin not far behind them. They're so evenly matched in every regard that a fight between Mace and Yoda could go on until they both drop from exhaustion, and Anakin is a massive advantage to any team that has him.
Anakin defeats Leia without massive trouble. He's stronger, far more skilled, and significantly more powerful in the Force. That said, he'll hold back or get cocky, which might give her the chance to gain the upper hand.
Revan crushes Satele without much trouble, even in her prime. By SWTOR, her lightsaber skills had declined to the point where she openly conceded inferiority to EoAct 1 HoT in martial skill. Her power hasn't been covered much, but it was inferior to SoR HoT, and it wasn't until KOTFE that her training taught her new techniques and powers to give her a (temporary) advantage over him. The HoT doesn't become > Revan until around EoKOTET, at which point he's also far stronger than Satele.
Ultimately, it'll come down to whether Revan can beat Satele before Anakin can beat Leia. If he does, they gang up on Anakin and ultimately overpower him. If he doesn't, then Anakin beats Leia, then proceeds to take out Revan in a very close fight. Whoever wins that then alters the outcome of Yoda V.S Mace.
I'll back team 1, since I hold Anakin significantly higher than any of the other three non-PT characters here.
@shroudofsorrow said: @breakofdawn: I thought the RotS novel outright said Anakin was the strongest and fastest Jedi? Wouldn’t that mean Yoda and Mace aren’t the strongest?
Mace said Anakin is arguably the strongest, and he was commenting on his Sidious-level raw power, not his applicable power, which is inherently limited by Anakin's mental state. Plus, Mace constantly underestimates himself.
@breakofdawn: But earlier in the novel, Anakin is said to be the strongest and the fastest:
“This is Anakin Skywalker: The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.”
@breakofdawn: But earlier in the novel, Anakin is said to be the strongest and the fastest:
“This is Anakin Skywalker: The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.”
That quote is how the public see him, and how he sees himself. We know that none of that is true since A) he's been shot down before and been stalemated in flying, B) he's been defeated several times, and C) even at his most powerful during the film/novel, he has at best a slight gap over Mace, Yoda and SIdious.
Anakin has a lot of carrying to do. Best case for them is Mace defeats Leia, Satele survives as long as she can against Revan or Yoda (eh) until Mace can start distracting them and Anakin wins his fight as soon as possible.
I'll give Anakin benefit of the doubt, if Satele loses her fight Anakin should win his and Mace can run interference to shore up any discrepancies.
Team 1 should win. Leia is the overall weakest combatant here but Neither Anakin or Mace can beat Revan or Yoda. Mace wouldn’t be getting a Vaapad amp from Revan so there goes his biggest advantage. Revan can hold his own in sabers long enough to whip out some force power neither Anakin or Mace could deal with.
@breakofdawn: I never got the sense it was how the public saw him specifically. I always took it as an objective, Omniscient Narrator appraisal. It's in the same tone as the rest of the novel's narration, which is not told strictly from Anakin's POV.
And I think there are a couple of sources that do have RotS Anakin above Yoda (and by extension every other Jedi) in Force Power, such as a bit on a post-RotJ novel where Luke sees a recording of Anakin's hissyfit and the novel notes that, though his claim that he was more powerful than any of the Council was a petulant outburst...it was also true.
@ils: Sounds like it could go either way based on your assessment. I'd also say that while Yoda is above Mace, I'd say its more Yoda>Mace, not Yoda>>>Mace. The latter implies a greater gap than I think actually exists between the two.
Mace's best and really only feat that would put him on Yoda's level is the Office feat, which is largely shrouded in mystery as to whether Sidious was toying with him until Anakin arrives or not... Until the relaunched fact file just came out and said it.
It doesn't really help that, via Grievous, Windu is put below Invisible Hand Obi-Wan. Quotes saying that, to Grievous, fighting one Jedi is like fighting any other, until he fights Kenobi in RotS. Grievous finally has a worthy opponent when he fights Kenobi in RotS. When Mace fights Grievous, Vaapad is replicated in moments and he has no answer for it, then proceeds to put himself below Kenobi and sends him to fight Grievous (with good reason, Grievous would kill him).
