Poll Red Hood vs Daredevil (181 votes)
Red Hood 40%
Daredevil 60%
VS
Bloodlust ON
Morals OFF
Prep 1 Day
Standard Gear
Location:BludHaven
Time:Night
Red Hood vs Daredevil
I forgot about this...
I was wondering why you didn't reply :)
What exactly makes you think Lady Shiva whose fighting style involves the use of her hair is anything close to what Shiva was Pre-Flashpoint?
Who can you use that against her in anyway? She literally is so freaking skilled that her hair is a weapon. IMHO, Pre-Flashpoint Shiva wasn't worth the hype she had. Her feats included stalemating Batman, beating people Batman would beat, and losing to people Batman would also likely beat. Add this to the fact the she used to only be a H2H fighter. Jason fought a superior version of Shiva, while she was armed with swords. Yes, new 52 Shiva is superior, she has stomped Nightwing (New 52 Grayson is better then his Pre-Flashpoint self) and she beat Batman (Yeah, I know, she poisoned him, no big deal he has fought through poison literally hundreds of times.) Before you say something ridiculous like "That was when Batman was young and inexperienced" I say BS. That Batman has still had all the same training, and he survived the Zero Year. Just one of the many things to happen in ZY is Batman beating 2 lions. Also you need to keep in mind that Shiva is apparently close to Nightwing's age now, that means she beat Batman, when she was only a teenager.
Jason using pressure points on her is meaningless,
No, just no, no need to lowball man.
Matt doesn't use them because they tend to create great pain to his foes.
Or because he isn't skilled enough to land them on those characters.
What makes Ras better than Punisher, which Daredevil used pressure points more than once.
The fact that Ra's has stalemates with Batman puts him beyond the Punisher.
Red Hood's skill is almost nonexistent
Are you high? Or are you just that incredibly biased? If you have ever read even a quarter of what I have posted regarding Todd then you'd know this is the dumbest thing anybody has ever said.
Matt took on 100 trained Meta Humans from The Hand under 3 minutes without any damage whatsoever.
Keywords "took on". He didn't beat them. He danced around wasting time until backup arrived. Jason while without gear, suffering from massive blood loss, and freezing cold, fought and killed an Untitled, without being tagged once.
Matt has killed before and his billy clubs are enough to gain the upper hand on Captain America and Iron Fist.
Dude, come on now. Matt has killed when extremely pressed to. He isn't gonna do in willy nilly versus Red Hood. I believe Jason would also beat Cap. And Matt only tagged Iron Fist cause he was not using chi, holding back, and uncomfortable because he was trying to copy DD's fighting style. Neither Murdock or Todd would stand any chance in hell to a not holding back Iron Fist.
Even though you have a valid point here, i fail to see how it's a definitive one, it's barely a factor against people who consistently fights people who are armed to the teeth.
It's definitive cause Jason is, 1. Not fodder, 2. Not a jobber (like say Nuke or Deadpool), 3. Not massively holding back (Like Punisher).
Matt has a bullet-proof suit as well and there's nothing stopping him from using it considering he already did precisely because he was preparing for a fight and the dangers outside. He utilized advanced warfare materials, industrial systhetics and bio-polymer technology to create his suit and it is there for him to use as shown in Daredevil #321...
Dude, atleast read the OP. They only have standard gear. His bullet resistant (definitely not proof) suit is not standard gear.
Either way, he's the suit in action in case you're still skeptical about it, as shown in Daredevil #335 when Bushwhacker shot him with a rifle-like weapon and still couldn't penetrate the armor. It worths to note before you try and downplay the instance, Daredevil got shot with bullet from a weapon Jason does not have with a much higher caliber, speed and impact, moreover, he got shot in the first place because torrential rain, powder in the air and deafened by Bushwhacker's gun right next to his ear made him unable to predict the shot, however, he was still able to predict his moves by feeling the warm light of a motorcycle coming by meters away from him, likewise, and like i stated before, Matt was still able to reflect a bullet after it was shot from a place he wasn't expecting, while having all his senses dampened sans tact. Anyways, here's the scan...
Not that this matters now, but i'll just counter it anyway. Isn't Bushwhacker the dude with the finger gun? I fail to see how a finger could possibly be on par with a rifle, rather then a handgun.
