Revan vs Yoda

  • 187 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
Avatar image for idrisiangraecus
IdrisianGraecus

583

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Revan takes 6-7/10 imo.

So Revan scales from some effing ridiculous places, scaling that Yoda is hard pressed to counter.

For one, we have everybody's favorite Malak quote, backed up by Leland Chee.

No Caption Provided

To quote Ant, "The article Darth Malak - An Expanded Universe Character from Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, published by Wizards of the Coast and Lucasfilm, states Darth Malak with the Star Forge was far more powerful than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd: "Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?" For clarification, the quote asks if Darth Malak was far more powerful than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd because of his alleged "concealed cybernetic life-support," or if "cybernetic enhancement was too simple an explanation" and that there is another reason for his superior powers."

And Chee verifies the quote's canonical use via this:

No Caption Provided

So, Revan >>> KOTOR Revan >>>> SF Tired Revan > SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun >>>> Vodo > Thon >>>> Ambria >>> Bane

And Ambria ~ Naga Sadow's meditation sphere feats, like causing effing solar flares.

Vodo is also > Arca Jeth, who literally overpowers Freedon Nadd's goddamn tomb, something that literally created a nexus.

And Revan scales vastly above Lord Vivicar, due to the fact that without the assistance of Light Revan, Revan could've straight-up ragdolled the entire strike team with a fraction of his power (he was saving most for the ritual).

Revan >>>>>>>>>>>> Fraction of his power >>>>>>>>>>>> SoR HoT + Barsen'thor >>>>>>>>>> Act II HoT and Barsen'thor >>>>>>>>>>> Act I HoT and Barsen'thor who are individually > Vivicar >>>>>>>>> TPing hundreds of Jedi Masters simultaneously.

Avatar image for thebluedragon20
thebluedragon20

299

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@thebluedragon20: I am genuinely curious as to why you think Yoda's physical strength is better? I can't really recall him using physical strength at all except in duels, and all those were based on deflecting and defending. The only saber deadlock I remember was in the Dooku fight. And Revan > Dooku.

I was thinking mostly about the clone wars micro-series. In which yoda runs miles while carrying a large turret on his back, and in Revenge of the sith where he matches and even exceeds Sidious's strength in their saber lock. Sidious, as we all know has held back the combined strength of Darth maul and Savage Oppress who both have insane strength feats.

Avatar image for caffineandshiny
caffineandshiny

15

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@thebluedragon20: Ah I see you are talking about Force augmentation. Not physical strength.

The force augmentation I completely agree. Yoda > Revan. In fact I agree that Yoda > in every category EXCEPT two. Endurance/ overall tankiness. And cunning.

Which is the crux of my argument. While I completely agree that Yoda wins majority, Yoda's age and fatigue makes me wonder how long he could keep it up, considering I do believe that Revan brings enough to the table that he wouldn't be stomped.

Add in Revan's ability to shrug off lightsaber strikes and his ability to keep out of range, and I do think there would be situations where Yoda pooped out in spite of his superior skill (especially in sabers).

Avatar image for idrisiangraecus
IdrisianGraecus

583

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Revan edges. He has saber immunity, far greater versatility, and is a peer in terms of raw power.

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

the only thing Revan has Yoda in that we all can agree is Endurance(as powerful as Yoda is...he can't go for long draw out battles), and durability.

those shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, since Yoda when see him is almost 800 years old. Everyone Other Category is far superior by Accolades alone by a wide margin.

Yoda wins here it not even no contest. Yoda mind set in battle is to convert the opponent rather than kill them, if he realizes it useless he will then go for the kill and it will not be much trouble at all.

Revan isn't a peer Of Yoda, Sidious in canon and in Legends is the strongest Sith ever even when it stated many time over in epsiode 3 prior to him Sidious was a peer of Plaguise. List goes like this:

ROTJ Sidious=120

ROTS Sidious=100

ROTS Yoda=100

TPM Plaguise=97

ROTJ Vader=96

plaguise knowledge of life and death for me puts him slightly above Vader...who craved that knowledge to save his wife. it should be noted that Sidious only surpassed his former master in raw power not knowledge he only gained the knowledge of master during episode 6, the fact that Vader was 80% of that Sidious put him as Yoda Tier easily.

Vitiate was not on Sidious level, and even if we give him a bone and say he is comparable to ROTS Sidious, that firmly puts him below Yoda as well as Revan who is considerable weaker than Vitiate.

Yoda wins here he fought a much stronger Sith in Sidious and was able to Disarm him...something Revan would be incapable of doing himself.

Avatar image for thebluedragon20
thebluedragon20

299

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@caffineandshiny: I can agree with that. I usually don't separate natural strength from force augmented strength, because if a force user is fighting, they are going to use force augmentation and normal abilities don't really matter than.

Avatar image for caffineandshiny
caffineandshiny

15

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000: Vitiate is most certainly a peer of Yoda and Sidious, in raw power at least (not talking DE Sidious). This is true even in the Revan novel, where (while not being his peek) he is on a force Nexus.

You also realize that SoR Revan was FAR stronger than Revan Reborn right? Your assessment is like watching Anakin's fight in AotC and saying "meh, he'll never beat Dooku".

Furthermore general consensus frequently puts SoR Revan as a peer of Plagueis (greater in some areas, lesser in others).

I also can't fathom why you put Vader as being a single point below Plagueis. I could understand KF Vader, but suit Vader was "no more than another Dooku or Maul" according to Lucas. He isn't going to be winning any Yoda fights lol.

Also Revan's edge in endurance and durability isn't something that can be boiled down to "well of course. Yoda is an old man". I honestly can't think of a single character I would put on Revan's level in those areas (except GM Luke, and even then just in endurance). Seriously when was the last time you saw someone able to shrug off lightsaber strikes the way he does? He is Sion 2.0, with more battle endurance on top of everything.

Avatar image for caffineandshiny
caffineandshiny

15

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@thebluedragon20: That's why I left out Yoda Prime (as honestly we just don't know enough about him, let alone how good his endurance is). But older Yoda has shown that he is relies on force augmentation exclusively, with no moment that he is relying on his own body. And he has shown to tire quickly.

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#159  Edited By MyGod000

@mygod000: Vitiate is most certainly a peer of Yoda and Sidious, in raw power at least (not talking DE Sidious). This is true even in the Revan novel, where (while not being his peek) he is on a force Nexus.

You also realize that SoR Revan was FAR stronger than Revan Reborn right? Your assessment is like watching Anakin's fight in AotC and saying "meh, he'll never beat Dooku".

Furthermore general consensus frequently puts SoR Revan as a peer of Plagueis (greater in some areas, lesser in others).

I also can't fathom why you put Vader as being a single point below Plagueis. I could understand KF Vader, but suit Vader was "no more than another Dooku or Maul" according to Lucas. He isn't going to be winning any Yoda fights lol.

Also Revan's edge in endurance and durability isn't something that can be boiled down to "well of course. Yoda is an old man". I honestly can't think of a single character I would put on Revan's level in those areas (except GM Luke, and even then just in endurance). Seriously when was the last time you saw someone able to shrug off lightsaber strikes the way he does? He is Sion 2.0, with more battle endurance on top of everything.

you do realize being a peer doesn't mean they are close in power right? Dooku, Mace are both Consider peers of Yoda and Yoda can defeat Dooku while holding back.

i said Vitiate is weaker than ROTS Yoda, and Sidious because Sidious is stated by ROTS to be the strongest Darth in history.

Revan is still considerably weaker than Vitiate, who is weaker than Sidious...who Yoda is stated to equal to.

Avatar image for mattyboi
MattyBoi

3647

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#160  Edited By MattyBoi

Yoda wins in a decent fight.

Avatar image for animefreak1
AnimeFreak1

1872

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#161  Edited By AnimeFreak1

Didn't Yoda hold back a sentient Mountain in EU with just the Force?

Avatar image for king-ragnar
King-Ragnar

5388

Forum Posts

79

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 2

Yoda is just better, at everything.

Avatar image for thebluedragon20
thebluedragon20

299

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@thebluedragon20: That's why I left out Yoda Prime (as honestly we just don't know enough about him, let alone how good his endurance is). But older Yoda has shown that he is relies on force augmentation exclusively, with no moment that he is relying on his own body. And he has shown to tire quickly.

of course he relies on augmentation. Almost all force users rely on force augmentation. It is very rare that a force user will use their own physicality without any augmentation unless they are trying to prove a point to a non-force sensitive. Your making it seem as if yoda is at disadvantage because he is not strong or fast without the force which he isn't because a jedi without force augmentation is basically useless.

Avatar image for caffineandshiny
caffineandshiny

15

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@thebluedragon20: What I mean is that he has to rely on it to an even greater degree than one normally would. For example, if you could normally run at 10 miles per hour, and then used the Force to run 20, you would have to call on it far less than someone who could run 1 mile per hour before calling on the Force. (and yes, I realize this is over simplistic)

Yoda is best suited to Ataru because of his stature. Sure he can match a Form V user in brute strength by using the Force, but he has to call on it far more to do so.

And he HAS been shown to tire, largely because of this. People forget that Jedi are still living breathing beings who all have different physical limits.

Avatar image for idrisiangraecus
IdrisianGraecus

583

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000: False, the nexus screwed Revan over, and as of SoR., Revan can utterly stomp a strike team of the most powerful force users of the time with a portion of his power (Light Revan helped them and Revan was probably saving his energy for the ritual to summon Vitiate). Revan has an immunity to lightsabers, arguably the greatest willpower in the mythos, raw power to match Yoda’s, in addition to far greater versatility.

And the Kun scaling seals the deal.

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#166  Edited By MyGod000

@idrisiangraecus said:

@mygod000: False, the nexus screwed Revan over, and as of SoR., Revan can utterly stomp a strike team of the most powerful force users of the time with a portion of his power (Light Revan helped them and Revan was probably saving his energy for the ritual to summon Vitiate). Revan has an immunity to lightsabers, arguably the greatest willpower in the mythos, raw power to match Yoda’s, in addition to far greater versatility.

And the Kun scaling seals the deal.

Then Revan nearly died to a bomb while amp.

No, he doesn't scale to Yoda but he puts up a decent fight before Yoda get serious and then stomps him. Those Jedi Revan beat are scrubs tier, and Kun was a ghost let not forget that Kun relies on Sith amulets and artifacts to be powerful.

