Revan vs Asajj Ventress

Revan deathstomps her into oblivion.

Asajj has better lightsaber feats.

@shroudofsorrow said:

Since he was using two lightsabers that meant he was using J'arki, which Ventress is more or less a master of. So their fighting styles are the same. Ventress has better feats all in all, but its not like Revan couldn't keep up. Against the earlier iteration of Ventress I say she definitely loses.

... no version of Revan, aside from the one in the vision to Meetra, used two lightsabers. Every source shows him with just a single blue, red, purple, or green lightsaber. No duel-wielding.

@shroudofsorrow said:

So using my own personal version of Revan I say he wins, but not easily. Revan without KotOR feats loses badly.

So essentially, you're saying that only the one using non-canon and inadmissible feats can win?

Considering Revan is defeated in canon by a strike team in TOR MMO, is can be beaten but can take a great deal of punishment. Can Asajj defeat Revan? I want to say no.

You see she was able to sneak into "The Cauldron" but might as well have been make all the noise in the world considering how Dooku sensed her so easily. Also, Anakin beat her.

I hate to use A+B=C logic here but with Sith Lords, you kind of have to. Is she a skilled Sith? Yes. Is she fast and stealthy? Yes. Can she kill Jedi? Yes. Can she kill Dooku? No. Can she kill Revan? Not without help.

Note this is just my opinion. Whenever Ventress is able to defeat Mandalor I will put her above Lord Revan in lightsaber skills.If it comes down to it, Revan over powers her with his force powers.

Ventress has better feats, but Revan has the potential, note potential to win here.

Still, Ventress 8/10

@JediXMan said:

... no version of Revan, aside from the one in the vision to Meetra, used two lightsabers. Every source shows him with just a single blue, red, purple, or green lightsaber. No duel-wielding.

We've only seen him use one, but there is no evidence either way to say he never dual-wielded in KotOR. He can, and depending on the player does. Its unclear one way or the other. My version I did, and I was referring to my version. But unless specified in the OP, its meaningless either way.

The one thing worth mentioning is that Drew has explicitly stated that he believes Revan used Lightsaber Form VI (Niman). Considering Drew basically created the character I consider that statement to be valid. Its just unfortunate he's featless regarding lightsaber ability.

So essentially, you're saying that only the one using non-canon and inadmissible feats can win?

I'm just saying it depends on the version is all. My version I say wins. Steelhounds version I say wins as well. But if we completely discount feats in KotOR, he loses badly. The only way around this is to incorporate whatever he may have done in the game. At which point it varies wildly from version to version. This is part of the reason why I caution against using Revan in Vs. Threads, because even after getting his own novel he still doesn't have enough real solid feats to stand up on.

I was simply pointing out that depending on how one played the character he does some impressive things.

And regardless, Revan>Ventress in the Force arena, if only because he can do things with the Force that she cannot. But yes, she has better saber feats either way.

And as it is, I'm not coming back to this thread, so responding to my post will bear no fruit. I'm for-seeing an ugly mess here that I want no part of.

@Spellca: Ventress is not a Sith, and she does beat Revan in a lightsaber duel.

@shroudofsorrow:

I use the term Sith as an umbrella term. This is a comic site, not a Star Wars forum so I don't want to be super specific.

The reason I had Revan beat Ventress is due to the Force and the potential for power depending on different canons. Ventress is one hell of swordswoman but much like Maul; the true mastery of the Dark Side is lost due to their melee rather than their sorcery.

Ventress just about every time. Her skill feats are far superior. She has fought evenly with Plo Koon, stalemated/beaten Obi-Wan more than once, beaten Jai Maruk twice, held her own against Anakin, beaten K'Krukh, etc. Revan has accomplished nothing to compete. Dueling Malak? Malak is a featless swordsman, and it has never been established that Revan killed him through lightsaber proficiency. Defeating Manadalore? How is beating a non-Force sensitive swordsman in any way impressive? Even in Force feats, Ventress is comparable, if not superior. She has collapsed ceilings, caused avalanches, and hurled around trees telekinetically; she has utilized Beast Control, Concealment, and displayed eclipsing Force Speed. And I honestly have no idea why people are referencing Ventress' losses to Dooku or Anakin considering Dooku and Anakin would stomp Revan. 
 