Jason's guns are one of the most powerful handguns made, and he has customized them to make then better. Also, if this dude witha finger gun can tag Matt, then I'm positive Jason can. Jason has shot Tim Drake while not even looking at him. And Tim Drake is fast enough to bullet time on instinct. Before I even have to say this....................yes, Tim is a bullet timer, not just an aim dodger, I am not a moron.
Matt bringing this suit to the fight isn't out of character at all if he's preparing himself, you thinking Jason will somehow deduce Matt is blind and act accordingly prior to the fight is rather unlikely and not accurate to the scenario in question.
It may not be out of character, but it's unavailable for the sake of this thread. If Jason has prep time to learn about his opponent he is surely gonna use it. Jason will be able to analyze Matt's life (considering his identity is no secret) and use it against him to get inside his head, and he will also study how DD fights to better be able to combat him. Jason has perfected a move, just by watching Talia do it incorrectly.
What? Daredevil has fought and beaten Deadpool, Black Panther, Captain America, Female Black Panther, Wolverine, Punisher, Lady Bullseye, Echo and Elektra just to mention a few and most of them would give Jason a run for his money if not flat out beat him.
- Deadpool has never fought with the intention of killing or even harming Matt.
- Matt only ever stood a chance against Black Panther back in the 70s or 80s, way before the street level god BP is nowadays.
- Captain America is inferior to Batman, who Jason has beaten.
- Don't know who female BP is, but she is probably nowhere near BPs level.
- Wolverine is a jobber half the time. He seriously forgets how to fight and has to take refresher courses. That should tell you something.
- Punisher always holds back on Matt.
- Matt beating Lady Bullseye isn't impressive because her only feats are beating Matt and loseing to Matt. She has some statements as well, but those are no feats.
- Don't know Echo.
- Elektra, while faster then Jason, would also be beaten by Jason considering his massive gear and tactics advantage.
If we go by showings Jason was beaten by Nightwing which in return is someone i also see below Daredevil as well,
I would love for you to tell me the context of this fight. Because I doubt you have even read it. Also, you see Jason and Grayson below Murdock only because you want to. They are just as good as him (if not better) and they have gear to go along with their skills.
by history Daredevil was trained by a very skilled ninja named "Stick" since he was a child and trained in such a way his blindness is actually a gift and likewise,
Wow, he was trained by a one whole guy. Gee wizz that's real impressive considering the dozens of people Jason's trained under. NOT. (In some versions) Rader sense seems to be a taught ability more then a power exclusive to Matt. Jason has also been trained to fight blind by the All Caste. And he has actually fought on par with Tim Drake while, not only blind, but also disoriented from a flashbang to the face.
Matt not only overpowered everyone in The Hand, but the fact he actually turned into the ruler of said ninja clan by fighting prowess alone.
IIRC its said or shown somewhere that Jason beat his own teachers at the All-Caste. Not to mention he has beaten his old teachers as well, Batman, Nightwing, Shiva, to name them. Has Daredevil ever beaten Stick? Jason also became the leader of the League of Assassins, which (to my knowledge) holds more influence then the Hand.
Matt has also killed.
Again, but he wouldn't here.
if we go by that, Matt runs to Stark and tells him to create billy clubs capable of knocking 50 toners down because he's morals off and he's preparing.
This is something that I really don't understand. Why is it so damn hard to grasp? Jason and Roy live together, they are a team, in literally everything they do. Jason prepping with Roy, isn't so out of range to compare it to Daredevil asking Stark or Reed to help him out.
He doesn't need to have a definitive weakness, the fact he's still a street leveler means he can be beaten exactly like Nightwing did for all i know.
Again, I'd love for you to show your knowledge on how Grayson beat Todd.
Matt gets stunned by explosion right next to his ear, the fact he's been able to fight when 5 of his 6 senses are completely nullified means he has the means to fight Jason as well.
And Jason isn't the type to job and monologue and give Matt the time to recover. As soon as Matt gets stunned our knocked down, Jason is gonna put the finishing moves on him.
Jason has nothing on Matt and you'll be fighting a losing battle considering Matt has over 50 years of instances whereas you have roughly 20 if you take Pre-52 into account.