Vitiate at his strongest is weaker than ROTS Sidious.

Vitiate>>>Revan.

No matter how much you wank the fact still remains Revan get stomped here...he isn't in the tier of Yoda.

Just to give you a hint who are Yoda tier.

ROTS Sidious

ROTJ Vader

Vaapad Amp Mace

Amp Dooku

All these people are Yoda tier and would destroy Revan.

Avatar image for idrisiangraecus
IdrisianGraecus

583

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#167  Edited By IdrisianGraecus

@mygod000: ROTJ Vader is actually not that high. He's (vastly) sub KFV, and GL quotes pin him fairly low.

Revan didn't nearly die to a bomb. It was an internal explosion he physically couldn't guard against, and he tanks it. It was literally a Nihilus/Nathema-esque drain on the inside of himself.

What makes the Jedi Revan beat scrubs? Every goddamn one of them scales vastly above Vivicar, who easily TP's hundreds of Jedi at once. Furthermore, Kun doesn't rely on amps and nexuses, he managed to stalemate effing Ood Bnar on a ridiculously powerful Light Side nexus, and Ood manages to destroy Sedriss, who's a very credible threat to DE Luke. Furthermore, in JA, Kun manages to utterly annihilate JA Luke with sorcery, and Malak at his base scales utterly above him.

SoR Revan >>>>>>> Revan Reborn >>>>> Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan >>>> Tired SF Revan > SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun >> Ood Bnar >> Sedriss << DE Luke >>> ROTJ Luke ~ ROTJ Vader.

Or SoR Revan >>>>>>> Revan Reborn >>>>> Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan >>>> Tired SF Revan > SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun >> Nadd >>> Sadow >>>>>>> Ajunta Pall >>> Karness Muur >>>> Spirit! Muur >>> Vader

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000: ROTJ Vader is actually fodder. He's (vastly) sub KFV, and GL quotes pin him fairly low.

He isn't that is just your opinion. GL has changed his mind on many things, in star wars. before ROTJ it was actually going to be called something else, until he changed it. GL stated Vader in ROTJ got to 80% of ROTJ Sidious.

ROTJ Sidious>>ROTS Sidious.

for someone who is Fodder he sure slaughtered many Jedi. the fact that He one shotted Maul puts him easily in the Jedi Council level easily.

Avatar image for idrisiangraecus
IdrisianGraecus

583

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#169  Edited By IdrisianGraecus

@mygod000: That... was non-canon lmao. GL literally said Vader was sub-"Golden Age Jedi". You cannot quantify 80%, and that was potential. He was also referring to RoTS Sidious. KFV killed a lot of Jedi. ROTJ Vader barely killed any. And most of the council was fodder. Only Mace, Kenobi, and Yoda were powerful. Most of the others were Malgus level tbh.

Also, as I said before:

Revan didn't nearly die to a bomb. It was an internal explosion he physically couldn't guard against, and he tanks it. It was literally a Nihilus/Nathema-esque drain on the inside of himself.

What makes the Jedi Revan beat scrubs? Every goddamn one of them scales vastly above Vivicar, who easily TP's hundreds of Jedi at once. Furthermore, Kun doesn't rely on amps and nexuses, he managed to stalemate effing Ood Bnar on a ridiculously powerful Light Side nexus, and Ood manages to destroy Sedriss, who's a very credible threat to DE Luke. Furthermore, in JA, Kun manages to utterly annihilate JA Luke with sorcery, and Malak at his base scales utterly above him.

SoR Revan >>>>>>> Revan Reborn >>>>> Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan >>>> Tired SF Revan > SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun >> Ood Bnar >> Sedriss << DE Luke >>> ROTJ Luke ~ ROTJ Vader.

Or SoR Revan >>>>>>> Revan Reborn >>>>> Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan >>>> Tired SF Revan > SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun >> Nadd >>> Sadow >>>>>>> Ajunta Pall >>> Karness Muur >>>> Spirit! Muur >>> Vader

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000: That... was non-canon lmao. GL literally said Vader was sub-"Golden Age Jedi". You cannot quantify 80%, and that was potential. He was also referring to RoTS Sidious. KFV killed a lot of Jedi. ROTJ Vader barely killed any. And most of the council was fodder. Only Mace, Kenobi, and Yoda were powerful. Most of the others were Malgus level tbh.

Also, as I said before:

Revan didn't nearly die to a bomb. It was an internal explosion he physically couldn't guard against, and he tanks it. It was literally a Nihilus/Nathema-esque drain on the inside of himself.

What makes the Jedi Revan beat scrubs? Every goddamn one of them scales vastly above Vivicar, who easily TP's hundreds of Jedi at once. Furthermore, Kun doesn't rely on amps and nexuses, he managed to stalemate effing Ood Bnar on a ridiculously powerful Light Side nexus, and Ood manages to destroy Sedriss, who's a very credible threat to DE Luke. Furthermore, in JA, Kun manages to utterly annihilate JA Luke with sorcery, and Malak at his base scales utterly above him.

SoR Revan >>>>>>> Revan Reborn >>>>> Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan >>>> Tired SF Revan > SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun >> Ood Bnar >> Sedriss << DE Luke >>> ROTJ Luke ~ ROTJ Vader.

Or SoR Revan >>>>>>> Revan Reborn >>>>> Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan >>>> Tired SF Revan > SF Malak >>> Malak >> Kun >> Nadd >>> Sadow >>>>>>> Ajunta Pall >>> Karness Muur >>>> Spirit! Muur >>> Vader

but I can quantify 80%

since people like Star Killer who is stated to be weaker than Vader is able to Tank Stronger Darth Sidious Force Lighting to the face and Vader while Weakened is able to do the same.

No, it was canon, he GL Changes his mind many times, as i said if we was so sup par he wouldn't have been able to literally destroy so many Jedi for 19+ years.

your argument contradicts what is being told to us. Vader can tank Force Lighting, the same Force lighting Killed Mace Windu, and was able to make Yoda Struggle.

Vader can tank it, as well as Star Killer who is weaker than Vader.

GL wrote the Star Killer Story so, yes Vader is much stronger than you are trying to downplay him as. Revan nearly died to a bomb while he was amp at his strongest.

So, no Revan is weaker than Vader. even Star wars experts say Vader would make Yoda struggle and since you are using Non-canon GL statements just so you know in star wars infinite it showed Vader killing Yoda.

Avatar image for cj_the_dj
CJ_the_DJ

63

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000:

but I can quantify 80%

When you have to use feats to quantify Vader's power level, the statement itself becomes irrelevant.

since people like Star Killer who is stated to be weaker than Vader is able to Tank Stronger Darth Sidious Force Lighting to the face and Vader while Weakened is able to do the same.

1. Starkiller is never stated to be weaker than Vader. In fact, the opposite is depicted, in their first fight Starkiller telekinetically dominates him after stomping him in Lightsaber combat, and in their second fight, Starkiller beat him while exhausted.

2. Vader tanked ROTJ Sidious's Force Lightning while amped, so it's irrelevant.

No, it was canon, he GL Changes his mind many times, as i said if we was so sup par he wouldn't have been able to literally destroy so many Jedi for 19+ years.

GL explicitly stated Vader wasn't comparable to "real Jedi" making it clear he isn't on par with the PT high tiers e.g. Yoda, Sidious, etc. The fact that he's been beating fodder for 19 years doesn't refute this undeniable fact.

your argument contradicts what is being told to us. Vader can tank Force Lighting, the same Force lighting Killed Mace Windu, and was able to make Yoda Struggle.

Whether or not the Force Lightning was as strong against Vader as it was against Mace Windu and Yoda is suspect given that Palpatine clearly lost control of his powers in that scene (he doesn't levitate himself out of the pit when he's thrown in it, doesn't guide himself onto one of the main walkways surrounding him, fails to foresee Luke's defiance and Vader's betrayal, etc).

Vader can tank it, as well as Star Killer who is weaker than Vader.

Refuted.

GL wrote the Star Killer Story so, yes Vader is much stronger than you are trying to downplay him as. Revan nearly died to a bomb while he was amp at his strongest.

1. George never wrote Starkiller's story, he had involvement sure, but he didn't write it.

2. Which Revan feat are you referring to?

So, no Revan is weaker than Vader.

Lies.

even Star wars experts say Vader would make Yoda struggle and since you are using Non-canon GL statements just so you know in star wars infinite it showed Vader killing Yoda.

1. Almost none of the experts I know think this, and regardless it's obviously false based on the material.

2. GL is the Word of God all his statements have the highest authority.

3. When did Vader kill Yoda? Regardless infinites are non-canon.

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#172  Edited By MyGod000

@cj_the_dj said:

@mygod000:

but I can quantify 80%

When you have to use feats to quantify Vader's power level, the statement itself becomes irrelevant.

since people like Star Killer who is stated to be weaker than Vader is able to Tank Stronger Darth Sidious Force Lighting to the face and Vader while Weakened is able to do the same.

1. Starkiller is never stated to be weaker than Vader. In fact, the opposite is depicted, in their first fight Starkiller telekinetically dominates him after stomping him in Lightsaber combat, and in their second fight, Starkiller beat him while exhausted.

2. Vader tanked ROTJ Sidious's Force Lightning while amped, so it's irrelevant.

No, it was canon, he GL Changes his mind many times, as i said if we was so sup par he wouldn't have been able to literally destroy so many Jedi for 19+ years.

GL explicitly stated Vader wasn't comparable to "real Jedi" making it clear he isn't on par with the PT high tiers e.g. Yoda, Sidious, etc. The fact that he's been beating fodder for 19 years doesn't refute this undeniable fact.

your argument contradicts what is being told to us. Vader can tank Force Lighting, the same Force lighting Killed Mace Windu, and was able to make Yoda Struggle.

Whether or not the Force Lightning was as strong against Vader as it was against Mace Windu and Yoda is suspect given that Palpatine clearly lost control of his powers in that scene (he doesn't levitate himself out of the pit when he's thrown in it, doesn't guide himself onto one of the main walkways surrounding him, fails to foresee Luke's defiance and Vader's betrayal, etc).

Vader can tank it, as well as Star Killer who is weaker than Vader.

Refuted.