Really, cut the fanwaking already. It's long past time when people should be exaggerating Revan's powers based on N-Canon gameplay.

@shroudofsorrow said:

@JediXMan said:

... no version of Revan, aside from the one in the vision to Meetra, used two lightsabers. Every source shows him with just a single blue, red, purple, or green lightsaber. No duel-wielding.

We've only seen him use one, but there is no evidence either way to say he never dual-wielded in KotOR. He can, and depending on the player does. Its unclear one way or the other. My version I did, and I was referring to my version. But unless specified in the OP, its meaningless either way.

The OP has no actual decision. They "powers that be" have already chosen what is canon and what is not. There is now non-canon Revan (what you decide) and canon Revan (as has been shown in novels, comics, SWTOR, and source books)

And the fact that we've only seen him use one proves that he only uses one.

He used one during the Mandalorian Wars:

Gallery

We know he used one as a Sith Lord:

Gallery

We know he used one after he was redeemed:

Gallery

And we know he used one when he fought the Sith Emperor.

So, prey tell: when did he take up his duel-wielding hobby?

And just to hammer the point home regarding the difference between non-canon and canon: this is what Revan is confirmed to look like under the mask:

So you can kinda say goodbye to the whole "roleplay" aspect of the game. His gender, hair color/style, skin tone, Force alignment, and overall abilities have been decided. Same goes for Meetra Surik (the real name of the "Jedi Exile").

@Silver2467:

I'll admit I was downplaying Asajj because I was literally forgetting feats. Hmmm...her kill count is incredibly high.

@JediXMan:

I try not to lower myself to this, but...

I know the difference between canon and non-canon and know that Revan's physical appearance and alignment have a confirmed canon. But not every single thing he did in the game is 100% covered, at least not concerning how he carried himself combat-wise. There is no exact specification for how he conquered the challenges presented before him, only that he was Light Side. But nothing on how he handled things in terms of combat. For all we know he did dual-wield at some point in his life. The usage of one lightsaber at other points does not mean he NEVER dual-wielded. Anakin, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, and Kit Fisto all used two lightsabers at some point even though they mostly used one lightsaber. In fact, his overall abilities have NOT been decided. Not entirely. Just his alignment, gender, and appearance, and the former two were decided before the novel came out.

But in any event there is absolutely no point in arguing this as we could go around in circles all day. So this will be my last word on the matter. I will not be returning to this thread.

@shroudofsorrow:

Show me when he did, and I'll concede. All I'm asking. Stop speculating. I gave you proof. Two of those images take place during the game: One image shows him fighting Sith Troopers during the game, and the other image shows him after beating Malak... during the game. So again, I ask: during all of his most significant events, when did he duel wield? I'll wait.

And here's the funny thing about those other characters who have used two lightsabers: there is evidence, not shallow assumptions based on... well nothing.

Look, the bottom line is this: your personal experiences during the game mean absolutely nothing. It's just fan fiction if you go beyond hard canon at this point.

Also, do not use such juvenile images in a futile attempt to undermine my argument again.

@Silver2467:

I'll admit I was downplaying Asajj because I was literally forgetting feats. Hmmm...her kill count is incredibly high.

@Silver2467 said:

That said, I consider XMan the reigning Revan expert on CV; so if he has any corrections to throw my way, maybe Revan could present more of a challenge to Ventress than I initially said, though I doubt he would suggest Revan would win a majority.

Ego... swelling :P

No way Revan is winning against Ventress. The only thing feats to suggest he's stronger in the Force is:

Force deflection - again, redirected Force Lightning that fried Meetra.

Casually tossing aside two heavy doors. Emphasis on casual, which is why I put so much stock in his ability with telekinesis. He just did it with a gesture. I'd say he might be equal to Asajj, but it's hard to say.

But yeah. Asajj will want to close the distance, and she would shred him into tiny pieces. At the very least.. 8/9 - 10 for Asajj. I'm being generous.