Except, ya know, all those advantages I already listed in my other post. Really now? Really? A "highly respected debater" such as yourself thinks that more issues automatically means better feats? Lol, get the hell out with that shit, you should know better.
I was wondering why you didn't reply :)
No worries, i'll keep this up now.
Who can you use that against her in anyway? She literally is so freaking skilled that her hair is a weapon. IMHO, Pre-Flashpoint Shiva wasn't worth the hype she had. Her feats included stalemating Batman, beating people Batman would beat, and losing to people Batman would also likely beat. Add this to the fact the she used to only be a H2H fighter. Jason fought a superior version of Shiva, while she was armed with swords. Yes, new 52 Shiva is superior, she has stomped Nightwing (New 52 Grayson is better then his Pre-Flashpoint self) and she beat Batman (Yeah, I know, she poisoned him, no big deal he has fought through poison literally hundreds of times.) Before you say something ridiculous like "That was when Batman was young and inexperienced" I say BS. That Batman has still had all the same training, and he survived the Zero Year. Just one of the many things to happen in ZY is Batman beating 2 lions. Also you need to keep in mind that Shiva is apparently close to Nightwing's age now, that means she beat Batman, when she was only a teenager.
I mentioned the hair because Pre-Flashpoint Lady Shiva didn't had such fighting style and the fact is such a big deal Jason used pressure points on her is because she's regarded as a highly skilled street leveler in other stories that don't match with her New-52 representation. In fact, Lady Shiva in New-52 barely has feats besides beating Nightwing and she could be very well below her past incarnation. I understand he used pressure points, but nearly all street levelers have a degree of them, Daredevil on the other hand consistently uses such techniques on foes, either unskilled or not because that's what his training was mostly about, in fact, the instance you're referring to Jason didn't do anything besides dodging 1 kick and tap her in the back/neck to neutralize her, that's barely a definitive feat to suggest he's as skilled as Matt who has used pressure points in the heat of an intense battle against someone whose tanking abilities and pain toleration are beyond ridiculous, namely, Punisher. All in all, i feel completely different about the instance in question considering i see Shiva getting cocky and paying for it rather than an indication Jason is more skilled than her. If it was more in character for Nightwing to show pressure points or something of that indole, he would have done the same considering he still got good hits on her in their encounter.
As per her fight with Batman, are you referring to the time when she infiltrated the Bat-Cave? Because they didn't engage in physical combat and Batman was merely ambushed by her.
No, just no, no need to lowball man.
It is indeed meaningless to the point you're trying to make. Even though you see Shiva as a very skilled fighter, so do i with Punisher and Echo and that didn't stop him from using them in intense combat, not like the 1 panel instance you're trying to exploit here, is not lowballing, is flat out disagreement on views.
Or because he isn't skilled enough to land them on those characters.
He already has...
The fact that Ra's has stalemates with Batman puts him beyond the Punisher.
How exactly did Ra's stalemate him and how are you planning on connecting this with Jason. Mind citing the instance you're referring to? Because if you're naming that instance that took place in New-52, Ra's was weakened and they just used swords, as far as close combat, fist by fist, locks, pressure points and other paraphernalia, Ra's is not someone worth to note as far as i'm concerned.
Are you high? Or are you just that incredibly biased? If you have ever read even a quarter of what I have posted regarding Todd then you'd know this is the dumbest thing anybody has ever said.
None of the above, show me Red Hood's skill because i had a CaV against him and i didn't see a single indicator that would put him as an insanely skilled person like Batman, Daredevil, Wolverine, Black Panther or other top tier street levelers, in fact, i've seen more about Nightwing that would make him partially debatable with the greats than i've seen of Red Hood, but again, feel free to show me these feats.
Keywords "took on". He didn't beat them. He danced around wasting time until backup arrived. Jason while without gear, suffering from massive blood loss, and freezing cold, fought and killed an Untitled, without being tagged once.
He beat them all before the Back Up arrived as it was blatantly stated in Daredevil #57 the fight was over under 3 minutes and the back up on a good day needs at least 3 minutes to arrive to the location, i don't think you've analyzed the issue properly mate, because it was seriously implied Matt took on every single one of them in a 1 vs 100 Gang War caliber encounter without any harm whatsoever. Moreover, it was also stated the back up, which was the FBI didn't stop the fight, which means it was Matt's all doing.
