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#1 Posted by nfactor1995 (12879 posts) - - Show Bio
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Revan (Shadow of Revan) engages Mace Windu (ROTS) in a series of fights to the death. They all take place on Yavin IV and both are fighting all out in each round. Canon and legends feats are applicable.

  1. Lightsabers only
  2. Force only
  3. All out fight

Who wins each round and why?

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#2 Edited by decaf_wizard (16941 posts) - - Show Bio

R1: Mace has the edge IMO

R2: Revan crumples Mace into a ball and throws him in the trash

R3: Revan stomps

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#3 Posted by razminr11 (27 posts) - - Show Bio

R1: Mace has the edge IMO

R2: Revan crumples Mace into a ball and throws him in the trash

R3: Revan stomps

Agreed, and IMO, the only reason Mace has the edge in sabers is because SoR Revan was canonically darkside, which gives Windu (w/ Vapaad) a rather massive advantage.

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#5 Posted by darthbane77 (2113 posts) - - Show Bio

1. Pretty equal, slight edge to Windu probably.

2. Revan stomps

3. Revan stomps harder

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#6 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16523 posts) - - Show Bio
  1. Mace Windu. He's just a more skilled fighter.
  2. Revan would reduce him to a blood stain on the floor.
  3. Similar as R2, but with greater grief.
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#7 Edited by StarWarsHoloNet (71 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean, Dark Revan is pure dark side energy is he not? Seems it would be pretty easy to power mace.

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#8 Posted by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean, Dark Revan is pure dark side energy is he not? Seems it would be pretty easy to power mace.

His body is held together almost entirely by his will and Force power, though the same can be said about Darth Sion and the like, who isn't Mace Windu level. This trait gives Revan virtually unparalleled pain tolerance and durability given he can technically withstand anything short of something that is breaking his will all together, and given that some of the greatest dark side sorcerers in history failed to break Revan's will over three-hundred years of mental torture, he's "immortal" in that sense. For example, even following being hit by a blast that threatened to impact all life in a one kilometer radius, having portions of his Force essence violently stripped from him by an ancient Sith device, and being ultimately defeated two times over by two different times, Revan continued to stand and was ready to fight again. It's pretty crazy, actually.

Anyway, based on his showings against the various strike teams he's been up against and Vitiate, I agree he's going to relatively easy overpower Mace Windu, who isn't on his level with the Force.

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#9 Posted by StarWarsHoloNet (71 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66: I'd give dueling to Mace. Are we in agreement that Revans spirit is the only thing that stopped the player character from also being encased by force containment?

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#10 Posted by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66: Are we in agreement that Revans spirit is the only thing that stopped the player character from also being encased by force containment?

I've never seen any other argument brought forward for well over a year now, and given that Spirit Revan specifically helped the team in the other strike team fight (telekinetically moving structures and what not), along with the fact the descriptions of the powers utilized to defend the player character suggest a faint presence (i.e. "echoes" of light side and dark side energy), I say it's virtually set in stone at this point, yeah.

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#11 Posted by noobsnowman (3625 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace Windu wins if its lightsabers only, but Revan wins solidly in the other rounds.

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#12 Edited by FFP (436 posts) - - Show Bio

R1: It would be hard, but Windu could win.

R2: Revan wins easily

R3: Revan wins easily

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#13 Posted by DarkDefender (4074 posts) - - Show Bio

  1. Mace Windu. He's just a more skilled fighter.
  2. Revan would reduce him to a blood stain on the floor.
  3. Similar as R2, but with greater grief.

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#14 Posted by deactivated-59c0eef934dfe (918 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump!

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#15 Posted by slayne (521 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace gets utterly destroyed in the Force before he has the chance to turn it into a sabers match

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#16 Posted by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace might take sabers, but he gets crushed in the other two rounds.

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#17 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6190 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace takes sabers.

The rest depends on how much more powerful SOR Revan is than Reborn Revan

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#18 Posted by Slayedigneel (1920 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace wins in saber combat, loses the other two rounds.

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#19 Posted by SithRevenant (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

Mace might edge Revan in sabers but gets stomped in anything else.

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#20 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure why people are exaggerating Revan's edge in the Force. I'm not seeing where it's a stomp.

Mace takes sabers, Revan takes Force, and all-out depends on their approach to the fight and the starting distance. I'd probably back Revan for a majority but it's not a steamroll.

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#21 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2678 posts) - - Show Bio

No way is it a stomp in anything.

What Nova said.

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#22 Posted by DarthAnt66 (2560 posts) - - Show Bio

Not sure why people are exaggerating Revan's edge in the Force. I'm not seeing where it's a stomp.

Mace takes sabers, Revan takes Force, and all-out depends on their approach to the fight and the starting distance. I'd probably back Revan for a majority but it's not a steamroll.

How is starting distance relevant when Revan can teleport, rofl.

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#23 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@darthant66: Because if it starts close, then Mace can quickly make it a blade contest and keep Revan from getting the concentration to teleport.