I need to replay KOTOR but I have played SWTOR. While it is a pretty weak to be used as a feat overall, SWTOR sets it up that a squad of four engages Revan in order to achieve a level of skill in which they "defeat" him following he was in stasis for who-knows how low exactly. Comparing that to what the character does in KOTOR in terms of who he defeats, what he does and the amount of bodies he leaves in his wake - Revan deserves some of the respect he receives.

Ranking up there in terms of Anakin/Vader's body count.

Asajj is a skilled duelist, Jedi killer, gladiator and overall warrior. She is well equipped with lightsabers, the Force and even star-like throwing weapons. But it comes down to this, in a one on one match-up, can she put down Revan alone?

@Silver2467:

Well that's the thing, as you said. It's a very, very low end feat, evident by the ease with which he accomplished it. We haven't really seen his high-end feats. Only thing I can remember is him bringing down small meteors during a duel (one could call it gameplay, but I don't. It has nothing to do with the player)

@JediXMan: @Silver2467:

I am just going to watch you two go at it for a while. As a Star Wars fan, I want to see this resolved and you two seem to be the ones to do it without me butting in. I'll observe. Carry on.

This seems to have turned into an arguement for whether dual wielding is better than not dual wielding. o:

@Silver2467:

Actually, after being defeated, Revan essentially becomes neutral. He mentions revenge on the Emperor but also no love for the Jedi either. If I recall...

@Silver2467:

Revan never fell again. Meetra watched over him while he was in stasis. Three hundred-years later, he is released by 4 Republic soldiers (largely assumed and accepted to be the 4 Republic classes). Later, he and HK-47 take control of "the Foundry" - a facility that was built into an asteroid and, if memory serves, was also built by the Rakata. He wanted to create an army of droids, led by HK-47, to hunt down and kill everybody with Sith DNA in order to wipe out the existence of Vitiate's Sith Empire.

One could call his methods harsh, but he was like that before meeting Vitiate.

After that, he was attacked by 4 Sith soldiers (again, assumed to be the 4 Sith classes). During the fight, he would yank down small meteors and used a type of "Oneness" ability (wasn't called that; "Balanced Force" or "Force in Balance" or something like that. I don't remember what it did; maybe that was what called down the meteors? Been awhile). His body vanishes with about 7k health left, where he vanished into a ball of light. Some speculate that he used Fold Space.

@Sarpio__ said:

This seems to have turned into an arguement for whether dual wielding is better than not dual wielding. o:

No. It's about whether gameplay is canon or not. It has nothing to do with whether duel wielding is "better" than non-duel wielding. It's just an example.

@JediXMan: Just a question have you read the Revan book by Drew Karpyshyn and if you have is it good.

I just don't think it should be a factor, especially not a negative one. It doesn't matter who uses however many lightsabers - it seems to me an arbitrary example. I would compare more unique factors that seperate these characters from everyone else. For example, doesn't Revan have some sort of future sense? Can he not use the light-side to heal his own wounds? etc.

@*Void* said:

@JediXMan: Just a question have you read the Revan book by Drew Karpyshyn and if you have is it good.

I've read it, and I greatly dislike the book - but, then, I dislike a large amount of the material surrounding SWTOR. Wasted potential. But I would recommend it, if only so you can be informed on Revan. If you like Revan, it'll feed or wound the fanboy in me.

@Silver2467 said:

@Spellca: @JediXMan: That seems rather inconsistent from his previous display of struggling to fight a single one of Vitiate's guards. However, since the fight is gameplay, the precise circumstances of it are unknown, barring its genesis (whatever series of circumstances prompted the soldiers to fight Revan, and no, you don't have to detail it for me) and its conclusion (Revan disappearing; and LOL @ Fold Space). The meteor effect, you could call it canon, but it still does nothing to surpass Ventress.

I appreciate the info though. My consensus remains mostly unchanged, however. The only respectable combative feats Revan has apparently performed lack canonical information on their proceedings, and even then, I would question whether they really exceed Ventress' or not. In Schism, Ventress fought three Jedi with a smile on her face before convincing one to betray the other two.

I'm not saying it surpasses Ventress; just throwing it out there.