Dude, come on now. Matt has killed when extremely pressed to. He isn't gonna do in willy nilly versus Red Hood. I believe Jason would also beat Cap. And Matt only tagged Iron Fist cause he was not using chi, holding back, and uncomfortable because he was trying to copy DD's fighting style. Neither Murdock or Todd would stand any chance in hell to a not holding back Iron Fist.
The fight is Morals Off, why should i assume his emotional wick is going to be larger if he has no morals holding him back? There's nothing stopping Matt from fighting to death. Matt overpowered Iron Fist by suing Billy Clubs throws and still managed to dodge Iron Fist's chi imbued attack after Iron Fist found himself overpowered by not using his fighting style, regardless, that wasn't the only encounter Matt had with Iron Fist and Danny himself has been impressed with Daredevil's street fight style to the point of asking him the names of those attacks and what not. Moreover, i think Matt's Billy Clubs should overpower Jason as they are incredibly unpredictable to the point of overpowering master martial artists that also have precognition. That said, i agree Danny should beat both Matt and Jason.
It's definitive cause Jason is, 1. Not fodder, 2. Not a jobber (like say Nuke or Deadpool), 3. Not massively holding back (Like Punisher).
The fodder Matt took on in the aforementioned issue was trained by The Hand and was the same fodder who was easily deflecting bullets with their swords, on top of that being amped to Meta-Human levels by the use of a Mutant Growth Hormones drugs. Moreover, Punisher wasn't holding back by his own statements during their encounters in Punisher vs Daredevil story arc and by his own admission he was nigh-helpless skill-wise against Matt's fighting prowess.
Dude, atleast read the OP. They only have standard gear. His bullet resistant (definitely not proof) suit is not standard gear.
The suit was standard gear for him for more than 20 issues. I think he has enough instances to suggest he can grab his suit and prepare for battle just as easy as Jason would with gear he barely uses and still is considered standard. Right now, in all honesty, i think you're discarding something you shouldn't.
Not that this matters now, but i'll just counter it anyway. Isn't Bushwhacker the dude with the finger gun? I fail to see how a finger could possibly be on par with a rifle, rather then a handgun.
Bushwhacker can resemble plenty of guns with his arm and when it takes up to his forearm to form a gun it means he's not using a simple handgun, you can even see his arm completely transformed in a weapon instead of his index finger resembling a handgun's muzzle as it is shown in the same story arc, by the same writer and the same artist during the same issue...
Moreover, his mimicking ability with guns is not limited to handguns and he can very well imitate weapons up to shotguns, assault rifles and even flamethrowers as it is blatantly visible during Punisher vs Daredevil #3 and to give you a better picture on how to differentiate the guns Bushwhacker is imitating at the moment, i'll show you him using the exact same handgun he used in the scan above.
Gallery
I think there's enough proof to claim those were no normal bullets, if you disagree then it's up to you, but i don't think it would be logical to do so given the overwhelming proof there is to support my point. Moving on...
Jason's guns are one of the most powerful handguns made, and he has customized them to make then better. Also, if this dude witha finger gun can tag Matt, then I'm positive Jason can. Jason has shot Tim Drake while not even looking at him. And Tim Drake is fast enough to bullet time on instinct. Before I even have to say this....................yes, Tim is a bullet timer, not just an aim dodger, I am not a moron.
Good for Jason, bullets won't mean much against someone who is fast enough to reflect them back at the shooter after they've been shot. Anyways, as i told you, Bushwhacker wasn't imitating a handgun in the instance and again, Daredevil had the entire environment against him, neutralizing most of his senses when Bushwhacker tagged him. Why did you ignore that part? Either way, Tim Drake is not Daredevil and i'm pretty sure you know Daredevil has dodged and reacted to bullets exponentially better than Tim.
It may not be out of character, but it's unavailable for the sake of this thread. If Jason has prep time to learn about his opponent he is surely gonna use it. Jason will be able to analyze Matt's life (considering his identity is no secret) and use it against him to get inside his head, and he will also study how DD fights to better be able to combat him. Jason has perfected a move, just by watching Talia do it incorrectly.
