Avatar image for arcus1
#1 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Hood:

No Caption Provided

VS

Black Widow:

No Caption Provided

When these two assassins do battle, who will win?

Pre/post Flashpoint feats for Jason allowed

Fight takes place in the streets of Metropolis. Time is night

Both are in character. Victory by ko or death

Round 1:

Both are unarmed.

Starting distance is 10 feet

Round 2:

Both have two standard handguns

Starting distance is 100 feet

Who wins?

Avatar image for supremegeneration
#2 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11438 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow both rounds, high difficulty. Might also be sleeping on RH.

Avatar image for anthp2000
#3 Edited by ANTHP2000 (25830 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow for both, R1 is debatable, R2 is pretty definitive, Todd has always been overrated in my eyes.

Avatar image for arcus1
#4 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow both rounds, high difficulty. Might also be sleeping on RH.

Any reasons?

Widow for both, R1 is debatable, R2 is pretty definitive, Todd has always been overrated in my eyes.

Why do you think R2 is so definitive?

Avatar image for anthp2000
#5 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25830 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Her fights with Elektra and Hawkeye are both too good for either a long, mid or close ranged shootout IMO.

Avatar image for supremegeneration
#6 Posted by SupremeGeneration (11438 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@supremegeneration said:

Widow both rounds, high difficulty. Might also be sleeping on RH.

Any reasons?

Comes off as more impressive to me. She's highly underrated imo. People consider her stalemating Elektra a high-end/outlier but she also has feats of beating Jaguar (DD villain who one stalemated him iirc, could be wrong, don't quote on that), Lady Bullseye (has actually beaten Daredevil), and even a bloodlusted Hawkeye I'm pretty sure, who himself is no slouch.

Avatar image for arcus1
#7 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio

@anthp2000: got an issue/scans for the fight with Hawkeye?

Avatar image for god_spawn
#8 Posted by God_Spawn (42999 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason.

Moderator
Avatar image for deactivated-5c830d4e319e6
#9 Posted by deactivated-5c830d4e319e6 (4952 posts) - - Show Bio

Could go either way.

Avatar image for anthp2000
#10 Posted by ANTHP2000 (25830 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: The one I'm talking about is the 10th issue of Black Widow Vol4, from 2014. One of my favourite comicbook fights. There's too many scans to post without breaking the rules, but I'll format some and link the rest when I get on my computer.

She's escorting someone inside Pakistan and Hawkeye's attempting to assassinate him. The have a long ranged battle.

Avatar image for arcus1
#11 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for arcus1
#12 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: The one I'm talking about is the 10th issue of Black Widow Vol4, from 2014. One of my favourite comicbook fights. There's too many scans to post without breaking the rules, but I'll format some and link the rest when I get on my computer.

She's escorting someone inside Pakistan and Hawkeye's attempting to assassinate him. The have a long ranged battle.

I checked it out, nice showing. Granted, this is a pretty different set-up than that encounter, but still some solid marksmanship

Avatar image for hurricanefunnel
#13 Posted by hurricanefunnel (2151 posts) - - Show Bio

black widow by abilities, mismatch

Avatar image for arcus1
#14 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio

black widow by abilities, mismatch

Why do you think it's a mismatch?

Avatar image for allstarsuperman
#15 Posted by AllStarSuperman (43019 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Her fights with Elektra and Hawkeye are both too good for either a long, mid or close ranged shootout IMO.

How so?

Jason actually beating Batman in the first "Under the Red Hood" fight is much better of a feat then the short 3 page tie between Widow and Elektra. Jason and Bruce were actually landing good hits on each other and putting each other through explosions and tasers. They kept up a drawn out fight testing both their endurances. Elektra and Widow's fight had none of this. They basically danced for 15 seconds then called it off. - Jason beating Nightwing in the first "Brother's in Blood" fight is also proof of him handling someone of Elektra's skill and agility. They fought briefly on a rooftop with Jason positioning himself correctly and throwing Grayson off the roof. Even this fight is more definitive than the "tie" between Elektra and Natasha.

As for Widow beating Hawkeye in a long range fight. Jason beating (actually just toying with) Green Arrow in a close range fight is way more impressive. Jason was just wasting time while Green Arrow was angry and fighting to his fullest. Jason dodged all his shots - blocked his arrows with a sword - and knew all the tactics he would try. The fight ends with Jason just leaving when he wants and Ollie admitting he got played.

-

I think Natasha is fully capable of giving Jason a good fight. I even had to say so in my own thread from a few years back.

Batman (Jason Todd) vs Black Widow - Battles - Comic Vine

But currently I think Todd would for sure win.

Avatar image for deactivated-5c15205dbdcac
#16 Posted by deactivated-5c15205dbdcac (503 posts) - - Show Bio

Widow

Avatar image for ashrym
#17 Posted by Ashrym (2832 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Hood in a good fight.

Avatar image for wollfmyth209
#18 Posted by WollfMyth209 (16261 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Hood. Solid fight.

