@azronger said:
Since when have Lucas' words been part of Legends? He has said he considers the EU a different universe entirely, even before the continuities officially split.
The fact that he doesn't believe the EU is part of canon doesn't mean the inverse isn't true. The films are all part of the EU, and an integral part at that, since the idea of the Expanded Universe is that they're expanding... on the films. Generally, whatever applies to the films applies to the EU as well unless there are blatant contradictions.
@lordofthelight said:
According to Silver's theory, the darkness inside Mace fuels his Vaapad even more. So considering that:
The last time he was in full contact with Mace and on Coruscant, was just before the outer rim sieges. That was just 6 months prior to this. If in 6 months the darkness inside Mace can increase to this level that Obi Wan hadn't even imagined in his darkest dreams, then it is to be left to the imagination, as to how much it would have increased over the course of 3 full years of the war, the context of which I don't really need to elaborate. And in such a case, in addition to the substantial growth he would have undergone naturally( as other powerful Jedi did), the boosts he would get from Vaapad would be much higher in ROTS than it would be in AoTC or Shatterpoint. Which would honestly mean a vast difference between ROTS Mace and Shatterpoint Mace in force power. Not Sidious's tier, obviously, but decisively higher than Dooku's. His dueling may have improved, but I haven't seen any kind of indication that it did by any meaningful margin. Which is aside from the fact that Mace is honestly somewhat overrated in dueling ability( in my opinion).
Though on Dooku vs Mace, Dooku may just win a small majority. Mostly because, honestly I view him to be a better lightsaber wielder than Mace, and not by a very small amount either.
I'm not here to argue Mace vs Dooku, and I'm only going to do so in the context of what supports my case. Anything other than that ought to be in another thread.
As for the increases in inner darkness, that's another point in favour of Mace's growth as well.
@wollfmyth209 said:
Just where does Dark Rendezvous establish that Dooku is at least as powerful as Mace by then? It's also plausible to argue that Mace had a big boost in the middle of RotS as well, an argument that I'll make below.
"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our great student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our great failure."
[...]
On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
The accolades refer to Dooku as a Jedi, not as of the moment. Hence why it refers to him being a Jedi student and the Order's most gifted apprentice. The quote itself is present-tense, but the accolade refer to the past for obvious reasons.
That's assuming Mace rivals Dooku in the Force, which nothing really notes.
Down to the fact that they're peers as lightsaber combatants and that Mace is the most powerful Jedi bar Yoda, with Dooku's case hinging on a subjective in-universe accolade. It is partly down to assumption too, but not unreasonable assumption, I don't think — certainly not something you can just dismiss given the extent of your own argument's reliance on unsupported assumptions.
We do know Dooku has a "far better understanding of the Force" than his peers, which includes Windu. Anyways, Mace being comparable to Jedi! Dooku by TPM doesn't indicate much greater potential in any sense. Dooku still apparently had a long way to go since he himself has nigh-Yoda level potential, which Windu isn't implied to have.
Dooku's understanding of the Force was far better than his "peers", peers being his classmates in the context of that quote. Mace obviously isn't part of that.
That aside, it doesn't even matter what Dooku's potential is. The fact of the matter is that Mace is around Dooku's level despite being 30 years younger. There's no need to distort the obvious; Mace has more potential.
And Dooku's potential is not outright said to have been nigh-Yoda level (the one about being on par with Yoda refers to stature and respect).
There's also the fact that learning curves in Star Wars aren't consistent, nor linear; you can undergo a pretty significant growth of power despite being at your peak. I mean: Bane, Savage, and Luke progressed faster than Anakin did but we know Anakin has superior potential. You can't really base Windu having much greater potential than Tyranus on Dooku and Mace being comparable by TPM.
The thing is, Anakin himself fluctuated, but we know from AotC and RotS he had huge growths anyway. Not to mention that all of your characters were much older (and Savage was amped by magick) than 9 years old when they started training, so it's not quite the same. Generally, if you compare two characters' growth from the same age, you can tell which one has more potential.