I'm also not convinced that with morals on, Revan would opt to teleport from the onset of the fight against an opponent whose capabilities he's unaware of.

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#24 Edited by Erkan12 (8391 posts) - - Show Bio

Am I seeing wrong or people actually underestimating Mace's Force powers ?

Mace was able to shake the ground with the Force over a group of battle droids which includes Droidekas (easily a Vader level feat)

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Ragdolled two Clone Troopers to almost 1000 meters,

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Pushed an AT-TA , and all of them happened in the new canon, which is more realistic than the game video feats.

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As for his Force defenses , it was strong enough to hold Sidious' Force lightning at bay which is far more powerful than Revan's.

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Mace isn't going to fall to Revan's Force advantage easily, and Mace is much more powerful than Revan in sabers. Plain and simple, Mace wins.

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#25 Edited by slayne (521 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Ragdolling fodder is quite honestly miles inferior to roflstomping Nyriss on a DS nexus after being drugged for 3 years, lol. The AT-AT feat is certainly impressive but it's something that Revan could easily replicate; his showings in the ToS and Forgotten Terrace speak for themselves. As for the Sidious showing, Mace was amped to high heaven by Vaapad and Sidious was throwing the fight in order to turn Anakin.

Revan's perfectly capable of contending with Mace in sabers and has an astronomical advantage in the Force. He can also easily teleport in the midst of combat with Mace as shown multiple times with the strike team in the ToS.

He would win every time and it wouldn't be much of a contest.

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#26 Edited by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: I'm glad Mace has TK like every other Force user to ever exist.

So how is he above Revan again?

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#27 Edited by Erkan12 (8391 posts) - - Show Bio

@necromancer76 said:

@erkan12: I'm glad Mace has TK like every other Force user to ever exist.

So how is he above Revan again?

So every Force user can push an AT-TA tank and shake the ground with the Force now ? Alright.

@slayne said:

@erkan12: Ragdolling fodder is quite honestly miles inferior to roflstomping Nyriss on a DS nexus after being drugged for 3 years, lol. The AT-AT feat is certainly impressive but it's something that Revan could easily replicate; his showings in the ToS and Forgotten Terrace speak for themselves. As for the Sidious showing, Mace was amped to high heaven by Vaapad and Sidious was throwing the fight in order to turn Anakin.

Revan's perfectly capable of contending with Mace in sabers and has an astronomical advantage in the Force. He can also easily teleport in the midst of combat with Mace as shown multiple times with the strike team in the ToS.

He would win every time and it wouldn't be much of a contest.

And when did I say Mace is equal to him in the Force ? I said he isn't a fodder that he can ragdoll and he isn't going to lose to him easily in a Force contest, he can surely hold his ground and draw him into a lightsaber combat, which means a decisive victory for Mace Windu.

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#28 Posted by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

The RotS novel and script would suggest that even without Vaapad, Mace possesses some degree of favourable comparison to Sidious with respect to power.

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#29 Posted by Greysentinel365 (6190 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: You can make pretty flat comparison on those grounds. A prepared Reborn Revan was brought to his knees and horribly burned by Vitiate's lightning.

A recently turned amputee Mace was able to partially nullify Sidious' lightning to the point where it was the fall that killed him and he wasn't incinerated.

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#30 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@greysentinel365: Most sources depict the Lightning as killing him, IIRC. I can't remember what the script says but the film suggests it was the Lightning as well. But otherwise the comparison itself works fine.

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#31 Posted by Necromancer76 (3776 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Ok cool. Revan can collapse buildings and hurl meteors.

And Revan isn't stupid enough to stay in a duel with Windu if he knows Windu is a better duelist.

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#32 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio
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#33 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Windu solidly.

Round 2: Revan stomps.

Round 3: Uhh... Revan slightly due to Force.

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#34 Posted by slayne (521 posts) - - Show Bio

@erkan12: Revan would destroy Mace in a Force contest; the Jedi Master has done nothing to suggest that he can compete in the Force with someone of Revan's level. Pulling Revan into lightsaber combat isn't a 'decisive victory' for Mace as Revan's perfectly capable of contending with Windu via precognition and can simply teleport out of range.

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#35 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@azronger said:

Where in novel does it suggest that?

Mace manages to redirect himself with a Push when Palpatine hits him with the same attack; IIRC, it's noted as snapping Mace out of Vaapad, so he's not amped.

It's down to whether you reckon Sidious was genuinely employing TK with all-out intent, and whether you think Mace was simply circumventing his body's momentum or Palpatine's actual telekinesis.

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#36 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

For the record, Mace is said to be capable of competing with the Emperor by Lucas, and there was no context limiting that claim to a lightsaber duel, to my knowledge. If Mace can compete with Sidious, someone who heavily outstrips Revan in sabers, Force, and all-out, it's hard to see Revan demolishing Mace or winning in anything other than a grueling battle. Certainly if Sidious can't keep Mace from competing with him by just stomping him with the Force, then I'm hard-pressed to imagine Revan doing that.

Also, SoR Revan would just be Revan's dark half, no? Mace's Vaapad could carry some distinct advantages in a fight against someone like him.