I wouldn't mind Fold Space if it were accurately and intelligently explained. It wouldn't be out of the realm possibility. Having said that... yeah, that's not how it will or would happen if it's confirmed. It'll be akin to... well, Revan using "Oneness" when he fought Vitiate (... ugh...).

Agreed.

@Sarpio__ said:

I just don't think it should be a factor, especially not a negative one. It doesn't matter who uses however many lightsabers - it seems to me an arbitrary example. I would compare more unique factors that seperate these characters from everyone else. For example, doesn't Revan have some sort of future sense? Can he not use the light-side to heal his own wounds? etc.

That's not the point. The point was that gameplay isn't canon. Any feats he used in the game are not canon. The duel wielding thing was just a point I was using to show that it's not.

Also, all Jedi / Sith have precog.

All Jedi/Sith? Since when? o_o'

@JediXMan: thanks im going to buy it just for informational purposes.

I think the main problem with Revan is that we have never been shown anything that shows definite example of his powers and what he can do. Feat wise Ven beats him. (The Fanboy in me just died).

Ventress takes him in lightsaber combat. She has proven to be difficult for both Obi Wan and Anakin to best with a saber. Revan displayed fairly average feats of lightsaber proficiency, around what would be expected of an average Jedi Master.

If we include feats from other novels (including the knowledge Bane uncovered on Lehon from Revan's Holocron), his knowledge of the Force is decently impressive, with knowledge of the Thought Bomb and other Sith rituals. He certainly has superior defensive Force ability than Ventress, but lacks many notable offensive abilities in the canon continuity. What we do know of Revan....

He bested Mandalore the Ultimate? in melee combat. Something Malak couldn't do at the time.

He severly injured Darth Malak (severing his lower jaw) in a lightsaber duel, sometime before KOTOR took place.

The canon continuity has him and Bastila defeating Malak together in their final confrontation, although the game has you face Malak alone.

Mastering the initial Jedi training extremely quickly after being mind wiped by the Council.

Possessing enough defensive capacity to redirect a Dark Council member's Force storm back upon her, incinerating her

Briefly contesting with Vitate before being owned by Sith Lightning.

Having enough willpower to contest with Vitate's crushing mental influence the second time around.

Was generally regarded as one of the greater Jedi Masters of his time.

Lightsaber Duel: Ventress 8/10. She wrecks him based on feats alone

Force Battle: I'm leaning Revan 6-7/10 on this one. This decision is based purely on anecdotal evidence gathered through reading several SW novels where he is mentioned. His defensive capacity would be able to protect him from Ventress' Force Abilities, and he likely has enough knowledge of the Force due to his tutelage in both Jedi and Sith philosophies of the Force to deal enough damage to pull him through.

All Out Fight: Ventress 7/10. Her saber proficiency and Force ability together are enough to take Revan down.

Just my .02

I don't really want to bump this but I just feel like it, LOL.

@*Void* said:

Revan deathstomps her into oblivion.

I really don't see how this is even remotely possible. Ventress stomps in a saber fight with ridiculous ease. Consistently giving trouble to Jedi of high calibre including Obi-Wan and Anakin is far superior than having a short contention with non-Force sensitives.

Force-wise, it's a bit more debatable.

@shroudofsorrow said:

We've only seen him use one, but there is no evidence either way to say he never dual-wielded in KotOR. He can, and depending on the player does. Its unclear one way or the other. My version I did, and I was referring to my version. But unless specified in the OP, its meaningless either way.

Umm... please tell me when this even occurred. Your version isn't canon, out of all the times we've seen Revan in canonical images, he has always used a single saber. In the Revan novel, he used a single saber, and there was no mention of actual dual-wielding. Please don't speculate.

@JediXMan said:

Force deflection - again, redirected Force Lightning that fried Meetra.

Fried Meetra? What?

Casually tossing aside two heavy doors. Emphasis on casual, which is why I put so much stock in his ability with telekinesis. He just did it with a gesture. I'd say he might be equal to Asajj, but it's hard to say.

