Red Guardian Vs. Karli Morgenthau

@ashconwell: We have no idea how it went off-screen. We see Panther instantly break out of the headlock and kick him into submission. For all we know, everything before that could have just been Panther dodging and parrying, with Clint failing to do anything of substance.

Besides, Panther scales to WS, who stomped Widow multiple times. The idea that Hawkeye is anywhere near Panther is silly. It's probably in my Top 10 least favorite Comicvine arguments of all time. Getting stomped by BP doesn't make Clint Daredevil level, much less higher than it.

Glad we agree on the Chitauri point though. Anything to push back against the rampant MCU Hawkeye wank.

@greysentinel365:

So you're saying she can fight as normal despite superficial injuries. Thankyou for debunking yourself. Please never bring this up again.

Being injured can obviously affect your performance in a fight. Someone injured wouldn't be at their absolute 100%. No need to ignore it. That's obvious. If Clint had his car getting blown up, then got hit multiple times by the superhuman Taskmaster, got kicked off the bridge and swimmed across an entire lake, before fighting Yelena the next day, I would take all these factors into consideration to judge who is superior between the two.

For the grand total of the first 20 seconds of the fight. During which Nat got slapped repeatedly. Also worth noting Nat was disarmed of the bow at some point.

Even then Clint used standard arrows, not trick arrows.

Yeah, I don't see how him using a ranged weapon is fair. And I don't see how him using a ranged weapon and still failing to beat her is indicative of him being a better fighter.

Slapped repeatedly? The dude legit only managed to land like 3 hits on Natasha throughout the entire fight lol. He got slapped and diasarmed repeatedly.

Yes.

Ok, so now her hits wouldn't have done anything and she seemingly wouldn't have been able to knock him out eventually but he would...

Literally had a knife in his wrist and could have slit her throat in any chokehold scene (of which he got three IIRC)

Since when does he have knives hidden in his wrists? I don't remember him having them.

He got two. Which she broke out of twice.

Lol he just grabbed her head. Note he had a hand free to do that. Nat couldn't get out of said grip and had to bite. In other words Clint holds was superior and he escaped hers. Thanks for emphasizing that.

Yeah, and she just bit him.

He didn't have her in a grip. He wasn't gripping on her. She was holding on his arm to stop him from stabbing her and he started pulling on her hair to try and overpower her with that arm. Again, how are you going to try and bring up the bite as something bad but ignore him literally PULLING ON HER HAIR?

Citation required.

No citation required. Watch the fight between Natasha and Yelena. At the beggining of the fight, Natasha pins her down before Yelena manages to grab a plate and hit her with it.

NOPE!

Then what?

Except for the one I posted. Wow.

Which one? Once again, I can't see what you posted. It's just blank.

Freaking CVs new gif limits. repost with them linked

So to clarify and prevent squirming, Chitauri >>>> Widow in strength. Blatantly

Clint takes essentially the same type of blow with much greater force from a far stronger opponent and tanks it.

This confirms the K.O on the Helicarrier was circumstantial due to the mind control coming loose. And that Nat cannot K.O Clint, at the very least in this way.

Can't see what you posted

But yeah, it's pretty obvious that Chitauri are physically stronger than Natasha. They have superhuman strength as far as I'm aware. The Chitauri are also >>>> Clint in strength so...

However, I never get why people bring up the Chitauri fight. We are unaware of how many Chitauris Natasha and Clint both fought off-screen. And Natasha was shown beating more in close combat on-screen than Clint.

Even without the mind control coming loose. Natasha would have still managed to land more hits on him later on. Just like she did during the fight.

And you brought up Clint having a knife which he could have slit her throat by getting her in a chokehold. You forget Natasha has her Widow bites which she can use for a quick KO by shooting him or hitting him? (and even then, she didn't feel the need to use them)

@ashconwell: He does draw a knife in the Helicarrier fight. But its only one knife, and I don't think it comes out of his wrist. In any case, it didn't do him much good. Nat still beat him.

@shroudofsorrow:

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Plus he got disarmed of it as it flew out of his hand after Natasha bit him and backflipped on his arm.

Also yeah, Nat did beat him. But apparenty, both an on-screen fight where she beats him and official statements from the producers that she's a better fighter is not enough for people to understand she is indeed, the better fighter.

I mean, at least the fight indicates that Panther probably wasn't able to land a hit on Clint either because we saw how only two hits had him on the ground. So Clint managed to fight him for an entire 40 seconds and possibly not get hit once until he got him in a chokehold. Not a lot of peak humans can fight against Black Panther for an entire 40 seconds. But then like you said, we aren't sure of what happened EXACTLY off-screen.

I think the fight between Bucky and Nat is a bad comparison. Natasha didn't have any weapons and as soon as she saw an opeing, she willingly placed herself in a disadvantageous position (on top of Bucky) to do something else than fight in H2H (break him out of his mind control) which gave Bucky the opportunity to abuse his stats and pin her down. If she continued to fight him in a more traditional H2H exhange (throwing hits, parrying and dodging), then she could have probably lasted a bit longer like Clint against Panther (if Clint jumped on Panther's head, then the same thing that happened to Nat would have probably happened to him).

@ashconwell: Eh, I think WS stomping her with Sharon rather contradicts that idea. But since debating the merits of Hawkeye Vs. BP would derail this thread, I'd rather we discuss it elsewhere, if you don't mind.

@shroudofsorrow:

I'd rather we discuss it elsewhere, if you don't mind.

Sure but I don't know where.