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#37 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16523 posts) - - Show Bio

For the record, Mace is said to be capable of competing with the Emperor by Lucas, and there was no context limiting that claim to a lightsaber duel, to my knowledge. Mace can compete with Sidious,

Certainly if Sidious can't keep Mace from competing with him by just stomping him with the Force, then I'm hard-pressed to imagine Revan doing that.

I always took it as meaning Mace can compete due to Vaapad. As a Force user, Mace really isn't up to stack with the likes of Yoda or Sidious; he's more Dooku-tier.

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#38 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209: The thing is that Lucas' comments have to be able to apply within the context of the films alone (ie. in the current Canon timeframe, where Vaapad doesn't have the same properties), which dismisses the idea that Mace's ability to contend with the Emperor is solely attributable to Vaapad.

No doubt that Palpatine is considerably more powerful, but he's not so much stronger than he can just end a fight with a Force power or two. And if he can't do that, then on his best day, Revan couldn't even dream of it. That's the impression I'm getting from some of the posts here.

EDIT: Heck, the OP mentions that Canon + Legends is applicable, and in Canon Mace is irrefutably able to compete with Sidious without amplifications, for the reasons I listed above.

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#39 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16523 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: The thing is that Lucas' comments have to be able to apply within the context of the films alone (ie. in the current Canon timeframe, where Vaapad doesn't have the same properties), which dismisses the idea that Mace's ability to contend with the Emperor is solely attributable to Vaapad.

Yeah, within canon-only, where Sidious is still canonically both Mace's superior and Yoda's superior, and Yoda himself is greater than Windu. It's fairly obvious that even in canon Palpatine is ahead of Windu.

No doubt that Palpatine is considerably more powerful, but he's not so much stronger than he can just end a fight with a Force power or two. And if he can't do that, then on his best day, Revan couldn't even dream of it. That's the impression I'm getting from some of the posts here.

If he can choke Mace-tier Force users from across the galaxy, one-shot the likes of Darth Maul, and pull off sh!t that is vastly out of Mace's paygrade, then Sidious can certainly end Mace with a Force power or two.

EDIT: Heck, the OP mentions that Canon + Legends is applicable, and in Canon Mace is irrefutably able to compete with Sidious without amplifications, for the reasons I listed above.

So we're going to just take it as Canon Mace, but ignore the fact that Legends has an openly detailed reason as to why Mace is capable of competing with Sidious? Regardless, Mace is capable of contending with "canon Sidious" in Canon, not EU Sidious.

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#40 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209:

1. Nowhere did I say anything to the contrary. I even noted earlier that Palpatine is considerably more powerful than Mace. The fact remains that Windu can compete with him. You seem to be in agreement with that as far as sabers goes, at least.

2. The only problem is that by RotS, nothing really binds Mace to Dooku-level anymore. The Clone Wars was a period of significant growth for many, and Mace certainly underwent significant ordeals in that time (Shatterpoint is a premier example). Add to that that he's much younger than Dooku, and you can certainly see him being more powerful than the Count by RotS — a notion cemented by Lucas' claim.

Also, I'm beginning to contemplate whether Palpatine choking Dooku across the galaxy is as overwhelming as it's made out to be. A great feat, to be sure, but how different would it be from choking Dooku in person for the Chancellor? Sidious is clearly well beyond the point where you can choke somebody over vast distances as if they were there in person; his telekinetic powers are basically limited only by his visualisation, it seems.

3. Fair point on only contending with Canon Sidious. Very fair. As for Legends' detailed reasoning; hardly, it manifests in one source alone, and Lucas himself suggests that Mace can compete with Palpatine outside of that reason. If you blend the two together, you'll find common ground between Legends and Canon — and you'll also find that the overall depiction leans in favour of Mace being able to compete with the Emperor 'cuz he's just that good, not because he needs specific conditions.

EDIT: Not to mention that even if you did believe it was solely due to Vaapad's properties, one could easily argue that Vaapad could replicate those advantages here, where Mace is fighting a solely dark-sided character. Indeed, should Revan prove more powerful than Mace, it's quite possible, if not likely, that Mace could just match or reflect that greater power with Vaapad.

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#41 Posted by noobsnowman (3625 posts) - - Show Bio

Revan wins convincingly due to his superior force advantage.

That is if he is smart enough to not keep it to a strict lightsaber duel, because in that case he loses.

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#42 Edited by WollfMyth209 (16523 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Nowhere did I say anything to the contrary. I even noted earlier that Palpatine is considerably more powerful than Mace. The fact remains that Windu can compete with him.

I simply question to what degree he can compete, however.

The only problem is that by RotS, nothing really binds Mace to Dooku-level anymore. The Clone Wars was a period of significant growth for many, and Mace certainly underwent significant ordeals in that time (Shatterpoint is a premier example). Add to that that he's much younger than Dooku, and you can certainly see him being more powerful than the Count by RotS — a notion cemented by Lucas' claim.