Online
Avatar image for the_badman
#19 Posted by The_Badman (2725 posts) - - Show Bio

Red Hood both rounds, the first one rather easily. Jason's showings against people like Batman and Nightwing are much more impressive and consistent for him than Widow's fight against Elektra.

Avatar image for king-ragnar
#20 Posted by King-Ragnar (3752 posts) - - Show Bio

Getting repeatedly beaten and humiliated by Batman is not impressive.

Avatar image for deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4
#21 Edited by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

Todd getting humiliated by Post Flashpoint Batman doesn't make him much more impressive than Elektra or Lady Bullseye the latter of which Nat has beaten and the former stalemated while having undergone major surgery days earlier

(My computer won't upload scans so I'll post imgur links)

https://imgur.com/a/O4CJkMc: Lady Bullseye

--------------------------------------------------------------

https://imgur.com/a/vapmmEG: Elektra

She's also stomped Crossbones who's given Captain America and Deadpool good fights

https://imgur.com/a/XKMjRrw

and she also stalemated Daredevil in a sparring match where neither pulling their punches "in the slightest"

https://imgur.com/a/FBKyRrk

I've seen nothing that suggests him winning at all much less easily

Avatar image for arcus1
#22 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for deactivated-5c15205dbdcac
#23 Posted by deactivated-5c15205dbdcac (503 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: Widow because she fought Elektra/Lady bullseye/Winter solider/Hawkeye and With standard gear could go either way

Avatar image for arcus1
#24 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio

As for Widow beating Hawkeye in a long range fight. Jason beating (actually just toying with) Green Arrow in a close range fight is way more impressive. Jason was just wasting time while Green Arrow was angry and fighting to his fullest. Jason dodged all his shots - blocked his arrows with a sword - and knew all the tactics he would try. The fight ends with Jason just leaving when he wants and Ollie admitting he got played.

I'm not sure I'd call that a win in the strictest sense. Jason achieved his objective of distracting Ollie, in the same way that Brick achieved his objective of distracting Batman, but I don't think it's the same as if Jason straight up beat Ollie in a normal fight. Definitely shows Jason's quick reflexes and that he knew what to expect going up against Ollie's archery, as well as Jason's tactical ability, not contesting either of those (really, it's the swordfight part that I go back and forth on, but that's not relevant to this fight...)

Avatar image for zazafrost
#25 Edited by ZazaFrost (50 posts) - - Show Bio

I think widow can win,She beat crossbones really easily I think she has this.

Avatar image for godxdarkxopal
#26 Posted by GodxDarkxOpal (521 posts) - - Show Bio

RH 8.5/10

Avatar image for arcus1
#27 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio

I think widow can win,She beat crossbones really easily I think she has this.

Both rounds?

RH 8.5/10

Both rounds/reasons?

Avatar image for danieldaripper
#28 Posted by DanielDaRipper (5304 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason.

Avatar image for warlockmage
#29 Posted by Warlockmage (9074 posts) - - Show Bio

hey look a fight Jason probably wins

Avatar image for arcus1
#30 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4
#31 Edited by deactivated-5c8fd6cb3e4f4 (18365 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason had prep when he fought Ollie in Green Arrow Vol. 3 #70 despite that he got disarmed and was put at sword point by Ollie when they had their sword fight. You could argue Jason wasn't going all out but I don't think you can use that showing to justify Jason being able to toy with Ollie

---------------------------------------

Here Nat dismantles a large group of ninja girls whilst engaging all of them at once

Gallery image 1Gallery image 2Gallery image 3Gallery image 4
Widowmaker #3

just one of these ninjas were FTE to Hawkeye in combat in the same fight

No Caption Provided

I have Ollie a tiny bit above Clint in CQC regardless I haven't seen anything from Jason to say he could dispatch Clint this casually.

Avatar image for hurricanefunnel
#32 Posted by hurricanefunnel (2151 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1 said:
@hurricanefunnel said:

black widow by abilities, mismatch

Why do you think it's a mismatch?

'by abilities'

Avatar image for batvibe12
#33 Posted by Batvibe12 (5580 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm leaning towards Black Widow.

Avatar image for arcus1
#34 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for hurricanefunnel
#35 Posted by hurricanefunnel (2151 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for joviolma
#36 Posted by JOVIOLMA (5605 posts) - - Show Bio

BW.

Avatar image for nathaniel_adam
#37 Posted by Nathaniel_Adam (3707 posts) - - Show Bio

.

Jason actually beating Batman in the first "Under the Red Hood" fight is much better of a feat then the short 3 page tie between Widow and Elektra. Jason and Bruce were actually landing good hits on each other and putting each other through explosions and tasers. They kept up a drawn out fight testing both their endurances. Elektra and Widow's fight had none of this. They basically danced for 15 seconds then called it off. - Jason beating Nightwing in the first "Brother's in Blood" fight is also proof of him handling someone of Elektra's skill and agility. They fought briefly on a rooftop with Jason positioning himself correctly and throwing Grayson off the roof. Even this fight is more definitive than the "tie" between Elektra and Natasha.

