Rebels Maul and ROTS Kenobi vs Dooku and DD Vos

Where has it been debunked?

I've seen him say it in video. He flat out says ROTS Anakin is a 9 three times that I know of and once he says PSV... I don't remember if he says pre-suit Vader or just Vader. He says this when he talks about level 9 being a cheat. All you need to do is google Nic Gillard and... idk. Try NG and Interview Star Wars? It's def there. We've talked about it on here a few times. You might can just search this board for it, but I think it is this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2-iZNQrFBA

I'll give some sources for the other places he says just episode 3 in my following reply to richard96.

1) Anakin jumped entire levels between the movies, and by ROTS, he was unbeatable as Anakin. I'm not really sure where it is stated that he was an 8. Can you please source that PSV was an 8? I'll share what I have from sources below.

2) Also, can you please say where it is discussed that he wasn't a level 9 if not hindered? From what NG is saying below, I'd think that mental state doesn't have to do with ability. Maybe it has to do with performance.

Last question:

3) Where does it say that on the IH he was an 8?

Also and fyi, he did not when via rage amp. He did what any Sith does. He did use his rage, but he controlled it. Before he controlled it is when he faltered and began performing poorly.

Back to sources:

Nic Gillard, interview was conducted at ILM on January 14, 2004:

How would you say Obi-Wan evolves as a swordsman from Episode I to Episode III?

Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it's a huge jump from one level to another. It's not just about a style of fighting? It's mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he's gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn't gone beyond him mentally.

How has Anakin's style changed?

Anakin's style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he's unbeatable. He's far more dangerous than anybody in the universe.

Note above that NG say that Anakin changed between ep2 and ep 3. He knows he's unbeatable now.

Really, what Gillard said back in 2004 is backed up by the new canon reference book Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know (and vice versa) that I sourced above and that places Vader > Sidious with a lightsaber.

Agreed that PSV lost to Kenobi because of emotion but not because of ability, which is backed up by NG in the same interview and quoted below.

What's been your favorite fight sequence from Episodes I through III?

Without question, it's Obi-Wan versus Anakin in Episode III. One was the master, one was the pupil. One has replaced the other one, technically. Obi knows that Anakin is better than him, but because he taught him, he knows emotionally how he's going to behave.

The above is also backed up by old canon ROTS novelization, I think? At least one of the Vader novels, but I don't have it off hand. I have typed it out and sourced it a couple times on this board in the past. Sidious basically says that Vader should have won but lost because he was "between worlds" (I remember those words" and because he wasn't sure of himself. I think the novel was Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader.

The following is from the Homing Beacon, #126 , December 22, 2004 (SW newsletter), and this backs up what previous quotes and the new canon book as well:

How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground.

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. "Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is," says Gillard. "I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine."

Also a factor in Gillard's development is backstory of the Jedi warriors. The training lineage does show up in the crafting of duels and action. "There's a line of training through Darth Tyranus and Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin. You can follow that line, and there's an aggressive fault in that line. Mace isn't of that line, and that allows you to give him unique talents."

For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.

Note that Gillard says that HC's character increased from level 7 to level 9 between eps 2 and 3. NG says "On this [discussing ep.3] he's a level nine."

But again, in the videoed interview in the above link (if it's the correct one and should be), he says that it is Vader who is a level 9. This, however isn't mutually exclusive with ROTS Anakin being level 9.

Recap as of ROTS:

Kenobi - level 8

Sidious - 9

Yoda - 9

Anakin - 9

In that interview, he says that Windu is level 8 going on 9. He also says that Dooku and Maul are level 8.

@redheathen:

There's also and interview from 2011 where Gillard says Sids and Yoda are 8's...... But he still puts Anakin as a 9. He's meant to be on the level with or better than them.

Gillard also revealed a rating system used by Lucas and himself to define a Jedi’s relative skill, and how it reflects the difference between light and dark.

“There’s up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.” Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. “I’ve got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn’t really exist,” says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps. “It’s only a writing tool,” he says, “but it gives you the edge over it just being a fight.”

http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/star-wars/18028/star-wars-den-of-geek-goes-jedi-training-with-nick-gillard

Never in any material does he indicate Anakin is weaker in any form on Mustafar. Even if you make the argument he was. He's still a 9 at the time. There's no way around it.

Dooku takes Obi-Wan while Vos contends with Maul. Then the duo kill Maul.

1) Vos was never a scrub. He was a very strong Jedi in Republic. He seemed pretty close to Kenobi in TCW. LOL or at least my opinion.

2) Dark Disciple author may be a fanboy of Vos or he may not be, but either way, the novel is canon, thus so be it. :D

3) Vader's power itself did not "regress...notably." Nothing happened to his power. It was his mental state, which is addressed in my reply just previous to this one. Let me know what you think of that reply?

4) PSV existed during the duel on Mustafar. PSV would never have been in the same mental state dueling Tyranus as he was when fighting Kenobi, and this was evidenced on the "Invisible Hand." By no means was PSV < Anakin. Again, I discuss and source this in my previous reply.

5) Dooku has no Force edge. In the ROTS novelization, right before he is killed, Tyranus realizes that compared to Anakin, he is a joke. It literally says that. He realizes that Sidious always wanted Anakin.