GL wrote the Star Killer Story so, yes Vader is much stronger than you are trying to downplay him as. Revan nearly died to a bomb while he was amp at his strongest.

1. George never wrote Starkiller's story, he had involvement sure, but he didn't write it.

2. Which Revan feat are you referring to?

So, no Revan is weaker than Vader.

Lies.

even Star wars experts say Vader would make Yoda struggle and since you are using Non-canon GL statements just so you know in star wars infinite it showed Vader killing Yoda.

1. Almost none of the experts I know think this, and regardless it's obviously false based on the material.

2. GL is the Word of God all his statements have the highest authority.

3. When did Vader kill Yoda? Regardless infinites are non-canon.

When you have to use feats to quantify Vader's power level, the statement itself becomes irrelevant.

Like I just mentioned before, you GL statement from back then in 1974 and 1984 are irrelevant because GL Changes his mind frequently, and it non-canon statement because he changed that. you saying we can't Quantify it yet you put him in sup-Par Jedi Level is a contradicted statement in itself.

If its Not quantifiable, then leave it at that and say no more because of your statement says it can't be Quantified.

1. Starkiller is never stated to be weaker than Vader. In fact, the opposite is depicted, in their first fight Starkiller telekinetically dominates him after stomping him in Lightsaber combat, and in their second fight, Starkiller beat him while exhausted.

2. Vader tanked ROTJ Sidious's Force Lightning while amped, so it's irrelevant.

what does his depiction have to do with where he actually stands? so...you are using the fact that you play the Hero in the Game, and controlling him in a plot demanded system to say Vader is weaker?

No Caption Provided

The Actual Producers of the Game stated Star Killer is 100% weaker than Vader. those fights were while you are controlling them, in actual Cut scenes of the fight Vader owns him pretty easily. in Star killers own Words he stated Vader was nearly as powerful as the Emperor himself. which against Debunks your statements of him being sup-par Jedi tier.

Even the voice actor for Starkiller stated that Vader had been toying with Star Killer in every encounter.

"But there was definitely moments where Starkiller faces off very cocky against Vader, maybe near the beginning of the game, and Vader *houses* him. And he says "how are you doing this?" And he's says "I'm Darth Vader."...

...that Vader had been gaming him, quite a bit."

This was not an opinion by Sam Either because the Developer of the TFU told him the plot of the game and wanted to let everyone know that Vader was stronger.

Yeah, absolutely, I'll give you little tidbits. The story of 3 was going to be as I understand it, thematically the terror of Darth Vader, because, you know, Haden Blackman wasn't about to have you beat this guy two times in a row without making a very strong point at the end of the third one and throughout the third one. That, you know there is, there is a... you know, I shouldn't say too much in case this all happens...

All of that debunks your non-canon since GL is one of the writers for the game as well.

you also missed the part were VAder recked Starkiller when he found the Rebel base your argument about him being Sup-par Jedi level is moot when GL don't even agree with what he said in 1984.

Vader being amp is irrelevant because it stated Vader was at his weakest and also a guy weaker than Vader took Sidious force lighting.

GL explicitly stated Vader wasn't comparable to "real Jedi" making it clear he isn't on par with the PT high tiers e.g. Yoda, Sidious, etc. The fact that he's been beating fodder for 19 years doesn't refute this undeniable fact.

Outdated like I already said above.

Whether or not the Force Lightning was as strong against Vader as it was against Mace Windu and Yoda is suspect given that Palpatine clearly lost control of his powers in that scene (he doesn't levitate himself out of the pit when he's thrown in it, doesn't guide himself onto one of the main walkways surrounding him, fails to foresee Luke's defiance and Vader's betrayal, etc).

It stated in the scene itself that Sidious hit Vader with everything he had and was trying to punish him. Not only that it also stated that VAder overpowered him as well. so regardless in that moment Vader was stronger and more powerful than Sidious was.

Refuted.

You didn't refute anything. You just gave out your opinion saying it was suspect if the Force lighting was stronger. So, how is that a refute? I gave you facts, it was stated that Sidious Hit Vader with everything he had.

1. George never wrote Starkiller's story, he had involvement sure, but he didn't write it.

2. Which Revan feat are you referring to?

GL was credited as the story writer...what are you talking about? he was the one who pitched the idea and wrote them the story.

Your downplay is the reason why you lose your debates so much you downplay soo much it not even funny. Revan at his strongest got owned by a bomb.

Lies.

sorry you feel that way, but it true.

1. Almost none of the experts I know think this, and regardless it's obviously false based on the material.

2. GL is the Word of God all his statements have the highest authority.

3. When did Vader kill Yoda? Regardless infinites are non-canon.

you don't know any experts, even a Known Vader Downplayer on here even said your scaling doesn't make any sense and called you out on it...where you disqualified yourself by saying you took the scaling from some other guy on a bais forum and you ran with it.

that is true, until he contradicts his previous work with other updated work. it called death to the author.

okay, and the old GL quotes are pretty much non-canon now as well since he changed his mind on them... and regardless it happened and it showed that Vader can kill Yoda at least.

Avatar image for idrisiangraecus
IdrisianGraecus

583

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000: Yet you still can’t refute my scaling. Vader is vastly sub DE Luke. He’s vastly sub Revan via Muur scaling. Can you disprove it?

Avatar image for cj_the_dj
CJ_the_DJ

63

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#174  Edited By CJ_the_DJ

@mygod000:

Like I just mentioned before, you GL statement from back then in 1974 and 1984 are irrelevant because GL Changes his mind frequently, and it non-canon statement because he changed that. you saying we can't Quantify it yet you put him in sup-Par Jedi Level is a contradicted statement in itself.

I never claimed Vader was below sub-par Jedi, I claimed he was below the PT high tiers i.e. Yoda, Sidious, etc. The entire premise of your rebuttal is built on a strawmann, so it doesn't hold any water.

Regarding the conjecture, you need to prove the statements are contradicted later with your own evidence, not a vague percentage quote that doesn't give any indication as to how Vader would hold up to PT high tiers.

Also, these statements weren't from 1974 (SW hadn't even released by that point?) or 1984, but rather they were from 1999, 2005, and 2017. It's a sentiment consistently re-iterated by Lucas, so please, try again to disprove it, because it definitely looks like it is what Lucas intended.

If its Not quantifiable, then leave it at that and say no more because of your statement says it can't be Quantified.

So, you're not actually refuting the fact that the vague 80% is unquantifiable? Great.

what does his depiction have to do with where he actually stands? so...you are using the fact that you play the Hero in the Game, and controlling him in a plot demanded system to say Vader is weaker?

Wait, you're legitimately arguing PIS for why Vader lost to Starkiller? Lmao. And no, this isn't just based on gameplay mechanics, it's based on the comic, novelization and cutscenes as well. All sources support Starkiller legitimately beating Vader, it's the core thematic intention of the story, so please don't insult me by arguing PIS, and then basically saying /thread.

The Actual Producers of the Game stated Star Killer is 100% weaker than Vader.

This point is still worthless, as I asked for a citation and you've utterly failed to provide one.

those fights were while you are controlling them, in actual Cut scenes of the fight Vader owns him pretty easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lye6FuGWOYc

Behold Vader "owning him pretty easily."

in Star killers own Words he stated Vader was nearly as powerful as the Emperor himself. which against Debunks your statements of him being sup-par Jedi tier.

I don't recall Starkiller ever stating this, so once again a citation is needed. Regardless Starkiller views Vader as stupidly powerful relative to how he actually is, his opinion is clearly slanted and cannot be used to form an objective view of Vader's power level.

Even the voice actor for Starkiller stated that Vader had been toying with Star Killer in every encounter.

Sam Witwer was discussing early ideas for a Videogame that was never made. Meanwhile, the TFU 2 Script and novelization both confirm Vader was going all out.

This was not an opinion by Sam Either because the Developer of the TFU told him the plot of the game and wanted to let everyone know that Vader was stronger.

Once again early ideas that never came to fruition can't retcon established material stating Vader was giving it his all.

All of that debunks your non-canon since GL is one of the writers for the game as well.

GL provided ideas sure, but he didn't write the actual story. It's C-Canon, not G-Canon meaning it doesn't have relevance. The worst part is these ideas Lucas provided were that Vader was broken and permanently crippled after Mustafar, meaning as I said he's not on par with the PT heavyweights like Anakin, Yoda, Palpatine, etc. Hell, I wouldn't even put him with Dooku.

you also missed the part were VAder recked Starkiller when he found the Rebel base your argument about him being Sup-par Jedi level is moot when GL don't even agree with what he said in 1984.

This idea that GL changed his intent when it's re-iterated in 2005 and 2017 is ridiculous. As for Vader destroying Starkiller, it never happened.

Vader being amp is irrelevant because it stated Vader was at his weakest and also a guy weaker than Vader took Sidious force lighting.

Insider 101 states, “At most times, and particularly in his weakened state, Vader wouldn’t have stood a chance against” Palpatine. Vader normally wouldn’t hold a candle to Palpatine, and the source specifies Vader’s weakened condition that you’ve been raving about. Insider continues, “but the light side of the Force gives him the strength he needs,” meaning Vader’s dramatically amped relative to not just his “weakened state” but his standard.

In other words, this point is moot.

It stated in the scene itself that Sidious hit Vader with everything he had and was trying to punish him. Not only that it also stated that VAder overpowered him as well. so regardless in that moment Vader was stronger and more powerful than Sidious was.

Citation needed.

GL was credited as the story writer...what are you talking about? he was the one who pitched the idea and wrote them the story.

Hayden pitched the idea to Lucas, not the other way around??? Just because George provided them with some ideas doesn't mean the material itself if G-Canon. It's literally stated to be "a story by Hayden Blackman" meaning it obviously wasn't written by Lucas.

Your downplay is the reason why you lose your debates so much you downplay soo much it not even funny. Revan at his strongest got owned by a bomb.

??? You don't even know who I am, nor have you seen me debate anywhere, but this thread yet you're claiming I "lose debates so much and downplay soo much it not even funny." Do you have any idea who cocky, arrogant and pretentious you sound, for someone making ludicrous claims and acting like he's winning the debate?

sorry you feel that way, but it true.

