Rebels Maul and ROTS Kenobi vs Dooku and DD Vos

@darthant66: You sush.

@darthant66

I am not referring to you, lol.

Generally speaking, the ratio is a lot higher than on CV.

That may have changed recently. But even months ago, it was horrible.

I have been regularly stalking KMC since February last year. What I saw then, was, needless to say, pretty bad.

It didn't improve over the months. I never debated there, but I did see arguments on it at least. In fact, I never joined KMC because of this explicit reason. At least, there is a chance for the average viner to be convinced and for the arguments to at least progress.

In recent months I haven't even seen it because honestly, I didn't think anything would change. But from the looks of it, CV users have migrated there, which might have made it better.

CV users don't articulate arguments. They just give opinions and leave. Mostly. The rare few like us get into debating.

@lordofthelight: yea, kmc's has the quality debaters now, you should join us, Kenobi's been starting to struggle here, I need back up

anyway...

which team wins

@thesithmaster:

Anakin trounced Dooku, yeah, but Anakin is also canonically superior to Kenobi.

Anakin was only marginally better than Kenobi. Yoda had full confidence that Obi-wan could win.

And no, Kenobi didn't hold up much better.

The 5 minute epic lightsaber fight says otherwise.

Anakin had the form advantage over Dooku, Kenobi had the form advantage over him not to mention the benefit of knowing his style inside out.

Yes, I agree this is one of the reasons Kenobi did so much better than Dooku, but Kenobi did a lot better than Dooku, not just a little. Imo ROTS Kenobi is almost equals with Dooku in sabers, but his stamina would give him the win. However Dooku's weakness is his stamina and low physical strenght, he would have major problems breaking through Kenobi's guard before getting tired.

Anakin was also hindered, more so than Kenobi.

There are also official statements saying knightfall Anakin was stronger than before. Not to mention a couple months went by and both had major duels since Dooku, so both Anakin and Kenobi would probably be a bit better than they were at the begging of the movie anyways.

Even then, the ROTS novel depicts Kenobi desperate early on in the fight and being driven back for most of the fight.

Yes, he was like Dooku against Anakin, but he could hold out longer.

Even in the end, Anakin lost due to mistiming a jump. Their performances vs Anakin are not indicators of Kenobi's superiority.

I agree. Kenobi is definitely not superior to Anakin, his performance was just good enough to lead me to believe that Dooku wouldn't be able to get through his defenses if Anakin couldn't.

And Dooku himself has better feats- his accolades are also better- and his form, Makashi, is good for dealing with Kenobi's form, Soresu.

He doesn't really have better saber feats than ROTS Kenobi. Kenobi took Greivous out in about 30 seconds in the dueling phase of their fight, and Dooku has had some problems with Grievous before. Kenobi also did much better against Anakin.

In a all out fight, yes Dooku has better feats, but that is because of his major force and experience advantage. In pure physicals he really doesn't have better feats than ROTS Kenobi.

@kbroskywalker

yea, kmc's has the quality debaters now, you should join us, Kenobi's been starting to struggle here, I need back up

Quality debaters you say?

Nope, I don't think so. Most of old KMC users are hanging around, and the presence of a scant few good debaters doesn't change it in any significant way.

Not to mention, most of it are to and fro battles on ToR vs PT, so I don't really care about that either.

Obi Wan has always struggled even on CV. Him struggling on a site like KMC? Obviously. And there is little I can do about it because I can present arguments, not telepathically change people's minds. There is also not much I can do when some don't accept facts point blank.

I don't know. I don't go near Rebels Maul, so let's make this in two cases:

1. If Maul is around his former self: He is a ragdoll for Dooku and Vos can give him a serious fight. "ROTS" Obi Wan can't carry the team especially as Dooku won't have much difficulty in beating him either.

2. If Maul is near Dooku level: He keeps Dooku occupied with his aggressive style for as long as it takes, and might even beat him. Obi Wan beats Vos. Team 1 wins.

@lordofthelight:

Quality debaters you say?

Nope, I don't think so. Most of old KMC users are hanging around, and the presence of a scant few good debaters doesn't change it in any significant way.

Not to mention, most of it are to and fro battles on ToR vs PT, so I don't really care about that either.

Pull up bro, things have changed. At the least, pull up on the hangout link I gave you in pm.

And check out this:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=639946&pagenumber=6

^^^^you don't see that on cv, that's not even the top of the kmc bunch

Obi Wan has always struggled even on CV. Him struggling on a site like KMC? Obviously. And there is little I can do about it because I can present arguments, not telepathically change people's minds. There is also not much I can do when some don't accept facts point blank.

Obi-Wan isn't struggling on cv at all anymore. A week ago he was>arcann and az was pushing for him being effin valk level. He might be getting overrated here tbh now. KMC debaters are like any other, good arguments will give him a boost. I'd imagine you have more of a shot making a difference there then roasting sithmaster for the millionth time. Honestly he was high as fck onkmc too until the megalith feat got a takedown.

1. If Maul is around his former self: He is a ragdoll for Dooku and Vos can give him a serious fight. "ROTS" Obi Wan can't carry the team especially as Dooku won't have much difficulty in beating him either.

2. If Maul is near Dooku level: He keeps Dooku occupied with his aggressive style for as long as it takes, and might even beat him. Obi Wan beats Vos. Team 1 wins.

food for thought, in canon, vos has better feats than Kenobi and his performance vs dooku was better than Kenobi's despite both having favorable circumstances. Why is Kenobi>vos?

@kbroskywalker

Obi-Wan isn't struggling on cv at all anymore. A week ago he was>arcann and az was pushing for him being effin valk level. He might be getting overrated here tbh now. KMC debaters are like any other, good arguments will give him a boost. I'd imagine you have more of a shot making a difference there then roasting sithmaster for the millionth time. Honestly he was high as fck onkmc too until the megalith feat got a takedown.

Valk level? WTH? Lol, even if the megaliths were tens of kilometers long, he wouldn't be Valk level.

That said, I took care of DMB's argument against the megalith feat as well here, so no issues.

food for thought, in canon, vos has better feats than Kenobi and his performance vs dooku was better than Kenobi's despite both having favorable circumstances. Why is Kenobi>vos?

1. Vos was enraged. It is noted many times that he was consumed by the dark side for quite some time. A normal Vos at the start got served.

2. Vos has the advantage of stylistic unpredictability( or at least, that was how the novel chose to make Dooku a weakness), whereas, Obi Wan's biggest strength lies grounded in simplicity. And even then, see what he made of Dooku in the ROTS Novel. Dooku only took him out with a physical strike, and otherwise was being blinded by his sheer speed alone, to the extent that he "didn't dare try a strike". I needn't remind you that even AoTC Obi Wan can press Dooku once he strays from conventionality.

3. Obi Wan's offense doesn't work against someone like Dooku. He doesn't have a way to end the fight other than tire Dooku out. He works best against people like Maul( to note, he actually made Maul's leg whine with sheer offense in their solo fight on Florrum, which he was winning) and Vader. Extremely skilled physical powerhouses, but with an extremely aggressive approach. Not someone like Dooku whose style is based on economical fluidity and searching and exploiting gaps in the opponent's defenses with a measured style, specifically designed for lightsaber to lightaber combat.

Obi Wan didn't have favorable circumstances. Heck, that wasn't even his prime( which is arguably post Mustafar, ignoring Ben).

@lordofthelight:

Valk level? WTH? Lol, even if the megaliths were tens of kilometers long, he wouldn't be Valk level.

That said, I took care of DMB's argument against the megalith feat as well here, so no issues.

1. Kenobi vs Bane was where it came up.

2.Link me to where you beat dmb? Because if it was pm session, I disagree and it's not like you've actually posted this to dmb

anyhow, join hangouts

for Kenobi vs vos....

1. vos wasn't at all amped in the final fight, he was focused, like Kenobi vs maul and oppress

2. that doesn't apply to canon and anyway dooku was only "perhaps" more skilled disregarding stylistic edges irrc

3. dpesn't apply to canon

4. He had someone in yoda's range helping him, so nah, he had favorable circumstances. and the pre-prime part doesn't apply to canon

@lordofthelight:

1. If Maul is around his former self: He is a ragdoll for Dooku

Dooku has never shown that he could rag doll Maul.

@kbroskywalker

1. Kenobi vs Bane was where it came up.

2.Link me to where you beat dmb? Because if it was pm session, I disagree and it's not like you've actually posted this to dmb

Why not? Wasn't it stated that the megaliths were mountain level in height? That they literally climbed up to the sky?

The 500 m thing may not be true, but being "mountain level" more than makes up for it.

1. vos wasn't at all amped in the final fight, he was focused, like Kenobi vs maul and oppress

Did you read DD? Vos had gone over to the dark side. He had been gone over for quite some time. He came out of it, at the end of DD.

All of his feats are when he is essentially a Dark Jedi. It's not a rage amp, he had voluntarily gone over. Temporarily of course. When he would come out of it and become a pure Jedi again, obviously he would lose a lot of power.

2. that doesn't apply to canon and anyway dooku was only "perhaps" more skilled disregarding stylistic edges irrc

In canon, a vastly pre-prime Obi Wan gave a semi-decent fight to Dooku. And in the movie, he was only taken out by force choke. So nothing is decisive here.

3. dpesn't apply to canon

4. He had someone in yoda's range helping him, so nah, he had favorable circumstances. and the pre-prime part doesn't apply to canon

Anakin isn't remotely close to Yoda in canon.

Also, Anakin and Obi Wan as a team against force users are overrated. You see plenty of examples of that in TCW. They might be the best Jedi duo for confronting armies, but not so much for force users.

This has definitely taken an interesting turn. I suggest, LotL, that you give into your hate and finish Sithmaster once and for all.

@alextheboss

Anakin was only marginally better than Kenobi. Yoda had full confidence that Obi-wan could win.

Either Yoda is retarded or it's because Obi trained Anakin and knows his fighting style off by heart and because Yoda is just confident in Kenobi abilities. Probably the latter. It's certainly not because he knows Obi to be equal to Anakin.

The 5 minute epic lightsaber fight says otherwise.

You act like Dooku was stomped by Anakin, lol. Dooku was winning until Anakin got rage-amped and could effortlessly match Anakin's attacks when the latter wasn't rage-amped.

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge:

-ROTS Novel

Obi-Wan was losing against Anakin despite the latter being more hindered the he was, having the form advantage and knowing his style of by heart, the ROTS Novel made it clear Obi-Wan was losing.

But that's not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and the let the living Force move him -- the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

-ROTS Junior Novel

Yes, I agree this is one of the reasons Kenobi did so much better than Dooku, but Kenobi did a lot better than Dooku, not just a little. Imo ROTS Kenobi is almost equals with Dooku in sabers, but his stamina would give him the win. However Dooku's weakness is his stamina and low physical strenght, he would have major problems breaking through Kenobi's guard before getting tired.

Yeah, he didn't do a lot better. Kenobi style is defensive, designed to outlast his opponent and block every strike, but Anakin was breaking through his guard a lot. Kenobi lasted longer because the Anakin he faced was << the Anakin Dooku faced and because his lightsaber form is inherently designed to do just that: Defend and outlast. All in all you can't use that to prove Kenobi>Dock at all.

This is bullshit. Dooku's stamina is fine, i'd argue better than Kenobis. Dooku held his own against the combined might of Obi and Anakin for a significant amount of time and then a decent amount against a rage-amped, non-hindered Anakin after that. I even made a Blog on this bullshit assumption.

My Blog on Dooku's stamina issues

There are also official statements saying knightfall Anakin was stronger than before. Not to mention a couple months went by and both had major duels since Dooku, so both Anakin and Kenobi would probably be a bit better than they were at the begging of the movie anyways.

Like? Also Anakin was emotionally heavily hindered due to standing between the light and the dark and physically hindered, he had just completed operation Knightfall and killed all the Separatist leaders. Kenobi had a massive advantage and was still losing.

Yes, he was like Dooku against Anakin, but he could hold out longer.

Due to his Soresu being inherently designed to do so, not because he's better than Dooku, lol.

I agree. Kenobi is definitely not superior to Anakin, his performance was just good enough to lead me to believe that Dooku wouldn't be able to get through his defenses if Anakin couldn't.

Different scenarios entirely. Kenobi knows all of Anakin's style and how to counter it and has a form advantage against Ani.

In comparison, he doesn't know nearly as much about Dooku's style and actually has a disadvantage against Dooku's Makashi.

He doesn't really have better saber feats than ROTS Kenobi. Kenobi took Greivous out in about 30 seconds in the dueling phase of their fight, and Dooku has had some problems with Grievous before. Kenobi also did much better against Anakin.

Doesn't have better Saber feats?How about stomping Asajj Ventress? Holding strong against Master Yoda? Stomping Tholme and Sora Bulq at the same time with relative ease? Beating Ventress and Savage at the same time? Repeatedly fighting and stalemating/winning against late TCW Kenobi and Anakin at the same time?

Damn, dat Kenobi wank. He had immense trouble against Grievous until he entered a state of oneness and started winning. Even then he had lots of trouble. He had repeatedly stalemated/lost against Grievous only a few months earlier, nothing suggests that much would have changed since then.

In a all out fight, yes Dooku has better feats, but that is because of his major force and experience advantage.

In an all out fight Dooku rag dolls Kenobi and cuts his head off.

In pure physicals he really doesn't have better feats than ROTS Kenobi.

Except outright shitting on him physically and outspeeding him?

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.

-ROTS Novel

Then there's this as well.

Dooku still wins in Sabers, though its a good fight.

I'm going to say Team 2.

Kenobi may fight Vos to a stalemate, but Dooku is going to win against Maul. Kenobi may eventually be Vos, but then Dooku comes in and it's over. The only hope Team 1 has is for Kenobi to be Vos before Dooku beats Maul, and then Team 1 might be able to pull out a win.

If Dooku takes on Kenobi first, while Maul takes on Vos, the fighter is over even faster, in Team 2's favor.

@hittheassasin:

Either Yoda is retarded or it's because Obi trained Anakin and knows his fighting style off by heart and because Yoda is just confident in Kenobi abilities. Probably the latter. It's certainly not because he knows Obi to be equal to Anakin.

Teaching him helped, but he said the emperor was too strong for Obi-wan so he needed to be the one to kill Anakin. That is pretty straight forward. And Gillard said Anakin only passed Obi-wan physically, not mentally, which is why he lost. He didn't say Kenobi one because he knew his moves.

You act like Dooku was stomped by Anakin, lol. Dooku was winning until Anakin got rage-amped and could effortlessly match Anakin's attacks when the latter wasn't rage-amped.

Dooku wasn't winning. He was moving back the whole fight. The closest thing he did to say he was winning was landing a kick on Anakin.

Obi-Wan was losing against Anakin despite the latter being more hindered the he was, having the form advantage and knowing his style of by heart, the ROTS Novel made it clear Obi-Wan was losing.

This is canon only, so the novel doesn't apply, though I already agreed Kenobi was losing. He was being pushed back the whole fight, but Anakin's overconfidence led to his defeat.

the Anakin he faced was << the Anakin Dooku faced

There is no canon statement of this, however there is a statement from the guys who made the movie that knightfall Anakin was stronger than before, not to mention Anakin stated it himself in the movie.

and because his lightsaber form is inherently designed to do just that: Defend and outlast.

This is true, but then again I'm not even sure a canon source even states this.

Dooku's stamina is fine,

He was noticeably tired after fighting Anakin and Obi-wan in ep 2, and they were child's play to him.

i'd argue better than Kenobis.

Crazy talk. Kenobi was apart of the longest and most intense fight in the franchise and lasted against a guy shotrnger than him and beating him back the entire time. His style is defensive but most other people would of gassed out or their arms would of stopped moving.

Dooku held his own against the combined might of Obi and Anakin for a significant amount of time

From the moment they started fighting to the moment Dooku force pushed Obi-wan away it was 20 seconds and half that time was spent talking. So he fought them for like 10 seconds, lol.

and then a decent amount against a rage-amped, non-hindered Anakin after that.

For about 30 seconds where he got beat back and killed.

Like?

Kenobi vs Grievous, Anakin vs the jedi at the temple.

Also Anakin was emotionally heavily hindered due to standing between the light and the dark and physically hindered, he had just completed operation Knightfall and killed all the Separatist leaders. Kenobi had a massive advantage and was still losing.

This isn't true at all. Kenobi didn't have an advantage. If anything Anakin was more resolved to kill Obi-wan than Obi-wan was to kill him. Both were hindered.

Due to his Soresu being inherently designed to do so, not because he's better than Dooku, lol.

The fact is none of this stuff is stated in canon and the OP says canon only.

Doesn't have better Saber feats?How about stomping Asajj Ventress?

ROTS Kenobi could easily do that. She isn't even above ep 1 Maul and Kenobi was able to fight Maul and Savage at the same time and Savage was beating Ventress in the previous season.

Holding strong against Master Yoda?

ROTS Kenobi could hold his own against Yoda for 20 seconds as well.

Stomping Tholme and Sora Bulq at the same time with relative ease?

Is this canon? They are probably fodder anyways.

Beating Ventress and Savage at the same time?

He was forced to run from that fight

Repeatedly fighting and stalemating/winning against late TCW Kenobi and Anakin at the same time?

He also almost lost to Anakin in season 5 I believe.

Damn, dat Kenobi wank. He had immense trouble against Grievous until he entered a state of oneness and started winning. Even then he had lots of trouble. He had repeatedly stalemated/lost against Grievous only a few months earlier, nothing suggests that much would have changed since then.

Again you are using non canon sources. There is no oneness in the movie. Kenobi just beat him without much trouble.

In an all out fight Dooku rag dolls Kenobi and cuts his head off.

I already said this. Dooku wins an all out fight because of his force superiority.

Except outright shitting on him physically and outspeeding him?

He never did this to ROTS Kenobi in the movie.

Then there's this as well.

Not canon

Dooku still wins in Sabers, though its a good fight.

I respect this opinion. In sabers I think they are near equal. I just don't see Dooku getting past the defense of a Kenobi with complete focus.

@lordofthelight:

Since you are now making it "only" personal,

Yes, I made it personal. I was totally the one that attacked you. Totally. Absolutely.

I mean your extreme fanboyism and brainlessness has to be shown so that at least, you won't have any credit left.