As for Widow beating Hawkeye in a long range fight. Jason beating (actually just toying with) Green Arrow in a close range fight is way more impressive. Jason was just wasting time while Green Arrow was angry and fighting to his fullest. Jason dodged all his shots - blocked his arrows with a sword - and knew all the tactics he would try. The fight ends with Jason just leaving when he wants and Ollie admitting he got played.

-

I think Natasha is fully capable of giving Jason a good fight. I even had to say so in my own thread from a few years back.

Batman (Jason Todd) vs Black Widow - Battles - Comic Vine

But currently I think Todd would for sure win.

This dude knows Jason better than pretty much anyone here in this thread.

Yes, Jason wins, not even close in my opinion.

Avatar image for arcus1
#38 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for michaelbn
#39 Posted by Michaelbn (2338 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason stomps her like there's no tomorrow while thanks to his post-flashpoint feats.

Avatar image for arcus1
#40 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason stomps her like there's no tomorrow while thanks to his post-flashpoint feats.

Both rounds? What feats do you think let him stomp her?

If it's taking out Shiva, I believe that even the writer has stated that was due in part to Shiva's arrogance, and beyond that could be attribute to some PIS as well

Avatar image for michaelbn
#41 Posted by Michaelbn (2338 posts) - - Show Bio

f

@arcus1 said:
@michaelbn said:

Jason stomps her like there's no tomorrow while thanks to his post-flashpoint feats.

Both rounds? What feats do you think let him stomp her?

If it's taking out Shiva, I believe that even the writer has stated that was due in part to Shiva's arrogance, and beyond that could be attribute to some PIS as well

I won't call it PIS (maybe a bit) but gaining advantage of someones emotional traits is also a battle tactic and what most of "shaolin style" martial artists use, not to mention some people beat pre-flashpoint Jason just because of his rage which blinded him in fights. he said she taught him this KO technique and he used it against her while gaining advantage of shiva's arrogance.

next one is he almost killed Cass Cain, don't remember the issue correctly but I guess it was in batman eternal which all of the robins teamed up to take down someone named the mother, she just made a joke out of everyone with her body-reading ability, while Jason was the only one to notice this and her heavy reliance on this ability and said he something like "I know what are you doing and all things I need is to surprise myself" proving he's adept and expert in this technique (if not a master) and if it wasn't because of Nightwing (agent 37 back then) she must've been dead.

He cracked a talon's neck easily while other brat-family members had problems. (note that talons are super zombie ninjas with insane level of fighting skills)

use front kick against the tremendous DEATH-freaking-STROKE (note 1: Deathstroke doesn't have his healing factor working properly and had his superhuman durability nerfed a bit/note 2: few people used front kick against Slade and were successful)

he kicked Timmy with much strength that he flied so much, feat of his strength and skill to do it properly.

strength to lift and toss it with one hand while batman caught it with one and used two to lift, also it's a proof of his grappling and throwing techniques of martial arts.

He kicked the crap out of several Spyral tainees with Grayson's help. (note they were limited since hitting them hard= death because...reasons)

making batman fuzzy with his fists (note: both held back)

mounting batman and giving him trouble.

almost killed batman and interrupted by Nightwing... AGAIN. (note: Jason didn't held back while Bruce did 50%)

beating highly trained S.W.A.T teams naked. (if I were you I would have give him a speed feat too)

defeating Slade (Slade were nerfed some bit in terms of durability and hf and Jason just fight to hurt him not kill)

being faster than TIM but receiving more hits yet tanking them. (Timmy were pissed off while Jay held back)

Can fight blinded and Tim admitted he's no match for him in some way.

a technique taught by All-Castewhich takes everyone superhuman powers and immortality.

stalemating ravager. (he just held back all the time and joking while she was serious)

and I guess there's no need to debate his marksmanship.

Avatar image for deactivated-5c15205dbdcac
#42 Posted by deactivated-5c15205dbdcac (503 posts) - - Show Bio

Natasha in a good fight

Avatar image for arcus1
#43 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio

@bpg said:

Natasha in a good fight

Both rounds/any reasons?

Avatar image for deactivated-5c15205dbdcac
#44 Posted by deactivated-5c15205dbdcac (503 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1:

Round One :

Her fight against Elektra and lady bullseye makes her comfortably above red hood

Round Two :

Red hood in a good fight has better marksmanship feats

Avatar image for arcus1
#45 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump

Avatar image for thatoneguy887
#46 Posted by Thatoneguy887 (1098 posts) - - Show Bio

Time of OP and now, widow both rounds.

Avatar image for strongerthanrin
#47 Edited by StrongerThanRin (340 posts) - - Show Bio

Jason both rounds

Avatar image for arcus1
#48 Edited by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio
Avatar image for thatoneguy887
#49 Posted by Thatoneguy887 (1098 posts) - - Show Bio

@arcus1: BW has had better showings overall and newer ones to build off of....

Avatar image for arcus1
#50 Posted by Arcus1 (27662 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump