Red Goblin vs Iron Man

Random encounter for Tony, morals on. Goblin has one day of prep. Takes place in an abandoned NYC. Standard gear. Win by k.o or death. Who wins?

If Bleeding Edge is too much, his current suit.

Well, RG is durable enough to no-sell Iron Man repulsor blasts, but Bleeding Edge Iron Man is probably more powerful than current Iron Man tech TBH. So I'd say it's a close fight for now... Maybe RG could take it due to his insane healing factor and the fact that Iron Man really has no way to put him down.

@blackspidey2099: It's crazy to think Red Goblin's near or at this level. Such a cool design too.

Neither of the characters that make up this amalgam are anywhere near Tony's tier, so what makes them such a threat when combined?

He got new feats I'm assuming?

@juiceboks: Well it's not really a 5+5=10<25 scenario. Red Goblin lost the symbiote's weaknesses(fire and loud noises) His strength was amped to the point he was no selling everyone's efforts, his regen was crazy, and he still was beating the breaks off of Spiderman with the Venom symbiote. Plus this Carnage symbiote altered/amped the regular Green Goblin's weaponry and made it more lethal.

Edit: also gave the Red Goblin Prep and Tony none.

I'm unconvinced Norman can even hurt him.

@oreoghoul: Yeah, the Red Goblin would curb stomp regular Green Goblin with relative ease. Made short work of Spiderman(both), Anti-Venom(won't go in depth due to spoilers), Human Torch, and a few others.

@stl9997: Who is "everyone"? Beating Peter with the Venom suit is child's play to classic Iron Man. How is his gear more lethal?

@juiceboks: Pumpkin Bombs that track pretty quickly seemingly with the symbiote enhancement . He no sold Venom, Human Torch, Spiderman(regular and Symbiote), Miles Morales Spiderman, Silk, Anti-Venom(powers had little effect on the symbiote despite that being one of his main abilities), and Clash. Most of them only survived because of Anti-Venom. Red Goblin was able to leave shards of the symbiote within those he came into contact with that would have caused death if Anti-Venom hadn't checked them all over. Also had the ability to turn people into Red Goblins, which corrupted their minds, as his Grandson then became murderous as well.

A question for a question, How does Tony hurt him when all of the symbiote's weaknesses are gone and his healing factor is at an all time high?

Edit: No doubt Tony has the better offense here, but RG's durability is pretty insane.

Yeah. I'm not sure if I'd say he's on the same level as BE Iron Man though - he's probably on the same level as current Iron Man IMO given he was able to no-sell repulsor blasts, but I'd say BE was significantly more powerful than current Iron Man. The main issue I see is that Iron Man has absolutely no way to put him down given his Deadpool++ level healing factor and lack of weaknesses.

yeah, he did. One of the most relevant was no-selling Iron Man repulsor.

@blackspidey2099: Was just about to mention no selling the repulsor.

Tony stomps.

@blackspidey2099: He is gonna no sell blasts that one shotted beings who tanked nuclear blasts and killed characters that tanked mountain busting attacks?

He already did...

Beats him to death with his bare hands. Norman was challenged by Eddie despite the latter being impeded by fire and sonics, Iron Man slapped the same Venom around in the Modular armor.

@stl9997:

Pumpkin Bombs that track pretty quickly seemingly with the symbiote enhancement

If that's all then they're of no use.

He no sold Venom, Human Torch, Spiderman(regular and Symbiote), Miles Morales Spiderman, Silk, Anti-Venom(powers had little effect on the symbiote despite that being one of his main abilities), and Clash

None of these characters are as powerful as BE Iron Man. If that's the extent of his damage soak then he should get oneshotted with a punch or repulsor blast.

Red Goblin was able to leave shards of the symbiote within those he came into contact with that would have caused death if Anti-Venom hadn't checked them all over.

I doubt those shards can penetrate his suit.

Also had the ability to turn people into Red Goblins, which corrupted their minds

Tony has noticeable mind control resistance in his suits so this probably won't work.

@blackspidey2099: Current Tony isn't as nearly as powerful as Tony with Extremis, because ever since he lost Extremis, he was nerfed as hell aside from his Endo Sym feats, which ironically is a new Extremis upgrade as well. Norman also lacks Tony's durability and speed feats, and there are a ton of ways Tony can put him down without utilizing brute force. I mean, how is Norman even gonna hurt Tony?

Bleeding Edge wrecks Red Goblin, Osborn's durability and lack of symbiote weaknesses doesn't change the fact that BE is way more powerful than Current Iron Man. Red Goblin is outmatched against Tony's firepower.

Dude, did you read my post? I literally said RG is able to no-sell current Iron Man blasts, but since Bleeding Edge is more powerful it will be a close fight. I do think someone who can no-sell current Iron Man blasts AND has a Deadpool+ level healing factor won’t be killed or KOed by any repulsor or brute force attacks Bleeding Edge Iron Man has, though. Bleeding Edge is more powerful, but not THAT much more powerful IMO. Anyways, I didn’t say RG would win, just that I thought it would be a good fight since RG should be quicker in terms of combat speed as well. IMO it’s most likely going to be a stalemate with neither able to do much damage to the other.