Not really a gesture. Well, it was the thing closest to a gesture, just a little worse. He just threw his hand up and blasted the durasteel doors open. Granted how non-Force-sensitive people (yes, I know they were part of the Imperial Guard) were able to simply push the doors in, though, this might not really be that impressive.

But yeah. Asajj will want to close the distance, and she would shred him into tiny pieces. At the very least.. 8/9 - 10 for Asajj. I'm being generous.

Something like that.

@Spellca said:

"defeat" him following he was in stasis for who-knows how low exactly. Comparing that to what the character does in KOTOR in terms of who he defeats, what he does and the amount of bodies he leaves in his wake - Revan deserves some of the respect he receives.

You don't need to put "defeat" in quotes, because it was exactly a defeat, and none of those beings were in their prime. Obviously, Revan wasn't also, he had (nearly) gone insane by that time.

Asajj is a skilled duelist, Jedi killer, gladiator and overall warrior. She is well equipped with lightsabers, the Force and even star-like throwing weapons. But it comes down to this, in a one on one match-up, can she put down Revan alone?

Saber-wise, she stomps. Force-wise, it's more debatable but the only thing really showing for Revan is much superior Force deflection/absorption (in other words, Tutaminis).

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan said:

Force deflection - again, redirected Force Lightning that fried Meetra.

Fried Meetra? What?

Poor choice of words on my part. Incapacitated is more like it.

@Silver2467 said:

@JediXMan: Wasn't Revan in TOR influenced by Vitiate somehow? I know Vitiate maintained him stasis for centuries to siphon his life energy and probe his memories, but Revan surviving that long and then succumbing to the Sith denotes an external manipulation, doesn't it?

Yeah, he was on the verge of insanity, if not totally insane. He had basically attempted to simply destroy the Sith flat out, with no regards for mercy, which is absolutely not how a Jedi acts.

There's also this:

It was during this peace that a Republic strike team finally rescued Revan, but years spent in the Emperor's presence had shaken the Jedi's mind.

-- Taken from The Old Republic Encyclopedia

After sacrificing sanity and years of his life to safeguard the Republic from the Emperor, Revan once again fell prey to the tragic flaw that previously drove him to spark the Jedi Civil War.

-- Taken from The Old Republic Encyclopedia

@ShootingNova:

See, now, that pisses me off. I always thought that Meetra was able to keep Revan sane - the sole reason she stayed with him all those years.

I hate SWTOR...

@JediXMan said:

Poor choice of words on my part. Incapacitated is more like it.

Well, it was not really incapacitation either, she just got thrown head over heels and got sent flying, if I recall correctly. Of course, as usual, Karpyshynn messed up the power levels in regards to the Revan novel, once again, so yeah......

@JediXMan: Not really. It was meant to revitalize his energies so he wouldn't just... fail instantaneously in his mission to stop the Emperor. It was only because of Meetra's help that Revan seeded those thoughts of doubt.

You can mainly blame it on them wanking and pushing Vitiate too far, they had to make something suitable. But then again, Revan never really had the best willpower either.... of course, I'm not saying it's weak or anything, just... not that great......

I hate SWTOR...

Similar, but for me, it's probably 7-8/10. The only thing that's holding it for me is that it is set in the Old Republic era, which is my favourite era.

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan said:

Poor choice of words on my part. Incapacitated is more like it.

Well, it was not really incapacitation either, she just got thrown head over heels and got sent flying, if I recall correctly. Of course, as usual, Karpyshynn messed up the power levels in regards to the Revan novel, once again, so yeah......

She was sent flying and, for that moment, unable to really do anything.

It annoyed me. Meetra should be more powerful than Revan. It is implied and outright said by Kreia that she was. This is how it should be:

Meetra = powerful, fast, strong, charismatic.

Revan = intelligent, wise, great strategist, charismatic.

They compared Meetra and Revan to their shared ability to inspire loyalty in others. But for Revan to be powerful and that smart... eh. Makes him less interesting.