The problem is Dooku is already equally/more powerful than Mace just a few months prior to RotS, according to Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. I don't think a few months, where nothing special happened would cement him as ahead of the Count in any way.

Besides, Dooku has a more well-documented growth, that goes beyond just an emotional conquering of one's fears. He's being taught by the most powerful and knowledgable Dark Sider in history, uncovering and reading through holocrons of the Ancient Sith to the point that spells that Sorzus considers complex are "lesser arts to him", his vast power-growth is from the course of 13 years, whereas Mace's true power-growth really starts kicking in during the Clone Wars, which is less than 3 full years.

There's also a quote saying out of Yoda's students, Mace's rise through the ranks of the Jedi was almost unprecedented. I can only think of one other of Yoda's students that might've grown through the ranks as fast as Windu(i.e. Dooku), which to me implies the two are fairly close with regards to potential, something further backed up by the fact that there's several quotes placing Tyranus' potential within Yoda's range.

Also, I'm beginning to contemplate whether Palpatine choking Dooku across the galaxy is as overwhelming as it's made out to be. A great feat, to be sure, but how different would it be from choking Dooku in person for the Chancellor? Sidious is clearly well beyond the point where you can choke somebody over vast distances as if they were there in person; his telekinetic powers are basically limited only by his visualisation, it seems.

Fair enough, though the point is he can still choke Mace-tier characters.

Fair point on only contending with Canon Sidious. Very fair. As for Legends' detailed reasoning; hardly, it manifests in one source alone, and Lucas himself suggests that Mace can compete with Palpatine outside of that reason. If you blend the two together, you'll find common ground between Legends and Canon — and you'll also find that the overall depiction leans in favour of Mace being able to compete with the Emperor 'cuz he's just that good, not because he needs specific conditions.

But to what degree? Legends paints it as there being a pretty vast disparity, whereas Canon still has a disparity there but just much less noticeable. If you blend the two together, Mace is still going to be a full tier or so below Sidious.

Not to mention that even if you did believe it was solely due to Vaapad's properties, one could easily argue that Vaapad could replicate those advantages here, where Mace is fighting a solely dark-sided character. Indeed, should Revan prove more powerful than Mace, it's quite possible that Mace could just match or reflect that greater power with Vaapad.

Oh, I'm not arguing Mace vs Revan, just the gap that exists between Sheev and Windu.

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#43 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio

@wollfmyth209:

I simply question to what degree he can compete, however.

Ambiguous, to be sure, but if he can compete at all, that means that Sidious can't stomp him with the Force. And therefore Revan can't. That's really all I said in that earlier post of mine.

Although I'm actually now contemplating whether that means Mace is more powerful than Revan, since I do believe Revan would be stomped by Palpatine in the Force. Not to mention 32 BBY Mace alone is factually more powerful than novel Revan, and whilst SoR Revan is much stronger than Revan Reborn, we have reason to believe that Mace also grew immensely in the 13 years up to his death.

The problem is Dooku is already equally/more powerful than Mace just a few months prior to RotS, according to Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. I don't think a few months, where nothing special happened would cement him as ahead of the Count in any way.

Just where does Dark Rendezvous establish that Dooku is at least as powerful as Mace by then? It's also plausible to argue that Mace had a big boost in the middle of RotS as well, an argument that I'll make below.

Besides, Dooku has a more well-documented growth, that goes beyond just an emotional conquering of one's fears. He's being taught by the most powerful and knowledgable Dark Sider in history, uncovering and reading through holocrons of the Ancient Sith to the point that spells that Sorzus considers complex are "lesser arts to him", his vast power-growth is from the course of 13 years, whereas Mace's true power-growth really starts kicking in during the Clone Wars, which is less than 3 full years.

Well, Mace being a near-equal of Dooku's by TPM alone would suggest much greater potential. Whilst this is in no way indicated by evidence (pretty much due to lack of exposure of Mace and Dooku's younger selves), how I see it is that Dooku has been second only to Yoda as a Jedi for quite some time. Mace, being of greater potential, starts from infinitely behind Dooku but grows immensely, and by TPM, begins to rival Dooku in spite of the fact that he's 30 years younger. At that point, Dooku leaves the Order and joins the Sith, becoming more powerful in his own right over the next 13 years. However, Mace, being of much greater potential, grows even more, especially with the aid of a couple of extremely significant events. By RotS, he's now passed Dooku's tier.

Also, Mace's experience in Shatterpoint is not to be taken lightly. The Force grows within you through physical and mental confrontation, of which Mace had plenty from TPM to RotS. Certainly more physical confrontation than Dooku, and with respect to mental confrontation, his experiences in Shatterpoint and Revenge of the Sith are well beyond Dooku embracing the teachings of the Sith to me.

As we're still on the topic of Legends, I'd like to remind you that the RotS novel notes that Mace was absolutely devastated by the realisation that Sidious was the Chancellor, since it strikes at the very core of his principles. There's all sorts of hyperbolic prose used to drive that notion home, but in the end, it's made clear that Mace soldiers on. That, I believe, is a significant mental confrontation and triumph for Mace, and may be grounds for a significant growth in power in the middle of RotS alone. This is what I've been referring to with my previous few references to a power boost/mental confrontation in RotS.