6) Maul is totally broken by Rebels. It's hard to say how he will fare in this fight. I'm not sure if he'd be able to duel someone of these characters' caliber or if it is only Kenobi he would lose to. He hates the Sith equally as much as Jedi, so this is why it is difficult for me to say because I'm not sure if he is mentally up to the task. He is officially ranked above Dooku as a duelist in new canon reference book, SW AEYNtK. In old canon reference book, Beware the Sith, he was ranked above Tyranus in raw power and also in force ability but below him with a lightsaber; however the part about Tyranus outranking Maul in sabers was overwritten in the new canon reference book already mentioned...buuut still...(continued in next responses)

7) Vos IMO is not a terrible character in comics or novel. Maul is officially ranked above Dooku, and Maul, Kenobi, and Dooku are all officially ranked level eights. The ability of characters can vary within a level, so it is hard to say who falls where other than Maul > Dooku. I'd think that Vos would have to be on that level as well because it wasn't an accident or the will of the force that he defeated Tyranus in DD.

When I first posted my answer on this thread, I said Dooku and DD Vos > Rebels Maul and Kenobi. I did that because I automatically thought of Ben Kenobi killing Rebels Maul. I didn't think through Maul fighting other people and how it might play out. @alextheboss most likely has it right that DD Vos would lose to either team 1 member but only after a good fight. Augh, even then I don't know. He had learned lightning by then as well. I was so sure that Dooku and Vos would win until I tried to answer @emperordmb's dislike of Vos. Sorry I can't agree with you on that one, emperordmb! At least you two got me questioning my first answer, so you did well. The only problem is that now I can't come up with any definite answer at all. XD

I agree with you that he is a level 9 on Mustafar. I was arguing for that. I also argued that he was NOT weaker on Mustafar.

OK so he revised his system, but really, if you put numbers aside, he does not contradict himself because he said in 2004 that ROTS Anakin was unbeatable. That would put him above Sidious and Yoda, who were above Obi-Wan. As to Windu, he did say that Windu was between the Kenobi level and the Sidious and Yoda level. Granted he changed to them being on the same level, so you got me there. HOWEVER, :D , he does say that there is wiggle room on each level, which I quoted in a previous reply. ... ... ?????? :D

Thank you for the new source.

I bet it was just a time thing. It had been several years since he worked on ROTS and hasnt' worked on SW since. That, of course, is only supposition on my part, but it would make sense if we removed the numbers.

EDIT - I reread my post. It does come across a bit confusing so I moved the number one to the very beginning of the paragraph and then clarified that I was asking the other guy where it is stated that PSV was a level 8. Thanks for your help @greysentinel365.

@emperordmb

So let me get this straight, Obi-Wan gets thrashed by Dooku while he has Anakin at his side...

He wasn't getting trashed by Dooku actually. Far from it, he was the one causing Dooku pretty serious issues, which Dooku admitted himself inspite of the fact that Dooku is one of the most arrogant people in SW. He had to resort to a quick blindside to get rid of him, and he failed completely in bypassing his saber guard.

And again, he wasn't aiming to kill Dooku( he states this himself, he wanted to capture him), unlike Anakin, or Dooku who was definitely aiming to kill Obi Wan.

Then there is a source which says that Dooku expended most of his energy in taking Obi Wan down.

Lastly, Obi Wan was getting trashed around by Vader as well, barely even managing to survive when he was focusing all of his energies on just defending and getting thrown around like a toy with the force. It was only when he completely let go of all of his attachments and obligations, and all of his mental tensions that he started to actually compete in the fight, by not only defending himself solidly, but actually launching attacks of his own in instances.

Note, that said attachments and fears are a frame of mind, and would be present during the Dooku duel also. They wouldn't be directed at Dooku, but they would be present all the same. Releasing them completely is something he has done only in the Mustafar duel.

@redheathen: Quote or scan of Aeytk for Maul > Dooku?

Maul isn't above Dooku at all. The sheer fact that Vader is described as above Sidious in lightsaber ability suggests that these sourcebooks aren't very particular or even understanding of characters' power levels.

Besides, Jeremy Barlow has himself said that Dooku>Maul in force power, so there is that.

@lordofthelight: dooku failed in piercing Kenobi's guard with a saber because he didn't get sufficient opportunity to and was tiring himself vs Anakin as well. However this doesn't change that not only did he manage to break Kenobi's guard physically, but made a sound that made dooku ponder if he'd broken his neck. More impressively, Dooku managed to do this right after kicking Kenobi's superior several feet away holding him:

Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck. Wouldn't that be lovely?

No source, the movie included, depicts Dooku and Kenobi as equals with the blade, at best, it was inconclusive, at worst, Dooku was better. Semantics aside, Dooku was clearly the better swordsmen.

Whether you're willing to argue that Kenobi by the end of ROTS would have fared better is a different thing entirely. But as it is, emotional growth tends to take place over time, rather than be immediate. So when, and how much Kenobi grew from his confrontation against Anakin is a grey area.

@redheathen: my question was referring to Mustafar Anakin being a 9, not Anakin in general

@kbroskywalker

Dooku is better than Obi Wan with the blade. I was merely contesting the notion that he was somehow "stomped" or anything like that which clearly isn't true, moreso when an much inferior version of him has managed to press Dooku moderately when he switched styles.

dooku failed in piercing Kenobi's guard with a saber because he didn't get sufficient opportunity to and was tiring himself vs Anakin as well.

He had plenty of opportunity to, because Anakin was also getting removed at at times.

Dooku wasn't tired actually, and if you want to argue that, I too can argue that Obi Wan was also tired, because as Dooku was doing nothing at all, Obi Wan had to ride starships into the middle of a full blown battle, destroy opposition along the way, contend with his starship being damaged and the subsequent drama, fight through hordes of droids, and then he fought Dooku for the exact same amount of time that Dooku fought him. He confessed that he was "tiring", but then again, you can say that for either of his opponents since they fought him for the exact same amount of time, but we don't see their perspective.