It's not unavailable mate, for preparation purposes is completely understandable if he changes his suit considering he had it for a quite good amount of time. As per your preparation, there's several factors that should refute such notion, Matt doesn't live where Jason does, he first needs to figure out who he's fighting, then figure out who's behind the mask, then figure out a way to get intel on him, then figure out a way to see him fighting to analyze his moves, then find a way to magically know Daredevil is blind and that he has enhanced senses for him to grab the proper "standard" gear, Matt on the other hand is just changing his suit to a bullet-proof one because he doesn't want to get shot... It's not as far fetched as your strategy.
Deadpool has never fought with the intention of killing or even harming Matt.
Yes he has and he did it twice. For the sake of the debate, let's cite the most current one in Deadpool #11 where Deadpool needed to kill a "cheerleader" and Matt was in the way, he wasn't holding back nothing and he was going to kill that cheerleader at any cost and Matt himself confirms Deadpool was not lying and then he proceeded to attack Matt ending in a easily incapacitated Deadpool.
Gallery
I don't know why you would claim Deadpool has never fought Matt with the intention to kill if Deadpool fighting precisely like that is completely in-character for him most of the time.
Matt only ever stood a chance against Black Panther back in the 70s or 80s, way before the street level god BP is nowadays.
It was the same Black Panther who was flipping elephants down, taking on the fantastic four and taking on Captain America. It's a good feat whether or not you acknowledge it. That said, i'm not implying Matt would beat Black Panther, much less current one.
Captain America is inferior to Batman, who Jason has beaten.
That's a subjective stance and it a very debatable case and when did Jason beat Batman? Regardless, Batman holds back against him and hopefully you don't imply he beat Batman off panel just before having Nightwing jumping on him.
Don't know who female BP is, but she is probably nowhere near BPs level.
What? If you don't know her how could you be so sure she's nowhere near Black Panther? She's a very skilled fighter and she's also a meta-human by possessing the Heart-Shaped Herb same as Pre-King of the Dead Black Panther. In fact, she has stats up to the level of taking advantage over Proxima during New Avengers #11 by dodging her lance throw and actually throwing a wakandian lance back at her quick enough Proxima couldn't react...
Even though i can agree with the notion of her being below Black Panther for obvious reasons, i fail to see why you would put her "nowhere near" if she was trained by Black panther himself and on top of that is actually Black Panther right now, even more so when the fact she still was completely unharmed after dealing with 3 black panthers before having the Heart-Shaped Herb.
Wolverine is a jobber half the time. He seriously forgets how to fight and has to take refresher courses. That should tell you something.
So what, that doesn't mean Daredevil fighting him somehow falls under Wolverine jobbing, in fact, the issue was very respectable to both characters. That's a reaching argument and going by your logic, everytime someone fights Wolverine and he's matched, he's jobbing.
Punisher always holds back on Matt.
Not always.
Matt beating Lady Bullseye isn't impressive because her only feats are beating Matt and loseing to Matt. She has some statements as well, but those are no feats.
You are using statements for Jason, why would you do such thing if statements are not feats. Same goes by being trained by 400 people for all i care and still have a very slight chance to show actual skill.
Don't know Echo.
She's very skilled and knows every single move Matt does and replicates it with uncanny ease.
Elektra, while faster then Jason, would also be beaten by Jason considering his massive gear and tactics advantage.
Still, she's a skilled fighter and Matt beat her, why is Jason above Matt then?
I would love for you to tell me the context of this fight. Because I doubt you have even read it. Also, you see Jason and Grayson below Murdock only because you want to. They are just as good as him (if not better) and they have gear to go along with their skills.
I read Battle for the Cowl, don't worry, and there's no context about it as far as i can tell, they were both fighting for the same thing and Nightwing won at the end by kicking him IIRC after Jason jumped on him. What context can be possibly exploited here to justify Jason losing?
Wow, he was trained by a one whole guy. Gee wizz that's real impressive considering the dozens of people Jason's trained under. NOT. (In some versions) Rader sense seems to be a taught ability more then a power exclusive to Matt. Jason has also been trained to fight blind by the All Caste. And he has actually fought on par with Tim Drake while, not only blind, but also disoriented from a flashbang to the face.