@blackspidey2099:

Dude, did you read my post? I literally said RG is able to no-sell current Iron Man blasts, but since Bleeding Edge is more powerful it will be a close fight. I do think someone who can no-sell current Iron Man blasts AND has a Deadpool+ level healing factor won’t be killed or KOed by any repulsor or brute force attacks Bleeding Edge Iron Man has, though. Bleeding Edge is more powerful, but not THAT much more powerful IMO.

I did read your post but the reason why I even brought that up is because the gap IS THAT big. You do acknowledge the difference in power between two suits but you do not acknowledge how big the gap is. Given that Tony in the past was able to one shot beings that are leagues above Red Goblin in durability, I am confident he will not only get KO'd, but one-shotted. I mean, Tony one-shotted/killed Hymer in his Pentagon Armor in Thor Vol. 2 #81 after reducing his leg into skeleton. The same character who in the previous issue survived a mountain-mountain+ busting attack after the collusion of multiple Uru weapons.

Gallery

And this is not even one of his highest end feats. He has other feats on this level to prove it's consistent. Norman has nothing on Tony. Just because he no sold his blasts at some point doesn't mean he will tank his fully powered blasts, especially from one of his most powerful suits. And there are other ways for Tony to win. He can literally trap Norman in his force field which he will never penetrate and it is game over for him. And that's just one of several versatile abilities Tony's armor has to win this with ease.

Healing factor is useless if your are gonna destroy someone completely. Tony can also increase the heat of his energy attacks, a heat that will completely burn his suit given that Norman doesn't have any noticeable heat resistance relevant enough to survive Tony's blasts.

Anyways, I didn’t say RG would win, just that I thought it would be a good fight since RG should be quicker in terms of combat speed as well. IMO it’s most likely going to be a stalemate with neither able to do much damage to the other.

Norman hasn't done anything on Tony's level speed wise. Not even close. At least not without scaling, and Tony also has a lot of absurd speed feats even with scaling, and based on standalone speed feats he would blitz Norman into oblivion.

People are actually debating this?

Jesus Christ.

@krleavenger: Well, if you honestly think Bleeding Edge Iron Man can one-shot someone who can no-sell current Iron Man repulsors, then okay. How do you think he'd get past the healing factor though?

That awkward moment when a repulsor blast supposedly cannot hurt a character who was literally grunting out in pain from throat jabs by Spider-Man and who was getting hurt from Spider-Man using the black symbiote (which is an implied amp that added Venom strength to his) and punching him through buildings:

Gallery

Even if we accept a character, with a little bit above Captain America level stats being amped by the Carnage symbiote, no-selling Iron Man's repulsor rays as good writing, he's still not powerful enough to even scratch or dent Tony's suit. The guy couldn't even take down Venom or Spider-Man at the same time without massively struggling. He ended up escaping. His best strength feat is overpowering Parker. He does not have the offensive output to do anything to Iron Man and if he's supposedly capable of no-selling Iron Man's repulsors then he'll just throw him into the sun or space. By the way, this is the repulsor shot scan in question:

Jesus Christ are we in for a treat if Slott actually thinks Tony's tech is this unimpressive.

What you see happening here to Venom (only screaming out from pain by the brushback/indirect force of his repulsor blast), is something that Tony did to Ms. Marvel once by blasting Doomsday Man. Hilarious.

@blackspidey2099:

Well, if you honestly think Bleeding Edge Iron Man can one-shot someone who can no-sell current Iron Man repulsors, then okay.

I mean, MJ just used a gauntlet. She did not have the entire suit, meaning she did not have the Repulsor Tech Node, the main power source for the suit. It's extremely important part of the context to be left out. The fact that she did not have RT Node makes the feat almost irrelevant. Besides, was it ever stated that she used the gauntlet of current suit? For all we know, the tech she used could be a prototype or old school stuff.

How do you think he'd get past the healing factor though?

By damaging him so much, to the point that there will be no suit left to heal or just burn the suit with high temperature blasts.

@krleavenger: That's a good point which I never thought of, but honestly knowing Slott, he probably didn't have that in mind when it was written xD

@krleavenger: The symbiote, when on the Goblin, was not affected by fire or heat. Human Torch couldn't hurt him. Saying the gauntlet could be from an old suit is just as, if not less, probable than saying it's from a new suit.

@noone1996 said:

That awkward moment when a repulsor blast supposedly cannot hurt a character who was literally grunting out in pain from throat jabs by Spider-Man and who was getting hurt from Spider-Man using the black symbiote (which is an implied amp that added Venom strength to his) and punching him through buildings:

Gallery

Even if we accept a character, with a little bit above Captain America level stats(I just had a thread locked for putting Red Goblin against a team consisting of DP, Cap, Gambit, and someone else, so I don't think the general consensus is that their stats are near the same) being amped by the Carnage symbiote, no-selling Iron Man's repulsor rays as good writing, he's still not powerful enough to even scratch or dent Tony's suit. The guy couldn't even take down Venom or Spider-Man at the same time without massively struggling. He ended up escaping. (He was completely unphased by them, saying "Is that the best you got?" in the scan you posted. He also left because he "Had business to do" as he says, and in your scan also implies he's going to kill Peter's loved ones). His best strength feat is overpowering Parker. He does not have the offensive output to do anything to Iron Man and if he's supposedly capable of no-selling Iron Man's repulsors then he'll just throw him into the sun or space. By the way, this is the repulsor shot scan in question:

Jesus Christ are we in for a treat if Slott actually thinks Tony's tech is this unimpressive.