Dooku can clearly augment his power, so don't bring up that "Dooku was old" argument. Unless you actually wish to take that "Dooku was tiring" thing at face value and prove that Dooku being old affects his fights rather significantly, something which has been disproved before?

Also, if Dooku can get actually tired in a mere playful bout, I wonder how would he fare in a full blown fight. Inconsistency, is what I would say.

Again, I have no doubt that Dooku is better. I am just suggesting that Obi Wan is quite close.

Whether you're willing to argue that Kenobi by the end of ROTS would have fared better is a different thing entirely. But as it is, emotional growth tends to take place over time, rather than be immediate. So when, and how much Kenobi grew from his confrontation against Anakin is a grey area.

ShootingNova gave quotes that make growth in the force from emotional growth as immediate as well, depending on the severity of the emotions in question.

I know it is a grey area. That doesn't change the fact that initially, Vader was beating Obi Wan worse than Anakin was beating Dooku, and after the emotional transformation, suddenly, Obi Wan is his near equal.

@lordofthelight: I think it's quite unaccurate that the majority looks at Anakin & Obi-Wan's Season 6 or RotS fight with Dooku to determine if the latter could win against Kenobi. I mean, we know that Obi-Wan is a more measured, controlled and defensive fighter who's at his best when he can draw out an opponent and deliver a deadly counter-attack. Yet when fighting alongside Anakin he's forced into a very different role - the one of the attacker - where instead of being able to monitor his opponent and react as necessary, he has to attack him in order to overwhelm him otherwise they're teamwork isn't effective. So the disparity between Anakin's solo performance against the Count and while fighting alongside Obi-Wan can easily be attributed to the fact that the latter has to adapt a very different fighting style in order to fit in while Anakin is far more natural in the role of the offensive fighter. Not to say that Anakin isn't superior to Obi-Wan, on the contrary, but in my opinion those fights don't hold much weight in a Dooku vs Obi-Wan matchup as in that case Obi-Wan would adapt a completely different approach which again would make it more difficult for the Count to land a Force attack (in both cases Obi-Wan got choked out by either Maul or Dooku he was the offensive fighter which left him open for an Force attack from his opponent).

@darthduelist9

Agreed. You can actually go a lot deeper into this.

The fact that people are at their "overall" best when they chose fighting styles most familiar and natural to them is actually a point I wanted to press, but considering the audience here, decided not to as most of it would fall on deaf ears anyways.

@lordofthelight: Yeah, agreed.

@lordofthelight: @darthduelist9:While this is probably true you must also take into account that Anakin and Obi-Wan teamwork is almost perfect and that they're very used to fighting this way due to working together for most of their lives. Dooku still landed a force attack on Obi-Wan despite having Anakin to deal with and almost perfect teamwork between Kenobi and Skywalker. The situation still favours Obi-Wan and Anakin far more than it does Dooku, leading me to believe that Dooku could still comfortably rag doll Obi-Wan in a 1v1 fight.

@hittheassasin: Again, that's what's my whole argument is about. The reason why Dooku was able to ragdoll Obi-Wan was because the latter needed to be the offensive fighter, we see how Dooku catches him mid swing when trying to attack Dooku. There's a second example were this happened, against Maul on Florrum. You know what's also similar? The fact that this again happened when Obi-Wan was the offensive fighter contrary to his normal, more controlled version.

@hittheassasin

Their teamwork is only good for fighting off armies of droids. Against force users, honestly, they have done better individually than they have done as a team. Literally every fight testifies that. They are considered a good team, the best team, only because they have secured the republic some grand victories against the CIS, not because they can suddenly fight off the Dark Lord of the Sith or something.

Fighting off force users require much different skill sets and abilities than fighting off armies of fodder. And Obi Wan and Anakin, are much better individually at the former than they are as a team.

And DD's point is correct.

Also, Dooku's attack was because Obi Wan was blindsided and caught off guard, by his own admission.

@lordofthelight:

Their teamwork is only good for fighting off armies of droids.

This passage of the ROTS Novel disagrees with you.

"Very well, then," the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku's head so fast it seemed he'd vanished. And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart. Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak. Dooku thought, What? He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure—that had been entirely too close—but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep— But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord un-:eremoniously to the floor.

-ROTS Novelisation

This is some great teamwork tbh.

Against force users, honestly, they have done better individually than they have done as a team.

The fight vs Dooku in the rots novel disagrees with you, as does Kenobi in AOTC.

Literally every fight testifies that. They are considered a good team, the best team, only because they have secured the republic some grand victories against the CIS, not because they can suddenly fight off the Dark Lord of the Sith or something.

And because they know each others lightsaber fighting styles and personalities off by heart as per the ROTS Novel, which would definitely be a great help in a 2V1.

Fighting off force users require much different skill sets and abilities than fighting off armies of fodder. And Obi Wan and Anakin, are much better individually at the former than they are as a team.

This is blatantly wrong. Obi-Wan has a reason for saying they should attack Dooku as a team you now. Also, they did great against Dooku with teamwork in ROTS.

And DD's point is correct.

Not really, considering Obi-Wan was clearly using his Soresu and fighting defensively in that fight, as confirmed by Dooku.

Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort,

-ROTS Novel

And here Dooku confirms Kenobi is using Soresu and fighting defensively.

he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well. Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

-ROTS Novel

Also, Dooku's attack was because Obi Wan was blindsided and caught off guard, by his own admission.

No, it was because it was too sudden, which just means Dooku is faster than Obi-Wan.

Besides, even if thats the case, Dooku was only using a small amount of power anyway, so...

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

-ROTS Novel

He could still rag doll Kenobi tbh, he has feats and accolades that suggest he can.

@hittheassasin

The fight vs Dooku in the rots novel disagrees with you, as does Kenobi in AOTC.

Literally every single example in TCW disagrees with you.

This is blatantly wrong. Obi-Wan has a reason for saying they should attack Dooku as a team you now. Also, they did great against Dooku with teamwork in ROTS.

As a team they would have greater power, than they would have individually against the Sith lord, obviously.

But they wouldn't even be close to their best as a team. You don't get maximum output from the players "individually" as a team, the efficiency is always reduced. And considering how terrible they have been while fighting off force users in so many examples, while they have actually done better on their own, no, my point stands.

Not really, considering Obi-Wan was clearly using his Soresu and fighting defensively in that fight, as confirmed by Dooku.

Too bad he suddenly launched an outright offensive at Dooku then.

Besides, even if thats the case, Dooku was only using a small amount of power anyway, so...

That incidence was when Obi Wan didn't even counter the attack.

He clearly has the capacity to block Dooku's attacks to a great extent, which he has shown before in TCW. He didn't block anything here at all.

There is no "force shield" protecting force users in canon, they have to actively block.

Yes, Dooku is considerably/substantially more powerful than Obi Wan, but if the latter actually uses the force to counter, he most definitely won't be fodderized.

I already posted it.

here it is again:

Nothing you say is officially debunked. Everything you say is from fan arguments only. It is canon regardless of what NG said, which doesn't really contradict anything (read below). You may not like the new canon reference book, but it is what it is: Official.

As I said to greysentinel above, NG's interview took place years after he last worked on SW. If we remove numbers, everything works out the same except Mace, which can kind of still be accounted for (read below).

#214 Edited by Richard96

Never seen this interview.... Well basically here Gillard lowered every character of one tier... It doesn't change anything except for the fact he said KF Vader is an 8 or a 9.... this is a good proof KF Vader > yoda or sidius saber wise, even if I find it very weird. However Vader could be a 8 or a 9 on mustafar, but what matters is his performance, and his performance while emotionally hindered was that of a obi's rough equal.

One question : in that interview did Gillard rank even dooku, maul or other characters aside the ones you have already posted?

THERE IS NOTHING that puts Vader as an 8 an Mustafar. It is not his ability that is hindered. It is his mindset. This is also backed up in a couple novels, which I have already sourced. His mindset affected his performance. You did finally understand that it seems because you repeated what I said, but yet you still try to rank him. Ranks are based on ability. If a person regularly screws up, then it obviously is not a one time issue it could be attributed to ability and skill, and the person's rank would be affected. If you want to use what NG says, then go back up and read my sourced quotes and you will see that NG addresses this. He still rates Vader / Anakin > Kenobi for combat, but he also says that Vader / Anakin < Kenobi mentally. It does not affect the level for this duel.

If he put Kenobi as a 7, then the other characters you mention will also be a 7. I know this is a new number system for him, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what he has done. He ended up putting Vader in the class by himself because he was the best, which I source above. There isn't anything that difficult to understand about it. The numbers just changed, but the placements did not.

2004: 1st system (along with other 2004 interview quotes) not taking level numbers into account:

ROTS Anakin & PSV

\/

Sidious and Yoda

\/

Windu

\/

Kenobi and Maul and Dooku (abilities etc can vary on a level)

2011: 2nd system not taking level numbers into account:

ROTS Anakin & PSV

\/

Sidious and Yoda and Windu (abilities etc can vary on a level)

\/

Kenobi ( based on what we already know, Maul and Dooku should go here because nothing else has really changed).

2015: OFFICIAL CANON:

Vader

\/

Sidious

\/

Maul

\/

Tyrnaus

\/

Ventress

^^^ There is no reason that Tyranus and Maul can't be on the same level because we know that those can vary within a level.

All three sources are reconcilable unless you just want to nitpick for the sake of nitpicking, and even then, there truly is no basis for saying that there is a difference. NG did nothing except mess up the level numbers, and I think it is this simple thing of forgetting.

1. In 2004 (published on the SW official website which I linked above) , he says that there is no level 10.
2. There were officially nine levels, again also published on the SW official website.
3. He gives rankings as I posted above in 2004.
4. In 2011, still old canon time period, NG gives an interview. This interview is not published on the Star Wars website.
5. 2011 NG tells denofgeeks that there are X number of levels. Anakin is at the top level. Next level down is Sidious and Yoda, etc, as I posted above.

NG contradicted himself with numbers only. The placements of individuals remained the same except for Windu, which I think can still be accounted for if we take NG's earlier interviews into account (and officially pubbed on SW dot com) that abilities can vary on a level. We have the official and original levels published on the official Star Wars website. There is no overall issue nor any real contradiction. The dude just forgot the numbers. Nothing more than that. He remembered the substance, which is what matters.

@redheathen:

1) Vos was never a scrub. He was a very strong Jedi in Republic. He seemed pretty close to Kenobi in TCW. LOL or at least my opinion.

I would place him around Kit Fisto to Plo Koon level, which would be right below Kenobi.

2) Dark Disciple author may be a fanboy of Vos or he may not be, but either way, the novel is canon, thus so be it. :D

True, lol. Though the author of son of dathomir said he thought Maul would beat Dooku.

3) Vader's power itself did not "regress...notably." Nothing happened to his power. It was his mental state, which is addressed in my reply just previous to this one. Let me know what you think of that reply?