There's also a quote saying out of Yoda's students, Mace's rise through the ranks of the Jedi was almost unprecedented. I can only think of one other of Yoda's students that might've grown through the ranks as fast as Windu(i.e. Dooku), which to me implies the two are fairly close with regards to potential, something further backed up by the fact that there's several quotes placing Tyranus' potential within Yoda's range.

Quote? It's interesting, but the fact that Mace is an equal of Dooku's despite being three decades younger is proof of greater potential in my eyes. Rising through the ranks is not always a measure of potential.

Fair enough, though the point is he can still choke Mace-tier characters.

Well, my argument hinges on the fact that Mace isn't Dooku-tier.

But to what degree? Legends paints it as there being a pretty vast disparity, whereas Canon still has a disparity there but just much less noticeable. If you blend the two together, Mace is still going to be a full tier or so below Sidious.

Once again, I'll remind you that Lucas' word is also part of Legends, and carries absolute authority. So Sidious cannot stomp Mace with the Force, no matter what.

Oh, I'm not arguing Mace vs Revan, just the gap that exists between Sheev and Windu.

Again, I acknowledge the gap and the fact that it's considerable. But just the fact that the Chancellor cannot immediately stomp Mace with the Force at his leisure is proof enough for me that Revan has no chance of doing it.

After all, Dooku was able to contend with Yoda in sabers despite a significant gap existing between them. So contention in spite of a considerable gap is entirely possible.

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#44 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16523 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Ambiguous, to be sure, but if he can compete at all, that means that Sidious can't stomp him with the Force. And therefore Revan can't. That's really all I said in that earlier post of mine.

Ah, then fair enough.

Although I'm actually now contemplating whether that means Mace is more powerful than Revan, since I do believe Revan would be stomped by Palpatine in the Force. Not to mention 32 BBY Mace alone is more powerful than novel Revan, and whilst SoR Revan is much stronger than Revan Reborn, we have reason to believe that Mace also grew immensely in the 13 years up to his death.

Tell that to Ant. I'm sure he'd love to hear it :3

Just where does Dark Rendezvous establish that Dooku is at least as powerful as Mace by then? It's also plausible to argue that Mace had a big boost in the middle of RotS as well, an argument that I'll make below.

"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."

[...]

On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Well, Mace being a near-equal of Dooku's by TPM alone would suggest much greater potential. Whilst this is in no way indicated by evidence (pretty much due to lack of exposure of Mace and Dooku's younger selves), how I see it is that Dooku has been second only to Yoda as a Jedi for quite some time. Mace, being of greater potential, starts from infinitely behind Dooku but grows immensely, and by TPM, begins to rival Dooku in spite of the fact that he's 30 years younger. At that point, Dooku leaves the Order and joins the Sith, becoming more powerful in his own right over the next 13 years. However, Mace, being of much greater potential, grows even more, especially with the aid of a couple of extremely significant events. By RotS, he's now passed Dooku's tier.

That's assuming Mace rivals Dooku in the Force, which nothing really notes. We do know Dooku has a "far better understanding of the Force" than his peers, which includes Windu. Anyways, Mace being comparable to Jedi! Dooku by TPM doesn't indicate much greater potential in any sense. Dooku still apparently had a long way to go since he himself has nigh-Yoda level potential, which Windu isn't implied to have.

There's also the fact that learning curves in Star Wars aren't consistent, nor linear; you can undergo a pretty significant growth of power despite being at your peak. I mean: Bane, Savage, and Luke progressed faster than Anakin did but we know Anakin has superior potential. You can't really base Windu having much greater potential than Tyranus on Dooku and Mace being comparable by TPM.

There's also another fact to consider: both Dooku and Mace were trained in exactly the same arts of combat and the Force, thus at a certain point both would more-or-less stagnate since there's nothing new to learn, you can just keep perfecting what you already know and it's safe to say both Dooku and Mace had already perfected their respective fighting styles. In fact, Mace took it a step further and invented his own fighting technique alongside several other high-tier Jedi masters and still was inferior to Dooku.

And then there's their drastically different performances against the exact same opponents at the beginning and middle of the Clone Wars, where Dooku is portrayed as superior, thus he still obviously grew more over the course of 10-11 years.

Also, Mace's experience in Shatterpoint is not to be taken lightly. The Force grows within you through physical and mental confrontation, of which Mace had plenty from TPM to RotS. Certainly more physical confrontation than Dooku, and with respect to mental confrontation, his experiences in Shatterpoint and Revenge of the Sith are well beyond Dooku embracing the teachings of the Sith to me.

More physical confrontation? Perhaps against utter fodder like battle droids; Dooku still faced lightsaber wielders and Force users more routinely. And while Mace did have his fair share of mental confrontations, that doesn't really make him any more powerful, just more emotionally stable. Dooku, on the other hand, is accessing Sith teachings of some of Palpatine's most powerful predecessors and surpassing them to the point that he considers them "lesser arts". He's consistently learning and growing, Mace isn't.

