Revan murks
Revan vs Count Dooku and General Grievous
What evidence is there for this? It doesn't make sense to make a massive jump in power over such a short period of time. Especially given that Yoda would have reached the limits of his power centuries earlier, and if he's at all weaker than his peak in AOTC, it's by a little and probably only due to lack of arduous up-keep.
Yoda reaching his peak before the PT is a view I'm inclined to agree with. But I believe Yoda regresses after this (The Jedi Path has him lifting 4, instead of 5 Muntuur stones).
But there is some reason to believe that, as per the ROTS novel, that Yoda breaking the veil of the dark side cloud upon discovering and confronting the truth of Sidious, was actually stronger than before. There's too much inconsistency in G-canon otherwise. "To fight this lord Sidious, strong enough you are not.." - Yoda to Kenobi. But strong enough to fight Dooku's slayer? While the munchkin Jedi faces his superior? That despite Anakin being the strongest, fastest, most powerful Jedi ever at the begging of the book, yoda is then the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known by it's end.
Indeed, I think that every one of the protagonists became stronger in ROTS - Mace, Kenobi and Yoda all received some sort of boon within the book itself. For the two seniors that power might have been a result of realizing the Truth. And for Kenobi, it might be that same factor along with "letting go".
Ventress in the world of The Cestus Deception, yes, but not Disney or legends Ventress.
We know that Ventress pushed Mace so much so that he "needed all his skills" to win. The second time, he was sweating in bladelock with her while she was smiling and seemed to be at ease, indicating she had grown more powerful than him. Even if not, she clearly wasn't far off him. And as you know, Windu has quotes explicitly making him a peer of TPM Yoda, He's sometimes noted as the best at dueling in the Order during the Clone Wars, so this is yet another indicator of Ventress being in the ballpark of early iterations of Yoda.
What makes you say that Mace was much weaker then? Growth in most any field takes years, and progresses at a sluggish pace. And that's with continuous training. Even the gap between TPM and ROTS Mace shouldn't be anything but decent.
According to Kreia, the only way people grow is through conflict. Mace fights a war, naturally he's going to grow. The ROTS Novel itself says, "There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid". Explicitly it's noted that he gains a new understanding of the darkness and his own fear across the war. He grows immensely. Considering Ventress' standing against an undeniable peer of TPM and AOTC Yoda, it's hard to not believe that Ventress isn't a peer of AOTC Yoda, if not a superior.
@king-ragnar@richard96 Here's the case, if you were interested, for Ventress > AOTC Yoda.
IIRC, Adas wasn't alive when Pall took over the Sith, so I fail to see how he scales above Adas in power.
Pall wasn't, no, but he has superiority quotes over him, like this:
Eventually, almost two-dozen millennia after Adas' death, a proper successor to Adas seemed to come at last. Known in Republic space as the Exiles, traitorous Jedi defeated in a galactic war called the Hundred-Year Darkness arrived on Korriban and cowed the Sith people with their astounding Force abilities, lightsabers, and superior technology. With the help of the ruling king's Shadow Hand, these Jen'jidai, as the Sith called them, lured the Sith monarch into their confidence and destroyed him. Never anticipating this stunning sequence of events, the Sith people concluded that the dark Jedi were themselves more powerful gods than even the Sith'ari. Bestowing the Exiles with Adas' holocron, the reign of the first Jen'ari, or "Dark Lord" of the Sith began.
Adas scaling is primarily based off of Jinn being affected by Adas' holocron, so Pall being fine against it is an undeniable indication of superiority comparatively. Some buy the SF Malak quote, I know you don't, but that's another line of scaling (ala Amanoa). Pall notes that they were stronger than those that came before them, including Adas. There's a few other quotes iirc about how they're stronger than Adas, but I can't find those at the moment.
Physically, yes, but not skill-wise or power-wise.
True, but the idea is that Jinn's power growth is pretty minimal, as Qui-Gon's superior augmentation via greater force power doesn't offset his physical slowing.