I agree his power didn't regress notably. He would of noticed if it did, however he thought he was stronger than ever. He lost because he was careless, and mentally behind Kenobi (confirmed by people who worked on the movie), not because he got weaker.

4) PSV existed during the duel on Mustafar. PSV would never have been in the same mental state dueling Tyranus as he was when fighting Kenobi, and this was evidenced on the "Invisible Hand." By no means was PSV < Anakin. Again, I discuss and source this in my previous reply.

I don't think I said he was. If anything you are just proving how good Kenobi was, which is my point.

5) Dooku has no Force edge. In the ROTS novelization, right before he is killed, Tyranus realizes that compared to Anakin, he is a joke. It literally says that. He realizes that Sidious always wanted Anakin.

How does that have to do with a force edge on Kenobi?

6) Maul is totally broken by Rebels. It's hard to say how he will fare in this fight. I'm not sure if he'd be able to duel someone of these characters' caliber or if it is only Kenobi he would lose to. He hates the Sith equally as much as Jedi, so this is why it is difficult for me to say because I'm not sure if he is mentally up to the task.

Ya, this pretty much depends on how you stack Rebels Maul. Imo if he is at least close to his former self he should beat Vos. And I think he is looking how well he did against the inquisitors. If Rebels Maul was focused and mentally balanced he would be a forced to be reckoned with.

He is officially ranked above Dooku as a duelist in new canon reference book, SW AEYNtK. In old canon reference book, Beware the Sith, he was ranked above Tyranus in raw power and also in force ability but below him with a lightsaber; however the part about Tyranus outranking Maul in sabers was overwritten in the new canon reference book already mentioned...buuut still...(continued in next responses)

But that book also says Vader>Sidiouis, which is clearly false.

7) Vos IMO is not a terrible character in comics or novel. Maul is officially ranked above Dooku, and Maul, Kenobi, and Dooku are all officially ranked level eights. The ability of characters can vary within a level, so it is hard to say who falls where other than Maul > Dooku. I'd think that Vos would have to be on that level as well because it wasn't an accident or the will of the force that he defeated Tyranus in DD.

Maybe he was a low eight. Didn't Ventress have to sacrifice herself to save Vos from Dooku? I think if they fought 10 times Dooku would win a majority over Vos.

When I first posted my answer on this thread, I said Dooku and DD Vos > Rebels Maul and Kenobi. I did that because I automatically thought of Ben Kenobi killing Rebels Maul. I didn't think through Maul fighting other people and how it might play out. @alextheboss most likely has it right that DD Vos would lose to either team 1 member but only after a good fight. Augh, even then I don't know.

Ya, I think this is a very close fight, and I think both teams would take at least a few rounds.

He had learned lightning by then as well.

Who did?

1. Almost sounds good to me. I would go higher, though. Your very last response to me was in number 7 asking who learned lightning. It was Vos, but I'm sure as you know, it wasn't the lightning we associate with Sith Lords. But he did it none the less! :D I honestly thought I had deleted that statement thinking it wouldn't matter too much.
2. nothing to add
3. I added a source for that from the WBTM (SW website) in a previous post, if you want it.
4. Sorry for that then.
5. I was replying to your comment about them as a team: "If team 2 wins I think it will because of Dooku's force edge."
6. I agree with you about Maul if he was a balanced person. If that was the case, then I'd say that team one wins, no question. Considering he is not, ...lol, again, I am stumped on this one. Like you say in number 7, this is a very close fight. -- a very good fight that I would pay to see.
   As to Vader > Sidious as clearly false, I defer to what is stated in definitive terms and absolutes, which is what the book does. You (and many others) and I are not going to agree on this one. I understand that some of you rely on feats and whatnot, so... to each their own, I guess. :)
7. OKAY AS TO THE LAST FIGHT OF Dark Disciple! LOL Once and for all, I hope:
   A. Vos defeated Dooku on Dooku's ship fair and square. I posted the text in a previous post.
   B. The last fight on Christophsis was not a duel. Ventress just learned that Vos was a Dark Lord, the same as Dooku, and was going to help Dooku kill Sidious. The truth was that Vos lied to himself thinking he could handle the dark side and use Tyranus to find out who the Sith Master was, but he did succumb to the dark side. Asajj made the choice to leave Vos. Vos was very scared. The word "fear" was used to describe how he felt about her making her choice. The emotional Vos was talking to Asajj with his back to Dooku when she used the Force to push Vos away because Dooku unleashed very powerful force lightning. Vos leaped at Dooku and in three strides had his blade against Tyranus' neck. Ventress talked Quinlan out of killing Dooku.
   There never was a duel. It doesn't matter if anyone won or lost because they were all injured, but yes, Ventress did push Vos out of the way when Dooku cast lightning on Vos from behind his back. He had the mental fortitude to turn back to the light side, but granted it was because of Ventress' love for him.
   
   Here is the Christophsis lightning scene:

Violently, she shoved Vos away, putting the Force into the movement so powerfully that he was hurled across the room. As he struck the wall, he heard a terrifyingly familiar sound: the sizzle and crackle of Force lightning.

Dooku stood, his teeth bared in a savage snarl of victory. Ventress was caught in the most violent bolts of Force lightning Vos had ever seen. They danced and crackled about her hungrily, almost like living creatures. Her body spasmed and her face contorted into a mask of absolute agony. Blood trickled from her ears, eyes, and nose.