@JediXMan: Exactly. Meetra was far less of a rip-off than Revan, she was so much more unique and the story in KotOR II was much more... poetic, and suited me much more. I didn't mind them talking in riddles. In fact, if anything, I endorsed it. And....... we have Karpyshynn and his insufferable, infinite Revan fanboyism and fanwank that rips apart the novel. If it was written by Sean Williams or some other, less biased writer, it would have much more potential. Plus, I believe (just what I heard on the TOR forums, so screw it if you don't believe it) that Karpyshynn himself admitted to not doing a lot of research on Meetra and KotOR II, in general. Well, it's also Bioware/Lucasarts's fault for KotOR II's lack of completion.

Also.... I can't believe how Carth didn't even get a spot in the novel.

@ShootingNova:

I wouldn't call Revan a ripoff character, but I agree. KOTOR II overall had more depth. The characters were all unique, the concepts of the Force were interesting, and the plot itself was darker and deeper.

Agreed. It pissed me off that Carth wasn't even mentioned. Mission and Zaalbar get a mention, but Carth doesn't?! He's one of the most loyal companions to Revan!

@JediXMan said:

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan said:

Poor choice of words on my part. Incapacitated is more like it.

Well, it was not really incapacitation either, she just got thrown head over heels and got sent flying, if I recall correctly. Of course, as usual, Karpyshynn messed up the power levels in regards to the Revan novel, once again, so yeah......

She was sent flying and, for that moment, unable to really do anything.

It annoyed me. Meetra should be more powerful than Revan. It is implied and outright said by Kreia that she was. This is how it should be:

Meetra = powerful, fast, strong, charismatic.

Revan = intelligent, wise, great strategist, charismatic.

They compared Meetra and Revan to their shared ability to inspire loyalty in others. But for Revan to be powerful and that smart... eh. Makes him less interesting.

i would respectfully disagree, didnt kreia refer to Revan as his power like staring into the heart of the force? i was under the impression that her potential was dependant on the people around her. Im not saying she wasnt powerful but kreia didnt seem to hold her to the caliber she held revan. revan was the mister terriffic of jedi... he was just good at anything he tried. Kind of like if Anakin would have been born a few thousand years ago (but he messed that up when he got all emotional and became vader).

On a side note Im very interested to hear what you think about Revan as a whole... but im syre you explained that many times on this site lol

@ShootingNova said:

@JediXMan: Exactly. Meetra was far less of a rip-off than Revan, she was so much more unique and the story in KotOR II was much more... poetic, and suited me much more. I didn't mind them talking in riddles. In fact, if anything, I endorsed it. And....... we have Karpyshynn and his insufferable, infinite Revan fanboyism and fanwank that rips apart the novel. If it was written by Sean Williams or some other, less biased writer, it would have much more potential. Plus, I believe (just what I heard on the TOR forums, so screw it if you don't believe it) that Karpyshynn himself admitted to not doing a lot of research on Meetra and KotOR II, in general. Well, it's also Bioware/Lucasarts's fault for KotOR II's lack of completion.

Also.... I can't believe how Carth didn't even get a spot in the novel.

yeah that was garbade what they did to Carth, but have to read more of it

@Hyperlight said:

i would respectfully disagree, didnt kreia refer to Revan as his power like staring into the heart of the force?

Kreia said that Meetra surpassed Revan after she beat Kreia.

@JediXMan: really ... dang. I remeber them talking and kreia spoke very highly of revan and said she was powerful but didnt have anything on revan (paraphrasing of course)

@Hyperlight said:

@JediXMan: really ... dang. I remeber them talking and kreia spoke very highly of revan and said she was powerful but didnt have anything on revan (paraphrasing of course)

0:10. She says that Meetra is greater than any student she has ever trained. Kreia was one of Revan's masters.

@JediXMan: ah damn... alright. why did they make her so wack in the novel? she should have been better then

@Hyperlight: Honestly, that was a statement on a massively hyperbolic scale. Besides, I would place "the Death of the Force" (hyperbole too) over "the Heart of the Force".

@JediXMan: "You are greater than any I have ever trained." That doesn't necessarily mean "the most powerful I have ever trained". Also, that was in her point of view, but honestly, I would agree with her.

As for Carth, Carth was much better a character than either Mission or Zaalbar.

@Hyperlight: They did nothing about Carth, that's the garbage you are talking about.