And all of that is just the tip of the Windu iceberg, like 1% of it. He has OOU quotes putting him at Yoda's level but he doesn't have a single feat at that level, so all we can really say about Mace is on paper he is supposedly very good but in practice he's incapable of winning or finishing fights.
@ils: The Grievous fight didn't last very long though. It lasted only the time it took Kit Fisto to trash some Magnaguards. @breakofdawn already ripped into me on this point when I attempted to suggest Mace is "only" about on GG's level. His arguments for Mace (and verbal thrashing of yours truly), can be read here:
And all of that is just the tip of the Windu iceberg, like 1% of it. He has OOU quotes putting him at Yoda's level but he doesn't have a single feat at that level, so all we can really say about Mace is on paper he is supposedly very good but in practice he's incapable of winning or finishing fights.
But...he has won and finished fights. He sent Ventress into retreat and has subdued Sora, which count as wins to me. That he's had a lot of even or close fights against worthy opponents doesn't mean he can't ever win or finish a fight under any circumstances. If Mace had fought, say, TPM Obi-Wan, he absolutely would have won/finished that fight. But the opportunity never came up. But someone like Dooku fighting him to a standstill is just a feat for that character, not proof that Mace is some sort of jobber.
You're mixing Canon and Legends. Relaunched is Canon, as are several of the other quotes. @shroudofsorrow Tagging you for reference.
As for the claim about Mace and Obi-Wan, that's not what Grievous indicated. In fact, Grievous as of the end of LoE respected Mace's skill, and outright contrasted him with other Jedi:
Tyranus had warned him about Mace Windu's prowess with a blade, and now he understood. His literal "misstep" had shamed him, and he was grateful that the two MagnaGuards that had fought at his side had not survived to bear witness to it.
-
Posing for effect in the polygonal opening, Grievous granted his opponents a moment to activate their lightsabers, force pikes, and other weapons. Also for effect, he deflected the initial flurry of blaster bolts with his clawed hands, before drawing two of his lightsabers. His brazenness summoned the Jedi to him in a flash, but he knew in the first moments of contest that he had nothing to worry about. Compared to Mace Windu, the four were mere novices, whose lightsaber techniques were some of the earliest Grievous had mastered.
As for Leia... well, let's just say someone who is quite frequently compared to Kyp Durron before even receiving formal training, is not going to get ragdolled by Anakin.
You're mixing Canon and Legends. Relaunched is Canon, as are several of the other quotes.@shroudofsorrowTagging you for reference.
That could be the case, but IIRC that Relaunched issue I posted was one of those that was already being made/made pre-split, so sans the split all the information would have been the same. You could take that to mean the intent is there for legends, or you can just bail Mace out on a technicality, I don't really mind either way. ;)
As for the claim about Mace and Obi-Wan, that's not what Grievous indicated.
Well for one, Grievous can't indicate anything about "Mace and Obi-Wan" at the end of LoE because he hasn't even fought Obi-Wan until well into RotS. So that counter falls through.
In fact, Grievous as of the end of LoE respected Mace's skill
Tyranus had warned him about Mace Windu's prowess with a blade, and now he understood. His literal "misstep" had shamed him, and he was grateful that the two MagnaGuards that had fought at his side had not survived to bear witness to it.
He now understands Mace's prowess... which is nice, but does nothing to the comparisons made to Obi-Wan.
and outright contrasted him with other Jedi:
Posing for effect in the polygonal opening, Grievous granted his opponents a moment to activate their lightsabers, force pikes, and other weapons. Also for effect, he deflected the initial flurry of blaster bolts with his clawed hands, before drawing two of his lightsabers. His brazenness summoned the Jedi to him in a flash, but he knew in the first moments of contest that he had nothing to worry about. Compared to Mace Windu, the four were mere novices, whose lightsaber techniques were some of the earliest Grievous had mastered.
Yes, four Jedi who use techniques that Grievous mastered three years ago and prior to memorising hundreds of other Jedi's idiosyncratic fighting styles, let alone mastering the seven forms and sparring countless times with Dooku, are novices compared to Mace, sure. But Mace being above quite literal fodder for Grievous again does nothing to damage the comparisons to Obi-Wan.
