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#1 Edited by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1: Canon only

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#2 Edited by Kilius (1569 posts) - - Show Bio

I presume you're still under the impression that Rebels Maul is the prime Maul. I honestly don't know where Rebels Maul stacks on the power scale, but Dooku's still superior to ROTS Kenobi and should at least be equal to Maul. Vos likewise, while at a disadvantage against Kenobi's Soresu, is capable of contending with Maul, so overall team 2 wins 8/10.

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#3 Posted by decaf_wizard (16835 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku beats either mid diff. Vos can hold off the other

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#4 Posted by echostarlord117 (5576 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2

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#5 Posted by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 already wins in the other battle. Why replace TCW Maul for his vast inferior? This is lop-sided. Team 2 streamrolls.

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#6 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, lol at Rebels Maul being his former self's "vast inferior". You people certainly change your opinions as quickly and as circumstantially as a chameleon changes colors.

I remember not long ago, before the Tatooine battle that is, that you guys were pushing hard for Rebels Maul being superior to Ahsoka based on the Starwars.com quote, and Ahsoka as we know can challenge Vader himself. Also pushing hard for Rebels Maul to be superior to TCW Maul. Seems like after the loss to Ben Kenobi, no credit whatsoever to him, you guys started pushing the opinion that Maul is vastly inferior to TCW Maul?

The reality is, Rebels Recon hints that far from being vastly inferior, Rebels Maul is actually superior to TCW Maul. There is no other indication of a comparison between them from an official source( as far as I know), and News+Blog pages on Starwars.com also have Rebels Maul as superior to TCW Maul.

I of course have refrained from posting my opinions on Rebels Maul, because his placement is murky, and even I am not sure that he is indeed above his TCW self, but him being "vastly" inferior to his TCW self, is nothing but platinum level BS, as ridiculous and nonsensical as the sun suddenly turning green.

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#7 Posted by deactivated-59c0eef934dfe (918 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku could very well solo. The addition of Vos makes this pretty straightforward.

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#8 Posted by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku solos , vos solos

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#9 Posted by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio
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#10 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96

Rebels Maul>TCW Maul, by Filoni and Rebels Recon, both of which has vastly more authority than Witwer, for sure.

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#11 Posted by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

Filoni's quote contradicts massively ROTS. Guys better than old maul and Ben fought for more time.

Rebels Maul isn't necessarily > ahsoka. The quote used to say that is only the opinion of the characters. Opinions =\= truth. And even if maul is equal / slightly superior to ahsoka, ahsoka only contended with the crappiest version of Vader, a inferior version of anh Vader, who lost to TPM maul.

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#12 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku could very well solo. The addition of Vos makes this pretty straightforward.

dooku soling two people in vader's general range is laughable as fck

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#13 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96

Are you serious?

a inferior version of anh Vader, who lost to TPM maul.

Leland Chee objectively confirmed that it wasn't the real Maul. It was just an illusion. Nothing more. Stop bringing up this "debunked to oblivion" incident again.

Not to mention the fact that Vader is simply better than Maul, as was stated by the creators. Maul was originally supposed to die to Vader on Malachor but they didn't do that fight because there wouldn't be any point in it. Vader and Maul don't have any history between them.

Filoni's quote contradicts massively ROTS. Guys better than old maul and Ben fought for more time.

Did you even bother to read or see the whole interview?

It was a samurai style duel. It was meant to be short for that very reason only. The real fight was playing out in their heads during the long staring contest which lasted for tens of seconds, where they were reaching out into the force to predict each other's moves. The 3 move duel was just the culmination of the whole thing.

There is a perfectly good reason why Maul lost to Ben that hard, which wasn't a stomp because the fighting was more than just the clash of lightsabers, it was also the reaching into the force for predicting the duel itself. None of the other characters have done that before. Ben was just decisively better than Maul and more powerful, which is why he was able to make the most use of the whole thing, and end it quickly when it mattered most, i.e. in the actual clash of lightsabers. That doesn't mean that there is a huge gap between Ben and Maul, just that there is a decisive one.

And after SoD till Rebels, Ben's growth was more than Maul's anyways.

And Filoni's authority on this duel is what counts. As does Rebels Recon.

Rebels Maul isn't necessarily > ahsoka. The quote used to say that is only the opinion of the characters. Opinions =\= truth.