Have a fun time showing what does not exist.

There is a useless counter for each and every single piece of wank arguments based on canonical evidence that I post.

I prefer accurate, truthful statements like these.

Now you obviously will persist because you are way too stupid to do anything else.

I will "persist" until the pathetic fanwank being spat at my face is gone. And tearing apart fanwank isn't stupid. Perhaps it is, to a brain as small as yours, but to the average brain it isn't.

In doing so, you will post worse and worse arguments.

Why would I keep posting worse arguments as time passes? I love how you base your claims on the great warehouse of evidence that is nothing.

I seriously wonder if you have the lowest IQ on this planet.

I can, with some confidence, say that's wrong. Especially to you.

I mean, rarely have I ever seen a person on these boards with such a level of dumbness. You make Harry and Lloyd look like nobel prize winners.

Funny how you keep bashing my arguments when yours are limited to statements such as these.

You have not debunked any thing, and are parroting the same old nonsense again.

Saying this won't make it true.

Literally this entire post is you going around in circles. You have not made one single response worthy of someone who actually possesses a fully functional brain.

Look who's talking.

There is no hold in Vader's helmet.

Sorry, what's a hold? I am a bit confused right now.

Listen to me, my little finger has "infinitely" more intelligence than your entire brain put together.

I've seen diagrams of the human skeleton, and those diagrams have shown me that the little finger is much smaller than the brain. Thus, your little finger is much smaller than your brain. Given how my brain is already miles bigger than yours, I find it impossible that your little finger is bigger than my brain. Not sure how it can have more intelligence. Unless, of course, you have ways foreign to me. Which given the fact me>>>>you in intelligence, I find highly unlikely or even impossible.

You are nothing but a fanboy.

This is hilarious coming from you, given you say Maul's rightful place is being stomped in the dirt and deny everything that doesn't suit you, either ignoring it or twisting it. Comedy is one of your strong points.

If your brain was functioning normally, you would commit seppuku on seeing your travesty of an argument.

My brain is functioning normally, no. And I wouldn't commit seppuku just because of an argument revolving around fictional characters, lmao. Especially when a salty low tier debater suggested it to me. Suggestions by you are something I'd like out of my life.

No, the slashes disappeared after the alleged illusion making your pathetic statement blatantly false.

Because Vader leaping away+ Sidious' arrival+talk are vital parts of the illusion, and the illusion couldn't have functioned without them- oh wait. It could. The purpose of the illusion was Vader fueling himself with his hatred, which he did to kill the Maul copy. The purpose had been completed. No need for anything else. To emphasize, given the problems with your eyes: the purpose had been completed.Unlike you, I have a grasp of the simple concept that is basic logic.

Too bad the comic itself disagrees with your bias.

LOL. You can say this all you want, I have stomped all of your points. If you want to continue stating biased garbage that has been debunked, you can. Just don't expect your claims to be taken as truth.

I already explained how,

If it can be considered an explanation, then it's a pretty poor one.

but you can do nothing but make these nonsensical statements.

Nonsensical statements? Damn, I feel sorry for you. Your life is basically treating the truth as nonsensical and treating lies as the truth. After realizing this, I might go easier on you and not keep demolishing you as hard as I have.

And oh yeah, brilliant argument.

Compared to your arguments? This is 300% correct.

All you can do is say "Oh you are wrong, but I don't know how I am so brainless, I can;t say how so I'll just go on a loop".

Go on a loop? When I have ever said this? And no, I don't know how I am brainless because I am not.

Vader was completely free of all his injuries

We never see the front part of his body (chest and legs) where his injuries were, yet we have statements like these. Memorable.

and I have already crushed that statement of yours and fed it to dogs.

Funny. All the dogs I have encountered in the past few days disagree.

Yeah it did.

How did you come by this information?

Nope, all you have done so far is literally say the same thing again and again.

Succesfully denying all the nonsense you have spouted in the process.

You are focusing on personal insults rather than arguments of substance.

Says the guy who attacked his opponent with a gigantic post, 4/5 composed of insults, and has done nothing but spew debunked nonsense. This is getting funnier than I expected.

I am noting this. You are just focusing on random, meaningless sentences, and are doing absolutely nothing to address any major argument.

I haven't done anything "major" because I didn't need to, given how your arguments were pathetically easy to address.

And let me say this, if by doing all this drama, you think you can intimidate anyone, you are mistaken.

It's not my goal to intimidate anyone, so I'm not mistaken.

1. Both of you are persistent, stupidly so , even when you know your entire reputation and battle is gone down the drain.

When have I ever done this? This is not an example of it, this is you desperately trying to intimidate me, but failing horribly and getting curbstomped in the process.

Both of you idolize Maul, stupidly so.

I find it unbelievable that you can even dream of daring to say this.

Both of you give arguments that would make a troll's brain hurt.

Yes, they make troll brains hurt because they absolutely debunk them and put them to shame.

Both of you can't accept certain facts, I don't know, maybe you are too stupid to understand, or you just can't stand to see Maul getting stomped in the dirt where he rightfully belongs.

If anyone doubted that there was a pathetic bias against Maul in your skull (which, by the way, is the thickest one I've seen in my entire life) this absolutely purged aforementioned doubts. I just love it when the opposition does the work for me.

Abusing Tk to choke? To kill? No.

Not to kill? Vader has Ezra pinned against a wall, and is about to force Ezra's saber into his neck, and decapitate him. Ezra won't die if he's decapitated? He's immortal? What a fantastic argument.

And canonical statements support my point.

Your point is: Vader was toying with them. If he was toying with them, logically he wouldn't have tried to kill Ezra as soon as the fight started. He did. And he later tried to kill Kanan, per a canonical statement. My point is: Vader wasn't toying with them. Which the fight itself (Vader trying to kill Ezra right at the beginning) and Starwars.com's canonical statement support. Canonical evidence supports my point. You have tried to twist this saying Vader was toying by bringing Ezra's blade to his neck slowly, but Vader still tried to kill him which debunks your point. So no, canonical evidence does not support your point. In fact, aforementioned evidence disproves your point. Unless, of course, your opinion>canonical evidence. And the answer I'm leaning towards in regards to that matter is no.

Hey man, know what, you haven't made a single argument.

In my last post in response to you, I did. Unless we're talking about different posts, this statement is blatantly false.

You will not change. I know this.

You know for a fact that the fact you're getting stomped won't change? If so, I don't understand why you're still in this debate. Second, I am (positively) surprised that you acknowledge this fact.

Display your empty skull to the world again and again.

My skull isn't empty, so I'm very sorry, I can't do this.

Laughable, but I wouldn't expect anything better from a person like you.

You not only treat the truth as a lie, you treat it as laughable. I can't quite explain how, but I'm beginning to actually feel worried for you.

But you did. A look at your rubbish will prove it.

Just because they say nice try, and I say it too, means I copied from them? It really doesn't. I do know Nova said, but I didn't even know Vivas said that, and even now I haven't seen it. But by all means, keep saying that. If it makes you feel better than you are now- which, if you have the smallest amount of intelligence (I seriously doubt it at this point), won't be very well.

I don't need filler.

The entirety of your freaking post seems to disagree hardcore with this notion.

Up tillnow you have done nothing, but speak nonsense.

I haven't done that- you, however, have- who do you think you are to say this? Given your arguments in this thread, the right you have to say this does not exist.

To a person with an empty skull. Of course. Not to anyone with even a few brain cells.

You just called your own skull empty. Nice going.

KMC people are smart? Yes of course they are. Smartness measured by how empty your skull is rather than full, in such a case, they top smartness.

In normal smartness however, they are some of the dumbest creatures on the planet.

What do you have against KMC people? Or are they just a big target where you can unleash the anger that got within you when I began utterly thrashing you in this debate?

And so are you.

Congratulations sir, you have been awarded with the Nobel prize for the most false and baseless statements ever seen on this Earth.

Maul had initiated the attack. The attack is what pulled Obi Wan face to face with Maul. Before that his back was turned.

No, Obi-Wan very clearly turned to face Maul. Kenobi is already leaping at Maul when Maul has his hand down and hasn't even initiated the grip.

And I forgot, Obi Wan was fighting Savage and was beating him down and had almost finished him.

It happens seconds before the Force attack. But I guess we can ignore irrelevant details such as this.

So I wonder why he would suddenly turn, just as Maul has raised a hand at him.

He had turned before Maul raised a hand. Heck, before Maul had gotten his hand into a Grip position (not Choke, Grip. Choke =/= Grip.

Maul's hand is clearly in a force grip position.

That’s not a Force Grip position. This is a Force Grip position:

Look at how Maul lifts his hand. That's a Force Grip position. The picture you posted shows Maul's hand in an entirely different position. You have, for the trillionth time, failed.

So again, your lies have been exposed.

This statement perfectly applies to you.

I am afraid you have been misinformed.

Actually, your fears have no reason to be, since this came from the most trustworthy of vulture sources.

You don't need to be bitter just because Maul keeps getting periodically stomped.

Bitter. Lmao. Maul got stomped once. Stomped by a guy who could one-shot three of your beloved Obi-Wans with no more than a casual twitch of his finger. Periodically stomped = getting stomped once by the second most powerful Force user bar entities. These arguments are perfection.