Can you prove that attaining mastery over the Star Forge is a power feat instead of a mental one?
Can you prove the inverse? I mean, Revan has greater mastery than Malak (as of pre-KOTOR), yet Malak drives the SF to greater lengths of power. Logically, since Malak > Revan (Darth), it should be based on power. If that doesn't convince you, note that it's not saying Malak is superior to the entire SF, but it's that he's superior by merit of the Exiles' power compared to the Star Map. A Star Map is the source of the Exiles' power per Pall, but it's utterly meaningless to Revan and Malak as of even the Mandalorian War. Ajunta Pall describes Revan (as of Korriban)'s presence in the force as blinding. There's an undeniable intent as well as concrete showings that puts Revan and Malak, at least by the end of KOTOR, are far, far beyond the Jedi Exiles.
Dooku being equal to Yoda is more than enough to place him over Revan in power, and stalemating Yoda in sabers while exhausted is also more impressive than anything Revan has done with a blade.
Equal to AOTC Yoda, who's factually inferior to ROTS Yoda and Sidious. Dooku considers ROTS Sidious "beyond power", yet Sidious is stalemated by Yoda. Dooku is close to Yoda as of ROTS, imo, but he'd lose each time, though it'd be a close fight. He also has a stylistic advantage (he's like 75 inches tall, and is a fencer, Yoda's like 3 feet tall and is jumping all over the place, Dooku has a mega reach advantage too.
Yoda reaching his peak before the PT is a view I'm inclined to agree with. But I believe Yoda regresses after this (The Jedi Path has him lifting 4, instead of 5 Muntuur stones).
I thought it was 5 instead of 7, as it was being compared to Grandmaster Fae who could lift all of them. But, I agree. It shouldn't be a large margin, however.
But there is some reason to believe that, as per the ROTS novel, that Yoda breaking the veil of the dark side cloud upon discovering and confronting the truth of Sidious, was actually stronger than before.
If someone broke the veil, all the Jedi would become stronger. Plus, this doesn't address the topic at hand, which would be Yoda allegedly undergoing a massive power growth in between AOTC and the TCW episode wherein he casually dominated Ventress.
There's too much inconsistency in G-canon otherwise. "To fight this lord Sidious, strong enough you are not.." - Yoda to Kenobi. But strong enough to fight Dooku's slayer? While the munchkin Jedi faces his superior? That despite Anakin being the strongest, fastest, most powerful Jedi ever at the begging of the book, yoda is then the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known by it's end.
Kenobi knows his apprentice, and he's got a higher chance of handling Dooku as opposed to Sidious. Or, Yoda himself has a grounded handle on Anakin's actual abilities, and knows that he isn't as strong as Dooku.
Indeed, I think that every one of the protagonists became stronger in ROTS - Mace, Kenobi and Yoda all received some sort of boon within the book itself. For the two seniors that power might have been a result of realizing the Truth. And for Kenobi, it might be that same factor along with "letting go".
Could be, within the context of that novel.
We know that Ventress pushed Mace so much so that he "needed all his skills" to win.
The Fact File is a secondary source to the actual comic itself, which portrays a different story. Mace didn't defeat Ventress, and he was just playing around with her while thinking. He wasn't trying to hurt her, and his superiority even in that state was so obvious that they mutually agreed he was better and she fled.
In short, a holding-back Mace outclassed Ventress.
The second time, he was sweating in bladelock with her while she was smiling and seemed to be at ease, indicating she had grown more powerful than him.
That's just confidence, it doesn't indicate anything else.
Even if not, she clearly wasn't far off him.
The comic you presented does portray her as sharing parity with Mace, I'll grant. However, this is contradicted by the fact that:
A) Early-war Ventress is significantly worse than early-war Kenobi, who casually toyed with her on Teth:
"It was a lot of fun to do this scene with James. Kenobi, most of the time has to play the serious one. But here we get to see him relax and just have a bit of fun banter with Ventress. He's very relaxed, he ultimately is in no danger from her. He's just buying time for Anakin."