First of all:
Grievous had fought Jedi before, sometimes even in open battle, and he had found that fighting any one Jedi was much like fighting any other.Kenobi, though-The ease with which Kenobi had taken command of the situation was frightening. More frightening was the fact that of the two, Skywalker was reportedly the greater warrior.
Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization
So to Grievous, who fought Mace just hours ago, fighting one Jedi was much like fighting any other. But Kenobi frightens him. And Anakin frightens him more just because he's reported to be even better than Obi-Wan. So in Grievous' mind, as per the Lucas-line-edited RotS novel which ties directly into the events of Labyrinth of Evil, Anakin > Kenobi > any other Jedi.
But wait, there's more!
(1) Kenobi is Grievous' "greatest foe"
(2) Sidious "was never going to be threatened by a creature like the cyborg general"
Now, if I was a betting man, I'd say the likelihood that Sidious was throwing the Office duel on purpose to turn Anakin, is much greater than that of Sidious legitimately losing; a Kenobi that dominated Grievous and prior to that already "frightened" him would "never" be powerful enough to defeat Sidious, according to Yoda, and yet Grievous + the above OOU source puts this same Kenobi over Mace Windu. Grievous thinks, in the macro view, one Jedi is like any other, but only Kenobi stands out.
It doesn't hurt that in the aforementioned Lucas-line-edited-novel, there's actually an implication from Palpatine himself that he's throwing:
(1) Mace, via Vaapad, gets a giga-amp from what he believes to be Sidious' fear
(2) Sidious later reveals that the fear Mace has been feeling isn't his, but is in fact Anakin's, who is spectating the duel
(3) Mace then absorbs Palpatine's lightning and reflects it back at him, amplifying it further with the power of Anakin's fear
(4) Despite the fact Palpatine is hit with his own power that has been amplified with Anakin's fear, he simply snarls and adds more power to it with his own pain
What we have here, at minimum, then, is a situation where a giga-amped Mace using one of the most powerful sources of emotional power in the mythos (Anakin's fear of all things), is reflecting an amped version of Palpatine's own power directly back at him (this power "passing in and out of Mace without touching him" mind you, he doesn't even have to withstand the power himself unlike Palpatine), and far from being enough to defeat Palpatine, Palpatine just adds even more power to the loop and keeps withstanding it.
The fact Palpatine wasn't defeated by his own amplified power definitely suggests he's holding something in reserve, whereas we know Mace to be fighting to the fullest of his abilities + using Anakin's fear as an external power source.
So the holy grail of sources, the RotS novel, would have us believe an inordinately amped Mace is still below a Palpatine who is holding something back and only adding power as the fight progresses, a Palpatine who can tank his own lightning while fighting Mace, who doesn't need to tank anything, but merely let it pass in and out of him "without touching him."
But wait, there's more!
The Supreme Commander of the Separatist Droid Army. He has slain numerous Jedi during the Clone Wars. He faces his greatest opponent when he clashes with Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi on the planet Utapau.
Star Wars Topps: Revenge of the Sith Blister Pack: General Grievous
Eluding capture following his abduction of Chancellor Palpatine at Coruscant, he is pursued by Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi to the planet Utapau. Finally finding a worthy opponent, the formidable Grievous battles Kenobi in a savage, to-the-death confrontation.
Star Wars: Carte Exclusive Story: Battling General Grievous
(1) Kenobi is Grievous' "greatest opponent" on Utapau.
(2) Grievous "finally found a worthy opponent" in Kenobi on Utapau.
Not looking great for Mace here. Maybe he was right after all...
Revenge of the Sith novelisation
(1) Kenobi's power is simplicity itself, compared to the techniques and strengths of various other Jedi, Mace included
(2) Mace reports that Grievous could answer Vaapad in kind after "a single exchange." Note here that this is a direct reference to their fight in Labyrinth of Evil, meaning the earlier quote where it's stated Grievous "had found that fighting any one Jedi was much like fighting any other" absolutely includes Mace Windu, since the same author who wrote that quote also references LoE directly.