For someone who's failed to link Revan supposedly dying to a bomb this is a suspect claim.

you don't know any experts,

And you know this how exactly???

even a Known Vader Downplayer on here even said your scaling doesn't make any sense and called you out on it...where you disqualified yourself by saying you took the scaling from some other guy on a bais forum and you ran with it.

I have never said any of this??? How would you even know regardless? You'd never talked to me before until yesterday.

that is true, until he contradicts his previous work with other updated work. it called death to the author.

Okay, but you've failed to prove a contradiction exists.

okay, and the old GL quotes are pretty much non-canon now as well since he changed his mind on them...

It's been re-iterated recently lmao. It's hardly "old."

and regardless it happened and it showed that Vader can kill Yoda at least.

For the last time: citation needed. Also, the fact that it happened doesn't mean it has relevance because as I said, it's explicitly non-canon lol.

To summarise your post is filled with:

-Undeserved hostility.

-Strawmanns.

-Goalpost changes and conceded points.

For all of your talk, you seem to be on the losing end of this debate. As usual, Vader dies.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Yoda tier combatant amirite?

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000: Yet you still can’t refute my scaling. Vader is vastly sub DE Luke. He’s vastly sub Revan via Muur scaling. Can you disprove it?

I can, actually because it stated from palpatine himself that DE Luke is about as powerful as Darth Vader.

as a matter of fact it's stated that Vader is the most powerful Servant of Sidious.

Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base.

Than Palpatine States this about DE Luke:

"Yes, that mask inspired terror throughout the galaxy but the feeble heart within was forever possessed by the impotent side of the Force. You can be far stronger than he was."

-- Dark Empire 1

"Yes... you have that talent... you are a Skywalker, after all... You can be like him... You can be greater than he was!"

-- Dark Empire Endnotes

He is literally talking about Mask Vader with the suit, and stated "Luke can be far stronger than Vader was."

Which indicates that Vader is at least on par with DE Luke if not Greater, just from Sidious saying he can be stronger than him.

This was before his temporary power up he got from Leia to beat Him. he literally talking about Luke Potential to Darth Vader's Potential.

which actually means Grand Master Luke is weaker than what a Full potential Anakin is since Vader lost a good chunk of his potential way back then.

Even Darth Karness Muur is impressed with Vader's power the same guy who Vitiate consider a threat to him.

your scaling is already off as I said you took it from bais people downplaying Vader, i pretty sure you haven't even read DE.

Vader is above Dooku, who is in Yoda's Tier of power.

Avatar image for idrisiangraecus
IdrisianGraecus

583

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000: Vitiate thought all spirits together could be a threat to him.... and being impressed by one’s power doesn’t make them superior. I have read DE, and there are plenty of OOU sources that state Luke as of ROTJ is an equal or superior to Vader.

Your grammar is atrocious by the way. “Bais”?

And you are you talking about? Are you so dull that you think I’m stealing this scaling? Child, I’ve scaled this crap for ages

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#177  Edited By MyGod000

@idrisiangraecus said:

@mygod000: Vitiate thought all spirits together could be a threat to him.... and being impressed by one’s power doesn’t make them superior. I have read DE, and there are plenty of OOU sources that state Luke as of ROTJ is an equal or superior to Vader.

Your grammar is atrocious by the way. “Bais”?

And you are you talking about? Are you so dull that you think I’m stealing this scaling? Child, I’ve scaled this crap for ages

Who cares about grammar? I don't even see you as someone worth trying against in debates anyways. don't lie you admitted you took the scaling from someone else in another debate; Your scaling is pretty crap.

Yes, You're Bias. you said Vader is Golden Age Jedi Level Which doesn't make sense because it said that Vader is above Dooku who is Yoda Tier level.

Nope, you haven't read DE. I have novels that Said Vader wasn't even trying in those duels with Luke, and I just showed you from Sidious own Mouth that Luke is still around Vader level in DE.

Avatar image for idrisiangraecus
IdrisianGraecus

583

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#178  Edited By IdrisianGraecus

@mygod000: Bullshit, and Sidious’ opinion isn’t canon. Where does it say Dooku is sub-Vader?

Dooku &amp;gt; IH Kenobi &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Ben ~ Vader

And you don’t dictate what I’ve read and haven’t you buffoon

My scaling is crap... mine? This coming from the moron that puts Vader at the level of Yoda and Plagueis

I’m writing this from mobile... I don’t try to beat someone as idiotic as you, I do it irrespectively

Avatar image for cj_the_dj
CJ_the_DJ

63

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

When do I receive a response?

:(

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#180  Edited By MyGod000

@mygod000:

Like I just mentioned before, you GL statement from back then in 1974 and 1984 are irrelevant because GL Changes his mind frequently, and it non-canon statement because he changed that. you saying we can't Quantify it yet you put him in sup-Par Jedi Level is a contradicted statement in itself.

I never claimed Vader was below sub-par Jedi, I claimed he was below the PT high tiers i.e. Yoda, Sidious, etc. The entire premise of your rebuttal is built on a strawmann, so it doesn't hold any water.

Regarding the conjecture, you need to prove the statements are contradicted later with your own evidence, not a vague percentage quote that doesn't give any indication as to how Vader would hold up to PT high tiers.

Also, these statements weren't from 1974 (SW hadn't even released by that point?) or 1984, but rather they were from 1999, 2005, and 2017. It's a sentiment consistently re-iterated by Lucas, so please, try again to disprove it, because it definitely looks like it is what Lucas intended.

If its Not quantifiable, then leave it at that and say no more because of your statement says it can't be Quantified.

So, you're not actually refuting the fact that the vague 80% is unquantifiable? Great.

what does his depiction have to do with where he actually stands? so...you are using the fact that you play the Hero in the Game, and controlling him in a plot demanded system to say Vader is weaker?

Wait, you're legitimately arguing PIS for why Vader lost to Starkiller? Lmao. And no, this isn't just based on gameplay mechanics, it's based on the comic, novelization and cutscenes as well. All sources support Starkiller legitimately beating Vader, it's the core thematic intention of the story, so please don't insult me by arguing PIS, and then basically saying /thread.

The Actual Producers of the Game stated Star Killer is 100% weaker than Vader.

This point is still worthless, as I asked for a citation and you've utterly failed to provide one.

those fights were while you are controlling them, in actual Cut scenes of the fight Vader owns him pretty easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lye6FuGWOYc

Behold Vader "owning him pretty easily."

in Star killers own Words he stated Vader was nearly as powerful as the Emperor himself. which against Debunks your statements of him being sup-par Jedi tier.

I don't recall Starkiller ever stating this, so once again a citation is needed. Regardless Starkiller views Vader as stupidly powerful relative to how he actually is, his opinion is clearly slanted and cannot be used to form an objective view of Vader's power level.

Even the voice actor for Starkiller stated that Vader had been toying with Star Killer in every encounter.

Sam Witwer was discussing early ideas for a Videogame that was never made. Meanwhile, the TFU 2 Script and novelization both confirm Vader was going all out.

This was not an opinion by Sam Either because the Developer of the TFU told him the plot of the game and wanted to let everyone know that Vader was stronger.

Once again early ideas that never came to fruition can't retcon established material stating Vader was giving it his all.

All of that debunks your non-canon since GL is one of the writers for the game as well.

GL provided ideas sure, but he didn't write the actual story. It's C-Canon, not G-Canon meaning it doesn't have relevance. The worst part is these ideas Lucas provided were that Vader was broken and permanently crippled after Mustafar, meaning as I said he's not on par with the PT heavyweights like Anakin, Yoda, Palpatine, etc. Hell, I wouldn't even put him with Dooku.

you also missed the part were VAder recked Starkiller when he found the Rebel base your argument about him being Sup-par Jedi level is moot when GL don't even agree with what he said in 1984.

This idea that GL changed his intent when it's re-iterated in 2005 and 2017 is ridiculous. As for Vader destroying Starkiller, it never happened.

Vader being amp is irrelevant because it stated Vader was at his weakest and also a guy weaker than Vader took Sidious force lighting.

Insider 101 states, “At most times, and particularly in his weakened state, Vader wouldn’t have stood a chance against” Palpatine. Vader normally wouldn’t hold a candle to Palpatine, and the source specifies Vader’s weakened condition that you’ve been raving about. Insider continues, “but the light side of the Force gives him the strength he needs,” meaning Vader’s dramatically amped relative to not just his “weakened state” but his standard.

In other words, this point is moot.

It stated in the scene itself that Sidious hit Vader with everything he had and was trying to punish him. Not only that it also stated that VAder overpowered him as well. so regardless in that moment Vader was stronger and more powerful than Sidious was.

Citation needed.

GL was credited as the story writer...what are you talking about? he was the one who pitched the idea and wrote them the story.

Hayden pitched the idea to Lucas, not the other way around??? Just because George provided them with some ideas doesn't mean the material itself if G-Canon. It's literally stated to be "a story by Hayden Blackman" meaning it obviously wasn't written by Lucas.

Your downplay is the reason why you lose your debates so much you downplay soo much it not even funny. Revan at his strongest got owned by a bomb.

??? You don't even know who I am, nor have you seen me debate anywhere, but this thread yet you're claiming I "lose debates so much and downplay soo much it not even funny." Do you have any idea who cocky, arrogant and pretentious you sound, for someone making ludicrous claims and acting like he's winning the debate?

sorry you feel that way, but it true.

For someone who's failed to link Revan supposedly dying to a bomb this is a suspect claim.

you don't know any experts,

And you know this how exactly???

even a Known Vader Downplayer on here even said your scaling doesn't make any sense and called you out on it...where you disqualified yourself by saying you took the scaling from some other guy on a bais forum and you ran with it.

I have never said any of this??? How would you even know regardless? You'd never talked to me before until yesterday.

that is true, until he contradicts his previous work with other updated work. it called death to the author.

Okay, but you've failed to prove a contradiction exists.

okay, and the old GL quotes are pretty much non-canon now as well since he changed his mind on them...

It's been re-iterated recently lmao. It's hardly "old."

and regardless it happened and it showed that Vader can kill Yoda at least.

For the last time: citation needed. Also, the fact that it happened doesn't mean it has relevance because as I said, it's explicitly non-canon lol.

To summarise your post is filled with:

-Undeserved hostility.

-Strawmanns.

-Goalpost changes and conceded points.

For all of your talk, you seem to be on the losing end of this debate. As usual, Vader dies.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Yoda tier combatant amirite?

I never claimed Vader was below sub-par Jedi, I claimed he was below the PT high tiers i.e. Yoda, Sidious, etc. The entire premise of your rebuttal is built on a strawmann, so it doesn't hold any water.

Regarding the conjecture, you need to prove the statements are contradicted later with your own evidence, not a vague percentage quote that doesn't give any indication as to how Vader would hold up to PT high tiers.

Also, these statements weren't from 1974 (SW hadn't even released by that point?) or 1984, but rather they were from 1999, 2005, and 2017. It's a sentiment consistently re-iterated by Lucas, so please, try again to disprove it, because it definitely looks like it is what Lucas intended.

I agreed that Vader is below Yoda and Sidious, my whole point was he is in their tier, which is backed up by sources.

If you are illiterate let me know so we don't need to go in circles repeating the same thing, I said if this is ROTS Yoda then he beat any version of Vader, and wins high diff with Vader at his strongest.

No Caption Provided

Not only that, but during a Mission Vader also was able to move his blade faster than Sidious and blocked him. It doesn't matter if Sidious was testing Vader or how much force was used because it was also never stated how much effort was put into blocking Sidious.

This was in Lords of the Sith.

GL Statements about Vader being 80% of Sidious was him talking about ROTJ Sidious, because of ROTJ Vader is when he is at his strongest.

No Caption Provided

So, you're not actually refuting the fact that the vague 80% is unquantifiable? Great.

You were the one who said it was unquantifiable, then tried to use His fight with Starkiller to claim Vader was weaker. I simply said if it is unquantifiable, then Leave it at that. My point is, he is More powerful than Dooku who could make Yoda somewhat struggle...which is facts.

No Caption Provided

Struggled with an amp Dooku who was more powerful.

No Caption Provided

We know Yoda has poor Stamina, we've only seen him fight for at most 30mins long duel with Sidious and he was breathing heavily.

While Vader can duel Starkiller for 2hours without tiring in the slightest.

No Caption Provided

My point stands, Yoda wins against ROTJ Vader...but it's not a cake walk by no means, it will be the hardest Duel of his life only being below the Sidious duel.

Wait, you're legitimately arguing PIS for why Vader lost to Starkiller? Lmao. And no, this isn't just based on gameplay mechanics, it's based on the comic, novelization and cutscenes as well. All sources support Starkiller legitimately beating Vader, it's the core thematic intention of the story, so please don't insult me by arguing PIS, and then basically saying /thread.

It irrelevant because as I just established here, this vader is much weaker than ROTJ Vader who is stated to be at his strongest.

The Starkiller Battle take place before even A New Hope. yes, it was PIS because in the cutscene Vader wrecked Starkiller and his master Jedi Kota or whatever his name shortly after.

This point is still worthless, as I asked for a citation and you've utterly failed to provide one.

Tell me how can you claim something is based on the novel of when you didn't even read the novel for it? shame you say all that but you forget that it stated that Vader power make him basically invincible to Star Killer, and that all his Force lighting attacks that instantly destroys stormtroopers only works as a Distraction to vader.

Vader is highly skilled in manipulating the Force. His knowledge of the dark side is enough to render most of your Force attacks useless.

-- The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Vader's apprentice was both strong in the Force and incredibly aggressive. As a teenager, the apprentice was already more powerful than many Jedi Knights had been during the Clone Wars, and it was only Darth Vader's incredible power and skill that allowed him to defeat the boy in combat.

-- The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor.

-- The Force Unleashed

“Haden Blackman, David Collins (Proxy) and I have discussed the story and it’s pretty great. I don’t think it’s much of spoiler to say that taking Vader captive is not the best idea.”

-- Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer

they were Discussing the story of the TFU 3 sure the game never was release, but that doesn't make his statements any less valid because he was talking with the developers of the game and the story. also, its consistent with the canonical ending of TFU 2.

To end this debate with you, since you brought up the star killer stuff, the same attack that Killed Star killer Vader while injured tanked. the rest of your debate is pointless subjective views from you, As I said Vader was at his strongest during ROTJ in GL canon.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

Like I said, Yoda would beat ROTJ Vader but it not a stomp by any means, ROTJ Vader will give ROTS Yoda a Run for his money.

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000: Bullshit, and Sidious’ opinion isn’t canon. Where does it say Dooku is sub-Vader?

Dooku &amp;gt; IH Kenobi &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Ben ~ Vader

And you don’t dictate what I’ve read and haven’t you buffoon

My scaling is crap... mine? This coming from the moron that puts Vader at the level of Yoda and Plagueis

I’m writing this from mobile... I don’t try to beat someone as idiotic as you, I do it irrespectively

as for your ROTJ Luke being Stronger than Vader GL Debunks that.

Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is.

--https://billmoyers.com/content/mythology-of-star-wars-george-lucas/

Never talk about your scaling to me because it crap. Sidious was speaking facts not opinion. he knows Vader and how powerful he is.

he literally debunks you like I said you are not even worth debating because you suck at it no offense, I am not even taking Jabs or anything i am just speaking the truth. you downplay Vader Alot and then ignore the stuff which Debunks your claims.

I will not be replying to you anymore, just wanted to shut you up real quick.

Avatar image for idrisiangraecus
IdrisianGraecus

583

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#182  Edited By IdrisianGraecus

@mygod000: You are a literal meme to any decent SW debater, just wanted you to know. Even the most hardcore Vader fans like Az find you to be a troll lmfao.

And the quote you supplied refers to influence, and political power lmao

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000: You are a literal meme to any decent SW debater, just wanted you to know. Even the most hardcore Vader fans like Az find you to be a troll and idiot, lmfao.

And the quote you supplied refers to influence, and political power lmao

I said they were equals you buffoon

You are the biggest meme in the star wars community. Saying Vader is only Sub-par Jedi level, Az surely wouldn't agree with anything you said since he also agrees that Vader would destroy Revan.

No, they are equals in DE as Per Sidious own words.

You said ROTJ VAder equals ROTJ Luke which is false.

Luke Never was Vader level until DE.

As for your buddy above Just to prove him wrong again, Vader defeated the Dark Apprentice and Humbled him. The Dark Apprentice is more than the original Galen Marek who could Tank Catch Force Lighting From Sidious.

Yes, Sidious was trying because the Novel states he was desperate during the fight.

you keep throwing insults left and right in this debate, well now i am done debating you, not insulted you not one time. You can't even do something as simple as follow the rules of the site, I am reporting thing to the mods, and Muting you as well.

Avatar image for cj_the_dj
CJ_the_DJ

63

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000:

I agreed that Vader is below Yoda and Sidious, my whole point was he is in their tier, which is backed up by sources.

I said if this is ROTS Yoda then he beat any version of Vader, and wins high diff with Vader at his strongest.

This entire point is just a transparent attempt at making me look bad, without actually readingthe quotes in question. The fact that they are referred to as "real Jedi," yet Lucas states Vader's a crippled old man in a robot suit clearly doesn't imply that he "is in their tier." These kind of misinterpretations are what make you such a walking meme on other forums I post on, you clearly lack reading comprehension. To summarise in your own words:

If you are illiterate let me know so we don't need to go in circles repeating the same thing.

^ Your excuses to the above, are completely bullshit, and the wall of text below is more than likely going to be legitimately painful to respond to, but I'll go into detail, because you clearly haven't understood the topic at hand, whether it be my references to the material or the stances. This is one of the many examples in this post where you misinterpret events to wank Vader.

Not only that, but during a Mission Vader also was able to move his blade faster than Sidious and blocked him. It doesn't matter if Sidious was testing Vader or how much force was used because it was also never stated how much effort was put into blocking Sidious.

Wait, it doesn't matter that Sidious was basically applying minimal effort, because we don't know how much effort Vader was applying? What kind of bullshit logic is that? Given that Vader's effort is unknowm and Sidious's minimal it's impossible to derive any parity between them from this feat.

This was in Lords of the Sith.

Which is a Canon book, meaning it's not at all applicable to Legends, which is what I assume we're debating given that you've used countless snippets of Legends material in your responses to me.

GL Statements about Vader being 80% of Sidious was him talking about ROTJ Sidious, because of ROTJ Vader is when he is at his strongest.

I never claimed otherwise?

You were the one who said it was unquantifiable, then tried to use His fight with Starkiller to claim Vader was weaker. I simply said if it is unquantifiable, then Leave it at that.

No...? I addressed Vader's fights with Starkiller to refute the idea that Vader > Starkiller ~Sidious which is what you were claiming. That is a totally different matter. As I said, you're essentially conceding the 80% quote argument meaning all of Lucas's other quotes stand (the ones that say Yoda is >> him).

My point is, he is More powerful than Dooku who could make Yoda somewhat struggle...which is facts.

The underlined claim is baseless, the rest is true.

We know Yoda has poor Stamina, we've only seen him fight for at most 30mins long duel with Sidious and he was breathing heavily.

While Vader can duel Starkiller for 2hours without tiring in the slightest.

Lmao, Yoda being tired out by Sidious and Dooku of all people doesn't mean he has poor stamina. Your comparison is a shitty one as Yoda getting tired while fighting Dooku isn't remotely the same as Vader not getting tired while fighting pre-novel Starkiller who scales ridiculously below Dooku.

But you know what? Let's reverse this comparison. Yoda can fight equally with Sheev for minutes and only tire towards the end alongside him, meanwhile Vader burns out when trying to overwhelm Luke's defence after like 30 seconds, with Luke not even appearing remotely tired. I'm assuming you're agreed with the assumption that Sheev is > ROTJ Luke.

These comparisons don't favour Vader at all.

My point stands, Yoda wins against ROTJ Vader...but it's not a cake walk by no means, it will be the hardest Duel of his life only being below the Sidious duel.

Unsubstantiated conjecture. As I said before, Vader per statements clearly isn't on Yoda's level.

It irrelevant because as I just established here, this vader is much weaker than ROTJ Vader who is stated to be at his strongest.

You've established ROTJ Vader > TFU Vader, but your claim that he is much stronger is baseless.

The Starkiller Battle take place before even A New Hope. yes, it was PIS because in the cutscene Vader wrecked Starkiller and his master Jedi Kota or whatever his name shortly after.

Which cutscene are you referring to? Anyway, you've failed to respond to the YT video I posted of Starkiller dominating Vader, so your point about the cutscenes appearing favourable to Vader is bunk.

Tell me how can you claim something is based on the novel of when you didn't even read the novel for it? shame you say all that but you forget that it stated that Vader power make him basically invincible to Star Killer, and that all his Force lighting attacks that instantly destroys stormtroopers only works as a Distraction to vader.

I asked for statements saying Vader was more powerful than Starkiller, you've provided none. To address the below:

Vader is highly skilled in manipulating the Force. His knowledge of the dark side is enough to render most of your Force attacks useless.

-- The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Vader making 'Killer's Force attacks useless when he was more exhausted than he had ever been before (including when he spent 13 days wasting away Force energy to substain himself against enduring no food, water and sleep) does not indicate Vader is superior. Especially given that Vader lost this fight, as is depicted in the novelization, which you claimed to have read.

Vader's apprentice was both strong in the Force and incredibly aggressive. As a teenager, the apprentice was already more powerful than many Jedi Knights had been during the Clone Wars, and it was only Darth Vader's incredible power and skill that allowed him to defeat the boy in combat.

-- The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide

Irrelevant. This refers to Galen as teenager, before TFU even takes place, meaning he was pre-prime. At the end of TFU where Galen defends against Sidious's Lightning, he ragdolls Vader.

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Once again this was while Starkiller was exhausted, so this doesn't prove Vader is > him. Moreover, HK-47 states that negative emotions like fear and anger can effect a Jedi's ability to fight. In this case, Galen experienced "horror" "anger" and "self-reproach." These negative emotions would have no doubt hindered Starkiller during the ragdolling.

Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor.

-- The Force Unleashed

You make this point again later, so I'll address it then.

“Haden Blackman, David Collins (Proxy) and I have discussed the story and it’s pretty great. I don’t think it’s much of spoiler to say that taking Vader captive is not the best idea.”

-- Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer

This falls under my previous rebuttals to TFU 3 content. Regardless the statement simply says taking Vader captive isn't a good idea, not that he's > Starkiller.

they were Discussing the story of the TFU 3 sure the game never was release, but that doesn't make his statements any less valid because he was talking with the developers of the game and the story.

It does effect the statements though. It was in the early concept stages, ideas easily could have been changed throughout and given that the game was never made it cannot retcon established TFU 2 material.

also, its consistent with the canonical ending of TFU 2.

How so?

To end this debate with you, since you brought up the star killer stuff, the same attack that Killed Star killer Vader while injured tanked.

That's because Starkiller lowered his defences, meanwhile Vader would have been fully prepared. Furthermore, the explosion erupted out of Starkiller meaning he took the full Force of the blast, meanwhile Vader would have taken the barest fraction of the power (given that it was omni-directional). Plus, it's likely the majority of the power was directed at Sheev, given that the blast that hit Vader barely damaged the armour of nearby Royal Guard's and Stormtroopers, and I'm sure you'll agree SK's power is vastly above such a level.

the rest of your debate is pointless subjective views from you, As I said Vader was at his strongest during ROTJ in GL canon.

For the last time, I never claimed otherwise. Also, some of my other points aren't subjective views, but backed up within the material (e.g. Vader being amped vs Sidious in ROTJ). This is just a pathetic attempt at trying to weasel out of addressing points. I accept your concession.

Like I said, Yoda would beat ROTJ Vader but it not a stomp by any means, ROTJ Vader will give ROTS Yoda a Run for his money.

Yoda>>ROTS Kenobi>>Old Ben=Vader clearly indicates otherwise, as do GL's statements.

Avatar image for idrisiangraecus
IdrisianGraecus

583

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

Avatar image for mygod000
MyGod000

1582

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#186  Edited By MyGod000

@cj_the_dj said:

@mygod000:

I agreed that Vader is below Yoda and Sidious, my whole point was he is in their tier, which is backed up by sources.

I said if this is ROTS Yoda then he beat any version of Vader, and wins high diff with Vader at his strongest.

This entire point is just a transparent attempt at making me look bad, without actually readingthe quotes in question. The fact that they are referred to as "real Jedi," yet Lucas states Vader's a crippled old man in a robot suit clearly doesn't imply that he "is in their tier." These kind of misinterpretations are what make you such a walking meme on other forums I post on, you clearly lack reading comprehension. To summarise in your own words:

If you are illiterate let me know so we don't need to go in circles repeating the same thing.

^ Your excuses to the above, are completely bullshit, and the wall of text below is more than likely going to be legitimately painful to respond to, but I'll go into detail, because you clearly haven't understood the topic at hand, whether it be my references to the material or the stances. This is one of the many examples in this post where you misinterpret events to wank Vader.

Not only that, but during a Mission Vader also was able to move his blade faster than Sidious and blocked him. It doesn't matter if Sidious was testing Vader or how much force was used because it was also never stated how much effort was put into blocking Sidious.

Wait, it doesn't matter that Sidious was basically applying minimal effort, because we don't know how much effort Vader was applying? What kind of bullshit logic is that? Given that Vader's effort is unknowm and Sidious's minimal it's impossible to derive any parity between them from this feat.

This was in Lords of the Sith.

Which is a Canon book, meaning it's not at all applicable to Legends, which is what I assume we're debating given that you've used countless snippets of Legends material in your responses to me.

GL Statements about Vader being 80% of Sidious was him talking about ROTJ Sidious, because of ROTJ Vader is when he is at his strongest.

I never claimed otherwise?

You were the one who said it was unquantifiable, then tried to use His fight with Starkiller to claim Vader was weaker. I simply said if it is unquantifiable, then Leave it at that.

No...? I addressed Vader's fights with Starkiller to refute the idea that Vader > Starkiller ~Sidious which is what you were claiming. That is a totally different matter. As I said, you're essentially conceding the 80% quote argument meaning all of Lucas's other quotes stand (the ones that say Yoda is >> him).

My point is, he is More powerful than Dooku who could make Yoda somewhat struggle...which is facts.

The underlined claim is baseless, the rest is true.

We know Yoda has poor Stamina, we've only seen him fight for at most 30mins long duel with Sidious and he was breathing heavily.

While Vader can duel Starkiller for 2hours without tiring in the slightest.

Lmao, Yoda being tired out by Sidious and Dooku of all people doesn't mean he has poor stamina. Your comparison is a shitty one as Yoda getting tired while fighting Dooku isn't remotely the same as Vader not getting tired while fighting pre-novel Starkiller who scales ridiculously below Dooku.

But you know what? Let's reverse this comparison. Yoda can fight equally with Sheev for minutes and only tire towards the end alongside him, meanwhile Vader burns out when trying to overwhelm Luke's defence after like 30 seconds, with Luke not even appearing remotely tired. I'm assuming you're agreed with the assumption that Sheev is > ROTJ Luke.

These comparisons don't favour Vader at all.

My point stands, Yoda wins against ROTJ Vader...but it's not a cake walk by no means, it will be the hardest Duel of his life only being below the Sidious duel.

Unsubstantiated conjecture. As I said before, Vader per statements clearly isn't on Yoda's level.

It irrelevant because as I just established here, this vader is much weaker than ROTJ Vader who is stated to be at his strongest.

You've established ROTJ Vader > TFU Vader, but your claim that he is much stronger is baseless.

The Starkiller Battle take place before even A New Hope. yes, it was PIS because in the cutscene Vader wrecked Starkiller and his master Jedi Kota or whatever his name shortly after.

Which cutscene are you referring to? Anyway, you've failed to respond to the YT video I posted of Starkiller dominating Vader, so your point about the cutscenes appearing favourable to Vader is bunk.

Tell me how can you claim something is based on the novel of when you didn't even read the novel for it? shame you say all that but you forget that it stated that Vader power make him basically invincible to Star Killer, and that all his Force lighting attacks that instantly destroys stormtroopers only works as a Distraction to vader.

I asked for statements saying Vader was more powerful than Starkiller, you've provided none. To address the below:

Vader is highly skilled in manipulating the Force. His knowledge of the dark side is enough to render most of your Force attacks useless.

-- The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Vader making 'Killer's Force attacks useless when he was more exhausted than he had ever been before (including when he spent 13 days wasting away Force energy to substain himself against enduring no food, water and sleep) does not indicate Vader is superior. Especially given that Vader lost this fight, as is depicted in the novelization, which you claimed to have read.

Vader's apprentice was both strong in the Force and incredibly aggressive. As a teenager, the apprentice was already more powerful than many Jedi Knights had been during the Clone Wars, and it was only Darth Vader's incredible power and skill that allowed him to defeat the boy in combat.

-- The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide

Irrelevant. This refers to Galen as teenager, before TFU even takes place, meaning he was pre-prime. At the end of TFU where Galen defends against Sidious's Lightning, he ragdolls Vader.

You grab your sabers and attack, but Vader is too powerful. He tosses you away like a rag doll.

-- Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide

Once again this was while Starkiller was exhausted, so this doesn't prove Vader is > him. Moreover, HK-47 states that negative emotions like fear and anger can effect a Jedi's ability to fight. In this case, Galen experienced "horror" "anger" and "self-reproach." These negative emotions would have no doubt hindered Starkiller during the ragdolling.

Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.

He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor.

-- The Force Unleashed

You make this point again later, so I'll address it then.

“Haden Blackman, David Collins (Proxy) and I have discussed the story and it’s pretty great. I don’t think it’s much of spoiler to say that taking Vader captive is not the best idea.”

-- Far, Far Away: Episode VIII: Sam Witwer

This falls under my previous rebuttals to TFU 3 content. Regardless the statement simply says taking Vader captive isn't a good idea, not that he's > Starkiller.

they were Discussing the story of the TFU 3 sure the game never was release, but that doesn't make his statements any less valid because he was talking with the developers of the game and the story.

It does effect the statements though. It was in the early concept stages, ideas easily could have been changed throughout and given that the game was never made it cannot retcon established TFU 2 material.

also, its consistent with the canonical ending of TFU 2.

How so?

To end this debate with you, since you brought up the star killer stuff, the same attack that Killed Star killer Vader while injured tanked.