Didn't you see the circular gestures made by Obi Wan? That is a force grip.

We certainly aren't talking about the same instance. In the Turtle Tanker, Obi-Wan dodged a strike from a hindered Maul and Force Pushed a Maul whose defenses were down. Kenobi prepping himself when Maul was off guard doesn't mean it was a Force Grip.

Maul was simply caught in one, and was spun around. It wasn't a paltry force push, it wasn't a force push at all.

It was a paltry Force Push on an off guard Maul. Anyone who isn't absolutely rendered blind by bias can see that.

It was domination.

I'm the best! I just found a solution for your problem! You can post all of the claims you made in this post here:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/fan-fic-8/

He wasn't facing Maul at all, and Maul has clearly initiated his attack because his hand is in that exact position.

That isn't a Force Grip attack, nor is Maul's hand in a Force attack position. T his claim is blatantly false as seen in this episode. Next!

The thing is, Obi Wan stomped him so hard that he lost consciousness for 6 seconds. He was traumatized by Obi Wan dominating him in the force and could not even move. He felt weak and helpless.

So, you were in Maul's mind? You know he felt weak and helpless? I really want to know how you accomplished such a thing. Entering the thoughts of a fictional character.

Which is why when Obi Wan kicked him later, he stayed down for 6 seconds again. He was far too traumatized to move, being dominated by his opponent. He saw his chance and caught Obi Wan off guard just soon after he changed lightsabers and kicked him with metal legs. But Obi Wan got up in a jiffy.

Yeah, all any sane person sees here is pure stompage of Maul.

The fan-fic section of the Vine is calling out to you... it feels you would be a valuable poster in it.

Brothers? Savage had his hands full with Ventress.

Oh, you were talking about Turtle Tanker. Never mind.

He wasn't desperate lol. The novel outright denies it.

The episode clearly shows him trying to get away as fast as he can, and he knows that he/the pirates loyal to Hondo is outmatched.

And it was a blast. There was no "few feet". The wording used was the same as when Maul basted him, which means that they were hauled tens of metres backwards.

OK, he shoved them back a few meters. But... Kenobi has never achieved this type of power against Maul before. He landed a paltry hit on an off guard Maul, got instastomped with Force Choke, got Gripped again, and hindered Maul has a bettter Force feat than him. All the evidence points to this being an outliar. But keep using it.

I have already torn the argument that Obi Wan was amped to shreds,

Again, you should try the fan-fic section out. It really does suit your type of claims.

In reality, though, you haven't. Your beloved unamped argument has been torn. If you want me to debunk it again, just say yes. I will gladly do so.

You are bleating to the wall however.

You considered yourself a wall. Not saying I don't agree, I just think it's hilarious.

Oh and there is also this:

Her mastery of the two-sword form was admirable, but in his experience such fighters tended to rely too much on their blades, and pay too little attention to the Force.

Jar'Kar hinders force use

Kenobi's amp amps Force use. Next!

When Maul was amped. And Obi Wan was hindered. Lol.

Maul wasn't amped in Sith Hunters, lol. The choke took place hours after the dream. Force Rage only amps you for a short period of time:

Force Rage: One of the most powerful techniques taught to the Dark Jedi and Sith, it was similar to a Wookie battle cry in that it allowed an individual to unleash primal energies. When coupled with a link to the Dark Side of the Force, however, these energies manifested themselves as Force Rage, giving the Dark Jedi or Sith increased power for a short period of time. This alter skill was also one of the most demanding of the dark arts, as it drained huge amounts of energy from the individual using it.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Nor was Kenobi hindered.

Yeah, and as I have already said, Obi Wan was fully focused on battering Savage and didn't even register Maul.

Yeah, and as y ou have ignored, the battering happened seconds before the attack.

And a hugely hindered Obi Wan dominated Maul with the force, and dominated both Maul and Opress with the force again.

*A somewhat hindered Obi-Wan landed a paltry push on an off guard Maul who was at least as hindered as Kenobi, and shoved both brothers in a massive outliar.

Yeah, because bringing down a huge wall and knocking a small army of droids is not better than what Obi Wan has done at all.

I know you are blind, but in the off chance you can read, I clearly said: "ONLY IN THE TCW SHOW".

Even in the TCW show, as I clearly knew you were talking about, that isn't better than what Obi-Wan did. Obi-Wan pushed Ventress, who still has some good feats in the TCW show.

Actually this is easier. You see, since you can only give the most rudimentary form of arguments and deny evidence. I have not done so far, but from now on, I too will do the same. I will not offer any reason for what I am saying as have you done, I will say absolute lies, as you have done, and I will keep saying the same nonsense again and again as you've done. Difference is, I have already made my arguments, utterly crushing yours to shreds in the process and reducing you to bleating like fodder as you've done throughout this pathetic post.

You did what's underlined, I did what's italicized.

Your entire argument has been nothing but debunked statements and nonsensical replies that have nothing to do with anything. Literally your entire argument.

Nice way to describe your own argument. Really nice.

@alextheboss: @hittheassasin:

Either Yoda is retarded or it's because Obi trained Anakin and knows his fighting style off by heart and because Yoda is just confident in Kenobi abilities. Probably the latter. It's certainly not because he knows Obi to be equal to Anakin.

I'd argue Yoda sensed Anakin was hindered, because sidious surmised that in Dark Lord Anakin lost as he was conflicted

@kbroskywalker: Obi-wan would still have to be close enough to Anakin to make his hindrance relevant. A hindered Palpatine would still stomp Kenobi.

@alextheboss:

Anakin was only marginally better than Kenobi.

No, he was more than marginally ahead of Kenobi. First off, Anakin's a tier, Kenobi's an eight:

Hayden in this film has gone up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi.

Obi knows that Anakin is better than him, but because he taught him, he knows emotionally how he's going to behave.

Nick Gillard

The difference between tiers is quite solid.

Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it's a huge jump from one level to another.

Nick Gillard

This is enough to prove Anakin is well above Kenobi. This is only in sabers. In Force, Anakin's feats are much, much better.

Yoda had full confidence that Obi-wan could win.

Yoda just told it to Sidious, perhaps to scare him. We're not sure if he actually thought that. Anyway, we have Nick Gillard's word that proves Anakin is well above Kenobi, and Obi-Wan's own admission that he'd lose against a hindered Anakin.

As Anakin's lightsaber hummed toward him, a calm certainty filled Obi-Wan. Anakin was going to kill him. Oh, he'd make Anakin work for it. He'd fight with everything he had. But he was positive, with the sureness that came from any Force-driven insight, that he would die at Anakin's hands.

Revenge of the Sith junior novel

Everything suggests Anakin>Kenobi by quite a big margin (no circumstances involved, of course.)

The 5 minute epic lightsaber fight says otherwise.

Yes, but there were circumstances to that.

Yes, I agree this is one of the reasons Kenobi did so much better than Dooku, but Kenobi did a lot better than Dooku, not just a little.

Yes, because:

Anakin was emotionally hindered.

Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable.

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Yes, Kenobi was hindered too, but he was less hindered than Anakin, given how (obviously) he has much more self-control than Anakin, and because of this:

Obi-Wan triumphed because he went to Mustafar with a single intention in mind: to kill Darth Vader.

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Which proves Kenobi was committed to killing Anakin even if he was somewhat hindered.

And Kenobi had encyclopedic knowledge of Anakin's style:

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

Revenge of the Sith novel

They had sparred together so often that they knew each other's favorite moves. Obi-Wan hardly had to think to counter Anakin's attack.

Revenge of the Sith junior novel

Years of fighting side-by-side left these warriors evenly matched, and their exhausting duel crossed the fiery landscape of a Mustafar refinery.

Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Yes, it would have favored Anakin too, but the junior novel notes on how Obi-Wan hardly had to think to counter Anakin's attack- which means that Obi-Wan was at a greater advantage. And even without this knowledge, Kenobi's form is good with dealing for Anakin's which would put him at even bigger of an advantage.

So, we have seen that even though Anakin was hindered, and Kenobi had a heavy dueling advantage, Anakin was still at least equal to him. Yeah, we have quotes saying they were evenly matched, but the ROTS novel does depict Anakin as Kenobi's better.

In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.

Exchanges flashed. Leaps were sideslipped or met with flying kicks; ankle sweeps skipped over and punches parried. The door of the control center fell in pieces, and then they were inside among the bodies. Consoles exploded in fountains of white-hot sparks as they ripped free of their moorings and hurtled through the air. Dead hands spasmed on triggers and blaster bolts sizzled through impossibly intricate lattices of ricochet.

Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily,contemptously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog.

(...)

A roar of the Force blasted Obi-Wan back into a wall, smashing breath from his lungs, leaving him swaying, half stunned. Anakin stepped over bodies and lifted his blade for the kill.

Obi-Wan had only one trick left, one that wouldn't work twice-

(...)

Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!"

Dark power bore down with his grip.

Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks.

Oh, he thought. Oh, this is bad.

(...)

So basically, heavily hindered Anakin with a heavy form disadvantage>=Kenobi. Which proves standard Anakin is at least considerably above Kenobi.

Imo ROTS Kenobi is almost equals with Dooku in sabers,

I'd say almost equal is a bit too much. But yeah, the gap isn't anywhere close to big.

but his stamina would give him the win.

Dooku's Makashi is an energy efficient fighting style, meaning that he won't tire easily.

However Dooku's weakness is his stamina

No it isn't.

He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possiblity. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed.

Revenge of the Sith junior novel

Dooku can keep going for quite a long period of time.

and low physical strenght,

Lmao.

he would have major problems breaking through Kenobi's guard before getting tired.

He would have problems, of course. But his superior saber skill, Makashi being good to deal with Soresu, and considerable stamina+energy efficient style will allow him to ultimately emerge victorious.

There are also official statements saying knightfall Anakin was stronger than before.

Knightfall Anakin wasn't hindered massively, Mustafar Vader was. Knightfall Vader and Mustafar Vader are not the same thing at all.

Not to mention a couple months went by

Proof?

and both had major duels since Dooku,

Kenobi did, yeah, but Anakin? He only had the raid on the Temple, which was mostly dispatching easy fodder- bar Drallig, the battlemaster, who was three-shotted by Vader, and Shaak Ti, who barely held her own.

Yes, he was like Dooku against Anakin, but he could hold out longer.

Due to circumstances.

I agree. Kenobi is definitely not superior to Anakin, his performance was just good enough to lead me to believe that Dooku wouldn't be able to get through his defenses if Anakin couldn't.

There is context to Kenobi's much better performance though. It's not really a valid way of saying Kenobi could beat Dooku, because Dooku's accolades are better, as are his feats.

He doesn't really have better saber feats than ROTS Kenobi. Kenobi took Greivous out in about 30 seconds in the dueling phase of their fight,

In the minute they fought, Grievous overloaded Kenobi's defences and gave Kenobi difficulty.

The bio-droid general cast back his cloak, revealing the four lightsabers pocketed there. He stepped back, spreading wide his duranium arms. "You will not be the first Jedi I have killed, nor will you be the last."

Obi-Wan's only reply was to subtly shift the angle of his lightsaber up and forward. The general's wide-spread arms now split along their lengths, dividing in half—even his hands split in half— Now he had four arms. And four hands. And each hand took a lightsaber as his cloak dropped to the floor. They snarled to life and Grievous spun all four of them in a flourishing velocity so fast and so seamlessly integrated that he seemed to stand within a pulsing sphere of blue and green energy.

"Come on, then, Kenobi! Come for me!" he said. "I have been trained in your Jedi arts by Lord Tyranus himself!"

"Do you mean Count Dooku? What a curious coincidence," Obi-Wan said with a deceptively pleasant smile. "I trained the man who killed him."

With a convulsive snarl, Grievous lunged. The sphere of blue lightsaber energy around him bulged toward Obi-Wan and opened like a mouth to bite him in half. ObiWan stood his ground, his blade still. Chain-lightning teeth closed upon him.

[...]

There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can become. He is simplicity itself. That is his power. Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."

This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught—to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts—Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad—or Yoda's mastery of Ataro—"

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?"

"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—"

"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

So now, facing the tornado of annihilating energy that is Grievous's attack, Obi-Wan simply is who he is. The electrodrivers powering Grievous's mechanical arms let each of the four attack thrice in a single second; integrated by combat algorithms in the bio-droid's electronic network of peripheral processors, each of the twelve strikes per second came from a different angle with different speed and intensity, an unpredictably broken rhythm of slashes, chops, and stabs of which every single one could take Obi-Wan's life. Not one touched him.

After all, he had often walked unscathed through hornetswarms of blasterfire, defended only by the Force's direction of his blade; countering twelve blows per second was only difficult, not impossible. His blade wove an intricate web of angles and curves, never truly fast but always just fast enough, each motion of his lightsaber subtly interfering with three or four or eight of the general's strikes, the rest sizzling past him, his precise, minimal shifts of weight and stance slipping them by centimeters.

Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks—sixteen per second, eighteen—until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense. So Obi-Wan used his defense to attack. A subtle shift in the angle of a single parry brought Obi-Wan's blade in contact not with the blade of the oncoming lightsaber, but with the handgrip. —slice— The blade winked out of existence a hairbreadth before it would have burned through Obi-Wan's forehead. Half the severed lightsaber skittered away, along with the duranium thumb and first finger of the hand that had held it.

Grievous paused, eyes pulsing wide, then drawing narrow. He lifted his maimed hand and stared at the white-hot stumps that held now only half a useless lightsaber.

Obi-Wan smiled at him.

Grievous lunged.

Obi-Wan parried.

Pieces of lightsabers bounced on the durasteel deck. Grievous looked down at the blade-sliced hunks of metal that were all he had left in his hands, then up at Obi-Wan's shining sky- colored blade, then down at his hands again, and then he seemed to suddenly remember that he had an urgent appointment somewhere else. Anywhere else.

Obi-Wan stepped toward him, but a shock from the Force made him leap back just as a scarlet HE bolt struck the floor right where he'd been about to place his foot. Obi-Wan rode the explosion, flipping in the air to land upright between a pair of super battle droids that were busily firing upon the flank of a squad of clone troopers, which they continued to do until they found themselves falling in pieces to the deck.

Obi-Wan spun.

In the chaos of exploding droids and dying men, Grievous was nowhere to be seen. Obi-Wan waved his lightsaber at the clones. "The general!" he shouted. "Which way?"

One trooper circled his arm as though throwing a proton grenade back toward the archway where Obi-Wan had first entered. He followed the gesture and saw, for an instant in the sun-shadow of the Vigilance outside, the back curves of twin bladed rings— ganged together to make a wheel the size of a starfighter— rolling swiftly off along the sinkhole rim. General Grievous was very good at running away.

"Not this time," Obi-Wan muttered, and cut a path through the tangled mob of droids all the way to the arch in a single sustained surge, reaching the open air just in time to see the blade-wheeler turn; it was an open ring with a pilot's chair inside, and in the pilot's chair sat Grievous, who lifted one of his bodyguards' electrostaffs in a sardonic wave as he took the scooter straight out over the edge.

Revenge of the Sith novel

Dooku beat Grievous every time in lots and lots of sparring sessions- yeah, the General gave him problems, but he didn't overload Dooku's defence or Dooku wouldn't have just considered the problems "Dooku being hard pressed to outduel Grievous". Dooku's performances against Grievous are superior in spite of Kenobi having the form advantage over Grievous.

As for feats:

Dooku beat Quinlan Vos pretty hard.

Dooku held his own pretty well against Ventress+two other Nightsisters while severely hindered.

And not just two random Nightsisters:

"Karis and Naa'leth are the greatest warriors of our coven."

Mother Talzin

Two of if not the best Nightsisters, the average Nightsister being powerful.

Stomped two MagnaGuards.

He flicked his blade quickly, ridding two of the guards of their staffs, then placing the glowing tip a millimeter from Grievous's death-helmeted visage.

Labyrinth of Evil

And, of course, it's quite obvious Dooku is close to Mace level- Mace being considerably above Kenobi.

Dooku's accolades are also superior.

Dooku is superior to TPM Maul, one of the most skilled Sith in history.

More sophisticated, more calculating, and if anything deadlier than Maul, Count Dooku (a.k.a. Darth Tyranus) proved himself more than a match for the combined skills of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker in Attack of the Clones.

Panel-to-Panel Volume 1

Actually, Dooku's skills in the history of the Order were eclipsed only by Yoda, Mace and obviously Anakin who's canonically better than Mace. Which means Dooku's better than Kenobi.

Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

Source: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

Dooku's feats are better, as are his accolades.

In pure physicals he really doesn't have better feats than ROTS Kenobi.

Yeah right.

@thesithmaster:

No, he was more than marginally ahead of Kenobi. First off, Anakin's a tier, Kenobi's an eight:

Anakin was probably the lowest 9 possible, while Kenobi was most likely a high 8. Also there is a source that says Anakin only became a 9 after falling to the dark side.

The difference between tiers is quite solid.

Yes, if Obi-wan was a low 8 and Anakin was a 9 that would be a big difference. However since ep 1 Maul was an 8, and ROTS Kenobi should be above him, then Kenobi should at least be a mid to upper 8.

Yoda just told it to Sidious, perhaps to scare him. We're not sure if he actually thought that. Anyway, we have Nick Gillard's word that proves Anakin is well above Kenobi, and Obi-Wan's own admission that he'd lose against a hindered Anakin.

He also said the same thing to Kenobi. He said Kenobi couldn't fight the emperor because he was too strong, so he had to fight Anakin. This proves, at least in Yoda's mind

Kenobi<=>Anakin<Yoda<=>Sidious

So basically, heavily hindered Anakin with a heavy form disadvantage>=Kenobi. Which proves standard Anakin is at least considerably above Kenobi.

Yes, I do think at full power he is noticeably above Kenobi.

Proof?

After the defeat of Dooku there were multilpe senate hearings, multiple jedi council meetings, Anakin going back and forth meeting the chancellor, multiple battles, Obi-wan going to fight Grievous, Anakin turning to the dark side. Obi-wan and Yoda escaping order 66, meeting up, going to the jedi temple, and going to fight their respective enemies. Most likely a few months went buy. Is there an official time frame?

Kenobi did, yeah, but Anakin? He only had the raid on the Temple, which was mostly dispatching easy fodder- bar Drallig, the battlemaster, who was three-shotted by Vader, and Shaak Ti, who barely held her own.