"Asajj!" Vos cried, leaping between Ventress and Dooku. He activated his lightsaber, deflecting the Force lightning back onto Dooku. The count's eyes widened in comprehension a split second before his own weapon turned on him, disloyal, as things of the dark always were. Dooku was flung back and lay on the ground, screaming and trembling, then lying still as the bolts faded.

Ventress lay unmoving on the floor. Her clothes-and her body itself-emitted wisps of smoke. "No," Vos moaned. She was breathing, but her pulse was thready and she was still, so terribly still. "Asajj...no...no...!"

Fury, as intense and primal as the bolts that had nearly killed her, shuddered through him, and the world went red. Vos threw back his head and voiced his rage, whirling on the count as he lay, shivering and gasping for breath, on the stone floor.

Three strides brought Vos to Count Dooku. He pressed the humming blade close to Dooku's neck.

"Do...it," rasped Dooku. Impossibly, he was smiling. "The lightning wasn't...for her. It was for you. She just...got in the way. Go on. Take...your revenge!"

Vos's heart shook his body with its pounding, its aching, its demands. His gaze flickered to Ventress, lying so terrifyingly motionless. His vision blurred. It took him a moment to realize that tears were falling down his face in a river of pain. The dark, rage-filled tide inside him receded, leaving in his heart only the truth of the tears. The count still smiled, still anticipated the final step that would turn Vos irrevocably to the dark side.

"I am not your kind," Vos said, his voice thick. "I do not feed off vengeance." Truth was quiet. It did not need to shout or to demand. It simply existed. "I am a Jedi."

WAIT!

I just realized that the novel says:

"Dooku stood, his teeth bared in a savage snarl of victory."

If Dooku meant to kill Vos, then why is he victorious, unless...

Perhaps he meant to kill Asajj and not Vos:

1. Vos had his back to Dooku
2. Vos could not see Dooku
3. Dooku would have known that Vos couldn't see him
4. Ventress could see Dooku
5. Dooku would have known that Ventress could see him

Supposition starts with:

1. Dooku knows that Ventress cares about Vos, and therefore
2. Ventress would push Vos out of the way so he would not get hurt

The reason Dooku would do this:

1. Dooku also know that Vos loves Ventress
2. Sith don't love
3. Sith sacrifice everything to the Dark Side
4. To be Sith, one must give in to rage, hatred, etc
5. Dooku wants Vos with him

There is already precedent in SW that, to become a Sith, people have given up their loves. Also, there is precedence of destroying something that a potential apprentice cares about in order to get them to finally turn to the dark side. Would it not be logical that Tyranus wanted to kill Ventress in order to shove Vos that much further into the dark side? Love is a weakness to the Sith, compassion, etc. This was probably the last step needed for Quinlan because he was already given to the dark side enough to have yellow eyes.

Also, Dooku wants Vos on his side to kill Sidious. When Asajj learned this, she said that he said this same thing to her, to which he replied that she just "flirted" with the dark side while "Vos is different. He was born for the darkness."

============

BTW, getting back to rankings, and this also ties in with the above:

1. Vos defeated Ventress in a Force / saber duel earlier in the book, although I think there can be argument that they were close to evenly matched, and those parts will be underlined.
   "Even though she retreated deliberately, Vos's attack demanded every bit of her focus. He seemed to grow stronger, his attacks more powerful, while Ventress had to draw on everything she had simply to stay alive.

   Vos barely even seemed to need to breathe,..."
   ...
   "Hope surged in her as she realized that they were close to the exit. The emotion made her careless; she found herself suddenly lifted and flung backward out the door.

   Ventress sailed through the air for several meters, landing hard and awkwardly, and for a wild moment was unable to rise."

2. In the following quote (also given above), we learn that Dooku prefers Vos over Ventress:
   ""Vos is different [from Ventress]. He was born for the darkness."

Supposition and ABC logic only, it seems that if Vos can defeat Dooku, defeat Ventress, and Dooku prefers Vos over Ventress, then we can assert that Vos >/= Ventress, which would rank him pretty high. Most people would tier Ventress with Kenobi or at least put her on the same level even if that level can have varying abilities and strength. This might be a somewhat argument to put Vos on Kenobi's level. At least here we have some actual quotes instead of guessing or like/ dislike of the character.

@redheathen:

As to Vader > Sidious as clearly false, I defer to what is stated in definitive terms and absolutes, which is what the book does. You (and many others) and I are not going to agree on this one. I understand that some of you rely on feats and whatnot, so... to each their own, I guess. :)

I mean Vader being stale mated by Ben, letting ep 5 Luke land a hit on him, and losing to ep 6 Luke are all things that most likely wouldn't happen to Palpatine. And beating Mace and 3 other masters at the same time, beating Maul and Savage while laughing, and stalemating Yoda are all things Vader couldn't do, or at least hasn't shown he could do. I could see an argument that Vader is better against blaster fire though.

I can't really say that I consistently find consistency in the Star Wars universe - canon or otherwise. =D

1. It is canon. Disney canon, all of it, is approved through the Story Group from what I understand. Even if it is not, it is all equal footing as long as it is officially published. It's not even tiered anymore. It doesn't matter if the authors understand character power levels because it is approved and is supposedly consistent with the rest of new canon, which is a debate we are not currently engaged in.
2. I'm not sure of anywhere in new canon that contradicts Maul over Tyranus, and
3. What Barlow says is his own opinion, which he also stated. What Barlow says is his opinion was not conveyed in Son of Dathomir, and he also went on to say that Maul would defeat Tyranus more times than not, and
4. Barlow's personal opinion contradicts canon.

Exams are coming, so I can only post in moderation, not make huge walls of text.