It wasn't Kanan's opinion, lol. How on earth will he form an opinion on how powerful Maul is when he just met him?

It was the quote itself. The quote comments on what Kanan did, and it supplies its own input on whether it was logical or not. Not Kanan's opinion.

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#14 Posted by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Being in SWR vader general range? You mean the guy who while going all out wasn't able to stomp Ezra and kanan, and the guy who is a inferior version of the guy who lost to TPM Maul? Being in the range, not even equal, of this guys means very little

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#15 Edited by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: @lordofthelight:the sw.com quoteis bunk because it doesn't actually say maul>ahsoka, just that maul is the best to protect ezra. And it can be attributed to the nexus

Ahsoka is authoritatively superior per feloni and managed to send maul flaling backwards and briefly drive him back in their fight,

There is no argument for Maul>Ahsoka

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#16 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

A huge lol at Vader going all out to beat Ezra and Kanan.

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#17 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

Being in SWR vader general range? You mean the guy who while going all out wasn't able to stomp Ezra and kanan, and the guy who is a inferior version of the guy who lost to TPM Maul? Being in the range, not even equal, of this guys means very little

You do realize there's a problem with fighting a version of maul resurrected from the dead when maul didn't actually die?

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#18 Posted by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/battle-misconceptions-darth-maul-vs-darth-vader-1877498/

This thread will provide an answer for your

objections.

About Ben and maul, it will be. In legends Ben is post prime, though.

The quote comments on what kanan did, true, and kanan did what he did basing himself on his opinion. Why did he do so, if not basing himself on his opinion?

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#19 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/battle-misconceptions-darth-maul-vs-darth-vader-1877498/

This thread will provide an answer for your

objections.

About Ben and maul, it will be. In legends Ben is post prime, though.

The quote comments on what kanan did, true, and kanan did what he did basing himself on his opinion. Why did he do so, if not basing himself on his opinion?

read the comments bro, thread's been debunked, that isn't fckn canon

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#20 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/battle-misconceptions-darth-maul-vs-darth-vader-1877498/

This thread will provide an answer for your

objections.

About Ben and maul, it will be. In legends Ben is post prime, though.

The quote comments on what kanan did, true, and kanan did what he did basing himself on his opinion. Why did he do so, if not basing himself on his opinion?

the quote says maul can best protect ezra, not that he's the strongest

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#21 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96

Even if you choose to accept that fan-fiction as true( in which case, Old Wounds is also true since it belongs in the same series), the fact is that Leland Chee has confirmed that that Maul wasn't the real Maul.

It was just an illusion of Maul. Nothing more.

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#22 Posted by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

People have tried to use that to prove Maul might have not been real. But if it was all an illusion in Vader's mind, only Vader would think it was real. If so, then how did that moon become famous throughout the entire galaxy solely because of Vader vs Maul?

Kalakar Six: A moon reputed to be the site of a climatic confrontation between Darth Vader and a resurrected Darth Maul.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Answer: because the fight was real.

And Vader suffered some injuries from the fight. How can an illusion wound a real guy?

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#23 Edited by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

It is canon, the comments referred to the thread when it wasn't still updated:

An argument I was previously unaware of- some users have tried a super long stretch, claiming the comic was non-canon to Legends. Apparently due to a statement from Leland Chee. That statement, though, is from 2005. In 2008, the fight is referenced in a Legends sourcebook:

Kalakar Six: A moon reputed to be the site of a climatic confrontation between Darth Vader and a resurrected Darth Maul.

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Thus making it Legends. Chee's statement was indeed true, but it was retconned in 2008 by a Legends sourcebook, written by Pablo Hidalgo himself. And it was retconned by Chee himself. Chee's recent statement>Chee's old statement given he has clearly changed his stance on the matter.

''Resurrection was selected as one of Star Wars Insider 83's 20 Most Memorable Moments of the Expanded Universe, with Leland Chee confirming its canonicity on his blog.''

Source : http://web.archive.org/web/20120213195410/http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/22/comments

And it is canon to the EU so much so that it was put into the top twenty of the EU's most memorable moments, thus cementing its position on the EU. Chee stated it was non-canon- Hidalgo, however, retconned it, and Chee himself disagreed with his old statement.

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#24 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96:

2008, well before it turns out Maul never actually died rendereing the premise of the comic a falsehood

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#25 Posted by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio
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#26 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96

People have tried to use that to prove Maul might have not been real. But if it was all an illusion in Vader's mind, only Vader would think it was real. If so, then how did that moon become famous throughout the entire galaxy solely because of Vader vs Maul?

It wasn't famous throughout the galaxy, lol. Are you crazy? People barely even knew and likely didn't know the emperor or any other force user or any force user at all existed in the galaxy. Forget them, people barely even knew Vader.

And people haven't said it. Leland Chee, who has the highest authority in SW material currently has said it. His statement>>>>>>>>>any evidence there is for absolutely any kind of credit to Maul from this duel.

There are various forms of illusion. Some can harm. Surely I don't need to remind you that.

And Vader suffered some injuries from the fight. How can an illusion wound a real guy?

That's a poor argument. Vader would have imagined his wounds as well. Are you simple enough to believe that such a powerful illusion can't affect his mind at all to make him imagine such stuff? Or did you think that "illusion=hologram"?

We all know how much you resent Vader so stop this showmanship and accept the simple "fact" that Maul doesn't get a shred of credit from this at all.

Lastly, I have said it many times and I am saying it again, Chee said, unquestionably and irrevocably that it wasn't the real Maul. So whatever you may want to think of it as, whatever kind of illusion it was, it has absolutely no connection to any established version of Maul.

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#27 Edited by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

The complete Star Wars encyclopedia stated that moon was reputed the place where maul and Vader fought! Then, that moon was reputed so. Doesn't matter from how many people.

Chee retconned his statement! Read the post I addressed to kybro

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#28 Posted by Greysentinel365 (5998 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96: @lordofthelight:

That's a poor argument. Vader would have imagined his wounds as well. You aren't simple enough to believe that such a powerful illusion can't affect his mind at all to make him imagine such stuff?

Not to mention Vader's wounds disappear the moment the Emperor is satisfied with his win.

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#29 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

By the time of ANH Maul is dead even now.

the comic's premise is based on maul dying in tpm, it's outdated

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#30 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96

I don't care. He said it in the same link that it wasn't the real Maul.

Are you being thick on purpose, or is it that you can't read or are you just plain ignoring what I said? Have I been typing the exact same post over and over for you to repeat the exact same thing again and again which has no connection to what I was saying?

If I hear another argument about it's canonicity, I won't reply. I made it clear that I won't get into such circular debates, but the fact that I am pushing is that it doesn't matter anyway.

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#31 Edited by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

What you don't care? The fact chee retconned his previous statements and confirmed it is canon, or the fact the complete Star Wars encyclopedia confirmed the fight was real?

It wasn't the real maul simple cause it was a clone. A clone that isn't the real maul, cause the real is dead, but a clone who has his same skills.

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#32 Posted by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

The comic premise bases on Maul dying. Doesn't matter when.

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#33 Edited by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

By the time of ANH Maul is dead even now.

bro, the comic's premise is tpm maul was resurrected, how can you resurrect what never died?

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#34 Posted by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker:

But he died in rebels !!! Rebels is before that comic , that is settled one or two months before anh!!

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#35 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96

It was an illusion. The real body was completely dissolved, so there is no way that it could have been a clone. Besides, these are force sorcerers not cloning technicians, lol.

And rebels has absolutely no connection to this. What kind of horrible arguments are you making? This follows the old continuity where Maul was destroyed and dissolved in Theed. There is no need to link this to actual canon, when even the duel you are mentioning is non-canon in Legends.

Besides, as Grey has said, his wounds disappeared immediately when the emperor was satisfied. That is the lynchpin in confirming the fact that it was indeed a illusion.

Give up this desperate argument. You have no way to prove your point. Any argument you make, has a counter.

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#36 Posted by deactivated-59c0eef934dfe (918 posts) - - Show Bio

@kbroskywalker: he's already beaten Kenobi in the past, and held out well against Maul's superior in Anakin. If he takes out Kenobi fast enough, he's left with Maul, who he will defeat.

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#37 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@kiadisandwich: he beat a pre-prime Kenobi before getting beat by anakin

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#38 Edited by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

The real body was dissolved? When? Maybe I forgot something. The comic premise is simply that maul was dead. Doesn't matter how and when. His death in rebels is good how the one in TPM. The complete Star Wars encyclopedia is an authority, however.

And Vader's injuries were light, in the comic we cannot see properly if they disappeared or not.