Well Kenobi's growth is more important here, and I think him defeating Grievous helped him grow as a fighter.

There is context to Kenobi's much better performance though. It's not really a valid way of saying Kenobi could beat Dooku, because Dooku's accolades are better, as are his feats.

But those circumstances don't come from canon sources.

In the minute they fought, Grievous overloaded Kenobi's defences and gave Kenobi difficulty.

Non canon

As for feats:

Dooku beat Quinlan Vos pretty hard.

Pretty sure this isn't canon either, and Vos would probably be a 7 in lightsaber combat so he should get stomped by Dooku.

Dooku held his own pretty well against Ventress+two other Nightsisters while severely hindered.

Considering Ventress was the only one trained to use a lightsaber, this makes sense.

And not just two random Nightsisters:

Two of if not the best Nightsisters, the average Nightsister being powerful.

Stomped two MagnaGuards.

But they were nightsters fighting like jedi. They can only fight at their best when fighting like nightsters which would of game them away.

And, of course, it's quite obvious Dooku is close to Mace level- Mace being considerably above Kenobi.

I don't think Mace is considerably above Kenobi. Anakin even implied Kenobi was close to Mace in ep 2, though that didn't make much sense tbh. But by ROTS he should be.

Dooku is superior to TPM Maul, one of the most skilled Sith in history.

So is ROTS Kenobi.

Actually, Dooku's skills in the history of the Order were eclipsed only by Yoda, Mace and obviously Anakin who's canonically better than Mace. Which means Dooku's better than Kenobi.

Did that source come out before or after ep 3 came out? I feel like it was something that came out after ep 2, making it irrelevant.

Yeah right.

That comic isn't canon.

Here are my estimated saber rankings

Sidious/Yoda: 9.2

Anakin (knightfall unhindered): 9.0

Mace: 8.9

Vader: 8.8

Ben: 8.7

Dooku/Kenobi (ep 3): 8.6

Maul (prime)/Ahsoka: 8.5

Maul (ep 1): 8.3

Ventress/Greivous: high 7 bordering low eight

Savage/Luke (ep 6): high 7

Qui-gon/Kit Fisto/Kenobi (ep 2)/Anakin(ep2): mid 7

Kenobi(ep1): high 6 low 7

Luke (ep5): 6

I don't see how. Vos is a weak link. Cad Bane would of killed him if Kenobi wasn't with him, lol.

@alextheboss:

Anakin was probably the lowest 9 possible,

Why? He has feats to prove that he isn't that low of a nine (teaching Dooku a serious lesson).

while Kenobi was most likely a high 8.

High eight? I'd say he's a mid eight close to high- something like 8.6, given how high eight is occupied by Kenobi's superiors (Dooku, Mace).

Also there is a source that says Anakin only became a 9 after falling to the dark side.

Yeah, Gillard said something like that, but Anakin should be at least eight bordering nine, which means Anakin should be 8.9/9.0. And he does have a level nine showing.

Yes, if Obi-wan was a low 8 and Anakin was a 9 that would be a big difference.

Gillard says that it's a huge jump from one level to the other meaning that the mere jump from high eight to low nine is big, meaning that, no matter the position within the tiers, a tier 9 is solidly ahead of a tier 8.

However since ep 1 Maul was an 8, and ROTS Kenobi should be above him, then Kenobi should at least be a mid to upper 8.

ROTS Kenobi should be above TPM Maul, but by a margin that is slightly bigger than something that could be considered a small margin. TPM Maul comes quite close to ROTS Kenobi.

He also said the same thing to Kenobi.

He told Kenobi that he needed to go to Mustafar. He said "go kill Anakin." Doesn't necessarily mean Yoda was 100% sure of Kenobi's success, though. Kenobi was the only person he could send after Anakin. He couldn't send Kenobi after the Emperor, because the Emperor's too powerful for anyone bar Yoda.

He said Kenobi couldn't fight the emperor because he was too strong, so he had to fight Anakin.

Well, obviously, because Palpatine had fought four Jedi Masters- and to Yoda/Kenobi's knowledge- defeated them. Mace alone is better than Kenobi, the other ones comparable to him in their own right. It was pretty obvious Kenobi couldn't take the Emperor alone- and it was also obvious Palpatine>Anakin, so Kenobi had a greater chance against Anakin than he did against Palpatine.

After the defeat of Dooku there were multilpe senate hearings, multiple jedi council meetings, Anakin going back and forth meeting the chancellor, multiple battles, Obi-wan going to fight Grievous, Anakin turning to the dark side. Obi-wan and Yoda escaping order 66, meeting up, going to the jedi temple, and going to fight their respective enemies. Most likely a few months went buy. Is there an official time frame?

Senate hearings and Council meetings can happen one day after the other, or two days space in between. Obi-Wan's trip to Utapau would be one or two days, Yoda going to Kashyyyk and the battle would be another few days, Anakin's turn could perhaps be in a month, and Obi-Wan meeting with Yoda+the temple happened overnight. Obi's trip to Mustafar should also be some days. Honestly, I see one month, two months. But a few months (four, five) seems the most popular opinion. I am not, however, of a canonical or official timeframe.

But those circumstances don't come from canon sources.

They're Legends- they're not part of the new Disney canon, but it's pretty obvious here I'm debating Legends too. Even in Canon, Anakin being hindered should still apply, given the dialogue in the movie makes Anakin look like an emotional wreck- and the fight itself should be riddled with circumstances, given how Gillard's rankings apply to Canon as well.

As for the style knowledge/advantage for Kenobi, it's debatable. I personally view the novels as Legends, but here on CV some users view it as Canon. It's debatable.

Pretty sure this isn't canon either,

It's Legends, which I'm using here.

Considering Ventress was the only one trained to use a lightsaber, this makes sense.

The other Nightsisters are very skilled combatants too, meaning they have proficiency with most melee weapons.

But they were nightsters fighting like jedi.

They weren't exactly fighting like Jedi. Dooku simply thought they were Jedi. Which is logical. Dooku was attacked in the middle of the night- the Jedi are his main enemy, and only Jedi could have infiltrated his palace- and he heard lightsabers activating. Obviously he thought they were Jedi.

I don't think Mace is considerably above Kenobi.

His superiority to Dooku+swift defeats of Ventress and Grievous prove this notion.

Anakin even implied Kenobi was close to Mace in ep 2,

A feat-to-feat comparison between the two at the time of AOTC makes this claim absolutely laughable.

So is ROTS Kenobi.

By a small margin. At best, slightly above small.

Did that source come out before or after ep 3 came out?

It came out in 2010- five years after Episode III came out.

That comic isn't canon.

Yes, it is. The comics, to my knoweldge, are canon.

Sidious/Yoda: 9.2

Anakin (knightfall unhindered): 9.0

Sidious+Yoda are at least 9.5. Anakin I agree.

Mace: 8.9

Agreed.

Vader: 8.8

Vader's an 8.6/8.7 along with Maul/maybe Kenobi. He isn't above Dooku.

Ben: 8.7

Agreed.

Dooku/Kenobi (ep 3): 8.6

Dooku should be 8.8.

Maul (prime)/Ahsoka: 8.5

Maul should be bumped up to 8.6 or 8.7.

Also, why the hell is Ahsoka an 8.5? She isn't even an 8.0, let alone 8.5. It's also a bit insulting to Maul to put Ahsoka at his level or anywhere close to it.

Maul (ep 1): 8.3

I'd bump him up to 8.4/8.5.

Ventress/Greivous: high 7 bordering low eight

Grievous is at least 8.3, Ventress is 8.0 or 8.1.

Savage/Luke (ep 6): high 7

A 7.9 would be fine for Savage, but Luke deserves at least 8.1. 8.2 or maybe even 8.3 would be the right thing.

Qui-gon/Kit Fisto/Kenobi (ep 2)/Anakin(ep2): mid 7

Qui-Gon and Kit deserve 7.8/7.9, I'd rank Obi at 7.8 and Anakin at 7.9.

Kenobi(ep1): high 6 low 7

Kenobi should be anywhere from 7.2 to 7.4.

Luke (ep5): 6

Luke should be at least 7.0.

@thesithmaster:

Why? He has feats to prove that he isn't that low of a nine (teaching Dooku a serious lesson).

Dooku is an 8 and like you've been saying (or maybe it was the other guy?) Anakin's fighting style goes well against Dooku. I don't think Yoda or Sidious are high 9's either.

High eight? I'd say he's a mid eight close to high- something like 8.6, given how high eight is occupied by Kenobi's superiors (Dooku, Mace).

That's actually exactly where I put him, lol.

Yeah, Gillard said something like that, but Anakin should be at least eight bordering nine, which means Anakin should be 8.9/9.0. And he does have a level nine showing.

Yep, that's where I put him.

Gillard says that it's a huge jump from one level to the other meaning that the mere jump from high eight to low nine is big, meaning that, no matter the position within the tiers, a tier 9 is solidly ahead of a tier 8.

He also said mentally Anankin is behind Kenobi, which is one of the reasons he lost. If Anakin had a better mentality and more experience he could better utilize his skill and power.