And besides, the guy is a pathetic joke, without a shred of evidence that he has a functioning brain in his head. I really don't think I am going to waste my time debunking the arguments of the guy, not when the conversation goes with me addressing, countering and tearing apart each and every one of his arguments and his counter" No, I don't like it. I am going to say random nonsense and not going to even listen to what you have said". Tantamount to a child closing his ears and yelling, when told something he doesn't like.

Yeah, no matter what you do, he will keep posting. Let him. Looking at his posts, one doesn't need to be a genius to realize that the guy is a nutcase.

@kbroskywalker

^^^^you don't see that on cv, that's not even the top of the kmc bunch

I have seen much, much better arguments on CV. I am comparing of course, to DS's argument. It was much, much worse off than Az's, which was actually pretty good.

Are you seriously going to rate KMC over CV? With people like AP and SWL on the loose. You have a bunch of people over there speaking all kinds of nonsense, having seriously asinine opinions( by my perspective) and even that may be fine, but the worst thing is, the arguments they use are completely out of context. Ripping apart and manipulating information to suit their narrative, not to mention, pathetically denying things because they can't handle it. Before I give any new feat I want to share publicly, I make sure to PM at least 4 or 5 people, and get their opinions on it. To make sure that my interpretation of it is not completely flawed( although, a bit of it is unavoidable).

They? It's like the whole lot of them suffers from severe cognitive dissonance, and an inability to give way. Failure for their argument to succeed means an inevitable grasping at straws until the argument saturates. What's more, if any new angle is considered, it is immediately classified as retarded and discarded. That is of course, if it goes against their fan-favorites.

I don't deny that there are good debaters like Az, DMB and occasionally DA66, but there are a pathetic few of them. I also don't deny that standards on CV have declined, but I fully agree with decaf_wizard's statements.

A guy who has the HoT as of Act 3 an Obi Wan+ "duelist"( personally, even at his prime, he isn't an Obi Wan+ force user, let alone a duelist), lol, is not at all liable to berate me, on why DE Sidious cannot beat Yoda, Plagueis, and Mace together, when solid arguments have been put forward for Sidious's power progression over the decades and when two of his enemies are basically fodder to him.

To me, if x=arrogant+dumb, it mostly seems to be a contest of people trying continuously to raise their x's.

LOL WOW OKAY MAN! lol chill. XD

We all know that canon is canon. If the official canon books that are reviewed and okayed for publishing are pathetic and unreliable, then how can we count on any other books? @richard96 would you please tell me how to determine whether or not a canon book is reliable and not pathetic?

Also, how do we know when to use creator quotes when the creator describes the fight that we see in the movies but what he/she says isn't really what you say?

In addition to that. how do I know which forum poster to trust? How do I determine who is a fanboy so I don't believe anything that they say?

Thank you for all your help.

Can you please tell me when Oppress, post majick, was outright defeated by Ventress on her own? or what are you talking about?

I do agree that Savage isn't as strong as Anakin. That's a wee bit far fetched.

I'm still not in the fan club of push/ hurling a person is rag dolling and thus the perpetrator is stronger than the victim. It happens between equally matched opponents and sometimes a weaker opponent can get the upperhand on his / her better. I'm not sure if this is a reliable took, especially when in the same fight the victim (for lack of better word) shows better abilities or even wins the fight.

All I said, is Oppress fails to do to Ventress with his strength what he does to Dooku who has repeatedly shown he's stronger than Ventress with augmentation.

Team 2. Uncertain of how big of a majority they will take though,

Dooku solos

0-0

What have you done?

@kbroskywalker: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Post count on my profile comes up with 293 results, lol.

Your lies won't work here scrub.

I'm watching you (O)-(O)

Seizing someone and hurling them isn't the same as simply pushing them. Dooku gripped and threw Vos across the room which is what we consider ragdolling someone:

Dooku let himself fall, seizing Vos in the Force and hurling him across the room.

Then, after, he flips Vos backwards:

made a pulling motion with his other hand, and Vos was flipped backward.

If this is ragdolling:

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=1m47s

Then Dooku ragdolled Vos

I'm not sure if this is a reliable took, especially when in the same fight the victim (for lack of better word) shows better abilities or even wins the fight.

You can't use the outcome of a battle to try and invalidate the explanation of how that outcome was achieved:

Dooku might have been a master of technique, but Vos's characteristic unpredictability-quite possibly even to himself-often gave him the edge.

Vos won here because he was unpredictable, not because he's better. That this would apply to Maul, whose style operates on unpredictability, or Kenobi, whose handled opponents characterized by unpredictability(Maul/Grevious) just fine is an assumption.

It's fair if you think a stylistic edge isn't sufficient to make up for the gap between how vos performed and how Kenobi performed against Dooku(which I'm inclined to agree with). But your argument can't just be based on Vos>Dooku as that wasn't the reason he won.

There was inconsistency in the EU which is what Disney is trying to address. I've given an intelligent reply to the NG numbering system and then even followed up with Canon back up for it. Did you read that? Either way, the canon reference book sorts out any issues.

ALSO, and no arguing about this (or if so then it's only opinion), Maul was Sidious' apprentice meant to replace him. Sidious, the most powerful Sith in history chose Maul out of all the beings in the galaxy. Sidious, who could have begun turning a Jedi to his will but didn't. The same Sith master who says that Tyranus was a placeholder. The same one who said Maul was a great loss.