There's also another fact to consider: both Dooku and Mace were trained in exactly the same arts of combat and the Force, thus at a certain point both would more-or-less stagnate since there's nothing new to learn, you can just keep perfecting what you already know and it's safe to say both Dooku and Mace had already perfected their respective fighting styles. In fact, Mace took it a step further and invented his own fighting technique alongside several other high-tier Jedi masters and still was inferior to Dooku.
Mace inventing a fighting technique brought his fighting skills to at least on par with Dooku's, if not higher.
And no, nothing suggests that Mace knew everything that TPM Dooku did in the Force. That's another baseless assumption on your part.
And then there's their drastically different performances against the exact same opponents at the beginning and middle of the Clone Wars, where Dooku is portrayed as superior, thus he still obviously grew more over the course of 10-11 years.
What do you mean? I'm arguing for Mace's growth over the course of 13 years, with his growth in those final three years obviously eclipsing Dooku's significantly.
More physical confrontation? Perhaps against utter fodder like battle droids; Dooku still faced lightsaber wielders and Force users more routinely. And while Mace did have his fair share of mental confrontations, that doesn't really make him any more powerful, just more emotionally stable. Dooku, on the other hand, is accessing Sith teachings of some of Palpatine's most powerful predecessors and surpassing them to the point that he considers them "lesser arts". He's consistently learning and growing, Mace isn't.
Mace's few emotional struggles still aren't enough to overshadow Dooku, who himself had a fair share of emotional struggles, plus an extreme boost in both knowledge and power while Mace was stuck perfecting the same techniques. Tyranus' growth is inferrably greater.
Not seeing a few spars and the occasional real duel taking precedence over Mace also having spars and being a leading wartime general such that he had to give up his position as Master of the Order. As for fighting droids, guess what Anakin and Obi-Wan spent their three years doing. They still ended up growing hugely.
Where is it said that Mace isn't consistently learning and growing? If you think TPM Mace and Dooku are equal in sabers, then Mace has improved by AotC, so he's certainly growing there. And it's much easier to grow in the Force than in lightsaber combat, especially when you've reached such a level of skill already.
Do you honestly think that Mace has already hit his peak by TPM, at the age of 40, and isn't even growing anymore?
That's... just Mace coming to terms with the Chancellor being a Sith, something he had already suspected. It's hardly a vast power-growth in the middle of RotS.
What? It's a mental confrontation for Mace, and it's huge. And we know mental confrontations cause the Force to grow within you. This is Mace coming to grips with the fact that the Sith are in control of something that he's spent his life fighting for, that the Sith may have already won, that civilisation, the thing he secretly loves, is under control of the Sith...
And don't feed me the shit about him suspecting it. The novel makes it blatantly clear how shattered he is upon learning of it.
It can also work assuming Dooku didn't try to defend himself from Sidious, as well. :mmm:
A bit un-Sithlike and contrary to human instinct, but that would work as well.
In all, though, it seems to me as if you're trying to keep Mace from moving past Dooku's level when it's blatantly clear that Mace is capable of contending with Sidious and Dooku really can't. The fact of the matter is that if by RotS, Mace can compete with Palpatine, then he just can. You can't try to scale off Dooku's comparisons to past iterations of Mace to annul that fact — that would just prove that Mace grew immensely after the last valid comparison with Dooku. And I gave you a fully plausible and supported explanation for why that'd be the case. There's even more mental confrontations than the ones I've listed, such as Mace coming to grips with Sora's fall, etc.
Looking over the Making of the Revenge of the Sith film, the quote seems to imply purely saber combat since it's referring to the scene where Mace brings the B-team and Sheev slaughters them.
I mean, we all already knew Mace can compete as a swordsman.
Full quote? I mean, the idea is that Sidious couldn't have stomped with the Force, so it's fair if he doesn't try it.
There isn't really a significant gap between Dooku and Yoda in sabers. :3
Maybe in the Force, though.
There's an enormous gap between a level 8 and a level 9 per Gillard. Even if Dooku borders on 9, there's a significant gap.
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