That's because Starkiller lowered his defences, meanwhile Vader would have been fully prepared. Furthermore, the explosion erupted out of Starkiller meaning he took the full Force of the blast, meanwhile Vader would have taken the barest fraction of the power (given that it was omni-directional). Plus, it's likely the majority of the power was directed at Sheev, given that the blast that hit Vader barely damaged the armour of nearby Royal Guard's and Stormtroopers, and I'm sure you'll agree SK's power is vastly above such a level.

the rest of your debate is pointless subjective views from you, As I said Vader was at his strongest during ROTJ in GL canon.

For the last time, I never claimed otherwise. Also, some of my other points aren't subjective views, but backed up within the material (e.g. Vader being amped vs Sidious in ROTJ). This is just a pathetic attempt at trying to weasel out of addressing points. I accept your concession.

Like I said, Yoda would beat ROTJ Vader but it not a stomp by any means, ROTJ Vader will give ROTS Yoda a Run for his money.

Yoda>>ROTS Kenobi>>Old Ben=Vader clearly indicates otherwise, as do GL's statements.

This entire point is just a transparent attempt at making me look bad, without actually readingthe quotes in question. The fact that they are referred to as "real Jedi," yet Lucas states Vader's a crippled old man in a robot suit clearly doesn't imply that he "is in their tier." These kind of misinterpretations are what make you such a walking meme on other forums I post on, you clearly lack reading comprehension. To summarise in your own words:

that was mainly about Vader not being able to do Back flips and tricks, like Jedi in the past was able to do because of Vader's injuries.

^ Your excuses to the above, are completely bullshit, and the wall of text below is more than likely going to be legitimately painful to respond to, but I'll go into detail, because you clearly haven't understood the topic at hand, whether it be my references to the material or the stances. This is one of the many examples in this post where you misinterpret events to wank Vader.

No, one is wanking Vader. Vader being a threat to the ROTJ Emperor Sidious speaks for itself, and should tell you he isn't as weak as you claim he is.

He collected some of these Force adepts and took them to his citadel on Byss, where he initiated them in the powers of the dark side. All of those he taught, human or alien, were only taught enough to fulfilll Palpatine's wishes. He didn't want any of them rising up against him. Bad enough that Vader was as powerful as he was, though Palpatine was certain of Vader’s loyalty to the dark side.

-- The Essential Guide To Characters

Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful.

-- Beware The Sith

This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.

-- Jedi Battles

already said that Vader eventually surpassed his ROTS counter part.

Wait, it doesn't matter that Sidious was basically applying minimal effort, because we don't know how much effort Vader was applying? What kind of bullshit logic is that? Given that Vader's effort is unknowm and Sidious's minimal it's impossible to derive any parity between them from this feat.

Okay, But the fact that Sidious saw Vader is a threat makes that point moot.

Which is a Canon book, meaning it's not at all applicable to Legends, which is what I assume we're debating given that you've used countless snippets of Legends material in your responses to me.

Yea, I know it canon, i just wanted to say it for the hell of it actually.

I never claimed otherwise?

okay, so we agree that ROTJ Vader =80% of ROTJ Sidious.

Now, remember that ROTJ Sidious is more powerful than ROTS Sidious by multiple sources.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

So, Vader being rival to a stronger Sidious...I ask you why is impossible for him to be as that close to Yoda who fought a weaker Sidious?

No...? I addressed Vader's fights with Starkiller to refute the idea that Vader > Starkiller ~Sidious which is what you were claiming. That is a totally different matter. As I said, you're essentially conceding the 80% quote argument meaning all of Lucas's other quotes stand (the ones that say Yoda is >> him).

I never said Star Killer~Sheev. I said Starkiller was able to grab Sidious force lighting which he did. I Also said he did that while amp to the highest degree while he was one with the force.

Regardless, This was Vader and Sidious before ROTJ which is them at there strongest before we see Sidious in DE. You were the one that said Starkiller was beating up Vader and and asking for quotes of Vader being stronger than Starkiller.

The underlined claim is baseless, the rest is true.

not really. Vader being the strongest he ever been by ROTJ includes Anakin who defeated Dooku.

then there is the statements that Sidious Viewed Vader as a threat to his rule. Heavily implies that Vader will give Yoda a Run for his money.

Lmao, Yoda being tired out by Sidious and Dooku of all people doesn't mean he has poor stamina. Your comparison is a shitty one as Yoda getting tired while fighting Dooku isn't remotely the same as Vader not getting tired while fighting pre-novel Starkiller who scales ridiculously below Dooku.

But you know what? Let's reverse this comparison. Yoda can fight equally with Sheev for minutes and only tire towards the end alongside him, meanwhile Vader burns out when trying to overwhelm Luke's defence after like 30 seconds, with Luke not even appearing remotely tired. I'm assuming you're agreed with the assumption that Sheev is > ROTJ Luke.

These comparisons don't favour Vader at all.

that not that big of a deal actually. Yoda doesn't have great stamina, because of Vader suit he can fight for much longer. are you seriously saying Yoda can fight for 2hours? Regardless of it being a sparing match is not really relevant, at the end of the day you are still exerting energy.

in the Novelization, Luke used the Dark side to defeat Vader; the same Dark side Anakin used to over power Dooku. you leave much to be desired in your post... Luke also stated Vader was conflicted as well during there fight.

Yes, ROTJ Sidious>ROTJ Luke.

Unsubstantiated conjecture. As I said before, Vader per statements clearly isn't on Yoda's level.

He is as per Sidious, who is much stronger than the one that Yoda fought saw him as a threat to his power.

You've established ROTJ Vader > TFU Vader, but your claim that he is much stronger is baseless.

I can say the same about your point about Ben Ken-obi<<Obi-wan

Were did it say that he was massively weaker? you are exaggerating be honest with yourself here man, because it was never said he was massively weaker like you are claiming.

I saw in like one Novel were it said he was weaker but nothing of real note that he got a lot weaker then his self.

just an FYI Dooku was unsure of himself of being able to beat ROTS Obi-wan.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Ben-Kenobi was only marginally weaker then ROTS Obi-wan, not by much to really make a huge difference.

Which cutscene are you referring to? Anyway, you've failed to respond to the YT video I posted of Starkiller dominating Vader, so your point about the cutscenes appearing favourable to Vader is bunk.

No Caption Provided

shortly after this he force pushes StarKiller and is owning him until Ploxy Obi-wan comes in an attack Vader who instantly owns it then Star killer is gone.

Again, your point is moot because Starkiller while shooting Force lighting did no type of damage at all to Vader.

No Caption Provided

stated that Vader is too powerful.

I asked for statements saying Vader was more powerful than Starkiller, you've provided none. To address the below:

the above post proves that point.

Vader making 'Killer's Force attacks useless when he was more exhausted than he had ever been before (including when he spent 13 days wasting away Force energy to substain himself against enduring no food, water and sleep) does not indicate Vader is superior. Especially given that Vader lost this fight, as is depicted in the novelization, which you claimed to have read.

Again, pretty irrelevant.

He stopped her before she flew off the edge of the roof, at least, but the grisly crunch of bones when she landed was unmistakable. Her head was bent at an impossible angle, and her eyes didn't track him as he ran toward her.

"Juno!"

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.

The Force Unleashed II

No Caption Provided

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Force Unleashed II

No Caption Provided

Like I said Vader didn't take any life Threatening injuries from This, and this was raged amped Starkiller.

You ignored the fact that Vader defeated the Dark Apprentice who is more powerful than even the original.

just for a Little Scaling to let you know:

Vader>Dark Apprentice>Original StarKiller TFU(one with the Force)>force Rage amp Starkiller clone TFU 2

as you see my scaling isn't going to be some exaggerated crap like some member do.

Irrelevant. This refers to Galen as teenager, before TFU even takes place, meaning he was pre-prime. At the end of TFU where Galen defends against Sidious's Lightning, he ragdolls Vader.

irrelevant because the Dark Apprentice is more powerful than any version of Starkiller.

Once again this was while Starkiller was exhausted, so this doesn't prove Vader is > him. Moreover, HK-47 states that negative emotions like fear and anger can effect a Jedi's ability to fight. In this case, Galen experienced "horror" "anger" and "self-reproach." These negative emotions would have no doubt hindered Starkiller during the ragdolling.

Sure, Starkiller did the same thing to Vader to unbalance him. That's neither here or there, and is moot because Vader defeated Dark Apprentice which is stronger and more powerful than the Original Starkiller who when he became oneness with the force was able to grab Sidious force lighting.

You make this point again later, so I'll address it then.

it not really needed but okay.

This falls under my previous rebuttals to TFU 3 content. Regardless the statement simply says taking Vader captive isn't a good idea, not that he's > Starkiller.

Okay, at least you are acknowledging this, and Starkiller is pretty much over right now.

It does effect the statements though. It was in the early concept stages, ideas easily could have been changed throughout and given that the game was never made it cannot retcon established TFU 2 material.

well, i disagree but okay.

How so?

because Boba fett who had be previously hired by Vader, Follows Your ship which implies the duel was all part of Vader plans.

That's because Starkiller lowered his defences, meanwhile Vader would have been fully prepared. Furthermore, the explosion erupted out of Starkiller meaning he took the full Force of the blast, meanwhile Vader would have taken the barest fraction of the power (given that it was omni-directional). Plus, it's likely the majority of the power was directed at Sheev, given that the blast that hit Vader barely damaged the armour of nearby Royal Guard's and Stormtroopers, and I'm sure you'll agree SK's power is vastly above such a level.

LMFAO okay. It's pointless because i'll say it again... DARK APPRENTICE IS more powerful than that Starkiller and Vader defeated him.

For the last time, I never claimed otherwise. Also, some of my other points aren't subjective views, but backed up within the material (e.g. Vader being amped vs Sidious in ROTJ). This is just a pathetic attempt at trying to weasel out of addressing points. I accept your concession.

you ignore the condition of Vader prior to being Amped those. It stated that He is at his weakest he has ever been prior to him overpowering Sidious.

both sources State this as well.

Yoda>>ROTS Kenobi>>Old Ben=Vader clearly indicates otherwise, as do GL's statements.

You see again, you are exaggerating the scale again.

there is no proof that Old Ben is that much weaker than His ROTS Counter part otherwise show me.

“This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”

-- A New Hope

Old Ben has grown in Knowledge of the force. you can only say ROTS Obi-Wan>Old Ben.

Regardless, ROTS Obi-wan can take down Dooku who is Yoda tier.