ROTS Kenobi should be above TPM Maul, but by a margin that is slightly bigger than something that could be considered a small margin. TPM Maul comes quite close to ROTS Kenobi.

Ya, I agree.

He told Kenobi that he needed to go to Mustafar. He said "go kill Anakin." Doesn't necessarily mean Yoda was 100% sure of Kenobi's success, though. Kenobi was the only person he could send after Anakin. He couldn't send Kenobi after the Emperor, because the Emperor's too powerful for anyone bar Yoda.

I know, that just means that he knew Kenobi was close enough to Anakin where he would have a chance of victory.

but it's pretty obvious here I'm debating Legends too.

The OP says canon only. I'm not extremely well versed in legends. But from what I've seen from canon material this would be a good fight where imo Vos is the weak link. Also how the fight is paired could change the outcome. I don't think Dooku could rag doll Rebel's Maul and ROTS Kenobi should defeat Vos in a duel, so team 1 would win in that instance. But if Dooku goes up against Kenobi and rag dolls him they could team up on Maul and win.

Even in Canon, Anakin being hindered should still apply, given the dialogue in the movie makes Anakin look like an emotional wreck- and the fight itself should be riddled with circumstances, given how Gillard's rankings apply to Canon as well.

I agree he wasn't at 100% but there is no evidence he was any weaker. Just that he couldn't fight to the best of his ability because his mind wasn't clear. I would say he should of at least been fighting at 80-90% efficiency.

The other Nightsisters are very skilled combatants too, meaning they have proficiency with most melee weapons.

Being proficient in melee weapons means nothing to one of the best lightsaber duelists of the time. Even Savage Opress before any training would of killed all of those nightsisters besides Assaj.

They weren't exactly fighting like Jedi. Dooku simply thought they were Jedi.

Exactly. They were fodder. Any tier 8 could of done the same.

Yes, it is. The comics, to my knoweldge, are canon.

Movie comics and novels aren't canon. The only comics that are canon are ones that came out post Disney.

Sidious+Yoda are at least 9.5.

Reasons?

Vader's an 8.6/8.7 along with Maul/maybe Kenobi. He isn't above Dooku.

I could definitely see this. The new canon has just been pushing Vader as a beast, so I kind of highballed him.

Dooku should be 8.8.

Possibly

Maul should be bumped up to 8.6 or 8.7.

I could see this as well.

Also, why the hell is Ahsoka an 8.5? She isn't even an 8.0, let alone 8.5. It's also a bit insulting to Maul to put Ahsoka at his level or anywhere close to it.

Ahsoka in her prime did really well against Vader and fought Maul off for a bit. There are also statements from the writers saying she is the top 3-4 jedi duelist of all time (which imo is them wanking their character) but still, she seems to be really good. Tbh I'm not a big Ahsoka fan, but they are giving Filoni a lot of power and he likes to buff his characters and OT characters while liking to make Maul look like trash whenever he feels like it, lol.

I'd bump him up to 8.4/8.5.

I could see this

Grievous is at least 8.3, Ventress is 8.0 or 8.1.

Since you put Maul higher than I did, your gap between them is pretty much the same as mine so it works. Pretty much are scale is similar but you bumped a lot of people up a little.

but Luke deserves at least 8.1. 8.2 or maybe even 8.3 would be the right thing.

While he was amped against Vader, ya he was probably above an 8, but I don't really see him always being on that level. He lacks experience.

Qui-Gon and Kit deserve 7.8/7.9, I'd rank Obi at 7.8 and Anakin at 7.9.

Reasonable

Kenobi should be anywhere from 7.2 to 7.4.

I think there is a source saying ep 1 Kenobi was a 6 and one saying he was a 7, which is why I said he was a high 6 to low 7.

Luke should be at least 7.0.

I don't know about that. He was pretty bad and was never in a real duel before. He may of had the power and reaction time of a 7, but I think a good six could possibly take him because of experience.

@thesithmaster: @alextheboss:

there's no such thing as a low 9, all nine's are ~:

he highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."Source:http://web.archive.org/web/20051202222123/http://starwars.com/episode-iii/bts/production/beacon126.html

I thought there was a source that says there is a level 10 but nobody in the movies was on that level.

@kbroskywalker:

We're talking about overall combatants, not just skill. Augmentation must be taken into account. All nines are equal in technical skill, yeah, but if there is a big disparity in Augmentation, then the guy that has much better Augmentation is the best overall lightsaber combatant and will thus win a fight.

it's never stated that augmentation isn't included in Gillard's tier system.

@kbroskywalker:

All nines are about equal in technical skill- but if one nine has much better strength feats and much better speed feats than the other nine, the nine with better feats is a much better combatant and will beat the guy with inferior feats decisively due to Augmentation playing a vital part in a duel. It ain't hard to understand.

You're just repeating your earlier claim, a claim you've yet to substantiate. Where does Gillard specify that his tier system for lightsaber combat is exclusively reliant on technical skill?

@kbroskywalker:

You're just repeating your earlier claim, a claim you've yet to substantiate. Where does Gillard specify that his tier system for lightsaber combat is exclusively reliant on technical skill?

*Sigh* I don't have the nuclear firepower required to drive a point through your skull. But let's make an attempt at it.

Two guys are equal in skill. Equal. More or less at the same level. One of those guys, however, has demonstrated strength and speed feats that are leagues away from what the other level nine has achieved. Augmentation plays a very important role in lightsaber combat, which is basic knowledge to someone with at least average knowledge of the EU. The guy that is equal in skill/is much, much stronger+faster to the point where the other guy can barely even see him moving will logically win a duel. Is this too hard for you to comprehend? Is Lord Vader deserving of such respect that this logic is to be ignored?

@thesithmaster:

*Sigh* I don't have the nuclear firepower required to drive a point through your skull. But let's make an attempt at it.

Do you even have the firepower to make a solid point in the first place? :hmmm:

Two guys are equal in skill. Equal. More or less at the same level. One of those guys, however, has demonstrated strength and speed feats that are leagues away from what the other level nine has achieved. Augmentation plays a very important role in lightsaber combat, which is basic knowledge to someone with at least average knowledge of the EU. The guy that is equal in skill/is much, much stronger+faster to the point where the other guy can barely even see him moving will logically win a duel. Is this too hard for you to comprehend? Is Lord Vader deserving of such respect that this logic is to be ignored?

A fascinating assertion. Unfortunately an argument from ignorance(and no, it's not an insult, it's a term for a debating fallacy) by itself is insufficient to support baseless assertions. As Gillard never specified that his tier system was exclusive to lightsaber skill, but rather attributed the umbrella term of lightsaber combat to his scale, we must assume that his ranking applies to lightsaber combat in general.

Not that Anakin doesn't have sufficient feats given

A. he three-shotted a fisto level opponent in drallig while choking one someone else

B. his hammering of dooku when tapping into the anger he can tap into at will as of knightfall

Not to mention Anakin explicitly being stated as faster than yoda

@alextheboss:

Dooku is an 8

He is a high 8, nearing very high 8. Whooping his rear end quite thoroughly is a level nine showing.

and like you've been saying (or maybe it was the other guy?) Anakin's fighting style goes well against Dooku.

Yeah, Anakin does have a form advantage over Dooku, but people act like it's the only factor in Anakin's decisive victory over Dooku. It wasn't. You can't kick your opponent's ass just by having a form advantage over them. You need to be respectably more skilled than them too.

He also said mentally Anankin is behind Kenobi, which is one of the reasons he lost.

Normal Anakin is mentally behind Kenobi but that shouldn't make much of a difference. Of course, it did make a difference against moron Anakin who was an emotional wreck. But Anakin wasn't in his normal state.

I know, that just means that he knew Kenobi was close enough to Anakin where he would have a chance of victory.

Against hindered Anakin, yeah, Kenobi does have a good chance. Against normal Anakin or Knightfall Vader, he really doesn't no matter what Yoda thinks.

The OP says canon only.

Woops, just noticed that. Sorry for using a bit of Legends.

But from what I've seen from canon material this would be a good fight where imo Vos is the weak link.

Not really. From what I have heard, Dark Disciple overpowered Vos so much so that he is regarded as vastly more powerful than his Legends iteration- a Canon character being more powerful than their Legends counterpart is unheard of and might be a totally unique case. Given this is Rebels Maul we are dealing with, he does seem like the weak link.

I don't think Dooku could rag doll Rebel's Maul

In Canon, he might, because he ragdolled Kenobi fair and square. If we were talking composite, though, Dooku only ragdolled Kenobi with circumstances, which would lead me to think he couldn't ragdoll Maul.

and ROTS Kenobi should defeat Vos in a duel, so team 1 would win in that instance. But if Dooku goes up against Kenobi and rag dolls him they could team up on Maul and win.

Yeah, in Canon this assessment seems quite right. Though Vos does have a respectable chance of beating Kenobi in a duel.

I agree he wasn't at 100% but there is no evidence he was any weaker. Just that he couldn't fight to the best of his ability because his mind wasn't clear. I would say he should of at least been fighting at 80-90% efficiency.

He definitely wasn't fighting at maximum capacity given how it's very obvious that he was emotionally hindered, and of course the tier difference which requires at least a solid gap.

Being proficient in melee weapons means nothing to one of the best lightsaber duelists of the time. Even Savage Opress before any training would of killed all of those nightsisters besides Assaj.

Savage was a Nightbrother, and in Canon the Nightbrothers are extremely skilled warriors- Savage was quite clearly the best Nightbrother in his clan given how he actually challenged Ventress whereas his companions all got fodderized. And his strength increased as soon as he was transformed- he went from being beaten by Ventress in a somewhat decent fistfight to outright dominating the woman with a choke, leaving her helpless and letting her go out of his own free will.

Those Nightsisters were still decent warriors, and a severely hindered Dooku stalemating them when they had Ventress for back up is an impressive feat.

Movie comics and novels aren't canon. The only comics that are canon are ones that came out post Disney.

The old comics were reprinted and are being sold again which leads me to believe they are indeed Canon. If they were Legends the Legends banner would be right at the top of the cover (like in Thrawn Trilogy, Dark Empire) but it isn't. It seems as if the comics are canon.

Reasons?

Well, in Canon not so much but Yoda/Sidious are still the top lightsaber masters and the most powerful Jedi/Sith, so they'd be at least 9.2.

The new canon has just been pushing Vader as a beast, so I kind of highballed him.

Still, he really doesn't have anything that puts him above Dooku. His performance against Ben was great but honestly not good enough to put him above Dooku.

Ahsoka in her prime did really well against Vader

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/yousufkhan1212/blog/darth-vader-vs-ahsoka-tano-context-and-circumstanc/128875/

She got driven back with every freaking blow and was clearly strained while Vader wasn't having much of a hard time. She also had an edge due to being trained to fight beings much larger than herself, such as Vader.

There are also statements from the writers saying she is the top 3-4 jedi duelist of all time

lmao

Yoda, Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan are all head and shoulders above Ahsoka (Yoda's miles above her).

Tbh I'm not a big Ahsoka fan, but they are giving Filoni a lot of power and he likes to buff his characters and OT characters while liking to make Maul look like trash whenever he feels like it, lol.

Yeah, Ahsoka is Filoni's beloved pet, but Filoni hasn't done a good job of overpowering her, nor did he make a good job of making TCW Maul look like trash. Rebels Maul though...

While he was amped against Vader, ya he was probably above an 8, but I don't really see him always being on that level. He lacks experience.

Vader was conflicted, but that fight proved Luke could contend with Vader. Which puts Luke at least 8.1/8.2 level.

I think there is a source saying ep 1 Kenobi was a 6 and one saying he was a 7, which is why I said he was a high 6 to low 7.

In Canon, Gillard once said Kenobi was six or seven, then he said seven. Not sure. Probably very low 7. 7.4 is Legends TPM Kenobi who has a very nice accolade.

I don't know about that. He was pretty bad and was never in a real duel before. He may of had the power and reaction time of a 7, but I think a good six could possibly take him because of experience.

Canon ESB Luke should be very high six, but not quite seven. Legends ESB Luke should be seven though.

still not seeing why rots Kenobi>vos, in canon at least

Never remembered to tag, so here goes:

@kbroskywalker:

I'm not going to get into a KF Vader debate right now. I will address everything. I've been saying this for some time, yeah, but I've been having much less time than I expected. Believe me, sooner or later I will counter these points. In a very detailed manner. Just not now.

don't feel obliged bruh

@kbroskywalker: I don't care about Force User battles, no reason to tag me.

I forgot man. People forgetting to untag you seems to be something that happens a lot to you doesn't it?

@thesithmaster:

He is a high 8, nearing very high 8. Whooping his rear end quite thoroughly is a level nine showing.

Ya, after I think Anakin saw Obi-wan go down I think his focus brought him to a 9.

Yeah, Anakin does have a form advantage over Dooku, but people act like it's the only factor in Anakin's decisive victory over Dooku. It wasn't. You can't kick your opponent's ass just by having a form advantage over them. You need to be respectably more skilled than them too.

Yes, that's what I've been saying. Anakin is above Dooku, and Obi-wan did much better than Dooku, though his form went better against Anakin and he knew Anakin's fighting style better. That's why I have Obi-wan and Dooku even in terms of skill with a saber.

Normal Anakin is mentally behind Kenobi but that shouldn't make much of a difference. Of course, it did make a difference against moron Anakin who was an emotional wreck. But Anakin wasn't in his normal state.

Ya that's why I'm not claiming Obi-wan is a 9.

Not really. From what I have heard, Dark Disciple overpowered Vos so much so that he is regarded as vastly more powerful than his Legends iteration- a Canon character being more powerful than their Legends counterpart is unheard of and might be a totally unique case.

Ya well I think the author of the book probably favors Vos, but from what I've heard I think Vos needed a rage amp to fight with Dooku and would of been killed if Ventress didn't sacrifice herself or something along those lines.

Given this is Rebels Maul we are dealing with, he does seem like the weak link.

I think Rebels Maul is downplayed. He really only looks bad because of his duel with Kenobi and Kanan. Both of which were circumstantial. His performance against the inquisitors was good, and he seems stronger and more knowledgeable about the force than before. I would say his physicals went down a bit but his force power/knowledge went up. I think he would take a solid majority over Vos on an even playing field.

In Canon, he might, because he ragdolled Kenobi fair and square.

In Canon Maul was able to ragdoll Kenobi as well, though Kenobi had to be slighty off balance for him to do so. And Rebels Maul should be stronger in the force since then. I don't think Dooku could ragdoll him.

Though Vos does have a respectable chance of beating Kenobi in a duel.

What exactly did he do to be on that level? I have trouble believing Vos would last 30 seconds against the Anakin Kenobi fought.

Those Nightsisters were still decent warriors, and a severely hindered Dooku stalemating them when they had Ventress for back up is an impressive feat.

I agree. I just wouldn't say that is proof he is above ROTS Kenobi. Out of all of Dooku's feats, the only one I would say that would put him possibly above ROTS Kenobi was the duel in season 6 he had against both Anakin and Obi-wan.

Well, in Canon not so much but Yoda/Sidious are still the top lightsaber masters and the most powerful Jedi/Sith, so they'd be at least 9.2.

Agreed

Still, he really doesn't have anything that puts him above Dooku. His performance against Ben was great but honestly not good enough to put him above Dooku.

True. I just put him above because I personally feel the writers would too if they ever fought, just because he is so iconic. Lucas seemed to want Vader and Obi-wan to be weaker than the people from the prequels, but now it seems they are trying to make them stronger because "everyone likes the OT better".

She got driven back with every freaking blow and was clearly strained while Vader wasn't having much of a hard time. She also had an edge due to being trained to fight beings much larger than herself, such as Vader.

Ya, I know, that's why I had her solidly below Vader. I put Vader at 8.8 so I said she would be at 8.5. I could see her being as low as Ventress level at a low 8, but I don't think I would put her below that.

lmao

Yoda, Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan are all head and shoulders above Ahsoka (Yoda's miles above her).

I know, that just goes to show how bias these writers are, but since he said it, I think that means Ahsoka should at least be an 8.

nor did he make a good job of making TCW Maul look like trash. Rebels Maul though...

Ya I was talking about Rebels Maul.

Vader was conflicted, but that fight proved Luke could contend with Vader. Which puts Luke at least 8.1/8.2 level.

Those numbers are reasonable.

@kbroskywalker: Sadly..

Didn't Vos need a dark side rage amp just to contend with Dooku? I don't see Vos putting up a fight against Anakin like Obi-wan did. I also don't see him outdueling Grievous in 30 seconds.

@alextheboss: vos did not have a rage amp in his final fight vs dooku, not sure why people keep saying this.

The context is Vos has a stylistic edge and that dooku was injured, not seeing that as more favorable than Kenobi having Anakin backing him up

and vos did better

shame.

@kbroskywalker:

vos did not have a rage amp in his final fight vs dooku, not sure why people keep saying this.

I didn't read the book so I'm only going off of what I've seen people say.

The context is Vos has a stylistic edge and that dooku was injured,

How injured? In a straight up duel I think ROTS Kenobi is about equal to Dooku, so Kenobi would beat an injured Dooku as well imo.

not seeing that as more favorable than Kenobi having Anakin backing him up

Anakin would have everyone that isn't Yoda or Sidious backing up. Even though Anakin wasn't fighting at his best he still would of beat Dooku the same as before as long as he didn't get too cocky.

and vos did better

Than Kenobi against Dooku?

Dooku had to remove Kenobi via the force. If there was nothing to drop on Kenobi or if Kenobi was more prepared he may not of been able to take him out that way.

Team 2 should win here.

@kbroskywalker: Clarification, I mean named Force User characters in play. I'm fine with being tagged for the more mook types IE: Regular Jedi Knight, Inquisitors(Legends), Dark Jedi/Adepts, Prophets, that sort.

t

Sweet!

I will keep this in mind

@alextheboss:

Anakin would have everyone that isn't Yoda or Sidious backing up. Even though Anakin wasn't fighting at his best he still would of beat Dooku the same as before as long as he didn't get too cocky.

Right, which is why Kenobi having him as back up is hepful

Dooku had to remove Kenobi via the force. If there was nothing to drop on Kenobi or if Kenobi was more prepared he may not of been able to take him out that way.

Nah, even then, Dooku was forcing Kenobi's blade to clash with Anakin's and Dooku, it's clear he was better tbh