Mace's few emotional struggles still aren't enough to overshadow Dooku, who himself had a fair share of emotional struggles, plus an extreme boost in both knowledge and power while Mace was stuck perfecting the same techniques. Tyranus' growth is inferrably greater.

As we're still on the topic of Legends, I'd like to remind you that the RotS novel notes that Mace was absolutely devastated by the realisation that Sidious was the Chancellor, since it strikes at the very core of his principles. There's all sorts of hyperbolic prose used to drive that notion home, but in the end, it's made clear that Mace soldiers on. That, I believe, is a significant mental confrontation and triumph for Mace, and may be grounds for a significant growth in power in the middle of RotS alone. This is what I've been referring to with my previous few references to a power boost/mental confrontation in RotS.

That's... just Mace coming to terms with the Chancellor being a Sith, something he had already suspected. It's hardly a vast power-growth in the middle of RotS.

Quote? It's interesting, but the fact that Mace is an equal of Dooku's despite being three decades younger is proof of greater potential in my eyes. Rising through the ranks is not always a measure of potential.

Fair enough.

Well, my argument hinges on the fact that Mace isn't Dooku-tier.

It can also work assuming Dooku didn't try to defend himself from Sidious, as well. :mmm:

Once again, I'll remind you that Lucas' word is also part of Legends, and carries absolute authority. So Sidious cannot stomp Mace with the Force, no matter what.

Looking over the Making of the Revenge of the Sith film, the quote seems to imply purely saber combat since it's referring to the scene where Mace brings the B-team and Sheev slaughters them.

I mean, we all already knew Mace can compete as a swordsman.

Again, I acknowledge the gap and the fact that it's considerable. But just the fact that the Chancellor cannot immediately stomp Mace with the Force at his leisure is proof enough for me that Revan has no chance of doing it.

And I ain't arguing for Revan, though. So I don't really care.

After all, Dooku was able to contend with Yoda in sabers despite a significant gap existing between them. So contention in spite of a considerable gap is entirely possible.

There isn't really a significant gap between Dooku and Yoda in sabers. :3

Maybe in the Force, though.

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#45 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova: Since when have Lucas' words been part of Legends? He has said he considers the EU a different universe entirely, even before the continuities officially split.

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#46 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16523 posts) - - Show Bio
@azronger said:

Since when have Lucas' words been part of Legends? He has said he considers the EU a different universe entirely, even before the continuities officially split.

^ This, too.

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#47 Posted by Azronger (4334 posts) - - Show Bio

But if Mace truly is comparable to the Emperor, then he wins this by a landslide.

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#48 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2678 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova

I mostly believe them to be equals or near equals. IMO, Mace is overall more powerful, and has greater raw potency, but Dooku is more masterful, more skilled, refined, has better knowledge, not to mention more experience etc. On a scale, they somewhat balance each other( though I might give Mace the edge here). I also view Dooku to be a better duelist than Mace, and not very slightly. And yes, the fact that Mace and Dooku are relative peers, despite Mace not outright falling to the dark side and getting the advantages Dooku has had, not being power hungry for his whole life and being Dooku's junior by 30 years does indicate that his potential is quite high, higher than Dooku's.

Also for this:

Also, Mace's experience in Shatterpoint is not to be taken lightly. The Force grows within you through physical and mental confrontation, of which Mace had plenty from TPM to RotS. Certainly more physical confrontation than Dooku, and with respect to mental confrontation, his experiences in Shatterpoint and Revenge of the Sith are well beyond Dooku embracing the teachings of the Sith to me.

According to Silver's theory, the darkness inside Mace fuels his Vaapad even more. So considering that:

Obi-Wan's whole body had gone numb. This didn't seem real. It was not possible that he was actually having this conversation.

"You haven't been here, Obi-Wan." Mace stared bleakly down at his hands. "You've been off fighting the war in the Outer Rim.

You don't know what it's been like, dealing with all the petty squabbles and special interests and greedy, grasping fools in the Senate, and Palpatine's constant, cynical, ruthless maneuvering for power—he carves away chunks of our freedom and bandages the wounds with tiny scraps of security. And for what? Look at this planet, Obi-Wan! We have given up so much freedom—how secure do we look?."

Obi-Wan's heart clenched. This was not the Mace Windu he knew and admired; it was as though the darkness in the Force was so much thicker here on Coruscant that it had breathed poison into Mace's spirit—and perhaps was even breeding suspicion and dissension among the members of the Jedi Council.

The greatest danger from the darkness outside came when Jedi fed it with the darkness within.