You did a good try at least you didn't start insulting like other member did which makes you massively better overall. you can't ignore what is being shown to you, the difference from isn't nearly as wide as you are making it out to be.

Yoda>ROTJ Vader>ROTS Mace>ROTS Obi-wan>ANH Ben.

OT: Yoda Wins here against Revan pretty handily. Sheev has been stated the strongest Sith Since after TPM, and is already stated the strongest Sith ever.

Yoda being able to take on ROTS Sidious give him the win easily.

Avatar image for god_spawn
God_Spawn

43857

Forum Posts

31858

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 43

User Lists: 10

#187 God_Spawn  Moderator
Avatar image for idrisiangraecus
IdrisianGraecus

583

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

#188  Edited By IdrisianGraecus

@god_spawn: Alright, though may I ask, is MyGod saying that I’m bad at debating considered an insult? May I also ask what specifically you’re regarding as an insult?

Thank you

Avatar image for god_spawn
God_Spawn

43857

Forum Posts

31858

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 43

User Lists: 10

#189  Edited By God_Spawn  Moderator
Avatar image for cj_the_dj
CJ_the_DJ

63

Forum Posts

0

Wiki Points

0

Followers

Reviews: 0

User Lists: 0

@mygod000:

Sorry, I've been busy these past few days, so it's taken me a while to draft a response.

that was mainly about Vader not being able to do Back flips and tricks, like Jedi in the past was able to do because of Vader's injuries.

It was also related to his speed and general fighting ability, it's not just about doing backflips and tricks, so no, Vader is still vastly weaker than the top Jedi of the Prequels.

No, one is wanking Vader. Vader being a threat to the ROTJ Emperor Sidious speaks for itself, and should tell you he isn't as weak as you claim he is.

Erm, Vader's a threat to Sidious, because he's a powerful Force User in close proximity to him, not because he's at all close to The Emperor combatively. We can see he isn't based on Luke Skywalker, his canonical equal being one-shotted by a holding back Emperor.

already said that Vader eventually surpassed his ROTS counter part.

Contradicted by George Lucas.

"He's lost a lot of power and a lot of potential to become more powerful than the Emperor."

Source: The Empire Strikes Back Director's Commentary

---

Okay, But the fact that Sidious saw Vader is a threat makes that point moot.

Concession accepted.

Yea, I know it canon, i just wanted to say it for the hell of it actually.

So, now we're spouting out bullshit "for the hell of it?" Great, does that mean I can use material not relevant to Legends as well, like Vader losing to TPM Darth Maul in Resurrection?

okay, so we agree that ROTJ Vader =80% of ROTJ Sidious. So, Vader being rival to a stronger Sidious...I ask you why is impossible for him to be as that close to Yoda who fought a weaker Sidious?

The 80% quote is vague, we have no reference point. Is 0% a normal human? Is 50% a Jedi Padawan? Moreover, the context of the quote isn't even meant to hype up Vader, and Lucas prefaces it with a "maybe." Using this quote to indicate parity does not make for a convincing argument. Meanwhile, Yoda has actual parity with Sidious, he is testified by multiple sources to be equal to him, and matches him in the final Lightning exchange of their fight.

I never said Star Killer~Sheev. I said Starkiller was able to grab Sidious force lighting which he did.

I mean by arguing Starkiller can block his Force Lightning you essentially are saying Starkiller ~ Sheev

I Also said he did that while amp to the highest degree while he was one with the force.

Starkiller wasn't amped in that engagement.

Regardless, This was Vader and Sidious before ROTJ which is them at there strongest before we see Sidious in DE. You were the one that said Starkiller was beating up Vader and and asking for quotes of Vader being stronger than Starkiller.

Yeah, I was, relevance? Starkiller did stomp Vader in their first fight, in the final VG cutscene for the Wii version he ragdolls him, and in the novel when he understands a better way to kill he Telekinetically dominates him.

not really. Vader being the strongest he ever been by ROTJ includes Anakin who defeated Dooku.

That's a POV statement from Vader who views Anakin as weak, he's not a reliable narrator especially not when other sources testify he's less powerful than Anakin. Moreover, Vader was amped by Sidious in that scene, so he wasn't at his normal power level.

then there is the statements that Sidious Viewed Vader as a threat to his rule. Heavily implies that Vader will give Yoda a Run for his money.

Citation needed.

that not that big of a deal actually. Yoda doesn't have great stamina, because of Vader suit he can fight for much longer. are you seriously saying Yoda can fight for 2hours?

Yes, I am, saying he could fight that version of Galen for 2 hours. All of your claims regarding Yoda's stamina are thus far unsubstantiated.

Regardless of it being a sparing match is not really relevant, at the end of the day you are still exerting energy.

Yes, but when you're fighting a vastly weaker opponent (Dooku is stronger than Starkiller was at that point) and the duel isn't being fought with the same intensity the comparison falls flat.

in the Novelization, Luke used the Dark side to defeat Vader; the same Dark side Anakin used to over power Dooku.

Which is irrelevant given that Luke didn't use the Dark Side in the section of the fight I cited, he was actually holding back.

you leave much to be desired in your post...

I could say the same in regards to yours.

Luke also stated Vader was conflicted as well during there fight.

Luke's musings are irrelevant when Vader's POV clearly depicts him as going all out and the comic states he brought his "full strength and power against the younger man."

I can say the same about your point about Ben Ken-obi<<Obi-wan

Were did it say that he was massively weaker? you are exaggerating be honest with yourself here man, because it was never said he was massively weaker like you are claiming.

I saw in like one Novel were it said he was weaker but nothing of real note that he got a lot weaker then his self.

Ben is described as a "shadow of his former self" clearly indicating he is nowhere near as strong as his ROTS counterpart.

just an FYI Dooku was unsure of himself of being able to beat ROTS Obi-wan.

Your passage says nothing of the sort. As to why Kenobi was able to defend against Dooku:

1. Dooku thought Kenobi was using Ataru and struck solely at his legs to get him to jump in the air as a typical Ataru practioner would.

2. Dooku was tired from fighting Skywalker+Kenobi.

3. Dooku was holding back.

When we remove variables 1 and 3 Dooku ragdolls Kenobi as evidenced later in the fight where he easily dispatches Kenobi with Telekinesis.

shortly after this he force pushes StarKiller and is owning him until Ploxy Obi-wan comes in an attack Vader who instantly owns it then Star killer is gone.

Vader dominating Kota is irrelevant, and he destroyed an injured Starkiller who had just had a massive stone table slammed at high speeds into his stomach.

Again, your point is moot because Starkiller while shooting Force lighting did no type of damage at all to Vader.

... He overwhelmed Vader in that cutscene lmao. Moreover, this was while Starkiller was exhausted, no parity can be derived between them from this.

stated that Vader is too powerful.

Vader was too powerful for an exhausted Starkiller whose emotions were in turmoil. When you remove the second variable, Starkiller beats him, as can be seen in the novelizations depiction of the fight.

Again, pretty irrelevant.

Excuse me, why the hell is the fact that Starkiller was exhausted irrelevant? It makes it completely impossible to ascribe any parity between Starkiller and Vader if he was weakened throughout their fight.

Like I said Vader didn't take any life Threatening injuries from This, and this was raged amped Starkiller.

The passages you posted take place at completely different points in the fight, throughout the whole thing Starkiller is resisting his anger (as shown in the novelization), and in the one exchange where he embraces it (as you cited), it's likely his negative emotions hindered him.

You ignored the fact that Vader defeated the Dark Apprentice who is more powerful than even the original.

just for a Little Scaling to let you know:

Vader>Dark Apprentice>Original StarKiller TFU(one with the Force)>force Rage amp Starkiller clone TFU 2

as you see my scaling isn't going to be some exaggerated crap like some member do.

Vader didn't defeat The Dark Apprentice, it's totally plausible the image you posted is from the aftermath of Galen fighting his clones, not Vader.

irrelevant because the Dark Apprentice is more powerful than any version of Starkiller.

Goalpost switching but addressed regardless.

Sure, Starkiller did the same thing to Vader to unbalance him.

Which failed... the intensity of Vader's attack "redoubled" as per the novelization.

That's neither here or there, and is moot because Vader defeated Dark Apprentice which is stronger and more powerful than the Original Starkiller who when he became oneness with the force was able to grab Sidious force lighting.

Needless repetition and more goalpost switching. I accept your concession.

Okay, at least you are acknowledging this, and Starkiller is pretty much over right now.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing here.

well, i disagree but okay.

There's nothing to disagree with, this is canon policy. Anything not officially published isn't canon, these ideas could have changed during production, compared to the set in stone statements from TFU 2.

because Boba fett who had be previously hired by Vader, Follows Your ship which implies the duel was all part of Vader plans.

Boba followed Starkiller's ship to kill him and collect the Empire's bounty, not to rescue Vader, as displayed in the TFU 2 comic.

LMFAO okay. It's pointless because i'll say it again... DARK APPRENTICE IS more powerful than that Starkiller and Vader defeated him.

Goalpost switching and another concession.

you ignore the condition of Vader prior to being Amped those. It stated that He is at his weakest he has ever been prior to him overpowering Sidious.

both sources State this as well.

Yeah, he was at his weakest prior to killing Sidious, but he received an amp as stated by these sources, and it moved him above his regular base power level.

You see again, you are exaggerating the scale again.

there is no proof that Old Ben is that much weaker than His ROTS Counter part otherwise show me.

Addressed already, and the quote you posted below, is Obi-Wan referring to his ability to become a Force Ghost.

Old Ben has grown in Knowledge of the force. you can only say ROTS Obi-Wan>Old Ben.

Regardless, ROTS Obi-wan can take down Dooku who is Yoda tier.

You did a good try at least you didn't start insulting like other member did which makes you massively better overall. you can't ignore what is being shown to you, the difference from isn't nearly as wide as you are making it out to be.

Yoda>ROTJ Vader>ROTS Mace>ROTS Obi-wan>ANH Ben.

Just another general summary, all of this has been addressed.

OT: Yoda Wins here against Revan pretty handily. Sheev has been stated the strongest Sith Since after TPM, and is already stated the strongest Sith ever.

Yoda being able to take on ROTS Sidious give him the win easily.

Agreed, Yoda doesn't win easily though, it's a good fight.