Yes, Matt was trained by 1 person that is skilled enough he can sneak up on someone who can feel changes on the air pressure and changes on the acoustics of 1 decibel, hell, Matt can even hear the electrical currents of people's brains. Regardless Matt is still good enough to make Iron Fist compliment his fighting style and go toe to toe against Captain America and actually beat him, same goes for Wolverine and other high tier street levelers like Sabretooth and Deadpool. All blind people have eco-location but they don't have Matt's radar... It's completely exclusive of him.
IIRC its said or shown somewhere that Jason beat his own teachers at the All-Caste. Not to mention he has beaten his old teachers as well, Batman, Nightwing, Shiva, to name them. Has Daredevil ever beaten Stick? Jason also became the leader of the League of Assassins, which (to my knowledge) holds more influence then the Hand.
When did he beat Batman and Daredevil has bested Stick more than once, what are you implying man? We're arguing irrelevant points, it doesn't matter who has more curriculum material, feat-wise Matt is just superior to Todd unless you start showing something i haven't seen.
Again, but he wouldn't here.
If that's a way out, i don't see why Matt couldn't opt to kill him, it's morals off anyways.
This is something that I really don't understand. Why is it so damn hard to grasp? Jason and Roy live together, they are a team, in literally everything they do. Jason prepping with Roy, isn't so out of range to compare it to Daredevil asking Stark or Reed to help him out.
Matt is an avenger and has the avenger communicator. If you're going to have Roy involved in Todd's preparation, might as well accept the fact Matt can ask for help as well. In fact, Jason asking Roy for gear or prepping with him would put him completely out of standard gear.
Again, I'd love for you to show your knowledge on how Grayson beat Todd.
I think it's better for you to point out why the fight isn't legit to begin with.
And Jason isn't the type to job and monologue and give Matt the time to recover. As soon as Matt gets stunned our knocked down, Jason is gonna put the finishing moves on him.
There was no monologue in the instance i'm referring to. It was a surprise attack. -.-
Except, ya know, all those advantages I already listed in my other post. Really now? Really? A "highly respected debater" such as yourself thinks that more issues automatically means better feats? Lol, get the hell out with that shit, you should know better.
I didn't mean that, having more issues means i can prolong this debate as far as can whereas you need to restrain yourself from posting everything in a single argument. I didn't mean Matt was better because he had more issues, just that it was a losing battle for you considering you'll lack the feats to put Jason above Matt whereas Matt has more from where to drag feats from. That's all. You didn't mention advantages, you mentioned Jason's paraphernalia and utility and stated your opinion on why Jason is more skilled and all that jada jada which is completely debatable. That said, the gear you mentioned isn't enough to put him above either and is certainly not a game changer unless you show me cases where it would logically apply, not that Matt hasn't dealt with people carrying plethora of gear before.
Anyways, keep you hostility to yourself or start posting your shit, i'm making sure you're not winning this one.
@ghostravage said:
"Blah Blah Blah pointless shit."
Anyways, sure, Batman would beat Daredevil, Jason is another story.
No man, it's entirely the same story. Batman beats Daredevil, that is fact. Why does he beat him? Skill and Equipment advantages. Now add this to the fact that Jason has beaten Batman in both skill and equipment, it clearly means he has the ability to beat Daredevil as well.
Now here I go.................Jason and Bruce really only have one definitive fight (their first encounter), but that fight has been shown 3 different times, I'll go over each one.
Batman: Under the Red Hood - Batman #635
Gallery
As you can see, the fight has already been started when we see it. Batman looks to be in worse condition, he has a bloody face, a cut across his arm, and an exposed hand from an exploded gauntlet. While on the other hand Jason only has two cuts, one on his arm and another on his chest. (Scan 1). Batman lands a kick to Jason's chest, and two (pointless) batarang slices across his mask. He mentions how Jason uses words as distractions. (Scan 2). Jason lands a knee to Bruce's face, cuts off his utility belt and backfists him in the face in one motion, slices him across the chest, and kicks him where he just sliced, and he does this all faster then Bruce could react. All Bruce can do is compliment Jason's skill. (Scan 3). Even after the speedblitz Jason just pulled off on Batman, he manages to cut him across the neck, Batman finally responds by throwing Jason off the building. (Scan 4). Jason reacts and stops his free fall, Bruce kicks him on the way down. (Scan 5). Batman lands on top of Jason, pinning him to the ground, and says "this is over". Yeah, Bruce is getting pissed, yet Jason easily reaches from where he cut Bruce's mask, yanks it off, and escapes his hold. He does this effortlessly. (Scan 6). Bruce gets up, clearly more injured then Jason. (Scan 7). When Jason takes his mask off, Bruce is surprised at his identity. (Scan 8).
As you can see Jason clearly took the edge here. Yes, neither were out of fighting shape, but Jason showed that he deals much much more damage then he receives. Just for fun let's tally this up.
- Jason lands 2 punches, 2 kicks, 3 knife strikes, and was able to steal Batman's mask.
- Bruce lands 0 punches, 2 kicks, 2 batarang strikes, and was able to throw Jason off a building.
Please, with unbiased eyes, look at this and tell me Jason didn't win.
Batman: Under the Red Hood - Batman #641
Gallery
Batman was able to sneak up on Jason. (Scan 1). Batman dodges Jason's gunfire. (Scans 2 and 3). Jason leaps over a rocket propelled dumpster. Batman brings Jason down with a wire. (Scan 4). Jason reacts instantly, he cuts Bruce's wire, attaches a taser to it and electrocutes Batman so hard his (bullet proof) gauntlet explodes. (Scan 5). Batman throws three "batbombs" at Jason, they are so powerful they demolish a car and send Jason flying through the air. Jason really isn't even harmed though, he regains control in midair and grabs onto a ladder. (Scan 6). Batman tackles Red Hood, but then Jason pins his cape to the ground and lands two attacks on him. (Scan 7). Batman cuts himself free of his cape, they both exchange some attacks, most notably Jason being able to land a knife attack on Bruce's neck. (Scan 8). Cut to where the fight ends (Scan 9).
The full fight from this perspective seems a bit more balanced.....it's really not. Jason took the edge here. Let's tally this up.
- Jason lands 2 punches, 1 kick, 1 knife strike, 1 headbutt, and was able taser Batman through his own line, pin his cape to the ground, and was able to steal Batman's mask.
- Bruce lands 1 punch, 1 kick, 1 batarang strike, and was able to tag Jason with a line and some bombs, tackle him (only as he was running away), and throw Jason off a building.
Let's factor some stuff in as well. Since these two fights are the same, this second part skipped over the part when Jason speed blitzed Bruce and disarmed him of his utility belt. Also, Jason was able to clearly visibly hurt Batman with his taser, while Jason literally went unaffected by Bruce's bombs.
One more thing to factor in here. Bruce is pretty freaking pissed, and says things like "it's over", "it ends tonight", and "time to learn the truth". Batman didn't even know he was fighting Jason at this point in time. So none of that "He was holding back BS". But on Jason's side of things, he isn't trying to kill Batman, he isn't trying to even defeat Batman, not yet, at this point in time he was just trying to piss him off until he could set up his big finale with the Joker.
So again.............Please, with unbiased eyes, look at this and tell me Jason didn't win.
New 52 Under the Red Hood - Red Hood and the Outlaws #6
Yeah, a whole one scan, not a lot to go on, but there is some stuff to note. Jason is standing over Batman, and has a gun to his head. Jason has again disarmed Batman of his utility belt. Two things that we can't answer though is, if Batman knew he was fighting Jason before the mask came off, and how long Jason had been crying for. Another thing we at least know is that Jason didn't use All-Blades in this fight, Batman said so in Batman/Superman Annual 1. So while there's not a whole lot of context, Jason did beat Bruce.
Counters:
I'll just throw some up to save us some time.
"Batman is easily evading Jason's gunfire, so Daredevil could as well"
False. Jason isn't actually trying to shoot Bruce. If Jason knows his opponent personally, he won't use his guns against them lethally. He uses then to direct his opponents into traps or just where it would better suit him to engage them in a fight. Tim says so in his solo Robin series.