-- Dave Filoni
B) Early-war Ventress is consistently portrayed as ~ early-war Anakin. They routinely engage in closely-matched duels, with Skywalker overpowering her in combat, and Ventress overpowering him with the Force. Be it on Yavin,or on Teth,or Kamino, it's firmly established that they are relative peers.
C) Early-war Ventress was losing badly to early-war Luminara Unduli. Ventress initially ambushes Luminara, injuring her with a blast of hot steam to the eye. Then she charges Luminara, who simply dances around her:
Ventress attacks, Luminara outmanuevers her, then stonewalls the next couple of strikes. At one point, you can see Ventress nearly runs off the cliff.
This whole dancing around thing is similar to how Dooku outmanuevered Savage:
In anycase, after being repeatedly outmanuevered by an injured Luminara, the duel pauses, and Ventress taunts her opponent. However, Luminara then makes this remark as to Ventress' abilities:
"Even with my vision clouded, I recognize the fighting style of Count Dooku. Your version is unrefined... amateurish, sloppy."
In other words, "you're trash." Not exactly a flattering analysis, and it definitely doesn't sound like Ventress is actually pressuring Luminara.
Ventress only does well after this scathing criticism -- she visibly becomes enraged, screaming in anger as she attacks. It's confirmed in other source material that this rage empowered Ventress and caused her ability to compete with Luminara:
"Luminara's strict discipline makes it hard for her to believe that a wild, untrained user of the Force like Asajj Ventress could ever be her equal in lightsaber combat. Aboard the Tranquility, she discovers her error: Ventress' rage gives her surprising power."
-- The Clone Wars: Character Encyclopedia
In reality, base Ventress was doing poorly against an injured Luminara -- given the dialogue, I'd wager that Luminara wasn't struggling either.
If Ventress was anywhere near Mace -- and by default, Yoda & Dooku -- she would have effortlessly stomped all these people. But she didn't. The instance you showed is an inconsistency, an outlier that conflicts with the majority of lore.
And as you know, Windu has quotes explicitly making him a peer of TPM Yoda, He's sometimes noted as the best at dueling in the Order during the Clone Wars, so this is yet another indicator of Ventress being in the ballpark of early iterations of Yoda.
Ventress has always been Dooku's underling, and Mace has always been Dooku's peer. It makes no sense for Ventress to ever come anywhere near the top tiers, and this shows in her feats.
According to Kreia, the only way people grow is through conflict. Mace fights a war, naturally he's going to grow.
That conflicts with logic. Honing your abilities in a controlled environment is always a more effective way of improving one's skills, as opposed to fighting in life or death situations. Plus, I can cancel out your source with another source, which contends the very opposite:
"Halcyon barked out a laugh that made nearby diners turn to look -- but when they saw that he was a Jedi, their expressions of disapproval vanished and they returned to their own meals and conversations.
'Maybe you’re too impatient. But mostly, your progress isn’t as fast as it might be because you’re too busy fighting in a war. What you need is for this war to end...'
'Do you really think so?'
'As sure as I know that nobody has ever impressed Obi-Wan with their potential as much as you have.' Anakin shook his head."
-- Jedi Trial
So yeah.
The ROTS Novel itself says, "There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid". Explicitly it's noted that he gains a new understanding of the darkness and his own fear across the war. He grows immensely.
Nowhere does it say that he grew massively. Implying that he grew does not equate to growing significantly, that's an unfounded leap you're making.
Considering Ventress' standing against an undeniable peer of TPM and AOTC Yoda, it's hard to not believe that Ventress isn't a peer of AOTC Yoda, if not a superior.
Ventress has been consistently portrayed as vastly beneath that tier, especially that early on in the war. She's not even capable of competing with General Grievous, much less Yoda.