He had feared he might find matters had deteriorated when he returned to Coruscant and the Temple; not even in his darkest dreams had he thought it would get this bad.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith

The last time he was in full contact with Mace and on Coruscant, was just before the outer rim sieges. That was just 6 months prior to this. If in 6 months the darkness inside Mace can increase to this level that Obi Wan hadn't even imagined in his darkest dreams, then it is to be left to the imagination, as to how much it would have increased over the course of 3 full years of the war, the context of which I don't really need to elaborate. And in such a case, in addition to the substantial growth he would have undergone naturally( as other powerful Jedi did), the boosts he would get from Vaapad would be much higher in ROTS than it would be in AoTC or Shatterpoint. Which would honestly mean a vast difference between ROTS Mace and Shatterpoint Mace in force power. Not Sidious's tier, obviously, but decisively higher than Dooku's. His dueling may have improved, but I haven't seen any kind of indication that it did by any meaningful margin. Which is aside from the fact that Mace is honestly somewhat overrated in dueling ability( in my opinion).

Though on Dooku vs Mace, Dooku may just win a small majority. Mostly because, honestly I view him to be a better lightsaber wielder than Mace, and not by a very small amount either.

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#49 Posted by Alex7861able (117 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight There shouldn't be a noticeable gap between Mace and Dooku in sabers. And if there is it's Mace over Dooku not the other way around. There are normally two sources that people generally use to put Dooku over Mace. The one talking about only two Jedi overcoming Mace in combat back when Dooku was still a Jedi. The two Jedi being Yoda and Dooku. And the one in Dark Rendezvous where Yoda says perhaps Mace was only. equal to Dooku. However this refuses to take into account other sources. The book is from 2004 and the other quote I think is around that time period. But there are quotes saying that Mace is above Dooku. This quote is from 2010.

Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection 49 (credit to Sunrazer)

There are two ways to interpret this quote either it's talking about them at their respective primes. Which makes sense because the quote does not seem to limit itself to a certain time period. Or you can take it as when Mace and Dooku were both Jedi. And even though Dooku grew as a Sith lord I believe there was a quote stating that he had little to focus on regarding dueling so he focused on things such as Dun Moch. On the other hand during the Clone Wars Mace was able to come to terms with his own inner darkness. Which is an integral part of Vappad increasing his potency in combat and the Force. With this and other sources not to mention Mace's actual feats, saying he is above Dooku by a bit makes sense.

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#50 Edited by ShootingNova (25691 posts) - - Show Bio
@azronger said:

Since when have Lucas' words been part of Legends? He has said he considers the EU a different universe entirely, even before the continuities officially split.

The fact that he doesn't believe the EU is part of canon doesn't mean the inverse isn't true. The films are all part of the EU, and an integral part at that, since the idea of the Expanded Universe is that they're expanding... on the films. Generally, whatever applies to the films applies to the EU as well unless there are blatant contradictions.

@lordofthelight said:

According to Silver's theory, the darkness inside Mace fuels his Vaapad even more. So considering that:

The last time he was in full contact with Mace and on Coruscant, was just before the outer rim sieges. That was just 6 months prior to this. If in 6 months the darkness inside Mace can increase to this level that Obi Wan hadn't even imagined in his darkest dreams, then it is to be left to the imagination, as to how much it would have increased over the course of 3 full years of the war, the context of which I don't really need to elaborate. And in such a case, in addition to the substantial growth he would have undergone naturally( as other powerful Jedi did), the boosts he would get from Vaapad would be much higher in ROTS than it would be in AoTC or Shatterpoint. Which would honestly mean a vast difference between ROTS Mace and Shatterpoint Mace in force power. Not Sidious's tier, obviously, but decisively higher than Dooku's. His dueling may have improved, but I haven't seen any kind of indication that it did by any meaningful margin. Which is aside from the fact that Mace is honestly somewhat overrated in dueling ability( in my opinion).

Though on Dooku vs Mace, Dooku may just win a small majority. Mostly because, honestly I view him to be a better lightsaber wielder than Mace, and not by a very small amount either.

I'm not here to argue Mace vs Dooku, and I'm only going to do so in the context of what supports my case. Anything other than that ought to be in another thread.

As for the increases in inner darkness, that's another point in favour of Mace's growth as well.

@wollfmyth209 said:

Just where does Dark Rendezvous establish that Dooku is at least as powerful as Mace by then? It's also plausible to argue that Mace had a big boost in the middle of RotS as well, an argument that I'll make below.

"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."

[...]

On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

The accolades refer to Dooku as a Jedi, not as of the moment. Hence why it refers to him being a Jedi student and the Order's most gifted apprentice. The quote itself is present-tense, but the accolade refer to the past for obvious reasons.

That's assuming Mace rivals Dooku in the Force, which nothing really notes.

Down to the fact that they're peers as lightsaber combatants and that Mace is the most powerful Jedi bar Yoda, with Dooku's case hinging on a subjective in-universe accolade. It is partly down to assumption too, but not unreasonable assumption, I don't think — certainly not something you can just dismiss given the extent of your own argument's reliance on unsupported assumptions.

We do know Dooku has a "far better understanding of the Force" than his peers, which includes Windu. Anyways, Mace being comparable to Jedi! Dooku by TPM doesn't indicate much greater potential in any sense. Dooku still apparently had a long way to go since he himself has nigh-Yoda level potential, which Windu isn't implied to have.