Regardless of feats and comparing them, canon lists Maul as one of the most efficiently trained and deadliest Sith in the entire history of the Order, and this would have been limited to him being, at most, the age of 22. Old canon and new canon alike have tremendous accolades of Maul as a Sith, and this was him at a much younger age than Tyranus. There was a reason that Sidious said that Maul was the thing he valued most. Feats ... whatever. Canon is what canon is: the reality of the SW universe.

Disney placed Maul > Dooku with a lightsaber, and to me, this goes to show that:

1. Feats in stories don't necessarily fully explain a character and their abilities, powers, and skill, and
2. Feats in stories aren't the number one measuring stick to be used in assessing such.

Dooku still solos

This blatant misinformation has become repetitive, but nevertheless it is good stuff to debunk.

@richard96:

the official AOTC novel said yoda deflected Dooku's lighting FAR FROM EASILY ( exact novel's words )

This can easily be attributed to the fact Yoda didn't exactly know how powerful Dooku was at this point, and didn't really know what to expect given he was "far more settled" in his defensive posture, indicating that now he knew what to expect and deflected the Lightning without difficulty. The movie also shows how Yoda exerted little effort to deflect and redirect the Lightning. So basically, it's the movie and LoE vs the novel, which can be attributed to the above reasons. Movie and LoE together hold more weight than the novel. Yoda had, at best, mild difficulty deflecting Dooku's Lightning, when holding back a considerable portion of his power.

Nick Gillard, the supreme saber authority, stated that both Tpm maul and Dooku are tier 8, but there is a great difference between the numbers themselves. Obviously Gillard used Dooku and maul as examples of how there can be a great difference between the numbers themselves.

The difference between TPM Maul and Dooku is nowhere near large, lmao. A visual representation of Gillard's tiers:

We can clearly see the difference between Dooku and Maul isn't huge. Heck, the difference between Dooku and Windu is smaller than the one between Dooku and Maul. Dooku>>TPM Maul is already laughable in a feat comparison, and this just puts the nail in the coffin.

Maul was legitimately hard presssd by qui gon

Wrong.

and had issues with tpm kenobi,

*a massively rage-amped TPM Kenobi. Normal TPM Kenobi could barely even parry Maul's strikes when Qui-Gon was there.

Dooku nonchalantly beat a superior version of Obi while TOYING.

Dooku wasn't toying at all, that's pure speculation, in fact he wasn't toying given he was working furiously:

Obi-Wan steadied himself and shifted his lightsaber from hand to hand, getting a better grip on it. Then he exploded into motion, coming on again fiercely, his blue lightsaber flashing all about. He kept a better measure of his cuts this time, though, reversing his angle often, turning a wide slash into a sudden thrust, and he soon had Dooku backing, the red blade working furiously to keep Obi-Wan at bay.

Attack of the Clones junior novel

And he didn't easily defeat Kenobi at all.

This is pure speculation. We don't know how much powerful maul could really become,

Actually, we do have some ideas:

Of all the uncounted trillions of sentient beings that populated the Galaxy, only one was deserving of respect: Darth Sidious. The man who dared to dream of conquering not just a world or star system, but an entire Galaxy. The man who had taken the young Maul from a backwater planet and raised him to be his successor. He owed Darth Sidious everything.

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

The implications of this possibility made Maul catch his breath. For all Darth Sidious’s talk of his role as his apprentice and eventual successor, Maul still felt precious little connection to the Sith grand plan for the galaxy and his place within it. At the Dark Lord’s command, he’d spent years training on Orsis and then on Coruscant in the LiMerge Building, enduring years of privation and the harshest imaginable discipline while awaiting his Master’s visits.

Maul: Lockdown

This means that Maul, at his full potential, would become ROTS Sidious+ level. Which is miles above Dooku.

in fact he was three shotted by old Obi,

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/battle-misconceptions-maul-vs-old-ben-kenobi-1881378/#

Maul, in his long career as a sith, hasn't even learned how to fire Sith lighting, a basic sith ability.

Actually:

Make of this what you will.

Finally, my favorite. Destroying filthy Maul lowballing.

So let's ignore Dooku clowning a superior version of a guy who gave trouble to maul.

So let's ignore the fact non-rage amped TPM Kenobi was getting owned by Maul even with Qui-Gon for backup, let's ignore Dooku having serious issues with AOTC Kenobi, and let's ignore Maul being pre-prime as of TPM.

Let's ignore TCW Maul fighting evenly with an inferior version of a guy who, while having anakin's help, was beaten by Dooku.

Let's ignore TCW Maul actaually having the upper hand against TCW Kenobi, whose inferior version gave Dooku serious issues, and let's ignore the fact that the Oba Diah fight was a terrible outliar, given a far inferior duo pressed Dooku to the point where the Count only held a negligble advantage.

TCW S4 Anakin, who is far inferior to TCW S6 Anakin inidvidually nearly killed Dooku.

AOTC Anakin and Kenobi, far below their S6 selves individually gave Dooku serious issues.

Oba Diah is an outliar that should never be brought up.

Let's ignore Dooku stalemating a team far, far superior of the one who lightly wounded TPM Maul and gave him some issues.

Let's ignore the fact that the team only landed hits on Maul's clothes (saber hits would have seriously injured Maul and left him vulnerable) and that Dooku stalemating those guys was an outliar.

Let's ignore Dooku held his own against yoda while Maul was stomped by a toying sidius,

Let's ignore the fact that a massively holding back Yoda mopped the floor with a rage amped Dooku on Geonosis, and that an injured Yoda quickly beat an amped Dooku once he didn't hold back, and that injured Yoda could have annihilated amped Dooku. Let's also ignore the canonically established fact Sidious>Yoda.