Pall wasn't, no, but he has superiority quotes over him, like this:
Eventually, almost two-dozen millennia after Adas' death, a proper successor to Adas seemed to come at last. Known in Republic space as the Exiles, traitorous Jedi defeated in a galactic war called the Hundred-Year Darkness arrived on Korriban and cowed the Sith people with their astounding Force abilities, lightsabers, and superior technology. With the help of the ruling king's Shadow Hand, these Jen'jidai, as the Sith called them, lured the Sith monarch into their confidence and destroyed him. Never anticipating this stunning sequence of events, the Sith people concluded that the dark Jedi were themselves more powerful gods than even the Sith'ari. Bestowing the Exiles with Adas' holocron, the reign of the first Jen'ari, or "Dark Lord" of the Sith began.
Being subjectively regarded by a primitive population as more powerful than someone who died over 20 thousand years ago isn't exactly the most concrete supremacy statement.
Adas scaling is primarily based off of Jinn being affected by Adas' holocron, so Pall being fine against it is an undeniable indication of superiority comparatively.
Alternatively, Pall is a dark sider, unlike Jinn, and therefore does not exude a hostile presence. In anycase, I regard Pall as Sidious tier anyway(and not massively sub-Malak), but all this is irrelevent since Qui-Gon doesn't scale to Dooku in any conceivable fashion.
Some buy the SF Malak quote, I know you don't, but that's another line of scaling (ala Amanoa).
What is this scaling?
Can you prove the inverse? I mean, Revan has greater mastery than Malak (as of pre-KOTOR), yet Malak drives the SF to greater lengths of power. Logically, since Malak > Revan (Darth), it should be based on power. If that doesn't convince you, note that it's not saying Malak is superior to the entire SF, but it's that he's superior by merit of the Exiles' power compared to the Star Map. A Star Map is the source of the Exiles' power per Pall, but it's utterly meaningless to Revan and Malak as of even the Mandalorian War. Ajunta Pall describes Revan (as of Korriban)'s presence in the force as blinding. There's an undeniable intent as well as concrete showings that puts Revan and Malak, at least by the end of KOTOR, are far, far beyond the Jedi Exiles.
I'm going to temporarily drop this point since it's a rabbit trail that doesn't affect my primary argument. However, if your scaling is that Dooku ~ Qui-Gon << Pall <<<<<<<<<<<<< Mandalorian War Malak > Mandalorian War Revan << KOTOR Revan << SF Malak <<<<<<< mind-wiped Revan, who in turn is < Novel Revan who <<<< SOR Revan, at some point you have to realize that either you've made Revan Abeloth tier, or pretty much all the elite prequel characters are bottom-level fodder.
This is one reason why I don't buy into the idea that Malak is much stronger than Kun or Nadd is much stronger than Sadow. When each reigning Dark Lord of the Sith is heralded as all-powerful, but is then vastly eclipsed by the next all-powerful reigning Dark Lord, and so forth, either someone is multiversal or most of these guys are absolute fodder and their accolades are worthless.
True, but the idea is that Jinn's power growth is pretty minimal, as Qui-Gon's superior augmentation via greater force power doesn't offset his physical slowing.
I'll concede to this, but he's still more skilled and powerful than ever.
Equal to AOTC Yoda, who's factually inferior to ROTS Yoda and Sidious.
But still close.
Dooku considers ROTS Sidious "beyond power", yet Sidious is stalemated by Yoda.
Sidious is overpowered by Yoda, and Dooku in the novel isn't near Sidious, unlike in other material. Different writers have different views.
Dooku is close to Yoda as of ROTS, imo, but he'd lose each time, though it'd be a close fight.
I agree here.
He also has a stylistic advantage (he's like 75 inches tall, and is a fencer, Yoda's like 3 feet tall and is jumping all over the place, Dooku has a mega reach advantage too.
Yoda compensates for his lack of reach by specializing in Ataru, which emphasizes full range of motion, throwing the whole body into each attack.
@the_buddha_ said:
@richard96: AOTC Yoda =/= Rots Yoda, though. Aotc Yoda is sub-Ventress, per the latter’s fight against Mace, Yoda’s contemporary (as well as Dooku’s) during AOTC. Consider that TCW Mace is >> AOTC Mace as well.
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