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#39 Edited by deactivated-5a98875cd0f94 (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

Some arguments in this thread are pathetic denials and they're annyoing me. Let's demolish them.

Rebels Maul is vastly inferior to his TCW self. Feats prove this. Granted, Rebels Maul might not have had so many opportunities, but whether he could have performed them or not is speculation. Based on evidence, and in this forum we need to go by evidence- not speculation- SoD Maul>>SWR Maul. And Maul+Kenobi had "growth" because they have had multiple prolonged fights in the past and thus have no need for another prolonged fight. Nowhere is it remotely hinted Maul is in his prime unless a bunch of statements are twisted.

And yeah, Rebels Maul is better than Ahsoka. Ahsoka, who got beaten pretty easily by Rebels Vader. I'm talking about Rebels Vader. Who has done nothing to suggest he can last more than one minute and a half against SoD Maul. Actually, he has a pathetic low showing that puts him well below SoD Maul. Yeah, it's Vader vs Ezra and Kanan, where- sorry to make you all face the cold truth- Vader was canonically going full out.

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Unless, of course, people ignore these statements just because they can't stand the iconic Vader having a pathetic low showing. But Starwars.com is canon, baseless denials notwithstanding.

And the clone Maul Vader fought wasn't an illusion. Stop making crap up to lowball Maul.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/battle-misconceptions-darth-maul-vs-darth-vader-1877498/

Vader had his injuries right after the fight finished, which matters more. The Emperor could have easily used something called Force Heal, given all Force abilities, Light or Dark, are known to the Emperor.

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#40 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96

Maul's body was dissolved on Theed, which is the continuity that the comic follows.

Don't bring Rebels into this. That is actual canon whereas this fight isn't canon at all.

I mean, even the fight indicates this. Maul makes a reference to slaying Qui Gon when Vader says that Obi Wan slew Maul. Obviously Anakin knows Maul survived in TCW, so the continuity of this fight is the old continuity, before TCW.

And there Maul's body was completely destroyed. So yes, this was an illusion.

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#41 Posted by kbroskywalker (13404 posts) - - Show Bio

@thesithmaster:

And Maul+Kenobi had "growth" because they have had multiple prolonged fights in the past and thus have no need for another prolonged fight. Nowhere is it remotely hinted Maul is in his prime unless a bunch of statements are twisted.

When you're going to try and counter something, perhaps counter the argument? As I've repeated for the millionth time, the "growth" isn't needed:

Even if you want to interpret growth to not refer to Kenobi's skill as duelist(even though the context is clearly about his ability as a combatant), Him being "very good" swordsman as a reason for the shorter fight compared to his and Maul's longer "prolonged" fights in TCW clearly indicates growth.

To demonstrate what I mean:

"The actual duel is very short, how did you come to the conclusion it had to come this way?...(feloni) If you talk to a lot of people who sword fight, they'll tell you people who are very good don't have long fights. So that scene, its a homage to the 7th samurai. I think on one level people would be excited to see another prolonged lightsaber fight."

In addition to making clear what "growth" refers to, this alone indicates that Kenobi grew as a duelist back from when they had "prolonged lightsaber duels". So there's no getting around this, Kenobi, like Maul, is a better swordsman.

There's nothing vague here, Kenobi's a "very good" fighter compared to his prior incarnations, and growth is clearly referring to combative ability

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#42 Posted by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

But who says maul's body was dissolved on theed, if he really died? He survived in the new canon, nothing suggest his body was destroyed in the old canon. However, Vader could know that Ben killed Maul in SWR by that time

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#43 Posted by Greysentinel365 (5998 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm talking about Rebels Vader. Who has done nothing to suggest he can last more than one minute and a half against SoD Maul.

Lol. Vader feats in Lords of the Sith (which takes place years before Rebels)blow Mauls out of the water. If Vader indeed was having trouble with Kanan and Ezra Maul would have even more trouble.

You've done nothing but prove your own ignorance.

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#44 Posted by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

Lastly, to put these pathetic and desperate attempts at rest once and for all:

The Vader vs. Maul brawl is canon? It's not quite the real Darth Maul. Hence the "or something." Who knows, it could have been a vision like Luke confronting Vader on Dagobah or just some sort of Sith illusion. Or a clone. Nothing's been determined as to what we are actually seeing, just that Vader and Maul have a pretty cool battle.