Dooku's understanding of the Force was far better than his "peers", peers being his classmates in the context of that quote. Mace obviously isn't part of that.

That aside, it doesn't even matter what Dooku's potential is. The fact of the matter is that Mace is around Dooku's level despite being 30 years younger. There's no need to distort the obvious; Mace has more potential.

And Dooku's potential is not outright said to have been nigh-Yoda level (the one about being on par with Yoda refers to stature and respect).

There's also the fact that learning curves in Star Wars aren't consistent, nor linear; you can undergo a pretty significant growth of power despite being at your peak. I mean: Bane, Savage, and Luke progressed faster than Anakin did but we know Anakin has superior potential. You can't really base Windu having much greater potential than Tyranus on Dooku and Mace being comparable by TPM.

The thing is, Anakin himself fluctuated, but we know from AotC and RotS he had huge growths anyway. Not to mention that all of your characters were much older (and Savage was amped by magick) than 9 years old when they started training, so it's not quite the same. Generally, if you compare two characters' growth from the same age, you can tell which one has more potential.

There's also another fact to consider: both Dooku and Mace were trained in exactly the same arts of combat and the Force, thus at a certain point both would more-or-less stagnate since there's nothing new to learn, you can just keep perfecting what you already know and it's safe to say both Dooku and Mace had already perfected their respective fighting styles. In fact, Mace took it a step further and invented his own fighting technique alongside several other high-tier Jedi masters and still was inferior to Dooku.

Mace inventing a fighting technique brought his fighting skills to at least on par with Dooku's, if not higher.

And no, nothing suggests that Mace knew everything that TPM Dooku did in the Force. That's another baseless assumption on your part.

And then there's their drastically different performances against the exact same opponents at the beginning and middle of the Clone Wars, where Dooku is portrayed as superior, thus he still obviously grew more over the course of 10-11 years.

What do you mean? I'm arguing for Mace's growth over the course of 13 years, with his growth in those final three years obviously eclipsing Dooku's significantly.

More physical confrontation? Perhaps against utter fodder like battle droids; Dooku still faced lightsaber wielders and Force users more routinely. And while Mace did have his fair share of mental confrontations, that doesn't really make him any more powerful, just more emotionally stable. Dooku, on the other hand, is accessing Sith teachings of some of Palpatine's most powerful predecessors and surpassing them to the point that he considers them "lesser arts". He's consistently learning and growing, Mace isn't.

Mace's few emotional struggles still aren't enough to overshadow Dooku, who himself had a fair share of emotional struggles, plus an extreme boost in both knowledge and power while Mace was stuck perfecting the same techniques. Tyranus' growth is inferrably greater.

Not seeing a few spars and the occasional real duel taking precedence over Mace also having spars and being a leading wartime general such that he had to give up his position as Master of the Order. As for fighting droids, guess what Anakin and Obi-Wan spent their three years doing. They still ended up growing hugely.

Where is it said that Mace isn't consistently learning and growing? If you think TPM Mace and Dooku are equal in sabers, then Mace has improved by AotC, so he's certainly growing there. And it's much easier to grow in the Force than in lightsaber combat, especially when you've reached such a level of skill already.

Do you honestly think that Mace has already hit his peak by TPM, at the age of 40, and isn't even growing anymore?

That's... just Mace coming to terms with the Chancellor being a Sith, something he had already suspected. It's hardly a vast power-growth in the middle of RotS.

What? It's a mental confrontation for Mace, and it's huge. And we know mental confrontations cause the Force to grow within you. This is Mace coming to grips with the fact that the Sith are in control of something that he's spent his life fighting for, that the Sith may have already won, that civilisation, the thing he secretly loves, is under control of the Sith...

And don't feed me the shit about him suspecting it. The novel makes it blatantly clear how shattered he is upon learning of it.

It can also work assuming Dooku didn't try to defend himself from Sidious, as well. :mmm:

A bit un-Sithlike and contrary to human instinct, but that would work as well.

In all, though, it seems to me as if you're trying to keep Mace from moving past Dooku's level when it's blatantly clear that Mace is capable of contending with Sidious and Dooku really can't. The fact of the matter is that if by RotS, Mace can compete with Palpatine, then he just can. You can't try to scale off Dooku's comparisons to past iterations of Mace to annul that fact — that would just prove that Mace grew immensely after the last valid comparison with Dooku. And I gave you a fully plausible and supported explanation for why that'd be the case. There's even more mental confrontations than the ones I've listed, such as Mace coming to grips with Sora's fall, etc.

Looking over the Making of the Revenge of the Sith film, the quote seems to imply purely saber combat since it's referring to the scene where Mace brings the B-team and Sheev slaughters them.

I mean, we all already knew Mace can compete as a swordsman.

Full quote? I mean, the idea is that Sidious couldn't have stomped with the Force, so it's fair if he doesn't try it.

There isn't really a significant gap between Dooku and Yoda in sabers. :3

Maybe in the Force, though.

There's an enormous gap between a level 8 and a level 9 per Gillard. Even if Dooku borders on 9, there's a significant gap.