"Jason only beats Batman cause he goes for the kill and Bruce holds back a massive amount"
False. Jason has never fought Batman with the intention of seriously harming him, let alone killing him. Sure Bruce holds back as well, but only in every other fight but their first encounter, when Batman was unaware it was Jason, and was sick of the games and trying to end the fight. This should be obvious, but at least Lobdell did something right and gave me some proof:
"Matt is too fast for Jason to tag with any of his gear or keep up with in a fight"
While yes, Matt has faster feats then Jason, and while yes Matt is more agile, Jason is definitely not outclassed. Batman has compared Jason's agility to Grayson's, ya know, the world's greatest acrobat. Grayson is stated multiple times to be faster then Batman himself, yet Jason has tagged him with batarangs, and even outpaced him in their fight (Outsiders 44). Yeah, Murdock does has faster reaction feats, there's nothing i can post for Jason directly to put him on the same level. But what I can do is say Batman is just as fast as Matt, dodging snipers off instinct, blocking machine gun fire off his gauntlets, blitzing a dozen guys (disarming them so fast they down even see him), and despite all this Jason was able to outpace Batman in a fight. Remember? At one point, Jason knees Bruce in the face, cuts off his belt, backfists him across the face, slices his chest open, kicks his chest, and lands an insanely precise cut across Batman's mask so he can rip it off later. Matt is not too fast for Jason.
I am not gonna counter everything in your old post, but just a couple things I think are pretty important. This is too save us both some time, not because I can't actually counter or pull out some nonsense things you said.
Good for Jason, bullets won't mean much against someone who is fast enough to reflect them back at the shooter after they've been shot.
Jason's guns blow holes in guys with armour three times as thick as Matts. His bullets would break right through Matt's armour and his weapons.
I read Battle for the Cowl, don't worry, and there's no context about it as far as i can tell, they were both fighting for the same thing and Nightwing won at the end by kicking him IIRC after Jason jumped on him. What context can be possibly exploited here to justify Jason losing?
Dude, I'm sorry, but you clearly didn't read it good enough. It is one of the most context heavy stories of all time. Dick Grayson was destined to be the new Batman, Jason was portrayed as the enemy standing in his way. Jason was not incharacter for this story, he previously had watched some video that Bruce made, that caused him to lose his shit (Even UtRH Jason wouldn't shoot Damian). When the fight actually starts Jason baits Dick into a taser trap, it knocks him down for a moment, something Jason doesn't capitalize on. Jason was a dumb villain here, not an extremely tactical anti-hero that he was before. Jason jobs and monologues about how Dick should be his Robin (Jason would never want that in character), giving Grayson the time to regain his strength, stand up, and punch him across the face. Now the fight starts and Jason actually manages to hit Grayson with some fear gas, then that's about it.....the only attacks Jason lands on Dick from this point is some point blank batarangs and IIRC only 1 punch. This goes against every fight they have previously had. Their most famous fight is Outsiders 44, which is written by Winick, Jason's definitive writer, and writer of UtRH, Winick is also an experienced Nightwing writer as well. Tony Daniel, the writer of BftC, is..........not a writer at all, he was an artist, this was his first story IIRC. He is even known for his writing to be bland and pretty bad (Batman Reborn- non Morrison stuff, Catwoman IIRC, New 52 Deathstroke and New 52 Detective Comics). I have also read interviews where Daniel said this was his way to make Jason a villain and never give him the chance to be a good guy again..............obviously his plans didn't stick. For all these reasons and more, BftC should not be taken seriously for its portrayal of Jason Todd.
Yes, Matt was trained by 1 person that is skilled enough he can sneak up on someone who can feel changes on the air pressure and changes on the acoustics of 1 decibel
Yeah, that's not too impressive considering Jason was able to disappear on Supergirl and she couldn't find him even with X Rays and planet level super hearing.
Regardless Matt is still good enough to make Iron Fist compliment his fighting style
And that's better then both Batman and Nightwing complimenting the Red Hood? (Obviously before they knew who he was)
Anyways, keep you hostility to yourself or start posting your shit, i'm making sure you're not winning this one.
Boy am I gonna start some shit with this comment.......This is why you shouldn't be on the Hall of Fame, this is why I personally don't respect a damn thing you say.Debates like this are to learn about the other character, not prove who would win at all costs. I am open minded, I know you that you know more about Daredevil then I do, I also know that you agreed that Batman could beat him. So me saying (and showing) that Jason is superior to Batman should prove to you, that I am right. On the other hand, you just think Daredevil wins, and nothing, nothing at all will change your mind. You are going into this with the mindset that you need to "win". That's not the point at all. Chill out, slow the F down, and try to learn something about Jason, cause you obviously know very little about him or his abilities.
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