Credit: http://web.archive.org/web/20120213195410/http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/22/comments

So, yes. I don't know exactly how much of brainpower is needed to comprehend the simple and basic fact that

It........Wasn't........The........Real........Maul.

That's it. There is nothing more to be had after that.

And there is the fact that Vader's helmet looks like this:

No Caption Provided

after the fight and like this shortly before:

No Caption Provided

So yes, I do feel for the desperate "grasping at straws" suggestion that force healing was involved. It is like the lightsaber slashes on the metal didn't even exist.

It was a Sith illusion. Designed to test Vader.

There is nothing at all linking the illusion Maul to any of the real Maul's. To copy Greysentinel365's actual arguments:

The likelihood of it being an illusion is actually pretty high. Think about it:

1. Bringing someone completely back from nothing is unprecedented and unreplicated in all of SW (remember that in this continuity Maul was melted after he was bisected)

2. Sidious conveniently showed up when Vader won. Sidious has made it frequently known that he wishes to test Vader. Making it all the more likely that it was his acolytes setting it up as a test.

3. Look at how Vader won. Look at what Maul is saying to him. He is urging him to refine his hate and the moment Vader finds it, he wins.

And again, a huge lol at the suggestion that Rebels Maul is vastly inferior to TCW Maul. Having tunnel vision and a basic incapability to accept and digest some certain simple facts is lacking in some, who clearly are so desperate they will make huge arguments out of simple sentences that are clear as day to a primary school kid simply because they can't stand to face the fact that their favorite may indeed be a punching bag.

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#45 Edited by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

Your own quote says that maul could have been even a clone, and it attests that we saw a cool battle between Vader and maul. The purpose of that comic was to make a Vader vs maul battle. And that battle clearly depicted who was better.

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#46 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

@richard96

You can't join this to new canon. This comic was based on the continuity that Maul was indeed destroyed in Theed.

And Vader wouldn't have known, because Obi Wan buried Maul's body on Tatooine. Vader doesn't even know that Obi Wan lives till now. Not to mention that Vader's path didn't even cross once with Maul's, so I doubt if he even knew what happened to Maul after the clone wars. And here you are making such a ridiculous assertion that Vader found out about Maul who was killed on Tatooine?

Just think. Stop hating Vader for a second( which we all know you do) and just think about how nonsensical your arguments are.

The reference was clearly to TPM when Maul made a reference to slaying, not to Rebels, because there is absolutely no intersection between these continuities at all.

You are doing some serious mental gymnastics but give it up. Are you honestly even bringing Rebels in this? Do you have absolutely no understanding of how continuities work? Do you not understand that this is a non-canon duel? Even if you are taking this under the legends banner, this holds lesser weight than even stuff like ToTJ which has absolutely no relation to established canon.

There is literally no relation to this and Disney canon. This is the same continuity where Maul was destroyed, not the continuity where he was resurrected.

It couldn't have been a clone because Maul's body was utterly destroyed in a melting pit. And the purpose of this "cool" battle was to test Vader. Not to demonstrate who was superior.

And it was an illusion, in case you didn't notice, Vader's helmet and suit is back to new after the fight is over when they have gaping holes in them due to lightsaber slashes. It was an illusion because all of the slashes made on the helmet were an illusion as well. For the reader's benefit.

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#47 Edited by LordOfTheLight (2585 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, and lol at those scans which are somehow supposed to prove that Vader was going all out. Nothing in them states that Vader couldn't have been toying with them. I mean, they even state that Vader was delivering a monologue while "slowly" bringing Ezra's lightsaber to his throat. That in of itself is an indication that he was toying with them. If even that isn't, I don't know what is.

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#48 Posted by SoImMe (299 posts) - - Show Bio

Either from team 2 effortlessly takes down Maul and Kenobi gets lolstomped

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#49 Edited by Richard96 (5638 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofthelight:

But where was it stated that maul's body was destroyed on theed? Ok, the two continuities are divided cause Vader claimed Obi slew maul, but does it matter? Chee confirmed it was in the legends canon. The complete Star Wars encyclopedia confirmed it wasn't an illusion. But there is the Vader's helmet problem. Well, maybe it was an illusion. But does it matter? The writers purpose was to do a TPM maul vs ANH Vader battle , and that was the result

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#50 Posted by deactivated-5a20a68641bc7 (1969 posts) - - Show Bio

Dooku stands a reasonable chance of soloing. With Vos he has a solid majority.