What you see happening here to Venom (only screaming out from pain by the brushback/indirect force of his repulsor blast), is something that Tony did to Ms. Marvel once by blasting Doomsday Man. Hilarious.

If Bleeding Edge is too much, we'll switch to his most current armor.

@stl9997: You completely misinterpreted what I was saying in the comments you bolded. Norman Osborn has near Captain America level stats. I was talking about BEFORE the red symbiote. Those stats were multiplied by the stats of Carnage since they merged. That type of stat merge should not allow Iron Man's even weakest repulsor ray to be no-sold. The second part you misread was what I was saying about Peter and Eddie. They weren't doing anything to the Red Goblin, yes, but he couldn't put them down either and struggled. If he's Iron Man tier then why weren't they casually one-shotted or even injured from his attacks? I was commenting on his offensive output which the best thing he did was break Parker's web shooter.

@stl9997: Also, your excuse for putting Red Goblin up against Iron Man is that when you made a thread about a bunch of incomparable level street levelers, it was locked? Really...? That'd be like if I put Thanos up against Colossus and Thing and since that got locked I decided to make a thread with Galactus going up against Thanos instead...

Should be noted that this is the same writer who thought Sp0ck with the Venom symbiote received Thor levels of stats since he could not be put down and actually drew blood from him. Yup and we're just accepting that more shenanigans with Slott and symbiosis is just suddenly good writing for some reason... Right...

Okay, that's my mistake, I had thought you meant that the Red Goblin's strength was that level. Also to respond to why they Eddie and Peter weren't put down, I'd say that, A. He was outnumbered plain and simple. Yeah, Tony would beat them, but they would not be defenseless against him and they are relatively quick with their reflex, even if Pete's spider sense is nullified. And you contradicted yourself. "They weren't doing anything to the Red Goblin, yes, but he couldn't put them down either and struggled.", They can't do nothing to him with him struggling at the same time.

I said that believing you were saying the Red Goblin's stats were comparable to Caps. I was only complaining, if what I had thought you said, was what you were actually saying. Again, that's my mistake, and I apologize.

I'm not saying it's good or even medioce writing, I'm purely talking feats related to this character in his only showing. I'm not saying I think he wins. You were absolutely right, if Tony got ahold of him, he very well could throw him into the sun, which is part of the reason I gave the Red Goblin prep, but did not give it to Tony, and put morals on. I think a bloodlusted Tony would ABSOLUTELY throw him into the sun if he got his hands on him, no questions asked. The question is, does a Red Goblin, who planted shards of the symbiote in Pete's loved ones and friends, with prep time have the means to defeat Tony with his morals on in a otherwise random encounter for him based on the feats, whether you find them credible or not. And I also, changed it to where if Bleeding Edge was too much, to have it as his current suit.

@stl9997: The Red Goblin was fighting Venom alone for a couple pages. Hell, even with the help of Stark security sonics and fire, they were still able to fight with one another and Brock was still not put down by Osborn. Venom was weakened by sonics and fire and he still managed to stay in the fight. When Spider-Man joined the fray, he hit both of them and they still weren't getting incapped. Doesn't matter if he was outnumbered. He was still hitting them to no avail. His offensive output is shit. I didn't contradict myself at all. They couldn't bypass his durability, but he couldn't really bypass theirs either. He is basically extremely durable, but that's it.

If you admit that it's probably not good writing then even a morals on Iron Man should still stomp a guy that was getting hurt by Spider-Man's throat jabs and being punched through buildings. I was saying IF Iron Man really couldn't hurt this guy (which is a huge if), he'd just resort to BFR which is still something he resorts to with morals.

@stl9997: Also my mistake for misinterpreting what you said about that other thread you made being locked.

LMFAO doesn't that make Red Goblin even more impressive in that case? Since he was casually overpowering Symbiote Spidey who Slott thinks is Thor+ level....?

jk

There's no evidence in a long term fight, he wouldn't have beat them both, but as stated on panel, he had stuff to do, AKA taking care of Peter's friends and loved ones. When The Red Goblin tagged them, they were visibly feeling his hits and being outmatched. Peter point blank stated that Red Goblin was too strong physically for him.

I'm not saying it's good or bad writing, I'm saying in this match his abilities should be consistent with was shown here.

@stl9997: He probably could beat them eventually and I was underselling his capabilities and how successful he was against them, but the fact that he struggled so greatly leads me to believe his offensive output is nowhere near what's needed to even scratch or dent even lower end Iron Man armors.

Red Goblin

Yeah I’m not convinced Red Goblin can do anything here. Iron man beats him up pretty badly.

Iron Man.