(3) In light of (2), Mace believes Kenobi has a better chance of defeating Grievous than himself.
(4) Kenobi protests, citing Mace's "power of Vaapad" directly, but Mace contradicts this by suggesting Vaapad answers his "weakness" and suggests further that Kenobi has no weaknesses to answer for.
(5) Mace goes even further when he suggests that Kenobi is a "greater" "swordmaster" than himself because he is "the master of the classic form." He then reiterates that Kenobi is "The" "master" of Soresu.
(6) Kenobi, just being himself, will "never" be defeated by Grievous, whereas prior to this statement in (3) Mace only gave himself a "chance" of defeating Grievous.
So, to summarise:
Sidious > Kenobi is ironclad thanks to Yoda, and if you plan to press me on this we can bring in other sources
Kenobi > Mace is ironclad per Grievous, Mace himself and several OOU quotes
Sidious never being threatened by Grievous is ironclad thanks to an OOU quote
Mace being threatened by Grievous is also ironclad thanks to Mace himself in LoE and RotS
Mace is noted to be egregiously amped by Anakin's fear versus a Sidious who is tanking his own amped-and-reflected lightning, and still holding more power in reserve, meaning Mace's full power + an amp was already matched by a holding-back pre-Order 66 boost Sidious
What that amounts to is this statement being quite lolworthy:
Mace and Yoda are by far the strongest and most skilled here, with Anakin not far behind them. They're so evenly matched in every regard that a fight between Mace and Yoda could go on until they both drop from exhaustion
The only thing I can think of that would put Mace on the same radar as Yoda, Sidious or Anakin would be the "you need to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" quote from Lucas, but seeing as Lucas also line-edited the RotS novel that helped me to create the above Kenobi > Mace arguments, we should take that to mean amped Mace is "competing" with pre-order 66 boost, holding back Sidious. Mace would get shitstomped by Anakin, Yoda or Sidious at their respective peaks in RotS, and he would definitely lose to Kenobi, Dooku or any version of Anakin. Hell, I don't even like his chances against Grievous, and neither does Grievous or Mace himself - you're pretty much alone in thinking Mace can beat Grievous, ironically.
Yoda will have to finish Anakin quickly before he grows too powerful. At base and in character the Grandmaster is better, but the gap is not huge and Anakin grows stronger as he gets more riled up. Given the stipulations in the OP I think it is reasonable to assume Revan is his novel version, who would lose to Mace. I would personally also favor Satele over Leia, Burt that is more of a hunch.
Team 2 for now in very close fight, unless Revan really is SoR.
@ils: Interesting and very well written post, although I'm not sure if I agree with all of it. Where do you hold peak Kenobi in relation to Yoda, Sidious and pre-suit Vader? Do you subscribe to the notion that Anakin was hindered on Mustafar?
@darth_kira: Well there are quotes stating that on Mustafar Vader is drawing on the Force more deeply than ever, and that him and Kenobi are evenly matched. There are also quotes suggesting both Vader and Kenobi are hindered due to various internal conflicts. Taken in aggregate that would mean both are more powerful than ever there in spite of their hindrances. There are quotes saying the fight turns in Kenobi's favor when he finally releases his attachment to Anakin.
As for Yoda and Sidious, Sidious has lots of supremacy quotes over Vader circa RotS (along with every other prior Sith) and Yoda more or less stalemates him. Yoda also has his own supremacy quotes over Kenobi including during their simultaneous fights. So even if you go as far as to say Kenobi is stalemating Vader, he's still inevitably below Yoda and Sidious in their final duel.
Basically:
Sidious ~ Yoda > Mustafar Vader ~ Mustafar Kenobi
You might be able to argue that while Vader is more powerful on Mustafar he's fighting more recklessly/with less control and so is less effective than he was during Knightfall, but I'm not really sure about that.
Anakin has supremacy quotes over Yoda at the beginning of/during RotS but then Sidious gets supremacy quotes over the more powerful Vader and Yoda stalemates that Sidious. I go back and forth on Anakin but that's how I'd reconcile all the quotes now.
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